Hi all, glad to be here, but I have to warn that I don't have a ton of time right now, so my contributions may be a little light to begin with. I'll work on reading the thread and posting as I can, but I will be completely AFK from Friday afternoon to probably Monday morning. I'm aware that a deadline is coming up, so I'll try to get caught up before the weekend, but...that might be difficult. So, sorry in advance.
On a tangentially related note, I am in need of TWO replacements in my game, Silence of the Lambs. One for AtheistGod and one for EternalLurker. The game is on Day 4, just over 2300 posts. If anyone's interested, please PM me.
@Tubba: I guess it wasn't a bad vote if no one else cares about it.
@Toast: I don't care if kabazame is viable. I'm stating reads. Why would I take into account possible wagons?
Kabazame's play has been pretty underwhelming. Just restating the same opinions and not supporting them with new evidence when there should be. He's also making little attempt to convince anyone to vote his way, content to have a dead vote.
To your second question, again, I don't consider what wagon is available. By the last vote count it looks like there aren't any wagons anyway. But players have asked for more stream of consciousness from me, so here we are.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Toast: I specifically thought Grapefruit was town because of the self vote. But I have seen too many self votes and I'm not interested in them becoming more prevalent than they already are. If you're going to find it scummy, go nuts, but don't misconstrue it as something it was t.
For a start, this doesn't really respond to my point. I acknowledged that you probably read him as town, which you later clarified. My point rested much more on the fact that it was a strange thing to fly off the handle about in my book, which read as over-justified given you were prepared to lynch him earlier on D1 to avoid a no-lynch.
Ah, I understand now, so context: I've played in like 4-5 games in a row where some townie has self voted, and I'm done being okay with it.
Quote from Toast »
You also didn't respond to my point about your reads on Tubba:
The only thing he's really done today is vote Tubba without much explanation, saying he's following a read from D1. His last vote before Grapefruit was on Zionite #464. He did vote Tubba in #339 but didn't do much about it. The rest of his posts that day mostly seem to be talking about options to avoid a mislynch – Zionite and Grapefruit. Any further posts about Tubba were pretty weak questions. He curiously didn't mention JeyK or Kabazame, the other slightly viable wagons at the time. This clashes with his apparent town-driven motivations of avoiding a no-lynch despite believing Grapefruit was probably town.
No...were you expecting me to?
Quote from Toast »
Can you please post a list of reads? I am concerned by how little concrete opinions you have posted.
sure, probably a bit later today, I haven't updated it since end of day yesterday so I'll go through it.
@Shadow I am not feeling him for scum, but he hasn't given me town vibes either. He was sitting in my watch and evaluate later pile. Going to be reading more in depth on him now, I don't like being this null on him
@tubba/toast
First Killjoy vote was for wagons. I'm still townreading the entire rest of the grapefruit wagon. Some more than others, but positive on all of them.
Revoted because of his proposed scumteam that's half of my town block. Also it feels like he was just pushing me without really reading my posts and then backed off when it didn't get traction. Reason for backoff wasn't bad per se, but it was pretty easy. Haven't liked his questions. Etc.
Anak is like the opposite of that thing where you look at the postcount and go "holy ***** how does _____ have 150 posts I barely remember them" and they're totally scum because they're just saying stuff without it having an impact. Anak has 13 posts right now. Feels like way more. That said I liked him better day 1.
I still think it was mostly town on the lynch. GF gave us very good reasons to lynch him and it happened. I thought everyone who voted had good reasoning, or at least didn't feel like a scum vote. Most of the votes on him were people I was town reading regardless, other than Killjoy but I've liked his content today.
I did reread but I'm still feeling Jey and Zionite as scum just like yesterDay, so it didn't really change much. I feel like I want more from Rodemy though, and Latin seems to be coasting a bit now that almost everyone is town reading him. He might just be busy but I feel like his drop off in activity from D1 to D2 is staggering.
I lost some confidence with the GF flip and realizing Toast is likely town, so I doubted my reads but in the end I still think Zion/Jey are scum.
[quote from="Zionite »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/780342-low-fantasy-mafia-day-2-no-solution-for-practical?comment=656"]I agree Jey K should talk about something else. She's mostly talked about EL (weak arguments as well imo) and calling every back-and-forth bussing. Seems like she's trying to keep her options open... not many town reads either.
I never called EL vs Pa Tennis or LnGrrrR bussing, so that's wrong. And every back and forth as in everyone debating ever? Or specifically with EL, because if you increase the scope you're undeniably wrong and possibly you stopped reading after D1.
Keeping my options open? What options am I keeping open? I've been pushing one lynch I strongly believe in, and most of 'I don't have a confident read's list are people who have come under scrutiny lately that I wanted to examine further.
If this isn't someone blatantly trying to push a mislynch I don't know what is.
</blockquote>
You called me vs grapefruit a double bus (not involving EL) It's pretty convenient that you decided the two leading wagons (both town) were bussing each other and made it very easy for you to jump onto either of them.
When asked for a reads list, you quoted yourself saying everyone is scum which is pretty much the definition of keeping your options open... like you could literally jump on the easiest lynch whenever one takes off because you basically call everyone scum
It was a poke. I'm interested in how JeY reacts to it. At this point, I'm pretty well locked onto her alignment. Now, I need interaction to help make the case for a lynch to others. If I can't hunt scum and try to get them lynched, and I can't sit back and not post about anything, and I can't question why someone is voting someone else with no background, what am I supposed to do?
I summarized this yesterday, but the man is still new town, very confident on my read here.
You really don't see the mindset disconnect? He is sure of her alignment, but wants to see her reaction? And he straw mans again; no one is telling him he can't scum hunt or question or anything. I suspect him for his methods, not because he's "scum hunting".
I don't really get what you're going for here. He made it pretty clear why he did it. No matter how locked into his read he his he can't lynch someone by himself, so he's try to get her to react in a way that will make others see what he sees. So I'm not really sure why it's a problem that he's trying to bolster his case on his scum read.
No. Tired posting is bad posting. I'll do it TOMORROW after work. I'm off Saturday. I won't have to get up early. No stress from rushing to get this done before work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@JeyK, if you're town, know that you're just not gonna get EL lynched toDay.
Okay, what? How do you vote me and then make that statement in the same ******* post? Are you just admitting that your vote is a complete waste? Cuz that's terrible.
I concur with El, that statement is somewhat baffling.
@EL, I wanted to make sure I had your attention. Mission successful.
Seems like a roundabout way of doing it.
That extrapolation is a pretty obvious one to make. Here, let me break it down SAT style
More info = Bad for scum, then less info = ???
It's not too hard to extrapolate that if you claim (rightfully) that scum killing a lurker is good because it provides info, then scum killing someone who has posted a TON is LESS GOOD.
Trying to tie that revelation to some "scumslip" is reaching. Like... tiny man trying to pet a tall giraffe on the head reaching.
And WAITASEC, since WHEN did you decide trying to tie pre scum flip associations is scummy? Because I called YOU out for that earlier D1, ya know, the post JeY agreed with me on?
The only person I think I've tied scumflips to is JeY K, and I've already explained the reason (her bringing up her fear of bussing relatively unforced, which led me to believe she was subconsciously thinking about bussing). Also, upon rereading her before the end of D1, she did this weird, "Shadow is scummy but I won't say why" on multiple posts, which had my scumdar pinging.
Your logic toDay does not make sense to me. I don't see the link between Shadow and Jey, nor do I see why you're finding lurker scummy. Nor does it make sense that you're scumreading both Jey and and EL, two individuals who have staunchly opposed each other for a good portion of the game.
@latin I think Killjoy has avoided interacting with most everyone. I know he's not much of a realtime player normally, but yeah.
Hmm.
As for what I think of Killjoy's Anak stuff... I think Anak is town and I'm currently voting Killjoy.
Could you go in-depth on your TR on Anak a bit more? **Nvm after reading #676
I'd also like to note here that he asked me to explain my townreads and I sarcastically linked him to my own iso and he thought I was linking to a particular post of townreads and then... never clicked it to check I guess and just backed off me.
That could be indicative, yet that could also be a misunderstanding. Killjoy would have to confirm or deny that.
KJs vote and reasoning for me are still bad though. It feels much more like he saw an easy mislynch Target in me and tried to rationalize it than genuinely believing the things he said about me and the wagon analysis
Vote: Killjoy
Could you possibly outline this thought process a bit more? It would be helpful to see textual support for finding Killjoy scummy semantically.
LnGrrrR and JeY, however, clearly don't care about facts and logic.
Does anyone agree with this?
It's most likely a result of how different your playstyle is compared to his.
Grr on the other hand did, indeed, make a mistake in their logic some time ago, and that kind of snowballed.
Also, for the record, I was only slightly scum leaning on Grapefruit, willing to lynch him over a no lynch but much preferred other lynches, and when he self voted I was pretty sure he was town. I hammered for exactly the reasons I said, and I recognize that doing so prevented discussion on the subject. I stand by it, and would do it again.
Could you possibly bring up those reasons once more?
Unvote Vote Grapefruit
I'm sick and town of town self voting out of frustration.
I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IT.
If you're town, which I can't help but think is the case with that self vote, then shame on you, but I'm don't with it, and I will be policy voting anyone who self votes in any scenario that is not LyLo from here on out. Townies continuing to do this is going to make it an okay scum tactic and I'm not going to stand for it.
@Pa, sorry if I missed it, but what's your opinion on Shadow's hammer here?
Quote from Study Latin »
Why was [Tubba] your strongest scumread yesterday? Could you possibly revisit your thoughts on him? I also did not pick up on his entrance consisting of "throwing shade" nor any strong defense of KJ.
Because he looked and acted like awkward scum. His attempt at looking townie felt like an act to me, and he's not really done anything that looks genuinely townie since.
And his opening post of the today was basically "Hey Jey, Rhand called you scum, did you kill him for it?" It's a false dichotomy based on NK analysis.
I would not expect a new player to realize that Night Kill analysis is wifom. Honestly, that makes him only more towny in my eyes.
@Shadow
If by throwing shade, you mean pointing out that the nightkill was actively pushing against someone that I'm strongly scum reading, then yeah, I'm throwing all sorts of shade. All I'm getting from you is that you don't like me scum reading JeY, why?
This is a legitimately townie response to tack along with the questions I posed above, and Tubba continues to prove himself as one of my strong townreads.
Feels more like displacing my read of him, strawman-ing my argument, and a hint of cftwr. I don't care about his read of Jey. I care about how he approaches reads, and shading people is scummy regardless of how scummy or townie the recipient is.
It doesn't feel like that at all, Tubba is confrontational about his reads, a sign that he believes strongly in them. It gives off confidence I'd likely see from town; definitely not scum talking themselves into a corner. You hadn't really explained your argument fully until earlier in this post, so this kind of reaction seems natural to me. You've lost me on what 'cftwr' is.
It was a poke. I'm interested in how JeY reacts to it. At this point, I'm pretty well locked onto her alignment. Now, I need interaction to help make the case for a lynch to others. If I can't hunt scum and try to get them lynched, and I can't sit back and not post about anything, and I can't question why someone is voting someone else with no background, what am I supposed to do?
I summarized this yesterday, but the man is still new town, very confident on my read here.
You really don't see the mindset disconnect? He is sure of her alignment, but wants to see her reaction? And he straw mans again; no one is telling him he can't scum hunt or question or anything. I suspect him for his methods, not because he's "scum hunting".
Looks like a bump a new-player would come across. I found it townie because he's actually taking a stance on a player and trying to get them pushed with confidence, it doesn't come across as false certainty.
And also, in light of this post,
I read this and realised it could apply to me as well. By focusing on JeY, I've been ignoring other players.
I'm not moving my vote for previously stated reasons, but I am going to pull back and look over things to see what else is going on.
And you are my scummiest read, and I've given reasons, your early post to Zionite looked really like forcing interaction (specifically with a scumbuddy), and you're throwing shade.
This doesn't feel real to me.
Also, does this imply you're reading Zionite as scum as well?
It is so I don't know what to tell you. And it doesn't imply it, I've openly said it. Granted, my read on Zionite today is not nearly confident enough to just chain lynch him of Tubba flips town, I'd dig way into him and make sure.
@StudyLatin, if you had read my previous posts, I explained my reasoning, but I will do so again. The reason I thought JeY was bussing was because I thought she was thinking about it and posted subconsciously about that "possibility". The back and forth yesterday felt like distancing to me. JeY wasn't providing "real" reasons for her attack on El, letting her backpedal somewhat easily. I don't think they're a pair after this fight though. JeY and Kaba? Maaaybe. *shrug*
Re Shadow and JeY, even more so than El, JeY continually calls Shadow scummy Day 1 but refuses to give any reason. One time she even says, "I don't know but I'm sure I"ll find something" (paraphrasing).
Oy, I have NOT made very much progress, I'm afraid. I will do what I can over the weekend, but I certainly won't be able to do anything until Saturday evening at the earliest. And it may be Monday. Sorry.
@StudyLatin, if you had read my previous posts, I explained my reasoning, but I will do so again. The reason I thought JeY was bussing was because I thought she was thinking about it and posted subconsciously about that "possibility". The back and forth yesterday felt like distancing to me. JeY wasn't providing "real" reasons for her attack on El, letting her backpedal somewhat easily. I don't think they're a pair after this fight though. JeY and Kaba? Maaaybe. *shrug*
Re Shadow and JeY, even more so than El, JeY continually calls Shadow scummy Day 1 but refuses to give any reason. One time she even says, "I don't know but I'm sure I"ll find something" (paraphrasing).
I did read your posts. I don't exactly buy into subconscious tells.
Many people are dropping the ball when it comes to reading Jey's play this game causally imo.
@Vaimes, the main case against her from my viewpoint is that she hasn't really made a case against anyone. She started D1 by excusing her own lack of pushing (saying something like, "My reads are right but I can never convince others"). And as I noted, her weird interactions with Shadow D1, combined with Shadow's quick hammer, made me think they were a team at the start of D2. It felt like her tunneling of EL, combined with the "can't push" excuse, was a way to talk alot but not really say anything, while still trying to take credit if EL flipped scum. Her (It is why I thought the two could be scum together, but I am much less sure of that after this Day. The last fight seemed genuine.)
So you think kaba's vote was better reasoned and less confident therefore harder to walk back?
Ehhhhh...
Anak said something about faking the confidence because he gets lynched for being all wishy washy or something and it kinda makes sense. Even makes him more likely to apologize about being wrong about it maybe?
Though yeah the apology is a little weird. I'm not sorry at all. He was scummy and we lynched him.
No, I'm saying that Anak's confidence is excessive in contrast to Kaba's (or really anyone's) regular amount of confidence.
Part of my problem with Anak is he's one of the few people I actually kinda remember the playstyle of. When he's town, it's usually not that hard to tell.
My personal experiance with him is that when he's town, even being wishywashy... he's honest. I can kinda see his thinking... transparently. This game he feels less transparent than I'm used to him being.
But his overconfidence and the subsequent apology is him trying to LOOK transparent. There's another layer here. Does that make sense?
1: Yes, I was implying that Shadow voted me because I'm scum reading JeY.
2: Shadow has called me his scummiest read, without really offering any reasons.
3: I can't really speak to whether my play style has changed, nor to any reasons why it may have. I will say that I feel more comfortable with my understanding of the game and trying to figure things out.
Ok. Next question: Ok. So you think Shadow voted you because you scumread Jey. Is Shadow doing this to others as well?
-------
So Tubba and Anak are probably scum. Maybe with Vaimes... and... Toast perhaps? IDK that last slot is in the air right now.
I'm beginning to doubt my scumread on Pa because I feel like I'm scumreading him for being tom, which I don't think I've ever been right about.
As far as I can tell, no, Shadow only seems to be reacting that way to me. He offered up my "forced interaction" with Zionite as his reasoning for scumreading me, I'm not really sure how that was alignment indicative by calling out someone I perceived to be "lurking" but there it is. He also takes exception to my "throwing shade", but again I'm having a hard time understanding that reasoning. If I perceive someone to be scum, I'm going to push and prod that player into action.
I've previously admitted I could be wrong about JeY, but nobody seems to offer anything of substance on why my scumread is wrong. Until then I'm going to keep pushing her.
My point here is, if shadow is up your ass for hating jey, then he's likely also doing that to other people.
Sure. I'll just sum up the whole of my issue with Tubba.
Tubba, on D1, was overly cautious. Like, more than people, even new players.
D2, (noteably... after scum!Tubba would have gotten a chance to talk to his team) he's making crazy bold claims (like accusing shadow of scumreading him for disliking his buddy jey). It's a huge contrast that seems unnatural.
This is a very good example of a loaded question, and people accused me of leading Tubba earlier in the game.
It's not a loaded question. I don't really see why you think it is.
Why is "people accusing you of leading Tubba" relevent to this post?
You could have asked me the same question yesterday. I don't understand how this could lead to anything alignment indicative.
It can be. But I'd like Vaimes to answer before I explain it.
This is very incoherent, could you possibly explain more?
I don't think I've EVER been right about Pa Tennis's player's alignment in any game I've played with him. I can't remember ever being right anyway. I frequently scumread him for his playstyle. I fear that I'm doing it this time.
@latin I think Killjoy has avoided interacting with most everyone. I know he's not much of a realtime player normally, but yeah.
As for what I think of Killjoy's Anak stuff... I think Anak is town and I'm currently voting Killjoy.
I'd also like to note here that he asked me to explain my townreads and I sarcastically linked him to my own iso and he thought I was linking to a particular post of townreads and then... never clicked it to check I guess and just backed off me.
I think there have been very few games where I have interacted with everyone, or even most people in the early game. I tend to focus on people I have strong reads on to make sure they're accurate.
@Anak, why apologize though? Obviously a lot of people got it wrong as he did get lynched.
Because I felt bad and responsible for getting his wagon going? Despite what EL says, I feel like I was the one who really started that ball rolling. Sure it may be silly to think that, but I did. I am who I am, and sometimes I get too empathetic about these things.
KJs vote and reasoning for me are still bad though. It feels much more like he saw an easy mislynch Target in me and tried to rationalize it than genuinely believing the things he said about me and the wagon analysis
Vote: Killjoy
Ok. Back it up. show that I don't beleive what I'm saying.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Killjoy
I feel I've explained my posts early day two already, but I'll try and give a little more. I had a slight scum lean on grape, but nothing that felt as concrete to me as my read of JeY. When grape flipped town I felt foolish for not pushing harder. Rhand's last post speaking to JeY's scummy behaviour and his death shortly thereafter seemed like a pretty big deal to me, (I'm not sure what wifom means). In hindsight, rhand could've been killed after that statement to MAKE JeY look guilty. In short I felt JeY was getting away with it and I needed to push her on it right away.
I felt like Shadow was all over me and couldn't really understand why, note in my previous read list that he felt scummy by association with JeY. Coupling that with his repeated attacks on me for things I don't feel are alignment indicative, gave me the feeling that they were partnered.
scumShadow doesn't need to jump up the ass of everyone that doesn't like JeY, he just needs to muddy the waters around the situation.
@latin: I'm on my phone so I can't crtl+F anything. Could you give me the highlights?
@Toast: I was totally on board with lynching Kabazame on Day 1. But my town read got hammered instead. I wasn't even on the grape wagon and kabazame was one of the ones saying me and Grape are scum buddies. Like what?
I'm trying to be flexible on JeY/EL because I can be wrong. And like you said there are deadlines. I'm not gonna be one of these stubborn voters (JeY, Kabazame) who don't change their opinion the whole game.
LnGrrrR finally sums up what is weird about JeY, JeY was hiding in the "I can't make pushes" statement against EL. This is kinda the thing I was asking for. Anyone else care to comment?
@Toast I think you're a good enough player to realize why my read on you changed between D1 and D2. I really don't want to have to spell this out.
As for Jey, I'm pretty sure she's scum but I was also pretty sure grapefruit was scum, so I'm going back and forth because I'm not all that confident atm
Sorry for the general lack of engagement day 2, I've been busy moving and stuff. I did say though that I liked Killjoy's posts today, because his thought process seems townie and like he's really trying to figure out the game. I think Rodemy is coasting a bit, and Study Latin was too until recently. I also said I like LnGrrR as town based on his posts today when EL started trying to push him. So I have adjusted my reads based on what has happened today
Town - Anak, Toast, Pa Tennis
Lean Town - LnGrrR, Latin, Vaimes, Killjoy, Shadow
Null - Cantrip, Tubba
Lean scum - Rodemy
Scum - Zion, Jey
what are you talking about? I voted GF yesterday and he got lynched, why would I change it? I already said I would be willing to change to Jey if your wagon doesn't take off but it's still early
I would vote Zion, Jey, or Rodemy. Not really feeling scum on anyone else right now
@Toast I think you're a good enough player to realize why my read on you changed between D1 and D2. I really don't want to have to spell this out.
As for Jey, I'm pretty sure she's scum but I was also pretty sure grapefruit was scum, so I'm going back and forth because I'm not all that confident atm
Sorry for the general lack of engagement day 2, I've been busy moving and stuff. I did say though that I liked Killjoy's posts today, because his thought process seems townie and like he's really trying to figure out the game. I think Rodemy is coasting a bit, and Study Latin was too until recently. I also said I like LnGrrR as town based on his posts today when EL started trying to push him. So I have adjusted my reads based on what has happened today
Town - Anak, Toast, Pa Tennis
Lean Town - LnGrrR, Latin, Vaimes, Killjoy, Shadow
Null - Cantrip, Tubba
Lean scum - Rodemy
Scum - Zion, Jey
Oh hey, Kab is scum too.
The deflection is strong with this one.
Question, coasting on what? I was a prime suspect as scum last I read. Sorry, busy week.
Why exactly am I scum again? I forgot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thank you for choosing
Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
I remember being bullied out of defending Grape because "we're scum buddies".
I think I even voted for Kabazame at one point. I would have again but shadow hammered grape before I got back.
Again, I'm willing to vote JeY because I'm willing to be wrong. I don't see how this makes me scum. I feel like you're trying too hard to make this a thing it's not. And with that you're starting to lose credibility with me.
Gonna go ahead and sheep shadow in saying jey should talk about other things.
Specifically killjoy.
Ask and you shall receive:
D1:
My general feel so far is that he seems to be on the sidelines a lot. He interacts, asks and answers questions, and gives his thoughts and knows/makes it clear who he wants to lynch but I feel like he's avoiding as much attention as possible, unlike you [Pa Tennis], who seems to make everyone (including me) want to take a closer look at you. I'm not sure who else besides you has been pushing Killjoy or trying to bring him more into the spotlight and I don't have time for a bigger re-read, do you know off-hand who else is pushing him or trying to get him noticed more?
I think this behavior is indicative of scum but I'm not confident in the read yet. I'll sleep on this one.
One solid thought I do have though, if Killjoy is town, I definitely think you're scum.
D2:
Killjoy is definitely more involved now. Maybe after being called out, he's shaping up, and I don't think I can use that to determine alignment. My initial reaction is it seems scummy, adjust play to to avoid suspicion? I don't even buy that myself.
On a tangentially related note, I am in need of TWO replacements in my game, Silence of the Lambs. One for AtheistGod and one for EternalLurker. The game is on Day 4, just over 2300 posts. If anyone's interested, please PM me.
Which is pretty crazy...
@Toast: I don't care if kabazame is viable. I'm stating reads. Why would I take into account possible wagons?
Kabazame's play has been pretty underwhelming. Just restating the same opinions and not supporting them with new evidence when there should be. He's also making little attempt to convince anyone to vote his way, content to have a dead vote.
To your second question, again, I don't consider what wagon is available. By the last vote count it looks like there aren't any wagons anyway. But players have asked for more stream of consciousness from me, so here we are.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Hi cantrip.
First Killjoy vote was for wagons. I'm still townreading the entire rest of the grapefruit wagon. Some more than others, but positive on all of them.
Revoted because of his proposed scumteam that's half of my town block. Also it feels like he was just pushing me without really reading my posts and then backed off when it didn't get traction. Reason for backoff wasn't bad per se, but it was pretty easy. Haven't liked his questions. Etc.
Anak is like the opposite of that thing where you look at the postcount and go "holy ***** how does _____ have 150 posts I barely remember them" and they're totally scum because they're just saying stuff without it having an impact. Anak has 13 posts right now. Feels like way more. That said I liked him better day 1.
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I did reread but I'm still feeling Jey and Zionite as scum just like yesterDay, so it didn't really change much. I feel like I want more from Rodemy though, and Latin seems to be coasting a bit now that almost everyone is town reading him. He might just be busy but I feel like his drop off in activity from D1 to D2 is staggering.
I lost some confidence with the GF flip and realizing Toast is likely town, so I doubted my reads but in the end I still think Zion/Jey are scum.
You called me vs grapefruit a double bus (not involving EL) It's pretty convenient that you decided the two leading wagons (both town) were bussing each other and made it very easy for you to jump onto either of them.
When asked for a reads list, you quoted yourself saying everyone is scum which is pretty much the definition of keeping your options open... like you could literally jump on the easiest lynch whenever one takes off because you basically call everyone scum
I don't really get what you're going for here. He made it pretty clear why he did it. No matter how locked into his read he his he can't lynch someone by himself, so he's try to get her to react in a way that will make others see what he sees. So I'm not really sure why it's a problem that he's trying to bolster his case on his scum read.
No. Tired posting is bad posting. I'll do it TOMORROW after work. I'm off Saturday. I won't have to get up early. No stress from rushing to get this done before work.
It'll happen.
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Town
Shadow
Rodemy
Anak
Study Latin
Town lean
Pa Tennis
Lingerer
Cantrip
Mixed
Vaimes
KJ
Toastboy
Jey
Zionite
Scum lean
Kabaz
Tubba Fett
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Seems like a roundabout way of doing it.
Your logic toDay does not make sense to me. I don't see the link between Shadow and Jey, nor do I see why you're finding lurker scummy. Nor does it make sense that you're scumreading both Jey and and EL, two individuals who have staunchly opposed each other for a good portion of the game.
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Hmm.
Could you go in-depth on your TR on Anak a bit more? **Nvm after reading #676
That could be indicative, yet that could also be a misunderstanding. Killjoy would have to confirm or deny that.
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Could you possibly outline this thought process a bit more? It would be helpful to see textual support for finding Killjoy scummy semantically.
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It's most likely a result of how different your playstyle is compared to his.
Grr on the other hand did, indeed, make a mistake in their logic some time ago, and that kind of snowballed.
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@Pa, sorry if I missed it, but what's your opinion on Shadow's hammer here?
What's your take on my #358?
I would not expect a new player to realize that Night Kill analysis is wifom. Honestly, that makes him only more towny in my eyes.
It doesn't feel like that at all, Tubba is confrontational about his reads, a sign that he believes strongly in them. It gives off confidence I'd likely see from town; definitely not scum talking themselves into a corner. You hadn't really explained your argument fully until earlier in this post, so this kind of reaction seems natural to me. You've lost me on what 'cftwr' is.
Looks like a bump a new-player would come across. I found it townie because he's actually taking a stance on a player and trying to get them pushed with confidence, it doesn't come across as false certainty.
And also, in light of this post,
He feels yet again more like new-town.
What exactly is your read on Zionite?
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Could you possibly respond to some of the previous questions I've asked you?
Iso--> ctrl-F 'Zionite'
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Could you go over this please?
Also cftwr=caught for the wrong reasons
Re Shadow and JeY, even more so than El, JeY continually calls Shadow scummy Day 1 but refuses to give any reason. One time she even says, "I don't know but I'm sure I"ll find something" (paraphrasing).
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I did read your posts. I don't exactly buy into subconscious tells.
Many people are dropping the ball when it comes to reading Jey's play this game causally imo.
I'm skimming her ISO right now and not seeing it so far.
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Part of my problem with Anak is he's one of the few people I actually kinda remember the playstyle of. When he's town, it's usually not that hard to tell.
My personal experiance with him is that when he's town, even being wishywashy... he's honest. I can kinda see his thinking... transparently. This game he feels less transparent than I'm used to him being.
But his overconfidence and the subsequent apology is him trying to LOOK transparent. There's another layer here. Does that make sense?
My point here is, if shadow is up your ass for hating jey, then he's likely also doing that to other people.
Sure. I'll just sum up the whole of my issue with Tubba.
Tubba, on D1, was overly cautious. Like, more than people, even new players.
D2, (noteably... after scum!Tubba would have gotten a chance to talk to his team) he's making crazy bold claims (like accusing shadow of scumreading him for disliking his buddy jey). It's a huge contrast that seems unnatural.
It's not a loaded question. I don't really see why you think it is.
Why is "people accusing you of leading Tubba" relevent to this post?
It can be. But I'd like Vaimes to answer before I explain it.
I don't think I've EVER been right about Pa Tennis's player's alignment in any game I've played with him. I can't remember ever being right anyway. I frequently scumread him for his playstyle. I fear that I'm doing it this time.
I think there have been very few games where I have interacted with everyone, or even most people in the early game. I tend to focus on people I have strong reads on to make sure they're accurate.
Ok. Back it up. show that I don't beleive what I'm saying.
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I feel I've explained my posts early day two already, but I'll try and give a little more. I had a slight scum lean on grape, but nothing that felt as concrete to me as my read of JeY. When grape flipped town I felt foolish for not pushing harder. Rhand's last post speaking to JeY's scummy behaviour and his death shortly thereafter seemed like a pretty big deal to me, (I'm not sure what wifom means). In hindsight, rhand could've been killed after that statement to MAKE JeY look guilty. In short I felt JeY was getting away with it and I needed to push her on it right away.
I felt like Shadow was all over me and couldn't really understand why, note in my previous read list that he felt scummy by association with JeY. Coupling that with his repeated attacks on me for things I don't feel are alignment indicative, gave me the feeling that they were partnered.
scumShadow doesn't need to jump up the ass of everyone that doesn't like JeY, he just needs to muddy the waters around the situation.
@JeyK, why the unvote on the EL/Cantrip slot once EL replaced out?
@Zionite, point noted about scum drawing attention to themself.
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@Killjoy so you don't buy his explanation in 548 at all?
@Latin it's an expected reaction thing. I think he was exasperated rather than opportunistic, and it felt real.
@Toast: I was totally on board with lynching Kabazame on Day 1. But my town read got hammered instead. I wasn't even on the grape wagon and kabazame was one of the ones saying me and Grape are scum buddies. Like what?
I'm trying to be flexible on JeY/EL because I can be wrong. And like you said there are deadlines. I'm not gonna be one of these stubborn voters (JeY, Kabazame) who don't change their opinion the whole game.
LnGrrrR finally sums up what is weird about JeY, JeY was hiding in the "I can't make pushes" statement against EL. This is kinda the thing I was asking for. Anyone else care to comment?
As for Jey, I'm pretty sure she's scum but I was also pretty sure grapefruit was scum, so I'm going back and forth because I'm not all that confident atm
Sorry for the general lack of engagement day 2, I've been busy moving and stuff. I did say though that I liked Killjoy's posts today, because his thought process seems townie and like he's really trying to figure out the game. I think Rodemy is coasting a bit, and Study Latin was too until recently. I also said I like LnGrrR as town based on his posts today when EL started trying to push him. So I have adjusted my reads based on what has happened today
Town - Anak, Toast, Pa Tennis
Lean Town - LnGrrR, Latin, Vaimes, Killjoy, Shadow
Null - Cantrip, Tubba
Lean scum - Rodemy
Scum - Zion, Jey
I'm trying to be flexible on JeY/EL because I can be wrong. And like you said there are deadlines. I'm not gonna be one of these stubborn voters (JeY, Kabazame) who don't change their opinion the whole game. [/quote]
what are you talking about? I voted GF yesterday and he got lynched, why would I change it? I already said I would be willing to change to Jey if your wagon doesn't take off but it's still early
I would vote Zion, Jey, or Rodemy. Not really feeling scum on anyone else right now
Oh hey, Kab is scum too.
The deflection is strong with this one.
Question, coasting on what? I was a prime suspect as scum last I read. Sorry, busy week.
Why exactly am I scum again? I forgot.
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Except that's a reason why I would be scum now, why was I scum d1?
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Idk, I'd need a computer for that. :7
I think I even voted for Kabazame at one point. I would have again but shadow hammered grape before I got back.
Again, I'm willing to vote JeY because I'm willing to be wrong. I don't see how this makes me scum. I feel like you're trying too hard to make this a thing it's not. And with that you're starting to lose credibility with me.
Can we lynch Kabazame?
Anaklusmos - 1 (Killjoy)
Cantripmancer - 1 (LnGrrrR)
JeY k - 3 (Tubba Fett, Cantripmancer, Rodemy)
Kabazame - 1 (Toastboy)
Killjoy - 3 (Anaklusmos, Pa Tennis, Study Latin)
Tubba Fett - 1 (shadowlancerx)
Vaimes - 1 (Zionite)
Zionite - 2 (Vaimes, Kabazame)
Not Voting - 1 (Jey K)
With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to lynch
The Deadline is approaching fast.
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After skimming the most recent posts... I'm feeling good about this
Vote Kabazame
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Ask and you shall receive:
D1:
My general feel so far is that he seems to be on the sidelines a lot. He interacts, asks and answers questions, and gives his thoughts and knows/makes it clear who he wants to lynch but I feel like he's avoiding as much attention as possible, unlike you [Pa Tennis], who seems to make everyone (including me) want to take a closer look at you. I'm not sure who else besides you has been pushing Killjoy or trying to bring him more into the spotlight and I don't have time for a bigger re-read, do you know off-hand who else is pushing him or trying to get him noticed more?
I think this behavior is indicative of scum but I'm not confident in the read yet. I'll sleep on this one.
One solid thought I do have though, if Killjoy is town, I definitely think you're scum.
D2:
Killjoy is definitely more involved now. Maybe after being called out, he's shaping up, and I don't think I can use that to determine alignment. My initial reaction is it seems scummy, adjust play to to avoid suspicion? I don't even buy that myself.
I'm not crazy about a Killjoy lynch toDay.
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Vote Kabazame
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@jey the people on his wagon are probably a good place to look. why would killjoy being town make me scum?