can we not make this an OMGUS battle? it's possible the scumteam are sitting back while letting town eat itself alive.
first of all, lol coming from you
Second, what's your theory for that team?
I scumread those who jumped on me after claiming, since going after a PR when there are so many who haven't claimed is really scummy. I mentioned that before lel.. using my claim to fish, more or less.
my theory is..they're just pushing all the obvious (surface) scumreads here and there, and let the others go in for the kill. for this, I would say Grapefruit - who pushed my claim - and Jenna - who tried to push Shinichi. Megiddo especially hasn't posted much, so he could be the reserve for endgame.
I think that is pretty muddied by how you went about claiming.
Like, I thought you were town all along until the claim amd surrounding fiasco.
Basically, why wouldn't other townies jump on you? I think it was reasonable.
well, that's because I hate claiming. I wouldn't be claiming if I can, for some revenge on that week of interrogation, hold town hostage lol. I have my selfish moments. then again, at least it took a week of pressure for me to throw a tantrum, compared to LnG who flamed and hated after just one moment of being the lead train. maybe I have more patience than most, and cannot imagine the limitations a normal person can take.
yes I will admit it, I lashed out after a week of defending myself. is that wrong? I actually put up with a week of bull*****, and that is very generous already. moreover, I was forced to claim when I only softclaimed along with saying I hate claims. I have the right to be frustrated and give town, scum included, a taste of their own medicine. (so yeah, I'm a *****.) what you think of me is not what the collective town thinks of me.
of course. scum just has to pressure and point out some scummy things, and it is warranted. just because someone is scummy doesn't mean they're scum, it just means their defense is weak. you need to look beyond the weak defenses into the motives of both sides.
and that is my problem with this town.. they cannot see beyond what the scumteam gives them, on a golden platter.
quote ~ "if everything is thinking the same thing, then someone isn't thinking."
again, if someone is scummy it doesn't mean they are scum. it just means the scumteam knows how to push buttons. this is just a game and there is no right or wrong way to play it. I really detest that mindset.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
can we not make this an OMGUS battle? it's possible the scumteam are sitting back while letting town eat itself alive.
first of all, lol coming from you
Second, what's your theory for that team?
I scumread those who jumped on me after claiming, since going after a PR when there are so many who haven't claimed is really scummy. I mentioned that before lel.. using my claim to fish, more or less.
my theory is..they're just pushing all the obvious (surface) scumreads here and there, and let the others go in for the kill. for this, I would say Grapefruit - who pushed my claim - and Jenna - who tried to push Shinichi. Megiddo especially hasn't posted much, so he could be the reserve for endgame.
I think that is pretty muddied by how you went about claiming.
Like, I thought you were town all along until the claim amd surrounding fiasco.
Basically, why wouldn't other townies jump on you? I think it was reasonable.
well, that's because I hate claiming. I wouldn't be claiming if I can, for some revenge on that week of interrogation, hold town hostage lol. I have my selfish moments. then again, at least it took a week of pressure for me to throw a tantrum, compared to LnG who flamed and hated after just one moment of being the lead train. maybe I have more patience than most, and cannot imagine the limitations a normal person can take.
yes I will admit it, I lashed out after a week of defending myself. is that wrong? I actually put up with a week of bull*****, and that is very generous already. moreover, I was forced to claim when I only softclaimed along with saying I hate claims. I have the right to be frustrated and give town, scum included, a taste of their own medicine. (so yeah, I'm a *****.) what you think of me is not what the collective town thinks of me.
of course. scum just has to pressure and point out some scummy things, and it is warranted. just because someone is scummy doesn't mean they're scum, it just means their defense is weak. you need to look beyond the weak defenses into the motives of both sides.
I'm concerned about the degree of self-victimization here. From experienced town, this looks beyond bizarre. From inexperienced or unfamiliar town, there's still a lot of this spread throughout Dawning's posts. From experienced scum, this could be a manipulative ploy. From inexperienced/unfamiliar scum, this could be flailing. I think a number of people here are inclined to believe that last possibility. I'm still uncertain between the latter three.
@Iso
Normally I wouldnt believe that, but since everyone has been screwing up with their role pms im more inclined to believe it. but compared to not understanding how your role works, and thinking your the vigi when your really not, is different, tbh im surprised everyone just allowed to claim vigi and then take it back... lol
Not the first time I've completely botched reading the rules, my role PM, or both.
??? was it not Iso that claimed he was vigi, and then placed his vote on dawn? and even if by some large misinterpretation of information I got the name wrong, why does this constitute a vote on me?
Iso retracted the claim immediately! This has been said multiple times, including in the og post of this quote chain! I have trouble believing that you still missed that.
ok so obviously i didnt recall that, so if everyone else knew that, how would my push even go through? did you even think of that?
HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY NOT REMEMBER THAT
uhhm I forgot? whats worse, someone who forgets, or someone who doesnt read their pm before claiming someone is scum for claiming your role. Either way I get it, I was wrong...
I'm just sayin', there was a huge discussion about it, and you even commented immediately after my "oops" post.
@Iso, sure, on the surface my ability is to catch scum/scum lying. But that requires a lot of hoops to jump through. First, scum have to be paired (or a townie that as subsequently the NK). Then I have to target a person who is lying. Third, they have to out that info in the thread.
I choose to believe that my role is not this useless.
Uhh? Scum can lie about A/B after being paired with scum, too.
@Iso, sure, on the surface my ability is to catch scum/scum lying. But that requires a lot of hoops to jump through. First, scum have to be paired (or a townie that as subsequently the NK). Then I have to target a person who is lying. Third, they have to out that info in the thread.
I choose to believe that my role is not this useless.
I think you're a sort of vanilla with the possibility to be useful.
Also now that I see Axel's list I know I'm not 100% crazy.
... if i remembered that then why would I keep bringing up that there couldnt be two vigilantes...
Iso wanted to CC but retracted with "just kidding" and we had a debate over how hypocritical his actions were. his reactions in that argument felt town to me.
@tom: I was the one who said that about Jenna, and I thought it made her more likely to be scum. Can you show me what you mean about Grapefruit RE: LW?
so why does that make her scum?
and is that a real question about grape/lw?
It makes her more likely to be scum because being perpetually in catch-up mode doesn't give us anything genuine or current to gauge her alignment off of. It's easy to generate "genuine" reactions to things that have already happened, when she doesn't have to keep up and react in realtime.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm concerned about the degree of self-victimization here. From experienced town, this looks beyond bizarre. From inexperienced or unfamiliar town, there's still a lot of this spread throughout Dawning's posts. From experienced scum, this could be a manipulative ploy. From inexperienced/unfamiliar scum, this could be flailing. I think a number of people here are inclined to believe that last possibility. I'm still uncertain between the latter three.
this is just an explanation for my actions. take it as you will. I've never had the need to victimize myself, and don't plan to stoop to that level anytime soon. I'm more of a powerwolfer, not someone who begs and grovels. lmao
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@dawn: We're a community that thrives on heavy analysis and information sorting. When somebody provides misinformation, it's a disservice to the town, because then the town has to scrutinize the accuracy of that information as well as question the credibility of the source in future instances of information. When somebody behaves the way that you have behaved all game, we have to take anything you say with a grain of salt because you've proven yourself to be so unable to provide a straight answer. It makes the game more difficult to solve, and when the issue is addressable through your own actions/playstyle, it causes town players to be resentful of your actions, because it detrimentally affects their ability to solve the game. Whenever somebody runs a gambit or botches their claim 5 times in a row, until that player proves their trustworthiness. Given our exchange, I have a fair more amount of trust in you than the average player in this game, which is why I hope you can take my word for it that the way you have been playing is detrimental to the town, which is why people have been so up-in-arms about locking you into your claim - you've proven to be a source of misinformation and drawn a lot of attention to yourself as a result of it, which is why people are clamoring for your head right now. Do you understand?
understand that. those I played with tend to suspect me being deliberate about my actions.
explanation:
nobody is familiar with my playstyle and thinks pressuring me will help. no it doesn't, it backfires more than not. another thing, the basis for scumreading me was just...looking for pressure! in what way have I been detrimental to town? I only reacted to the pressure. are my posts still annoying? I hope not.
another thing, I resorted to claiming since I wanted to keep my role alive since it is very helpful to town, and there was enough speculation to begin outing claims (mainly BP talk). I'm generally against claiming and never see the point, but I'm PR this time. there was a time I refused to claim cop, and was lynched D1, but the setup was a semi-reveal - it was better for me to not mention my role. every other time, I have been VT and never found claiming a good option. regardless of VT or PR, it is never a good thing to claim. insisting for someone to claim, while not being familiar with their playstyle, is more scummy than not - and I acted under than presumption, which may come off as OMGUS.
now...
it shouldn't matter if someone's actions are detrimental to town, they're still town. I've dealt with such players before, and ended up having to sort my own team out more than the enemy team. if you think being anti-town is justification enough to lynch someone, it is anti-game. on the other site, there is a player with this mindset (with good intentions), but I really detest that way of thinking and had to prove my point more than once. it is elitist. I've seen policy lynches pulled on players who were anti-town by playstyle, and they rarely join in new games because of it. please don't ruin it for me. thanks.
if you have questions about my playstyle or actions, please ask. you shouldn't, in any way, attack someone over personal feelings and the desire to dictate how they should play.
Guess Ill step in here because this post kinda bothered me a little
-Your play style does not matter nor should it ever effect how people view you in this specific ongoing game. If you want any of the people who odn't know you to town read you must give them a reason, if you want to play an anti town way then expect to be scum read. I willingly play the way I do even knowing I get scum read but I don't expect people to let me go because of it. Sure I talk like I expect it but if anyone did I just think they were scummy lol. Claiming should always be done when your on the point of being lynched, its up to the playerbase to trust the claim or not but nonetheless it hurts town not claiming if your about tog et lynched. Vt are confirmed to exist in games that don't have the rolemadness tag so i dont find anything off base about the claim unless you got like 6 people claiming it. Too assume the norm only effects you when a person knows your playstle is not fair, to expect anyone to treat you differently based on a play style isnt fair, too choose to treat a person differently is fine but too assume the whole palyerbase should do that is wrong.
-It should matter, because right now everyone here is guilty till proven innocent which can't happen till a flip or some kind of informative role steps forward on day 2 if one exists. If your refering to grrr thats wrong to think we have to treat you the same way he is treated due to his play style hes hard to read but hes never really been anti town, he also does not throw his role in our faces like ur doing right now lol. Policy lynch will not happen in a 2 week phase, these players have plenty of reason to vote you.
No one is dictating how you should play, your just expecting us to be ok with how your playing which honestly both are wrong in a way. End of story if 5 people ask you to full claim an you procede not to expect to be scum read end of story lmfao.
@dawn: We're a community that thrives on heavy analysis and information sorting. When somebody provides misinformation, it's a disservice to the town, because then the town has to scrutinize the accuracy of that information as well as question the credibility of the source in future instances of information. When somebody behaves the way that you have behaved all game, we have to take anything you say with a grain of salt because you've proven yourself to be so unable to provide a straight answer. It makes the game more difficult to solve, and when the issue is addressable through your own actions/playstyle, it causes town players to be resentful of your actions, because it detrimentally affects their ability to solve the game. Whenever somebody runs a gambit or botches their claim 5 times in a row, until that player proves their trustworthiness. Given our exchange, I have a fair more amount of trust in you than the average player in this game, which is why I hope you can take my word for it that the way you have been playing is detrimental to the town, which is why people have been so up-in-arms about locking you into your claim - you've proven to be a source of misinformation and drawn a lot of attention to yourself as a result of it, which is why people are clamoring for your head right now. Do you understand?
understand that. those I played with tend to suspect me being deliberate about my actions.
explanation:
nobody is familiar with my playstyle and thinks pressuring me will help. no it doesn't, it backfires more than not. another thing, the basis for scumreading me was just...looking for pressure! in what way have I been detrimental to town? I only reacted to the pressure. are my posts still annoying? I hope not.
another thing, I resorted to claiming since I wanted to keep my role alive since it is very helpful to town, and there was enough speculation to begin outing claims (mainly BP talk). I'm generally against claiming and never see the point, but I'm PR this time. there was a time I refused to claim cop, and was lynched D1, but the setup was a semi-reveal - it was better for me to not mention my role. every other time, I have been VT and never found claiming a good option. regardless of VT or PR, it is never a good thing to claim. insisting for someone to claim, while not being familiar with their playstyle, is more scummy than not - and I acted under than presumption, which may come off as OMGUS.
now...
it shouldn't matter if someone's actions are detrimental to town, they're still town. I've dealt with such players before, and ended up having to sort my own team out more than the enemy team. if you think being anti-town is justification enough to lynch someone, it is anti-game. on the other site, there is a player with this mindset (with good intentions), but I really detest that way of thinking and had to prove my point more than once. it is elitist. I've seen policy lynches pulled on players who were anti-town by playstyle, and they rarely join in new games because of it. please don't ruin it for me. thanks.
if you have questions about my playstyle or actions, please ask. you shouldn't, in any way, attack someone over personal feelings and the desire to dictate how they should play.
Guess Ill step in here because this post kinda bothered me a little
-Your play style does not matter nor should it ever effect how people view you in this specific ongoing game. If you want any of the people who odn't know you to town read you must give them a reason, if you want to play an anti town way then expect to be scum read. I willingly play the way I do even knowing I get scum read but I don't expect people to let me go because of it. Sure I talk like I expect it but if anyone did I just think they were scummy lol. Claiming should always be done when your on the point of being lynched, its up to the playerbase to trust the claim or not but nonetheless it hurts town not claiming if your about tog et lynched. Vt are confirmed to exist in games that don't have the rolemadness tag so i dont find anything off base about the claim unless you got like 6 people claiming it. Too assume the norm only effects you when a person knows your playstle is not fair, to expect anyone to treat you differently based on a play style isnt fair, too choose to treat a person differently is fine but too assume the whole palyerbase should do that is wrong.
-It should matter, because right now everyone here is guilty till proven innocent which can't happen till a flip or some kind of informative role steps forward on day 2 if one exists. If your refering to grrr thats wrong to think we have to treat you the same way he is treated due to his play style hes hard to read but hes never really been anti town, he also does not throw his role in our faces like ur doing right now lol. Policy lynch will not happen in a 2 week phase, these players have plenty of reason to vote you.
No one is dictating how you should play, your just expecting us to be ok with how your playing which honestly both are wrong in a way. End of story if 5 people ask you to full claim an you procede not to expect to be scum read end of story lmfao.
I don't care about what you say anymore~ question me properly or you're just a gamethrower in my book.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
[@Last] Its the way shes implying she cant be lynched due to her role being so powerful.
something interesting here. you must be misunderstanding something, I never implied I can't be lynched. already foregone the possible usage of my role when I claimed, and I've already mentioned that few times - possible jinx, roleblocking, or lynch.
I am not salty about a previous game or else I would have been pushing you from game start. My read may be biased cause I find the way your playing really annoying and unfair for town, like how your assuming your claim alone should be reaosn enough for no one to touch you.
you've been so adamant at discrediting me that..it isn't even normal anymore. either you're scum pushing me, or just salty. from your behavior, I'd say you're town. you even mentioned waiting for my vote on you - and I did so to prove my point.
read above, I never said I shouldn't be lynched. in fact, I even offered to have myself lynched for information. my claim still stands..I am town.
Someone is lieing about their ability costs, because if mine cost 4 and a vig shot costs 1 something just aint right.
there is a chance we're in a game where roles are meant to give and receive. I've been trying to figure that out for a while. [[urlhttp://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/784906-zero-escape-mafia-day-1-welcome-to-my-kingdom?comment=1919]refer to this[/url]] I doubt the BP system is as simple as Betray scum and Ally with town.
[to me saying I wasn't a shining example of town] No you have not lol, your claim was not done right
does that mean you ARE townreading me due to that mess? then why did you keep pushing me about it? as I said, it looks like you're having some offgame qualm with me.
I dont have an off game qualm with you stop mentioning that its irritating, my reason for voting you has to do with this game and this game only.
I know you can be lynched silly I was implying that you thought your role was too important to be lynched, you said you shouldnt be lynched because of how powerful of a town role you have I recall a statement like there somewhere.
and that is my problem with this town.. they cannot see beyond what the scumteam gives them, on a golden platter.
I just want to say, you have come across as having a very negative view towards the community here, and while it may be manipulative or OMGUS, this is one of the most talented and varied mafia communities that I've seen online.
There's users here like Tom, who may have more mafia experience than everyone else in this thread combined.
There's users here like Shadow, who in one of his first games on the site, played an amazing scum game, and would have won the team the game had it not been for a single town player's actions.
There's users here like Megiddo, who can post NO BRAKES and a vote as every post in a game and still make people uncertain if he's scum or not.
There's users here like Kpaca, sardonic and lazy-seeming, but incredibly skilled at reading people, whether or not they know them.
There's users here like Iso, who try to solve the game in their first few posts and whose town and scum games are both "parodies of themselves."
There's users here like Cantrip, cool, calculative, a fantastic setup designer, and with a scum game that looks nigh identical to his town game.
There's users here like D_V, who gets incredibly angry and aggressive in a lot of games, if not every game, but can play through that and maintain a role and/or reads based on genuine thought.
I could go on, but I think you should be able to get what I'm saying here. There's a lot of variety, a lot of talent, so everyone plays with that in mind. A lot of things are not taken at face value, and scumtells are leapt on. The pace is an extended one so people can fit in games around their personal schedules, but that does not mean that people are going to be lax. The shark-infested custard metaphor I used earlier is a good one (albeit blatantly copied from a Magic-related comment).
Should people be more forgiving of newer or unfamiliar players? Yes. Should they just ignore scumtells from those players? No.
I dont have an off game qualm with you stop mentioning that its irritating, my reason for voting you has to do with this game and this game only.
I know you can be lynched silly I was implying that you thought your role was too important to be lynched, you said you shouldnt be lynched because of how powerful of a town role you have I recall a statement like there somewhere.
you're irritated? good. I'm irritated as well, and longer. I'll just keep saying you have some offgame qualm with me to irritate you further. UNTIL you stop with that obsession with the validity of my claim.
yes my role is important to town. that's the beauty of it! I will make town pay for their lack of insight, and wasting the Day phase. I've never been so disappointed and amused by town in such a long while. trololol. yes I'm having fun with this. is that bad? you want to hate-lynch me?
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I know I'm not being my typical productive self this game in the slightest, and that's also a self-admitted scum tell for me, as discussed many times. However, as I've also mentioned at various times in the past, I'm an attorney with my own practice. In the past 9 months, we've expanded that from a solo practice to having several employees and a new branch office. Also, I now have two kids, ages 1 and 2. So time to spare to PBPA people for an hour or two a pop is at a real premium right now, even on the weekends. It may even be that my PBPA days are a thing of the past now.
For me this makes no difference cause I dont know your playstyle nor care much about it, cause if I think ur doing something scummy then your scummy end of story XD.
and that is my problem with this town.. they cannot see beyond what the scumteam gives them, on a golden platter.
I just want to say, you have come across as having a very negative view towards the community here, and while it may be manipulative or OMGUS, this is one of the most talented and varied mafia communities that I've seen online.
There's users here like Tom, who may have more mafia experience than everyone else in this thread combined.
There's users here like Shadow, who in one of his first games on the site, played an amazing scum game, and would have won the team the game had it not been for a single town player's actions.
There's users here like Megiddo, who can post NO BRAKES and a vote as every post in a game and still make people uncertain if he's scum or not.
There's users here like Kpaca, sardonic and lazy-seeming, but incredibly skilled at reading people, whether or not they know them.
There's users here like Iso, who try to solve the game in their first few posts and whose town and scum games are both "parodies of themselves."
There's users here like Cantrip, cool, calculative, a fantastic setup designer, and with a scum game that looks nigh identical to his town game.
There's users here like D_V, who gets incredibly angry and aggressive in a lot of games, if not every game, but can play through that and maintain a role and/or reads based on genuine thought.
I could go on, but I think you should be able to get what I'm saying here. There's a lot of variety, a lot of talent, so everyone plays with that in mind. A lot of things are not taken at face value, and scumtells are leapt on. The pace is an extended one so people can fit in games around their personal schedules, but that does not mean that people are going to be lax. The shark-infested custard metaphor I used earlier is a good one (albeit blatantly copied from a Magic-related comment).
Should people be more forgiving of newer or unfamiliar players? Yes. Should they just ignore scumtells from those players? No.
I never said the community is terrible. but this town, in this particular game, are being misled too easily. I've only been around for a year and played 19 games. don't intend to play the newbie card, but scum apparently are trying to use a newbie!scum excuse on me. ok, explain to me why you think that newbie scum are easy to catch? what is the basis and how? I try to learn from veterans, but with the way things are going, I'm just very disappointed. half a Day is wasted on me, and it still continues - I thought veterans knew better than that~
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
you're irritated? good. I'm irritated as well, and longer. I'll just keep saying you have some offgame qualm with me to irritate you further,
Quoted without context:
Quote from Voxxicus »
Mafia is a team game. Regardless of which alignment you are, that is a true statement. There are multiple players in this game who are acting in a manner that indicates their primary focus and motivation is their own amusement, rather than working as part of that team towards the win condition in an optimal manner.
For the sake of this post, let's just assume I'm a villager - though I have made posts like this as a wolf in the past. I should not have to sort multiple layers deep to discern motivations in mafia. I should not have to read a post, decide you are being deliberately unhelpful, deliberately vague, deliberately misleading, deliberately irritating, and then try to decide if you are the type of person that is selfish enough to do that as town, on top of that. There have been multiple posts this game, from multiple people, that have actively made me close the thread and not want to post or play.
I guess I'm just asking that people take a look in the mirror, and decide if a small boost to their own personal enjoyment at their own cleverness is worth making the game a less enjoyable and more difficult experience for the people they are playing with. If the answer to that is "it is", then I have nothing else to say.
I don't care that much about the actions people take, or the exact words they say - I care about how they think, and how they get to point in terms of thought progression, and making that difficult to evaluate is anti-town. I just... don't want to have to decide if it's anti-town because of the alignment of the player in question, or because the person is town acting in such a manner.
I've had this argument with Tomsloger several times over, and I'm just...really tired of having it. Be yourself, be true, be pure, but play the damn game in a way that doesn't make the people you're playing it with not want to play it. This game is inactive and dead, and it doesn't really read like many people are having fun.
Let's try to fix that, yes?
I care about community health, I care about game health, I care about game enjoyment. I do so as both alignments.
and that is my problem with this town.. they cannot see beyond what the scumteam gives them, on a golden platter.
Then who is the scum team?
most I can think of is Grapefruit and LnG at the moment. by association, Grapefruit has been falling back on LnG too much, besides lack of natural progression, and LnG is taking it all in.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
and that is my problem with this town.. they cannot see beyond what the scumteam gives them, on a golden platter.
Then who is the scum team?
most I can think of is Grapefruit and LnG at the moment. by association, Grapefruit has been falling back on LnG too much, besides lack of natural progression, and LnG is taking it all in.
So u think from game start GF is just gonna buss his teammate if so why?
Ill say it again unless your proven town its not game throwing, I believe your scum. If your gonna just throw fustration at me why should I see you any other way? Scum are the kind of people that want to manipulate and irritate players, thats not a mindset town should be ok with having.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
but then again why would mafia need a double role? and these roles are balance around BP, like some people dont start with enough bp to use their secondary abilities. Its def difficult at this point to see the need for a role being so strong, but its also off set by bp...
My most recent setup, Disinheritance (from earlier this year), which appears to be the design predecessor and inspiration for this game, had some pretty close similarities. Disinheritance allowed players to transfer points between one another, and to publicly vote to empower players with additional points during the day. Players could then spend those points to power their abilities. Typically, townies had one strong ability, and one lower costed ability. The scum, on the other hand, had a swiss army knife setup of 3-4 abilities, some of which were fairly innocent sounding and safe to claim, and some of which were more (read: very) exotic or clearly scum-oriented in nature. They also got an extra measure of points.
While the execution by Bur is creative and original in a number of respects, this setup shares a lot of that older design's philosophy, in a number of interesting ways. It utilizes the same principles that predicting other players' assignments, actions, and allocating the town's resources effectively should be essential mechanics for the town to figure out - and for the scum to undermine in devious fashion.
If Bur is also utilizing some of the same philosophy as to designing and balancing the scum rules, by giving them additional utility and versatility in role-claims and night actions, that certainly casts a shadow onto DBS's claim.
Again, I don't want to make a decision based on that alone, but it is enough of a question mark to make me want to do a very careful reread of DBS's posts and see what I might find there.
Anyone reading this post and thinks Azreal is town has another thing coming.
This has to be one of the biggest smears I've ever seen.
@LastWhisper
opinions on Shinichi please. I see you've been suspecting him for a while. (I would like to believe he is scum, since gamethrowing is really bad lol)
you've been suspicious of Azrael too. reasons?
and who else do you suspect? ...Grapefruit?
would like to see a readlist from you.
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I never said the community is terrible. but this town, in this particular game, are being misled too easily. I've only been around for a year and played 19 games. don't intend to play the newbie card, but scum apparently are trying to use a newbie!scum excuse on me. ok, explain to me why you think that newbie scum are easy to catch? what is the basis and how? I try to learn from veterans, but with the way things are going, I'm just very disappointed. half a Day is wasted on me, and it still continues - I thought veterans knew better than that~
Newer scum are more likely to slip up, because they are still getting their sea legs, so to speak.
Do you feel you have no significant responsibility for half a day being wasted on you? You've described your own play with: "I've been inconsistent throughout the game," "ik my posts are generally bad," "lowhanging fruit," "reasons [I'm scumread] are warranted," "I am known to be a manipulative player," "I love torturing ppl, it's more fun than winning," "I'm trolling scum with these claims lol.. maybe town in the process," "How To Irritate People 1968," "I insult and do things to get reactions," "thx [for saying my posts are annoying to read]," "I now hold town hostage," "my hellish playstyle," "what if I lie," "what if I'm lying about what he says," "you should not trust me," "might cost town a loss," "derailing town's focus," "it would be foolish for others to believe my claim," "I'd rather have fun juggling my claim around," "I have been everything but a shining example of being town," "anti-town by playstyle," "at least it took a week of pressure for me to throw a tantrum," "scummy," "I'm more of a powerwolfer," this post,
If "the only way [we] can figure [you] out is by motive," then why suggest that your motives are less than pure?
They have not voted a person in like 1000 posts or something. Keeps going "Maybe I'll join" and then just sits on the sideline.
Every single wagon.
My scum team probabally includes both of them and Azreal.
Hmm maybe I am to focused on Dawn because I had not noticed that, but ive also dealt with alot of people who dont like voting on day 1. So posibbly caused me to over look that detail.
@D_V
how can Osie and Killjoy be both scum? Kiljoy made a wall on why Osie would be scum, and Osie explained (meticulously) that one of the points were wrong. if we have to suspect them as T/S, then Osie is scum.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
II. God another one, I’d pick Iso, and ask him question B-D and 8 and 2. Because I am interested in how he plays the game
(I didn't particularly care about YOUR answer to questions 2 or C, though.)
8 tells me something about your reads, and B and D are completely self-serving, at least in your case, to better myself as a player via the opinions of a better player.
Newer scum are more likely to slip up, because they are still getting their sea legs, so to speak.
I am only new to this community and how it plays. not new to playing as scum, in fact I won 3/3 scumgames.
Do you feel you have no significant responsibility for half a day being wasted on you?
no I don't. if you cannot handle problematic players, you cannot gamesolve in the first place. there will always be problems to solve, your only job is to find the solution. blaming the loss of a team on one person is not sporting.
If "the only way [we] can figure [you] out is by motive," then why suggest that your motives are less than pure?
if you cannot read into someone's motives by mere interaction, how do you even win the game?
Private Mod Note
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"I still remember the days I prayed for the things I have now.
I [b]beleive[b] pressure on Shin would yield results as to his alignment.
Ergo, I have a gut [b]feeling[/b] based on personality and posting style that how he reacts to pressure is a tell for him.
[...]
There's probably enough to determine his alignment [b]now.[/b]
[...]
Hedging is a way of adding modifiers to ideas that change them.
Like, I think Person X is scum for now.
Instead of just saying "Person X is scum", the hedge "I think" indicates an opinion (which could be wrong) and "for now" allows that opinion to change in the future.
As I said, hedging isn't definitive. Town aren't always confident either. But scum are more likely to since it gives them outs.
[...]
That means you [b]think[/b] he's scum.
Surely this is just a mistake and not a blatant clue.
This is actually a really good catch. I'm inclined to lean towards the clue side I think.
Okay I was wrong about Terry probably. His questions about other RB abilities are good and feel like his townself. He (and everyone else should stop pushing DBS, but that's another story).
I am familiar with LW's town and scum game. And this doesn't feel like either of them due to how focused he's been on defending DBS. Initially I had some town vibes from him and felt like DBS was attempting to pocket him. But with the way the majority of his posts for the past 72 hours have been playing hard defense for DBS I don't know what to make of it, none of this fits his meta either way. It's why I really want him to clarify his reasoning for town reading DBS.
can you explain to me why you're so adamant at mentioning my defense of Last? Shinichi asked me about it, which I explained, and it's because I know Last is an easily mistaken player - I love the a good challenge. for better elaboration, I'm expanding my range for reading off reactions - watch those who interact with someone I side, or accuse me for it, and watch what mindset it comes from.
what is the definition of pocketing? if you mean I side Last, the reasons are stated above. if you want Last to clarify his reasonings of defending, why aren't you questioning him actively? why is it only me? looks to me you're just commenting for the sake of commenting.
I am asking him! He keeps not answering at all. And it's very frustrating/suspicious.
Also this post is much more about Last's defense of you than yours of him. And I keep mentioning it because regardless of familiarity of his meta (though you admit you don't know his scum meta so how familiar can you actually be) you shouldn't have the confidence level you appear to have now given the way you're treating everyone else. You keep mentioning the Lylo game as a reason for trust but have accused Shin of carrying over negative bias from previous games. Do you not see why that would be perceived as hypocritical? I think you're town, I'm just asking you to completely reset on Wisp because there is no way you should be trusting him like you are and no way he should be trusting you like he does. And I can't figure out if it's because one of you is scum or because you too are familiar with each other.
Also I don't believe I initially pushed for you to claim at all. And have not pressured you at all since then despite occasionally still calling you scum.
Meh I don't feel great about it unless KJ and Osie are scum together because that wall didn't feel like scum!KJ attacking town!Osie but Jenna has a good point and KJ has been lurking something fierce. And has the scum tells that got me voting him in the first place. Plus Jenna's hilarious psuedo-fruedian slip catch.
@D_V
how can Osie and Killjoy be both scum? Kiljoy made a wall on why Osie would be scum, and Osie explained (meticulously) that one of the points were wrong. if we have to suspect them as T/S, then Osie is scum.
I think its possible KJ tried to bus.
His case was so bad. It didn't even make Osie scum and I went point by point about why it was bad.
KJ has pretty much just floundered around this game. Like he dropped the Osie is scum thing real quick too.
@D_V
how can Osie and Killjoy be both scum? Kiljoy made a wall on why Osie would be scum, and Osie explained (meticulously) that one of the points were wrong. if we have to suspect them as T/S, then Osie is scum.
I think its possible KJ tried to bus.
His case was so bad. It didn't even make Osie scum and I went point by point about why it was bad.
KJ has pretty much just floundered around this game. Like he dropped the Osie is scum thing real quick too.
Be grateful, always."
again, if someone is scummy it doesn't mean they are scum. it just means the scumteam knows how to push buttons. this is just a game and there is no right or wrong way to play it. I really detest that mindset.
Be grateful, always."
I'm concerned about the degree of self-victimization here. From experienced town, this looks beyond bizarre. From inexperienced or unfamiliar town, there's still a lot of this spread throughout Dawning's posts. From experienced scum, this could be a manipulative ploy. From inexperienced/unfamiliar scum, this could be flailing. I think a number of people here are inclined to believe that last possibility. I'm still uncertain between the latter three.
Not the first time I've completely botched reading the rules, my role PM, or both.
Sounds tasty.
I'm just sayin', there was a huge discussion about it, and you even commented immediately after my "oops" post.
Uhh? Scum can lie about A/B after being paired with scum, too.
Not really.
^
Well, at least half of your list is wrong.
It makes her more likely to be scum because being perpetually in catch-up mode doesn't give us anything genuine or current to gauge her alignment off of. It's easy to generate "genuine" reactions to things that have already happened, when she doesn't have to keep up and react in realtime.
If it weren't a real question I wouldn't ask it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Be grateful, always."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Be grateful, always."
Guess Ill step in here because this post kinda bothered me a little
-Your play style does not matter nor should it ever effect how people view you in this specific ongoing game. If you want any of the people who odn't know you to town read you must give them a reason, if you want to play an anti town way then expect to be scum read. I willingly play the way I do even knowing I get scum read but I don't expect people to let me go because of it. Sure I talk like I expect it but if anyone did I just think they were scummy lol. Claiming should always be done when your on the point of being lynched, its up to the playerbase to trust the claim or not but nonetheless it hurts town not claiming if your about tog et lynched. Vt are confirmed to exist in games that don't have the rolemadness tag so i dont find anything off base about the claim unless you got like 6 people claiming it. Too assume the norm only effects you when a person knows your playstle is not fair, to expect anyone to treat you differently based on a play style isnt fair, too choose to treat a person differently is fine but too assume the whole palyerbase should do that is wrong.
-It should matter, because right now everyone here is guilty till proven innocent which can't happen till a flip or some kind of informative role steps forward on day 2 if one exists. If your refering to grrr thats wrong to think we have to treat you the same way he is treated due to his play style hes hard to read but hes never really been anti town, he also does not throw his role in our faces like ur doing right now lol. Policy lynch will not happen in a 2 week phase, these players have plenty of reason to vote you.
No one is dictating how you should play, your just expecting us to be ok with how your playing which honestly both are wrong in a way. End of story if 5 people ask you to full claim an you procede not to expect to be scum read end of story lmfao.
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
I dont have an off game qualm with you stop mentioning that its irritating, my reason for voting you has to do with this game and this game only.
I know you can be lynched silly I was implying that you thought your role was too important to be lynched, you said you shouldnt be lynched because of how powerful of a town role you have I recall a statement like there somewhere.
I just want to say, you have come across as having a very negative view towards the community here, and while it may be manipulative or OMGUS, this is one of the most talented and varied mafia communities that I've seen online.
There's users here like Tom, who may have more mafia experience than everyone else in this thread combined.
There's users here like Shadow, who in one of his first games on the site, played an amazing scum game, and would have won the team the game had it not been for a single town player's actions.
There's users here like Megiddo, who can post NO BRAKES and a vote as every post in a game and still make people uncertain if he's scum or not.
There's users here like Kpaca, sardonic and lazy-seeming, but incredibly skilled at reading people, whether or not they know them.
There's users here like Iso, who try to solve the game in their first few posts and whose town and scum games are both "parodies of themselves."
There's users here like Cantrip, cool, calculative, a fantastic setup designer, and with a scum game that looks nigh identical to his town game.
There's users here like D_V, who gets incredibly angry and aggressive in a lot of games, if not every game, but can play through that and maintain a role and/or reads based on genuine thought.
I could go on, but I think you should be able to get what I'm saying here. There's a lot of variety, a lot of talent, so everyone plays with that in mind. A lot of things are not taken at face value, and scumtells are leapt on. The pace is an extended one so people can fit in games around their personal schedules, but that does not mean that people are going to be lax. The shark-infested custard metaphor I used earlier is a good one (albeit blatantly copied from a Magic-related comment).
Should people be more forgiving of newer or unfamiliar players? Yes. Should they just ignore scumtells from those players? No.
yes my role is important to town. that's the beauty of it! I will make town pay for their lack of insight, and wasting the Day phase. I've never been so disappointed and amused by town in such a long while. trololol. yes I'm having fun with this. is that bad? you want to hate-lynch me?
Be grateful, always."
You are a Town Powerwolfer.
Your abilities are:
Get scumread because Town shouldn't be powerwolfing.
For me this makes no difference cause I dont know your playstyle nor care much about it, cause if I think ur doing something scummy then your scummy end of story XD.
Then who is the scum team?
Be grateful, always."
Quoted without context:
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
No actually we aren't playing this game reply to my wall before you think U have the right ask me a question.
Once u reply to that then Ill give you my reasons.
So u think from game start GF is just gonna buss his teammate if so why?
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
Be grateful, always."
Play nice, kids.
-
@osi: Why did you want me to answer those questions, in particular?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Anyone reading this post and thinks Azreal is town has another thing coming.
This has to be one of the biggest smears I've ever seen.
K thanks.
Someone make a convincing argument on how having a role that needs to play scummy or as a battery is a scum role.
Pro-tip its a dick design for scum.
Essentially what happened with KJ is came in made some stink.
I called out his bad reads.
Well Azreal did first.
Than bang. Here we are.
He's effectively started lurking.
Unvote Vote Killjoy
I'll be amazed if Killjoy is town.
They have not voted a person in like 1000 posts or something. Keeps going "Maybe I'll join" and then just sits on the sideline.
Every single wagon.
My scum team probabally includes both of them and Azreal.
opinions on Shinichi please. I see you've been suspecting him for a while. (I would like to believe he is scum, since gamethrowing is really bad lol)
you've been suspicious of Azrael too. reasons?
and who else do you suspect? ...Grapefruit?
would like to see a readlist from you.
Be grateful, always."
Newer scum are more likely to slip up, because they are still getting their sea legs, so to speak.
Do you feel you have no significant responsibility for half a day being wasted on you? You've described your own play with: "I've been inconsistent throughout the game," "ik my posts are generally bad," "lowhanging fruit," "reasons [I'm scumread] are warranted," "I am known to be a manipulative player," "I love torturing ppl, it's more fun than winning," "I'm trolling scum with these claims lol.. maybe town in the process," "How To Irritate People 1968," "I insult and do things to get reactions," "thx [for saying my posts are annoying to read]," "I now hold town hostage," "my hellish playstyle," "what if I lie," "what if I'm lying about what he says," "you should not trust me," "might cost town a loss," "derailing town's focus," "it would be foolish for others to believe my claim," "I'd rather have fun juggling my claim around," "I have been everything but a shining example of being town," "anti-town by playstyle," "at least it took a week of pressure for me to throw a tantrum," "scummy," "I'm more of a powerwolfer," this post,
If "the only way [we] can figure [you] out is by motive," then why suggest that your motives are less than pure?
Hmm maybe I am to focused on Dawn because I had not noticed that, but ive also dealt with alot of people who dont like voting on day 1. So posibbly caused me to over look that detail.
You mean like Dawns role where she has to be betrayed to activate an ability?
how can Osie and Killjoy be both scum? Kiljoy made a wall on why Osie would be scum, and Osie explained (meticulously) that one of the points were wrong. if we have to suspect them as T/S, then Osie is scum.
Be grateful, always."
Partly for LW's sake:
(I didn't particularly care about YOUR answer to questions 2 or C, though.)
8 tells me something about your reads, and B and D are completely self-serving, at least in your case, to better myself as a player via the opinions of a better player.
The shade you're providing is so extensive... Super shady. I miss the sunny, pockety posts from earlier in the game.
no I don't. if you cannot handle problematic players, you cannot gamesolve in the first place. there will always be problems to solve, your only job is to find the solution. blaming the loss of a team on one person is not sporting.
if you cannot read into someone's motives by mere interaction, how do you even win the game?
Be grateful, always."
Shade or not why havent u voted in such long period of time?
You are literally not disproving my case.
Please take a stand for smething
This is actually a really good catch. I'm inclined to lean towards the clue side I think.
Okay I was wrong about Terry probably. His questions about other RB abilities are good and feel like his townself. He (and everyone else should stop pushing DBS, but that's another story).
I am asking him! He keeps not answering at all. And it's very frustrating/suspicious.
Also this post is much more about Last's defense of you than yours of him. And I keep mentioning it because regardless of familiarity of his meta (though you admit you don't know his scum meta so how familiar can you actually be) you shouldn't have the confidence level you appear to have now given the way you're treating everyone else. You keep mentioning the Lylo game as a reason for trust but have accused Shin of carrying over negative bias from previous games. Do you not see why that would be perceived as hypocritical? I think you're town, I'm just asking you to completely reset on Wisp because there is no way you should be trusting him like you are and no way he should be trusting you like he does. And I can't figure out if it's because one of you is scum or because you too are familiar with each other.
Also I don't believe I initially pushed for you to claim at all. And have not pressured you at all since then despite occasionally still calling you scum.
Vote: KJ
I think its possible KJ tried to bus.
His case was so bad. It didn't even make Osie scum and I went point by point about why it was bad.
KJ has pretty much just floundered around this game. Like he dropped the Osie is scum thing real quick too.
I unvoted 6 hours ago, roughly 100 posts back. That's not a long period of time.
What was the post number for that case
Guess i read that post wrong lol, thought he was refering to your vote.