I hate my inability to retain even a bare minimum of logical consistency when I fabricate my tunnels on people, so I'm gonna try to push my mislynches via jokes instead
oh look, I can do that too; what a stellar argument
Rodemy, do you think Killjoy intends to keep a light scumread on your first two posts going for the whole day? Do you have any opinion on Jey's post of ~reasoning right before the one you quoted?
Toastboy and tubba's entrances both feel like town working their way in to the game. Which may not mean as much for toast as he seems relatively experienced (though I particularly like him working through of shadow vs eternal) but iirc tubba is in his first game and that's pretty meaningful.
Both of their "to the heart of things" questions is exactly what I'm NOT seeing from blues.
(Still have about 30 or so posts to read, but I have to start working)
@Shadow: do you consider yourself good at making jokes?
@Vaimes: why the page 1 townread on Kabazame? What triggered that?
@Killjoy: why the townread on Latin and scumread on Rodemy page 1?
@Rodemy: how can it be “too early” for pressure? (post 53)
Town
EL
Lean town
Rodemy (first post claim)
Shadow (reaction to Kabazame’s RVS post feels forced. Breadcrumb seems real. Fight with EL seems tvt)
LnGrrrR
Null
Vaimes
Anaklusmos
Killjoy
Blues
Lean scum
Kabazame (refusing to RVS vote. Grills Study without voting.)
Jey K (goes on about nothing else than her username for too long. Pressure on EL for breaking RVS over-the-top. Very self-conscious.)
Scum
Pa Tennis (I don’t like the naked not random vote on Shadow at all. #107 feels off. Calling someone adorable seems to come from a scum mindset.)
Study Latin (#62 feels like he knows Tubba Fett is town. This question in #81 is bad: “@All, who reads EL vs. Shadow as T/T? S/T? Or vice-versa?” He makes a good post about EL and Shadow in #90, but tacks this on, which is bad: “I'll wait a little on top scumreads because I don't think everyone has posted in the thread yet iirc.”)
@Rhand: Looks like your reads are top-to-bottom Town-to-Mafia. In that case, what's your reason for voting Tennis over Latin? I understand wanting to push an existing wagon to get some interaction, but the fact that you're practically the only person not Town-reading Latin should make him the more important vote to push in order to get some new opinions flowing.
Not criticizing the choice, cuz voting your second-strongest scum-read is fine too; I'm just curious as to the reason.
@Shadow: do you consider yourself good at making jokes?
I did right up until you posted this, in which case you must not find me funny. Which is kind of annoying, because it means my first part of this post is probably not funny...crap.
Would really appreciate a sanity check on the RVS double standard thing.
Rodemy is attacking Killjoy, literally saying he must justify an opinion because it's unjustifiable. He is, by his own paramaters, putting Killjoy in an impossible position. Again, for saying the words "potential light scumread"
Shadow was probing for meaning in Eternal/Vaimes' posts while his own seemed crafted to have none. But both him and Eternal really seem to be at the same place from different directions. Where Shadow was random early on real solving seems to have steadily crept in, and really that's all Eternal seems to have been doing with yes serious but not super serious pushing he just doesn't think of it as random at all.
So, to answer your question @Latin:
I think that was likely a town v town argument with a fair helping of meta clash.
@EternalLurker Quit being so dramatic, I'm giving you a hard time; somebody has to after your rough play has been called out twice already I'm not going to find anything else by continuing to apply pressure, sure, but if you think accusing me of tunneling is enough to make me drop my #1 scumread... like, what? I feel like that's the only thing you're doing but you've also attempted to make points around what I've been saying but 80% of it has been putting inaccurate interpretations of what I said vs. what I meant which doesn't suit well.
The post where you take two of my quotes side by side and make a comment about 'misinterpretation' doesn't make sense. Why would I move my vote from someone I strongly believe to be scum?
You also forget that I keep saying I understand how you could be considered town, but I know for a fact that being scum is faking it until you make it. I have no doubt you're 100% genuine but I can't shake the feeling that there's still something more going on back there along with the 'villain' attributes I get from your posts. If it weren't for that, I could be convinced you were town because I see where you're coming from.
---
Okay, I don't have those bad feelings toward shadowlancerx from his most recent posts. I'll keep a close watch still, but for now he's good.
@shadowlancerx It made me laugh I should apologize to EL though since it accomplishes nothing but be a dick. Sorry!
...I've been laughing a lot this game. That's a good sign.
---
Mostly null from Rhand so far.
---
Pa Tennis I've re-read your latest post more times than I care to admit and I can't... tell what's going on? Does your first sentence have anything to do with the rest of the post? That's what's tripping me up.
...Rhand, I had a feeling that you were in my first game on this site (and I looked, you were!) when I had my original username which caused problems the entire game, and even motivated me enough to change it to what it is now. I think I changed it early on into my second game? I don't exactly remember, but I was not ready to tolerate another entire mafia game of people goofing my name.
Side note, I think EL and Shadow are both likely town after that back and forth.
Could you possibly explain why you're seeing it as TvT from your perspective? Do you like EL's general response better than Shadow's push? Or are they more equal to you?
I'm saying that he was copying what you were doing, since you're being widely Town-read.
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from better after mulling this over, and I think it might've been a playstyle clash. I can't remember the last time somebody found someone scummy for 'mimicking' another player's actions, but I could see this being possible or more common in F2F mafia, which is the meta you're coming from.
And Pa's #107 at least answered the question for why he voted Shadow, though I'm hoping it's not going to be a pattern for him to throw votes at people with no apparent reasoning behind them. That he calls my questions busywork is annoying, given that it's intended to get people to elaborate on their concerns and thought processes (though I was catching up on an entire day's worth of posting at once, so it was admittedly somewhat scattered).
Hmm. How do you feel about his current push on you? Are you drawing anything alignment indicative from his posts/position in the game?
My concerns with my town read on you were largely for three reasons. First, the possible pocketing of Fett. Though this is more due to his actions than yours, I feel that you should be encouraging him to form his own conclusions based on the facts - he seems very willing to accept your explanation of another player's posts rather than asking those players for clarification directly, and a scum player could easily be taking advantage of that. It means that I'm likely to scrutinize your responses to him a bit further, both because of possible pocketing and because if he is simply accepting your reads rather than requesting additional details from the player who made the post and forming his own reads, it puts you in the position of easily influencing a second vote. This is also why my comment to Fett was directing him to work towards forming his own leads - if he's willing to simply accept your opinions and take them as his own, you become a more important player regardless of your leanings.
This sounds like a very dubious townread. By extending a hand to Fett, it was not my intention to mislead him from forming his own conclusions, do you feel that I did this in my response to him? And if so, could you possibly point to something semantically that explains why you feel I did this with scum intentions?
I have never heard of 'possible pocketing' only pocketing and not pocketing.
A keystone read is someone who's alignment helps me figure out more people. As of right now, I think Latin is town. As for what that means, I'll have to get back to you.
You seem to be doing something similar to Killjoy in which you're withholding reads of certain players, and/or simply not stating them. Could you possibly explain why?
My first impression was that it was good, it pushed the game forward and engaged everyone. But then I went through it again instead of just skimming and most of it is just filler. I kinda still don't mind it, I'm not really seeing an angle or agenda from it.
Pre-Edit: And his most recent post helps a lot. I have asked questions similarly in the past just to get into someone else's headspace. I like it, I'm happy with where BE is at right now.
Ok, that's fair. I was looking for a possible take on why he feels to be waffling a bit with his read on me and putting up reasons as to why he's 'uncertain' about my alignment yet reads me town. It could possibly just take him time to do.
@Study Latin your #81: Is there any specific reason you're trying to answer this for the posters of those reads rather than letting them explain themselves? This seems weird to me; I know you're trying to help out a newbie, I suppose, but were you hoping for more? If so, what?
In my response to BE, I explain that was not my intent.
I'm not going to say EternalLurker's vote on Pa Tennis seems awful, because he makes a good point, but I'm going to point out that my scummiest read is voting my towniest read.
This I am having a bit of trouble with understanding. I have not picked up on Lurker having any Top-down perspectives thus far in the game, can you find any other instances where you think he does this? Also, how do you feel about Tennis not explaining all of his reads fully?
Oh? Explain. give me a PBP (read 2 posts.) I don't buy scumreads based off 2 rvs posts. The only thing you can get a scumlean from my first post is the fact i am voting seppel (my only meta) which would mean you'd mention Jey's vote on iso.. buuut hey you don't mention him at all. So it would have to be my one post about Eternal fearmongoring. What about that pings your scumdar?
This needs to be unburied from the megapost. Does anyone find this reaction to a "potential light scumread" 40 posts in to a game reasonable? Especially coming from someone who purports to believe RVS doesn't mean anything.
It's reasonable [from a town perspective] I'd say, but somewhat unsubstantial to form a read from imo. Rodemy wanting to draw that info into the thread could easily come from a townie who wants to challenge scumreads and interact with people, but it's all been done before by the multiple people who asked KJ to clarify.
We need to lynch EternalLurker before he has a chance to abuse his town-cred for some messed up mis-lynches.
Annnnnd scum
vote Jey K
So, I take it EL is a top townread of yours, and you want to defend him, correct? What's lost in translation here is what about Jey's reasoning or approach to EL makes her scummy?
Jeez, the flood of contradictions oozing from your posts is really melting through my Town-read of you.
Oh man, this is really weird how you narrarate your thoughts on players as the game is going. It's almost like a soliloquy. I can see why Shadow thought that one instance of you sounding like you were threatening to vote somebody sounded scummy. This will take some getting used to.
Lean town
Rodemy (first post claim)
Shadow (reaction to Kabazame’s RVS post feels forced. Breadcrumb seems real. Fight with EL seems tvt)
LnGrrrR
Null
Vaimes
Anaklusmos
Killjoy
Blues
Lean scum
Kabazame (refusing to RVS vote. Grills Study without voting.)
Jey K (goes on about nothing else than her username for too long. Pressure on EL for breaking RVS over-the-top. Very self-conscious.)
Scum
Pa Tennis (I don’t like the naked not random vote on Shadow at all. #107 feels off. Calling someone adorable seems to come from a scum mindset.)
Study Latin (#62 feels like he knows Tubba Fett is town. This question in #81 is bad: “@All, who reads EL vs. Shadow as T/T? S/T? Or vice-versa?” He makes a good post about EL and Shadow in #90, but tacks this on, which is bad: “I'll wait a little on top scumreads because I don't think everyone has posted in the thread yet iirc.”)
vote Pa Tennis
I suppose it would be very time consuming to ask for more explanation on most of these. I am interested in knowing more about your townread on Rodemy, and Grr however. Could you explain why you think calling someone adorable is coming from a scum mindset? I can see it being condescending, but I don't think the word choice alone indicates scum. To dive right into the thick of your read on me, explain semantically where I exhibit the knowledge that Fett is town in that post. Not everyone needed to address my question, but I said it because it's a major event in the game thus far, and I would like to see people's opinions on it. You're right on that last note though, I was being kind of hypocritical by asking people to explain with-held reads and not giving my own top two scumreads, so I suppose I'll amend that.
---
Killjoy sits at Neutral to possible scum for me, and my vote was there to get him to engage people about his reads he gave but never explained, but by his response I'm guessing he'll do that eventually.
Unvote
I'm much more interested in hearing Rodemy respond to my questions about their vote on Jey. I didn't like that vote, it felt like a chainsaw defense of EL that I don't think was really necessary in regards to Jey. And Jey finding EL scummy is nothing new, it was only when they said to run-up EL and end the phase quick that Rodemy decided to vote Jey. At that time, why did Rodemy decide to vote them? Does his vote lay in qualms Rodemy has with Jey's approach to the game? Or just her EL scumread specifically?
I'm not going to say EternalLurker's vote on Pa Tennis seems awful, because he makes a good point, but I'm going to point out that my scummiest read is voting my towniest read.
This I am having a bit of trouble with understanding. I have not picked up on Lurker having any Top-down perspectives thus far in the game, can you find any other instances where you think he does this? Also, how do you feel about Tennis not explaining all of his reads fully?
I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're asking.
Probably the same way I feel toward myself as I'm not explaining any of my reads.
EternalLurker gives me the impression that he has inside information, only something that scum have in a mafia game. I think there's something better to support this later but I haven't gotten there yet. Still reading.
shadowlancer was in said game, so I'd imagine he'd've learned that lesson.
I hate this all over again. I can't help but feel like EternalLurker continues to seem like he has inside knowledge somehow. You wouldn't normally gather that from a statement like this, but it's what I feel.
No-one actually trying to analyse this game would still be hung up Latin's posting style and responding to anyone that even slightly mentions it. You went quite a few posts without saying anything else and when you did post about another player it comes in a second post like an afterthought. His reasons for suspicion are often couched wiggle room "eg "I guess" #66, "I'm not ruling things out" #120, and no votes as of yet I believe. Some logic doesn't follow and leads to thin aspersions eg #87 describing Lurker as town because "He's drawing a lot of attention to himself (ironically) when he could be lurking pretty easily” - so could anyone, why Lurker in particular? The tone of all of his posts is awkward and feels like he's is searching for justification rather than actually analysing posts. Lastly the cringey "I guess you mean me lol" in #121 is quite telling in his assumptions - this read as a direct question asking him to contribute some thoughts but it was interpreted as a personal comment, showing a sense of vulnerability.
I'm not hung up on it anymore, but people ask about it and I answer. That's typically what you do when someone asks you a question
Why does it matter if I haven't voted yet? It's a 2-week long day 1, what's the rush into voting? You guys are so reckless with your vote and it loses meaning every time you vote someone for the smallest offense
That last quote "I guess you mean me" was because he completely spelled my name wrong, so idk what you're talking about with that!
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from better after mulling this over, and I think it might've been a playstyle clash. I can't remember the last time somebody found someone scummy for 'mimicking' another player's actions, but I could see this being possible or more common in F2F mafia, which is the meta you're coming from.
When someone's being widely Town-read, it makes perfect sense for scum to try to mimic that person's playstyle in order to be Town-read as well. It's not super common in IRL Mafia (though I have seen it a couple times); that read was simply based on what I was seeing, not on past experience.
We need to lynch EternalLurker before he has a chance to abuse his town-cred for some messed up mis-lynches.
Annnnnd scum
vote Jey K
So, I take it EL is a top townread of yours, and you want to defend him, correct? What's lost in translation here is what about Jey's reasoning or approach to EL makes her scummy?
Rodemy wasn't remotely Town-reading me, but that form of rush-to-lynch is scummy, and the reason for it ("we can't let him lead lynches") is scummy. I still don't think JeY K is scum, but Rodemy certainly doesn't have to Town-read me to find that post super scummy.
Oh man, this is really weird how you narrarate your thoughts on players as the game is going. It's almost like a soliloquy. I can see why Shadow thought that one instance of you sounding like you were threatening to vote somebody sounded scummy. This will take some getting used to.
I mean, I've done the same for my Town-reads (on you and recently on shadow). I'm communicative. There's rarely a purpose to holding back information unless it's role-related.
You're right on that last note though, I was being kind of hypocritical by asking people to explain with-held reads and not giving my own top two scumreads, so I suppose I'll amend that.
For the record, I can understand why Rhand had a problem with that, but I don't. If you'd said your top Mafia-reads and withheld your top Town-reads, then I'd have an issue regardless of the context, but in context talking about Town-reads while not discussing Mafia-reads was fine. Scum's less likely to lock off potential mislynch targets that early without at least offering other possible targets in exchange.
I'm much more interested in hearing Rodemy respond to my questions about their vote on Jey. I didn't like that vote, it felt like a chainsaw defense of EL that I don't think was really necessary in regards to Jey. And Jey finding EL scummy is nothing new, it was only when they said to run-up EL and end the phase quick that Rodemy decided to vote Jey. At that time, why did Rodemy decide to vote them? Does his vote lay in qualms Rodemy has with Jey's approach to the game? Or just her EL scumread specifically?
Addressed this three paragraphs up, but I gotta say...chainsaw defense of me? I don't think Rodemy's even remotely on my side right now.
I mean, I'm fine with you scum-reading Rodemy and all, since I am too, but I strongly disagree with your reason for doing so. Rodemy's distaste for that post looked genuine and was reasonable.
Why does it matter if I haven't voted yet? It's a 2-week long day 1, what's the rush into voting? You guys are so reckless with your vote and it loses meaning every time you vote someone for the smallest offense
I disagree with much of Toastboy's analysis of you (for the reasons you covered in this post), but the voting issue is a perfectly valid point. There's no reason to hold back your vote, especially in a game like this wherein occasional official vote-counts help track where everyone's suspicions currently lie. "Meaning" isn't relevant here.
Mafia is all about communication; that's the Town's only reliable source of information. Voting is a form of communication. Going this long without a vote is essentially telling Town that you don't consider anyone to be scummy, which is extremely odd at this point in the game.
Town points:
Pa Tennis - I like the effort going back and digging up that Rodemy post. Good points without posting an entire Great Wall of China to make them. Pretty much laughed in EL's face when he voted him which was tells me he's not worried. Scum is usually not dumb enough to vote and not explain it, they are usually more calculated in how they play
EL - The loud abrasive guy is like never scum but always gets lynched anyway. Classic TvT fight with Shadowlancer, as others have said. Bolding a bunch of words in his posts draws a lot of attention which is not usually what scum wants to do. It's easy to skim through the walls but he drew me in with the bold.
Shadowlancer - Looks like a TvT with Lurker, but less sold on him
Anak - he made a good point on Lngr being making that vote as scum and being able to adjust his motives based on the situation. Overall hasn't done much though but leaning town
Leaning scum:
Latin - too paranoid about every vote or criticism of him. Asking people to "explain semantically" what they don't like all the time is like he's trying to figure out how exactly to not look scummy.
Jey k - tunneling EL too hard and I don't really like her reasons for it. I don't understand at all why she thinks he has "inside info" and that feels made up. P.S. sorry for calling you a guy earlier
Zionite - barely shows up and posts nothing much when he does. I think he has like 2 posts
We have a lot of people who are not voting. Shadow and Grr are two names who stick out. Vaimes is V/la, Fett is new, and Kabazame is newish? Killjoy is inactive. I bring this up because I feel there's enough AI content for everyone to be voting someone, whoever that person may be, at this stage in the game.
When someone's being widely Town-read, it makes perfect sense for scum to try to mimic that person's playstyle in order to be Town-read as well. It's not super common in IRL Mafia (though I have seen it a couple times); that read was simply based on what I was seeing, not on past experience.
Fair enough, I can follow.
Rodemy wasn't remotely Town-reading me, but that form of rush-to-lynch is scummy, and the reason for it ("we can't let him lead lynches") is scummy. I still don't think JeY K is scum, but Rodemy certainly doesn't have to Town-read me to find that post super scummy.
I must've missed where Rodemy was scumreading you. This vote makes even less sense now. The want to lynch you that badly from Jey struck me as irony because ending the day this soon is not only a horrible idea it's also really suboptimal play for town.
There's rarely a purpose to holding back information unless it's role-related.
I can feel the playstyle clashes rising left and right. Not for me, speficially.
I'm much more interested in hearing Rodemy respond to my questions about their vote on Jey. I didn't like that vote, it felt like a chainsaw defense of EL that I don't think was really necessary in regards to Jey. And Jey finding EL scummy is nothing new, it was only when they said to run-up EL and end the phase quick that Rodemy decided to vote Jey. At that time, why did Rodemy decide to vote them? Does his vote lay in qualms Rodemy has with Jey's approach to the game? Or just her EL scumread specifically?
Addressed this three paragraphs up, but I gotta say...chainsaw defense of me? I don't think Rodemy's even remotely on my side right now.
I mean, I'm fine with you scum-reading Rodemy and all, since I am too, but I strongly disagree with your reason for doing so. Rodemy's distaste for that post looked genuine and was reasonable.[/quote]He voted Pa Tennis, and you voted Pa Tennis previously. Maybe you guys aren't so different in terms of veiw on the game?
We have a lot of people who are not voting. Shadow and Grr are two names who stick out. Vaimes is V/la, Fett is new, and Kabazame is newish? Killjoy is inactive. I bring this up because I feel there's enough AI content for everyone to be voting someone, whoever that person may be, at this stage in the game.
When someone's being widely Town-read, it makes perfect sense for scum to try to mimic that person's playstyle in order to be Town-read as well. It's not super common in IRL Mafia (though I have seen it a couple times); that read was simply based on what I was seeing, not on past experience.
Fair enough, I can follow.
Rodemy wasn't remotely Town-reading me, but that form of rush-to-lynch is scummy, and the reason for it ("we can't let him lead lynches") is scummy. I still don't think JeY K is scum, but Rodemy certainly doesn't have to Town-read me to find that post super scummy.
I must've missed where Rodemy was scumreading you. This vote makes even less sense now. The want to lynch you that badly from Jey struck me as irony because ending the day this soon is not only a horrible idea it's also really suboptimal play for town.
There's rarely a purpose to holding back information unless it's role-related.
I can feel the playstyle clashes rising left and right. Not for me, speficially.
I'm much more interested in hearing Rodemy respond to my questions about their vote on Jey. I didn't like that vote, it felt like a chainsaw defense of EL that I don't think was really necessary in regards to Jey. And Jey finding EL scummy is nothing new, it was only when they said to run-up EL and end the phase quick that Rodemy decided to vote Jey. At that time, why did Rodemy decide to vote them? Does his vote lay in qualms Rodemy has with Jey's approach to the game? Or just her EL scumread specifically?
Addressed this three paragraphs up, but I gotta say...chainsaw defense of me? I don't think Rodemy's even remotely on my side right now.
I mean, I'm fine with you scum-reading Rodemy and all, since I am too, but I strongly disagree with your reason for doing so. Rodemy's distaste for that post looked genuine and was reasonable.
He voted Pa Tennis, and you voted Pa Tennis previously. Maybe you guys aren't so different in terms of veiw on the game?
Asking people to "explain semantically" what they don't like all the time is like [Latin]'s trying to figure out how exactly to not look scummy.
Oh man, this is normally one of the things I pounce on scum for doing; dumb of me to miss that here. I'm still Town-reading Latin overall, as the line between "explain yourself because I disagree" and "explain yourself so I can change my behavior to become a Town-read for you" is sometimes hard to find. But I'll definitely keep a better eye out for that from Latin in future. This also makes me even more unhappy with BluesEclipse's apparent mimicry of Latin's question-wall style for Blues' debut post.
@Shadow: #15 felt to me like you were trying too hard to br funny. Was that meant as funny?
It was a tongue in cheek vote rather than actually aiming to be funny.
@Latin: regarding voting atm, I know, I should be voting, but I keep coming back to wanting to vote EL but I don't think that will be helpful. I'll probably build a TS list and go from there, I've got less than half of the game placed, and I that's not indicative of the activity in game so far.
Why does it matter if I haven't voted yet? It's a 2-week long day 1, what's the rush into voting? You guys are so reckless with your vote and it loses meaning every time you vote someone for the smallest offense
I disagree with much of Toastboy's analysis of you (for the reasons you covered in this post), but the voting issue is a perfectly valid point. There's no reason to hold back your vote, especially in a game like this wherein occasional official vote-counts help track where everyone's suspicions currently lie. "Meaning" isn't relevant here.
Mafia is all about communication; that's the Town's only reliable source of information. Voting is a form of communication. Going this long without a vote is essentially telling Town that you don't consider anyone to be scummy, which is extremely odd at this point in the game.
I disagree honestly. You can communicate without voting. Throwing your vote around carelessly means no one will care when you vote them because you're bound to just switch to someone else soon enough. Like the boy who cried wolf. Also if you vote someone you pretty much tell them exactly what they're doing wrong which makes it pretty easy for them to change their style, so it's better to have a large sample size of posts before that so you have more to work with.
I'm a very patient player. I'm stingy with my vote and I don't lay out all my scum reads in the topic, because scum can see that and change their play around it. I prod, I set little traps, and I observe, and when the time is right I pounce like a jungle cat. That's just how I play (as either alignment honestly) and if we play together more often you'll notice it.
BTW, I don't mean to make excuses, but I typically play with 48 hour days so this 2 week thing is really stopping me from having any sense of urgency. lol
Open question: who on this playerlist has the best scumgame?
That's a preeeeetttttty leading question.
Vote: Study Latin
I'm interested only to gain an idea of the site-meta and overall skill level of players here.
You don't have to answer it if you don't want to.
Here is the initial back-and-forth between Lurker and Latin. Latin asks who we all think has the best scumgame here, which Lurker thinks that Latin's specificly looking for the best scum is scummy because Latin 'wants to focus on that player for fear that they could fly under the radar'. Basically he is saying that Latin is going to jump on the best scum player regardless of alignment. Obviously this is unlikely to actually happen, but it shows a thought process. He had a thought, and is pressuring based on it.
Uh, whatever tone means I don't like the question? Asking who the best player is would be...something. Asking who the best scum player is sounds like Latin (ouch, can't use SL for either of you two) wants to focus on that player for fear that a good scum player could fly under the radar. Which, while it might seem logical on the surface, is a really bad idea because random alignment rolls don't care who's a good or bad scum player.
Otherwise we'd all just have to lynch you Day One, obviously. Are you asking us to do that?
It's rvs, but explain this to me. You're basing the reasoning for your vote on scum-motivation that lies in events that haven't occurred? You extrapolated the scummiest thing I could do from asking a question like that, and then voted me?
---
@Shadow, why ask EL about the tone of their post specifically?
Here's Latin's response to it. I took note on the lack of defensiveness in it. The tone is entirely clarifiying.
You extrapolated the scummiest thing I could do from asking a question like that, and then voted me?
I extrapolated what seemed to be the most probable reason for asking a question like that. Tell me if there's another reason for it.
Note that my explanation didn't imply that the probable reasoning for the question was inherently scummy. Your being defensive about it is odd. I specifically stated that the reasoning might seem logical but was simply a bad idea, which implies more "poor play" rather than "scummy behavior".
Obviously, I wouldn't normally vote someone for a decision with which I disagree, but it's RVS, so why not?
So here is another of Lurker's responses. It's a little odd, now that I'm reading it more closely.He cites Latin for being defensive, even though he wasn't. And while he was pointing out that it was a bad idea, he only voted because it was RVS.Huh.
I extrapolated what seemed to be the most probable reason for asking a question like that. Tell me if there's another reason for it.
I didn't really think the question could be seen as alignment indicative in hindsight, which is why I questioned you gaining scumvibes from it.
Don't really think it breaks down into scummy reason nor townie reason.
Note that my explanation didn't imply that the probable reasoning for the question was inherently scummy. Your being defensive about it is odd. I specifically stated that the reasoning might seem logical but was simply a bad idea, which implies more "poor play" rather than "scummy behavior".
So you voted me for poor play as opposed to something scummy?
What exactly do you read "odd" about my questions in regards to your vote?
Obviously, I wouldn't normally vote someone for a decision with which I disagree, but it's RVS, so why not?
I thought rvs ended the moment you find something alignment indicative, thus voting would no longer be random.
Here is Latin's response to that post. Again, no defensiveness. He keeps a cool head and explains the situation.
@Latin: You just quoted three parts of my post and responded to each separately, even though each subsequent part specifically answers your previous response. C'mon. Do you just want me to repeat myself by answering you again? No thanks.
I'm gonna be a stick in the mud, no RVS vote from me.
O.o have you ever not RVS voted before?
Yeah, that's...new.
Kinda wanna switch my vote, but I already opened by voting Vaimes, so I'll let you do the honors if you'd like.
Actually, Lurker's response to Shadow here is odd because he is hesitant to switch what he admits is a random vote to someone he actually thinks is scummy because he doesn't usually random vote... because he random voted him earlier? That actually makes no sense.
and cuz Killjoy's calling me-vs-Latin a TvT situation, which isn't really helpful for scum to proclaim in this situation, so I'll trust the outsider's perspective for now
And now he's putting a scumread on hold because... someone thinks Latin might be town? This only makes sense for one reason (tunneling) which he doesn't seem to be doing.
Why do you assume I find his lack of a vote scummy? Depending on his answer, it's either null or slightly more likely to be a town decision.
You said that it's something he's never done before. Uncommon behavior implies something is different from the norm about his role or alignment, thus inducing that odd behavior. Given that people should rand Town more often than Mafia, an alignment "different from the norm" would mean scum. It's possible he instead has an uncommon Town role making him act differently, but chances are that uncommon behavior means scummy behavior, just by math.
It's also possible that this is null, obviously, but why call attention to it if you think it's null?
And this post seems... IDK. Uncommon behavior=scummy behavior because rand chance for scum is less?
Huh. Maybe I was wrong about Lurker. I'll have to do a more in-depth look at him when I have more free time.
My original thoughts were that I liked his tone/language. I could see his thoughts in his posting style. I apperently just never looked too deeply into them. Blah.
But Latin is def likely town I think.
re: RodemyThat was literally just a hunch, so I said I was lightly scumreading him to see how he'd react. He's being very defensive.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@jey
Its part of the same thought. I must not be explaining it well. The double standard is that rodemy is making Killjoy explain a read while his own posts were just meaningless.
@rhand
That will likely happen again. I vote when I vote, I explain when I explain.
@Latin
Keystone read doesn't mean much for my actual read of you. It's more about getting reads on other players based on how they approach you. It's just a prediction, and is a long time from coming to fruition anyway. Feel free to ask about that again day 3 or so.
And I'm not actively withholding. See answer to rhand above, and also note that I'm still figuring out how exactly this site meta works. I'm realistically already going more in depth than I'd really prefer. Kinda think I like the accountability that seemingly comes with more time but it's pretty inconsistent, at least early on.
Kabazame I continue to sympathize with. I think he's probably still town for doing his own thing/how he's approaching the change in playstyle or whatever of a new site/phaselength.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@EternalLurker's135 Perhaps if you didn't dominate the thread with the arrogance of assuming you have the game solved on page one, it'd seem otherwise normal.
Toastboy's 145 stuck me as odd that he votes Kabazame but doesn't really elaborate, goes back to talking about Study Latin. But when I react with an "oh boy", I really want to rant about it. Why didn't you here?
Kabazame's 175 seems to restate what others have said before. Why is not posting = scum? The most scum even.
And then we come back to EL again in , who doesn't know when to stop posting. You aren't going to bully me into doing anything. Better players have tried and failed. However I will explain why I feel this way since you're feeling so chatty.
When I first started playing mafia, I constantly incriminated myself as town, Day 1. Sometimes I'd be the hugest distraction and red herring, again as town. I tried lynching the host once just to see what'd happen (and failed). My first games were terrible for my team because they couldn't focus; I was hogging the spotlight with inane chatter that didn't matter. But what I learned from these games is that there's a time to speak, and a time to let others speak. I don't assume I'm going to have the game solved on page one. I speak up when I have something to say. I'll push hard when I need to make a move. This is all I can do as a player and I'll use that to my advantage when I can.
So did you have a specific question to ask, or are you just trying to blow smoke?
Sitting around and analyzing can be very useful for a Townie to do. But it's also a ridiculously easy way for Mafia to hide. And we have no way of knowing you're not the latter when you don't interact enough to give us any chance whatsoever to read you. So, no, your excuse means nothing to me. Claiming that you'll "speak up when [you] have something to say" is pretty silly when you've repeatedly shown that you do have things to say whenever you're summoned by people pointing out your attempts to hide, as long as you also get to accompany your statements with false indignation at the oh-so-crazy idea that anyone would be upset by your complete lack of readable interactions.
On Day One, chances are good Town will mis-lynch someone. But if that person then flips as a Townie, the rest of the Town will know to go back and reread his/her remarks and interactions for clues, so the lynch won't have been a total waste. Mis-lynching someone who's had no contributions or interactions all Day would be a total waste, because Town would get no information out of that. So lynching lurkers is very low-reward and thus rarely done, which means that allowing lurkers to exist creates a meta in which Mafia can easily hide by contributing nothing all Day. And that would be a completely Mafia-sided meta.
Unless you want to promote a Mafia-sided meta, lurking isn't an option.
And it's really ******* disingenuous to claim that I've made any indications of "having the game solved on page one", or even now by page four. My reads of people have constantly shifted, sometimes due to my rereads of posts, often due to other people bringing up points that I then considered. Even a cursory skim of the thread proves that statement to be totally baseless shade.
So, welcome back to the game, and it'd be nice if you'd actually stick around this time. When you specifically express regret at missing RVS, which is all about interaction, you don't have much of a leg on which to stand in trying to avoid interaction at this stage. That just makes it look like you want to have the false interaction of RVS to pretend to be here, but don't wanna actually have to commit to saying anything that can be used against you once the game gets serious.
anywho, back to Vote: BluesEclipse since the magical summon-Zionite button unsurprisingly worked yet again
(Also, your reaction to Toastboy's post #145 is nonsensical. He was talking about Kabazame throughout that entire subsequent paragraph. Kabazame was the one allegedly "hung up on Latin's posting style" and Toastboy was calling him out for it.)
How many town games have you played? How many scum games have you played?
Missed this earlier. First of all, I don't like the random shot at me with nothing explaining what you're talking about. I hadn't even posted since you reacted to my most recent post, so I don't know why you said this randomly. Doesn't look good, especially with Toast and Rhand posting their suspicious of me in the meantime... it looks like you might just be prepping to jump on the train if it starts!
To answer your question, I lost count. A lot of games each, in several communities and in two languages! So I have seen a lot of different playstyles
vote JeY
I'm confused by the sudden change of heart regarding EL. It kinda seems like no one else got on board with lynching and now you're back pedalling?
I don't buy killjoys reason for a "light scumread" me calling you out on it makes me scummy? I was not being defensive, i was aggressively asking you to explain.
I don't buy " it was a hunch" I don't get defensive as scum. I normally get dismissive tbh.
But that is neither here nor there.
Quick read time. Brb
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thank you for choosing
Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
EternalLurker gives me the impression that he has inside information, only something that scum have in a mafia game. I think there's something better to support this later but I haven't gotten there yet. Still reading.
shadowlancer was in said game, so I'd imagine he'd've learned that lesson.
I hate this all over again. I can't help but feel like EternalLurker continues to seem like he has inside knowledge somehow. You wouldn't normally gather that from a statement like this, but it's what I feel.
And this.
I think I explained that there's no way you could gather this idea but as someone who's spent a lot of time observing people, the way EternalLurker writes his posts gives me this vibe. There is nothing concrete to base this on that I'm aware of :\
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@Pa Tennis Thank you for elaborating, sorry I can't help you there. Rodemy is just crazy.
@Tubba Fett Nowhere did I say I changed my mind about him, I stated an observation about his posts seeming better. Just becuase he's scum doesn't mean he can't make good posts.
I'm gonna have to disagree with EL on d1 mislynches. Read apocolypse. We lynched AND shot scum d1. It just takes good analysis. It actually happens more often than you think.
You saying it doesn't happen much just feels like you are trying to justify any mislynches that occur and chalking it up to "it's just d1"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thank you for choosing
Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
Asking people to "explain semantically" what they don't like all the time is like [Latin]'s trying to figure out how exactly to not look scummy.
Oh man, this is normally one of the things I pounce on scum for doing; dumb of me to miss that here. I'm still Town-reading Latin overall, as the line between "explain yourself because I disagree" and "explain yourself so I can change my behavior to become a Town-read for you" is sometimes hard to find. But I'll definitely keep a better eye out for that from Latin in future. This also makes me even more unhappy with BluesEclipse's apparent mimicry of Latin's question-wall style for Blues' debut post.
What I intended when I said 'semantically' was more along the lines of "explain how what's said here is likely to come from a scum-mindset." I should've been more specific.
@Latin
Keystone read doesn't mean much for my actual read of you. It's more about getting reads on other players based on how they approach you. It's just a prediction, and is a long time from coming to fruition anyway. Feel free to ask about that again day 3 or so.
I fear that as the game progresses it could become increasingly hard if some players keep their cards as close to their chests as they are doing now.
And I'm not actively withholding. See answer to rhand above, and also note that I'm still figuring out how exactly this site meta works. I'm realistically already going more in depth than I'd really prefer. Kinda think I like the accountability that seemingly comes with more time but it's pretty inconsistent, at least early on.
Ok, I guess I'll take your word for it.
Kabazame I continue to sympathize with. I think he's probably still town for doing his own thing/how he's approaching the change in playstyle or whatever of a new site/phaselength.
We need to lynch EternalLurker before he has a chance to abuse his town-cred for some messed up mis-lynches.
Okay so this makes more sense after reading the post before.
unvote
Why the sudden change? That was a very short-lived push, and there are many questions left unanswered. Could you possibly revisit my questions in #169?
@EternalLurker's135Toastboy's 145 stuck me as odd that he votes Kabazame but doesn't really elaborate, goes back to talking about Study Latin. But when I react with an "oh boy", I really want to rant about it. Why didn't you here?
That is not how I read that post at all. What exactly are you talking about? He mentions a neutral read briefly on me and focuses quite a bit on why he think's Kabazame's tone and approach could be coming from scum. He pulls up posts Kabazame made interacting with me, but doesn't focus on me after his vote, and actually does elaborate on his read.
Zionite's post #188 is split into paragraphs that, in order, serve the following purposes:
1) attacking a post that rightfully calls him out for lurking
2) misreading a post
3) attacking a post that rightfully calls him out for lurking
4) attacking a post that rightfully calls him out for lurking
5) rationalizing his lurking with the excuse that he doesn't want to be lynched (meaning he's worried that speaking up at all will cause him to sound scummy)
6) claiming that people need to have specific questions in order to interact with him, even though he hasn't given us enough interaction to have any questions for him
That was about as content-less as it's possible for a post to be, while still bordering on a scum-tell in #5. What reason other than your "gut feelings" do you have to like this?
I don't buy killjoys reason for a "light scumread" me calling you out on it makes me scummy? I was not being defensive, i was aggressively asking you to explain.
I don't buy " it was a hunch" I don't get defensive as scum. I normally get dismissive tbh.
But that is neither here nor there.
Quick read time. Brb
Ok so.
1) You were being defensive. Asking aggressively and being defensive are not mutually exclusive.
2) I don't generally use meta as my memory tends to be untrustworthy at times.
3) Self meta isn't useful even if I did. You're aware you do it, so therefore you can fake it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Family wanted to visit Prague, so here we are. I will try to keep up, but being on vacation I have less time for online stuff than I would at work, strangely enough.
@Shadow, could you explain what you meant when you said, "You are so sure I am town"... when talking about chainsawing? The way you worded that doesnt't make sense to me, as you are implying he is scum, but also implying he wouldn't know if you were town or not. Both of those can't be true.
Put your vote somewhere. Also, for someone relatively active (and not a noob IIRC), the only hunting I have seen you do is to qiestion Latin on his word choice, which is an easy thing to go back on later. While I am not great at it, I have seen vote analysis work wonders in the hands of players like Rhand. (Rhand, you're town this game, right? Please and thanks.)
@Shadow, when you first mentiomed chainsawing, you said, "You're so sure I am town..." But if he was scum, of course he would be sure if you were town... barring some third party shenanigans that I doubt this game has. Could you explain why you wrote it in that particular way?
Just realized I missed this; the reason for wording that way is exactly because scum would be sure I was town. The point I was making was that that early in the game, a chainsaw vote raises my eyebrows because no one should be that sure.
I'm torn on it; he had this hidden read of Lurker being pretty strong town, and then when he finally does a breakdown, he basically says "never mind, Lurker could go either way". I see this being one of two ways, either a scum motivated pull back against strongly white knighting someone that they realized could be a viable lynch target after all, or a town mistake with a very honest admittance that he was wrong. I'm trying to decide if KJ would have been willing to stick to his original leaning as scum, but I don't think he would have.
@KJ: Why focus on Lurker vs Latin here out of all of Lurker's interactions?I am not getting any sort of TvT feel from Jey vs Lurker here, and would not be surprised if one of them was scum. That being said, certain things from each have pinged me as townie; Jey specifically talking about laughing and enjoying the game has a feel of being genuine, and while scum are perfectly capable of being genuine, I'm not sure they would think to say that. Lurker fights with passion and indignation, and not faked from the look of it. Again, both are things that scum can feel, but in general stronger emotion comes more often from town in my experience. (And yes, I say this knowing that I have used all of those traits as scum before, specifically because when they look/are real they are convincing.)
@Jey, why did you quit Mafia originally?
@Lurker, do you believe that there are any legitimate reasons for someone to scum read you currently?The other three that I'd like to focus on a bit more are Kabaz, Toastboy, and KJ. I feel reasonably confident that there is at least one scum in that grouping. To clarify before it's asked, not because of their interactions with each other, but because those three specifically stood out as curious when I did my isos.
@Kabaz, give me your strongest town read with reason(s), and the person you find most enigmatic and what you intend to do to figure them out.
@Toastboy....actually now that I reread your iso, I have no idea what I saw the first time, but let's pretend me from 3 hours ago isn't insane. Do you prefer one alignment over the other? Do you post more as one alignment over the other?Yes, I'm aware that I'm still not voting, I'm going to wait for responses to my questions first.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
oh look, I can do that too; what a stellar argument
Both of their "to the heart of things" questions is exactly what I'm NOT seeing from blues.
@Shadow: do you consider yourself good at making jokes?
@Vaimes: why the page 1 townread on Kabazame? What triggered that?
@Killjoy: why the townread on Latin and scumread on Rodemy page 1?
@Rodemy: how can it be “too early” for pressure? (post 53)
Town
EL
Lean town
Rodemy (first post claim)
Shadow (reaction to Kabazame’s RVS post feels forced. Breadcrumb seems real. Fight with EL seems tvt)
LnGrrrR
Null
Vaimes
Anaklusmos
Killjoy
Blues
Lean scum
Kabazame (refusing to RVS vote. Grills Study without voting.)
Jey K (goes on about nothing else than her username for too long. Pressure on EL for breaking RVS over-the-top. Very self-conscious.)
Scum
Pa Tennis (I don’t like the naked not random vote on Shadow at all. #107 feels off. Calling someone adorable seems to come from a scum mindset.)
Study Latin (#62 feels like he knows Tubba Fett is town. This question in #81 is bad: “@All, who reads EL vs. Shadow as T/T? S/T? Or vice-versa?” He makes a good post about EL and Shadow in #90, but tacks this on, which is bad: “I'll wait a little on top scumreads because I don't think everyone has posted in the thread yet iirc.”)
vote Pa Tennis
Not criticizing the choice, cuz voting your second-strongest scum-read is fine too; I'm just curious as to the reason.
@Shadow: #15 felt to me like you were trying too hard to br funny. Was that meant as funny?
Do you not like THAT I voted without giving reasoning? Or do you not like the reasoning I eventually gave?
Rodemy is attacking Killjoy, literally saying he must justify an opinion because it's unjustifiable. He is, by his own paramaters, putting Killjoy in an impossible position. Again, for saying the words "potential light scumread"
Shadow was probing for meaning in Eternal/Vaimes' posts while his own seemed crafted to have none. But both him and Eternal really seem to be at the same place from different directions. Where Shadow was random early on real solving seems to have steadily crept in, and really that's all Eternal seems to have been doing with yes serious but not super serious pushing he just doesn't think of it as random at all.
So, to answer your question @Latin:
I think that was likely a town v town argument with a fair helping of meta clash.
The post where you take two of my quotes side by side and make a comment about 'misinterpretation' doesn't make sense. Why would I move my vote from someone I strongly believe to be scum?
You also forget that I keep saying I understand how you could be considered town, but I know for a fact that being scum is faking it until you make it. I have no doubt you're 100% genuine but I can't shake the feeling that there's still something more going on back there along with the 'villain' attributes I get from your posts. If it weren't for that, I could be convinced you were town because I see where you're coming from.
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Okay, I don't have those bad feelings toward shadowlancerx from his most recent posts. I'll keep a close watch still, but for now he's good.
@shadowlancerx It made me laugh I should apologize to EL though since it accomplishes nothing but be a dick. Sorry!
...I've been laughing a lot this game. That's a good sign.
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Mostly null from Rhand so far.
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Pa Tennis I've re-read your latest post more times than I care to admit and I can't... tell what's going on? Does your first sentence have anything to do with the rest of the post? That's what's tripping me up.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
How many town games have you played? How many scum games have you played?
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
I don't like that you voted without reasoning and then had to be pushed into giving that reasoning.
@Jey: it bothers me that your name seemed to be the only thing worth discussing for you, not that you discussed it.
It's not that it was the only thing; I"m pretty sure I just had nothing else to add to whatever was going on at the time.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Could you possibly explain why you're seeing it as TvT from your perspective? Do you like EL's general response better than Shadow's push? Or are they more equal to you?
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Okay, I think I see where you're coming from better after mulling this over, and I think it might've been a playstyle clash. I can't remember the last time somebody found someone scummy for 'mimicking' another player's actions, but I could see this being possible or more common in F2F mafia, which is the meta you're coming from.
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Hmm. How do you feel about his current push on you? Are you drawing anything alignment indicative from his posts/position in the game?
This sounds like a very dubious townread. By extending a hand to Fett, it was not my intention to mislead him from forming his own conclusions, do you feel that I did this in my response to him? And if so, could you possibly point to something semantically that explains why you feel I did this with scum intentions?
I have never heard of 'possible pocketing' only pocketing and not pocketing.
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You seem to be doing something similar to Killjoy in which you're withholding reads of certain players, and/or simply not stating them. Could you possibly explain why?
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Ok, that's fair. I was looking for a possible take on why he feels to be waffling a bit with his read on me and putting up reasons as to why he's 'uncertain' about my alignment yet reads me town. It could possibly just take him time to do.
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Does me taking the game seriously have an influence on your "keystone" read of me?
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In my response to BE, I explain that was not my intent.
This I am having a bit of trouble with understanding. I have not picked up on Lurker having any Top-down perspectives thus far in the game, can you find any other instances where you think he does this? Also, how do you feel about Tennis not explaining all of his reads fully?
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I don't think everyone will agree to this.
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It's reasonable [from a town perspective] I'd say, but somewhat unsubstantial to form a read from imo. Rodemy wanting to draw that info into the thread could easily come from a townie who wants to challenge scumreads and interact with people, but it's all been done before by the multiple people who asked KJ to clarify.
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So, I take it EL is a top townread of yours, and you want to defend him, correct? What's lost in translation here is what about Jey's reasoning or approach to EL makes her scummy?
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Oh man, this is really weird how you narrarate your thoughts on players as the game is going. It's almost like a soliloquy. I can see why Shadow thought that one instance of you sounding like you were threatening to vote somebody sounded scummy. This will take some getting used to.
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I suppose it would be very time consuming to ask for more explanation on most of these. I am interested in knowing more about your townread on Rodemy, and Grr however. Could you explain why you think calling someone adorable is coming from a scum mindset? I can see it being condescending, but I don't think the word choice alone indicates scum. To dive right into the thick of your read on me, explain semantically where I exhibit the knowledge that Fett is town in that post. Not everyone needed to address my question, but I said it because it's a major event in the game thus far, and I would like to see people's opinions on it. You're right on that last note though, I was being kind of hypocritical by asking people to explain with-held reads and not giving my own top two scumreads, so I suppose I'll amend that.
---
Killjoy sits at Neutral to possible scum for me, and my vote was there to get him to engage people about his reads he gave but never explained, but by his response I'm guessing he'll do that eventually.
Unvote
I'm much more interested in hearing Rodemy respond to my questions about their vote on Jey. I didn't like that vote, it felt like a chainsaw defense of EL that I don't think was really necessary in regards to Jey. And Jey finding EL scummy is nothing new, it was only when they said to run-up EL and end the phase quick that Rodemy decided to vote Jey. At that time, why did Rodemy decide to vote them? Does his vote lay in qualms Rodemy has with Jey's approach to the game? Or just her EL scumread specifically?
Vote: Rodemy
I don't have much else in terms of scumreads.
I'll be honest, I have no idea what you're asking.
Probably the same way I feel toward myself as I'm not explaining any of my reads.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
And this.
I'm not hung up on it anymore, but people ask about it and I answer. That's typically what you do when someone asks you a question
Why does it matter if I haven't voted yet? It's a 2-week long day 1, what's the rush into voting? You guys are so reckless with your vote and it loses meaning every time you vote someone for the smallest offense
That last quote "I guess you mean me" was because he completely spelled my name wrong, so idk what you're talking about with that!
Rodemy wasn't remotely Town-reading me, but that form of rush-to-lynch is scummy, and the reason for it ("we can't let him lead lynches") is scummy. I still don't think JeY K is scum, but Rodemy certainly doesn't have to Town-read me to find that post super scummy.
I mean, I've done the same for my Town-reads (on you and recently on shadow). I'm communicative. There's rarely a purpose to holding back information unless it's role-related.
For the record, I can understand why Rhand had a problem with that, but I don't. If you'd said your top Mafia-reads and withheld your top Town-reads, then I'd have an issue regardless of the context, but in context talking about Town-reads while not discussing Mafia-reads was fine. Scum's less likely to lock off potential mislynch targets that early without at least offering other possible targets in exchange.
Addressed this three paragraphs up, but I gotta say...chainsaw defense of me? I don't think Rodemy's even remotely on my side right now.
I mean, I'm fine with you scum-reading Rodemy and all, since I am too, but I strongly disagree with your reason for doing so. Rodemy's distaste for that post looked genuine and was reasonable.
Mafia is all about communication; that's the Town's only reliable source of information. Voting is a form of communication. Going this long without a vote is essentially telling Town that you don't consider anyone to be scummy, which is extremely odd at this point in the game.
Pa Tennis - I like the effort going back and digging up that Rodemy post. Good points without posting an entire Great Wall of China to make them. Pretty much laughed in EL's face when he voted him which was tells me he's not worried. Scum is usually not dumb enough to vote and not explain it, they are usually more calculated in how they play
EL - The loud abrasive guy is like never scum but always gets lynched anyway. Classic TvT fight with Shadowlancer, as others have said. Bolding a bunch of words in his posts draws a lot of attention which is not usually what scum wants to do. It's easy to skim through the walls but he drew me in with the bold.
Shadowlancer - Looks like a TvT with Lurker, but less sold on him
Anak - he made a good point on Lngr being making that vote as scum and being able to adjust his motives based on the situation. Overall hasn't done much though but leaning town
Leaning scum:
Latin - too paranoid about every vote or criticism of him. Asking people to "explain semantically" what they don't like all the time is like he's trying to figure out how exactly to not look scummy.
Jey k - tunneling EL too hard and I don't really like her reasons for it. I don't understand at all why she thinks he has "inside info" and that feels made up. P.S. sorry for calling you a guy earlier
Zionite - barely shows up and posts nothing much when he does. I think he has like 2 posts
We have a lot of people who are not voting. Shadow and Grr are two names who stick out. Vaimes is V/la, Fett is new, and Kabazame is newish? Killjoy is inactive. I bring this up because I feel there's enough AI content for everyone to be voting someone, whoever that person may be, at this stage in the game.
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Fair enough, I can follow.
I must've missed where Rodemy was scumreading you. This vote makes even less sense now. The want to lynch you that badly from Jey struck me as irony because ending the day this soon is not only a horrible idea it's also really suboptimal play for town.
I can feel the playstyle clashes rising left and right. Not for me, speficially.
Addressed this three paragraphs up, but I gotta say...chainsaw defense of me? I don't think Rodemy's even remotely on my side right now.
I mean, I'm fine with you scum-reading Rodemy and all, since I am too, but I strongly disagree with your reason for doing so. Rodemy's distaste for that post looked genuine and was reasonable.[/quote]He voted Pa Tennis, and you voted Pa Tennis previously. Maybe you guys aren't so different in terms of veiw on the game?
Unofficial VC for me to gather some thoughts.
We have a lot of people who are not voting. Shadow and Grr are two names who stick out. Vaimes is V/la, Fett is new, and Kabazame is newish? Killjoy is inactive. I bring this up because I feel there's enough AI content for everyone to be voting someone, whoever that person may be, at this stage in the game.
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Fair enough, I can follow.
I must've missed where Rodemy was scumreading you. This vote makes even less sense now. The want to lynch you that badly from Jey struck me as irony because ending the day this soon is not only a horrible idea it's also really suboptimal play for town.
I can feel the playstyle clashes rising left and right. Not for me, speficially.
He voted Pa Tennis, and you voted Pa Tennis previously. Maybe you guys aren't so different in terms of veiw on the game?
Oh man, this is normally one of the things I pounce on scum for doing; dumb of me to miss that here. I'm still Town-reading Latin overall, as the line between "explain yourself because I disagree" and "explain yourself so I can change my behavior to become a Town-read for you" is sometimes hard to find. But I'll definitely keep a better eye out for that from Latin in future. This also makes me even more unhappy with BluesEclipse's apparent mimicry of Latin's question-wall style for Blues' debut post.
Yeah, I'm quite tired of this too. Vote: Zionite
Let's see if my "summon Zionite" button is still working.
@Latin: regarding voting atm, I know, I should be voting, but I keep coming back to wanting to vote EL but I don't think that will be helpful. I'll probably build a TS list and go from there, I've got less than half of the game placed, and I that's not indicative of the activity in game so far.
I disagree honestly. You can communicate without voting. Throwing your vote around carelessly means no one will care when you vote them because you're bound to just switch to someone else soon enough. Like the boy who cried wolf. Also if you vote someone you pretty much tell them exactly what they're doing wrong which makes it pretty easy for them to change their style, so it's better to have a large sample size of posts before that so you have more to work with.
I'm a very patient player. I'm stingy with my vote and I don't lay out all my scum reads in the topic, because scum can see that and change their play around it. I prod, I set little traps, and I observe, and when the time is right I pounce like a jungle cat. That's just how I play (as either alignment honestly) and if we play together more often you'll notice it.
BTW, I don't mean to make excuses, but I typically play with 48 hour days so this 2 week thing is really stopping me from having any sense of urgency. lol
EternalLurker v. Latin
Here is the initial back-and-forth between Lurker and Latin. Latin asks who we all think has the best scumgame here, which Lurker thinks that Latin's specificly looking for the best scum is scummy because Latin 'wants to focus on that player for fear that they could fly under the radar'. Basically he is saying that Latin is going to jump on the best scum player regardless of alignment. Obviously this is unlikely to actually happen, but it shows a thought process. He had a thought, and is pressuring based on it.
Here's Latin's response to it. I took note on the lack of defensiveness in it. The tone is entirely clarifiying.
So here is another of Lurker's responses. It's a little odd, now that I'm reading it more closely.He cites Latin for being defensive, even though he wasn't. And while he was pointing out that it was a bad idea, he only voted because it was RVS.Huh.
Here is Latin's response to that post. Again, no defensiveness. He keeps a cool head and explains the situation.
Actually, Lurker's response to Shadow here is odd because he is hesitant to switch what he admits is a random vote to someone he actually thinks is scummy because he doesn't usually random vote... because he random voted him earlier? That actually makes no sense.
And now he's putting a scumread on hold because... someone thinks Latin might be town? This only makes sense for one reason (tunneling) which he doesn't seem to be doing.
And this post seems... IDK. Uncommon behavior=scummy behavior because rand chance for scum is less?
Huh. Maybe I was wrong about Lurker. I'll have to do a more in-depth look at him when I have more free time.
My original thoughts were that I liked his tone/language. I could see his thoughts in his posting style. I apperently just never looked too deeply into them. Blah.
But Latin is def likely town I think.
re: RodemyThat was literally just a hunch, so I said I was lightly scumreading him to see how he'd react. He's being very defensive.
Hey Pa, why'd you edit Lurker's quote?
Its part of the same thought. I must not be explaining it well. The double standard is that rodemy is making Killjoy explain a read while his own posts were just meaningless.
@rhand
That will likely happen again. I vote when I vote, I explain when I explain.
@Latin
Keystone read doesn't mean much for my actual read of you. It's more about getting reads on other players based on how they approach you. It's just a prediction, and is a long time from coming to fruition anyway. Feel free to ask about that again day 3 or so.
And I'm not actively withholding. See answer to rhand above, and also note that I'm still figuring out how exactly this site meta works. I'm realistically already going more in depth than I'd really prefer. Kinda think I like the accountability that seemingly comes with more time but it's pretty inconsistent, at least early on.
Kabazame I continue to sympathize with. I think he's probably still town for doing his own thing/how he's approaching the change in playstyle or whatever of a new site/phaselength.
Hey Pa answer this please.
If so... because that's the part I was answering.
Weird question.
Okay so this makes more sense after reading the post before.
unvote
I know this is late. But what is pocketing?
Toastboy's 145 stuck me as odd that he votes Kabazame but doesn't really elaborate, goes back to talking about Study Latin. But when I react with an "oh boy", I really want to rant about it. Why didn't you here?
Kabazame's 175 seems to restate what others have said before. Why is not posting = scum? The most scum even.
And then we come back to EL again in , who doesn't know when to stop posting. You aren't going to bully me into doing anything. Better players have tried and failed. However I will explain why I feel this way since you're feeling so chatty.
When I first started playing mafia, I constantly incriminated myself as town, Day 1. Sometimes I'd be the hugest distraction and red herring, again as town. I tried lynching the host once just to see what'd happen (and failed). My first games were terrible for my team because they couldn't focus; I was hogging the spotlight with inane chatter that didn't matter. But what I learned from these games is that there's a time to speak, and a time to let others speak. I don't assume I'm going to have the game solved on page one. I speak up when I have something to say. I'll push hard when I need to make a move. This is all I can do as a player and I'll use that to my advantage when I can.
So did you have a specific question to ask, or are you just trying to blow smoke?
Sitting around and analyzing can be very useful for a Townie to do. But it's also a ridiculously easy way for Mafia to hide. And we have no way of knowing you're not the latter when you don't interact enough to give us any chance whatsoever to read you. So, no, your excuse means nothing to me. Claiming that you'll "speak up when [you] have something to say" is pretty silly when you've repeatedly shown that you do have things to say whenever you're summoned by people pointing out your attempts to hide, as long as you also get to accompany your statements with false indignation at the oh-so-crazy idea that anyone would be upset by your complete lack of readable interactions.
On Day One, chances are good Town will mis-lynch someone. But if that person then flips as a Townie, the rest of the Town will know to go back and reread his/her remarks and interactions for clues, so the lynch won't have been a total waste. Mis-lynching someone who's had no contributions or interactions all Day would be a total waste, because Town would get no information out of that. So lynching lurkers is very low-reward and thus rarely done, which means that allowing lurkers to exist creates a meta in which Mafia can easily hide by contributing nothing all Day. And that would be a completely Mafia-sided meta.
Unless you want to promote a Mafia-sided meta, lurking isn't an option.
And it's really ******* disingenuous to claim that I've made any indications of "having the game solved on page one", or even now by page four. My reads of people have constantly shifted, sometimes due to my rereads of posts, often due to other people bringing up points that I then considered. Even a cursory skim of the thread proves that statement to be totally baseless shade.
So, welcome back to the game, and it'd be nice if you'd actually stick around this time. When you specifically express regret at missing RVS, which is all about interaction, you don't have much of a leg on which to stand in trying to avoid interaction at this stage. That just makes it look like you want to have the false interaction of RVS to pretend to be here, but don't wanna actually have to commit to saying anything that can be used against you once the game gets serious.
anywho, back to Vote: BluesEclipse since the magical summon-Zionite button unsurprisingly worked yet again
(Also, your reaction to Toastboy's post #145 is nonsensical. He was talking about Kabazame throughout that entire subsequent paragraph. Kabazame was the one allegedly "hung up on Latin's posting style" and Toastboy was calling him out for it.)
Missed this earlier. First of all, I don't like the random shot at me with nothing explaining what you're talking about. I hadn't even posted since you reacted to my most recent post, so I don't know why you said this randomly. Doesn't look good, especially with Toast and Rhand posting their suspicious of me in the meantime... it looks like you might just be prepping to jump on the train if it starts!
To answer your question, I lost count. A lot of games each, in several communities and in two languages! So I have seen a lot of different playstyles
Kabazame, you'll see in an earlier post that toastboy prompted me to re-read you when I could, so it's not as random as you think.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
I'm confused by the sudden change of heart regarding EL. It kinda seems like no one else got on board with lynching and now you're back pedalling?
I don't buy " it was a hunch" I don't get defensive as scum. I normally get dismissive tbh.
But that is neither here nor there.
Quick read time. Brb
I think I explained that there's no way you could gather this idea but as someone who's spent a lot of time observing people, the way EternalLurker writes his posts gives me this vibe. There is nothing concrete to base this on that I'm aware of :\
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@Pa Tennis Thank you for elaborating, sorry I can't help you there. Rodemy is just crazy.
@Tubba Fett Nowhere did I say I changed my mind about him, I stated an observation about his posts seeming better. Just becuase he's scum doesn't mean he can't make good posts.
I like Zionite's recent posts.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
You saying it doesn't happen much just feels like you are trying to justify any mislynches that occur and chalking it up to "it's just d1"
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@Shadow, how do you read Killjoy's 181?
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I fear that as the game progresses it could become increasingly hard if some players keep their cards as close to their chests as they are doing now.
Ok, I guess I'll take your word for it.
How do feel about toast's vote on Kabazame then?
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Why the sudden change? That was a very short-lived push, and there are many questions left unanswered. Could you possibly revisit my questions in #169?
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That is not how I read that post at all. What exactly are you talking about? He mentions a neutral read briefly on me and focuses quite a bit on why he think's Kabazame's tone and approach could be coming from scum. He pulls up posts Kabazame made interacting with me, but doesn't focus on me after his vote, and actually does elaborate on his read.
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Why's that?
Statements like these don't exactly hold merit if there's nothing backing them up.
Zionite's post #188 is split into paragraphs that, in order, serve the following purposes:
1) attacking a post that rightfully calls him out for lurking
2) misreading a post
3) attacking a post that rightfully calls him out for lurking
4) attacking a post that rightfully calls him out for lurking
5) rationalizing his lurking with the excuse that he doesn't want to be lynched (meaning he's worried that speaking up at all will cause him to sound scummy)
6) claiming that people need to have specific questions in order to interact with him, even though he hasn't given us enough interaction to have any questions for him
That was about as content-less as it's possible for a post to be, while still bordering on a scum-tell in #5. What reason other than your "gut feelings" do you have to like this?
1) You were being defensive. Asking aggressively and being defensive are not mutually exclusive.
2) I don't generally use meta as my memory tends to be untrustworthy at times.
3) Self meta isn't useful even if I did. You're aware you do it, so therefore you can fake it.
Family wanted to visit Prague, so here we are. I will try to keep up, but being on vacation I have less time for online stuff than I would at work, strangely enough.
@Shadow, could you explain what you meant when you said, "You are so sure I am town"... when talking about chainsawing? The way you worded that doesnt't make sense to me, as you are implying he is scum, but also implying he wouldn't know if you were town or not. Both of those can't be true.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Vote Kabazame
Put your vote somewhere. Also, for someone relatively active (and not a noob IIRC), the only hunting I have seen you do is to qiestion Latin on his word choice, which is an easy thing to go back on later. While I am not great at it, I have seen vote analysis work wonders in the hands of players like Rhand. (Rhand, you're town this game, right? Please and thanks.)
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@KJ: Why focus on Lurker vs Latin here out of all of Lurker's interactions?
I am not getting any sort of TvT feel from Jey vs Lurker here, and would not be surprised if one of them was scum. That being said, certain things from each have pinged me as townie; Jey specifically talking about laughing and enjoying the game has a feel of being genuine, and while scum are perfectly capable of being genuine, I'm not sure they would think to say that. Lurker fights with passion and indignation, and not faked from the look of it. Again, both are things that scum can feel, but in general stronger emotion comes more often from town in my experience. (And yes, I say this knowing that I have used all of those traits as scum before, specifically because when they look/are real they are convincing.)
@Jey, why did you quit Mafia originally?
@Lurker, do you believe that there are any legitimate reasons for someone to scum read you currently?
The other three that I'd like to focus on a bit more are Kabaz, Toastboy, and KJ. I feel reasonably confident that there is at least one scum in that grouping. To clarify before it's asked, not because of their interactions with each other, but because those three specifically stood out as curious when I did my isos.
@Kabaz, give me your strongest town read with reason(s), and the person you find most enigmatic and what you intend to do to figure them out.
@Toastboy....actually now that I reread your iso, I have no idea what I saw the first time, but let's pretend me from 3 hours ago isn't insane. Do you prefer one alignment over the other? Do you post more as one alignment over the other?
Yes, I'm aware that I'm still not voting, I'm going to wait for responses to my questions first.