I'll admit, Tubba and Torg are two players I need to reread. In my last reads list I mentioned not really liking either of them but things have happened since then.
Grapefruit is in this grouping because a)Vaimes and Voxx had both gone after Bear during Day 1 and b) there's something odd I picked up on in day one in one of Bears posts that I can no longer ask about, but it makes me want to keep an eye on how Grape progresses.
The
What was the weird thing you noticed about Bear's post? I understand Grape can't speak for Bear, but it could still be useful. Were you planning to say more? If so, what?
I'll admit, Tubba and Torg are two players I need to reread. In my last reads list I mentioned not really liking either of them but things have happened since then.
Grapefruit is in this grouping because a)Vaimes and Voxx had both gone after Bear during Day 1 and b) there's something odd I picked up on in day one in one of Bears posts that I can no longer ask about, but it makes me want to keep an eye on how Grape progresses.
The
What was the weird thing you noticed about Bear's post? I understand Grape can't speak for Bear, but it could still be useful. Were you planning to say more? If so, what?
Bears ISO is a lot of words that seem devoid of actual scum hunting, there weren't a lot of questions to players and very little pressure on their scum reads. Kind of reminds me of Terry in the Russian Roulette game. And then in their second last post where they posted a short read on eeveryone they ended their Vaimes read with "RIP Vaimes". Seems out of place in the context of all their posts. But Bear is not here anymore so I can't really follow up on any of it.
Part of your premise seems to be that you, when making that opening post, I should have been considering how it would help town. You said as much when you said that "what I said was not particularly +EV town". The intention of the post was not to directly benefit town. It was to guage people's answers and see if I can figure out where they were coming from.
Town players don't have to go "wow I'm going to go back a +EV Town post!!" to do it. They just do it naturally. Guaging people's answers and exposing where they're coming from is one form of +EV Town post.
(For the class: The rest of this Killjoy post convinced me he has done this)
So here's where I am right now:
Jenna
(Really large gap here)
Shadow/Voxx
King Torg
grapefruit (r. Bear)
Killjoy/Colin
TubbaFett
DotA
Vote: DoTA
Anyway I am slightly irked by Killjoy being on this wagon, which probably means it's time to break out the votal analysis.
On the players I'm willing to lynch toDay:
I dislike DoTA for the same reasons as I disliked him Day 1, plus this Day phase he completely abandoned his "read through everybody's ISOs in inverse order of length" project.
TubbaFett's scumread of Voxx seems designed to screw with me personally because I have talked in past about how good it is for scum to push on Voxx's player archetype while not giving reads on anybody else but it's also something scum have been terrified to do historically. I think it's some net townpoints, but not enough to dig him out of his hole. His engagement with Colin seems fine, but he hasn't done much else.
I did read/skim TubbaFett's ISO in his other scumgame but I don't think it's indicative. He did change his tone a lot - he's using first person a lot less this game - but I don't think his approach to the game has changed all that much. He hasn't done anything dramatic like post readslists or try to learn votal analysis for this game, and minor changes could easily be knowing that he would be exposed as scum in Low Fantasy before this game ended.
---
@TubbaFett What are your top 3 townreads and top 3 scumreads and why? If Voxx is on the list, feel free to name drop them and skip the explaination.
On Reaverb (the things that pinged scum):
-His first two posts were dodgy, over explaining an RVS vote to be max. He follows up that he did so as to avoid sounding insulting, which could be true.
-He continues with a vote on Dota, but part of the reasoning was specifically criticizing him for his RVS vote of me, which was pretty clearly RVS.
-Post 70 he asks Jenna for "empirical evidence" on her scum read of Vaimes. I don't know what empirical evidence you expect anyone to have on day one, so to demand it looked bad.
-Post 148 is coaching on King Torg, slight buddy pings for it.
-Post 215 is a vote on KJ when his logic implied a better chance for Colin to be scum. Like I'm not sure why he didn't vote KJ earlier and then post his criticisms of Colin. He later goes over his logic a little deeper but I'm somewhat suspicious that he's being a little revisionist.
I like how 1/3rd your stuff is about RVS and 1/3rd of it is so weak you feel compelled to include "but he might be Town here because..."
By "empirical evidence" I was expecting Jeanna to quote the posts that made them feel off on Vaimes.
On Reaverb (the things that pinged scum):
-His first two posts were dodgy, over explaining an RVS vote to be max. He follows up that he did so as to avoid sounding insulting, which could be true.
-He continues with a vote on Dota, but part of the reasoning was specifically criticizing him for his RVS vote of me, which was pretty clearly RVS.
-Post 70 he asks Jenna for "empirical evidence" on her scum read of Vaimes. I don't know what empirical evidence you expect anyone to have on day one, so to demand it looked bad.
-Post 148 is coaching on King Torg, slight buddy pings for it.
-Post 215 is a vote on KJ when his logic implied a better chance for Colin to be scum. Like I'm not sure why he didn't vote KJ earlier and then post his criticisms of Colin. He later goes over his logic a little deeper but I'm somewhat suspicious that he's being a little revisionist.
I like how 1/3rd your stuff is about RVS and 1/3rd of it is so weak you feel compelled to include "but he might be Town here because..."
By "empirical evidence" I was expecting Jeanna to quote the posts that made them feel off on Vaimes.
Which arguments are you inferring to be weak here? Like these are all pings and not home run case points, by definition none of them are going to be strong.
As far as the empirical evidence, it seems like a pretty odd word choice regardless, but I'll drop that one.
So I kinda feel like King Torg and Dota at the most likely Lynches of the day, if we manage to get that far.
I have this pit in my stomach because of the apathy this game, like no one seems to care what anyone else has to say.
Dota, you threw up Torg's iso and said "look, scum!" Can you dig into why?
Reaverb, you voted Dota, skimmed over him and then went much more in depth on Tubba. Are you that confident in Dota's alignment; do you really have nothing to ask him?
Jenna, by the spoils of victory, do you actually think that town is in a good position here? Like bonus points if you're scum gloating that opening, but I don't think you are.
Killjoy, aside from it just being lazy, why exactly is Dota's post "terrible".
Voxx....I get it, real life...but do something please.
Grapefruit...actually I think you're scum. Who are your top suspects right now and what are you doing to figure them out.
Vote grapefruit
I know I said that Dota Torg were likely lynch candidates, but we have enough time to pivot. Somebody talk to be about their thoughts on grapefruit. Someone talk about something! Let's kickstart this game again.
@Shadow I think Dota and Torg are scum and bussing each other in desperation. That's why I've been voting Dota, asking him questions and trying to get people to vote him with me! I'm feeling Tubba and Jenna for town. You seem skeptical that Dota is scum, is it similar to your feeling in silence or do you see something that makes you think he's town?
As for why I think Dota is scum I think Dota is for his wonky progression on D1 that felt a lot like trying to set up a mislynch chain. And his completely unnatural progression on Torg.
Right now I can't quantify why I think he's not super likely to be scum. I was scum in Silence, do you mean a different game?
Talk to me about his progression. Also, you kinda promised to catch up and post and then never really delivered much. What happened with that?
I didn't feel like there was much worth commenting on. I did my catch up and it ended up being pretty short. And right. I was so pocketed I forgot again... I was just thinking of our neighbor chats and your reluctance to push there forgetting that you knew his alignment at the time...
As for his progression Dota flipping on Osie in this way just doesn't feel natural. This is in regards to the flash wagon at the start:
My vote on Shadow was RVS, was obviously not based on a read of any kind. Osieorb agreeing with my comment and subsequently voting Shadow however looks shady, I don't think my comment was reason enough to push for a lynch. I'll respond in more depth a little late but for now, Vote: Osieorb18
That sort of jump for agreeing with him is just a weird jump to make. It's also the sort of play I've made as scum to get through RVS. Hop off a hot wagon and turn on someone you think you can push on it.
He also calls Torg scum in 265 on flimsy reasoning (why is voting someone for an over explainy RVS a bad thing?) and asks a couple of questions. He never follows up on them or presses Torg for answers. He then puts him in the scum side of his meh pile in 418 saying he needs to reread. Then he just posts a link to the ISO and says make a case why Torg is town. It's the sort of non engaged fishing expedition that comes from scum more often than not.
Shadow, we are in a very strong position. The apathy you sense is in fact satisfaction at a job well done.
There's little to do except relax while the votes come in on Archon and Torg. Additional villains, should they exist, can be hunted after this chapter is closed.
My predecessor apparently mentioned being blocked on night one.
This is not true, I either have no active abilities or they were not used on night one. I don't quite understand why the slot was playing fancy like that, but since I don't understand the plan I'm totally abandoning it. (Sorry! I'm sure it made sense to you, and I play fancy as town as well so...)
It's important in case I die and then people misread the game for mechanical reasons. If I understood what was meant to be accomplished by that I'd even be in favor of maintaining the lie.
Hi everyone. After burning myself out 800 posting in an under 3000 post game as town recently, I am self-imposing rules and restrictions on my play here, to limit my compulsiveness. If I can't, I just won't play anymore at all.
So, you will see stark differences in how I approach this game as you will have seen in the past several town games of mine. Meta won't help you in the generic sense.
I've read almost all the game in preparation to sub in, simply to understand what happened. I'm glad I wasn't here on day one, because a lot of stuff happened there that would make me too grumpy to want to continue.
Ok I see his reasoning now. Probably trying to draw a NK, is my guess. I think that was likely just reading his posts though. He was always getting nightkilled this game. I'd wager he wanted to exit the game even faster, which is why he went all out with the fanciness.
You know, despite our differences, I think Pizza will be good for this game.
Jenna, I don't feel like the game is that simple.
I kinda want to see what Pizza's take here is and then go from there, because I can't see the scum through the trees in this forest.
Grapefruit, why not at least say that there was nothing really to comment on?
Dota, who are King Torg's partners and why are you town?
Thanks. After misreading you once, and then reading you correctly only to have it slip away the instant Anak flipped town, I'm going to stuff my way of reading you into the trash can and pretend I've never played mafia before.
I didn't have my alignment yet when I began reading the game, and I'm all caught up now (skimming though, not deep analysis)
But, my interest revolves around the KillJoy slot and the Tubba slot.
Tubba looks different. Very different. At the same time, I was getting pings of maybe this guy is scum while reading him, and different doesn't always mean he's not scum here. That said... other stuff he's doing is putting him into serious contention for my first town read. And he is really different.
He didn't buy Voxx's claim at all and has been warning people not to believe it. I don't see him doing that as scum (often).
Tubba, you were correct. I don't know how, but you were.
KillJoy is like one of my favorite persons ever and I want him to be town with me here, but I kind of feel like there was meat behind the push on KJ. I have to analyze it more closely, but I'm very interested in the slot.
I am also amused by Jenna and how they're playing. Don't know if I have an alignment whiff there yet, but I am a fan.
Oh, Tau. I also got town reads off of Tau, kinda strong ones, but I want to go back and re-read there.
Last game I got town reads off of a very special player (tm) for being really undiplomatic to people and ateing forever, as scum, but. That doesn't usually happen to me I promise.
Still, I'll be more carefully and fully iso and examine the slot from both angles before putting them on my page.
Pizza, wouldn't it be more weird to you the Tubba correctly identified the lie that Voxx perpetuated, specifically because he would know whether or not that slot was actually RoleBlocked?
Pizza, wouldn't it be more weird to you the Tubba correctly identified the lie that Voxx perpetuated, specifically because he would know whether or not that slot was actually RoleBlocked?
It's interesting enough to note, like say if he were the scum roleblocker, he'd know then that Voxx wasn't blocked by him. But it's also something all his teammates should be shouting at him to not mention. Then again I don't know if he'd listen. Not everyone thinks that claiming roleblocker is a scum claim the same way I do, he could be pretending to be a town roleblocker while being a scum one.
But town tracker died, and town roleblocker shouldn't know that Voxx wasn't roleblocked, since a scum roleblocker is always possible, in fact it's usually included in my experience.
But, if he's got like a role cop or something, he might know. I think there's plenty of ways for him to know that don't necessarily make him scum for it. It's also really, really inadvisable for him to push this point as scum.
That plus how he's playing differently make me want to disregard some of my gut feels and focus on the majority read, which is that this behavior shouldn't be coming from a scum slot. I admit, it is possible.
Iso of Torg, since it's not much to look at, and he's someone who gave me little pings while reading.
The first two posts of this ISO are a problem in my book. There is a vote on someone with reasons, and then no reason given for a hard unvote a day later. I have found that no reason hard unvotes (unvote without voting a new suspect) are good generic scum tells. Townies don't often do this because stuff townies do has to make sense from a solving perspective, because they are trying to solve.
Couple days later, votes DOTA. Gives a reason that doesn't go into detail. For me to understand Torg, they have to explain their vote on DOTA in their third post. Also the post has a distinctly wolfy shape. Psychologically, Torg is distancing himself from his vote on DOTA by talking about irrelevancies in the first line, and then giving a generic reason and vote in the second line. It's not too committal and it is defensible. But usually when townies find scums they make it the most important thing they're posting about, not the least important thing.
There can be variance, but even this third post from Torg is wrong (to me).
Asks about Dota and Osi next.
Next post on the 9th, is going into more detail on why Dota is scum. I can believe this is a reason he can believe. But it also feels opportunistic. I'd have to read dota closely and see if I agree. And look at how the dota suspicion could have been formed. Sounds like in the post on the 12th, he's admitting some kind of faulty premise for his vote on Dota anyway, something that could have been overlooked in a hasty rush to condemn a townie voting awkwardly, perhaps. But my opinion is colored already, so I need to see those posts before deciding, outside of this iso.
Next post, I see Dota subscribes to my hard unvote theory too.
Didn't see this part,
"@Whoever asked me for my read on Osi and Voxx Osi's 1st few posts seemed pretty scummy to me, but appears to be getting steadily townier. For lack of stronger reads as of right now, I'd say he's scum."
That's a complex thought, which I tend to read villagery. Not sure if I believe it yet, but noted.
Don't like the leans list on the 20th. Feels like the DOTA push was deliberately sidelined. Tau suddenly at the top is strange.
What I'm getting from Torg in summary are pushes that feel easy, like pouncing on attackable people. I don't know if I town read all of them yet, but I get a sense that Torg doesn't believe in his own pushes as well. Otherwise they'd have more detail, attempt to persuade people, and they wouldn't be so easily dropped. Don't like how Osie was trending townier and then still got voted. When people trend villagery for me I tend to back off, in spite of earlier scum vibes.
I see how Torg can be scum, and I lean scum on Torg. This can be adjusted if I fill in the rest of the people and his slot makes more sense with that new data. But as of now, I am only seeing a mild townie tell which I think can even be wrong in this case because of what ended up happening. If you had that complex thought, you should follow up consistently, but throwing Osie out after trending townie isn't something I can town read.
Understandable that you have to lynch someone day one, but instead of pushing actual suspect dota harder, opted to lynch Osie. Makes me think any townie read from Torg's slot will be worthless and cast aside. The follow up on Dota is also unimpressive.
Tl;dr
Greater than rand this slot is scum, but without more data I won't settle on it as my judgment. Not a lock, just a lean. Also, I don't have a very complete picture yet.
scums before osie flip were osie, dota, tubba, and jenna. Scums after osie flip were the same, minus osie.
No re-examination? When I mislynch someone I re-assess. Doesn't mean I let go of all my suspicions but it's interesting that the bottom 3 are the same as the bottom 4 on day one, without examining a lot of people up his list.
Doesn't feel like good towning to me. Maybe it's bad towning, maybe he's correct about everyone else by magic, but I don't think that rigidity between d1 and d2 makes sense from a solving POV.
It looks more like when tom was lining up the mislynches last game. Similar rigidity between before and after mislynching someone. No reassess.
Dota's iso is fantastic and I'm only halfway through it. I'm severely tempted to lock dota away as town forever based on 121 alone.
I'd be lying if it was just that one post though. The rest of his iso so far looks good, but that one post is fantastic. Depth of reads, depth of thoughts not revealed in initial posts, complex thoughts, solving questions, and similar reads to my own, all contained within one post.
If this is possible from scum-dota someone has to say something because he's now my top town read.
Oh, Tau. I also got town reads off of Tau, kinda strong ones, but I want to go back and re-read there.
Last game I got town reads off of a very special player (tm) for being really undiplomatic to people and ateing forever, as scum, but. That doesn't usually happen to me I promise.
Still, I'll be more carefully and fully iso and examine the slot from both angles before putting them on my page.
Uh do you think I've been undiplomatic and ateing? That definitely wasn't my intent.
---- @Shadow "weak" was your first and last point. I find it weird that you're giving multiple interpretations of my actions without discussing probabilities /which interpretation you think is more likely.
----
Still working on my votal analysis (expect it tomorrow) but anybody (@grapefruit21 @Jenna) who thinks DoTA/Torg are buddies should look closer at their D1 interactions King Torg got on DoTA early and stayed there all Day. I really doubt they're w/w.
If the lynch were somehow between myself and dota, I'd be voting whoever dota and I both agreed was scum and letting a no lynch happen. Whoever has a scum read on dota has explaining to do. I'd struggle to lynch dota if it were just him and me left in the game and I was a double voter. I'd be like... did the game end already and the game host is just trolling us?
We're not masons, btw. Just not lynching there probably ever.
Uh do you think I've been undiplomatic and ateing? That definitely wasn't my intent.
No, not at all. I'm comparing something generic, not specific, in that the first person I town read last game was scum. I nailed almost every other read, but got sloppy with the first one.
BTW you should unvote dota and vote for Torg, and after that, I'm leaning grapefruit. On this page alone I see him connecting torg with others, the way tom and lngrrr did last game, before torg flips, but voting tau. That's not right, that's distancing while mislynching.
I haven't even iso'ed Grapefruit but I'm this close to shooting him in the face for that alone.
With love grapefruit, all in good fun and game related, yours truly askthepizzaguy.
Uh do you think I've been undiplomatic and ateing? That definitely wasn't my intent.
No, not at all. I'm comparing something generic, not specific, in that the first person I town read last game was scum. I nailed almost every other read, but got sloppy with the first one.
BTW you should unvote dota and vote for Torg, and after that, I'm leaning grapefruit. On this page alone I see him connecting torg with others, the way tom and lngrrr did last game, before torg flips, but voting tau. That's not right, that's distancing while mislynching.
I haven't even iso'ed Grapefruit but I'm this close to shooting him in the face for that alone.
With love grapefruit, all in good fun and game related, yours truly askthepizzaguy.
I fully iso'ed grapefruit and bear, and both of those isos were absolutely scumtastic.
Bear has two suspects and an rvs vote on colin that took them forever to hard unvote. This person is struggling and lurking in plain sight and masking it with wordy posts.
Grapefruit is pulling a tomlngrrr on Dota and Torg, namely Torg being the scummo and Dota being the townie.
What I'm seeing here is that Colin is a townie and really wanted to play with bear, and that is skewing their perception of the slot and the game. Also sheeped bear in some of their conflicted reads. Not good.
Friends know how to manipulate friends. Colin's iso is deep, despite the low post count. Every read besides a couple of the ones that were sheepy seemed well argued and fleshed out.
I wouldn't put Colin as high as DOTA but I very much like this slot. If I have a specialty it's reading people with few posts, and I feel quite confident on this slot.
Torg, Bear/fruit scum
Dota, Colin town
Killjoy still needs a look.
Vote Count 1.10 A Bear - 3 (Vaimes, Voxxicus, osieorb18) (L-4)
DoTArchon - 3 (Jenna Tolaria, King Torg, A Bear) (L-4)
osieorb18 - 3 (DoTArchon, Tubba Fett, Killjoy) (L-4)
Killjoy - 1 (Reaverb Tau)
Reaverb Tau - 1 (shadowlancerx)
This vote tally feels important, especially if bear is scum. Osie and Vaimes both flipped town and I'm town. Dota reads super town and osie, again, flipped town. I think I like reaverb in a loose sense (need to iso) and also shadow a little bit, based on the read of the game up to this post, and Colin based on the iso. Think the scumbags are on Dota and Osie especially if bear is scum.
I'm in the middle of isoing Killjoy and I'm getting absolutely not a danged thing from any of his posts up to this point. Just feels like endless multiquoting and questions that only superficially pertain to anything. It feels different to last game, somehow. I have to check and see what if anything the differences are. Like, in the posts leading up to the DOTA vote, I don't feel anything. It all tastes like cardboard.
@Shadow: I mean, ok. But my point is that we're probably not lynching reaver today, so pushing him right now is just... Not useful to our situation right now.
Hell, Bear is probably just as unlikely to get lynched today due to how late in the day Voxx proposed him (among other reasons).
If I were you, I'd figure out your feelings between DotA and Osie, and Lynch one of them.
Actually, same goes for you, Reaver. That vote on tubba is doing similarly nothing. I doubt you'll get enough votes to Lynch him before deadline.
This is just after the tally where it's 3-3-3.
I don't see how bear isn't an option here. Disagree with the option, sure, but it was an option.
@Shadow: Yeah, it was just really lazy and felt... blah.
PIZZA'S HERE! PIZZA PARTY!
Anyway.
You can't just go around telling people they taste like cardboard. It's rude.
My thought was that Bear was unlikely because we didn't have any discussion on him. It would have basically been a CFD which I'm not in general a huge fan of because it just feels randomish.
I mean, I know they're not. I get there's dynamics about how those things happen etc. Its just lynchong someone about whom we haven't had much discussion is the thing I find problematic. Does that make sense? Sometimes I just kinda ramble and don't make sense.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Gets out of rvs as quickly as possible, and gives 3 actual reads in his second post.
About 4 posts in his iso and 200 posts in the game total, he begins doing serious analysis, and painting a picture. He reverses his town read on lurker (amazing, btw... he fooled a lot of people that game) and begins to town read latin.
Posts are all sharp, pointed, solving.
Leans list is thin. If it wasn't for all his other posts that game, I'd have scum read him for his leans list.
Still sharp, pointed and questioning folks like tom. figuring out folks like rodemy by questioning/conversing. Complex thoughts posts.
Makes a lot of posts with assuredness and gives superlatives and going out on a limb like "I don't see X ever being scum here"
"I'm so confident that Anak is scum that I'll be ok with being shot tonight if I'm wrong."
Here-
Snaps voxx as town, doesn't give a reason. Says he's getting town vibes from shadow. Votes osie for voting voxx, as far as I can tell.
Gives a reason on voxx later, though. Says things are "confusing" repeatedly and describes things as flimsy or interesting often.
Says "this doesn't feel right" and then says will address it later.
"This seems out of nowhere, I was null now I'm scum?" <---- Doesn't something like this happen every game? Why would someone going from null to scum be surprising?
"Hm. question here: If Colin is scum regardless of my alignment, why vote me instead of him?
I'm considering voting you for these last two posts, but its so close to deadline I feel like there is a better lynch in Osie today." <---This just before voting Dota.
Leans list is thin here too, and I don't feel great about the posts surrounding it this time.
Talks about being confused again.
Bear unlikely to be lynched (???)
Describes Osie as "feeling off", ends with a shrug and a scum read.
"Neat"
He says "neat" four times so far this game, doesn't say "neat" once in his entire town iso in low fantasy. "Neat" is right up there with "interesting" and "off" and "confusing", which are all words that I instantly scum read when people say them. I mean, you can use them once in a while, but when it's in almost every post, it's a pattern
KillJoy not looking townie to me. The differences are vast.
Surface-wise it looks similar, lots of multiquotes, thin looking reads list, but below the surface, on the level of specifics, Killjoy looks wildly different.
@Shadow: Yeah, it was just really lazy and felt... blah.
PIZZA'S HERE! PIZZA PARTY!
Anyway.
You can't just go around telling people they taste like cardboard. It's rude.
My thought was that Bear was unlikely because we didn't have any discussion on him. It would have basically been a CFD which I'm not in general a huge fan of because it just feels randomish.
I mean, I know they're not. I get there's dynamics about how those things happen etc. Its just lynchong someone about whom we haven't had much discussion is the thing I find problematic. Does that make sense? Sometimes I just kinda ramble and don't make sense.
I feel like I'm kicking a puppy scum-reading you.
I also feel like you're gonna hate me for doing so regardless of your alignment. This already pains me.
Yeah I get how cfds can be bad for town, but that is not a cfd. That is three people thinking bear is scum, the same number as every top wagon at the time.
Cfd is when we move off of the top wagons and onto someone almost no one had discussed. In a game this small, being the tied top wagon and having 3 votes is not the same as a cfd.
In general, cfds are bad, yes. Specifically? This wasn't even one of those. It doesn't apply.
I feel like there's at least one wolf in Archon/Osieorb - Archon voted Shadow in RVS and then decided it was a real vote in #52. While it was a RVS vote at the time it was made, he felt the need to back it up with Actual Something. Now he's dismissed it as Not Actually Something That Ever Really Existed In The First Place (#102) while moving his vote to someone who agreed with him about it? Like, he's calling Osie shady for doing the same thing that he did? Does the concept of self-awareness exist here? (I would like #52 clarified if it wasn't... like,,, real?????) + Osie sheeping Archon's reasons for the vote with the near-immediate backdown after Voxx calls it out (and then? voting for voxx?) isn't that great, either. I don't think it's impossible for them to be together? but I don't think that one witch would immediately follow the other like that, especially since they're supposed to be long-time players or something... Mostly I just want them to fight each other and see what happens, tbh.
Where in #52 did I confirm that my vote was serious? I mentioned that his comment came across as cocky but I was just looking to engage with him about it. I did not expect a wagon to form and reach L-2, and Osieorb's comment that I had a good point (which I didn't) comes across to me as scum piggybacking onto the wagon so he can point out later that it was my reasoning that caused a mislynch.
What initially got my attention is that Shadow says he has never been lynched regardless of alignment except for that one time, and then later says that the game where he was lynched he was scum. So why not say I've never been lynched as town instead? It's not a good enough reason to push for a lynch but the wording does seem a bit odd to me.
@Voxx: You've said the Shadow wagon is bad, and asked that people analyse it, yet your vote is still there from your "Vote Shadow, Wagons!" post. What's up with that?
There you go, Reaverb. Both of the secret players have expressed townreads on me, and I didn't even have to coerce them.
Also I'm V/LA until Sunday night.
---
DoTA wagon miiight be pure. Kinda hesitant to scumread him for it, since doing that so strongly literally almost ruined Bare Bones and I thought I was 99% right.
DoTA. DoTAAA.
Look at the people voting you and the people who'd be okay voting you and tell me if you see scum + why.
Of the three voting me, I'm having difficulty in deciphering Jenna's posts, Tau's vote looks reasonable given his explanation as to why he's voting me, and I'm not sure about Torg. I would like for Torg to explain why he unvoted Tau without saying anything about it.
You;ve played a few games with me now and know how easily I'm lynched, do you think there's scum on my wagon?
@DoTA: Don't worry, I'm not mindmelding with you any more. What are you cooking? Poison?
@Shadow: Funny. I've scumread you for at least a bit of the game in every game that we've been in too. And that's the majority of games I've been in on the forum (I may have signed up for at least one of them seeing you were there, though… ). This game I basically just started actively reading people in the past couple days and you're looking pretty good (Oh, my...), not that that precludes a scumread on you in the future. I'm leaning a DotA-Voxx team right now, with the addition of one of Colin or Tubba. Thoughts?
Made a bacon and tomato pasta for dinner, it was good.
What makes you think that Voxx and I are aligned?
What have Colin/Tubba done that puts them on your radar as potential scum?
The part I made red: I believe this kind of suspicion on Osie. It was wrong, but I follow it. It makes sense, it's something I also look for, when scum are looking to lynch people easily or pile on attackable people by sheeping.
The part I made orange: This explains what Dota was thinking at the time. There's depth of thought and reasoning behind what he's doing, that was unstated at the time, and reads as part of a real process, which scums cannot remember because they never had those depths of thoughts, reasons, or processes. This line in particular indicates to me he is really solving or one of the best actors in the game.
The part I made purple: The part about Tau's vote. Votes can be wrong but the reasons can come from townies or scums. He's reading Tau based on the process Tau is using, as opposed to the vote, which from his POV is still wrong.
I see my town game in Dota's post. If it's him being scum, hats off to him.
The entire rest of his iso is sterling, but this post in particular hit several strong town tells in a row.
Unvote while I reevaluate. @Pizza
I tend to play every game differently.
I gave a reason for Voxx!Town. It's largely to do with his reputation. I forget which post but if you looked at my ISO then you've seen it.
I hadn't quite gotten around to saying it yet in thread, but ever since Voxx claimed to be roleblocked, I've had increasing paranoia on your slot. That is out of place for Voxx to do.
Although I will say I never voted DotA before today. There's a broken quote in there, but I revoted Osie shortly after.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Although I will say I never voted DotA before today. There's a broken quote in there, but I revoted Osie shortly after.
Okay, noted.
But you still had Osie and Dota as scum, your bottom 2 scums, in fact. And you were voting there today. Does this substantively change my point, or is this a minor correction?
Give me your takes on Torg and Bearfruit, as soon as you are able. Do you think either can be scum and if so, do you see the same Tom/lngrrr strategy of accusing a partner but pairing that partner with a townie and then voting that townie? Specifically with regards to Dota and Torg, involving grapefruit?
I feel like there's at least one wolf in Archon/Osieorb - Archon voted Shadow in RVS and then decided it was a real vote in #52. While it was a RVS vote at the time it was made, he felt the need to back it up with Actual Something. Now he's dismissed it as Not Actually Something That Ever Really Existed In The First Place (#102) while moving his vote to someone who agreed with him about it? Like, he's calling Osie shady for doing the same thing that he did? Does the concept of self-awareness exist here? (I would like #52 clarified if it wasn't... like,,, real?????) + Osie sheeping Archon's reasons for the vote with the near-immediate backdown after Voxx calls it out (and then? voting for voxx?) isn't that great, either. I don't think it's impossible for them to be together? but I don't think that one witch would immediately follow the other like that, especially since they're supposed to be long-time players or something... Mostly I just want them to fight each other and see what happens, tbh.
Where in #52 did I confirm that my vote was serious? I mentioned that his comment came across as cocky but I was just looking to engage with him about it. I did not expect a wagon to form and reach L-2, and Osieorb's comment that I had a good point (which I didn't) comes across to me as scum piggybacking onto the wagon so he can point out later that it was my reasoning that caused a mislynch.
What initially got my attention is that Shadow says he has never been lynched regardless of alignment except for that one time, and then later says that the game where he was lynched he was scum. So why not say I've never been lynched as town instead? It's not a good enough reason to push for a lynch but the wording does seem a bit odd to me.
@Voxx: You've said the Shadow wagon is bad, and asked that people analyse it, yet your vote is still there from your "Vote Shadow, Wagons!" post. What's up with that?
There you go, Reaverb. Both of the secret players have expressed townreads on me, and I didn't even have to coerce them.
Also I'm V/LA until Sunday night.
---
DoTA wagon miiight be pure. Kinda hesitant to scumread him for it, since doing that so strongly literally almost ruined Bare Bones and I thought I was 99% right.
DoTA. DoTAAA.
Look at the people voting you and the people who'd be okay voting you and tell me if you see scum + why.
Of the three voting me, I'm having difficulty in deciphering Jenna's posts, Tau's vote looks reasonable given his explanation as to why he's voting me, and I'm not sure about Torg. I would like for Torg to explain why he unvoted Tau without saying anything about it.
You;ve played a few games with me now and know how easily I'm lynched, do you think there's scum on my wagon?
@DoTA: Don't worry, I'm not mindmelding with you any more. What are you cooking? Poison?
@Shadow: Funny. I've scumread you for at least a bit of the game in every game that we've been in too. And that's the majority of games I've been in on the forum (I may have signed up for at least one of them seeing you were there, though… ). This game I basically just started actively reading people in the past couple days and you're looking pretty good (Oh, my...), not that that precludes a scumread on you in the future. I'm leaning a DotA-Voxx team right now, with the addition of one of Colin or Tubba. Thoughts?
Made a bacon and tomato pasta for dinner, it was good.
What makes you think that Voxx and I are aligned?
What have Colin/Tubba done that puts them on your radar as potential scum?
The part I made red: I believe this kind of suspicion on Osie. It was wrong, but I follow it. It makes sense, it's something I also look for, when scum are looking to lynch people easily or pile on attackable people by sheeping.
The part I made orange: This explains what Dota was thinking at the time. There's depth of thought and reasoning behind what he's doing, that was unstated at the time, and reads as part of a real process, which scums cannot remember because they never had those depths of thoughts, reasons, or processes. This line in particular indicates to me he is really solving or one of the best actors in the game.
The part I made purple: The part about Tau's vote. Votes can be wrong but the reasons can come from townies or scums. He's reading Tau based on the process Tau is using, as opposed to the vote, which from his POV is still wrong.
I see my town game in Dota's post. If it's him being scum, hats off to him.
The entire rest of his iso is sterling, but this post in particular hit several strong town tells in a row.
Hm. I kinda see where you're coming from? I read the orange originally as overly defensive and out of place, personally.
I'll have to look him over again to see if I can see the sterlingness of his ISO(won't happen today, I have work)
I've been teetering between town and scum for him.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hi PizzaGuy! Good to have some activity in this game! Also your read on Dota is pretty bad. You point to 121 as the crux but I don't agree with your conclusion at all. First though let's take a look at 102:
My vote on Shadow was RVS, was obviously not based on a read of any kind. Osieorb agreeing with my comment and subsequently voting Shadow however looks shady, I don't think my comment was reason enough to push for a lynch. I'll respond in more depth a little late but for now, Vote: Osieorb18
121 is the promised more in depth, but we have the action here. First Dota assumes that Osie's vote is 100% serious and not a glorified wagons! post like Voxx's was. Second this tactic is straight out of a scum playbook. Turning on another person on an RVS wagon while blocking off pushing others is scum 101. To accept this complete focus on Osie as town I'd really want to see justification for why the others on the wagon were townie and that just largely doesn't happen. And he never seems to show an interest in sorting out the rest of the wagon. Just stays focused on Osie.
I feel like there's at least one wolf in Archon/Osieorb - Archon voted Shadow in RVS and then decided it was a real vote in #52. While it was a RVS vote at the time it was made, he felt the need to back it up with Actual Something. Now he's dismissed it as Not Actually Something That Ever Really Existed In The First Place (#102) while moving his vote to someone who agreed with him about it? Like, he's calling Osie shady for doing the same thing that he did? Does the concept of self-awareness exist here? (I would like #52 clarified if it wasn't... like,,, real?????) + Osie sheeping Archon's reasons for the vote with the near-immediate backdown after Voxx calls it out (and then? voting for voxx?) isn't that great, either. I don't think it's impossible for them to be together? but I don't think that one witch would immediately follow the other like that, especially since they're supposed to be long-time players or something... Mostly I just want them to fight each other and see what happens, tbh.
Where in #52 did I confirm that my vote was serious? I mentioned that his comment came across as cocky but I was just looking to engage with him about it. I did not expect a wagon to form and reach L-2, and Osieorb's comment that I had a good point (which I didn't) comes across to me as scum piggybacking onto the wagon so he can point out later that it was my reasoning that caused a mislynch.
What initially got my attention is that Shadow says he has never been lynched regardless of alignment except for that one time, and then later says that the game where he was lynched he was scum. So why not say I've never been lynched as town instead? It's not a good enough reason to push for a lynch but the wording does seem a bit odd to me.
@Voxx: You've said the Shadow wagon is bad, and asked that people analyse it, yet your vote is still there from your "Vote Shadow, Wagons!" post. What's up with that?
Here Dota explains his reasoning on Osie more thoroughly. And it's fine. Osie hopping onto that saying Dota had a point seems over eager and scummy. But then Dota engages in a waffle where he kind of admits osie had a point by saying Shadow's quote was odd. That feels like trying to have it both ways and keep your options open.
The question to Voxx is good, but he never follows up, he never pressures Voxx or explains a town read. Red flag.
There you go, Reaverb. Both of the secret players have expressed townreads on me, and I didn't even have to coerce them.
Also I'm V/LA until Sunday night.
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DoTA wagon miiight be pure. Kinda hesitant to scumread him for it, since doing that so strongly literally almost ruined Bare Bones and I thought I was 99% right.
DoTA. DoTAAA.
Look at the people voting you and the people who'd be okay voting you and tell me if you see scum + why.
Of the three voting me, I'm having difficulty in deciphering Jenna's posts, Tau's vote looks reasonable given his explanation as to why he's voting me, and I'm not sure about Torg. I would like for Torg to explain why he unvoted Tau without saying anything about it.
You;ve played a few games with me now and know how easily I'm lynched, do you think there's scum on my wagon?
I actually really dislike this approach to Tau's vote. It feels like going out of his way to appease Tau more than saying the process looks good. If he thought the reasoning was good I would have expected a stronger engagement with it rather than just acknowledging it and moving on. Also the follow up question is vaguely AtE-ish.
@DoTA: Don't worry, I'm not mindmelding with you any more. What are you cooking? Poison?
@Shadow: Funny. I've scumread you for at least a bit of the game in every game that we've been in too. And that's the majority of games I've been in on the forum (I may have signed up for at least one of them seeing you were there, though… ). This game I basically just started actively reading people in the past couple days and you're looking pretty good (Oh, my...), not that that precludes a scumread on you in the future. I'm leaning a DotA-Voxx team right now, with the addition of one of Colin or Tubba. Thoughts?
Made a bacon and tomato pasta for dinner, it was good.
What makes you think that Voxx and I are aligned?
What have Colin/Tubba done that puts them on your radar as potential scum?
And again fine, but nothing that jumps out at me as alignment indicative either way here.
So I'm really not seeing this a sterling example of a lock town post. Especially not one I'd choose to no lynch over.
Also want to add at this point that his 57 and lack of follow up on it is eyebrow raising. He talks about Jenna being hard to sort out but doesn't follow up on a early seemingly important question. Shadow does the same thing which again eyebrows.
Also worth noting Voxx soft defends Dota in 222 so this is yet another connection between those two slots. There has been a lot of protecting of Dota from that slot.
Here is another post that shows an example of Dota's selective focus (edited down for brevity):
I might not have been clear. I was referring to 52->shadow being about semantics. You say he's cocky. Why does that mean anything?
Shadow being cocky doesn't necessarily mean anything, I was just engaging with him regarding his post to see how he would react. I didn't expect the reaction I got from the rest of the players(except Osie who barned and voted)
Also, in rereading the above quote, and your ISO, I have another question for you: Can you explain the mindset about #57? What were you thinking when you posted it, what you were looking for in an answer, etc.
Jenna's first post of the game was a naked vote on Shadow, and it put him at L-2. And it came straight after Silver had posted a vote count. I wanted to know if Jenna was scumreading Shadow or just jumping on the wagon, and why.
He explains his reasoning for turning on Osie again here and spends an equal amount of time pointing out that Jenna's vote was also bad. But continues to leave his vote parked on Osie while not interacting with Osie, Jenna, or commenting on either of their newer posts. He is content with the cases he made early and is sitting on them.
King Torg: Scum. Voted Tau for the over-explanatory post but then unvoted without saying anything. Lolclaimed scum for some reason. Not sure what "a professional mafia player" is and how I gave them the impression I was one. @King Torg: 1)Why the unvote? 2)In the same post that you say Osie is getting progressively townier you call him scum "for lack of stronger reads right now". Why arent you voting for Osie then?
Shows an interest in keeping the Osie wagon alive, but these are good questions. That Torg hasn't answered.
Jenna: No clue. I can't read these posts. Some kinda make sense while others just leave me scratching my head. I will admit to getting OTGIII flashbacks, but that's more of a personal issue than anything necessarily game related.
And his lack of interest in figuring Jenna out is tough. On one hand Jenna is not easy to read at all. On the other Jenna is kind of really important to the way he's trying to solve the game (figuring out Shadow's wagon) and his lack of engagement there is a slight red flag over all. It's not like he'd been asking questions and getting non answers like others had, he's just kind of letting it happen.
And that's pretty much it for D1. He lynches Osie when his reasoning never evolves past "he agreed with a point he shouldn't have from my case". He never really interacts further or builds more of a case. Just that one "gotcha" moment and the vote rides all the way out. And this is despite Dota questioning at various points Torg and Jenna but never really follows up on it. Just let's them coast and is happy with the Osie lynch. He also never explains town reads on you/Voxx and Vaimes and why he was happy with the way they entered the wagon. Just kind of accepted as a belief.
Then D2 he reiterates a bunch of Osie's questions to Jenna (389) before putting her in his town leans in 418 with no real progression in between or any sort of explanation. 402 and 417 being his only posts in between. Which doesn't jive with his stance from D1 at all.
Last point of interest is his dipping his toe in the water push on Torg in 442. Doesn't even make a case just implores someone else to explain why he is town. At a time when Torg was starting to catch heat.
TLDR: Dota coasts with his vote on Osie. Doesn't show interest in sorting out things he said he was interested in, and has repeated opportunistic behavior (Turning on Osie off the wagon, imploring others to make a case for town Torg). My vote isn't moving.
There is a vote on someone with reasons, and then no reason given for a hard unvote a day later. I have found that no reason hard unvotes (unvote without voting a new suspect) are good generic scum tells.
Although I will say I never voted DotA before today. There's a broken quote in there, but I revoted Osie shortly after.
Okay, noted.
But you still had Osie and Dota as scum, your bottom 2 scums, in fact. And you were voting there today. Does this substantively change my point, or is this a minor correction?
Give me your takes on Torg and Bearfruit, as soon as you are able. Do you think either can be scum and if so, do you see the same Tom/lngrrr strategy of accusing a partner but pairing that partner with a townie and then voting that townie? Specifically with regards to Dota and Torg, involving grapefruit?
If it's not that, what is the difference?
Your point makes it seem like I said Osie was scum then immediately voted DotA. It literally says "this just before voting DotA".
I was tunneling Osie yesterday. You can see my case on him near end of Day. My read on DotA was not quite town not quite scum which is a place that I don't tend to think townies tend to stay for very long if at all. He has been there all game for me so far.
This'll sound bad but I have no read on Torg, I've been meaning to reevaluate my Bear read because I had it down to "critically thinking" which it turns out isn't necessarily a towntell, and Grape is one I'm on the process of figuring out. He should prove easier than Bear was. Nothing on him yhet though.
I'm off day after tomorrow and plan on delving into that reading then.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
What was the weird thing you noticed about Bear's post? I understand Grape can't speak for Bear, but it could still be useful. Were you planning to say more? If so, what?
(For the class: The rest of this Killjoy post convinced me he has done this)
So here's where I am right now:
Jenna
(Really large gap here)
Shadow/Voxx
King Torg
grapefruit (r. Bear)
Killjoy/Colin
TubbaFett
DotA
Vote: DoTA
Anyway I am slightly irked by Killjoy being on this wagon, which probably means it's time to break out the votal analysis.
On the players I'm willing to lynch toDay:
I dislike DoTA for the same reasons as I disliked him Day 1, plus this Day phase he completely abandoned his "read through everybody's ISOs in inverse order of length" project.
TubbaFett's scumread of Voxx seems designed to screw with me personally because I have talked in past about how good it is for scum to push on Voxx's player archetype while not giving reads on anybody else but it's also something scum have been terrified to do historically. I think it's some net townpoints, but not enough to dig him out of his hole. His engagement with Colin seems fine, but he hasn't done much else.
I did read/skim TubbaFett's ISO in his other scumgame but I don't think it's indicative. He did change his tone a lot - he's using first person a lot less this game - but I don't think his approach to the game has changed all that much. He hasn't done anything dramatic like post readslists or try to learn votal analysis for this game, and minor changes could easily be knowing that he would be exposed as scum in Low Fantasy before this game ended.
---
@TubbaFett What are your top 3 townreads and top 3 scumreads and why? If Voxx is on the list, feel free to name drop them and skip the explaination.
By "empirical evidence" I was expecting Jeanna to quote the posts that made them feel off on Vaimes.
As far as the empirical evidence, it seems like a pretty odd word choice regardless, but I'll drop that one.
I have this pit in my stomach because of the apathy this game, like no one seems to care what anyone else has to say.
Dota, you threw up Torg's iso and said "look, scum!" Can you dig into why?
Reaverb, you voted Dota, skimmed over him and then went much more in depth on Tubba. Are you that confident in Dota's alignment; do you really have nothing to ask him?
Jenna, by the spoils of victory, do you actually think that town is in a good position here? Like bonus points if you're scum gloating that opening, but I don't think you are.
Killjoy, aside from it just being lazy, why exactly is Dota's post "terrible".
Voxx....I get it, real life...but do something please.
Grapefruit...actually I think you're scum. Who are your top suspects right now and what are you doing to figure them out.
Vote grapefruit
I know I said that Dota Torg were likely lynch candidates, but we have enough time to pivot. Somebody talk to be about their thoughts on grapefruit. Someone talk about something! Let's kickstart this game again.
Talk to me about his progression. Also, you kinda promised to catch up and post and then never really delivered much. What happened with that?
I didn't feel like there was much worth commenting on. I did my catch up and it ended up being pretty short. And right. I was so pocketed I forgot again... I was just thinking of our neighbor chats and your reluctance to push there forgetting that you knew his alignment at the time...
As for his progression Dota flipping on Osie in this way just doesn't feel natural. This is in regards to the flash wagon at the start:
That sort of jump for agreeing with him is just a weird jump to make. It's also the sort of play I've made as scum to get through RVS. Hop off a hot wagon and turn on someone you think you can push on it.
He also calls Torg scum in 265 on flimsy reasoning (why is voting someone for an over explainy RVS a bad thing?) and asks a couple of questions. He never follows up on them or presses Torg for answers. He then puts him in the scum side of his meh pile in 418 saying he needs to reread. Then he just posts a link to the ISO and says make a case why Torg is town. It's the sort of non engaged fishing expedition that comes from scum more often than not.
There's little to do except relax while the votes come in on Archon and Torg. Additional villains, should they exist, can be hunted after this chapter is closed.
Jenna, I don't feel like the game is that simple.
I kinda want to see what Pizza's take here is and then go from there, because I can't see the scum through the trees in this forest.
Grapefruit, why not at least say that there was nothing really to comment on?
Dota, who are King Torg's partners and why are you town?
This is not true, I either have no active abilities or they were not used on night one. I don't quite understand why the slot was playing fancy like that, but since I don't understand the plan I'm totally abandoning it. (Sorry! I'm sure it made sense to you, and I play fancy as town as well so...)
It's important in case I die and then people misread the game for mechanical reasons. If I understood what was meant to be accomplished by that I'd even be in favor of maintaining the lie.
Hi everyone. After burning myself out 800 posting in an under 3000 post game as town recently, I am self-imposing rules and restrictions on my play here, to limit my compulsiveness. If I can't, I just won't play anymore at all.
So, you will see stark differences in how I approach this game as you will have seen in the past several town games of mine. Meta won't help you in the generic sense.
I've read almost all the game in preparation to sub in, simply to understand what happened. I'm glad I wasn't here on day one, because a lot of stuff happened there that would make me too grumpy to want to continue.
Thanks. After misreading you once, and then reading you correctly only to have it slip away the instant Anak flipped town, I'm going to stuff my way of reading you into the trash can and pretend I've never played mafia before.
I didn't have my alignment yet when I began reading the game, and I'm all caught up now (skimming though, not deep analysis)
But, my interest revolves around the KillJoy slot and the Tubba slot.
Tubba looks different. Very different. At the same time, I was getting pings of maybe this guy is scum while reading him, and different doesn't always mean he's not scum here. That said... other stuff he's doing is putting him into serious contention for my first town read. And he is really different.
He didn't buy Voxx's claim at all and has been warning people not to believe it. I don't see him doing that as scum (often).
Tubba, you were correct. I don't know how, but you were.
KillJoy is like one of my favorite persons ever and I want him to be town with me here, but I kind of feel like there was meat behind the push on KJ. I have to analyze it more closely, but I'm very interested in the slot.
I am also amused by Jenna and how they're playing. Don't know if I have an alignment whiff there yet, but I am a fan.
Last game I got town reads off of a very special player (tm) for being really undiplomatic to people and ateing forever, as scum, but. That doesn't usually happen to me I promise.
Still, I'll be more carefully and fully iso and examine the slot from both angles before putting them on my page.
I won't count this post. If I go over this amount, someone slap me in the face or contact my wife and tell her to cut me off.
It's interesting enough to note, like say if he were the scum roleblocker, he'd know then that Voxx wasn't blocked by him. But it's also something all his teammates should be shouting at him to not mention. Then again I don't know if he'd listen. Not everyone thinks that claiming roleblocker is a scum claim the same way I do, he could be pretending to be a town roleblocker while being a scum one.
But town tracker died, and town roleblocker shouldn't know that Voxx wasn't roleblocked, since a scum roleblocker is always possible, in fact it's usually included in my experience.
But, if he's got like a role cop or something, he might know. I think there's plenty of ways for him to know that don't necessarily make him scum for it. It's also really, really inadvisable for him to push this point as scum.
That plus how he's playing differently make me want to disregard some of my gut feels and focus on the majority read, which is that this behavior shouldn't be coming from a scum slot. I admit, it is possible.
The first two posts of this ISO are a problem in my book. There is a vote on someone with reasons, and then no reason given for a hard unvote a day later. I have found that no reason hard unvotes (unvote without voting a new suspect) are good generic scum tells. Townies don't often do this because stuff townies do has to make sense from a solving perspective, because they are trying to solve.
Couple days later, votes DOTA. Gives a reason that doesn't go into detail. For me to understand Torg, they have to explain their vote on DOTA in their third post. Also the post has a distinctly wolfy shape. Psychologically, Torg is distancing himself from his vote on DOTA by talking about irrelevancies in the first line, and then giving a generic reason and vote in the second line. It's not too committal and it is defensible. But usually when townies find scums they make it the most important thing they're posting about, not the least important thing.
There can be variance, but even this third post from Torg is wrong (to me).
Asks about Dota and Osi next.
Next post on the 9th, is going into more detail on why Dota is scum. I can believe this is a reason he can believe. But it also feels opportunistic. I'd have to read dota closely and see if I agree. And look at how the dota suspicion could have been formed. Sounds like in the post on the 12th, he's admitting some kind of faulty premise for his vote on Dota anyway, something that could have been overlooked in a hasty rush to condemn a townie voting awkwardly, perhaps. But my opinion is colored already, so I need to see those posts before deciding, outside of this iso.
Next post, I see Dota subscribes to my hard unvote theory too.
Didn't see this part,
"@Whoever asked me for my read on Osi and Voxx Osi's 1st few posts seemed pretty scummy to me, but appears to be getting steadily townier. For lack of stronger reads as of right now, I'd say he's scum."
That's a complex thought, which I tend to read villagery. Not sure if I believe it yet, but noted.
Don't like the leans list on the 20th. Feels like the DOTA push was deliberately sidelined. Tau suddenly at the top is strange.
What I'm getting from Torg in summary are pushes that feel easy, like pouncing on attackable people. I don't know if I town read all of them yet, but I get a sense that Torg doesn't believe in his own pushes as well. Otherwise they'd have more detail, attempt to persuade people, and they wouldn't be so easily dropped. Don't like how Osie was trending townier and then still got voted. When people trend villagery for me I tend to back off, in spite of earlier scum vibes.
I see how Torg can be scum, and I lean scum on Torg. This can be adjusted if I fill in the rest of the people and his slot makes more sense with that new data. But as of now, I am only seeing a mild townie tell which I think can even be wrong in this case because of what ended up happening. If you had that complex thought, you should follow up consistently, but throwing Osie out after trending townie isn't something I can town read.
Understandable that you have to lynch someone day one, but instead of pushing actual suspect dota harder, opted to lynch Osie. Makes me think any townie read from Torg's slot will be worthless and cast aside. The follow up on Dota is also unimpressive.
Tl;dr
Greater than rand this slot is scum, but without more data I won't settle on it as my judgment. Not a lock, just a lean. Also, I don't have a very complete picture yet.
scums before osie flip were osie, dota, tubba, and jenna. Scums after osie flip were the same, minus osie.
No re-examination? When I mislynch someone I re-assess. Doesn't mean I let go of all my suspicions but it's interesting that the bottom 3 are the same as the bottom 4 on day one, without examining a lot of people up his list.
Doesn't feel like good towning to me. Maybe it's bad towning, maybe he's correct about everyone else by magic, but I don't think that rigidity between d1 and d2 makes sense from a solving POV.
It looks more like when tom was lining up the mislynches last game. Similar rigidity between before and after mislynching someone. No reassess.
I'd be lying if it was just that one post though. The rest of his iso so far looks good, but that one post is fantastic. Depth of reads, depth of thoughts not revealed in initial posts, complex thoughts, solving questions, and similar reads to my own, all contained within one post.
If this is possible from scum-dota someone has to say something because he's now my top town read.
Uh do you think I've been undiplomatic and ateing? That definitely wasn't my intent.
----
@Shadow "weak" was your first and last point. I find it weird that you're giving multiple interpretations of my actions without discussing probabilities /which interpretation you think is more likely.
----
Still working on my votal analysis (expect it tomorrow) but anybody (@grapefruit21 @Jenna) who thinks DoTA/Torg are buddies should look closer at their D1 interactions King Torg got on DoTA early and stayed there all Day. I really doubt they're w/w.
If the lynch were somehow between myself and dota, I'd be voting whoever dota and I both agreed was scum and letting a no lynch happen. Whoever has a scum read on dota has explaining to do. I'd struggle to lynch dota if it were just him and me left in the game and I was a double voter. I'd be like... did the game end already and the game host is just trolling us?
We're not masons, btw. Just not lynching there probably ever.
No, not at all. I'm comparing something generic, not specific, in that the first person I town read last game was scum. I nailed almost every other read, but got sloppy with the first one.
BTW you should unvote dota and vote for Torg, and after that, I'm leaning grapefruit. On this page alone I see him connecting torg with others, the way tom and lngrrr did last game, before torg flips, but voting tau. That's not right, that's distancing while mislynching.
I haven't even iso'ed Grapefruit but I'm this close to shooting him in the face for that alone.
With love grapefruit, all in good fun and game related, yours truly askthepizzaguy.
Bold blue; confused names. Meant Dota.
Why not?
Bear has two suspects and an rvs vote on colin that took them forever to hard unvote. This person is struggling and lurking in plain sight and masking it with wordy posts.
Grapefruit is pulling a tomlngrrr on Dota and Torg, namely Torg being the scummo and Dota being the townie.
kill Grapefruit with fire.
If you lynch Dota over this person, I'll be titled beyond belief.
What I'm seeing here is that Colin is a townie and really wanted to play with bear, and that is skewing their perception of the slot and the game. Also sheeped bear in some of their conflicted reads. Not good.
Friends know how to manipulate friends. Colin's iso is deep, despite the low post count. Every read besides a couple of the ones that were sheepy seemed well argued and fleshed out.
I wouldn't put Colin as high as DOTA but I very much like this slot. If I have a specialty it's reading people with few posts, and I feel quite confident on this slot.
Torg, Bear/fruit scum
Dota, Colin town
Killjoy still needs a look.
This vote tally feels important, especially if bear is scum. Osie and Vaimes both flipped town and I'm town. Dota reads super town and osie, again, flipped town. I think I like reaverb in a loose sense (need to iso) and also shadow a little bit, based on the read of the game up to this post, and Colin based on the iso. Think the scumbags are on Dota and Osie especially if bear is scum.
I'm in the middle of isoing Killjoy and I'm getting absolutely not a danged thing from any of his posts up to this point. Just feels like endless multiquoting and questions that only superficially pertain to anything. It feels different to last game, somehow. I have to check and see what if anything the differences are. Like, in the posts leading up to the DOTA vote, I don't feel anything. It all tastes like cardboard.
This is just after the tally where it's 3-3-3.
I don't see how bear isn't an option here. Disagree with the option, sure, but it was an option.
PIZZA'S HERE! PIZZA PARTY!
Anyway.
You can't just go around telling people they taste like cardboard. It's rude.
My thought was that Bear was unlikely because we didn't have any discussion on him. It would have basically been a CFD which I'm not in general a huge fan of because it just feels randomish.
I mean, I know they're not. I get there's dynamics about how those things happen etc. Its just lynchong someone about whom we haven't had much discussion is the thing I find problematic. Does that make sense? Sometimes I just kinda ramble and don't make sense.
Pizza talk to me more about DotA.
That one post you pointed out. What about it do you like?
Low Fantasy-
Gets out of rvs as quickly as possible, and gives 3 actual reads in his second post.
About 4 posts in his iso and 200 posts in the game total, he begins doing serious analysis, and painting a picture. He reverses his town read on lurker (amazing, btw... he fooled a lot of people that game) and begins to town read latin.
Posts are all sharp, pointed, solving.
Leans list is thin. If it wasn't for all his other posts that game, I'd have scum read him for his leans list.
Still sharp, pointed and questioning folks like tom. figuring out folks like rodemy by questioning/conversing. Complex thoughts posts.
Makes a lot of posts with assuredness and gives superlatives and going out on a limb like "I don't see X ever being scum here"
"I'm so confident that Anak is scum that I'll be ok with being shot tonight if I'm wrong."
Here-
Snaps voxx as town, doesn't give a reason. Says he's getting town vibes from shadow. Votes osie for voting voxx, as far as I can tell.
Gives a reason on voxx later, though. Says things are "confusing" repeatedly and describes things as flimsy or interesting often.
Says "this doesn't feel right" and then says will address it later.
"This seems out of nowhere, I was null now I'm scum?" <---- Doesn't something like this happen every game? Why would someone going from null to scum be surprising?
"Hm. question here: If Colin is scum regardless of my alignment, why vote me instead of him?
I'm considering voting you for these last two posts, but its so close to deadline I feel like there is a better lynch in Osie today." <---This just before voting Dota.
Leans list is thin here too, and I don't feel great about the posts surrounding it this time.
Talks about being confused again.
Bear unlikely to be lynched (???)
Describes Osie as "feeling off", ends with a shrug and a scum read.
"Neat"
He says "neat" four times so far this game, doesn't say "neat" once in his entire town iso in low fantasy. "Neat" is right up there with "interesting" and "off" and "confusing", which are all words that I instantly scum read when people say them. I mean, you can use them once in a while, but when it's in almost every post, it's a pattern
KillJoy not looking townie to me. The differences are vast.
Surface-wise it looks similar, lots of multiquotes, thin looking reads list, but below the surface, on the level of specifics, Killjoy looks wildly different.
I feel like I'm kicking a puppy scum-reading you.
I also feel like you're gonna hate me for doing so regardless of your alignment. This already pains me.
Yeah I get how cfds can be bad for town, but that is not a cfd. That is three people thinking bear is scum, the same number as every top wagon at the time.
Cfd is when we move off of the top wagons and onto someone almost no one had discussed. In a game this small, being the tied top wagon and having 3 votes is not the same as a cfd.
In general, cfds are bad, yes. Specifically? This wasn't even one of those. It doesn't apply.
The part I made red: I believe this kind of suspicion on Osie. It was wrong, but I follow it. It makes sense, it's something I also look for, when scum are looking to lynch people easily or pile on attackable people by sheeping.
The part I made orange: This explains what Dota was thinking at the time. There's depth of thought and reasoning behind what he's doing, that was unstated at the time, and reads as part of a real process, which scums cannot remember because they never had those depths of thoughts, reasons, or processes. This line in particular indicates to me he is really solving or one of the best actors in the game.
The part I made purple: The part about Tau's vote. Votes can be wrong but the reasons can come from townies or scums. He's reading Tau based on the process Tau is using, as opposed to the vote, which from his POV is still wrong.
I see my town game in Dota's post. If it's him being scum, hats off to him.
The entire rest of his iso is sterling, but this post in particular hit several strong town tells in a row.
@Pizza
I tend to play every game differently.
I gave a reason for Voxx!Town. It's largely to do with his reputation. I forget which post but if you looked at my ISO then you've seen it.
I hadn't quite gotten around to saying it yet in thread, but ever since Voxx claimed to be roleblocked, I've had increasing paranoia on your slot. That is out of place for Voxx to do.
Although I will say I never voted DotA before today. There's a broken quote in there, but I revoted Osie shortly after.
Also, neat is just a thing I say IRL.
I'd love post numbers for the rest though...
I haven't isoed him closely but that means a lot to me after seeing him in Low Fantasy.
If you cannot outpost Jenna who is being cryptic and being an entertaining character, then your posts must all be amazingly townie.
A couple people have met that standard for me. Everyone else has a lot of work to do.
On my home forum, if you're being outposted by choxorn, you're having a bad game. Here, I'm setting it at under 10 posts a week.
It's not even the count, it's the quality. If your count is small, the quality needs to be phenomenal.
I've spent many hours on this game and I am cutting myself off here. Good night.
Okay, noted.
But you still had Osie and Dota as scum, your bottom 2 scums, in fact. And you were voting there today. Does this substantively change my point, or is this a minor correction?
Give me your takes on Torg and Bearfruit, as soon as you are able. Do you think either can be scum and if so, do you see the same Tom/lngrrr strategy of accusing a partner but pairing that partner with a townie and then voting that townie? Specifically with regards to Dota and Torg, involving grapefruit?
If it's not that, what is the difference?
I'll have to look him over again to see if I can see the sterlingness of his ISO(won't happen today, I have work)
I've been teetering between town and scum for him.
I'll respond to 496 after work sometime.
121 is the promised more in depth, but we have the action here. First Dota assumes that Osie's vote is 100% serious and not a glorified wagons! post like Voxx's was. Second this tactic is straight out of a scum playbook. Turning on another person on an RVS wagon while blocking off pushing others is scum 101. To accept this complete focus on Osie as town I'd really want to see justification for why the others on the wagon were townie and that just largely doesn't happen. And he never seems to show an interest in sorting out the rest of the wagon. Just stays focused on Osie.
Here Dota explains his reasoning on Osie more thoroughly. And it's fine. Osie hopping onto that saying Dota had a point seems over eager and scummy. But then Dota engages in a waffle where he kind of admits osie had a point by saying Shadow's quote was odd. That feels like trying to have it both ways and keep your options open.
The question to Voxx is good, but he never follows up, he never pressures Voxx or explains a town read. Red flag.
I actually really dislike this approach to Tau's vote. It feels like going out of his way to appease Tau more than saying the process looks good. If he thought the reasoning was good I would have expected a stronger engagement with it rather than just acknowledging it and moving on. Also the follow up question is vaguely AtE-ish.
And again fine, but nothing that jumps out at me as alignment indicative either way here.
So I'm really not seeing this a sterling example of a lock town post. Especially not one I'd choose to no lynch over.
Also want to add at this point that his 57 and lack of follow up on it is eyebrow raising. He talks about Jenna being hard to sort out but doesn't follow up on a early seemingly important question. Shadow does the same thing which again eyebrows.
Also worth noting Voxx soft defends Dota in 222 so this is yet another connection between those two slots. There has been a lot of protecting of Dota from that slot.
Here is another post that shows an example of Dota's selective focus (edited down for brevity):
He explains his reasoning for turning on Osie again here and spends an equal amount of time pointing out that Jenna's vote was also bad. But continues to leave his vote parked on Osie while not interacting with Osie, Jenna, or commenting on either of their newer posts. He is content with the cases he made early and is sitting on them.
Shows an interest in keeping the Osie wagon alive, but these are good questions. That Torg hasn't answered.
And his lack of interest in figuring Jenna out is tough. On one hand Jenna is not easy to read at all. On the other Jenna is kind of really important to the way he's trying to solve the game (figuring out Shadow's wagon) and his lack of engagement there is a slight red flag over all. It's not like he'd been asking questions and getting non answers like others had, he's just kind of letting it happen.
And that's pretty much it for D1. He lynches Osie when his reasoning never evolves past "he agreed with a point he shouldn't have from my case". He never really interacts further or builds more of a case. Just that one "gotcha" moment and the vote rides all the way out. And this is despite Dota questioning at various points Torg and Jenna but never really follows up on it. Just let's them coast and is happy with the Osie lynch. He also never explains town reads on you/Voxx and Vaimes and why he was happy with the way they entered the wagon. Just kind of accepted as a belief.
Then D2 he reiterates a bunch of Osie's questions to Jenna (389) before putting her in his town leans in 418 with no real progression in between or any sort of explanation. 402 and 417 being his only posts in between. Which doesn't jive with his stance from D1 at all.
Last point of interest is his dipping his toe in the water push on Torg in 442. Doesn't even make a case just implores someone else to explain why he is town. At a time when Torg was starting to catch heat.
TLDR: Dota coasts with his vote on Osie. Doesn't show interest in sorting out things he said he was interested in, and has repeated opportunistic behavior (Turning on Osie off the wagon, imploring others to make a case for town Torg). My vote isn't moving.
To drown in the unexpected.
Vote Torg
I was tunneling Osie yesterday. You can see my case on him near end of Day. My read on DotA was not quite town not quite scum which is a place that I don't tend to think townies tend to stay for very long if at all. He has been there all game for me so far.
This'll sound bad but I have no read on Torg, I've been meaning to reevaluate my Bear read because I had it down to "critically thinking" which it turns out isn't necessarily a towntell, and Grape is one I'm on the process of figuring out. He should prove easier than Bear was. Nothing on him yhet though.
I'm off day after tomorrow and plan on delving into that reading then.