The scummiest behaviour on that wagon was Osie's. Dot's is a close second, but following along with his crummy reason to lynch Shadow seems worse. Once King and Voxx mention how bad it is, Osie is the first to jump. That's when I felt pretty good voting that slot, but the deadline was miles away so it seemed fine to wait and see what else happened.
Wow, I sound like a newb with no confidence, no common sense, and no courage. That's depressing. I should introduce my boss to you; you two might get along...
Though he might not care for Carl the Ghost Panda.
@Osie
I'm not trying to imply you or any other ghost based animal is bad at this game. If anything, I'm bad at this game. Your vote, followed by your unvote shortly after is the scummiest behaviour I've noticed. I've no interest in personally attacking anyone, or trying to put them down. Maybe we have a communication mixup here but I'm just trying to play a game. Stop with the cryptic ghost/Claritin/Niagra Falls/panda stuff and maybe we can figure this out.
@Tau
I don't know what to tell you. You're really hung up on my RVS vote, and I've gotta say, I don't get it. What percentage of random votes end up being serious? When it's a vote that matters, when I'm actually making a statement about how I feel the game is going, I prefer to have more information, to take more time. When it's a throwaway random vote, not so much.
Town. Don't want to comment further right now, if they're scum they wouldn't have had a chance to talk to their teammates, which is why I tried to engage with them specifically.
That assumes there's no non-kill Night 0. But certainly throughout the day they wouldn't.
I'd say Vaimes seems like the least likely; it feels like there is too much town to go on. Probably Jenna would be my first pick there at the moment. Voxx would run a close second, but I also want to hear more from Voxx. I feel that as the starting point of the wagon, DoTA is contextually separate, actually. Like, his presence is noted, but not nearly as relevant, unless there's two scum in that group.
Ptap, some personal stuff happened and I'm not in any state to read or respond.
Stay safe. Real life comes first.
I do not like practically anything in this post. From the vague request for me to expound on things that were made quite clear (note from the future: RT saintly points this out as well), to the response to TF that initially starts with a "suppose there were one" that ends in a supposition there could be two. And I think it began as zero.
I will admit my thoughts on TF were the one thing that wasn't explained, and as of this time, I can't recall the reason for that. Perhaps it hasn't occurred in my timeline yet.
This is just sad. You can do better than that scummy twisted presentation of things.
~~~~~~~~~~
Here's a list of questions that you have evaded or not answered at all over the course of the game. I'm not holding out hope, but maybe you can provide solid answers to even one of them.
Perhaps I have played mafia before. Or I have played it in the future. Perhaps this is my first game of this sort while communicating on a message board and not in real life. It is also likely that I browsed the other mafia games going on and thought, "yes JT, this looks like A Thing You Could Do."
What empirical evidence makes or made Vaimes more likely to be a member of the mafia than any other player, give others players have not posted at all?
I believe I made it clear that the empirical evidence, to use your emphasis, exists in the future. The current existence is simply Words On A Screen that evoke distrust. Unless, you are suggesting I express personal reasons outside of my Words On A Screen, in which I must respectfully decline. I don't feel it is acceptable to ask anyone for... Words Beyond A Screen.
Your question implies that the answer should be the opposite of what you expect me to say. I think you are smarter than that and do not need An Explanation For Your Actions. Your question is simultaneously answered and not answered in no temporal manner.
2. Could you please expound on where you're coming from on the following quotes?
King Torg is someone I wouldn't trust with a secret.
Unless, you are suggesting I express personal reasons outside of my Words On A Screen, in which I must respectfully decline. I don't feel it is acceptable to ask anyone for... Words Beyond A Screen.
@Jenna Tolaria: No comprehension of perception of cautionary response? Hmph. Either you're audacious, feckless, or naive. I'm inclined to the second, but willing to consider the first. I really hope it's not the last. If it's the first, good luck with that. Second, why? Do you have that much confidence? Last, that's unfortunate.
Jenna-
I like #73's point on DoTA which I didn't notice until they pointed it out and I don't think #103 is likely to come from scum (Either Vox is co-aligned scum or known Town pushing "one of the dudes on this wagon is scum" and instead of trying to doubtcast their wagon-mates they try to dispel the entire motion) I am a bit concerned about their question dodging (which I was intentionally not bringing up until Osie mentioned it).
#76 (which I'm assuming is what you meant) is good, but could just as easily come from scum.
#103 is completely NAI to me.
Why are you not paying attention to Jenna's question dodging? It's extremely blatant and extremely scummy.
shadow asked me (and it feels like a looong time ago) why a bear is fishy, which...really? Because they didn't have a vote on someone they thought was most likely scum. I know I said this, though maybe it was in two separate posts.
Kiiinda think Reaverb is town, but this read revolves around how he's handled me so I'm super biased, but from his POV I'm not sure I'm the most useful player to pocket, so ?? Genuine progression perhaps.
Jenna feels like mislynch bait. Can't really substantiate that read, but I know it when I feel it. People are free to continue poking at her, though.
I'm going to throw down where I'm at. If I get your gender wrong I'm sorry, I'm just typing instinctively and I have no idea who any of you are (apart from the Bear).
The most important thing I think town should know about me is that I am an emotional player and tend to trust my feelings and instinct more than actual content, but only if those feelings are especially strong. Also, this doesn't mean I don't take note of content because I do. I'll to give a loose example; if I have a strong feeling that someone is mafia, they'll have to produce more substantial content from a town perspective than someone who I have no strong feelings about in order for me to read them town. Of course the opposite applies too.
Reaverb Tau;
I still have issues with the opening, but I've been over that in a previous post so I'm not going to push this point further at this stage.
The rest of the content has a town tone to it, and there's a few good points in his push on Tubba (which holds a lot more weight if osie is town), and his round-up of the game so far is pretty good I think.
shadowlancerx;
Upon re-reading I've flipped on him. I read his opening town. It seems natural and uninhibited. It's looking like he's eager to get in to the game and get actual information flowing.
I don't really have anything to add to this. The rest of his posts I'm getting a slightly town tone read, but nothing is jumping out as either alignment.
Vaimes;
Now this is an opening that I don't like. The interaction with Voxx comes across as someone trying too hard to blend in. The short posts of no actual value in quick succession is creating the illusion of content. The interaction with shadow is one that doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth either, shadow's looking for a more in depth answer to his question and isn't too happy with what he's given on the first two attempts. His post reads that he is begrudgingly accepting that he's getting nothing more, and then Vaimes elaborates. I feel that going out of the way to appease shadow after twice before not bothering is scummy. It's like Vaimes suddenly realised that there might be some sort of consequence for this exchange. This was followed up by an attempt to poke back which was limp at best. I'll point out again, that I have flipped my opinion on the opening since my initial post about it.
I'm partially going to trust Bear's read for now. I don't usually do this, but there are other people I'm town-reading that seem to be rading Vaimes town too.
osieorb:
Jumping back on to the shadow wagon for flimsy reasoning made me think that osie's thought proess was something along the lines of "Yey, now I have a reason to vote for the wagon leader." which is not good. The coming off looks like an attempt to be townie rather than genuine.
Switching the gimmick didn't seem natural to me. Why do it? If you're not happy with the first gimmick then drop it and play. It's not helpful to bounce around attempting to be funny.
There's a growing pattern of addressing the flimsiest things in the thread and responding to them rather than actually engaging in the content.
Then along comes some actual content leaving me unsure on exactly what to think about her. It's frustrating. The later the posts, the more I like her though. The teardown of Jenna provides a lot of substantial evidence that I'm waiting to see a response to. If I was to ignore the first half of the game she's one of my top towns.
Voxxicus:
There are no specific moments, but the in the first 70 posts or so I feel really comfortable with Voxx. He just feels safe to me.
I do like him questioning the shadow wagon, and the thought process in his post about Vaimes seems pure. It's not my interpretation, but I have no history to go off and these two clearly do.
Jenna Tolaria:
I like that she poked at my opening. It was devoid of substance and just a bit of RP fun. It's also done in a very townie way maybe, there's no real pressure there, but she wants to make sure that it's out there to be seen?
The random capitalisation really puts me off. I can't tell how much that's affecting my read. I'm not sure her logic and pushes are all that consistent though. There's been a fair bit of evasive behaviour too. Some of which osie pointed out.
DoTArchon:
DoT is the opposite situation to Voxx for me. The posts I read make me uncomfortable, and he's someone I want to stay away from.
The switching to osie after others have questioned her behaviour is scummy too. Why not bring that up earlier? This looks like some who's jumping on to town to be part of something wholesome.
Tubba Fett:
I don't like the asking about the expected number of mafia. It feels like a question a mafia would ask in an attempt at getting some town credit.
Going on from that, Tubba's posts are pretty much a guide to how not to post as mafia. This is especially clear in the poor response to RT and osie throwing some pressure on him.
King Torg:
I really don't like people claiming mafia.
That's all I have. What have you actually done?
A Bear:
The first content post is really good. It's a thought process that is agreeing with a lot of what I have. She's pointing out the right things in the right way and then adding on some local knowledge. Speaking of which, here's some from me. Bear wants me to play this game and is trying to constructively poke me and get me to interact more. As a wolf she has no real advantage in doing so (apart from trying to get me onside, but who cares about me?).
Killjoy:
Flattery will get you everywhere. Seriously though, it was a good entrance showing the thought process as he reads though the thread.
To be perfectly honest I'm so emotional on this one because I lost Empoof and that's all I can think about when I see Killjoy. "You're not Empoof"
To summarise;
Townsfolk; Colin, Reaverb Tau, A Bear
Living in the outskirts; Vaimes, osieorb, Voxxicus, Killjoy
Just visiting; shadowlancerx, King Torg
Banished; Jenna Tolaria, DoTArchon, Tubba Fett
Tubba Fett:
I don't like the asking about the expected number of mafia. It feels like a question a mafia would ask in an attempt at getting some town credit.
Going on from that, Tubba's posts are pretty much a guide to how not to post as mafia.
@Shadow: While the wagon on you sucked (and I almost entirely voted you because of apparent hubris, probably like some others), what are your thoughts on NEVER MIND, I just read post 117.
In regards to the bolded, who?
Quote from Osie »
@Shadow: Do you not believe in a world where exactly one of Vaimes or Voxx is scum?
I believe Voxx can be scum separate from Vaimes, but because of how things have gone down, I think Vaimes is town if Voxx is. I was just noting that they aren't unaligned.
Quote from Osie »
@Shadow: Why Tubba town? Seriously.
He doesn't look as much like scum to me. His line asking about the number of scum is ever so slightly >rand town in my opinion.
Quote from Osie »
@Shadow: Funny. I've scumread you for at least a bit of the game in every game that we've been in too. And that's the majority of games I've been in on the forum (I may have signed up for at least one of them seeing you were there, though… ). This game I basically just started actively reading people in the past couple days and you're looking pretty good (Oh, my...), not that that precludes a scumread on you in the future. I'm leaning a DotA-Voxx team right now, with the addition of one of Colin or Tubba. Thoughts?
First, aww, I enjoy playing with you too
Second, you know you're allowed to change your mind in general on reads, why would you fence sit so hard in your read on me? Like obviously a day one town read doesn't preclude a scum read later. -_-
Third, I don't even know if I think Voxx is scum, I really want him to post so that I can get a better gauge. Also Dota's recent explanation posts seem fairly good to me. I actually agree with your recent suspicion of Jenna, though I'm also leery of you (par for the course I suppose).
@KJ: I have played with Voxx once, he was scum. I know it's his thing to not interact with scum reads, but I am skeptical that this applies this early to a read with so little actually input by him.
shadow asked me (and it feels like a looong time ago) why a bear is fishy, which...really? Because they didn't have a vote on someone they thought was most likely scum. I know I said this, though maybe it was in two separate posts.
Kiiinda think Reaverb is town, but this read revolves around how he's handled me so I'm super biased, but from his POV I'm not sure I'm the most useful player to pocket, so ?? Genuine progression perhaps.
Jenna feels like mislynch bait. Can't really substantiate that read, but I know it when I feel it. People are free to continue poking at her, though.
Looking back, you referred to Bear as Ruru(?) and I didn't connect that.
Regarding Jenna, what do you make of her posting thus far? Like what makes her mislynch bait over dodgy scum?
---- Unvote
What do "Ptap" and "/barn" mean? Seem to be mtgs-mafia specific terms.
PTAP is used interchangeably with V/LA.
/barn is a way of expressing agreement.
To add onto this, ptap is an abbreviation for "Post to Avoid Prod"
And barn is short for Barnacle; Agreeing with a point without having anything of substance to add to it.
Really not in a good headspace right now for mafia, or much of anything, but gonna try to distract myself from life by finding a wolf (or pretending to do so if I'm a wolf, because village reading me for this post isn't something I want people to do).
Alright, so going to explain what I was doing in the early game. You'll notice I didn't give a reason for voting Shadow, but just went "Wagons!" as I hopped aboard.
This was pretty obviously an attempt to make things happen and to generate reactions and responses, and try to evaluate who was actually trying to think about the game and figure out the alignments of people involved. Part of the inspiration was the 2016 invitational, where Eco got run up in RVS, and his buddies acted in a way that... made them look like his buddies in a kind of scum panic. Part of the inspiration was an off site game on dominion strategy, where I was a wolf, and a villager kept going "Wagons!" every time he voted, and it tilted me off the face of the earth that this kid was blatantly doing scummy things and getting away with it, and indeed, being actually town read.
Like, I wanted to see who would try to genuinely figure out my mindset, and try to think about why I was doing things, what perspective it had to come from, and if anyone would see the things I saw. I wanted to see who would try to evaluate Shadow's alignment, who would evaluate the alignment and reasons for people voting him. Wanted to see who would possibly push elsewhere to chainsaw defend, wanted to see how Shadow would respond, etc.
The game was (and is) moving at a glacial pace, and generating content via causing an event for people to respond to felt like a good use of time, especially if I didn't explain what I was doing, but instead just sat back and tried to figure out who was trying to figure out what I was doing vs. knew I was town and was confused.
I don't have a strong read on Shadow's alignment. I think he has a decent chance to be scum, but I don't...think I actually want to lynch him day one, because I think I got a decent grasp on him as a player during Mistborn, and he can be accurately read on d2-d3 when more things happen and he can display thought process more in depth as he processes wagons, flips, night actions, etc.
The biggest thing that dings him to me right now is it feels like he's saying and doing rather than thinking - the back and forth with Vaimes where he was 'interrogating' him, I have trouble believing he actually thought anything productive was going to come of that, it just felt like something to do to appear to be doing something. I have trouble believing Shadow, as a villager, votes me for the reasons he did - it didn't feel like he actually tried to think about the vote, and what I was doing, and where it came from, and that's kind of been the recurring thing for me with him in the early game so far, a lack of critical thinking. But I do acknowledge we don't play the game in an identical way and it's not necessarily a lock scum thing for him, so am not entirely sure I want to lynch him for it.
I don't think Dota or Osie are wolves with Shadow, probably. I'm not sure the 'I'm going to vote you because you've never been lynched as a wolf and therefore are scary' line they took comes from a partner. It's either a villager who genuinely thinks that way, or a wolf who is trying to formulate a 'reason' to pile onto a flimsy wagon opportunistically.
Doubt they are wolves with each other too, piggybacking off the same obvious reason.
I guess that means that there's probably at most 1 wolf in Shadow/Dota/Osie? Which... they're three of the scummiest players to me, so that logic kind of makes me go RIP.
My thing is I don't like talking to scum reads about my read on them, or their read on me - I'm happy to talk to them about their or my reads on other players, to further evaluate their mindset and give myself the opportunity to reassess if I'm wrong. I just don't think it's productive to get into an argument about why you are or are not scum, because.... you aren't going to admit to being scum, and it comes from the same perspective as either alignment, where you're trying to convince me that you are town, and it doesn't really 'click' with the way I generate reads on people. Just not a great use of time.
But you're correct that you weren't a strong enough scum read to avoid interacting with at that point, I just was letting thread breathe and seeing how people reacted and analysed the wagon.
Vote: Shadowlancerx1R
Creature - RVS Common 1: Target Dodgy player gains 1 vote. He said in the setup that he'd be dodgy if this fired too quickly.
2/1
Wow. I'm gonna give you mad props of you keep this up. This is the most creative self inflicted PR I've ever seen.
Why was your assumption here that it's a self-inflicted PR? This was the first post he made in the game I think, so where did this comment come from, for you? Why was your assumption that it was a posting restriction rather than just something he did for RVS?
I'm gonna go ahead and confirm my vote on Voxx, I'm not seeing a reason for his vote on me except to steal a page one mislynch on someone who is especially difficult to lynch regardless of alignment.
Let's talk about this, too. Because I really struggle to believe you think I was 'trying to steal a page one mislynch', given that's...never going to happen on MTGS, when you still needed 2-3 more votes, and it's a 2 week phase. I'd never /let/ that happen, as either alignment, either because I'm a villager and lynching someone that early is an awful waste of day phase, or I'm a wolf, and lynching someone that early is an awful waste of day phase.
Like. This post is one of the reasons I think you could be scum, because there was no real attempt to figure out my alignment. You've seen me wolf, and I'm pretty sure you've read villager games of mine, or at least have an idea about my general competence level. Instead of trying to figure out /why/ you just confirm vote with a reason that doesn't really track.
Voxx, I'd expect you'd be fine with pressure on you because it would mean you are more likely to survive.
I also wish people would talk about the wagon. we had like a flurry of activity and then nothing.
This isn't super related, but my survival isn't...something I care about that much. I've long since accepted that it's going to be extremely rare for me to make it to d3 in a game as town if I'm at all engaged. I actually do tend to live longer on MTGS for some reason, because I dial back the activity and engagement and am not considered as much of a threat.
But like, from a theory perspective, I don't like votes on me because it denies a chance for pressure on people who can actually be wolves, and it denies the chance to read the people voting me based on their progressions and targets, because I'm never going to be lynched on d1, and it's an easy/safe place to park a vote. I'm /going/ to either be dead or blindingly obvious town by d3, so the game treating me as an innocent child narrows down the scope of the game and makes it harder for wolves to find room to maneuver.
---
And because I don't feel like trying to snip the relevant bits out of your big post, I'll just talk about some things in general:
1) I'm never w/w with Vaimes, because I'd set his lazy ass on fire for being so lackadaisical this game and not exhibiting conventional scum hunting and activity.
2) I have very little respect for scum Vaimes' ability to not get lynched, and would just bury him 6 levels into the ground instead of trying to defend him. See: Mindreaver in Mistborn.
3) You probably are correct that I'd handle Vaimes like this if I was a wolf and he was a villager though. I kind of think I could maybe get a mislynch on him with this playerlist at some point though? There's less people that know him super well, and his attitude doesn't exactly radiate town in a vacuum.
4) In the event you are town and I die N1, don't give Vaimes a free pass forever. I do think he's likely town, but it's not a 100% lock, just a 'I don't really think he'd be playing so lazily and carefree if he randed wolf against me'.
I think we've only played three full games together, but he's seen me play other games, and I have a bit of a reputation on some other sites.
The three games I know we've played together:
1. 2016 invitational. I accurately read him D1, defended him from pressure, town lynched 3 wolves in 3 days.
2. ZDS' Normal. I accurately read him D1, town lynched 4 wolves in 4 days (technically they conceded on d3).
3. WH14. I accurately read him D1, town lynched/killed/caught 4 wolves in 2 days (they conceded n2).
My town read on him is not as strong this game as it was in those games because he's not...really doing the usual villager Vaimes things. So it's almost entirely based on the fact that he's not curled up in a ball terrified of me, voted me, and is generally acting in a carefree/lackadaisical manner that he /knows/ would get him caught if he was a wolf.
That's going to be the extent of me talking about my read on Vaimes until D2 probably.
Town read on Colin is primarily based on #158 - especially for someone who primarily plays video mafia, there's depth and nuance to some of the reads that feels like an organic thought process of someone trying to actually Figure Things Out.
I'd like /more/ content from him, and the Reaverb progression in particular I'm kind of having trouble tracking from him - but it's a super transparent post, and I like the originality and where some of the reads have to be based upon headspace wise. The Ruru one, the Vaimes one, the Jenna one. If he's a wolf, it's an impressive bit of fake transparency.
Not sure if that link will work, it's Osie's ISO in this game.
Ctrl + F for vox, and read from the bottom up. I'd like you to talk about your progression on me, and how you like... managed to change it despite me being V/LA and not posting. What posts made you vote/scum read me in the first place and why? What posts made you question that scum read and why?
Convince me that the progression is natural and genuine, rather than just realizing that lynch isn't going to happen and you might have jumped the gun.
I'm not used to Voxx being like this and I feel like I'm already in Wine Hell. People being like this about him is also weird for me, tbh. It's like... when you look in a double mirror and see yourself not-mirrored and are like "who the **** am i looking at??? this is weird????"
Talk to me about this a little bit.
Like, you're confused, you feel like you're in wine hell so you... do what about it? Basically talk your way through your thought process there and why you haven't actually done anything to try and figure out my alignment.
King Torg is someone I wouldn't trust with a secret.
First of all, I'm offended! I'm great at keeping secrets! (which is why none of you know I'm scum)
Hum.
I know you played in that train wreck of a basic, but what's your mafia experience otherwise? I guess I could ISO you in that game to see if it's mentioned.
My initial inclination is that a first time scum player is less likely to make that joke, but my gut feelings after reading your ISO in the other game is that may not quite apply to you.
People joking that they are scum comes from scum well above rand - but it's usually the case with highly experienced and confident scum who are kind of toying with town and amusing themselves by blatantly claiming. Azrael is someone who has done this multiple times.
Basically I kind of think this is a dead end and it's not alignment indicative for Torg, as he seems the jokey sort in general.
This is a very loose breakdown, just kind of mentally eyeballing where I'm at with people. There's not really any order within the tiers.
I think there's probably at most one wolf in the bottom three names, which indicates I need to spend some more time on the two tiers above that examining.
Convince me that the progression is natural and genuine, rather than just realizing that lynch isn't going to happen and you might have jumped the gun.
I don't think Osie's progression on you is unnatural at all, would be easier if you explained exactly why you think it might be fake (beyond the possible scum motivation for having that progression).
Ctrl + F for vox, and read from the bottom up. I'd like you to talk about your progression on me, and how you like... managed to change it despite me being V/LA and not posting. What posts made you vote/scum read me in the first place and why? What posts made you question that scum read and why?
At the time of post 75:
I liked post 24, but was feeling paranoid enough to think that it might be a setup for a mislynch.
I didn't like your declaration of "Wagons!" for the Shadow vote, which I eventually figured was probably an overreaction on my part, and the story behind it helps.
I very much didn't like the tone in post 65. Like, it seems particularly off coming from someone who at the time didn't declare reasoning at all for voting Shadow.
The other posts felt no better than NAI, with a few available WIFOM rabbit holes.
Then you went V/LA for a while. When I was going over the thread again later, I felt that I had not given you enough credit, especially when looking at your posts 91 and 92, and when giving another look to post 24. I still don't like post 65, but by itself, it's not enough to support a scumread.
Convince me that the progression is natural and genuine, rather than just realizing that lynch isn't going to happen and you might have jumped the gun.
I don't think Osie's progression on you is unnatural at all, would be easier if you explained exactly why you think it might be fake (beyond the possible scum motivation for having that progression).
"Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to seduce me? Aren't you?"
If @everybody could elaborate on their TubbaFett reads that'd be great.
Nobody actually did this except Colin who gave a read on everybody.
Do you want more from me than what I provided in post 126 about post 118 and earlier? I'm not seeing much better beyond "I'm confused" and defensiveness, with the exception of post 153, which gives me a little bit of hope... not enough to not be interested in seeing a lynch in Jenna/Tubba, though.
@Killjoy I played the newb mafia game on this site, and it kinda sucked, so I'm giving it another shot in this game. That's it.
I don't really know what scum!DoTA would be trying with that post, but I know that it's not a town move at all. There's no way an experienced player like DoTA would just hop on an L-3 wagon with the justification that "shadow is scary." My best guess is that he was trying to generate negative shadow vibes for a future myslynch or something like that.
Neat.
What do you think of Osie? And... lets say Voxx? What about him?
We have a vote for Shadow, which is either RVS or wagon jumping, then a post shading Vaimes, followed by a vote on Vaimes in the next post after pressured. We have "I don't trust anybody," followed by a pretty good post about DoTA. The second half of the next post and the entirety of the following post are seemingly evasive for no clear reason. Then we have a post which looks clever, and is, but is also just for the sake of throwing dirt at DoTA. This is followed by an easy poke at a bad post by Tubba and a Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious post ("void of input"). Then we have more dodging the question (I don't care about the Kanaya bit) and a seemingly fluff post about a legislacerator. We then have two posts from someone who is convinced on who the lynch should be, the latter of which includes more dodging of questions and a silly comment about the game state and death spirals That's all that Jenna's posted for now.
I'm not sure why there's so much dodging of questions by Jenna, but it's really bugging me.
Ok. So you don't think she's town at all? All these points are very negative.
I feel like there's at least one wolf in Archon/Osieorb - Archon voted Shadow in RVS and then decided it was a real vote in #52. While it was a RVS vote at the time it was made, he felt the need to back it up with Actual Something. Now he's dismissed it as Not Actually Something That Ever Really Existed In The First Place (#102) while moving his vote to someone who agreed with him about it? Like, he's calling Osie shady for doing the same thing that he did? Does the concept of self-awareness exist here? (I would like #52 clarified if it wasn't... like,,, real?????) + Osie sheeping Archon's reasons for the vote with the near-immediate backdown after Voxx calls it out (and then? voting for voxx?) isn't that great, either. I don't think it's impossible for them to be together? but I don't think that one witch would immediately follow the other like that, especially since they're supposed to be long-time players or something... Mostly I just want them to fight each other and see what happens, tbh.
Where in #52 did I confirm that my vote was serious? I mentioned that his comment came across as cocky but I was just looking to engage with him about it. I did not expect a wagon to form and reach L-2, and Osieorb's comment that I had a good point (which I didn't) comes across to me as scum piggybacking onto the wagon so he can point out later that it was my reasoning that caused a mislynch.
What initially got my attention is that Shadow says he has never been lynched regardless of alignment except for that one time, and then later says that the game where he was lynched he was scum. So why not say I've never been lynched as town instead? It's not a good enough reason to push for a lynch but the wording does seem a bit odd to me.
Hm. Explain why this is more than semantics, please. Why does this come from scum vs. town?
It is just semantics, I never once said Shadow was scum. If my RVS vote had been on any other player and I'd asked Shadow the same thing I doubt I'd be catching as much flak for this, but a number of people seem to believe that I was trying to justify my voting for Shadow. It was coincidence that my RVS vote happened to be on the same person that posted something that looked strange to me.
I might not have been clear. I was referring to 52->shadow being about semantics. You say he's cocky. Why does that mean anything?
Also, in rereading the above quote, and your ISO, I have another question for you: Can you explain the mindset about #57? What were you thinking when you posted it, what you were looking for in an answer, etc.
@Killjoy I've played a couple dozen games I think? I've never actually counted.
Why do you think that one post is enough to read Vox? Is it some sort of meta read?
What was your criteria for picking the particular posts you did to respond to on your catch-up?
Re: Voxx: It's... kind of a meta read, I guess? I mean it's not so much something I have personally observed and found for myself through experience, but more through repuation. What I know about Voxx is: he HATES being mafia, because there's no puzzle to solve. Nothing he likes to do can happen when he's mafia. It's just so boring.
It was actually two posts that put me at that conclusion. The initial vote on Shadow (Wagons!) was one, combined with the quoted post led me to see a mindset where A)he is having fun and B)is trying to solve the puzzle only available as town.
Re: criteria: My process is basically read the thread, then when I have a question or relevent thought I quote and post. Some long posts I skim becuase those just become quotewalls (which I don't usually wanna deal with right then) so I don't usually do anything with them.
The idea of you participating in RVS at all is weird if you really love waiting to vote as much as you claim.
I think DotA is the most likely scum on the wagon right now.
Hm. Explain your thinking here.
@Osie: In 155, are you seriously scumreading Jenna for conciously avoiding answering questions? Do me a favor and show me better reasons than that.
Although, @Jenna I still want an answer to that question.
shadow asked me (and it feels like a looong time ago) why a bear is fishy, which...really? Because they didn't have a vote on someone they thought was most likely scum. I know I said this, though maybe it was in two separate posts.
To be fair here, I thought the answer to that questions is because bears eat fish.
Vaimes;
Now this is an opening that I don't like. The interaction with Voxx comes across as someone trying too hard to blend in. The short posts of no actual value in quick succession is creating the illusion of content. The interaction with shadow is one that doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth either, shadow's looking for a more in depth answer to his question and isn't too happy with what he's given on the first two attempts. His post reads that he is begrudgingly accepting that he's getting nothing more, and then Vaimes elaborates. I feel that going out of the way to appease shadow after twice before not bothering is scummy. It's like Vaimes suddenly realised that there might be some sort of consequence for this exchange. This was followed up by an attempt to poke back which was limp at best. I'll point out again, that I have flipped my opinion on the opening since my initial post about it.
I'm partially going to trust Bear's read for now. I don't usually do this, but there are other people I'm town-reading that seem to be rading Vaimes town too.
Ignoring Bear/other townread's townread of Vaimes, is he scum? Everything before the last sentence seems like you're suspicious of him then you default to town because other people. Explain please.
Tubba Fett:
I don't like the asking about the expected number of mafia. It feels like a question a mafia would ask in an attempt at getting some town credit.
Going on from that, Tubba's posts are pretty much a guide to how not to post as mafia. This is especially clear in the poor response to RT and osie throwing some pressure on him.
This seems... flimsy. Asking how many mafia isn't very substancial. Expand on which of Tubbas posts are "a guide how not to play as mafia"?
To summarise;
Townsfolk; Colin, Reaverb Tau, A Bear
Living in the outskirts; Vaimes, osieorb, Voxxicus, Killjoy
Just visiting; shadowlancerx, King Torg
Banished; Jenna Tolaria, DoTArchon, Tubba Fett
I'm also slightly confused here. Like, Reaverb, you say you still have issues with his opening, and other than that he's town... but he's in your Town section. Shadow reads like you're fully townreading him, but he's in your "Just visiting" seciton (which I interpret as "barely leaning town"). Vaimes I've addressed, but what doesn't make sense is he's higher on the list than people like shadow (who it looks like you're townreading hard). Osie is also higher than shadow, after all you've said about him.
Only thing that gives me some hesitation with KJ is how easily he is town reading me after I was scum the last game and mislynched him.
You were in a game with me recently as scum?
Wait. You were that gimmick. I remember now.I'll need to look that game over to see if I jumped too soon on that. You are a good player, and I'm putting a lot of stock in "Voxx wouldn't have fun as scum, etc.".
@Bear: I'm remembering something. Didn't we play together in a basic many years ago? You were scum, and talked in disgustingly sweet roleplay?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I've figured out that the secret to phoneposting on this forum is to write in Google Docs and then copy it into the thread, btw. Docs actually has, like, a readable font, even tho you can't do formatting or anything. No quotes, but whatever.
Honestly surprised more people think that Archon is scum over Osie? I’m pretty sure that not a single person in this thread has given anything besides a scumread on Archon, actually. That feels really weird? Usually, people who get scumread by literally everyone aren't actually mafia. It's not universal, though. The only people Archon has actually expressed opinions on are Osie and Shadow, and those were both negative. Plus, besides Osie's interactions with Shadow, he feels better to me than Archon does. I kinda feel like I'm falling for some sort of trap, not sure whether or not the Osie townfeels are because I'm just hoping the people who have time to post are all town at this point. On the other other hand, for all the suspicion, Archon hasnt actually gotten that many votes... the only people who actually voted him so far are Jenna, Reaverb, and Torg. I'm going to have to reread the thread on my lappy to figure out this one, but it's 4 AM and I have a test tomorrow so, like, not now.
Hm.
It seems like most of the thread has forgotten that Torg exists, actually - only, like, three people are actually talking to him or acknowledging his existence.
@Reaverb Tau, Torg isn't in your reads wall even though you literally talked to him the post before... how do you feel about him? Also, Voxx doesn’t like it when people only use one x.
@Killjoy - I started playing mafia 12 years ago, but two years ago I basically stopped to focus on irl/school. I un-retired this summer, but this school year is trying its best to force me to tap out again. Rip me. Also... we played in Gotham Underground together! The game that still makes Voxx sad half a decade later because he snuck his way in to a game with friends under a name people from MSPAFia didnt know him as and got shot N1 by Acio and Laset anyway! I was also town and definitely not RPing.
@Osieorb18 - At the time you made 129, Empoof/Killjoy only had one post, so I’m surprised you were even light scum on him, tbh. I also don’t understand why you think Colin’s post shifts Empoof/Killjoy more towards town? Can you explain this further? My thoughts on Jenna are: she's weird but I'm not sure if that's because she's mafia or because she's new. I'm content with letting her explore the game for now, basically. I'm wondering about how you went from "Wow, I hope she's town" to "let me write a long ass post and then vote her", though. Can you explain what changed for you? Most of those Jenna posts are from before you made your initial read...
@Voxxicus - I decided that reading you off of RVS posts wasn't very helpful, and decided to wait for you to come back and give Actual Real Content. I'm trying to fend off the paranoia descent into madness, but it's really hard with no info. I thought these phases would give me more time to think and actually try and balance the game with irl, but instead it's just me dying inside because I have too much time to think and nowhere to vent the cr*zy. Like your posts are good and Voxx-y but then I remember 166 exists and I know you know better than to post ***** like that and im dying squirtle
Vote: Shadowlancerx1R
Creature - RVS Common 1: Target Dodgy player gains 1 vote. He said in the setup that he'd be dodgy if this fired too quickly.
2/1
Wow. I'm gonna give you mad props of you keep this up. This is the most creative self inflicted PR I've ever seen.
Why was your assumption here that it's a self-inflicted PR? This was the first post he made in the game I think, so where did this comment come from, for you? Why was your assumption that it was a posting restriction rather than just something he did for RVS?
He tried a PR in off the grid 3, and has talked/theorized about PRs elsewhere.
I'm gonna go ahead and confirm my vote on Voxx, I'm not seeing a reason for his vote on me except to steal a page one mislynch on someone who is especially difficult to lynch regardless of alignment.
Let's talk about this, too. Because I really struggle to believe you think I was 'trying to steal a page one mislynch', given that's...never going to happen on MTGS, when you still needed 2-3 more votes, and it's a 2 week phase. I'd never /let/ that happen, as either alignment, either because I'm a villager and lynching someone that early is an awful waste of day phase, or I'm a wolf, and lynching someone that early is an awful waste of day phase.
Like. This post is one of the reasons I think you could be scum, because there was no real attempt to figure out my alignment. You've seen me wolf, and I'm pretty sure you've read villager games of mine, or at least have an idea about my general competence level. Instead of trying to figure out /why/ you just confirm vote with a reason that doesn't really track.
Page 1/2 mislynches have happened here though, and it seemed perfectly reasonable that you could have dropped a vote, been followed by a few others and then I'm accidentally hammered. Of course you'd come into the next day outraged regardless of your alignment, but that doesn't negate that it can and has happened in the past. Seeing your reasons for your vote definitely help, but your vote didn't look like RVS, and didn't have any explanation at the time, and therefor caused me to be suspicious.
Voxx, I'd expect you'd be fine with pressure on you because it would mean you are more likely to survive.
I also wish people would talk about the wagon. we had like a flurry of activity and then nothing.
This isn't super related, but my survival isn't...something I care about that much. I've long since accepted that it's going to be extremely rare for me to make it to d3 in a game as town if I'm at all engaged. I actually do tend to live longer on MTGS for some reason, because I dial back the activity and engagement and am not considered as much of a threat.
But like, from a theory perspective, I don't like votes on me because it denies a chance for pressure on people who can actually be wolves, and it denies the chance to read the people voting me based on their progressions and targets, because I'm never going to be lynched on d1, and it's an easy/safe place to park a vote. I'm /going/ to either be dead or blindingly obvious town by d3, so the game treating me as an innocent child narrows down the scope of the game and makes it harder for wolves to find room to maneuver.
I quite like this answer, thank you.
Quote from Voxx »
And because I don't feel like trying to snip the relevant bits out of your big post, I'll just talk about some things in general:
1) I'm never w/w with Vaimes, because I'd set his lazy ass on fire for being so lackadaisical this game and not exhibiting conventional scum hunting and activity.
2) I have very little respect for scum Vaimes' ability to not get lynched, and would just bury him 6 levels into the ground instead of trying to defend him. See: Mindreaver in Mistborn.
3) You probably are correct that I'd handle Vaimes like this if I was a wolf and he was a villager though. I kind of think I could maybe get a mislynch on him with this playerlist at some point though? There's less people that know him super well, and his attitude doesn't exactly radiate town in a vacuum.
4) In the event you are town and I die N1, don't give Vaimes a free pass forever. I do think he's likely town, but it's not a 100% lock, just a 'I don't really think he'd be playing so lazily and carefree if he randed wolf against me'.
Cool, this is helpful, Voxx/Vaimes much less likely as a team. And in general both are probably town anyway.
------
Now I need to make a T/S list and vote. Probably will get that out sometime today.
@Shadow: While the wagon on you sucked (and I almost entirely voted you because of apparent hubris, probably like some others), what are your thoughts on NEVER MIND, I just read post 117.
In regards to the bolded, who?
That was DoTA.
Second, you know you're allowed to change your mind in general on reads, why would you fence sit so hard in your read on me? Like obviously a day one town read doesn't preclude a scum read later.
Ehh. I don't trust any town reads of you ever. Didn't want to rule it out myself.
@Osieorb18 - At the time you made 129, Empoof/Killjoy only had one post, so I’m surprised you were even light scum on him, tbh. I also don’t understand why you think Colin’s post shifts Empoof/Killjoy more towards town? Can you explain this further? My thoughts on Jenna are: she's weird but I'm not sure if that's because she's mafia or because she's new. I'm content with letting her explore the game for now, basically. I'm wondering about how you went from "Wow, I hope she's town" to "let me write a long ass post and then vote her", though. Can you explain what changed for you? Most of those Jenna posts are from before you made your initial read...
Empoof's lack of posting given the lack of content in his first poat put him at just below null for me. My notation was "~ ... -", meaning null, with not much to go on, and a very slight lean towards scum; not really a read. Killjoy has posted pretty well, though.
As for Jenna, the seed of doubt due to evasiveness grew over time, especially after the "I'm not cagey" response. If Jenna gives some good clear answers and actively tries to solve, I will reconsider my read. Or if anyone can make a convincing argument for Jenna being town... But I'm currently more bothered by her than by Tubba's myriad of scumtells. So make of that what you will.
I'm gonna do my best to make an okay post, but I'm super sick so bear with me here.
@DoTA Sorry, for some reason I looked at you and was like: "yes, he is a professional mafia player." I honestly don't know why. You're right that you didn't jump on the shadow wagon per say, but your original vote was definitely RVS and you only confirmed your vote in post 52, once the wagon was L-3. Sorry if that wasn't clear the first time I said it.
I tried to read page 4 like 6 times and got about nothing out of it, so I'm just gonna try to quickly respond to anything that is directed at me.
King Torg is someone I wouldn't trust with a secret.
First of all, I'm offended! I'm great at keeping secrets! (which is why none of you know I'm scum)
Hum.
I know you played in that train wreck of a basic, but what's your mafia experience otherwise? I guess I could ISO you in that game to see if it's mentioned.
That's all I've played in so far. What does ISO mean?
@Whoever asked me for my read on Osi and Voxx Osi's 1st few posts seemed pretty scummy to me, but appears to be getting steadily townier. For lack of stronger reads as of right now, I'd say he's scum. As for Voxx, I've kind of been not paying attention to him at all. I'm going to read through him post by post to get some info and make a read list when I feel a bit better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"When I'm sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story"
-Barney Stinson
Reaverb Tau;
I still have issues with the opening, but I've been over that in a previous post so I'm not going to push this point further at this stage.
The rest of the content has a town tone to it, and there's a few good points in his push on Tubba
Tubba Fett:
I don't like the asking about the expected number of mafia. It feels like a question a mafia would ask in an attempt at getting some town credit.
Going on from that, Tubba's posts are pretty much a guide to how not to post as mafia.
Or if anyone can make a convincing argument for Jenna being town... But I'm currently more bothered by her than by Tubba's myriad of scumtells. So make of that what you will.
1: Tau's push on me is incredibly flimsy, basically taking issue with my RVS vote and the timing of my Osie vote. Osie's behaviour on the Shadow wagon has been noted as scummy by more than just me, so I don't understand why the timing matters or is alignment indicative, unless it's more about protecting his buddy than finding actual scum. Look at #180, #183, and #184 just for starters.
2: Not liking the question is one thing, but turning it into a scum read with zero interaction with me is something else. That point combined with your statement that you don't think I'm posting like mafia is somewhat troubling. Essentially you're giving me credit for hiding my alignment, based on your assumption of my alignment from a fairly innocuous question?
3: This is a counterpoint to Colin's claim. How am I so blatantly scummy to Osie, but deceptively scummy to Colin? Actually, I don't think Osie has said why I'm scummy at all? I briefly skimmed her ISO, and short of calling me scum with the weakest of reasons in #129 and mentioning my actions as NAI in #190, Osie hasn't really made much of a case for having me as one of her top scum reads.
Reaverb Tau;
I still have issues with the opening, but I've been over that in a previous post so I'm not going to push this point further at this stage.
The rest of the content has a town tone to it, and there's a few good points in his push on Tubba
Tubba Fett:
I don't like the asking about the expected number of mafia. It feels like a question a mafia would ask in an attempt at getting some town credit.
Going on from that, Tubba's posts are pretty much a guide to how not to post as mafia.
Or if anyone can make a convincing argument for Jenna being town... But I'm currently more bothered by her than by Tubba's myriad of scumtells. So make of that what you will.
1: Tau's push on me is incredibly flimsy, basically taking issue with my RVS vote and the timing of my Osie vote. Osie's behaviour on the Shadow wagon has been noted as scummy by more than just me, so I don't understand why the timing matters or is alignment indicative, unless it's more about protecting his buddy than finding actual scum. Look at #180, #183, and #184 just for starters.
2: Not liking the question is one thing, but turning it into a scum read with zero interaction with me is something else. That point combined with your statement that you don't think I'm posting like mafia is somewhat troubling. Essentially you're giving me credit for hiding my alignment, based on your assumption of my alignment from a fairly innocuous question?
3: This is a counterpoint to Colin's claim. How am I so blatantly scummy to Osie, but deceptively scummy to Colin? Actually, I don't think Osie has said why I'm scummy at all? I briefly skimmed her ISO, and short of calling me scum with the weakest of reasons in #129 and mentioning my actions as NAI in #190, Osie hasn't really made much of a case for having me as one of her top scum reads.
Dota
Vaimes
Voxx
Osie
Jenna
---
Who among you is scum?
Or make the case all 5 of those names are town, because I don't buy that.
Dislike this post from shadow. This is something he should have done himself, and the fact that he had to sit there and ask other people to do it for him while showing no signs of wanting to figure out his own wagon is bad.
I'm town, Voxx is whatever, I kinda think Jenna is town. Someone asked me why, maybe, and I'll try to get to that later. 90% of it is ~feels~. I get the impression that she's having fun, like it's pretty palpable, but she's not doing it in a deceptive way.
One scum in DoTA/osie, maybe? DoTA is a comparatively easy lynch, and I know virtually nothing about osie as a player. My read on him is kinda "he's making the effort to talk to /everyone/, which, in a vacuum, I find to be townier than not." Actually no, it's potentially overly compensating. Grah.
shadow could also just be scum, but I don't think anyone has really made an attempt to swing the wagon off of him, or doubtcast it. Ehhhh, keeping him in the undecided pile, but like. Undecided-potentially-good.
I think it's a given that there is at least one scum on the wagon. In a game this size what's the suspected number of scum? I
I give this dumbtell a 6/10, kinda buy it. For D1, at least.
(Do scumteams still instruct newbies to pretend to not know how many scum there are? We've all outgrown that, right?)
I think I want to lynch A Bear, because I dislike what they've posted. Their line "You can pretend I have a vote on all four of them if you want" makes me go ??? because I know they believe (or at least they come from a site where the vast majority of players believed) you should have your vote on who think is scum, period.
I'm releasing a bit of a sigh of relief as I'm fairly confident on Bear being town. She's definitely one of the towniest people around here right now.
I'm very interested in hearing more about this.
'Cause like, I was okay with this Colin post, almost enough to lightly townread him, but then he gets to A Bear and literally the first thing that popped into my brain was "lol powerwolfing."
If A Bear has done any one single towny thing at all this game, nevermind being the towniest, then I'm the queen of Mars.
I think DotA is the most likely scum on the wagon right now.
Wow, I sound like a newb with no confidence, no common sense, and no courage. That's depressing. I should introduce my boss to you; you two might get along...
Though he might not care for Carl the Ghost Panda.
I'm not trying to imply you or any other ghost based animal is bad at this game. If anything, I'm bad at this game. Your vote, followed by your unvote shortly after is the scummiest behaviour I've noticed. I've no interest in personally attacking anyone, or trying to put them down. Maybe we have a communication mixup here but I'm just trying to play a game. Stop with the cryptic ghost/Claritin/Niagra Falls/panda stuff and maybe we can figure this out.
@Tau
I don't know what to tell you. You're really hung up on my RVS vote, and I've gotta say, I don't get it. What percentage of random votes end up being serious? When it's a vote that matters, when I'm actually making a statement about how I feel the game is going, I prefer to have more information, to take more time. When it's a throwaway random vote, not so much.
I will admit my thoughts on TF were the one thing that wasn't explained, and as of this time, I can't recall the reason for that. Perhaps it hasn't occurred in my timeline yet.
I still think Tubba is scum, but letting this go on is unacceptable.
That was in a different, earlier post.
What are you talking about?
No it doesn't.
I've had two people rather than one on that list in my scumleans or scumreads for the majority of the game.
This is just sad. You can do better than that scummy twisted presentation of things.
~~~~~~~~~~
Here's a list of questions that you have evaded or not answered at all over the course of the game. I'm not holding out hope, but maybe you can provide solid answers to even one of them.
Question 1:
Your answer:
Question 2:
No Answer.
Question 3:
No Answer.
Question 4:
Your Answer:
Question 5:
Your Answer:
Question 6:
No Answer.
Question 7:
Your Answer(s):
Questions 8 & 9:
Your Answer:
Question 10:
No Answer.
Question 11:
Your Pseudo-Answer:
Question 12:
No Answer.
~~~~~~~~~~~
And then you over-answer, defensively, in cases like this:
Question:
Your answer:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Towards everyone thinking Jenna is town: Why?
@RT:
#76 (which I'm assuming is what you meant) is good, but could just as easily come from scum.
#103 is completely NAI to me.
Why are you not paying attention to Jenna's question dodging? It's extremely blatant and extremely scummy.
shadow asked me (and it feels like a looong time ago) why a bear is fishy, which...really? Because they didn't have a vote on someone they thought was most likely scum. I know I said this, though maybe it was in two separate posts.
Kiiinda think Reaverb is town, but this read revolves around how he's handled me so I'm super biased, but from his POV I'm not sure I'm the most useful player to pocket, so ?? Genuine progression perhaps.
Jenna feels like mislynch bait. Can't really substantiate that read, but I know it when I feel it. People are free to continue poking at her, though.
That's quite possible. I don't like assuming it, but it's something to consider.
What are your thoughts on Tubba?
I'm going to throw down where I'm at. If I get your gender wrong I'm sorry, I'm just typing instinctively and I have no idea who any of you are (apart from the Bear).
The most important thing I think town should know about me is that I am an emotional player and tend to trust my feelings and instinct more than actual content, but only if those feelings are especially strong. Also, this doesn't mean I don't take note of content because I do. I'll to give a loose example; if I have a strong feeling that someone is mafia, they'll have to produce more substantial content from a town perspective than someone who I have no strong feelings about in order for me to read them town. Of course the opposite applies too.
Reaverb Tau;
I still have issues with the opening, but I've been over that in a previous post so I'm not going to push this point further at this stage.
The rest of the content has a town tone to it, and there's a few good points in his push on Tubba (which holds a lot more weight if osie is town), and his round-up of the game so far is pretty good I think.
shadowlancerx;
Upon re-reading I've flipped on him. I read his opening town. It seems natural and uninhibited. It's looking like he's eager to get in to the game and get actual information flowing.
I don't really have anything to add to this. The rest of his posts I'm getting a slightly town tone read, but nothing is jumping out as either alignment.
Vaimes;
Now this is an opening that I don't like. The interaction with Voxx comes across as someone trying too hard to blend in. The short posts of no actual value in quick succession is creating the illusion of content. The interaction with shadow is one that doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth either, shadow's looking for a more in depth answer to his question and isn't too happy with what he's given on the first two attempts. His post reads that he is begrudgingly accepting that he's getting nothing more, and then Vaimes elaborates. I feel that going out of the way to appease shadow after twice before not bothering is scummy. It's like Vaimes suddenly realised that there might be some sort of consequence for this exchange. This was followed up by an attempt to poke back which was limp at best. I'll point out again, that I have flipped my opinion on the opening since my initial post about it.
I'm partially going to trust Bear's read for now. I don't usually do this, but there are other people I'm town-reading that seem to be rading Vaimes town too.
osieorb:
Jumping back on to the shadow wagon for flimsy reasoning made me think that osie's thought proess was something along the lines of "Yey, now I have a reason to vote for the wagon leader." which is not good. The coming off looks like an attempt to be townie rather than genuine.
Switching the gimmick didn't seem natural to me. Why do it? If you're not happy with the first gimmick then drop it and play. It's not helpful to bounce around attempting to be funny.
There's a growing pattern of addressing the flimsiest things in the thread and responding to them rather than actually engaging in the content.
Then along comes some actual content leaving me unsure on exactly what to think about her. It's frustrating. The later the posts, the more I like her though. The teardown of Jenna provides a lot of substantial evidence that I'm waiting to see a response to. If I was to ignore the first half of the game she's one of my top towns.
Voxxicus:
There are no specific moments, but the in the first 70 posts or so I feel really comfortable with Voxx. He just feels safe to me.
I do like him questioning the shadow wagon, and the thought process in his post about Vaimes seems pure. It's not my interpretation, but I have no history to go off and these two clearly do.
Jenna Tolaria:
I like that she poked at my opening. It was devoid of substance and just a bit of RP fun. It's also done in a very townie way maybe, there's no real pressure there, but she wants to make sure that it's out there to be seen?
The random capitalisation really puts me off. I can't tell how much that's affecting my read. I'm not sure her logic and pushes are all that consistent though. There's been a fair bit of evasive behaviour too. Some of which osie pointed out.
DoTArchon:
DoT is the opposite situation to Voxx for me. The posts I read make me uncomfortable, and he's someone I want to stay away from.
The switching to osie after others have questioned her behaviour is scummy too. Why not bring that up earlier? This looks like some who's jumping on to town to be part of something wholesome.
Tubba Fett:
I don't like the asking about the expected number of mafia. It feels like a question a mafia would ask in an attempt at getting some town credit.
Going on from that, Tubba's posts are pretty much a guide to how not to post as mafia. This is especially clear in the poor response to RT and osie throwing some pressure on him.
King Torg:
I really don't like people claiming mafia.
That's all I have. What have you actually done?
A Bear:
The first content post is really good. It's a thought process that is agreeing with a lot of what I have. She's pointing out the right things in the right way and then adding on some local knowledge. Speaking of which, here's some from me. Bear wants me to play this game and is trying to constructively poke me and get me to interact more. As a wolf she has no real advantage in doing so (apart from trying to get me onside, but who cares about me?).
Killjoy:
Flattery will get you everywhere. Seriously though, it was a good entrance showing the thought process as he reads though the thread.
To be perfectly honest I'm so emotional on this one because I lost Empoof and that's all I can think about when I see Killjoy. "You're not Empoof"
To summarise;
Townsfolk; Colin, Reaverb Tau, A Bear
Living in the outskirts; Vaimes, osieorb, Voxxicus, Killjoy
Just visiting; shadowlancerx, King Torg
Banished; Jenna Tolaria, DoTArchon, Tubba Fett
Maybe that's cuz I'm not mafia?
-----
Could you summarize the thought process you see in #142?
PTAP is used interchangeably with V/LA.
/barn is a way of expressing agreement.
Second, you know you're allowed to change your mind in general on reads, why would you fence sit so hard in your read on me? Like obviously a day one town read doesn't preclude a scum read later. -_-
Third, I don't even know if I think Voxx is scum, I really want him to post so that I can get a better gauge. Also Dota's recent explanation posts seem fairly good to me. I actually agree with your recent suspicion of Jenna, though I'm also leery of you (par for the course I suppose).
@KJ: I have played with Voxx once, he was scum. I know it's his thing to not interact with scum reads, but I am skeptical that this applies this early to a read with so little actually input by him. Looking back, you referred to Bear as Ruru(?) and I didn't connect that.
Regarding Jenna, what do you make of her posting thus far? Like what makes her mislynch bait over dodgy scum?
----
Unvote
And barn is short for Barnacle; Agreeing with a point without having anything of substance to add to it.
This was pretty obviously an attempt to make things happen and to generate reactions and responses, and try to evaluate who was actually trying to think about the game and figure out the alignments of people involved. Part of the inspiration was the 2016 invitational, where Eco got run up in RVS, and his buddies acted in a way that... made them look like his buddies in a kind of scum panic. Part of the inspiration was an off site game on dominion strategy, where I was a wolf, and a villager kept going "Wagons!" every time he voted, and it tilted me off the face of the earth that this kid was blatantly doing scummy things and getting away with it, and indeed, being actually town read.
Like, I wanted to see who would try to genuinely figure out my mindset, and try to think about why I was doing things, what perspective it had to come from, and if anyone would see the things I saw. I wanted to see who would try to evaluate Shadow's alignment, who would evaluate the alignment and reasons for people voting him. Wanted to see who would possibly push elsewhere to chainsaw defend, wanted to see how Shadow would respond, etc.
The game was (and is) moving at a glacial pace, and generating content via causing an event for people to respond to felt like a good use of time, especially if I didn't explain what I was doing, but instead just sat back and tried to figure out who was trying to figure out what I was doing vs. knew I was town and was confused.
I don't have a strong read on Shadow's alignment. I think he has a decent chance to be scum, but I don't...think I actually want to lynch him day one, because I think I got a decent grasp on him as a player during Mistborn, and he can be accurately read on d2-d3 when more things happen and he can display thought process more in depth as he processes wagons, flips, night actions, etc.
The biggest thing that dings him to me right now is it feels like he's saying and doing rather than thinking - the back and forth with Vaimes where he was 'interrogating' him, I have trouble believing he actually thought anything productive was going to come of that, it just felt like something to do to appear to be doing something. I have trouble believing Shadow, as a villager, votes me for the reasons he did - it didn't feel like he actually tried to think about the vote, and what I was doing, and where it came from, and that's kind of been the recurring thing for me with him in the early game so far, a lack of critical thinking. But I do acknowledge we don't play the game in an identical way and it's not necessarily a lock scum thing for him, so am not entirely sure I want to lynch him for it.
Hum.
Doubt they are wolves with each other too, piggybacking off the same obvious reason.
I guess that means that there's probably at most 1 wolf in Shadow/Dota/Osie? Which... they're three of the scummiest players to me, so that logic kind of makes me go RIP.
My thing is I don't like talking to scum reads about my read on them, or their read on me - I'm happy to talk to them about their or my reads on other players, to further evaluate their mindset and give myself the opportunity to reassess if I'm wrong. I just don't think it's productive to get into an argument about why you are or are not scum, because.... you aren't going to admit to being scum, and it comes from the same perspective as either alignment, where you're trying to convince me that you are town, and it doesn't really 'click' with the way I generate reads on people. Just not a great use of time.
But you're correct that you weren't a strong enough scum read to avoid interacting with at that point, I just was letting thread breathe and seeing how people reacted and analysed the wagon.
Talk to me about a few things:
Why was your assumption here that it's a self-inflicted PR? This was the first post he made in the game I think, so where did this comment come from, for you? Why was your assumption that it was a posting restriction rather than just something he did for RVS?
---
Let's talk about this, too. Because I really struggle to believe you think I was 'trying to steal a page one mislynch', given that's...never going to happen on MTGS, when you still needed 2-3 more votes, and it's a 2 week phase. I'd never /let/ that happen, as either alignment, either because I'm a villager and lynching someone that early is an awful waste of day phase, or I'm a wolf, and lynching someone that early is an awful waste of day phase.
Like. This post is one of the reasons I think you could be scum, because there was no real attempt to figure out my alignment. You've seen me wolf, and I'm pretty sure you've read villager games of mine, or at least have an idea about my general competence level. Instead of trying to figure out /why/ you just confirm vote with a reason that doesn't really track.
---
Hum. What questions? I don't think you actually directed anything at me at this point.
---
This isn't super related, but my survival isn't...something I care about that much. I've long since accepted that it's going to be extremely rare for me to make it to d3 in a game as town if I'm at all engaged. I actually do tend to live longer on MTGS for some reason, because I dial back the activity and engagement and am not considered as much of a threat.
But like, from a theory perspective, I don't like votes on me because it denies a chance for pressure on people who can actually be wolves, and it denies the chance to read the people voting me based on their progressions and targets, because I'm never going to be lynched on d1, and it's an easy/safe place to park a vote. I'm /going/ to either be dead or blindingly obvious town by d3, so the game treating me as an innocent child narrows down the scope of the game and makes it harder for wolves to find room to maneuver.
---
And because I don't feel like trying to snip the relevant bits out of your big post, I'll just talk about some things in general:
1) I'm never w/w with Vaimes, because I'd set his lazy ass on fire for being so lackadaisical this game and not exhibiting conventional scum hunting and activity.
2) I have very little respect for scum Vaimes' ability to not get lynched, and would just bury him 6 levels into the ground instead of trying to defend him. See: Mindreaver in Mistborn.
3) You probably are correct that I'd handle Vaimes like this if I was a wolf and he was a villager though. I kind of think I could maybe get a mislynch on him with this playerlist at some point though? There's less people that know him super well, and his attitude doesn't exactly radiate town in a vacuum.
4) In the event you are town and I die N1, don't give Vaimes a free pass forever. I do think he's likely town, but it's not a 100% lock, just a 'I don't really think he'd be playing so lazily and carefree if he randed wolf against me'.
I think we've only played three full games together, but he's seen me play other games, and I have a bit of a reputation on some other sites.
The three games I know we've played together:
1. 2016 invitational. I accurately read him D1, defended him from pressure, town lynched 3 wolves in 3 days.
2. ZDS' Normal. I accurately read him D1, town lynched 4 wolves in 4 days (technically they conceded on d3).
3. WH14. I accurately read him D1, town lynched/killed/caught 4 wolves in 2 days (they conceded n2).
My town read on him is not as strong this game as it was in those games because he's not...really doing the usual villager Vaimes things. So it's almost entirely based on the fact that he's not curled up in a ball terrified of me, voted me, and is generally acting in a carefree/lackadaisical manner that he /knows/ would get him caught if he was a wolf.
That's going to be the extent of me talking about my read on Vaimes until D2 probably.
Colin is probably town.
Killjoy is... probably? town.
Only thing that gives me some hesitation with KJ is how easily he is town reading me after I was scum the last game and mislynched him.
I'd like /more/ content from him, and the Reaverb progression in particular I'm kind of having trouble tracking from him - but it's a super transparent post, and I like the originality and where some of the reads have to be based upon headspace wise. The Ruru one, the Vaimes one, the Jenna one. If he's a wolf, it's an impressive bit of fake transparency.
Yes, I want you to do this yourself, too, Osie.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=783914&by-author=osieorb18
Not sure if that link will work, it's Osie's ISO in this game.
Ctrl + F for vox, and read from the bottom up. I'd like you to talk about your progression on me, and how you like... managed to change it despite me being V/LA and not posting. What posts made you vote/scum read me in the first place and why? What posts made you question that scum read and why?
Convince me that the progression is natural and genuine, rather than just realizing that lynch isn't going to happen and you might have jumped the gun.
Beruru, Ruru, hey Bear.
Talk to me about this a little bit.
Like, you're confused, you feel like you're in wine hell so you... do what about it? Basically talk your way through your thought process there and why you haven't actually done anything to try and figure out my alignment.
Hum.
I know you played in that train wreck of a basic, but what's your mafia experience otherwise? I guess I could ISO you in that game to see if it's mentioned.
My initial inclination is that a first time scum player is less likely to make that joke, but my gut feelings after reading your ISO in the other game is that may not quite apply to you.
People joking that they are scum comes from scum well above rand - but it's usually the case with highly experienced and confident scum who are kind of toying with town and amusing themselves by blatantly claiming. Azrael is someone who has done this multiple times.
Basically I kind of think this is a dead end and it's not alignment indicative for Torg, as he seems the jokey sort in general.
Vaimes
Colin
Killjoy r. Empoof
Jenna Tolaria
A Bear
Reaverb Tau
TubbaFett
King Torg
DoTArchon
Osieorb18
shadowlancerx
This is a very loose breakdown, just kind of mentally eyeballing where I'm at with people. There's not really any order within the tiers.
I think there's probably at most one wolf in the bottom three names, which indicates I need to spend some more time on the two tiers above that examining.
Project for later though, need a break.
At the time of post 75:
I liked post 24, but was feeling paranoid enough to think that it might be a setup for a mislynch.
I didn't like your declaration of "Wagons!" for the Shadow vote, which I eventually figured was probably an overreaction on my part, and the story behind it helps.
I very much didn't like the tone in post 65. Like, it seems particularly off coming from someone who at the time didn't declare reasoning at all for voting Shadow.
The other posts felt no better than NAI, with a few available WIFOM rabbit holes.
Then you went V/LA for a while. When I was going over the thread again later, I felt that I had not given you enough credit, especially when looking at your posts 91 and 92, and when giving another look to post 24. I still don't like post 65, but by itself, it's not enough to support a scumread.
Nobody actually did this except Colin who gave a read on everybody.
"Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to seduce me? Aren't you?"
Do you want more from me than what I provided in post 126 about post 118 and earlier? I'm not seeing much better beyond "I'm confused" and defensiveness, with the exception of post 153, which gives me a little bit of hope... not enough to not be interested in seeing a lynch in Jenna/Tubba, though.
What do you think of Osie? And... lets say Voxx? What about him?
Ok. So you don't think she's town at all? All these points are very negative.
Well we've played together, so I have at least a cursory understanding of your play and such. Also hi.
I've been working a lot. lol. I'm thinking... Thursday?
Obviously always voting Osie is the right thing to do all the time.
I might not have been clear. I was referring to 52->shadow being about semantics. You say he's cocky. Why does that mean anything?
Also, in rereading the above quote, and your ISO, I have another question for you: Can you explain the mindset about #57? What were you thinking when you posted it, what you were looking for in an answer, etc.
Re: Voxx: It's... kind of a meta read, I guess? I mean it's not so much something I have personally observed and found for myself through experience, but more through repuation. What I know about Voxx is: he HATES being mafia, because there's no puzzle to solve. Nothing he likes to do can happen when he's mafia. It's just so boring.
It was actually two posts that put me at that conclusion. The initial vote on Shadow (Wagons!) was one, combined with the quoted post led me to see a mindset where A)he is having fun and B)is trying to solve the puzzle only available as town.
Re: criteria: My process is basically read the thread, then when I have a question or relevent thought I quote and post. Some long posts I skim becuase those just become quotewalls (which I don't usually wanna deal with right then) so I don't usually do anything with them.
Hm. Explain your thinking here.
@Osie: In 155, are you seriously scumreading Jenna for conciously avoiding answering questions? Do me a favor and show me better reasons than that.
Although, @Jenna I still want an answer to that question.
To be fair here, I thought the answer to that questions is because bears eat fish.
Ignoring Bear/other townread's townread of Vaimes, is he scum? Everything before the last sentence seems like you're suspicious of him then you default to town because other people. Explain please.
This seems... flimsy. Asking how many mafia isn't very substancial. Expand on which of Tubbas posts are "a guide how not to play as mafia"?
I'm also slightly confused here. Like, Reaverb, you say you still have issues with his opening, and other than that he's town... but he's in your Town section. Shadow reads like you're fully townreading him, but he's in your "Just visiting" seciton (which I interpret as "barely leaning town"). Vaimes I've addressed, but what doesn't make sense is he's higher on the list than people like shadow (who it looks like you're townreading hard). Osie is also higher than shadow, after all you've said about him.
PTAP is basiaclly "I can't post right now but I'm still here don't replace please!". /barn is just "I agree". IDK where it comes from.
You were in a game with me recently as scum?
Wait. You were that gimmick. I remember now.I'll need to look that game over to see if I jumped too soon on that. You are a good player, and I'm putting a lot of stock in "Voxx wouldn't have fun as scum, etc.".
@Bear: I'm remembering something. Didn't we play together in a basic many years ago? You were scum, and talked in disgustingly sweet roleplay?
Unvote
I've figured out that the secret to phoneposting on this forum is to write in Google Docs and then copy it into the thread, btw. Docs actually has, like, a readable font, even tho you can't do formatting or anything. No quotes, but whatever.
Honestly surprised more people think that Archon is scum over Osie? I’m pretty sure that not a single person in this thread has given anything besides a scumread on Archon, actually. That feels really weird? Usually, people who get scumread by literally everyone aren't actually mafia. It's not universal, though. The only people Archon has actually expressed opinions on are Osie and Shadow, and those were both negative. Plus, besides Osie's interactions with Shadow, he feels better to me than Archon does. I kinda feel like I'm falling for some sort of trap, not sure whether or not the Osie townfeels are because I'm just hoping the people who have time to post are all town at this point. On the other other hand, for all the suspicion, Archon hasnt actually gotten that many votes... the only people who actually voted him so far are Jenna, Reaverb, and Torg. I'm going to have to reread the thread on my lappy to figure out this one, but it's 4 AM and I have a test tomorrow so, like, not now.
Hm.
It seems like most of the thread has forgotten that Torg exists, actually - only, like, three people are actually talking to him or acknowledging his existence.
@Reaverb Tau, Torg isn't in your reads wall even though you literally talked to him the post before... how do you feel about him? Also, Voxx doesn’t like it when people only use one x.
@Killjoy - I started playing mafia 12 years ago, but two years ago I basically stopped to focus on irl/school. I un-retired this summer, but this school year is trying its best to force me to tap out again. Rip me. Also... we played in Gotham Underground together! The game that still makes Voxx sad half a decade later because he snuck his way in to a game with friends under a name people from MSPAFia didnt know him as and got shot N1 by Acio and Laset anyway! I was also town and definitely not RPing.
@Osieorb18 - At the time you made 129, Empoof/Killjoy only had one post, so I’m surprised you were even light scum on him, tbh. I also don’t understand why you think Colin’s post shifts Empoof/Killjoy more towards town? Can you explain this further? My thoughts on Jenna are: she's weird but I'm not sure if that's because she's mafia or because she's new. I'm content with letting her explore the game for now, basically. I'm wondering about how you went from "Wow, I hope she's town" to "let me write a long ass post and then vote her", though. Can you explain what changed for you? Most of those Jenna posts are from before you made your initial read...
@Voxxicus - I decided that reading you off of RVS posts wasn't very helpful, and decided to wait for you to come back and give Actual Real Content. I'm trying to fend off the paranoia descent into madness, but it's really hard with no info. I thought these phases would give me more time to think and actually try and balance the game with irl, but instead it's just me dying inside because I have too much time to think and nowhere to vent the cr*zy. Like your posts are good and Voxx-y but then I remember 166 exists and I know you know better than to post ***** like that and im dying squirtle
------
Now I need to make a T/S list and vote. Probably will get that out sometime today.
That was DoTA.
Ehh. I don't trust any town reads of you ever. Didn't want to rule it out myself.
NAI, the former seems. What progression?
Yeah, the evasiveness and pretending to have answered questions suggest that she has something to hide. I'm thinking a scum alignment.
Empoof's lack of posting given the lack of content in his first poat put him at just below null for me. My notation was "~ ... -", meaning null, with not much to go on, and a very slight lean towards scum; not really a read. Killjoy has posted pretty well, though.
As for Jenna, the seed of doubt due to evasiveness grew over time, especially after the "I'm not cagey" response. If Jenna gives some good clear answers and actively tries to solve, I will reconsider my read. Or if anyone can make a convincing argument for Jenna being town... But I'm currently more bothered by her than by Tubba's myriad of scumtells. So make of that what you will.
If Dot's reasoning on Shadow is scummy, how come Osie isn't scummy for following?
@DoTA Sorry, for some reason I looked at you and was like: "yes, he is a professional mafia player." I honestly don't know why. You're right that you didn't jump on the shadow wagon per say, but your original vote was definitely RVS and you only confirmed your vote in post 52, once the wagon was L-3. Sorry if that wasn't clear the first time I said it.
I tried to read page 4 like 6 times and got about nothing out of it, so I'm just gonna try to quickly respond to anything that is directed at me.
That's all I've played in so far. What does ISO mean?
@Whoever asked me for my read on Osi and Voxx Osi's 1st few posts seemed pretty scummy to me, but appears to be getting steadily townier. For lack of stronger reads as of right now, I'd say he's scum. As for Voxx, I've kind of been not paying attention to him at all. I'm going to read through him post by post to get some info and make a read list when I feel a bit better.
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
Isolation. Refers to reading a single player's posts in isolation.
VX. CO, and myself are Those Trusted.
KJ and SL are Unknown Agents,
VI, AB, RT, TF, KT require Future JT to chime: Please remind me of these people? Thank you for that prompt response about AB particularly.
DA and OO are Those Untrusted.
Future JT, again: Even if you still distrust OO, it would go a long way to fulfill the twelve.
This is slight Future JT speaking: AB aligns with you, Past JT, in both thought and assignment.
1: Tau's push on me is incredibly flimsy, basically taking issue with my RVS vote and the timing of my Osie vote. Osie's behaviour on the Shadow wagon has been noted as scummy by more than just me, so I don't understand why the timing matters or is alignment indicative, unless it's more about protecting his buddy than finding actual scum. Look at #180, #183, and #184 just for starters.
2: Not liking the question is one thing, but turning it into a scum read with zero interaction with me is something else. That point combined with your statement that you don't think I'm posting like mafia is somewhat troubling. Essentially you're giving me credit for hiding my alignment, based on your assumption of my alignment from a fairly innocuous question?
3: This is a counterpoint to Colin's claim. How am I so blatantly scummy to Osie, but deceptively scummy to Colin? Actually, I don't think Osie has said why I'm scummy at all? I briefly skimmed her ISO, and short of calling me scum with the weakest of reasons in #129 and mentioning my actions as NAI in #190, Osie hasn't really made much of a case for having me as one of her top scum reads.
4: Did I just Day One solve this *****?
1: Tau's push on me is incredibly flimsy, basically taking issue with my RVS vote and the timing of my Osie vote. Osie's behaviour on the Shadow wagon has been noted as scummy by more than just me, so I don't understand why the timing matters or is alignment indicative, unless it's more about protecting his buddy than finding actual scum. Look at #180, #183, and #184 just for starters.
2: Not liking the question is one thing, but turning it into a scum read with zero interaction with me is something else. That point combined with your statement that you don't think I'm posting like mafia is somewhat troubling. Essentially you're giving me credit for hiding my alignment, based on your assumption of my alignment from a fairly innocuous question?
3: This is a counterpoint to Colin's claim. How am I so blatantly scummy to Osie, but deceptively scummy to Colin? Actually, I don't think Osie has said why I'm scummy at all? I briefly skimmed her ISO, and short of calling me scum with the weakest of reasons in #129 and mentioning my actions as NAI in #190, Osie hasn't really made much of a case for having me as one of her top scum reads.
4: Did I just Day One solve this *****?
This post is gonna be a bit all over the place.
---
Dislike this post from shadow. This is something he should have done himself, and the fact that he had to sit there and ask other people to do it for him while showing no signs of wanting to figure out his own wagon is bad.
I'm town, Voxx is whatever, I kinda think Jenna is town. Someone asked me why, maybe, and I'll try to get to that later. 90% of it is ~feels~. I get the impression that she's having fun, like it's pretty palpable, but she's not doing it in a deceptive way.
One scum in DoTA/osie, maybe? DoTA is a comparatively easy lynch, and I know virtually nothing about osie as a player. My read on him is kinda "he's making the effort to talk to /everyone/, which, in a vacuum, I find to be townier than not." Actually no, it's potentially overly compensating. Grah.
shadow could also just be scum, but I don't think anyone has really made an attempt to swing the wagon off of him, or doubtcast it. Ehhhh, keeping him in the undecided pile, but like. Undecided-potentially-good.
---
I give this dumbtell a 6/10, kinda buy it. For D1, at least.
(Do scumteams still instruct newbies to pretend to not know how many scum there are? We've all outgrown that, right?)
I think I want to lynch A Bear, because I dislike what they've posted. Their line "You can pretend I have a vote on all four of them if you want" makes me go ??? because I know they believe (or at least they come from a site where the vast majority of players believed) you should have your vote on who think is scum, period.
Kiiinda digging Colin's confidence levels, but:
I'm very interested in hearing more about this.
'Cause like, I was okay with this Colin post, almost enough to lightly townread him, but then he gets to A Bear and literally the first thing that popped into my brain was "lol powerwolfing."
If A Bear has done any one single towny thing at all this game, nevermind being the towniest, then I'm the queen of Mars.
Man, now I'm tinfoiling osie scum.