I'm around-ish. I'd be willing to lynch Dot, Pizza or King Meg.
@Pizza
What do you think about my analysis of Voxx's play? Like, suspend belief for me and forget you subbed in for him. Is there anything there?
@Dot
You were my second choice for scum on the Shadow wagon, after Osie. If you, Osie and Vaimes are town and continuing with the supposition that at least one wolf is involved (or not?), what do you think was going on?
@Meg
Torg was almost a nonentity to me, and your subbing in and claiming no intention to catch up with the game seems....bad. I understand your point about it being irresponsible to your scum team to act that way, but isn't also irresponsible to your town team?
I find it scummy you're ignoring potential evidence when we have 25 hours to decide a lynch, and you also have no plans to review it at some point in the future. I don't think a Townie would ignore solving the game to that degree. Scum have a couple motivations for that though - primarily being lazy and giving themselves the freedom to move onto however as advances their mafia win condition.
I think you lied to exact degree you just admitted: you read the OP and nothing else from before you replaced in. This is mostly tangential to my main point.
Avoiding my actual questions, twisting my words, and more or less sidestepping the substance of the post I made.
This is a guy who saw blood in the water and pounced.
@Megs why are you inviting us to drink wine on how much of the game you've read?
And Pizza clearly was trying to lampshade the lie so he couldn't get called out on it. But that doesn't make it scummy or prevent it from being townie...
Self-preservation instinct is scummy.
Also if you got RB'd N1 as you just claimed why didn't *you* call him out on it?
Answer me this, any other player gets outright caught lying to town, what should happen to them?
I'm not even the one who lied, but I'll tell you this.
On other sites, in games with detectives, most games, vanilla townies claim to have peek results, so the actual cop can reveal them while not outing himself. This is called fakepeeking.
Another common tactic for vanilla townies is to claim a power or act like they have one to draw a murder. That's what Voxx did here. I am not a vanilla townie but the power I have is ~worthless. I have a bag of tricks, like being able to send a message to another player. Not helpful since I don't have an investigatory power.
Voxx was just trying to draw a kill. The main reason why I denied that move, was because after I die, it will be revealed that I have an active power, or at least one active power (the message, for example). But, because he claimed to be roleblocked, if I die town will believe that he was roleblocked on night one and that means that town will have been fed incorrect information from a then-confirmed townie.
That's almost as bad as leaving the wrong peeks when you're actually a cop. Voxx was not roleblocked on N1 and I immediately opened the game by clarifying his lie.
But I can give you more lies. I've claimed cop with a guilty peek on someone as a vanilla townie before, and gotten guilty people lynched, then I got killed and was revealed to be a vanilla townie. I've claimed correct innocent peeks on people and been killed, thinking I was the cop that way.
One time I was the cop and claimed to be bulletproof on day 1 in my opening post and asked "for the cop to scan me" and if they found me guilty to feel free to reveal me, and if not, keep silent. I went on to scan 3 guilty people that game, without doctor protection. Town won because I lied.
I happen to lie often as town. Mafia assume that townies tell the truth, but this is a game of lying. And lies can be effective.
I could have come in here today with a guilty peek on Grapefruit and said lynch him, he's guilty. I think he's that guilty where I'd hit scum a large amount of the time if I made such a claim, and got him lynched.
The problem with that is I've seen townies do that and hit a townie. And Grapefruit, well, he looks guilty enough as it stands. His iso and bear's iso are ridiculously, sickeningly scummy. Almost tom-last-game levels of scummy. If you don't lynch him this game I'm pretty sure that's GG to the town.
Instead, you folks have been focused on shiny distracting things. I feel like because I'm pushing there, some of you don't even want to look at grapefruit, you want to go hunt your own wolves. I applaud that, but, you know, don't let the guy who is openly wolfing go.
If town lynches Dota, Tubba, or Colin tomorrow, you will be doing so over my dead body, which will be spinning.
Megiddo probably flips wolf here, but that doesn't help you. If you lynch the scums in the wrong order, they get away, and have greater control over the narrative. King Torg had no village points and Megiddo entered the game scummily, he's an easy get if he's scum.
You keep overlooking Grapefruit and it will bite you in the ass come endgame.
Voxx really didn't need to bother drawing the kill. Widely townread and apparently is a fear kill a lot of the time anyway.
I could have kept quiet about his lie easily, but if it came down to a mass claim come endgame, someone could claim town roleblocker, they could intentionally not kill that night, and force any lynch they want. Having a dead confirmed townie telling you they were roleblocked when they were not is potentially game losing mechanically.
This is me being fastidious. Any lie I make is not designed to ruin the game even if it goes badly. I've fake claimed masons with a fellow vanilla townie before, but we both came clean when we got CCed.
At that point, town decided all 4 of us were innocent and they were right. And town still lost because they lynched the guilty people in the wrong order and the scum that bussed won.
It matters which guilty person dies. I've won so many games killing my own partners in an unexpected order. Megiddo is being left out to dry here. Grapefruit was the one they can't afford to lose.
This is a clever post but your strategy I understand now: kill them with words.
In this post we have the following general progression:
1. I revealed the fact that Voxx lied because his lie would have hurt town if I died without doing so.
3. I lie often when I play mafia. Here are some examples of me doing that and why the reasons for me lying were town motivated.
3. Ergo, the lie doesn't matter and I'm town.
He's only making point three implicitly here, note, but I want to you think critically about what he did here. It's effectively a bait and switch.
Take away point 2 and look at this again:
1. I revealed the fact that Voxx lied because his lie would have hurt town if I died without doing so.
3. Ergo, the lie doesn't matter and I'm town.
See the problem? He's using an unrelated fact, that *he* lies often as town for what are admittedly good reasons, to cover for a lie that *he states himself* was only damaging to the town.
Unstated? That the motivation for the lie was bad. I will tell you right now that this lie likely has scum motivations. Voxxicus doesn't pull stunts like that as town.
I will also bet you a shiny dollar that you didn't even read his big post!
I'm the vig, I was RB'd last night and expect to be again tonight.
See above. Why did you not call out the RB lie?
The people quoted in this post are more likely to be scum than not! Possibly not Grapefruit, but please grill him on why he didn't counterclaim the roleblock lie Tomorrow.
Bye! It's been fun. Love you all.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Unvote actually gimme a sec to read through them and see if there are any actual discrepancies and then we can go from there.
TOO LATE BUDDY
...I really thought it was one more vote.
Why do you say Grapefruit might not be scum? He just counterclaimed and hammered you.
It just seems to brazen to actually try and pull that as scum? but if he was already a likely lynch candidate than yeah he's just tryna speedhammer and get me outta here.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Unvote actually gimme a sec to read through them and see if there are any actual discrepancies and then we can go from there.
TOO LATE BUDDY
...I really thought it was one more vote.
Why do you say Grapefruit might not be scum? He just counterclaimed and hammered you.
It just seems to brazen to actually try and pull that as scum? but if he was already a likely lynch candidate than yeah he's just tryna speedhammer and get me outta here.
Pizza is hard pushing GF, and I had some doubts as well, so he was definitely not clear. I just kinda don't know why he wouldn't have just played out being unsure and let us stumble into a no lynch.
Granted, this is all irrelevant if you're scum, but your reaction to being lynched doesn't really fall in line with scum trolling, so just gonna assume you're town.
and nah i'm not scum trolling. like I said this is too bad of a strat as scum.
HOWEVER it's actually an interesting concept to try since it would, as scum, give my buddies "good" reasons to get on my wagon.
Be very smart about doing wagon analysis on me. Look for who got on, when, and why. Really think about it. I've provided my suggestions already, but don't handwave anybody's vote because "i was being obnoxious" or whatever.
I was shut up and shut down this game. That is clear. Who tried to do this? Those are your scum.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I didn't interact with all of you so there is a high chance that I just literally didn't see all three scum in my time in the game. Significant possibility of false positives here. But reverb/pizza/gf makes sense in my head.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
OK so really now, Reverb's progression on me was very bad. Read through our brief exchange and how that went down. As always think critically about what is being said and what is NOT being said.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Apologies for the delay, I'm pretty sick with some kind of head cold with fever/chills and all of that. I appreciate your patience. Vote Count 2.Final Megiddo - 6 (DoTArchon, Jenna Tolaria, Reaverb Tau, Askthepizzaguy, shadowlancerx, Grapefruit21) (L-0)
Askthepizzaguy - 1 (Tubba Fett)
Not Voting - 3 (Megiddo, Colin, Killjoy) Megiddo was lynched as of post #601. He was Blade, Town Vigilante.
shadowlancerx has died in the night! He was Roderic, Town Vanilla.
Livelist:
1. TubbaFett
2. DoTArchon
3. Askthepizzaguy r. Voxxicus
4. Reaverb Tau
5. Grapefruit21 r. A Bear
6. Jenna Tolaria
7. Colin
8. Killjoy r. Empoof
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
NO ONE PLACE A VOTE!! Not even a single vote, by anyone, against anyone!
The lynchee is obvious, but do not allow an early hammer.
The wolves can just say "welp I guess he was guilty after all" and vote him, and pile on a townie's vote on him. That can limit our discussion time and we obviously need it. Grape can even self-hammer to cut us off.
Don't vote yet, please.
----------------------
(Preconstructed overnight post incoming. I can't be arsed to remove the bits on Shadow)
Ok.
I have a lot of stuff I want to go over, but first, please understand... I'm in Norway. I started my day almost 23 hours ago, and what I did all day was learn norwegian, visit norwegians who were speaking norwegian, had dinner, and then visited with my wife's friends who also spoke norwegian, and I got home past midnight. If you do Sudoku puzzles for 5 hours straight, your brain is going to be a little bit tired, more tired than if you had just done a normal day. And, when you hear someone speak a foreign language that you don't understand fully, it's like your brain is doing puzzles the whole time, with no break in between. I'm absolutely spent, but I couldn't miss day opening, because I really, really, really can't have you guys early voting here even a little bit and allowing an early hammer, killing our discussion time. So I need a big big favor from everyone. I need you to sit tight and allow me to get some actual sleep, and during that time, I need you to not vote, even for Grapefruit.
That being said, I keep going through what I want to say over and over again, and I'm just not satisfied with anything I've got. The night has been an emotional rollercoaster for me, and I'm either over-explaining stuff, or coming off sounding cocky and arrogant.
To put it plainly, I have solved the game to a high degree of confidence. I will walk you through the steps on how I got there on each person, which should be evident by now on two of them, and one is already outed, but the third one is a reversal of a not-locked town read, and I also improved the confidence levels of my townies and read Shadow's alignment in a way I can feel fairly confident on.
Me
Tau
Tubba
DoTA
Shadow
Colin
(distance)
Killjoy
Jenna Tolaria
Grapefruit
That's your scum team.
Briefly, before I make big wall posts going into detail.
Grapefruit/bear's behavior was enormously scummy to me yesterday, but bear's posts, while indicative for alignment, were a slog to read through in close detail. Still, I had the time overnight.
Bear is not as good at being scum as grapefruit. They were struggling to post, give reads, or make anything they did believable, but it fooled enough of you long enough for them to make it through the round with their head still on. But a few townies, including Voxx and Shadow, were able to read them scum. Most are dead now. And they're outed, so those people were pushing a scum to death on day one and came up a little short on the votes, and then Shadow and I also pushed on Grapefruit on day 2. Those are your starting townies, if you're still confused on how to read this game. Start with the people who pushed bear out of nowhere, almost to death, and only failed due to lack of consensus.
Now read those posts by Bear very carefully. In one of them, you are going to see very badly acted "soft-distancing", where you pretend like you don't know someone and like they're really mysterious to you. I'll point out which post and lines to look at, but it should be clear that the behavior is intended to be soft-distancing. It's low risk behavior to make people believe you're not connected on a team, without having to push that person or otherwise act in an elaborate manner, to convince people you are not w/w. It's what wolves who are scared to interact with their partners do, and bear's game reeks of being unable to handle randing scum here, because they're tense, nervous, and masking it with inane commentary and question marks appended to statements.
When I came across that instance overnight, it was on Jenna Tolaria, which conflicted with my non-lock townread of them.
That town read was based on the things I said in my iso. I'm trying to find villagers, after all, and Jenna was acting townier than Torg was, and I even gave them a slight edge or equality with Colin. But as many folks have noted, the behavior is deliberately obfuscating something, and it's not on the level.
In any case, with Torg being revealed to be a townie, that meant I definitely have a wolf in my village. The reads on Dota and Tubba and Tau are all rock solid. And with grapefruit being lock scum, it's easy to see where the town read on shadow comes from given his vote pattern. Still haven't iso'ed him, I'm solving him based on his vote pattern and pushes. They were serious pushes, so the only thing that's left to read his alignment is my assessment as to whether or not he's a *****ty/selfish wolf or a team player. From everything I know about his reputation, he's not a *****ty wolf, and his play while under vote pressure certainly discounts the selfish idea. If he's not a *****ty or selfish wolf, then he's not bussing a partner to death on day one over an easy townie mislynch on Osie, who had made a lot of enemies on day one and was a townie. There was even another alternative, Dota, on day one. I read him town, so that should also have been an easy mislynch. When you've got 2 mislynches, you don't hard bus your buddy, no matter how much they're struggling. I would never do this.
That just leaves Colin, Killjoy, and Jenna, where two of those names are wolves. I already explained why Killjoy is not selling me this game, he's a cardboard cut-out of Killjoy. A similar shape and familiar avatar, but it's two dimensional instead of three.
So between Colin and Jenna, I was looking for one wolf. Bear's posts distance softly from Jenna specifically, basically giving an excuse not to have extended dialogue with Jenna. But it got me to go back and re-read Jenna, and at this point, the tell is a combination of the overall obfuscation, the pushes on villagers all game, in fact yesterday pushing basically the only person who the wolves could potentially mislynch. Solid reason to suspect them and put them out of my town, but not a lock.
And there was something else I noticed, as I was reviewing killjoy, bear/fruit, and jenna. All of them basically exclusively talk to dead villagers or the lockest of my villager reads. They don't talk to or about each other very often. I think Killjoy quotes 1 post by Jenna in the d1 and most of d2 timeframe, and what was said to/about it was completely irrelevant to solving the game. Jenna puts bear and killjoy in their null list for most of the game, or close to null, nothing strong either way, focusing all their "scum" accusations on the folks that have flipped townie or are really townie, not really discussing or pushing inside bearfruit/killjoy that often. And bear, they pretty much only discussed irrelevancies and talked about a bunch of people they would be willing to lynch, and all of those people look really villagery to me.
So, knowing that grapefruit was outed, I used the only useful active ability in my bag of tricks. I kidnapped Jenna, which forces them to commute. It's different from a jailkeep action, because with a jailkeep, you can at least scan for alignment of the person in jail. While they're commuting, they can't do any actions or have any actions performed against them.
Why I picked Jenna: My action is useful if I protect a villager, but with prime targets of myself, Tau, Shadow, and Dota as people the wolves pretty much absolutely have to murder, I have a 1:4 chance of hitting right. And they could always murder tubba and still get a kill. (UPDATE post-flip: My ability failed, which means I was certainly roleblocked or otherwise interfered with.)
But, if I instead use my action as a roleblock, and I have my scum team correct, then shooting inside the scum team has a 1:3 chance of being right, and I can also do a little guesswork to narrow that down further.
Grapefruit is outed. If the village has a roleblocker, they'll typically block there. So it's pointless to put the team kill on Grapefruit if the team believes the town has a roleblock. With the death of a tracker and vigilante, and how it says in the OP that tracking and roleblocking may interfere with the mafia teamkill unlike in some other games, they have to be wary of a roleblock.
Therefore, if they're smart, they won't put the team kill on Grapefruit.
Killjoy is also somewhat risky, as I've put him as my next most likely suspect and I have no reason to read him town with grapefruit revealed as scum.
The person I had been town reading until mid-night this last night phase was Jenna, about equal with Colin but not lock.
If someone is to do the crucial team kill, and have it not be interfered with, it's gotta be the wolf who the wolf team believes will not be roleblocked.
So I guessed Jenna and crossed my fingers I'd stop the mafia's team kill.
If no one died last night, I would now have the mechanical evidence I need to convict Jenna, and that means Colin is pretty much clear, as I was only lynching one of Jenna and Colin.
Grapefruit being outed, and Jenna never being the mafia team's kill shot onto a townie, that means the mafia team holstered on a critical night with a ton of villagery people that need to die before they do, or they killed someone they needed to mislynch to win.
I don't buy either theory, so Jenna is absolutely outed on no-kill, caught in the act of trying to shoot my village.
(Update: As I said, I was blocked)
Which means mad wolf number three is always gonna be Killjoy, for the cardboard cut-out tell.
Now, I could try to impress you by finding all the posts and making a big multi-quote wall that looks amazing, astounding, and like really good detective work. But I don't have the energy to do that right now, and if you can't be arsed to read this post and go look and see for yourself if I am correct, then such a wall would be a waste of my time.
I was also going to softly berate you guys for scum reading each other, and I ranted a little bit on how Megiddo couldn't even figure out I was town when I was literally screaming and posting howling wolf pictures about how wolfy Grapefruit was and how wolfy bear was and why, and how I buried them under a metric crapton of evidence that they were guilty, to no avail. And this was the guy that counterclaimed and hammered his vig claim. So, Megs not getting that I was a townie under those circumstances, means that we lynched the fourth member of the wolf team yesterday. They were always shooting a villager last night if they survived, so lynching him saved 1 villager's life, and I would probably have saved a second villager's life last night if I hadn't been blocked. Unless you guys have astounding reasoning that I find persuasive that it's not Killjoy, somehow. A masonry claim might do it, depending on who claims it with him. That's not gonna exist in a game this size, but it'd need to be that mechanically locking, from people I absolutely trust.
I said many things in most of my preconstructed rejected posts, and they were written when I was on an emotional high.
Now that I've come down, and I am dead ******* tired, this post is what I'm gonna settle on.
Guys, you silly villaging guys, stop with the crazy tinfoils on each other. Bear was the key to busting this whole game open. Killjoy doesn't talk to Bear, Bear doesn't talk to Killjoy, Jenna doesn't read either of them strongly wolf or townie, Bear struggled like hell and advocated lynching their own villager read, Grapefruit is outed scum and you've had days to re-read the game and see who still alive had been trying to get that kill the most, and it was me, with a side of Shadow on d1 and wavering Shadow on d2.
Dota was pushed to death by scums on d1 but Osie died instead. He's still being used as an occasional whipping boy, and it's all based on the vaguest weakest crap from the most null for alignment parts of day one. Give that ***** a rest, already. It's really dumb at this point to be so focused on such a small swath of the game state when we have MUCH more alignment indicative behavior from literally everyone by now.
Tubba is just obviously a townie. He's nothing like Low Fantasy. Doesn't mean his reads have panned out, and he's gotta stop suspecting me of all people and worse, Dota. But the man's trying to win the game for town.
Tau is literally the villageriest person I've ever seen in any game ever played. Look at my ISO of him. Look for yourself. If he's a wolf give him the win, because almost no one is that good at wolfing.
Shadow can't be wolf read after pushing outed Bear and wolfy Jenna rather than the villagers we lynched instead of those options. Otherwise he's just been playing a solely village-sided selfish wolf game designed to make him look like a badass. Which is fine. If your teammates are willing to roll over and just be punching bags as their sole contribution to the game and that's how you think you can win, be my guest. Shadow doesn't seem like the kind who is either that selfish or that bad at being a team player or a scumbag in general, because ***** like that doesn't pan out come endgame where you've lynched wolves and still didn't die.
That leaves Colin versus any of my wolf reads. That's a big nope on me lynching Colin before those. I have mechanical info on 2 wolves and a "duh, he's obviously a wolf, this isn't the same guy one game later" read on the last one, and Colin just looks like a villager. So I'm going with the majority read. We've run out of time to test them both I think.
That's the best I got.
Lynch the scummy people. Those aren't the people you've been pushing hard, unless your name is Shadow.
I need my village with me on this, because I'm ****ing tired, and I'm tired of losing hard fought games to wolves who either appealed to emotion or just openly wolfed until they got caught and then skated to a nearly free win.
Villaging is ****ing hard work, it's harder to get your team on track, harder to play with less information, harder to build trust, you're doing it all blindfolded, all you have to do as a wolf is get one body past the goal line.
I've put in hundreds of hours into villaging in the past couple months, and I don't have ***** to show for it, but a string of dead wolves, and losses in spite of that. One always gets away.
Winning isn't everything, but this bloodhound has been hunting for way too long without a bone.
In the words of Doctor Evil, Throw me a frickin' bone here. Lynch three scums and never lynch inside the village.
I'll be online later today to talk to my village and walk them through the process, but this post has taken me hours to write, re-write, throw out, and write again, and I'm going to be over 24 hours awake by the time I finally get to sleep. This is going to ruin my entire Saturday. Addendum: And the deadline has come and gone with no game host. I'm tired, Silver. Get well soon, but I wish you'd open the game.
If I'm to give you this much of my will, strength, energy, experience, and desire to have my team win, I need you to slog through this post, respect my wishes not to vote, and immediately begin to ISO Bear.
Look at Bear. Everything is connected to Bear. They're an outed wolf, and their posts give the whole game away on top of that.
Bear proves Dota is town. Why? Look at their posts, you can tell. That's Bear pushing a townie.
Bear and Killjoy and Jenna soft-distance from each other but only talk to everyone else. They ignore each other all game.
KillJoy is hollow, a shadow of his usual self.
Jenna is just openly obfuscating and pushing an entirely pro-wolf agenda. If Torg had flipped scum, I'd have been able to put them into my town for good, but not now. That one is the one that got past me.
Don't let any of these wolves get past you.
I have only one final request of you, if you've read through this post.
Because I am pissing all over my self-imposed word limit. Seems I can't help myself. I am compulsive and I probably gotta retire, as the game is sucking down my life.
If I'm to retire from the game, I want to go out with a bang. Kill every last effing wolf. Do it for me, to cap off a career of hunting wolves, and still having a lame barely 50 percent win rate as town and nothing close to that even for most of this year, despite pouring my heart and soul into this hobby. Do it for yourselves, since you invested a month into this game. Just keep killing those guilty people until it's over. Don't stop killing wolves until the game host says to stop.
Just win.
Someone here deserves a bone, because he's been a goddamned loyal dog for too damned long to not get one fricking bone for his sleuthing efforts.
Just to repeat, because it was buried in my mountain of words,
Grapefruit is outed by counterclaim of the town vigilante who we lynched instead of Grapefruit yesterday against my repeated insistence that Grapefruit was howling.
Also, I kidnapped (forced commuter) Jenna Tolaria last night, someone who the mafia should never have been trying to shoot, even if I was somehow wrong and a wolf infiltrated my town deep. Jenna was no one's lock townie and they were always a mislynch if they were not a wolf, not a murder candidate. But I was roleblocked, so... I didn't get the hard evidence I wanted.
Jenna looks guilty regardless.
I explained Killjoy in detail earlier, and I can do that again in more detail.
But you can absolutely see the three of them working together all game if you read those three as the wolves, and watch how they act from start to finish. And if that's not enough, I'll carefully explain how I got to town reads on everyone else, in case you have any questions. Put the tinfoils down and put your thinking caps on.
___________________________
Please, don't vote until I give my consent for the round to continue, because I earned the right to make a single request of you, by showing up and trying my heart out to be a good villager, only to end up feeling like it was a wasted effort. Use the time, talk it out. Because I'm gonna be dead so this is your last chance to talk to me, probably. I don't have ***** for additional useful powers and we can't have a town doctor in this setup unless the scum team is insanely stacked.
Sorry if I'm appealing to emotion here. If wolves can do it and win games based on just that, then villagers can do it on top of a mountain of painstaking work and attempts to build a village out of nothing, with not even a quarter of a round to work with. If we're gonna play with fake emotions, we're gonna also play with real ones. It's not personal, it's just business, and this game is very much my business.
One last thing, if you look at the timestamp on this post, for obvious reasons the above posts were pre-written and therefore were constructed. I needed to get through to you before you voted.
And, if I didn't stop the mafia kill last night, I was pretty sure I was dead anyway, so there was little need to prepare an alternative opener for today. I just throw all of this away and enjoy being dead.
Addendum post flip: The actual outcome was a little surprising. I honestly didn't think they'd waste a roleblock on someone who claimed to be able to message people and claimed no investigatory power.
DoTArchon
Reaverb Tau
Tubba Fett
Colin
I must sleep now.
Look to your left, look to your right. You're all villagers, to a high degree of confidence. You guys just need to get used to the idea.
I will entertain the idea that this is wrong, but not on most of those names, and only if you give my own analysis a fair hearing, when I'm able to sit here for 12 hours talking you through it.
Be back after sleep. Don't go anywhere. Let's bring it home.
Pizza, aside from getting me wrong in previous games, why are you just ignoring my alignment?
Because you sometimes push a very pro-wolf agenda as a villager. Between who you pushed and why (the why was the biggest issue) in the micro, and some of your reads / votes / how you got pocketed in the previous game we played together (look, I'm not suggesting I'm any better, I got pocketed by EL without even reading him closely), I can easily ISO you and find "evidence" you're a wolf, and it turns out, you're not a wolf. You're just someone who happens to look an awful lot like a wolf, that one time, and then the next time. In this game, you make beautiful pushes on folks like Jenna and Bear/Fruit, and then back away too easily. It sometimes looks like scum distancing.
You gotta take the wolves by the scruff of their neck and push them alllllllllllllll the way into the wood chipper head first, and don't let go until the howling ceases, otherwise it looks too soft, it looks like you just want to distance for credit, like Tom and Lngrrr did to each other while I lived last game.
You have been, for me, a minefield of false wolf tells. I always re-read the whole game, so when your iso is full of false tells, I have to re-examine my process on you. That process means I have to be skeptical of your process from a villagery standpoint.
And again, I'm not saying this to bash you or go ho ho ho look at me, ain't I hot *****, because I'm not. I promise you, I don't think that way.
What I'm saying is that you can be a competent villager and find other villagers, you can have excellent reads on wolves, you can even become widely town read, all of those things are the fundamentals I look for in a good villager. But, I'm looking for teams and I have to consider deep wolf possibilities. All it takes is one wolf who busses well. So I have to look at process.
And, process-wise, I don't follow your process a lot of the time. I don't know how you get from A to B, or switch back from B to A on a dime. I can't explain how you identify wolves or villagers. I see you doing villagery things, but that's just the surface.
Why does a villager insist that X and Y must be the wolf team based on nothing on day one, why does a villager back off his suspicions so easily other times, when the evidence should be strong that you should not back off. It seems all backward to me.
Granted, I just have these three games and a bit of isos in other games to go off of.
Yeah, that's the kind of ***** that was haunting me. I had to be able to say this before I became dead. Even the question marks were driving me insane waiting for day to start.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm back. Well I did my own painstaking analysis of Bear, since you should be starting by reading Bear, because Bear is an outed wolf and Bear posts Bear-ly any content and when they do, it spews a ***** ton of people townie who are still alive.
Grey = irrelevant, not game related bull*****. Filler, basically. Ignore this and you'll see how little guilty Bear actually did, which was half of what I was yellin about yesterday. Blue = Stuff pertaining to folks which leads me to believe this is bear attacking a townie. red = This is the stuff pertaining to Killjoy and Jenna Tolaria which leads me to believe they're partners. Bold, no color: A comment by me as an aside, in the middle of the quote.
My schedule this semester basically makes me unavailable or of very low availability on M/T/W because I have class and work (I'm a professor's assistant) which is why I decided to /in games on MTGS - being away for three days in a row isn't terrible when days are two weeks long. I'll probably be able to sneak in one or two posts (hi o/) but unfortunately I have to be a responsible adult and, like, do... things. This weekend is Canadian Thanksgiving, too, so I won't be around for most of Thursday and next Monday even tho it's a stat, probably. I'll probably be able to pop in? but like. Not during the day, lol.
I've also decided that I'm going to phonepost as little as possible this game because newcomb is right this site gives me the luxury of time and if I'm not home I don't have to post when I should really be doing other things. Ofc I'll be reading on breaks and whatever, and if you want me to say something super urgently sure, but like... when I don't have to, I'm not going to. I'm pretty sure you could make a prediction that a bear won't be able to help themself from making posts later, and you'd probably be right. For now, tho...
This is generally how I feel about this game so far:
I'm not used to Voxx being like this and I feel like I'm already in Wine Hell. People being like this about him is also weird for me, tbh. It's like... when you look in a double mirror and see yourself not-mirrored and are like "who the **** am i looking at??? this is weird????"
This one's about my slot, but it's clearly an attempt to push suspicion there indirectly/passive-aggressively.
I don't think the two week phase length is actually good for me, either. It doesn't actually feel like I'm in a game. I prefer my games to feel like something is imminently at stake, I think.. I think that what I actually want to play is 5/2... but the only site I've played on that reliably runs that phase length has been dead for a while. Rip FS.
Jenna, if you're going to be committed to RPing, I would prefer you go back to what you were doing before. Kanaya doesn't talk like that even when she isn't Typing Like This, and it's making your posts hella annoying to understand. (and if you're going to shorten people's names with pesterchum name shortening, why not like. decapitalize the first letter. come on.) (also the name shortening makes reading your posts like trying to read sheet music for me) (like seriously please stop)
This is soft-distancing from Jenna and what prompted me to go re-read Jenna.
Sorely tempted to just believe Shadow is town based on the fact that he got to H-2 so early in the game. I really don't think everyone who was on the wagon is town, and I don't think mafia would do that to a teammate? Plus, he's actually asking people why they're doing things, and also following up when they give their answers. It's good.
I feel like there's at least one wolf in Archon/Osieorb - Archon voted Shadow in RVS and then decided it was a real vote in #52. While it was a RVS vote at the time it was made, he felt the need to back it up with Actual Something. Now he's dismissed it as Not Actually Something That Ever Really Existed In The First Place (#102) while moving his vote to someone who agreed with him about it? Like, he's calling Osie shady for doing the same thing that he did? Does the concept of self-awareness exist here? (I would like #52 clarified if it wasn't... like,,, real?????) + Osie sheeping Archon's reasons for the vote with the near-immediate backdown after Voxx calls it out (and then? voting for voxx?) isn't that great, either. I don't think it's impossible for them to be together? but I don't think that one witch would immediately follow the other like that, especially since they're supposed to be long-time players or something... Mostly I just want them to fight each other and see what happens, tbh.
This is relevant to the read on DotArchon.
I don't understand Reaverb's reasons in #63 regarding the Archon/Shadow thing. Like, I don't think that simulposting asking someone to explain why someone else did a thing would have that effect? Also, him thinking I'm unable to read Vaimes when I correctly read him as my person-who-knows-my-role-and-alignment in another game a few months ago immediately is lol.
Not very indicative, but mentioning my top town read.
Voxx is here, too. "Several people" does not equal "one fontisian". Wyd.
Btw, Vaimes is town, y'all. You're welcome.
Part of why I suspected them. No process demonstrated on Vaimes. Don't just declare people are townies, say why. Otherwise it's not villaging.
I originally voted Colin for memes but I've decided that I'm not going to move my vote until he makes some actual posts. If I had more votes, Archon, Osieorb, or Reaverb would be fine, too. You can pretend I have a vote on all four of them if you want.
I can't technically rule out Colin and Bear, but this is an attempt to get more people to vote for Dota after the earlier excuse for a case, and also onto Osie who was town, and onto reaverb who I read very strongly town. I think Bear more likely shot at 4 villagers here.
Ok, I know the beginning of this post said I was here now, but I actually have to go to bed now? @ me if you need anything, I guess?
End of post. Already you can see why I have Dota and Tau as being much less likely to be Bear's partner, and this is where the connection to Jenna was made.
Going afk during the only time I'm available? Rude.
The concept of it being a secret that Voxx and I can read you is also extremely that image macro I posted.
I want Colin to actually show up, is the thing. Tbf, only one person voting someone usually isn't good for making them show up, but I'm going to try anyway.
I feel like if Colin hadn't done more than he did when he showed up, he would have been an easy additional mark to try to lynch, but I think Bear was just worried Colin would sniff them out, since Colin knows them. So they were a bit wary, and just tried to pocket Colin.
I also need to actually go over votes properly besides, like, reading the the thread? Haven't had time to look at machine stuff yet.
Osie, what is your definition of RVS? Also, why do you think that Archon/Voxx/(Colin/Tubba) are together? Also also, I don't know where the pun is.
Talking to dead townie.
Colin, can you give more than one line each on your reads that aren't Reaverb or Shadow? How do you feel about Archon and Osie?
Trying to persuade a townie to lynch Archon or Osie. Looking for material to either push against Colin, while leaving the option to pocket on the table. But, this much is conjecture, not a read.
Shadow, it was Jenna and I who called Archon out for doing that, not Vaimes...
Talking to dead townie. What you'll see in this ISO and most of the folks I will accuse is that they spend most of the game talking to townies, not each other.
Decides Colin isn't a threat and chooses the pocketing route, I believe.
I've figured out that the secret to phoneposting on this forum is to write in Google Docs and then copy it into the thread, btw. Docs actually has, like, a readable font, even tho you can't do formatting or anything. No quotes, but whatever.
Honestly surprised more people think that Archon is scum over Osie? I’m pretty sure that not a single person in this thread has given anything besides a scumread on Archon, actually. That feels really weird? Usually, people who get scumread by literally everyone aren't actually mafia. It's not universal, though. The only people Archon has actually expressed opinions on are Osie and Shadow, and those were both negative. Plus, besides Osie's interactions with Shadow, he feels better to me than Archon does. I kinda feel like I'm falling for some sort of trap, not sure whether or not the Osie townfeels are because I'm just hoping the people who have time to post are all town at this point. On the other other hand, for all the suspicion, Archon hasnt actually gotten that many votes... the only people who actually voted him so far are Jenna, Reaverb, and Torg. I'm going to have to reread the thread on my lappy to figure out this one, but it's 4 AM and I have a test tomorrow so, like, not now.
Look at how Bear behaves toward Osie and Dota. Dota is someone they've cased, and Bear uses the scum process of identifying the villagers who are getting the fewest village reads (in other words, reading the room to identify mislynchable townies) to decide who to push. This was another part of their process which made them look pretty much always scum when reading them yesterday. Basically, this is nothing more than blatant "these townies think X is scum, let's talk more about how scummy they must be, all these townies can't possibly be wrong".
So, what does that tell you about Dota?
I agree. He's a townie. The wolf team doesn't put him at 3 votes on day one, guys.
Hm.
It seems like most of the thread has forgotten that Torg exists, actually - only, like, three people are actually talking to him or acknowledging his existence.
This should have tipped me off to Torg's alignment, but it was fuzzy, just a mention. At the time, it looked kinda like cautious distancing. Kinda like "Oh, Torg is in this game. No alignment read on him tho."
@Reaverb Tau, Torg isn't in your reads wall even though you literally talked to him the post before... how do you feel about him? Also, Voxx doesn’t like it when people only use one x.
remember that Bear specifically suspected Tau, and is now giving more fuel to pick at Tau. This is bear looking for attackable posts.
@Killjoy - I started playing mafia 12 years ago, but two years ago I basically stopped to focus on irl/school. I un-retired this summer, but this school year is trying its best to force me to tap out again. Rip me. Also... we played in Gotham Underground together! The game that still makes Voxx sad half a decade later because he snuck his way in to a game with friends under a name people from MSPAFia didnt know him as and got shot N1 by Acio and Laset anyway! I was also town and definitely not RPing.
Here, this is the connection to Killjoy. Look, they're talking to Killjoy but demonstrate no suspicion, no townread, no process. his is all fluff, and is essentially the same thing as ignoring that Killjoy exists. Look how little they discuss/interact with KillJoy after this point.
@Osieorb18 - At the time you made 129, Empoof/Killjoy only had one post, so I’m surprised you were even light scum on him, tbh. I also don’t understand why you think Colin’s post shifts Empoof/Killjoy more towards town? Can you explain this further?
Nothing relevant here.
My thoughts on Jenna are: she's weird but I'm not sure if that's because she's mafia or because she's new. I'm content with letting her explore the game for now, basically. I'm wondering about how you went from "Wow, I hope she's town" to "let me write a long ass post and then vote her", though. Can you explain what changed for you? Most of those Jenna posts are from before you made your initial read...
This is also super relevant to Jenna. Puts Jenna as basically null, this isn't a read, but they're basically stating outright that they won't push there and are subtly indicating they want others to do the same. And look, Bear gets defensive toward annoying Jenna as soon as Jenna is cased, and voted. That's the connection.
@Voxxicus - I decided that reading you off of RVS posts wasn't very helpful, and decided to wait for you to come back and give Actual Real Content. I'm trying to fend off the paranoia descent into madness, but it's really hard with no info. I thought these phases would give me more time to think and actually try and balance the game with irl, but instead it's just me dying inside because I have too much time to think and nowhere to vent the cr*zy. Like your posts are good and Voxx-y but then I remember 166 exists and I know you know better than to post ***** like that and im dying squirtle
Subtle dig and Voxx to give more content, and seems to be holding a town read of Voxx hostage, depending on what he does. When they give a compliment they immediately cut back on it by giving a counter-example, so they can go either way on Voxx. Also, making excuses. They did this way too much on day 1, part of why I scum read them when I joined the game.
This post is one of the ones that are the most alignment indicative, and it is also the one I singled out when I tore Bear to shreds yesterday.
Trying to actually get into this game.
They're just lampshading the fact that they're really struggling to do anything villagery, because there's no denying it. Gotta make excuses the whole time. They feel self-conscious and guilty about their lack of actual content or contribution and want to fend off scum reads by pre-empting attacks against them for struggling, by admitting they're struggling. Part of why I scum read them yesterday.
Vaimes, the problem is that the only reason that those metas were like that is because Sotek forced everyone to act in a way that was +ev to him specifically for collecting data as long as he was the only one using The Machine. Everyone was enamoured with it, so they went along with it for years and years and years. Sotek didn’t really practice what he preached as far as voting went, either, btw. You can look that up. The only reasons why he voted outside of consolidation were to try to influence wagons in a way that gave him even more data. I know I’m town, and I don’t need to analyze my own votes to be able to read my own role PM… is basically the thing. Also, I’m trying a new strat. I don’t think it’s going to work in this game because it’s been dead air in here most of the time... Voxx says it works for him on this forum, though? The “sit back and watch other players do things without your influence in order to generate something as close to (wide text) spectator chat reads as possible”? I think that’s my wording and not his at the end there but I feel like with my IRL situation it’s the strat that makes the most sense for me rn. Even if I had time, regular Beruposting would drown the thread, so...
Talking about previous games and other irrelevancies. At Vaimes, btw. Just interacting with the dead townies and the ones they want to mislynch. That's all bear ever does this game, when they're doing anything at all besides stalling and posting irrelevancies.
As far as analyzing things from a votes perspective in this game, it’s mostly been trash so far. I’ve moved on to charting people’s town/scumreads because that seems more helpful to me than the scattered votes I’m seeing? I need more pen colours and a bigger sheet of paper, but mostly I’m just keeping track of hard town/scumreads right now. I’m still surprised that literally nobody is townreading Archon, but it turns out that Osie isn’t actually being townread by anyone either? Shadow has been getting some minor townreads, mostly for being the wagon target, I think, but… I think it would be useful if people ranked Osie/Archon/Shadow and gave reasons, tbh. Like, people are making read walls, so I can see where they’re at, but if you don’t give actual reasons for why people are where they are, you can just bull***** a list of names.
This process is all wrong. Villagers don't find wolves ever by simply identifying the players in the game getting the fewest town reads. That's just how wolves find mislynches. But more relevant to us solving the game, look again how Bear treats DotArchon. This is why Dota is town. They hounded Dota all day 1.
Things I actually got out of the machine…
Osie’s vote movements indicate that he’s most likely town, but he put himself in a position where, if he’s mafia, he has to be super ultra town in order to not just ******* Die from early misplays. He also has the worst positions/reasoning on the Shadow wagon. Besides that, though, his content is way better than Archon, in that it actually exists, he has more than one scumread (or read period tbh), and he’s actually engaging people. I feel like if the Shadow wagon hadn’t happened, this guy wouldn’t be getting as many scumreads as he actually is.
Also beginning to wonder if Archon’s team is just leaving him for dead, tbh? Literally nobody is willing to defend him or get him to explain anything, but hardly anyone is actually voting for him. After he got scumread by basically everyone, he disappeared, too. Maybe they’re just hoping we’ll consolidate on someone else? Going into antispew a week before deadline is just giving up...
I really, really, really just want Archon and Osie to thunderdome, tbh. It would help a lot.
Vote: DoTArchon
First highlighted Blue: This is how I really nailed down a scum read on Bear in the first place. Begins with a premise, that Osie is town, and after that, almost exclusively talks about how they might be a wolf. That was wrong and I literally screamed that at everyone yesterday. I should have gotten that lynch, guys. Seriously. How we didn't press this and even backed off just because Grape posted words, that hurts.
But also relevant, guys, seriously, look how they've been treating DOTA up to this point.
That's never wolf on wolf.
I don’t think Tubba and Osie are w/w. I don’t think anyone would try to bury a partner that hard. Same goes for Osie/Jenna. It’s possible that Osie is extremely comfortable because he knows that neither of them is getting lynched off of his pushes and is doing some distancing so that if he ends up as today’s lynch, one/both of them look a lot better? Jenna is also voting Archon and has dug in her heels about it for a long time, even though she scumreads both Archon and Osie. Tubba is voting Osie, and also did this, like, weird OMGUS post about Reaver/Osie/Colin? so if someone is more likely to be scum with Osie, it’s prooobably Jenna.
Feeling something like Tubba/Archon +1 or Osie/Jenna/ +1 isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Tubba probably isn’t with Reaver or Colin either? The reaction to the scumreads is… I mean, if Tubba's scared that his partner(s) are going to bus him D1 for no reason and is flipping the **** out about getting, like, two votes? maybe? We have time to resolve this, tho.
Of Note: Mentions that they think Osie is town before this point, and then says that Osie/Jenna isn't wolf/wolf.
So? Where's the part where they talk about how Jenna is a wolf? Where does Bear ever actually push Jenna?
Do you guys see it? I sure as **** don't.
So Osie is a townie, and Osie/Jenna isn't wolf/wolf, therefore.... let's lynch between Osie and Dota.
That's why I was scum reading them, and I highlighted this section in bold red. No one read my posts yesterday apparently.
Still pushing Archon, too, btw.
I can pull up votals from any point in the game, btw, so if you want the state of the votal at the time someone voted, you can just @ me and I'll dump it.
Fun Beru Facts: just realized that this is the first game I’ve actually played with Voxx in at least three years, maybe four? That’s weird.
IRL people keep inviting me to things because they haven’t realized I’ve started playing mafia again and I couldn’t even enjoy watching ******* Blade Runner because I want to have time to play the got damn game. I'll be around... today, though? It's 7 am, jesus. (By the way, my review is: Watch Psycho Pass instead. The first hour is just setup and it could have been a regular movie’s length. Twists are good, though, but unfortunately Psycho Pass already exists.)
Voxx, one of the main problems I'm having with this game is that I absolutely hate it when people aren't playing and yell at people for it all the time? And, like, now I can't really play because I can't use the forum on my phone, and I feel terrible about it. I can’t even yell at other people for not playing, because I can’t ******* post either. You should already know how I feel about this because my hate of it is a Known Beru Fact. I’d probably be posting more if Curse wasn’t trash, actually. Not, like, 700 posts, lol, but I’d actually be able to post when I’m not home which is usually when I have the time to - waiting for the bus, eating lunch, on break, whatever. Being smothered by my inability to actually play the game is making me feel p ambivalent about the entire forum, and I probably won’t play here after this. Trying to get over it, trying not to post about it, it’s affecting my gameplay so I guess I DO have to acknowledge it, I hate everything, etc. (Also, I feel like when I do make posts, very few people actually want to talk to me? It’s like people are sliding right past what posts I do get to make. Not sure if this is just me, though.)
Posts I write from notes are going to “feel pre-constructed”, to borrow Newcomb’s words on this, because I’m taking the notes I’ve already made and turning them into bigposts. I’m always going to edit what I’m saying because I’m writing things down when I think about them and then make it into something resembling a coherent post when I’m actually at my lappy. I’m not a stream of consciousness player.
Giant block of irrelevancies and stalling. They struggled hard.
Probably don't want to lynch outside of Dota and Osie today, mostly because I feel like if we don’t do it now, it’ll end up being terrible later? Also, I don’t feel like we have enough time to do anything else. The fact that nothing related to anything is really happening tbh is giving me insight into those people who are always like “wah d1 is useless”. I want something actually concrete in this game because actual flips and night actions feel like they'll help more since there’s very few posts to go off of. Was hoping that at least one person would have a reaction to me saying that I want Dota and Osie to seriously fight each other, but it feels like very few people actually care about what’s happened since the initial wagon on Shadow? I really wish they had actually engaged with each other seriously, because that could have actually been useful. If both of them are mafia, maybe we could've seen that they don’t really want to kill the other person or that they have tmi that they're both mafia and lynch both of them, and if only one of them is mafia, that person could have been forced to push something that they might not necessarily be interested in getting their hands dirty with? Probably not enough time left, but when I posted it, like, two days ago, there definitely was…
First Blue Highlight: Look, they cased Dota, voted Dota, and tried to push Dota to death literally all day one, never wavering.
That's never wolf on wolf. @Tubba, stop chasing Dota. That's all done with now. They're townie, gotta deal with it man.
And the rest is just more wall-o-struggling-wolf chattering. Hiding their lack of content under a wall of words.
Wagon on me feels like it gained traction out of nowhere... but I'd be really surprised if any of Vaimes, Voxx, or Shadow were actually mafia? It's going to be interesting to see what the tail end of my wagon is like if I actually get lynched. Meanwhile, Osie's vote feels like he was waiting for someone to provide him with a good enough reason to vote for me, tbh. Don't mind swapping to Osie if I have to.
My problems with mobile aren't ad-based. It's like... the text is literally like 5 pixels high in the post field when writing so I can't see ***** on my 2014 phone, especially while using flux (twilight) + the page loads very slowly and in strange chunks and it's only by grace that I've been saved from accidentally liking posts when trying to swap pages because it can suddenly load something and move the buttons around... but mostly the first one. I can't see the ***** I'm typing. It's bad. 0/10.
Trying to pocket the people who were wolf reading them. Then, they're pretty frozen, and going into anti-spew mode.
@Bear: Do you have an app that you can type in and copy/paste? I use notes (I mobile post 100% of the time)
I was trying to do that but I gave up because it wasn't really working for long posts and I couldn't see if it was actually copying the entire thing because it had this tendency to skip up and down and lag when trying to highlight a lot of things Frown now I just write my notes in Docs and turn it into one bigpost when I can get to the computer.
Everything that comes into your head about this game.
Give me a sentence or two about every player purely off the top of head.
Prompted by my predecessor, who was scum reading Bear, to actually give content, Bear gives us the following:
Ok, sure.
You're town. Do you want more words on why I think you're town? Not sure if that's useful because of your meta, but your posts on the subject are tending towards entering in the wifom olympics so I'm just going to write you off and see what happens.
"Please stop wolf reading me, o mighty Voxxicus."
Vaimes parked his vote on me fairly early and hasn't let go or wanted to pursue anything else, but if he's actually mafia then I'm seriously surprised he didn't just try to go for the hard pocket on me, because it probably would have worked? I know it's wine, but I'm townreading him off of this. rip vaimes.
This is relevant because it shows that Bear really is familiar with the strengths of pocketing as a strategy, and that's pretty much how they behaved toward Vaimes, Colin, and Shadow, and now Voxxicus. Basically, people they're afraid of, trying to get them to look elsewhere by handing difficult-to-read players a town read in exchange for don't kill me mister townie sir.
Was mostly giving Shadow a free townread for getting to L-2 so early? If he is mafia, his wagon miiiiight be pure. Don't think it is, though. Also don't think lynching him is a good idea... yup.
Pocket, and avoiding having to post actual content on Shadow. Blatantly saying the town read is based on nothing, by the way. "Free" means that.
Killjoy is... not-Empoof. Rip. Honestly probably one of the top people actually trying to solve the game right now, imo? I haven't seen anything scummy from him so I haven't really been thinking about him that much, and he doesn't really fit into any of my worlds.
OH HAY LOOK GAIS I MENTIONED KILLJOY.
Wow, what startling analysis. Earth-shattering, in fact!
Get rekt, wolves.
Colin's posts are really good and clear and pure and beautiful, but he never actually... voted anyone? Probably should have pushed him more on his reads instead of unvoting but there's only so much you can try to pressure someone to post with only one vote. Also wish he was more engaged, because I invited him here to play with him and now he hasn't..... really.............. played....................
Because sure, this is how wolf-Bear should post toward wolf-Colin. Or should I end that statement with a question mark?
Colin is town! Except, of course, for these reasons why he's not.
Great effing process. That's wolfy af.
Tubba feels like he's reaching every single time he posts a scumread? Definitely not w/w with Osie. His interactions with Osie are part of the reason why I wish that Archon was being wagoned instead - It's way more likely that Tubba/Archon is a thing than Osie/Tubba is a thing. Gets angry easily when people suspect him, and isn't really defending himself. His Osie/Colin/Reaverb OMGUS trifecta is... also not great. Accused Osie of flailing, but that feels more like he's projecting, tbh.
Does this sound like Tubba is scum, or Tubba is a struggling and attackable townie?
I report, you decide. (He's townie)
Of really funny note, look. Tubba is suspecting Osie, Colin, and reaverb, that's TWO PEOPLE that Bear pushed, and Bear thinks that trifecta is "not great".
Seriously.
That kind of backwards-ass thinking is not how wolves tar fellow wolves. That's when they don't actually have any reads and need a reason to attack an attackable townie. So even if they agree with your own damned cases, they must be scum.
Well la-dee-dah. Tubba willing to lynch all your scums, but his suspects list makes him scummy, Bear?
That means Tubba is also town.
Reaverb feels... antsy?, might be due to long phases with nobody around. He's actually trying to push people and do things when he could easily afk and not try to push outside me/osie/archon if he was mafia, tho. Definitely not with Archon unless he's hard distancing, could likely be with Osie. Sort of always feels mechanical and dry to me (more mechanical than dry, unlike you, who is the opposite), so if you explained the "wooden" toneread, that would be great.
I feel like how reaverb posted on day one should have been an easy argument that they were town.
How do you not put wolf!reaverb into your town list if you're a wolf? The only reason not to town read reaverb is if they're someone you might need to lynch someday.
Archon is... well, he exists. I want to see what his finished readwall looks like before deadline, and hopefully he shows up? If he is town, I don't understand why he felt like 52 had to be made, because it's really bad. He said it was a joke, but... that feels like a poor attempt to dodge. If I had to rank the people on the Shadow wagon, it would be Archon > Osie > Jenna > Voxx > Vaimes in descending order of scumminess, btw.
Dota is the most scummy, then Osie, then a rare mention of Jenna three names deep. The same person who was mentioned as possibly a wolf but never, ever actually pushed. Wow, bus them harder Bear, I'm gettin' the vapors, I do declare.
Probably should have focused more on Jenna today but I don't own a decoder ring. Reading her posts feels like I'm reading NG logs from Polarity Hunt. I don't want to play the synonyms game, I want to play the mafia game. I feel like she's going to survive way longer than she should just off the back of Homestuck memes and deliberate obfuscation. Would probably like her to prove that she doesn't have any problems voting Osie, but. Lol.
Yep. Look at this process where they push ever so hard against villager Jenna. Oh yeah, those suspicions and pushes were really fleshed out and they really ever wanted Jenna to die. I also have a bridge in new york to sell you.
Gettin a strong feeling they don't know what to do with their not-especially townread partner? Yeah, me too.
Torg is someone who's escaped my notice a lot but I think he's town? Don't think he'd call out Archon like that if they were w/w. Possibly could be mafia with Osie and Jenna because his read on Osie keeps changing but he wants to lynch both Osie and Jenna so ??? If there is a world where neither Archon nor Osie are mafia, then dude climbs way up my scum rankings.
Osie is strange? I feel like today's lynch has been forced to be between him and me and that feels really bad? If Archon and Osie are both somehow town and we wasted our entire day I'm going to *****. His posts are ok and he's actually been in the thread which is honestly... another reason I want to lynch Archon over him... but every time I make a theory about what he's doing, all he can say is "wow.... that seems like a bad plan......." to defend himself and I don't know if I'm being lolcatted at or what????
This took too long... tfw adult adhd. v Ov
By the end, predicts they'll end up both being villagers. I believe Killjoy said it best.
"Neat!"
And then Bear sauntered off into the woods, never to be seen again.
What we got instead of bear was Grapefruit, who was also scummy, for the reasons and arguments I laid out. But he had a much cooler head and a cooler hand. So, Bear is where all the really indicative stuff happened for partner-analysis and town spew.
Go read Bear's ISO. When you're done, I expect town reads on Dota, Tau, and since I buried Grapefruit and bear, as Voxx and as myself, I'm also in your town.
Your villagers you cannot hard read villager based on Bear alone are Tubba and Colin. But it's obvious that Bear is specifically wary of, and then pockets, Colin, and Colin falls for it because they know bear. It looks wolf/town to me.
And Tubba, posts almost the same suspects list as Bear and Bear reads them wolfy for it. So that's at least a light town read.
When you factor in Tubba is one of the top posters, actually talks, has a process, and actually believes in his own reads, that's a 1000 times improvement over Low Fantasy.
So, you can't lynch Tubba. Over my dead body you lynch Tubba.
That just leaves Colin as the only one left who is even remotely possible and, no. Not when Killjoy and Jenna look how they do and who they've spoken to, how they've treated each other and Bear/Fruit slot.
You never lynch Colin before you eradicate Jenna and Killjoy from the game.
If that's wrong, you gotta explain how. I don't see it.
End of ISO.
I never want to read any of these posts again. Don't force me to do so.
Voxx used a 1 shot self-commute N1. Then he lied about being roleblocked to draw the kill to himself, since the remaining powers were sucky. The kidnap can be useful but it's hard to mechanically damn or clear someone unless you're elite, and you can still be roleblocked.
To explain how Tubba knew Voxx was lying, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he had like a 1 shot cop scan, role cop, somethin, used it on Voxx, and got no results. Can't get a result on a commuter. And if you don't get a result, that can be suspicious.
I had 1 shot commuter that Voxx used, 1 shot kidnap I used last night, and my still unused for obvious reasons, 1 shot message a player.
I'll prove my 1 shot message a player tonight by sending a message to someone. Since we're always lynching guilty grape, we have the time to test the power.
Probably gotta send it to Tubba, but that's predictable, so maybe someone else we can agree is town.
Won't matter much if Grape is not the scum roleblocker, but if we got lucky, I can at least mechanically confirm my message power, and if I'm right, Tubba knows that I wasn't even in the house n1.
I am still solid on Dota, but I've seen wolves sometimes improve rapidly after being coached by a wolf team. And sometimes they really do have a learning curve that good.
But still, it's like a level 1 wolf jumping straight to level five and doing it convincingly. I would not put better than 1 in 20 odds on Tubba being scum, and the part where Bear pushes Tubba for having the same suspects as Bear is still super convincing.
Just, there's no way in hell Dota is scum. I'd believe Tubba is scum before it's Dota. And I don't think it's Tubba. A lot of bad things would have had to happen to thread the needle on him getting so far into my town, without any visible signs of guilt.
All you have is who he's pushing, and it's not his guesses, it's his process that I totally buy. It reads like a villager who is new.
Also, I'd in-game marry Tau and Dota just for their villaging process. We'd form a quartet with Benneh, the original "process" townie I in-game married long ago to win on 2+2.
Where have both of you been all my life. I could have used you guys in a lot of games I've played over the years. You make me want to play more often even though I know that's not a good idea.
I forgive everyone for scum reading megiddo's entrance. Dude was a wolfy townie.
Even his claim wouldn't have moved me, if I had been around. Not until he had suspects that made any sense and indicated a desire to solve using his own process. Like, Dota and Tau's process on Megs' entrance is precisely what it should be.
I don't know how someone can fake a wolf howl that well as a townie, but congrats.
Even Colin and Tubba's process is how I'm solving them. That's four townies on process alone, if the process tell works.
That's what's giving Tubba any town points, is his process. Colin is kinda eh, but it's his process that's pushing him quite distant from the nearest suspect.
I'd at least in-game date Colin/Tubba. No marry but it's really solid.
So I'm pretty sure the scum team is either (grapefruit/Jenna/???) or (Pizza/DoTA/???). I don't think pizza and grapefruit's roles are both in the setup. It's probably the former world, but I'm going to spend a few days re-reading the thread to make sure, and redoing my votal analysis without Jenna as lock-Town.
Jenna is definitely scum if DoTA is Town given how King Torg wagon was an instant replay of the Shadow wagon, and DoTA is definitely town if grapefruit is scum.
Does anybody disagree with the above? I see Pizza has similar thoughts.
Preferred order of lynching: First Grapefruit, then maybe Killjoy tomorrow depending on who dies tonight, then look at who's still standing.
Pizza is and has been a solid townread for me all game but I'm getting major flashbacks to my very first game of Mafia I ever played. Plotinus replaced in at the eleventh hour and proceeded to crush the remaining two townies in Lylo in a way that looks remarkably similar to how Pizza is playing here. Of course he had the benefit of everyone having already flipped and only had to convince the last two to turn on one another but it was an amazingly strong play that, since the team's aren't revealed in the spec chat, had me swearing that he couldn't be scum.
Grapefruit's terrible claim at the end of day 2 is also part of why I'm beginning to get paranoid about Pizza, he's been under some pressure but has never really been close to being the lynch. That claim could be him sacrificing himself for the greater good of the scum team, solidifying Pizza as town in the eyes of everyone else.
But before we get even remotely close to that I want to hear from Grapefruit why he claimed what he did, and then see him hang for it.
I'll wait for you guys to get caught up on reading Mount Pizza, and the rest of the game.
You need space to work. I will be around occasionally to respond to questions. Don't feel like I really need to do a gigant-ISO on Killjoy or Jenna at the moment.
If you guys need help getting on the same page I am, let me know, and I'll also walk you through what I saw in their posts that is problematic on its own, but also the connections to the other two.
@Pizza
What do you think about my analysis of Voxx's play? Like, suspend belief for me and forget you subbed in for him. Is there anything there?
@Dot
You were my second choice for scum on the Shadow wagon, after Osie. If you, Osie and Vaimes are town and continuing with the supposition that at least one wolf is involved (or not?), what do you think was going on?
@Meg
Torg was almost a nonentity to me, and your subbing in and claiming no intention to catch up with the game seems....bad. I understand your point about it being irresponsible to your scum team to act that way, but isn't also irresponsible to your town team?
Avoiding my actual questions, twisting my words, and more or less sidestepping the substance of the post I made.
This is a guy who saw blood in the water and pounced.
Self-preservation instinct is scummy.
Also if you got RB'd N1 as you just claimed why didn't *you* call him out on it?
This is a clever post but your strategy I understand now: kill them with words.
In this post we have the following general progression:
1. I revealed the fact that Voxx lied because his lie would have hurt town if I died without doing so.
3. I lie often when I play mafia. Here are some examples of me doing that and why the reasons for me lying were town motivated.
3. Ergo, the lie doesn't matter and I'm town.
He's only making point three implicitly here, note, but I want to you think critically about what he did here. It's effectively a bait and switch.
Take away point 2 and look at this again:
1. I revealed the fact that Voxx lied because his lie would have hurt town if I died without doing so.
3. Ergo, the lie doesn't matter and I'm town.
See the problem? He's using an unrelated fact, that *he* lies often as town for what are admittedly good reasons, to cover for a lie that *he states himself* was only damaging to the town.
Unstated? That the motivation for the lie was bad. I will tell you right now that this lie likely has scum motivations. Voxxicus doesn't pull stunts like that as town.
I will also bet you a shiny dollar that you didn't even read his big post!
See above. Why did you not call out the RB lie?
The people quoted in this post are more likely to be scum than not! Possibly not Grapefruit, but please grill him on why he didn't counterclaim the roleblock lie Tomorrow.
Bye! It's been fun. Love you all.
Why do you say Grapefruit might not be scum? He just counterclaimed and hammered you.
i didn't realize for a while that pizza replaced voxx d2 actually
Granted, this is all irrelevant if you're scum, but your reaction to being lynched doesn't really fall in line with scum trolling, so just gonna assume you're town.
HOWEVER it's actually an interesting concept to try since it would, as scum, give my buddies "good" reasons to get on my wagon.
Be very smart about doing wagon analysis on me. Look for who got on, when, and why. Really think about it. I've provided my suggestions already, but don't handwave anybody's vote because "i was being obnoxious" or whatever.
I was shut up and shut down this game. That is clear. Who tried to do this? Those are your scum.
read 576, 584, 585, and especially 589
pizza knows exactly what he's doing.
I didn't interact with all of you so there is a high chance that I just literally didn't see all three scum in my time in the game. Significant possibility of false positives here. But reverb/pizza/gf makes sense in my head.
OK so really now, Reverb's progression on me was very bad. Read through our brief exchange and how that went down. As always think critically about what is being said and what is NOT being said.
Vote Count 2.Final
Megiddo - 6 (DoTArchon, Jenna Tolaria, Reaverb Tau, Askthepizzaguy, shadowlancerx, Grapefruit21) (L-0)
Askthepizzaguy - 1 (Tubba Fett)
Not Voting - 3 (Megiddo, Colin, Killjoy)
Megiddo was lynched as of post #601. He was Blade, Town Vigilante.
It is now Night 2, please do not post. Night Actions are due by 11:00 PM Eastern on November 3rd.
Vote Count 1.8, Vote Count 1.9, Vote Count 1.10, Vote Count 1.11, Vote Count 1.12, Vote Count 1.13, Vote Count 1.Final
Day 2: Vote Count 2.1, Vote Count 2.2, Vote Count 2.3, Vote Count 2.4, Vote Count 2.5
Livelist:
1. TubbaFett
2. DoTArchon
3. Askthepizzaguy r. Voxxicus
4. Reaverb Tau
5. Grapefruit21 r. A Bear
6. Jenna Tolaria
7. Colin
8. Killjoy r. Empoof
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 3 deadline is 11:59 PM Eastern on 17 November.
It is now Day 3. You may post.
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
Before anyone does anything, STOP and read this post!
NO ONE PLACE A VOTE!! Not even a single vote, by anyone, against anyone!
The lynchee is obvious, but do not allow an early hammer.
The wolves can just say "welp I guess he was guilty after all" and vote him, and pile on a townie's vote on him. That can limit our discussion time and we obviously need it. Grape can even self-hammer to cut us off.
Don't vote yet, please.
----------------------
(Preconstructed overnight post incoming. I can't be arsed to remove the bits on Shadow)
Ok.
I have a lot of stuff I want to go over, but first, please understand... I'm in Norway. I started my day almost 23 hours ago, and what I did all day was learn norwegian, visit norwegians who were speaking norwegian, had dinner, and then visited with my wife's friends who also spoke norwegian, and I got home past midnight. If you do Sudoku puzzles for 5 hours straight, your brain is going to be a little bit tired, more tired than if you had just done a normal day. And, when you hear someone speak a foreign language that you don't understand fully, it's like your brain is doing puzzles the whole time, with no break in between. I'm absolutely spent, but I couldn't miss day opening, because I really, really, really can't have you guys early voting here even a little bit and allowing an early hammer, killing our discussion time. So I need a big big favor from everyone. I need you to sit tight and allow me to get some actual sleep, and during that time, I need you to not vote, even for Grapefruit.
That being said, I keep going through what I want to say over and over again, and I'm just not satisfied with anything I've got. The night has been an emotional rollercoaster for me, and I'm either over-explaining stuff, or coming off sounding cocky and arrogant.
To put it plainly, I have solved the game to a high degree of confidence. I will walk you through the steps on how I got there on each person, which should be evident by now on two of them, and one is already outed, but the third one is a reversal of a not-locked town read, and I also improved the confidence levels of my townies and read Shadow's alignment in a way I can feel fairly confident on.
Me
Tau
Tubba
DoTA
Shadow
Colin
(distance)
Killjoy
Jenna Tolaria
Grapefruit
That's your scum team.
Briefly, before I make big wall posts going into detail.
Grapefruit/bear's behavior was enormously scummy to me yesterday, but bear's posts, while indicative for alignment, were a slog to read through in close detail. Still, I had the time overnight.
Bear is not as good at being scum as grapefruit. They were struggling to post, give reads, or make anything they did believable, but it fooled enough of you long enough for them to make it through the round with their head still on. But a few townies, including Voxx and Shadow, were able to read them scum. Most are dead now. And they're outed, so those people were pushing a scum to death on day one and came up a little short on the votes, and then Shadow and I also pushed on Grapefruit on day 2. Those are your starting townies, if you're still confused on how to read this game. Start with the people who pushed bear out of nowhere, almost to death, and only failed due to lack of consensus.
Now read those posts by Bear very carefully. In one of them, you are going to see very badly acted "soft-distancing", where you pretend like you don't know someone and like they're really mysterious to you. I'll point out which post and lines to look at, but it should be clear that the behavior is intended to be soft-distancing. It's low risk behavior to make people believe you're not connected on a team, without having to push that person or otherwise act in an elaborate manner, to convince people you are not w/w. It's what wolves who are scared to interact with their partners do, and bear's game reeks of being unable to handle randing scum here, because they're tense, nervous, and masking it with inane commentary and question marks appended to statements.
When I came across that instance overnight, it was on Jenna Tolaria, which conflicted with my non-lock townread of them.
That town read was based on the things I said in my iso. I'm trying to find villagers, after all, and Jenna was acting townier than Torg was, and I even gave them a slight edge or equality with Colin. But as many folks have noted, the behavior is deliberately obfuscating something, and it's not on the level.
In any case, with Torg being revealed to be a townie, that meant I definitely have a wolf in my village. The reads on Dota and Tubba and Tau are all rock solid. And with grapefruit being lock scum, it's easy to see where the town read on shadow comes from given his vote pattern. Still haven't iso'ed him, I'm solving him based on his vote pattern and pushes. They were serious pushes, so the only thing that's left to read his alignment is my assessment as to whether or not he's a *****ty/selfish wolf or a team player. From everything I know about his reputation, he's not a *****ty wolf, and his play while under vote pressure certainly discounts the selfish idea. If he's not a *****ty or selfish wolf, then he's not bussing a partner to death on day one over an easy townie mislynch on Osie, who had made a lot of enemies on day one and was a townie. There was even another alternative, Dota, on day one. I read him town, so that should also have been an easy mislynch. When you've got 2 mislynches, you don't hard bus your buddy, no matter how much they're struggling. I would never do this.
That just leaves Colin, Killjoy, and Jenna, where two of those names are wolves. I already explained why Killjoy is not selling me this game, he's a cardboard cut-out of Killjoy. A similar shape and familiar avatar, but it's two dimensional instead of three.
So between Colin and Jenna, I was looking for one wolf. Bear's posts distance softly from Jenna specifically, basically giving an excuse not to have extended dialogue with Jenna. But it got me to go back and re-read Jenna, and at this point, the tell is a combination of the overall obfuscation, the pushes on villagers all game, in fact yesterday pushing basically the only person who the wolves could potentially mislynch. Solid reason to suspect them and put them out of my town, but not a lock.
And there was something else I noticed, as I was reviewing killjoy, bear/fruit, and jenna. All of them basically exclusively talk to dead villagers or the lockest of my villager reads. They don't talk to or about each other very often. I think Killjoy quotes 1 post by Jenna in the d1 and most of d2 timeframe, and what was said to/about it was completely irrelevant to solving the game. Jenna puts bear and killjoy in their null list for most of the game, or close to null, nothing strong either way, focusing all their "scum" accusations on the folks that have flipped townie or are really townie, not really discussing or pushing inside bearfruit/killjoy that often. And bear, they pretty much only discussed irrelevancies and talked about a bunch of people they would be willing to lynch, and all of those people look really villagery to me.
So, knowing that grapefruit was outed, I used the only useful active ability in my bag of tricks. I kidnapped Jenna, which forces them to commute. It's different from a jailkeep action, because with a jailkeep, you can at least scan for alignment of the person in jail. While they're commuting, they can't do any actions or have any actions performed against them.
Why I picked Jenna: My action is useful if I protect a villager, but with prime targets of myself, Tau, Shadow, and Dota as people the wolves pretty much absolutely have to murder, I have a 1:4 chance of hitting right. And they could always murder tubba and still get a kill. (UPDATE post-flip: My ability failed, which means I was certainly roleblocked or otherwise interfered with.)
But, if I instead use my action as a roleblock, and I have my scum team correct, then shooting inside the scum team has a 1:3 chance of being right, and I can also do a little guesswork to narrow that down further.
Grapefruit is outed. If the village has a roleblocker, they'll typically block there. So it's pointless to put the team kill on Grapefruit if the team believes the town has a roleblock. With the death of a tracker and vigilante, and how it says in the OP that tracking and roleblocking may interfere with the mafia teamkill unlike in some other games, they have to be wary of a roleblock.
Therefore, if they're smart, they won't put the team kill on Grapefruit.
Killjoy is also somewhat risky, as I've put him as my next most likely suspect and I have no reason to read him town with grapefruit revealed as scum.
The person I had been town reading until mid-night this last night phase was Jenna, about equal with Colin but not lock.
If someone is to do the crucial team kill, and have it not be interfered with, it's gotta be the wolf who the wolf team believes will not be roleblocked.
So I guessed Jenna and crossed my fingers I'd stop the mafia's team kill.
If no one died last night, I would now have the mechanical evidence I need to convict Jenna, and that means Colin is pretty much clear, as I was only lynching one of Jenna and Colin.
Grapefruit being outed, and Jenna never being the mafia team's kill shot onto a townie, that means the mafia team holstered on a critical night with a ton of villagery people that need to die before they do, or they killed someone they needed to mislynch to win.
I don't buy either theory, so Jenna is absolutely outed on no-kill, caught in the act of trying to shoot my village.
(Update: As I said, I was blocked)
Which means mad wolf number three is always gonna be Killjoy, for the cardboard cut-out tell.
Now, I could try to impress you by finding all the posts and making a big multi-quote wall that looks amazing, astounding, and like really good detective work. But I don't have the energy to do that right now, and if you can't be arsed to read this post and go look and see for yourself if I am correct, then such a wall would be a waste of my time.
I was also going to softly berate you guys for scum reading each other, and I ranted a little bit on how Megiddo couldn't even figure out I was town when I was literally screaming and posting howling wolf pictures about how wolfy Grapefruit was and how wolfy bear was and why, and how I buried them under a metric crapton of evidence that they were guilty, to no avail. And this was the guy that counterclaimed and hammered his vig claim. So, Megs not getting that I was a townie under those circumstances, means that we lynched the fourth member of the wolf team yesterday. They were always shooting a villager last night if they survived, so lynching him saved 1 villager's life, and I would probably have saved a second villager's life last night if I hadn't been blocked. Unless you guys have astounding reasoning that I find persuasive that it's not Killjoy, somehow. A masonry claim might do it, depending on who claims it with him. That's not gonna exist in a game this size, but it'd need to be that mechanically locking, from people I absolutely trust.
I said many things in most of my preconstructed rejected posts, and they were written when I was on an emotional high.
Now that I've come down, and I am dead ******* tired, this post is what I'm gonna settle on.
Guys, you silly villaging guys, stop with the crazy tinfoils on each other. Bear was the key to busting this whole game open. Killjoy doesn't talk to Bear, Bear doesn't talk to Killjoy, Jenna doesn't read either of them strongly wolf or townie, Bear struggled like hell and advocated lynching their own villager read, Grapefruit is outed scum and you've had days to re-read the game and see who still alive had been trying to get that kill the most, and it was me, with a side of Shadow on d1 and wavering Shadow on d2.
Dota was pushed to death by scums on d1 but Osie died instead. He's still being used as an occasional whipping boy, and it's all based on the vaguest weakest crap from the most null for alignment parts of day one. Give that ***** a rest, already. It's really dumb at this point to be so focused on such a small swath of the game state when we have MUCH more alignment indicative behavior from literally everyone by now.
Tubba is just obviously a townie. He's nothing like Low Fantasy. Doesn't mean his reads have panned out, and he's gotta stop suspecting me of all people and worse, Dota. But the man's trying to win the game for town.
Tau is literally the villageriest person I've ever seen in any game ever played. Look at my ISO of him. Look for yourself. If he's a wolf give him the win, because almost no one is that good at wolfing.
Shadow can't be wolf read after pushing outed Bear and wolfy Jenna rather than the villagers we lynched instead of those options. Otherwise he's just been playing a solely village-sided selfish wolf game designed to make him look like a badass. Which is fine. If your teammates are willing to roll over and just be punching bags as their sole contribution to the game and that's how you think you can win, be my guest. Shadow doesn't seem like the kind who is either that selfish or that bad at being a team player or a scumbag in general, because ***** like that doesn't pan out come endgame where you've lynched wolves and still didn't die.
That leaves Colin versus any of my wolf reads. That's a big nope on me lynching Colin before those. I have mechanical info on 2 wolves and a "duh, he's obviously a wolf, this isn't the same guy one game later" read on the last one, and Colin just looks like a villager. So I'm going with the majority read. We've run out of time to test them both I think.
That's the best I got.
Lynch the scummy people. Those aren't the people you've been pushing hard, unless your name is Shadow.
I need my village with me on this, because I'm ****ing tired, and I'm tired of losing hard fought games to wolves who either appealed to emotion or just openly wolfed until they got caught and then skated to a nearly free win.
Villaging is ****ing hard work, it's harder to get your team on track, harder to play with less information, harder to build trust, you're doing it all blindfolded, all you have to do as a wolf is get one body past the goal line.
I've put in hundreds of hours into villaging in the past couple months, and I don't have ***** to show for it, but a string of dead wolves, and losses in spite of that. One always gets away.
Winning isn't everything, but this bloodhound has been hunting for way too long without a bone.
In the words of Doctor Evil, Throw me a frickin' bone here. Lynch three scums and never lynch inside the village.
I'll be online later today to talk to my village and walk them through the process, but this post has taken me hours to write, re-write, throw out, and write again, and I'm going to be over 24 hours awake by the time I finally get to sleep. This is going to ruin my entire Saturday. Addendum: And the deadline has come and gone with no game host. I'm tired, Silver. Get well soon, but I wish you'd open the game.
If I'm to give you this much of my will, strength, energy, experience, and desire to have my team win, I need you to slog through this post, respect my wishes not to vote, and immediately begin to ISO Bear.
Look at Bear. Everything is connected to Bear. They're an outed wolf, and their posts give the whole game away on top of that.
Bear proves Dota is town. Why? Look at their posts, you can tell. That's Bear pushing a townie.
Bear and Killjoy and Jenna soft-distance from each other but only talk to everyone else. They ignore each other all game.
KillJoy is hollow, a shadow of his usual self.
Jenna is just openly obfuscating and pushing an entirely pro-wolf agenda. If Torg had flipped scum, I'd have been able to put them into my town for good, but not now. That one is the one that got past me.
Don't let any of these wolves get past you.
I have only one final request of you, if you've read through this post.
Because I am pissing all over my self-imposed word limit. Seems I can't help myself. I am compulsive and I probably gotta retire, as the game is sucking down my life.
If I'm to retire from the game, I want to go out with a bang. Kill every last effing wolf. Do it for me, to cap off a career of hunting wolves, and still having a lame barely 50 percent win rate as town and nothing close to that even for most of this year, despite pouring my heart and soul into this hobby. Do it for yourselves, since you invested a month into this game. Just keep killing those guilty people until it's over. Don't stop killing wolves until the game host says to stop.
Just win.
Someone here deserves a bone, because he's been a goddamned loyal dog for too damned long to not get one fricking bone for his sleuthing efforts.
Grapefruit is outed by counterclaim of the town vigilante who we lynched instead of Grapefruit yesterday against my repeated insistence that Grapefruit was howling.
Also, I kidnapped (forced commuter) Jenna Tolaria last night, someone who the mafia should never have been trying to shoot, even if I was somehow wrong and a wolf infiltrated my town deep. Jenna was no one's lock townie and they were always a mislynch if they were not a wolf, not a murder candidate. But I was roleblocked, so... I didn't get the hard evidence I wanted.
Jenna looks guilty regardless.
I explained Killjoy in detail earlier, and I can do that again in more detail.
But you can absolutely see the three of them working together all game if you read those three as the wolves, and watch how they act from start to finish. And if that's not enough, I'll carefully explain how I got to town reads on everyone else, in case you have any questions. Put the tinfoils down and put your thinking caps on.
___________________________
Please, don't vote until I give my consent for the round to continue, because I earned the right to make a single request of you, by showing up and trying my heart out to be a good villager, only to end up feeling like it was a wasted effort. Use the time, talk it out. Because I'm gonna be dead so this is your last chance to talk to me, probably. I don't have ***** for additional useful powers and we can't have a town doctor in this setup unless the scum team is insanely stacked.
Sorry if I'm appealing to emotion here. If wolves can do it and win games based on just that, then villagers can do it on top of a mountain of painstaking work and attempts to build a village out of nothing, with not even a quarter of a round to work with. If we're gonna play with fake emotions, we're gonna also play with real ones. It's not personal, it's just business, and this game is very much my business.
One last thing, if you look at the timestamp on this post, for obvious reasons the above posts were pre-written and therefore were constructed. I needed to get through to you before you voted.
And, if I didn't stop the mafia kill last night, I was pretty sure I was dead anyway, so there was little need to prepare an alternative opener for today. I just throw all of this away and enjoy being dead.
Addendum post flip: The actual outcome was a little surprising. I honestly didn't think they'd waste a roleblock on someone who claimed to be able to message people and claimed no investigatory power.
DoTArchon
Reaverb Tau
Tubba Fett
Colin
I must sleep now.
Look to your left, look to your right. You're all villagers, to a high degree of confidence. You guys just need to get used to the idea.
I will entertain the idea that this is wrong, but not on most of those names, and only if you give my own analysis a fair hearing, when I'm able to sit here for 12 hours talking you through it.
Be back after sleep. Don't go anywhere. Let's bring it home.
Because you sometimes push a very pro-wolf agenda as a villager. Between who you pushed and why (the why was the biggest issue) in the micro, and some of your reads / votes / how you got pocketed in the previous game we played together (look, I'm not suggesting I'm any better, I got pocketed by EL without even reading him closely), I can easily ISO you and find "evidence" you're a wolf, and it turns out, you're not a wolf. You're just someone who happens to look an awful lot like a wolf, that one time, and then the next time. In this game, you make beautiful pushes on folks like Jenna and Bear/Fruit, and then back away too easily. It sometimes looks like scum distancing.
You gotta take the wolves by the scruff of their neck and push them alllllllllllllll the way into the wood chipper head first, and don't let go until the howling ceases, otherwise it looks too soft, it looks like you just want to distance for credit, like Tom and Lngrrr did to each other while I lived last game.
You have been, for me, a minefield of false wolf tells. I always re-read the whole game, so when your iso is full of false tells, I have to re-examine my process on you. That process means I have to be skeptical of your process from a villagery standpoint.
And again, I'm not saying this to bash you or go ho ho ho look at me, ain't I hot *****, because I'm not. I promise you, I don't think that way.
What I'm saying is that you can be a competent villager and find other villagers, you can have excellent reads on wolves, you can even become widely town read, all of those things are the fundamentals I look for in a good villager. But, I'm looking for teams and I have to consider deep wolf possibilities. All it takes is one wolf who busses well. So I have to look at process.
And, process-wise, I don't follow your process a lot of the time. I don't know how you get from A to B, or switch back from B to A on a dime. I can't explain how you identify wolves or villagers. I see you doing villagery things, but that's just the surface.
Why does a villager insist that X and Y must be the wolf team based on nothing on day one, why does a villager back off his suspicions so easily other times, when the evidence should be strong that you should not back off. It seems all backward to me.
Granted, I just have these three games and a bit of isos in other games to go off of.
Every villager should be pissed at themselves for letting such atrocious acting slide. I can't believe I didn't mention that yesterday.
I'm still not sure how you think I'm cardboard.
But I'm going to do some rereading to see what !townShadow tells me.
Bear ISO
Key:
Grey = irrelevant, not game related bull*****. Filler, basically. Ignore this and you'll see how little guilty Bear actually did, which was half of what I was yellin about yesterday.
Blue = Stuff pertaining to folks which leads me to believe this is bear attacking a townie.
red = This is the stuff pertaining to Killjoy and Jenna Tolaria which leads me to believe they're partners.
Bold, no color: A comment by me as an aside, in the middle of the quote.
-------------------------------------------
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/783914-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night-day-3-the-last-king?comment=72
My schedule this semester basically makes me unavailable or of very low availability on M/T/W because I have class and work (I'm a professor's assistant) which is why I decided to /in games on MTGS - being away for three days in a row isn't terrible when days are two weeks long. I'll probably be able to sneak in one or two posts (hi o/) but unfortunately I have to be a responsible adult and, like, do... things. This weekend is Canadian Thanksgiving, too, so I won't be around for most of Thursday and next Monday even tho it's a stat, probably. I'll probably be able to pop in? but like. Not during the day, lol.
I've also decided that I'm going to phonepost as little as possible this game because newcomb is right this site gives me the luxury of time and if I'm not home I don't have to post when I should really be doing other things. Ofc I'll be reading on breaks and whatever, and if you want me to say something super urgently sure, but like... when I don't have to, I'm not going to. I'm pretty sure you could make a prediction that a bear won't be able to help themself from making posts later, and you'd probably be right. For now, tho...
Also, have a pic of some ****ed up Garfields:
As you can see, it's just filler. Next post:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/783914-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night-day-3-the-last-king?comment=112
This is generally how I feel about this game so far:
I'm not used to Voxx being like this and I feel like I'm already in Wine Hell. People being like this about him is also weird for me, tbh. It's like... when you look in a double mirror and see yourself not-mirrored and are like "who the **** am i looking at??? this is weird????"
This one's about my slot, but it's clearly an attempt to push suspicion there indirectly/passive-aggressively.
Jenna, if you're going to be committed to RPing, I would prefer you go back to what you were doing before. Kanaya doesn't talk like that even when she isn't Typing Like This, and it's making your posts hella annoying to understand. (and if you're going to shorten people's names with pesterchum name shortening, why not like. decapitalize the first letter. come on.) (also the name shortening makes reading your posts like trying to read sheet music for me) (like seriously please stop)
I feel like there's at least one wolf in Archon/Osieorb - Archon voted Shadow in RVS and then decided it was a real vote in #52. While it was a RVS vote at the time it was made, he felt the need to back it up with Actual Something. Now he's dismissed it as Not Actually Something That Ever Really Existed In The First Place (#102) while moving his vote to someone who agreed with him about it? Like, he's calling Osie shady for doing the same thing that he did? Does the concept of self-awareness exist here? (I would like #52 clarified if it wasn't... like,,, real?????) + Osie sheeping Archon's reasons for the vote with the near-immediate backdown after Voxx calls it out (and then? voting for voxx?) isn't that great, either. I don't think it's impossible for them to be together? but I don't think that one witch would immediately follow the other like that, especially since they're supposed to be long-time players or something... Mostly I just want them to fight each other and see what happens, tbh.
Btw, Vaimes is town, y'all. You're welcome.
End of post. Already you can see why I have Dota and Tau as being much less likely to be Bear's partner, and this is where the connection to Jenna was made.
The concept of it being a secret that Voxx and I can read you is also extremely that image macro I posted.
I want Colin to actually show up, is the thing. Tbf, only one person voting someone usually isn't good for making them show up, but I'm going to try anyway.
Next post:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/783914-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night-day-3-the-last-king?comment=120
Next post:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/783914-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night-day-3-the-last-king?comment=187
Unvote
Honestly surprised more people think that Archon is scum over Osie? I’m pretty sure that not a single person in this thread has given anything besides a scumread on Archon, actually. That feels really weird? Usually, people who get scumread by literally everyone aren't actually mafia. It's not universal, though. The only people Archon has actually expressed opinions on are Osie and Shadow, and those were both negative. Plus, besides Osie's interactions with Shadow, he feels better to me than Archon does. I kinda feel like I'm falling for some sort of trap, not sure whether or not the Osie townfeels are because I'm just hoping the people who have time to post are all town at this point. On the other other hand, for all the suspicion, Archon hasnt actually gotten that many votes... the only people who actually voted him so far are Jenna, Reaverb, and Torg. I'm going to have to reread the thread on my lappy to figure out this one, but it's 4 AM and I have a test tomorrow so, like, not now.
So, what does that tell you about Dota?
I agree. He's a townie. The wolf team doesn't put him at 3 votes on day one, guys.
It seems like most of the thread has forgotten that Torg exists, actually - only, like, three people are actually talking to him or acknowledging his existence.
This post is one of the ones that are the most alignment indicative, and it is also the one I singled out when I tore Bear to shreds yesterday.
Osie’s vote movements indicate that he’s most likely town, but he put himself in a position where, if he’s mafia, he has to be super ultra town in order to not just ******* Die from early misplays. He also has the worst positions/reasoning on the Shadow wagon. Besides that, though, his content is way better than Archon, in that it actually exists, he has more than one scumread (or read period tbh), and he’s actually engaging people. I feel like if the Shadow wagon hadn’t happened, this guy wouldn’t be getting as many scumreads as he actually is.
Also beginning to wonder if Archon’s team is just leaving him for dead, tbh? Literally nobody is willing to defend him or get him to explain anything, but hardly anyone is actually voting for him. After he got scumread by basically everyone, he disappeared, too. Maybe they’re just hoping we’ll consolidate on someone else? Going into antispew a week before deadline is just giving up...
I really, really, really just want Archon and Osie to thunderdome, tbh. It would help a lot.
Vote: DoTArchon
But also relevant, guys, seriously, look how they've been treating DOTA up to this point.
That's never wolf on wolf.
Feeling something like Tubba/Archon +1 or Osie/Jenna/ +1 isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Tubba probably isn’t with Reaver or Colin either? The reaction to the scumreads is… I mean, if Tubba's scared that his partner(s) are going to bus him D1 for no reason and is flipping the **** out about getting, like, two votes? maybe? We have time to resolve this, tho.
So? Where's the part where they talk about how Jenna is a wolf? Where does Bear ever actually push Jenna?
Do you guys see it? I sure as **** don't.
So Osie is a townie, and Osie/Jenna isn't wolf/wolf, therefore.... let's lynch between Osie and Dota.
That's why I was scum reading them, and I highlighted this section in bold red. No one read my posts yesterday apparently.
Still pushing Archon, too, btw.
Fun Beru Facts: just realized that this is the first game I’ve actually played with Voxx in at least three years, maybe four? That’s weird.
Voxx, one of the main problems I'm having with this game is that I absolutely hate it when people aren't playing and yell at people for it all the time? And, like, now I can't really play because I can't use the forum on my phone, and I feel terrible about it. I can’t even yell at other people for not playing, because I can’t ******* post either. You should already know how I feel about this because my hate of it is a Known Beru Fact. I’d probably be posting more if Curse wasn’t trash, actually. Not, like, 700 posts, lol, but I’d actually be able to post when I’m not home which is usually when I have the time to - waiting for the bus, eating lunch, on break, whatever. Being smothered by my inability to actually play the game is making me feel p ambivalent about the entire forum, and I probably won’t play here after this. Trying to get over it, trying not to post about it, it’s affecting my gameplay so I guess I DO have to acknowledge it, I hate everything, etc. (Also, I feel like when I do make posts, very few people actually want to talk to me? It’s like people are sliding right past what posts I do get to make. Not sure if this is just me, though.)
Posts I write from notes are going to “feel pre-constructed”, to borrow Newcomb’s words on this, because I’m taking the notes I’ve already made and turning them into bigposts. I’m always going to edit what I’m saying because I’m writing things down when I think about them and then make it into something resembling a coherent post when I’m actually at my lappy. I’m not a stream of consciousness player.
First Blue Highlight: Look, they cased Dota, voted Dota, and tried to push Dota to death literally all day one, never wavering.
That's never wolf on wolf. @Tubba, stop chasing Dota. That's all done with now. They're townie, gotta deal with it man.
And the rest is just more wall-o-struggling-wolf chattering. Hiding their lack of content under a wall of words.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/783914-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night-day-3-the-last-king?comment=307
Wagon on me feels like it gained traction out of nowhere... but I'd be really surprised if any of Vaimes, Voxx, or Shadow were actually mafia? It's going to be interesting to see what the tail end of my wagon is like if I actually get lynched. Meanwhile, Osie's vote feels like he was waiting for someone to provide him with a good enough reason to vote for me, tbh. Don't mind swapping to Osie if I have to.
My problems with mobile aren't ad-based. It's like... the text is literally like 5 pixels high in the post field when writing so I can't see ***** on my 2014 phone, especially while using flux (twilight) + the page loads very slowly and in strange chunks and it's only by grace that I've been saved from accidentally liking posts when trying to swap pages because it can suddenly load something and move the buttons around... but mostly the first one. I can't see the ***** I'm typing. It's bad. 0/10.
More irrelevant stuff. Stalling, basically.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/783914-it-was-a-dark-and-stormy-night-day-3-the-last-king?comment=311
Prompted by my predecessor, who was scum reading Bear, to actually give content, Bear gives us the following:
You're town. Do you want more words on why I think you're town? Not sure if that's useful because of your meta, but your posts on the subject are tending towards entering in the wifom olympics so I'm just going to write you off and see what happens.
Wow, what startling analysis. Earth-shattering, in fact!
Get rekt, wolves.
Colin is town! Except, of course, for these reasons why he's not.
Great effing process. That's wolfy af.
I report, you decide. (He's townie)
Of really funny note, look. Tubba is suspecting Osie, Colin, and reaverb, that's TWO PEOPLE that Bear pushed, and Bear thinks that trifecta is "not great".
Seriously.
That kind of backwards-ass thinking is not how wolves tar fellow wolves. That's when they don't actually have any reads and need a reason to attack an attackable townie. So even if they agree with your own damned cases, they must be scum.
Well la-dee-dah. Tubba willing to lynch all your scums, but his suspects list makes him scummy, Bear?
That means Tubba is also town.
How do you not put wolf!reaverb into your town list if you're a wolf? The only reason not to town read reaverb is if they're someone you might need to lynch someday.
Gettin a strong feeling they don't know what to do with their not-especially townread partner? Yeah, me too.
Osie is strange? I feel like today's lynch has been forced to be between him and me and that feels really bad? If Archon and Osie are both somehow town and we wasted our entire day I'm going to *****. His posts are ok and he's actually been in the thread which is honestly... another reason I want to lynch Archon over him... but every time I make a theory about what he's doing, all he can say is "wow.... that seems like a bad plan......." to defend himself and I don't know if I'm being lolcatted at or what????
This took too long... tfw adult adhd. v Ov
"Neat!"
And then Bear sauntered off into the woods, never to be seen again.
What we got instead of bear was Grapefruit, who was also scummy, for the reasons and arguments I laid out. But he had a much cooler head and a cooler hand. So, Bear is where all the really indicative stuff happened for partner-analysis and town spew.
Go read Bear's ISO. When you're done, I expect town reads on Dota, Tau, and since I buried Grapefruit and bear, as Voxx and as myself, I'm also in your town.
Your villagers you cannot hard read villager based on Bear alone are Tubba and Colin. But it's obvious that Bear is specifically wary of, and then pockets, Colin, and Colin falls for it because they know bear. It looks wolf/town to me.
And Tubba, posts almost the same suspects list as Bear and Bear reads them wolfy for it. So that's at least a light town read.
When you factor in Tubba is one of the top posters, actually talks, has a process, and actually believes in his own reads, that's a 1000 times improvement over Low Fantasy.
So, you can't lynch Tubba. Over my dead body you lynch Tubba.
That just leaves Colin as the only one left who is even remotely possible and, no. Not when Killjoy and Jenna look how they do and who they've spoken to, how they've treated each other and Bear/Fruit slot.
You never lynch Colin before you eradicate Jenna and Killjoy from the game.
If that's wrong, you gotta explain how. I don't see it.
End of ISO.
I never want to read any of these posts again. Don't force me to do so.
Voxx used a 1 shot self-commute N1. Then he lied about being roleblocked to draw the kill to himself, since the remaining powers were sucky. The kidnap can be useful but it's hard to mechanically damn or clear someone unless you're elite, and you can still be roleblocked.
To explain how Tubba knew Voxx was lying, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he had like a 1 shot cop scan, role cop, somethin, used it on Voxx, and got no results. Can't get a result on a commuter. And if you don't get a result, that can be suspicious.
I had 1 shot commuter that Voxx used, 1 shot kidnap I used last night, and my still unused for obvious reasons, 1 shot message a player.
I'll prove my 1 shot message a player tonight by sending a message to someone. Since we're always lynching guilty grape, we have the time to test the power.
Probably gotta send it to Tubba, but that's predictable, so maybe someone else we can agree is town.
I wanna switch Dota and Tubba in my POE.
I am still solid on Dota, but I've seen wolves sometimes improve rapidly after being coached by a wolf team. And sometimes they really do have a learning curve that good.
But still, it's like a level 1 wolf jumping straight to level five and doing it convincingly. I would not put better than 1 in 20 odds on Tubba being scum, and the part where Bear pushes Tubba for having the same suspects as Bear is still super convincing.
Just, there's no way in hell Dota is scum. I'd believe Tubba is scum before it's Dota. And I don't think it's Tubba. A lot of bad things would have had to happen to thread the needle on him getting so far into my town, without any visible signs of guilt.
All you have is who he's pushing, and it's not his guesses, it's his process that I totally buy. It reads like a villager who is new.
Where have both of you been all my life. I could have used you guys in a lot of games I've played over the years. You make me want to play more often even though I know that's not a good idea.
Even his claim wouldn't have moved me, if I had been around. Not until he had suspects that made any sense and indicated a desire to solve using his own process. Like, Dota and Tau's process on Megs' entrance is precisely what it should be.
I don't know how someone can fake a wolf howl that well as a townie, but congrats.
Dota wasn't around at the time. Got these isos confused. Dota's process on Killjoy is the one that fascinates me.
That's what's giving Tubba any town points, is his process. Colin is kinda eh, but it's his process that's pushing him quite distant from the nearest suspect.
I'd at least in-game date Colin/Tubba. No marry but it's really solid.
But, in honor of these in-game village romances, I feel like I should now express my leans list in the form of The Little Mermaid gifs.
Benneh got the I Love Lucy gifs. Seems only fair I give you guys a token of my villa-love.
_________________________
Starting from the bottom and working my way up:
Bear (you get your own separate one)
A villager slot in need of rescue.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Colin
Couldn't find the "I came" one. Just imagine it says that.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
And a bonus one.
Shadowlancerx (Since I finally got there on you eventually at long last. Kudos on the wolf hunting this game, man.)
Wolves all frozen, I guess.
GG
Jenna is definitely scum if DoTA is Town given how King Torg wagon was an instant replay of the Shadow wagon, and DoTA is definitely town if grapefruit is scum.
Does anybody disagree with the above? I see Pizza has similar thoughts.
Pizza is and has been a solid townread for me all game but I'm getting major flashbacks to my very first game of Mafia I ever played. Plotinus replaced in at the eleventh hour and proceeded to crush the remaining two townies in Lylo in a way that looks remarkably similar to how Pizza is playing here. Of course he had the benefit of everyone having already flipped and only had to convince the last two to turn on one another but it was an amazingly strong play that, since the team's aren't revealed in the spec chat, had me swearing that he couldn't be scum.
Grapefruit's terrible claim at the end of day 2 is also part of why I'm beginning to get paranoid about Pizza, he's been under some pressure but has never really been close to being the lynch. That claim could be him sacrificing himself for the greater good of the scum team, solidifying Pizza as town in the eyes of everyone else.
But before we get even remotely close to that I want to hear from Grapefruit why he claimed what he did, and then see him hang for it.
Grapefruit counterclaimed Megiddo, who flipped town vigilante.
Grapefruit is outed, literally.
It's Grapefruit and Jenna yeah. I find that Killjoy fits as the most likely in the third slot.
Specifically, if you read Bear, Jenna, and Killjoy, they all pretty much ignore/null each other or barely distance from them.
Just basic power wolfing, nothing fancy. Hey, it works. They only need 3 lynches to win, and they got 2 of em.
It's as simple as it looks. I love the tinfoil, but let's start with the basic assessment of the game.
Guy who pushed bear hard on d1 and grapefruit hard on d2 is a townie. And bear-grape is outed.
1+1=2.
That's not just bad wolfing, it's just not something you ever really see.
The mafia cannot have been roleblocking both me and grapefruit, who would then have to be the town team's second vigilante in a 12 person game.
Who then also didn't shoot anyone last night, since neither the town "roleblock-ish" person nor the mafia roleblocker were targeting him.
Never happening.
It's as close to mod-confirmed wolf status as you'll ever get.
You need space to work. I will be around occasionally to respond to questions. Don't feel like I really need to do a gigant-ISO on Killjoy or Jenna at the moment.
If you guys need help getting on the same page I am, let me know, and I'll also walk you through what I saw in their posts that is problematic on its own, but also the connections to the other two.
I'm gonna relax and play video games for a bit.