Specifically, if you read Bear, Jenna, and Killjoy, they all pretty much ignore/null each other or barely distance from them.
You keep saying that. Though your countless hours of reading you should have seen how fondly I spoke of Killjoy, until you opened my eyes about him. And then you pose some conclusion about me, except your ability failed. And yet without reevaluating you stick to it. And I believe it one point I even said that I would trust Colin's testimony of A Bear if it could be confirmed. When it wasn't, that raised suspicions on them both. Your mafia is Colin, A Bear, and Killjoy. And if you would somehow still pursue me, then just lynch me now. I would rather not be forced to suffer through three more nights for the same inevitable outcome.
Still catching up and busy over the next two days.
I'm glad you've explained night 1 pizza, as I was going to bring it up today. I'm going to confirm that targeted actions fails on pizza night 1, and also point out that based on his approach since joining the game paired with him fully declaring what happened n1 has him firmly in my town. I'm not sure I agree 100% with the scum circle but it's very close to where I'm at right now.
Obviously the shenanigans at the close of yesterday has greatly helped us and we have a very clear lynch today. Fortunately that gives me plenty of time to solve everything.
Still catching up and busy over the next two days.
I'm glad you've explained night 1 pizza, as I was going to bring it up today. I'm going to confirm that targeted actions fails on pizza night 1, and also point out that based on his approach since joining the game paired with him fully declaring what happened n1 has him firmly in my town. I'm not sure I agree 100% with the scum circle but it's very close to where I'm at right now.
Obviously the shenanigans at the close of yesterday has greatly helped us and we have a very clear lynch today. Fortunately that gives me plenty of time to solve everything.
Now that is surprising.
Town shouldn't have so many active abilities in a 12 player game that provide information.
Like, I could buy a limited doctor or something, perhaps a full doc. But a doctor doesn't typically get told that their action failed.
Maybe it's the game host's style, but I'd prefer if you clarified this claim, as I don't have you as lock town.
And if Killjoy or Jenna is a villager, I gotta figure out how that's possible.
Who is your scum circle? Because you're the only other person it should be, if it's not the three I named.
Then again, I find it unusual that I should even gain knowledge that my own kidnap failed.
I would definitely believe it's the game host's style that leads to such info being given out, I've found that no results should be given for doctors/roleblockers, non-detectives. You don't get to know that it fails.
But silver isn't from my sites/culture and differences in hosting style can happen even so.
But we had a vigilante, that's typically worth one wolf in the right hands (the right hands)
A tracker is worth half a wolf, maybe a full wolf. Tracking is weak but can catch a wolf murdering. More likely to find town power roles or wolf power roles that they can spin as town power roles.
My role is definitely weak, commute is basically worth.... I dunno. 0.1 wolves. Not even that. It's not for solving, but it can keep a strong player alive who typically dies on n1. The kidnap is like a weaker version of a jailkeep, because jailkeep doesn't stop town investigations (like a tracker). So kidnapping will interfere with the town tracker, which is good, I like roles that take the punch out of investigative powers, because cops suck for the game yet people refuse to play without them.
So, a jailkeep is a combo of roleblock and doctor but gives the downsides of both. You jailkeep a scum, they cannot be vig'ed that night. You jailkeep a town power, they can't use their actions.
Kidnapping interferes with both the vigilante and the town tracker, lessening the strength of both roles. Fits rather nicely into the setup so far, and a full kidnapper instead of a one shot might have been really worth it to whoever gets the role.
The messaging power just seems like bells and whistles. Doesn't do much, if you have no investigatory powers. I suppose I could have written my leans list as my last will and testament and given it to a townie I trusted during the night phase, in case I died. And in my case in particular, that might be worth a wolf. But usually it should be worth nothing.
Town had kill power, town had investigative power, town has a bells and whistles role to keep the game from being boring. Call it a limited roleblock/doc with a single functioning commute. Pseudo jack of all trades.
All I can think of would be like a doctor who has been unsuccessful in protecting people, and I really don't like putting a doctor in a game with a vigilante and a cop in a 12er.
You'd need mega powerful scums for balance, like... they'd need at least a 1 shot vig, they absolutely have to have roleblocking powers, and a godfather would be preferred, in this case it'd have to be a ninja to go against a tracker.
Hell, my own commuting power would be more useful for the wolf team than not, if it wasn't a one shot deal. Instead of a godfather, a 1 shot passive bulletproof scum would counter the town vig, at least long enough to survive a night.
Speaking of passive, that's the next piece of this mystery. Gotta refer to the OP.
So I'd like to know how Tubba knew I wasn't roleblocked.
If Tubba claims like a 1 shot cop, it makes sense. But if not, then he's got some other kind of power, and then why does Colin have a power?
Most people should be vanilla townies.
If my scums list is wrong it will come down to Tubba and Colin's claims. I really like Tubba this game though, that's a nice jump from low Fantasy in terms of strength of wolfing if it's the case. I like pleasant surprises like that, even if it costs me a game, I like being beaten by good wolves as opposed to losing to obvious ones.
Even a non-investigative role will be getting an action failed result. So it would explain both Tubba and Colin's reactions even if only one of them had an investigatory.
Why is everyone targeting Voxx n1? If it's not a doctor protection or a Watcher you really shouldn't be there on night one since he was widely townread.
Watcher makes more sense than a cop, especially in this setup. That's worth way more than a tracker too, that's a full wolf value. You target the towniest people and catch wolves or confirm doctor claims, and other town powers.
So now my guess is that one of Colin or Tubba is a watcher, but what the heck was the other person doing at Voxx's location on n1?
One of the reasons why its incredibly dumb for me to claim all the stuff I've claimed so far if it's a total lie is because I can get hard countered by a watcher, and while I think it's possible town can have one after the flips we've seen and the claims being made, I'd probably suspect it from the beginning of the game if I was a wolf.
You don't claim to have commuted on n1 unless that's what you were actually doing. Tracker or Watcher both can catch you that way, apparently.
You absolutely have no reason to claim attempting to kidnap Jenna, because the action should detect me at Jenna's location last night, and if Jenna was detected at ANY location last night, it also contradicts the claim.
And claiming to have a messaging power should trigger the watcher as well, even if all I'm doing is leaving a message.
I'd know that instinctively if I was a wolf, so I'd never be making such a *****ty claim in such a defensible and town-read position, where I can be caught in a lie that serves no utility and doesn't even mislynch anyone.
[Passive] abilities are always active and cannot be tracked, roleblocked or redirected.
That shouldn't explain either Tubba or Colin's claim to know of Voxx's lie.
But now I'm curious about mass claiming. Town shouldn't have many/any passive abilities.
We already have a commuter, so a 1-time bulletproof vest is a bit overkill on the townies who can't die at night aspect, even if they're limited, that's still awfully frustrating to the wolf team contending with vig and investigative.
Stuff like a miller would technically be passive, but shouldn't be of any note unless town had a cop. It's also kinda iffy to include it in any game, let alone a mini.
Innocent child is usually revealed on d1/n1 or is an active power, you can do it any time and it reveals immediately or at the end of the phase. So that shouldn't be passive at this point.
Masons would not be an active ability, but it wouldn't really be an ability of any kind, either active or passive. It's just extra info given to a vanilla townie.
Bomb/gunsmith, that's sometimes possible. It is passive. Someone targets the bomb/gunsmith and ends up dying. But that's usually meant to limit an already too strong town and it's also super variance, because scums targeting the bomb lose a scum. That's too much kp for a town. A bomb or gunsmith could be worth a full wolf, all you have to do is get town read and wait, and collect your wolf pelt eventually. I don't like including that.
What passive would town have?
If town doesn't have a passive then it's the scums who have a passive. Passive would be ninja status, the ability to do what you need without being detected at the location. Godfather would also count as a passive, I don't think we have one if we have a tracker, and especially if we have a watcher as well.
1 bulletproof vest is also passive. Scums could have one of those.
Game host doesn't tell us a difference between active and passive abilities unless they're in the setup, or unless they're standard copy-paste setup info they always use.
I think we have to mass claim, as it is most likely myslynch-lose anyway versus a town vigilante, scums have to have 3. And it's typically 3:12 when town has powers, or 3:13 when town doesn't. Let's hear everyone's powers. It's too late to test most of them, but it's still good to factor them in with our skepticism faces on.
You absolutely have no reason to claim attempting to kidnap Jenna, because the action should detect me at Jenna's location last night, and if Jenna was detected at ANY location last night, it also contradicts the claim.
More likely not to detect me at all actually, unless the reason I got blocked was a passive power jenna had, like a strongman.
I need more info. I can't wrap everything up neatly with a bow on top until I hear everyone's claims.
If it matters, if my wolf team is wrong, we need to use the time and talk it out. I need the full claims from everyone.
Make certain you follow the rulebook when claiming.
2: When generating (or faking, as applicable) reads, please do not use angleshooting or out of game knowledge to the best of your ability. This means do not use the timing, reasons, or order of substitutions and modkills to influence others, do not use the timing or phrasing of role PMs to influence others, do not make alignment bets with out of game consequences, and do not use “trust tells” or similar. This list is not exhaustive.
6: Do not directly quote your role PM or any private communications (QuickTopics, etc.) when posting in the main game thread. This includes mason chats and scum chats. Please paraphrase - if you are in doubt, ask me before posting! This is a modkillable offense.
I don't know if I buy masons, but neighbors or lovers that share a chat could be possible.
If you simply have out of thread comms, you don't know if the other person is townie. That's useful to the scum team if they're in the neighbor chat and gives them an advantage to counter town's other powers.
A lover team both dies when one dies, and giving them a mason or neighbor chat is also frequently done. Just experienced that in the last game I played on my home site. Wolf and townie lovers, sharing a neighbor chat. We lost because I couldn't convince the townie in final 4 to lynch their own lover partner, even though it would have satisfied their win condition. I was convinced the final wolf was in the lover team, but I picked the wrong partner, so the villager had skeptical face about lynching their buddy after that.
The rule about not quoting chats is also often there to make it extra illegal if a wolf throws/sabotages a game, and is often a copy/paste rule. We probably don't have any neighbor or lover chats, and almost certainly no masons, but I needed to think about it.
I don't recall saying that I knew Voxx wasn't roleblocked, merely pointed out how it was a reasonable gambit under the circumstances, with plenty of upside for his scum team.
I think a mass claim is unnecessary at this point, but if the consensus agrees that we should, then I will.
I don't recall saying that I knew Voxx wasn't roleblocked, merely pointed out how it was a reasonable gambit under the circumstances, with plenty of upside for his scum team.
I think a mass claim is unnecessary at this point, but if the consensus agrees that we should, then I will.
Well, you're going to at the very least recall what prompted your comment, because that's quite a leap to go from Voxx claiming to be roleblocked to Voxx is lying, without any knowledge.
Now you're claiming you had no actual knowledge.
So your first outing as a villager, you decide when someone says something as simple as I was roleblocked, your response is "you are lying"?
Why?
Even if you don't remember exactly what you said, you sure as heck know what you were thinking.
I need a detailed explanation for this, because it threatens to push you out of my town if you don't give a good answer.
If any of my wolf reads are wrong, it's Killjoy, most likely. I like the cardboard cut-out tell, but I don't have a ton of meta on KJ, and my case is that he looks similar, but not the same as last game, and wolfy people really didn't talk about him, and he didn't really talk about wolfy people.
If that is right, great, the game is solved. If that's wrong, he looks scummy by pure coincidence.
If I start to read any villager scum, Killjoy becomes town.
If Killjoy is scum, me switching off of him likely loses the game. So I need massive, full cooperation from Colin and Tubba locking them both down as town.
I'm being thorough, and we need to know who our villagers are to win.
Not quite sure I understand the motivation in roleblocking me and shooting Vaimes rather than vice versa, but doc dodge I guess.
I guess it's theoretically possible it's a town roleblock on me (jailkeeper?) and they made the right call in doc dodging heh.
Whatever, it's all wifom - I'll just say that if it was a jailkeeper on me, to like, flip a coin on protecting me or your second most obvious protect, so wolves have to either risk a bounce or shoot into the possible PoE.
Speaking of gambits, I can't help but be suspicious of Voxx right now. He's perfectly suited to take a chance on a Hail Mary after banking town cred on the Vaimes read of him.
That's a post series that muddles the game as opposed to helping solve it. Town chases its tail trying to figure out how scum knows where the power is, we give Voxx more town cred as town power, but we don't actually gain any information.
This assumes scumVoxx is real, of course. That's something I want to hear opinions on.
Hm. I kind of like this post.
Tubba, talk to me about scum!Voxx. What does he do to live to end game? Does his claiming to be roleblocked play to that end as well?
@Killjoy
If scumVoxx is real, claiming role blocked is a risk, but if it works, gives him a good chance to survive and do some damage. The payoff is more players rolling to his narrative, no longer seriously suspecting him at worst, and taking his opinions as gospel at best. If he solidifies even just two or three town reads on him, it works to buy him a few days/possible mislynches. It leaves him open to claim at a later date, and open to pushing fake news on the thread. While this is simply a theory of mine at this point, I want everyone to be aware of the possibilities and not fall prey to the gambit.
This seems to be the progression, to jog everyone's memory on that.
Ok. Tubba's comment more prompted by Killjoy's comment. So far it looks like he didn't claim knowledge Voxx was lying, but was speaking in hypothetical terms prompted by someone else.
Only later on, after I made the solo decision to go back on Voxx's gambit and literally confirm that Voxx was lying, did Tubba accuse me of lying.
Well after I claimed Voxx was lying:
Basically, it comes down to the lie. I can think of several reasons scumVoxx would lie about being roleblocked. I've mentioned them in an earlier post. I can't think of ANY good reason for townVoxx to lie. If your goal is to draw a nightkill, it's easier for town if you just focus on aggressively solving. It's unfortunate that we can't get Voxx's input, something i was looking for engagement on while he was around, and didn't get. Pizza coming in and not really addressing it is also suspect.
Pizza's defense of Dot is another problem. If Dot is town and Pizza is scum, by knighting for a likely lynch Pizza sets up to accrue more townie points.
If Dot is scum, scumPizza would know and shouldn't be defending the slot as strongly. (Unless the slot is continuing gambit behaviours and will have a last minute change of heart)
If Dot is scum, townPizza is reading him all wrong and that doesn't mesh with what I've seen of his play, albeit limited.
Answer me this, any other player gets outright caught lying to town, what should happen to them?
Which, I mean... duh.
That... makes total sense.
I don't want to tinfoil at this stage but jc Tubba, I got spooked just then for a few minutes.
Be townie. That has to be what you randed or I don't wanna live on this planet anymore. If you end up being scum and the vast differences aren't due to extensive coaching, you pulled a fast one on me legit and I want to shake your hand. Or regardless of alignment. Because if you randed town I also want to applaud your game because I can identify your process as being villagery. Either way, I'm glad to see this is your new standard of play. I'd play with you anytime if this is how your new standard is. Tbh the old standard was fine, but if you town like you behaved last game, then it gets difficult to read you.
So, other than Tubba's suspects, and I can follow the process on how he ends up there, I really don't have a reason to suspect tubba.
And the above progression on Voxx's gambit seals that for me as "not a lead".
It really comes down to Jenna, Killjoy, and Colin for me, with Colin looking the most villagery of the three but not a lock. I wanna know what his supposed power is that he used on me n1.
So...
Who wants to be in the town?
I'll put it up for grabs here. Come and get your lock town read, and watch the other two names die a fiery death.
The cost is sitting in an interrogation room with me grilling you for possibly a whole week, hitting you over the head with the kitchen sink until you wish you had randed wolf because town's obviously going to lose if I can't town read you.
If that's what you like, then you're insane, but I guess you really want your team to win, whichever team that might be. So please choose "hurt me plenty" as your Doom difficulty setting and let's get the party started.
If not, I'm leaving Colin as my villager depending on what he's claiming his power is, and I'll ride or die with the trio of scums I mentioned.
If it's the only way to get you off this Cardboard Killjoy tunnel then so be it. I'm in.
I've really only skimmed today btw. If the question has to do with a post today, either quoting or post numbers will be appriciated. (I plan on really getting into this tomorrow)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
If it's the only way to get you off this Cardboard Killjoy tunnel then so be it. I'm in.
I've really only skimmed today btw. If the question has to do with a post today, either quoting or post numbers will be appriciated. (I plan on really getting into this tomorrow)
Good. And Colin basically has to agree or I'll drop him out of my town and then town loses if he's town.
Jenna, well. Who knows with Jenna. Their chosen style is quite anti-social. I really wanted the two of you. I don't think you and colin are w/w and Jenna is the townie. But if that happened to be the case, Jenna's gotta volunteer or we lose.
The procedure will be simple, but it will take effort on the parts of each volunteer.
I can see how either you or Colin could be wolfy. In Colin's case, he's just not posted often enough and the exchange with Bear could be w/w distancing that looks good as opposed to bad/obvious. I haven't written off Bear as being a terrible wolf altogether, just that they were obvious this game.
In your case, I've said why you feel different, and the other two don't talk about you enough and vice-versa.
If that's wrong, I gotta find out how you're town, and if there's any suspicion left on Colin, which is a minor amount, then I gotta find out for sure that he's town if he's town.
So the process is intended to determine which of you is townier, as opposed to meant to accuse or bring additional evidence against you.
The catch is that I want to pose the questions to both of you, tailored to fit your game and what I think would trip you up or be difficult to answer if I were in your shoes and if I were a wolf, but I don't want either of you to answer immediately.
I want you both to agree on a date and time, and post the answers to all of the questions I have for you within 5 minutes maximum of one another, so the wolf among you cannot mimic the villager.
You were both here today within not that many hours of each other, so it should be possible to schedule a time for both of your answers to be posted simultaneously. And I'll want you to meet that commitment and post almost at the exact same time, as close as humanly possible.
So if we can find a date that both you and Colin are mostly free, where your free time should overlap and you can meet a commitment, then we'll lock in the date and time, and I'll compose my questions and pose them to you both.
This will be a bit of a project, but I'm pretty confident there's no way the wolf is gonna pass the challenge. The villager should always win this one.
I'll need a couple of days to look through your isos and compose my questions once Colin agrees, so give me Wednesday this week or later, no sooner. We have plenty of time in a day phase here, so I'm not in any rush. You'll also need time to read my questions and answer them. Could take you an hour or so.
You don't have to give your whole life story away, just recommend a specific date you know you have nothing planned, where you'll always be able to meet the commitment. We'll just have to line up the availability. Probably a weekend day for most people but you never know. Maybe you both have boring thursdays like me. I don't need to be present so my own schedule doesn't factor in.
When are you guys free? I get the feeling Colin's availability will be the thing we have to work around.
If we can't make it match up schedule wise in 2 weeks somehow, that's odd but fine. I'll just pose my questions in real time and get the response in as close to real time as I can.
Have to write them down, and catch you guys whenever you're online. It's not as good, but it should be difficult to use the opposition's answers when you're under time pressure.
Timing kills wolves or trips them up. The concept of time gets a little lost on forum mafia where you have days to answer, and the timestamps get lost in the shuffle. But time is the fire in which we all burn.
I'm off after 11 Pacific time US most days. I'm off the next two so I can work on this game a bit then.
So the plan is to lightning round between myself and whoever agrees until one of us reveals themselves to be scum? That sounds like fun.
Possible issue: What if you're scum and whoever is in this lightning round with me is also a townie? Then we autolose. I need to look you and Voxx over carefully tomorrow to see if I can shake this tinfoil.
Still in unless I figure out that your slot is scum though.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I am free in 3-4 hours but I get the feeling that Pizza is ignoring me, once at I perform at the top, pages upon pages with nothing addressed to me, and then a second instance when the sign-ups close before I can even volunteer, I am discarded without worth. I'll play your game but let it be known that this is not a Thing I Do Lightly, it is an openly hostile confrontation where I must persevere a pious slog through horse*****. If such a matter is not resolved, I will relinquish the reins I have graciously volunteered without thanks or even acknowledgement for donning them.
Alright I'm back! Been away too long and I've already been written off which isn't great. Anyway first order of business is that even though I have a 95% confidence level we should not be lynching today. Pizza's over the top confidence means he wants to push through the game win and not take advantage of the extra flip we have to narrow the PoE down.
Vote: No lynch
Next I am a one shot vig. I targeted Jenna N1 and my ability failed. I hadn't fully read the game but I'd read enough to tell that Jenna was an opaque wall of cryptic-ness and needed to be sorted out. Anyway my shot failed, and I didn't realize I'd lost it until I tried to shoot Dota last night...
I need to think about Colin's claim because I'm not sure what it means for my PoE. Could be as simple as it just meaning colin is the last scum with Pizza and Dota, but I thought Colin was the towniest townie so I need to think through every angle.
I believe it occurs when no lynch and no kill are chosen two or three nights in a row. I'm not sure on specifics beyond that. But moreover I made myself available nearly this whole day and Pizza never showed up so the reins are off.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So... Like... Pizza's argument is just... bad.
Like his whole scumteam is based around who didn't talk to Bear. I obviously can't speak for Jenna, but I was townreading him for the early game. Well, first it was because his posts had a lot of words and I was lazy in the beginning. Then I read them and thought he was critically thinking and leaned town on him for that. Bear replaced out, and then Grape came in.
His whole argument is "you didn't talk to Bear" and "you're cardboard"... neither of which are actually arguments considering Grape isn't confirmed scum like he's making him out to be.
I'm not sure I follow his read on Grape either. Looking through his Bear ISO its... incomplete? Like, saying that there's one scum in Osie/DotA is a valid opinion based on the quick building shadow wagon. There's likely a scum on it. Apperently he was townreading Jenna at the time, so it came down to the two most obvious: Osie and DotA. I recall having a similar thought back then, and I still think DotA is scummy for sure.
He's tunneling like crazy on me and Grape. He's making conclusions on these assumptions. Hm. Reaver: You were saying Pizza/DotA/??? scumteam. Does Grape fit into that? Does Pizza KNOW Grape is scum?
Or... Pizza/Colin/Grape? Colin came in to confirm Pizza's role out of nowhere.
So things we know about the setup:
1 Full Tracker
1 1-shot vig
Claims:
1 additional 1-shot Vig
1 Jailor variant. Blocks target, and prevents active abilities on target (including NKs?) Wait also has a 1-shot commuter? AND a 1shot messager??
Whatever Colin is.
IDK what Colin is but I'm curious how it fits into the setup.
Given the Tracker (and all the actives claimed), Mafia probably has quite a few active abilities as well. Tracker needs something to hit.
I recall multiple one-shot vigs in a setup before I think? I need to check that before I make my decision on whether or not Grape is scum for that.
Pizza's role is crazy. I'm not sure what to make of it. But, assuming all rolesclaims are true... his role fits well with the two vigs IMO. It weakens each of the roles, but the fact that there's two means that one probably doesn't hit Pizza and probably doesn't get RB'd.
That said, Grape claimed RB, and Colin is claiming that he got RB'd when he targeted Pizza so there's probably a scum RBer.
Hmm. I'll wait for Colin's claim to see what that tells me.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
But let's use up more of the deadline first. It's a 2-week window. We can talk before voting guys.
Also, no meteors as far as I know. The mod MIGHT implement a rule that says we can't no lynch at some point, but I've never seen a game go no lynch indefinitely.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Isn't no-lynch bad ev for town? We will lose a townie without even a chance to lynch scum? Break that reasoning down for me please?
Honestly, I find it hard to ignore the fact that Grape's claim seems pretty bad considering King Meg's town vig flip. Is the game likely to have two town vigs?
Maybe role claiming is the way to go, but the people who are lying, can just keep lying.
@Everyone
We need everyone to be chiming in with their thoughts on this. Pizza can't be the only one talking. If he's pure it's still not good because it gives us no insight on other people's thoughts.
Speaking of Pizza, if you haven't looked at my arguments for how Voxx/Pizza could be scum, please do and say what you think about it.
I'm against a no-lynch and mass claim but will compromise to get things moving.
I don't think no lynch is the right choice here, if we are in Mylo(very likely) then we lose a townie tonight to the nightkill and tomorrow is Lylo, or town successfully prevents the NK(or scum just choose not to NK) and we're in the same place tomorrow. We need a scum lynch today, and right now Grape is definitely the right candidate, especially since he's sticking to his claim without even commenting on or acknowledging the fact that Meg flipped Vig.
Dislike No Lynch just because of the players pushing it. With all the claims scum might have a 1-shot Vig, which means a No Lynch would lose us the game.
Reaver: You were saying Pizza/DotA/??? scumteam. Does Grape fit into that? Does Pizza KNOW Grape is scum?
Or... Pizza/Colin/Grape? Colin came in to confirm Pizza's role out of nowhere.
I do not believe Pizza and DoTA would bus grapefruit as hard as they did on D1-2 if they were all scum.
Colin's claim is a Thing we need to sort out but we might want to wait until Day 4 to do so.
You gave some setup speculation but didn't draw many conclusions. What do you think all the claims mean for players' alignments?
We eliminate a suspect with a no lynch. I may be mechanically deficient but I at least know that for a fact.
Not necessarily. Sure if the NK is prevented then whoever prevented it can claim so and we have two town practically confirmed BUT, if I were scum I'd just choose to not NK and then claim that I protected the NK. It leaves too much to chance. Why are you against lynching Grapefruit? What are your thoughts on the possibility of a 12 player game having 2 vigs?
Dislike No Lynch just because of the players pushing it. With all the claims scum might have a 1-shot Vig, which means a No Lynch would lose us the game.
No Lynch never makes sense when we have a literally outed scumbag in Grapefruit's slot.
Jenna advocating it makes them either lock scum or a townie who is intent on sabotaging their own team for reasons or no reasons, whether it makes sense to them or not, it's a hard veto.
We should never ever no lynch when there's outed scum. It' beyond foolish.
Note: We don't even have to lynch Grapefruit. He's a duh-lynch any day.
I want to find the other two for sure, and if we're convinced we're always gonna lynch there, and there are no strong objections, I want a head to roll that isn't grapefruit. He's clearly the scum they can sacrifice and still win. And we're always lynching him.
I want to kill the not completely outed scum today and build consensus on that. Failing that, the default lynch is the outed wolf. Always lynch a wolf before you consider a no lynch.
They could easily have shots they've been sitting on. It's too big a risk. But we have three lynches and if we agree that X and Y should both be lynched, then Y can be lynched even if X is an outed wolf.
I'd rather discuss those names while there are still townies alive that will be dead in those later rounds.
You're only ever gonna get people's opinions on the POE today, before people die. That's the entire purpose behind not just slamming votes on grapefruit.
If the wolves are outside of the names I mentioned or in my town, then we need to get there. We don't get there by not thinking and just hammering away.
Town wins when the FINAL wolf is lynched, and we always lose the game if we don't lynch the FINAL wolf.
Grapefruit is outed, they're not the final wolf. We even have yet another name before we can even get to the final wolf. That's what this day is for.
Wasting it on a no lynch is advantageous to the scum team because there are people alive they're never going to be able to lynch, and they can kill them and remove their thoughts and voice from the game.
It's a hugely pro-wolf move and is a big reason why Jenna should hang. But we'll see what else we can find today before that becomes a decision, and not just an idea.
pizza's idea sounds fun enough to do, so I don't see why not.
FWIW I can full claim, but I'm pretty much only doing it to sate pizza's curiosity. I don't care too much either way, there are pros and cons to both.
To be honest, I don't need you to claim unless I suddenly start suspecting you more than Killjoy and Jenna.
If you have a power town needs like a doctor, the mafia should be killing you. Otherwise you could protect a villager and then we're not at Mylo anymore. Especially if we lynch the wolf roleblocker, then you become extremely dangerous. It's a big reason why I am thinking about a not grapefruit lynch even though we always always always lynch him.
Having an extra lynch to play with is really a bad idea to give the town, because then I massacre all 3 of my top suspects and potentially consider you at final 3, which is why it's daffy for you to not kill if you're a wolf, and it's daffy for the wolves to not kill you either tonight or tomorrow.
That's just if you're a doctor. What if you had something more useful like a true jack of all trades role and could blast a scumbag in the face with a 1 shot vig because they were silly enough to leave you alive. What if you had an actual cop check, while at Mylo it's not useful to anyone but you, it's still useful TO YOU. And then you'd be alive with a peek, which is dumb to let happen.
Basically, if you having an active power is real, it's suicide to keep you alive.
If you're a wolf then claiming a magic bag power is suicide because you were outside of my lynch list until you claimed such a power.
Now I have to consider you more seriously, but mainly for thoroughness. I'm not super on top of what would be considered balanced for town on this site. Just feels like town has plenty of powers and another one seems out of place depending on what it is.
I'm glad you've explained night 1 pizza, as I was going to bring it up today. I'm going to confirm that targeted actions fails on pizza night 1, and also point out that based on his approach since joining the game paired with him fully declaring what happened n1 has him firmly in my town. I'm not sure I agree 100% with the scum circle but it's very close to where I'm at right now.
Obviously the shenanigans at the close of yesterday has greatly helped us and we have a very clear lynch today. Fortunately that gives me plenty of time to solve everything.
Now that is surprising.
Town shouldn't have so many active abilities in a 12 player game that provide information.
Like, I could buy a limited doctor or something, perhaps a full doc. But a doctor doesn't typically get told that their action failed.
Maybe it's the game host's style, but I'd prefer if you clarified this claim, as I don't have you as lock town.
And if Killjoy or Jenna is a villager, I gotta figure out how that's possible.
Who is your scum circle? Because you're the only other person it should be, if it's not the three I named.
I would definitely believe it's the game host's style that leads to such info being given out, I've found that no results should be given for doctors/roleblockers, non-detectives. You don't get to know that it fails.
But silver isn't from my sites/culture and differences in hosting style can happen even so.
But we had a vigilante, that's typically worth one wolf in the right hands (the right hands)
A tracker is worth half a wolf, maybe a full wolf. Tracking is weak but can catch a wolf murdering. More likely to find town power roles or wolf power roles that they can spin as town power roles.
My role is definitely weak, commute is basically worth.... I dunno. 0.1 wolves. Not even that. It's not for solving, but it can keep a strong player alive who typically dies on n1. The kidnap is like a weaker version of a jailkeep, because jailkeep doesn't stop town investigations (like a tracker). So kidnapping will interfere with the town tracker, which is good, I like roles that take the punch out of investigative powers, because cops suck for the game yet people refuse to play without them.
So, a jailkeep is a combo of roleblock and doctor but gives the downsides of both. You jailkeep a scum, they cannot be vig'ed that night. You jailkeep a town power, they can't use their actions.
Kidnapping interferes with both the vigilante and the town tracker, lessening the strength of both roles. Fits rather nicely into the setup so far, and a full kidnapper instead of a one shot might have been really worth it to whoever gets the role.
The messaging power just seems like bells and whistles. Doesn't do much, if you have no investigatory powers. I suppose I could have written my leans list as my last will and testament and given it to a townie I trusted during the night phase, in case I died. And in my case in particular, that might be worth a wolf. But usually it should be worth nothing.
Town had kill power, town had investigative power, town has a bells and whistles role to keep the game from being boring. Call it a limited roleblock/doc with a single functioning commute. Pseudo jack of all trades.
All I can think of would be like a doctor who has been unsuccessful in protecting people, and I really don't like putting a doctor in a game with a vigilante and a cop in a 12er.
You'd need mega powerful scums for balance, like... they'd need at least a 1 shot vig, they absolutely have to have roleblocking powers, and a godfather would be preferred, in this case it'd have to be a ninja to go against a tracker.
Hell, my own commuting power would be more useful for the wolf team than not, if it wasn't a one shot deal. Instead of a godfather, a 1 shot passive bulletproof scum would counter the town vig, at least long enough to survive a night.
Speaking of passive, that's the next piece of this mystery. Gotta refer to the OP.
If Tubba claims like a 1 shot cop, it makes sense. But if not, then he's got some other kind of power, and then why does Colin have a power?
Most people should be vanilla townies.
If my scums list is wrong it will come down to Tubba and Colin's claims. I really like Tubba this game though, that's a nice jump from low Fantasy in terms of strength of wolfing if it's the case. I like pleasant surprises like that, even if it costs me a game, I like being beaten by good wolves as opposed to losing to obvious ones.
Why is everyone targeting Voxx n1? If it's not a doctor protection or a Watcher you really shouldn't be there on night one since he was widely townread.
So now my guess is that one of Colin or Tubba is a watcher, but what the heck was the other person doing at Voxx's location on n1?
You don't claim to have commuted on n1 unless that's what you were actually doing. Tracker or Watcher both can catch you that way, apparently.
You absolutely have no reason to claim attempting to kidnap Jenna, because the action should detect me at Jenna's location last night, and if Jenna was detected at ANY location last night, it also contradicts the claim.
And claiming to have a messaging power should trigger the watcher as well, even if all I'm doing is leaving a message.
I'd know that instinctively if I was a wolf, so I'd never be making such a *****ty claim in such a defensible and town-read position, where I can be caught in a lie that serves no utility and doesn't even mislynch anyone.
That shouldn't explain either Tubba or Colin's claim to know of Voxx's lie.
But now I'm curious about mass claiming. Town shouldn't have many/any passive abilities.
We already have a commuter, so a 1-time bulletproof vest is a bit overkill on the townies who can't die at night aspect, even if they're limited, that's still awfully frustrating to the wolf team contending with vig and investigative.
Stuff like a miller would technically be passive, but shouldn't be of any note unless town had a cop. It's also kinda iffy to include it in any game, let alone a mini.
Innocent child is usually revealed on d1/n1 or is an active power, you can do it any time and it reveals immediately or at the end of the phase. So that shouldn't be passive at this point.
Masons would not be an active ability, but it wouldn't really be an ability of any kind, either active or passive. It's just extra info given to a vanilla townie.
Bomb/gunsmith, that's sometimes possible. It is passive. Someone targets the bomb/gunsmith and ends up dying. But that's usually meant to limit an already too strong town and it's also super variance, because scums targeting the bomb lose a scum. That's too much kp for a town. A bomb or gunsmith could be worth a full wolf, all you have to do is get town read and wait, and collect your wolf pelt eventually. I don't like including that.
What passive would town have?
If town doesn't have a passive then it's the scums who have a passive. Passive would be ninja status, the ability to do what you need without being detected at the location. Godfather would also count as a passive, I don't think we have one if we have a tracker, and especially if we have a watcher as well.
1 bulletproof vest is also passive. Scums could have one of those.
Game host doesn't tell us a difference between active and passive abilities unless they're in the setup, or unless they're standard copy-paste setup info they always use.
I think we have to mass claim, as it is most likely myslynch-lose anyway versus a town vigilante, scums have to have 3. And it's typically 3:12 when town has powers, or 3:13 when town doesn't. Let's hear everyone's powers. It's too late to test most of them, but it's still good to factor them in with our skepticism faces on.
More likely not to detect me at all actually, unless the reason I got blocked was a passive power jenna had, like a strongman.
Strongman makes sense if town has a doc.
If it matters, if my wolf team is wrong, we need to use the time and talk it out. I need the full claims from everyone.
Make certain you follow the rulebook when claiming.
2: When generating (or faking, as applicable) reads, please do not use angleshooting or out of game knowledge to the best of your ability. This means do not use the timing, reasons, or order of substitutions and modkills to influence others, do not use the timing or phrasing of role PMs to influence others, do not make alignment bets with out of game consequences, and do not use “trust tells” or similar. This list is not exhaustive.
6: Do not directly quote your role PM or any private communications (QuickTopics, etc.) when posting in the main game thread. This includes mason chats and scum chats. Please paraphrase - if you are in doubt, ask me before posting! This is a modkillable offense.
Be careful.
If you simply have out of thread comms, you don't know if the other person is townie. That's useful to the scum team if they're in the neighbor chat and gives them an advantage to counter town's other powers.
A lover team both dies when one dies, and giving them a mason or neighbor chat is also frequently done. Just experienced that in the last game I played on my home site. Wolf and townie lovers, sharing a neighbor chat. We lost because I couldn't convince the townie in final 4 to lynch their own lover partner, even though it would have satisfied their win condition. I was convinced the final wolf was in the lover team, but I picked the wrong partner, so the villager had skeptical face about lynching their buddy after that.
The rule about not quoting chats is also often there to make it extra illegal if a wolf throws/sabotages a game, and is often a copy/paste rule. We probably don't have any neighbor or lover chats, and almost certainly no masons, but I needed to think about it.
I'm open notebook. You see what I think.
I think a mass claim is unnecessary at this point, but if the consensus agrees that we should, then I will.
Noted.
Time to walk away.
Well, you're going to at the very least recall what prompted your comment, because that's quite a leap to go from Voxx claiming to be roleblocked to Voxx is lying, without any knowledge.
Now you're claiming you had no actual knowledge.
So your first outing as a villager, you decide when someone says something as simple as I was roleblocked, your response is "you are lying"?
Why?
Even if you don't remember exactly what you said, you sure as heck know what you were thinking.
I need a detailed explanation for this, because it threatens to push you out of my town if you don't give a good answer.
If any of my wolf reads are wrong, it's Killjoy, most likely. I like the cardboard cut-out tell, but I don't have a ton of meta on KJ, and my case is that he looks similar, but not the same as last game, and wolfy people really didn't talk about him, and he didn't really talk about wolfy people.
If that is right, great, the game is solved. If that's wrong, he looks scummy by pure coincidence.
If I start to read any villager scum, Killjoy becomes town.
If Killjoy is scum, me switching off of him likely loses the game. So I need massive, full cooperation from Colin and Tubba locking them both down as town.
I'm being thorough, and we need to know who our villagers are to win.
____________________________
411
426
428
This seems to be the progression, to jog everyone's memory on that.
Ok. Tubba's comment more prompted by Killjoy's comment. So far it looks like he didn't claim knowledge Voxx was lying, but was speaking in hypothetical terms prompted by someone else.
Only later on, after I made the solo decision to go back on Voxx's gambit and literally confirm that Voxx was lying, did Tubba accuse me of lying.
Well after I claimed Voxx was lying:
Which, I mean... duh.
That... makes total sense.
I don't want to tinfoil at this stage but jc Tubba, I got spooked just then for a few minutes.
Be townie. That has to be what you randed or I don't wanna live on this planet anymore. If you end up being scum and the vast differences aren't due to extensive coaching, you pulled a fast one on me legit and I want to shake your hand. Or regardless of alignment. Because if you randed town I also want to applaud your game because I can identify your process as being villagery. Either way, I'm glad to see this is your new standard of play. I'd play with you anytime if this is how your new standard is. Tbh the old standard was fine, but if you town like you behaved last game, then it gets difficult to read you.
And the above progression on Voxx's gambit seals that for me as "not a lead".
It really comes down to Jenna, Killjoy, and Colin for me, with Colin looking the most villagery of the three but not a lock. I wanna know what his supposed power is that he used on me n1.
So...
Who wants to be in the town?
I'll put it up for grabs here. Come and get your lock town read, and watch the other two names die a fiery death.
The cost is sitting in an interrogation room with me grilling you for possibly a whole week, hitting you over the head with the kitchen sink until you wish you had randed wolf because town's obviously going to lose if I can't town read you.
If that's what you like, then you're insane, but I guess you really want your team to win, whichever team that might be. So please choose "hurt me plenty" as your Doom difficulty setting and let's get the party started.
If not, I'm leaving Colin as my villager depending on what he's claiming his power is, and I'll ride or die with the trio of scums I mentioned.
I know exactly how to mess with the wolves here and find the villager in that group of three.
This has never been tried before in the way that I'm thinking of.
Please sign up as a volunteer to be interrogated by me, if your name is Jenna, Colin, or Killjoy.
If I get at least 2 volunteers, this is going to be EPIC.
There's no way the wolf team can be prepared for this idea. It's going to solve the game.
Here are the rules:
That's it.
Volunteers, please!
I've really only skimmed today btw. If the question has to do with a post today, either quoting or post numbers will be appriciated. (I plan on really getting into this tomorrow)
Good. And Colin basically has to agree or I'll drop him out of my town and then town loses if he's town.
Jenna, well. Who knows with Jenna. Their chosen style is quite anti-social. I really wanted the two of you. I don't think you and colin are w/w and Jenna is the townie. But if that happened to be the case, Jenna's gotta volunteer or we lose.
The procedure will be simple, but it will take effort on the parts of each volunteer.
I can see how either you or Colin could be wolfy. In Colin's case, he's just not posted often enough and the exchange with Bear could be w/w distancing that looks good as opposed to bad/obvious. I haven't written off Bear as being a terrible wolf altogether, just that they were obvious this game.
In your case, I've said why you feel different, and the other two don't talk about you enough and vice-versa.
If that's wrong, I gotta find out how you're town, and if there's any suspicion left on Colin, which is a minor amount, then I gotta find out for sure that he's town if he's town.
So the process is intended to determine which of you is townier, as opposed to meant to accuse or bring additional evidence against you.
The catch is that I want to pose the questions to both of you, tailored to fit your game and what I think would trip you up or be difficult to answer if I were in your shoes and if I were a wolf, but I don't want either of you to answer immediately.
I want you both to agree on a date and time, and post the answers to all of the questions I have for you within 5 minutes maximum of one another, so the wolf among you cannot mimic the villager.
You were both here today within not that many hours of each other, so it should be possible to schedule a time for both of your answers to be posted simultaneously. And I'll want you to meet that commitment and post almost at the exact same time, as close as humanly possible.
So if we can find a date that both you and Colin are mostly free, where your free time should overlap and you can meet a commitment, then we'll lock in the date and time, and I'll compose my questions and pose them to you both.
This will be a bit of a project, but I'm pretty confident there's no way the wolf is gonna pass the challenge. The villager should always win this one.
You don't have to give your whole life story away, just recommend a specific date you know you have nothing planned, where you'll always be able to meet the commitment. We'll just have to line up the availability. Probably a weekend day for most people but you never know. Maybe you both have boring thursdays like me. I don't need to be present so my own schedule doesn't factor in.
When are you guys free? I get the feeling Colin's availability will be the thing we have to work around.
Have to write them down, and catch you guys whenever you're online. It's not as good, but it should be difficult to use the opposition's answers when you're under time pressure.
Timing kills wolves or trips them up. The concept of time gets a little lost on forum mafia where you have days to answer, and the timestamps get lost in the shuffle. But time is the fire in which we all burn.
So the plan is to lightning round between myself and whoever agrees until one of us reveals themselves to be scum? That sounds like fun.
Possible issue: What if you're scum and whoever is in this lightning round with me is also a townie? Then we autolose. I need to look you and Voxx over carefully tomorrow to see if I can shake this tinfoil.
Still in unless I figure out that your slot is scum though.
FWIW I can full claim, but I'm pretty much only doing it to sate pizza's curiosity. I don't care too much either way, there are pros and cons to both.
Vote: No lynch
Next I am a one shot vig. I targeted Jenna N1 and my ability failed. I hadn't fully read the game but I'd read enough to tell that Jenna was an opaque wall of cryptic-ness and needed to be sorted out. Anyway my shot failed, and I didn't realize I'd lost it until I tried to shoot Dota last night...
I need to think about Colin's claim because I'm not sure what it means for my PoE. Could be as simple as it just meaning colin is the last scum with Pizza and Dota, but I thought Colin was the towniest townie so I need to think through every angle.
Vote: No lynch
Ok I'm here gonna read up on stuff today to see what's what.
Like his whole scumteam is based around who didn't talk to Bear. I obviously can't speak for Jenna, but I was townreading him for the early game. Well, first it was because his posts had a lot of words and I was lazy in the beginning. Then I read them and thought he was critically thinking and leaned town on him for that. Bear replaced out, and then Grape came in.
His whole argument is "you didn't talk to Bear" and "you're cardboard"... neither of which are actually arguments considering Grape isn't confirmed scum like he's making him out to be.
I'm not sure I follow his read on Grape either. Looking through his Bear ISO its... incomplete? Like, saying that there's one scum in Osie/DotA is a valid opinion based on the quick building shadow wagon. There's likely a scum on it. Apperently he was townreading Jenna at the time, so it came down to the two most obvious: Osie and DotA. I recall having a similar thought back then, and I still think DotA is scummy for sure.
He's tunneling like crazy on me and Grape. He's making conclusions on these assumptions. Hm.
Reaver: You were saying Pizza/DotA/??? scumteam. Does Grape fit into that? Does Pizza KNOW Grape is scum?
Or... Pizza/Colin/Grape? Colin came in to confirm Pizza's role out of nowhere.
So things we know about the setup:
1 Full Tracker
1 1-shot vig
Claims:
1 additional 1-shot Vig
1 Jailor variant. Blocks target, and prevents active abilities on target (including NKs?) Wait also has a 1-shot commuter? AND a 1shot messager??
Whatever Colin is.
IDK what Colin is but I'm curious how it fits into the setup.
Given the Tracker (and all the actives claimed), Mafia probably has quite a few active abilities as well. Tracker needs something to hit.
I recall multiple one-shot vigs in a setup before I think? I need to check that before I make my decision on whether or not Grape is scum for that.
Pizza's role is crazy. I'm not sure what to make of it. But, assuming all rolesclaims are true... his role fits well with the two vigs IMO. It weakens each of the roles, but the fact that there's two means that one probably doesn't hit Pizza and probably doesn't get RB'd.
That said, Grape claimed RB, and Colin is claiming that he got RB'd when he targeted Pizza so there's probably a scum RBer.
Hmm. I'll wait for Colin's claim to see what that tells me.
But let's use up more of the deadline first. It's a 2-week window. We can talk before voting guys.
Also, no meteors as far as I know. The mod MIGHT implement a rule that says we can't no lynch at some point, but I've never seen a game go no lynch indefinitely.
Honestly, I find it hard to ignore the fact that Grape's claim seems pretty bad considering King Meg's town vig flip. Is the game likely to have two town vigs?
Maybe role claiming is the way to go, but the people who are lying, can just keep lying.
@Everyone
We need everyone to be chiming in with their thoughts on this. Pizza can't be the only one talking. If he's pure it's still not good because it gives us no insight on other people's thoughts.
Speaking of Pizza, if you haven't looked at my arguments for how Voxx/Pizza could be scum, please do and say what you think about it.
I'm against a no-lynch and mass claim but will compromise to get things moving.
I do not believe Pizza and DoTA would bus grapefruit as hard as they did on D1-2 if they were all scum.
Colin's claim is a Thing we need to sort out but we might want to wait until Day 4 to do so.
You gave some setup speculation but didn't draw many conclusions. What do you think all the claims mean for players' alignments?
No Lynch never makes sense when we have a literally outed scumbag in Grapefruit's slot.
Jenna advocating it makes them either lock scum or a townie who is intent on sabotaging their own team for reasons or no reasons, whether it makes sense to them or not, it's a hard veto.
We should never ever no lynch when there's outed scum. It' beyond foolish.
I want to find the other two for sure, and if we're convinced we're always gonna lynch there, and there are no strong objections, I want a head to roll that isn't grapefruit. He's clearly the scum they can sacrifice and still win. And we're always lynching him.
I want to kill the not completely outed scum today and build consensus on that. Failing that, the default lynch is the outed wolf. Always lynch a wolf before you consider a no lynch.
They could easily have shots they've been sitting on. It's too big a risk. But we have three lynches and if we agree that X and Y should both be lynched, then Y can be lynched even if X is an outed wolf.
I'd rather discuss those names while there are still townies alive that will be dead in those later rounds.
You're only ever gonna get people's opinions on the POE today, before people die. That's the entire purpose behind not just slamming votes on grapefruit.
If the wolves are outside of the names I mentioned or in my town, then we need to get there. We don't get there by not thinking and just hammering away.
Town wins when the FINAL wolf is lynched, and we always lose the game if we don't lynch the FINAL wolf.
Grapefruit is outed, they're not the final wolf. We even have yet another name before we can even get to the final wolf. That's what this day is for.
Wasting it on a no lynch is advantageous to the scum team because there are people alive they're never going to be able to lynch, and they can kill them and remove their thoughts and voice from the game.
It's a hugely pro-wolf move and is a big reason why Jenna should hang. But we'll see what else we can find today before that becomes a decision, and not just an idea.
To be honest, I don't need you to claim unless I suddenly start suspecting you more than Killjoy and Jenna.
If you have a power town needs like a doctor, the mafia should be killing you. Otherwise you could protect a villager and then we're not at Mylo anymore. Especially if we lynch the wolf roleblocker, then you become extremely dangerous. It's a big reason why I am thinking about a not grapefruit lynch even though we always always always lynch him.
Having an extra lynch to play with is really a bad idea to give the town, because then I massacre all 3 of my top suspects and potentially consider you at final 3, which is why it's daffy for you to not kill if you're a wolf, and it's daffy for the wolves to not kill you either tonight or tomorrow.
That's just if you're a doctor. What if you had something more useful like a true jack of all trades role and could blast a scumbag in the face with a 1 shot vig because they were silly enough to leave you alive. What if you had an actual cop check, while at Mylo it's not useful to anyone but you, it's still useful TO YOU. And then you'd be alive with a peek, which is dumb to let happen.
Basically, if you having an active power is real, it's suicide to keep you alive.
If you're a wolf then claiming a magic bag power is suicide because you were outside of my lynch list until you claimed such a power.
Now I have to consider you more seriously, but mainly for thoroughness. I'm not super on top of what would be considered balanced for town on this site. Just feels like town has plenty of powers and another one seems out of place depending on what it is.