Firstly I disagree that Jey is town simply because she's been voted a bunch. And you following that line of logic makes me think you beleive it pretty heavily, despite saying you're not 'locked in' sometime later.
I mean, being voted by everyone does actually make a person probable-Town. But, as Vaimes noted, that's not the case here, and furthermore the problem is that various votes during the course of the Day are not nearly the same as serious end-of-Day votes.
So Tubba and Anak are probably scum. Maybe with Vaimes... and... Toast perhaps? IDK that last slot is in the air right now.
If these are independent scum-reads, I can't really argue with any of them (those are mostly nulls to me, aside from Toast being a sliiiight Town-lean for me and Vaimes' recent posts starting to ring scummy for me). But as far as team reads go, I don't think Vaimes is scum with Tubba, for the record. Vaimes would've picked a votal from just a few posts earlier to include me in his little Tubba/Tennis/LnGrrrR scum-pool if he were scum with Tubba; he'd want more options other than Tubba to pick out as the scum in that pool.
@PA Tennis: JeY is town because EL is town. There's not a straightforward dichotomy between the two when, if one were scum, there definitely should be. The two have interacted so much its impossible they're both scum. But I don't see (and no one has offered) evidence that the JeY/EL interactions make JeY scum. I think JeY rubs town readers the wrong way with the emotional appeals, and so I'm not sure which reads on JeY are genuine. It looks like a mislynch to me at this time.
Killjoy's last post makes me feel better about him. Vote/targets are solid. Nothing to complain about, but I don't necessarily share the opinion.
Vaimes is way too aloof; is this how town acts if they believe they have caught scum and no one else is convinced? EL made a good catch in the inconsistencies of Vaimes' reads, where EL's alignment appears to be decided out of convenience. I'd follow this wagon.
1: Yes, I was implying that Shadow voted me because I'm scum reading JeY.
2: Shadow has called me his scummiest read, without really offering any reasons.
3: I can't really speak to whether my play style has changed, nor to any reasons why it may have. I will say that I feel more comfortable with my understanding of the game and trying to figure things out.
Ok. Next question: Ok. So you think Shadow voted you because you scumread Jey. Is Shadow doing this to others as well?
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So Tubba and Anak are probably scum. Maybe with Vaimes... and... Toast perhaps? IDK that last slot is in the air right now.
I'm beginning to doubt my scumread on Pa because I feel like I'm scumreading him for being tom, which I don't think I've ever been right about.
As far as I can tell, no, Shadow only seems to be reacting that way to me. He offered up my "forced interaction" with Zionite as his reasoning for scumreading me, I'm not really sure how that was alignment indicative by calling out someone I perceived to be "lurking" but there it is. He also takes exception to my "throwing shade", but again I'm having a hard time understanding that reasoning. If I perceive someone to be scum, I'm going to push and prod that player into action.
I've previously admitted I could be wrong about JeY, but nobody seems to offer anything of substance on why my scumread is wrong. Until then I'm going to keep pushing her.
@Zionite, do you really think that scum would come in and draw attention to themselves like Vaimes did D1? WIFOM and all, but that would be a pretty ballsy scum move IMHO.
@Kabazame, who is your biggest scumread right now and why? Hypothetically, assume they were immediately shot and flipped scum. Who is that person's most likely buddy?
@Anak, dont have time to backscroll, what didnt you like about GF's vote on Kabazame again?
Two of my towniest reads arent posting and that sucks. Also, how many posts has Rodemy posted? I know I haven't played on here in like 2 years, but when I last played I felt like people can skate by lurking here for two or three Days. If Rodemy is scum, he has 2 "free" Days where we can't analyse his posts.
After that post, Toast, I'd reeeallllly appreciate a full reads-list from you. Don't need any more evidence than you've given (you've certainly not been shy about providing it when requested), just want your current stances on everyone in a simple list.
@Toast: I specifically thought Grapefruit was town because of the self vote. But I have seen too many self votes and I'm not interested in them becoming more prevailant than they already are. If you're going to find it scummy, go nuts, but don't misconstrue it as something it was t.
@Kabazame, who is your biggest scumread right now and why? Hypothetically, assume they were immediately shot and flipped scum. Who is that person's most likely buddy?
It's kind of a toss-up between Jey k and Zionite. If either of them were shot and flipped scum I would say their most likely buddy is the other, just because they're my top two scum reads. I'm not seeing anything that makes me think "these two players are aligned" or anything, so yeah.
Apparently it wasn't as obvious to everyone else Grape was town. And I can't hold him solely accountable without questioning everyone else who voted Grape.
You had pretty little to say about the matter at the time. As far as I can see, the only post you made on the topic was #397 “@Grape: I'm not looking to lynch you right now and I'm skeptical of arguments to do so. That's my read.“ I know you were v/la, but still.
To me this looks like he tried to earn town points by defending GF, knowing he was town, but didn't really have an actual case. I've seen scum do this all the time where they'll defend the obvious lynch target and after the flip they try to toot their own horn.
Actually yeah let's push this along
Vote: Zionite
Thinking about it, I'm concerned he's doing the same thing with Jey k here too, so maybe she is town after all. Regardless I think this is the right lynch today
Take 2 on why I think EternalLurker is scum (Now with 70% less walls):
I did some digging, and I found that EternalLurker barely had any posts that pushed BluesEclipse/Grapefruit yet that slot was the strongest scumread. He made an initial attack and reminded people he made that attack, but kind of... coasted with it. He says in a later post he assured the lynch by preventing the Kabazame counter-wagon and ...something with an acronym (CFD? I'm not denying its legitimacy I just actually don't know what it means) and blocking, I don't know. I feel like if town have a scum read, they try a lot harder than what EternalLurker tried to make the lynch happen. Especially if they're as loud and obnoxious. I'm not sold he was pushing a scum lynch at that time.
I think his motivation was that Kabazame is his scum-buddy and that I'll be way easier to lynch Day 2 (or any time in the future) than Grapefruit, and he needed to die right then and there. The initial attack on Blues stuck and he didn't need to put much effort into keeping it rolling and going with his plans. I just made it really easy for myself to get mislynched because I admit I don't play well and its not difficult to capitalize. Therefore, easy pickings Day 2, two mislynches in a row.
On Rhand - Scum obviously knew he was a power role, but I had no indication based on read he was anything other than regular town. So I've missed something they picked up on, which means I should probably reread and figure out what it was and who picked up on it.
Or scum killed the guy who had mostly been inactive (thus giving no useful interaction tells when he died) and had said he was finally returning home to be more active in future Days (which they'd wanna interrupt). Feel free to read into it and let us know what you find, but don't be surprised if you find nothing.
What's the point of correcting Zionite? There's a wide variety of reasons Rhand was killed, both of these are possibilities, and EternalLurker did express earlier that he wouldn't be nightkilled becuase of the amount of interactions he's had that the town could use. Something really bothers me here but I can't figure out what. It's not a guilty conscious, he's barely trying to cover something up?
I think it's like that "Hi fellow human isn't it a great day to be doing human things" mentality in a much less obvious way.
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Not enough time for a comprehensive reads list. Was killing time while the application finished building at work and now I have to test it!
Here's a list from the top of my memory:
Town: Shadowlancerx, Study Latin, ...
Scum: EternalLurker, Kabazame
Null: everyone else.
@toast I'm not gonna go check right now, but I don't think anak had many posts around eod so only two being about grape doesn't seem super significant.
I like kaba working though zionite/jey. Not sure I agree, but it kinda makes sense.
Also, for the record, I was only slightly scum leaning on Grapefruit, willing to lynch him over a no lynch but much preferred other lynches, and when he self voted I was pretty sure he was town. I hammered for exactly the reasons I said, and I recognize that doing so prevented discussion on the subject. I stand by it, and would do it again.
Could you possibly bring up those reasons once more?
So there's a probability, and a possibility here?
Possibilities and probabilities are fine, fleshing them out is better.
@Pa, has there been a lack of engagement between Shadow and KJ?
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I skimmed the majority of Jey vs Lurker. But I have the general feeling it's likely TvT. I really liked both the way EL approached the read and attempted a push on Jey, but Jey's response in #529 knocked it out of the park in the realm of genuine townie responses. Don't think I'd vote either of these slots today if ever.
Why Tubba over myself or Kabaz, who assisted in the mislynch of Grape? Why aren't we more likely scum than someone on the wagon?
As far as why Tubba, he was my strongest scum read yesterday, and he starts off today by throwing shade and soft defending you, so doing nothing to alleviate the scum vibes coming from him. Additionally, I'm not a huge user of wagonomics, other people have made great points with them, but they are inherently flawed because scum know they exist too.
Why was he your strongest scumread yesterday? Could you possibly revisit your thoughts on him? I also did not pick up on his entrance consisting of "throwing shade" nor any strong defense of KJ.
@Shadow
If by throwing shade, you mean pointing out that the nightkill was actively pushing against someone that I'm strongly scum reading, then yeah, I'm throwing all sorts of shade. All I'm getting from you is that you don't like me scum reading JeY, why?
This is a legitimately townie response to tack along with the questions I posed above, and Tubba continues to prove himself as one of my strong townreads.
It was a poke. I'm interested in how JeY reacts to it. At this point, I'm pretty well locked onto her alignment. Now, I need interaction to help make the case for a lynch to others. If I can't hunt scum and try to get them lynched, and I can't sit back and not post about anything, and I can't question why someone is voting someone else with no background, what am I supposed to do?
I summarized this yesterday, but the man is still new town, very confident on my read here.
@EL, don't have time to post the quotes but I think if JeY=scum then Shadow=scum for two reasons.
Let's end that thought with a full stop. Though I wouldn't usually make a stink about this, what is about to be said is already going to be formed off of a logical gap.
Sorry for my vote yesterday, I'm absolute ***** at making and pushing wagons, so this time I had a read on GF and I just stuck to my guns about it. The conviction came from me trying to be strong about my read instead of shooting myself in the foot yet again. Unfortunately I was wrong, but my read was genuine I really disliked GFs vote of KZ and liked his response to pressure even less.
KJ I don't get your wagon analysis. You call my vote bad, KZs vote was almost as bad as mine, yet my vote was the worst and his was the second best?
Jeys frustration feels genuine, but I'm not sure what that means for her alignment. Which is a fun place to be
I vibe heavily with what is said here.
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End of page 11
Interested in hearing from Shadow about certain things
I know I haven't played on here in like 2 years, but when I last played I felt like people can skate by lurking here for two or three Days. If Rodemy is scum, he has 2 "free" Days where we can't analyse his posts.
This is why I don't let people lurk. {:^#{{ Zio's Day 1 posts may have been somewhat scummy, but I'd be scum-reading him a lot harder if he hadn't made any posts at all; I'm happy that he started posting content through the later part of the Day. (And my prior scum-read of him has been slipping away quite a bit toDay.)
I did some digging, and I found that EternalLurker barely had any posts that pushed BluesEclipse/Grapefruit yet that slot was the strongest scumread. He made an initial attack and reminded people he made that attack, but kind of... coasted with it. He says in a later post he assured the lynch by preventing the Kabazame counter-wagon and ...something with an acronym (CFD? I'm not denying its legitimacy I just actually don't know what it means) and blocking, I don't know.
I blocked the "Chinese Fire Drill" / "Change ******* Direction" (last-minute wagon switch) onto you because I was worried that attempting a CFD at that point would result in a No Lynch. (I regret this decision immensely.) This isn't a useful tack for you to take, because if I hadn't done so then you'd be the one lynched, so you can't make an argument that you're Town while scum-reading me for preventing you from being lynched.
I feel like if town have a scum read, they try a lot harder than what EternalLurker tried to make the lynch happen. Especially if they're as loud and obnoxious. I'm not sold he was pushing a scum lynch at that time.
Except I already told you yesterDay that I simply had no need to push the lynch, as it was happening anyway. My time was better spent developing my reads on other people. (Or, at least, it would've been better spent doing so, if you hadn't forced me to spend time refuting nonsensical arguments.) You're bringing up something I already explained in detail; feel free to argue that my explanation was scummy or a lie or whatever, but ignoring it entirely to reference the initial incident again is disingenuous.
EternalLurker did express earlier that he wouldn't be nightkilled becuase of the amount of interactions he's had that the town could use.
...You've referenced that post multiple times and you somehow manage to "misremember" it every time. (LnGrrrR did the same thing for the same post, so now I'm getting pretty convinced that the two of you are aligned.) Here's the post (second paragraph mostly). I was stating that people who don't interact provide no information for Town when they flip, which is why I can't abide lurkers -- and I was actually talking about lynches at the time, as I made very clear. I was forcing Zionite to stop lurking (which succeeded); I was saying nothing about myself.
[quote from="Tubba Fett »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/780342-low-fantasy-mafia-day-2-no-solution-for-practical?comment=565"]Tubba's response to KJ
And you are my scummiest read, and I've given reasons, your early post to Zionite looked really like forcing interaction (specifically with a scumbuddy), and you're throwing shade.
This doesn't feel real to me.
Also, does this imply you're reading Zionite as scum as well?
Yes, that's right. Your votes are similar, but not the same. His vote is a lot harder to walk back. From a scum perspective, not only does it potentially make him look bad, it makes it hard to stop looking bad. Yours could theoretically be walked back with something as simple as an apology for a bad vote... which you did.
How is Kaba's vote harder to walk back? You just said Anak's was too confident.
@shadow probably not.
@eternal I'm not really into talking about my fake playstyle for this game. I had a backstory to steadily reveal, and a new meta to establish. It's kinda sad. But let me assure you, I would not have been figured out without slipping. I changed formatting, capitalization, deleted some posts that sounded too much like me, eliminated gifs and most of my *****posting, etc. I know how to hide in an alt. Let me also assure you that not explaining my reads is not unique to this playstyle.
I think the fact of my naked voting is making people think I don't explain. But, well... I do. I'm failing enough at my original objective of putting in less effort that I think I've given a read on just about everyone. You're welcome to ask me questions that I might answer.
He comes clean and explains why a majority of his earlier posts came across as strange.
.........is this really ******* happening? is this real life?
Vote: Pa Tennis
He's null on LnGrrrR all game. Literally not a single interaction with him. But, the very moment after I post a reads list in which LnGrrrR is a mafia lean for me, he immediately launches a chainsaw-defense of me against LnGrrrR.
Someone please show me how I'm somehow imagining this constant blatant pocketing. It just doesn't stop, yo.
I don't see it. It's really just normal play, albeit streamlined. However,
Fun fact: JeyK has been voted for more times than any player in this game. The only players not to vote for her are me (town), Study Latin (likely town), Killjoy (shrug), and Kaba (light town, but that read is probably getting stale).
Which makes it more likely than not that mafia have/are voting for her, which makes me feel like she's >rand town in a vacuum.
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Rod, your question has no point. Rephrase, please.
This is indeed one way to look at it. I would revisit this point in the event of a scumflip in any names outside of those four just to double check.
1: Yes, I was implying that Shadow voted me because I'm scum reading JeY.
2: Shadow has called me his scummiest read, without really offering any reasons.
3: I can't really speak to whether my play style has changed, nor to any reasons why it may have. I will say that I feel more comfortable with my understanding of the game and trying to figure things out.
Ok. Next question: Ok. So you think Shadow voted you because you scumread Jey. Is Shadow doing this to others as well?
This is a very good example of a loaded question, and people accused me of leading Tubba earlier in the game.
Fore quick reference and contrast:
Quote from Kaba »
Regardless, I probably wouldn't vote just because you told me too, but Grapefruit was nice enough to just claim scum
Vote: Grapefruit21
You can't just say "I agree with everything toast said" without providing your own thoughts and jump on an easy bandwagon. You're buddying up to Toast calling him "super town" with no reason, same with Rod. Most of your reads are just town or scum with nothing explaining it, except Lurker who everyone has already talked to death about.
Anything original to add?
Quote from Anak »
Oh hey Grapefruits scum. That's neat.
Vote: Grapefruit21
You in your catch up post cursory reads on everyone, then vote the one person you didn't mention, citing hopping on the wagon. Talk about an action that's trying to let you blend in and back out if needed.
Kaba's reasons are better defined, and... well he has more to be wrong about. His reasons were: "following Toast onto the bandwagon", ""buddying up to Toast, calling him super town", "same with Rod", "Everyone on your scumlist has no reasoning except the person who has been talked most about".
He's putting himself much more out there, and isn't excessively confident.
Hmm
Anak's reasoning: "GF posted cursory reads on everyone, then voted someone he didn't mention, citing hopping on the wagon".
That's extremely superficial. It's also just ONE, superficial reason, which doesn't justify the confidence of "Oh, hey GF is scum". Also, that little piece after the reason: "Talk about an action that's trying to let you blend in and back out if needed." is an unneccessary poke at GF to further give his vote the illusion of confidence (and also is ironic since that's exactly what I'm accusing him of, lol).
@Pa Tennis, what are you thoughts about what was said here?
Here's a question: Why are you doing these votecounts?
You could have asked me the same question yesterday. I don't understand how this could lead to anything alignment indicative.
Vote Anak
So Tubba and Anak are probably scum. Maybe with Vaimes... and... Toast perhaps? IDK that last slot is in the air right now.
All of these names feel town to me.
I'm beginning to doubt my scumread on Pa because I feel like I'm scumreading him for being tom, which I don't think I've ever been right about.
This is very incoherent, could you possibly explain more?
Jeez, that is the scummiest reads list I've ever seen. Truly impressive.
The '...' means I swear there was more but I can't remember. I guess I actually have a minute to look at the player list. Missing members of town are: Toastboy, LnGrrrR, Vaimes. that makes null Anaklusmos, Killjoy, Pa Tennis, Rodemy, Tubba Fett, and Zionite. Null might be misleading, I guess 'not confident about a read either way' is more appropriate. I'd have to re-read some more.
...You've referenced that post multiple times and you somehow manage to "misremember" it every time
The fact that you posted a link to the wrong post means I'm not misremembering anything, buddy. But, that also means I have to find it myself.
...After [too long] of searching, I feel like an idiot, because it was LnGrrrR who said they wouldn't night-kill you because of the interactions. So... Nevermind. About that whole part. I don't know why I remember you posting that particular bit.
Edit: quickly remembering you're not actually answering my question and your comment was pointless anyway
I blocked the "Chinese Fire Drill" / "Change ******* Direction" (last-minute wagon switch) onto you because I was worried that attempting a CFD at that point would result in a No Lynch.
Pants emoji, fire emoji. I don't buy it.
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I feel unsatisfied. I can't be the only person who sees what's going on here.
#541 ("btw EternalLurker if you stopped tunneling me for five seconds you might build better cases on better targets." despite actually very few posts against Jey by EL at this point) does reveal a certain paranoia
Since EL also brought up this quote, I'm going to repeat the fact that the post wasn't serious and I was saying it for the sake of ruffling EL's feathers. I said that, and then on the anticipation of getting a reply where he says he's not tunneling, I reply
So apparently when you suspect someone is scum, that's not tunneling, but when I do it, it is? Today I Learned.
In hopes he would get annoyed or something that I was being dumb (or something). But then his reply made me laugh and I realized waiting for him to get annoyed was dumb so I apologized and moved on.
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I still don't understand how accusing someone of tunneling is supposed to instantly dissolve a scum read of you. Anyone wanna answer that for me?
The '...' means I swear there was more but I can't remember. I guess I actually have a minute to look at the player list. Missing members of town are: Toastboy, LnGrrrR, Vaimes. that makes null Anaklusmos, Killjoy, Pa Tennis, Rodemy, Tubba Fett, and Zionite. Null might be misleading, I guess 'not confident about a read either way' is more appropriate. I'd have to re-read some more.
Edit: ...Hold the phone. Elaborate. Scummy?
...Elaborate? Is that a joke? You're either so hilariously tunneled that you have no thoughts about anyone else, or you're scum whose PoE is literally everyone other than Latin (the person who's so widely Town-read he's never getting lynched at this point) and shadow (who you realized you couldn't scum-read for "SvS theater with EL" anymore because that particular argument was laughed off by everyone, so you insta-flipped on him). And it's now pretty clear this is the latter case, while you're just going all-in on the fake-tunnel to pretend it's the former.
So yeah, that's the most blatantly scummy reads-list I've ever seen. This is a 16-player game and you expect us to believe an actual Townie trying to game-solve would have no real Town-reads by Day Two?
Man, that list is actually so bad it puts you right back above Tennis in scumminess. Vote: JeY K.
The fact that you posted a link to the wrong post means I'm not misremembering anything, buddy. But, that also means I have to find it myself.
...After [too long] of searching, I feel like an idiot, because it was LnGrrrR who said they wouldn't night-kill you because of the interactions. So... Nevermind. About that whole part. I don't know why I remember you posting that particular bit.
You remember it coming from me because it was in response to the post I linked (which was therefore not the wrong post). And you remember what LnGrrrR said in response to me, because he "misremembered" it in the same way you misremembered it. Hello scum-chat slips?
Since EL also brought up this quote, I'm going to repeat the fact that the post wasn't serious and I was saying it for the sake of ruffling EL's feathers. I said that, and then on the anticipation of getting a reply where he says he's not tunneling, I reply
So apparently when you suspect someone is scum, that's not tunneling, but when I do it, it is? Today I Learned.
In hopes he would get annoyed or something that I was being dumb (or something). But then his reply made me laugh and I realized waiting for him to get annoyed was dumb so I apologized and moved on.
As long as you're not rules-exploiting or something immoral like that, I'm never gonna get annoyed just cuz scum is being scummy. Use all the appeals to emotion you want; I'm just shaking my head in disappointment that you have nothing better to throw at me, not getting upset about it.
When I suspect someone is scum, I call them out with reasons, while I continue to investigate other people as Mafia or Town. So, no, that's not tunneling.
When you claim to suspect I'm scum, you drop all interest in anyone else in the thread to the point where you have no real Town-reads, you claim to scum-read my strongest Town-read because that's gotta be my scum-buddy right?, and you try to push a hilariously weak case by throwing in AtEs every other post. I'd say "textbook tunneling", but you've made pretty clear it's "textbook fake-tunneling" in an attempt to be Town-read as someone who's legitimately wrong about my alignment.
@EL, can you show me this post where I "misremembered"? If you are saying that mislynching a townie with low post counts/interactions/etc is bad for town and good for Mafia, then I would think it logically follows that killing something with a lot of posts/interactions/etc is undesirable as opposed to a lurker... like, say, Rhand.
@EL, explain this sequence of events. PaTennis says that he thinks I'm one of JeY's scumbuddies. Then, you call him out for his lazy attack on me. And then you agree with him shortly afterwards? How does that line of thinking make any sense?
Unvote
Vote EternalLurker
I like Jey K better than you after that last interaction.
@JeyK, if you're town, know that you're just not gonna get EL lynched toDay. Continuing to tunnel on him isn't going to do anything. Either one of you is bussing hardcore (which after this last interaction, eh, I don't think you're that good at faking, sorry Jey), or you're town vs town, or one of you is scum. Whatever the answer, continuing to fight is detrimental to town. Form some reads/cases on other people.
If you are saying that mislynching a townie with low post counts/interactions/etc is bad for town and good for Mafia, then I would think it logically follows that killing something with a lot of posts/interactions/etc is undesirable as opposed to a lurker... like, say, Rhand.
Sure. But you're the one making that extrapolation; I'm not the one who said that. JeY claimed it was me, and you're implying it was my intent to draw that conclusion from my statement. Neither of those are true. That's why the shared mis-thinking from you both about that post is...problematic.
@EL, explain this sequence of events. PaTennis says that he thinks I'm one of JeY's scumbuddies. Then, you call him out for his lazy attack on me. And then you agree with him shortly afterwards? How does that line of thinking make any sense?
It doesn't! Good thing that's not what happened at all. I scum-read him for his chainsaw's continued incredibly suspicious timing. I never said the content of the attack was lazy (in fact, he's quite correct in noting that you're trying to draw tons of pre-flip associations between people). Nice try at yet again putting words into my mouth, though?
@JeyK, if you're town, know that you're just not gonna get EL lynched toDay.
Okay, what? How do you vote me and then make that statement in the same ******* post? Are you just admitting that your vote is a complete waste? Cuz that's terrible.
@EL, I wanted to make sure I had your attention. Mission successful.
That extrapolation is a pretty obvious one to make. Here, let me break it down SAT style
More info = Bad for scum, then less info = ???
It's not too hard to extrapolate that if you claim (rightfully) that scum killing a lurker is good because it provides info, then scum killing someone who has posted a TON is LESS GOOD.
Trying to tie that revelation to some "scumslip" is reaching. Like... tiny man trying to pet a tall giraffe on the head reaching.
And WAITASEC, since WHEN did you decide trying to tie pre scum flip associations is scummy? Because I called YOU out for that earlier D1, ya know, the post JeY agreed with me on?
The only person I think I've tied scumflips to is JeY K, and I've already explained the reason (her bringing up her fear of bussing relatively unforced, which led me to believe she was subconsciously thinking about bussing). Also, upon rereading her before the end of D1, she did this weird, "Shadow is scummy but I won't say why" on multiple posts, which had my scumdar pinging.
Ah, also forgot: JeyK's vote on Eternal is semi-useless because we know she wants to lynch EternalLurker, as she has since early D1. By continuing to keep her vote on there, she isn't putting any new information into the thread, and I think she has proven that she can't push a good case against Eternal. So nothing is gained, and continuing to repeat various versions of "Scummy but I can't put my finger on it" won't help.
My vote 1) got his attention and 2) signifies I am willing to lynch him, which I think is new information.
@latin I think Killjoy has avoided interacting with most everyone. I know he's not much of a realtime player normally, but yeah.
As for what I think of Killjoy's Anak stuff... I think Anak is town and I'm currently voting Killjoy.
I'd also like to note here that he asked me to explain my townreads and I sarcastically linked him to my own iso and he thought I was linking to a particular post of townreads and then... never clicked it to check I guess and just backed off me.
Ah, also forgot: JeyK's vote on Eternal is semi-useless because we know she wants to lynch EternalLurker, as she has since early D1. By continuing to keep her vote on there, she isn't putting any new information into the thread, and I think she has proven that she can't push a good case against Eternal. So nothing is gained, and continuing to repeat various versions of "Scummy but I can't put my finger on it" won't help.
My vote 1) got his attention and 2) signifies I am willing to lynch him, which I think is new information.
I read this and realised it could apply to me as well. By focusing on JeY, I've been ignoring other players.
I'm not moving my vote for previously stated reasons, but I am going to pull back and look over things to see what else is going on.
That extrapolation is a pretty obvious one to make. Here, let me break it down SAT style
More info = Bad for scum, then less info = ???
It's not too hard to extrapolate that if you claim (rightfully) that scum killing a lurker is good because it provides info, then scum killing someone who has posted a TON is LESS GOOD.
Except I never said anything about scum-kills. I've repeatedly reminded you, and if you'd actually bother reading the post you'd realize, that I was just talking about mislynches. Scum-kills have to take plenty of other factors into account. So you are "extrapolating" from something I never said while repeatedly claiming I did. And this is why your joint misinformation campaign with JeY is getting pretty ridiculous.
And WAITASEC, since WHEN did you decide trying to tie pre scum flip associations is scummy? Because I called YOU out for that earlier D1, ya know, the post JeY agreed with me on?
Yeah, you did, and it was B.S. I look at independent scumminess; then, if someone is sufficiently scummy, I look at potential alliances to see if there are any viable scum-buddies, and if there aren't any then I'm very unlikely to scum-read that person. So I look at alliances more to clear people than to scum-read them. I don't decide to lynch someone just based on possible buddying, because that'd be lynching based on a pre-flip association.
The only time I consider pre-flip associations as a positive factor for a lynch, rather than as a reason not to lynch, is if deadline is coming up and Town can't decide between a few targets. In that scenario, I'll look at potential alliances to determine which flip at least provides us with the best information if a lynch turns out to be a mislynch.
You, on the other hand, decided that JeY-as-scum implies shadow-as-scum without providing any other reasons for scum-reading shadow. That's an association based solely on buddying, which is bad. The association is also mono-directional, which makes it weak and a clear stretch. (It's also based on straight-up incorrect information -- JeY voted KZ, not GF -- but that's a separate problem.)
My vote 1) got his attention and 2) signifies I am willing to lynch him, which I think is new information.
1) still lol'ling at that cover-up
2) ...Do you not even remember your own reads on people? That's a pretty clear sign of scum fabricating reads as needed for the gamestate. YOU WERE ON ME ALL YESTERDAY, FROM YOUR VERY FIRST SERIOUS VOTE OF THE GAME. Your only diversion was a brief weak vote on KZ. And now you claim that it's new information that you wanna lynch me?
Yeah, no, this is ridiculous. Vote: LnGrrrR.
Ya know, if the scum-team's plan to save JeY is to take turns being even scummier than her, spoiler alert: your plan is bad.
Or I just think you're both scum. Less to do with you being a team and more individual reads.
{Aside; my quote comes from Grapefruit/Kabazame pairing but it applies here, and me mentioning EternalLurker's townread of Kabazame was less 'I think Kabazame is scum because EL is' and more 'This is why EL is townreading Kabazame'}
I am perfectly fine with a CFD onto JeY for a few reasons, the most relevant being that her hilarious vote on KZ has put her beyond Grapefruit on my scum-dar. I don't think it's actually going to happen before the deadline, though, and I don't wanna switch and end up causing a No Lynch. With 9 votes needed to lynch and only maybe 5 people currently in the mood for lynching JeY, I don't think that's a viable CFD.
Here's the JeY situation as it currently stands. And I'm really regretting not allowing the CFD onto JeY yesterDay; this is perhaps my fault, cuz I did not wanna risk us trying and failing to CFD and getting a No Lynch in the process.
Not allowing? Excuse me? What you did was the opposite. You just didn't force it, which isn't 'not allowing' it.
*proceeds to quote a post that has absolutely nothing to do with what's being discussed*
...
Is the plan here to take advantage of the fact that I can't simultaneously lynch you and LnGrrrR, so you're just both gonna take turns going full Orwell and hope that lynching one exonerates the other because "scum wouldn't protect each other that blatantly"? I don't understand your gameplan here in being so obviously fact-free with your attacks and defenses.
Not allowing? Excuse me? What you did was the opposite. You just didn't force it, which isn't 'not allowing' it.
Uh. No. I specifically said I wouldn't switch my vote unless I had strong reason to believe it wouldn't result in a No Lynch. I was not given enough reason, so I did not switch my vote, which disallowed the CFD because there would not have been enough votes on you without me. This isn't complicated.
Why in the world would I even attempt to case you on something you already 'explained' if I didn't already think it was scummy?
Why in the world do you think that specifically ignoring my request to explain why it's scummy, rather than repeatedly saying that it is with no reasoning, is somehow a good idea?
@Anak, why apologize though? Obviously a lot of people got it wrong as he did get lynched.
Because I felt bad and responsible for getting his wagon going? Despite what EL says, I feel like I was the one who really started that ball rolling. Sure it may be silly to think that, but I did. I am who I am, and sometimes I get too empathetic about these things.
KJs vote and reasoning for me are still bad though. It feels much more like he saw an easy mislynch Target in me and tried to rationalize it than genuinely believing the things he said about me and the wagon analysis
Well, it's official: the scum team's gone full Orwellian Nightmare mode. @KZ: This is an example of a point beyond which it's fair to say that interaction with scum is fruitless. (-.-) I think you made that decision way too early with Toastboy yesterDay; he was quite open to reasoned discussion about his views. LnGrrrR and JeY, however, clearly don't care about facts and logic, so I'm done wasting my time on discussions with them. My vote might go back and forth between the two, but there's no longer any way that it's moving off of them both toDay, cuz this is just disgusting.
@Anak: Don't worry, I wasn't trying to steal the credit from you and KZ. As I said, my vote got no traction until you two popped in. I just wanted to establish that I'd been scum-reading GF even pre-replacement, so that people don't think you guys pulled scum-reads out of thin air. GF and Blues were legitimately scummy, so that slot was an entirely understandable mislynch and I don't think casting suspicion on you two for starting the wagon is fair.
Not buying that KJ sees you as an "easy mislynch", though, given my interactions with him regarding KZ.
@EL, eh, you are right I didnt write clearly. My point in that vote is to show that I trust you LESS than Jey right now. That was reversed before your last interaction. While I was scum reading you, I am willing to accept I could be wrong if only myself and another not-towny read thought so. I thought you were scummy, but not enough to lynch. ToDay, I would be fine with it.
Re: Shadow tying to JeY, you are mostly right on that, although I didnt like the hammer vote. But without JeY's weird dance, he would be null with maybe a tiny scumlean.
Also, I don't like the assertion that Bluefruit was "genuinely scummy" as if it excuses your place on the wagon.(Or any buddies on the wagon.)
@EL, eh, you are right I didnt write clearly. My point in that vote is to show that I trust you LESS than Jey right now. That was reversed before your last interaction. While I was scum reading you, I am willing to accept I could be wrong if only myself and another not-towny read thought so. I thought you were scummy, but not enough to lynch. ToDay, I would be fine with it.
You were literally voting me for half of yesterDay, so I don't buy that retreat. You've forgotten the intensity/duration of your own scum-read, and while that's not scum-lock behavior, it's definitely suspicious.
Re: Shadow tying to JeY, you are mostly right on that, although I didnt like the hammer vote. But without JeY's weird dance, he would be null with maybe a tiny scumlean.
...Yeah, don't do that. Ever. Relying on mono-directional scum-buddying is how the Mafia traps you into mislynching someone that they framed.
Also, I don't like the assertion that Bluefruit was "genuinely scummy" as if it excuses your place on the wagon.(Or any buddies on the wagon.)
Would you rather I say "That slot wasn't scummy and I have no idea why I voted it"? It was a scummy slot. People lynched it for being scummy. Wagon analysis is certainly acceptable, but I don't think it's fair to rail on Anak and KZ for pushing what was a very legitimate wagon. That's all.
Also, for the record, I was only slightly scum leaning on Grapefruit, willing to lynch him over a no lynch but much preferred other lynches, and when he self voted I was pretty sure he was town. I hammered for exactly the reasons I said, and I recognize that doing so prevented discussion on the subject. I stand by it, and would do it again.
Could you possibly bring up those reasons once more?
Unvote Vote Grapefruit
I'm sick and town of town self voting out of frustration.
I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IT.
If you're town, which I can't help but think is the case with that self vote, then shame on you, but I'm don't with it, and I will be policy voting anyone who self votes in any scenario that is not LyLo from here on out. Townies continuing to do this is going to make it an okay scum tactic and I'm not going to stand for it.
Why Tubba over myself or Kabaz, who assisted in the mislynch of Grape? Why aren't we more likely scum than someone on the wagon?
As far as why Tubba, he was my strongest scum read yesterday, and he starts off today by throwing shade and soft defending you, so doing nothing to alleviate the scum vibes coming from him. Additionally, I'm not a huge user of wagonomics, other people have made great points with them, but they are inherently flawed because scum know they exist too.
Why was he your strongest scumread yesterday? Could you possibly revisit your thoughts on him? I also did not pick up on his entrance consisting of "throwing shade" nor any strong defense of KJ.
Because he looked and acted like awkward scum. His attempt at looking townie felt like an act to me, and he's not really done anything that looks genuinely townie since. And his opening post of the today was basically "Hey Jey, Rhand called you scum, did you kill him for it?" It's a false dichotomy based on NK analysis. And then he tags on "Pa, why you vote for KJ?!?!" Which is where I pulled the soft KJ defense from.
@Shadow
If by throwing shade, you mean pointing out that the nightkill was actively pushing against someone that I'm strongly scum reading, then yeah, I'm throwing all sorts of shade. All I'm getting from you is that you don't like me scum reading JeY, why?
This is a legitimately townie response to tack along with the questions I posed above, and Tubba continues to prove himself as one of my strong townreads.
Feels more like displacing my read of him, strawman-ing my argument, and a hint of cftwr. I don't care about his read of Jey. I care about how he approaches reads, and shading people is scummy regardless of how scummy or townie the recipient is.
It was a poke. I'm interested in how JeY reacts to it. At this point, I'm pretty well locked onto her alignment. Now, I need interaction to help make the case for a lynch to others. If I can't hunt scum and try to get them lynched, and I can't sit back and not post about anything, and I can't question why someone is voting someone else with no background, what am I supposed to do?
I summarized this yesterday, but the man is still new town, very confident on my read here.
You really don't see the mindset disconnect? He is sure of her alignment, but wants to see her reaction? And he straw mans again; no one is telling him he can't scum hunt or question or anything. I suspect him for his methods, not because he's "scum hunting".
And you are my scummiest read, and I've given reasons, your early post to Zionite looked really like forcing interaction (specifically with a scumbuddy), and you're throwing shade.
This doesn't feel real to me.
Also, does this imply you're reading Zionite as scum as well?
It is so I don't know what to tell you. And it doesn't imply it, I've openly said it. Granted, my read on Zionite today is not nearly confident enough to just chain lynch him of Tubba flips town, I'd dig way into him and make sure.
@Anak, why apologize though? Obviously a lot of people got it wrong as he did get lynched.
Because I felt bad and responsible for getting his wagon going? Despite what EL says, I feel like I was the one who really started that ball rolling. Sure it may be silly to think that, but I did. I am who I am, and sometimes I get too empathetic about these things.
KJs vote and reasoning for me are still bad though. It feels much more like he saw an easy mislynch Target in me and tried to rationalize it than genuinely believing the things he said about me and the wagon analysis
Vote: Killjoy
I like this reply, Anak is probs town.
Anak, how do you feel about Tubba?
@Zionite, do you really think that scum would come in and draw attention to themselves like Vaimes did D1? WIFOM and all, but that would be a pretty ballsy scum move IMHO.
Shadowlancer just did this in Apocalypse and everyone thought he was town. Scum won. So yes I think scum would come in and draw attention if they want to.
@Kabazame: I like how you assume JeY and me are buddies and yet admit having no evidence of such whatsoever. The only reason players aren't voting you is because there are somehow scummier targets.
@Toast: I'm just saying if folks are overwhelmingly in favor of lynching JeY and I actually see some indication that this is SvT between JeY and EL, I would change my mind. The most recent interactions are making that case however.
@Vaimes If jey was my buddy I'd definitely bus her.
Why?
vote jey k
I'm fine with my vote there.
The post about EL "coasting" with his BE read does it.
I feel like the tunnel on EL is an attempt to forgo any other reads, and easily coast.
*shrug* that and her overall posts feel.. scummy.
I can't do a PfP analysis or be all fancy with mafia logic and *****, because, well i am far behind in reading. But seeing her most recent post just makes me feel my read from her on d2 is justified.
Anyone trying to figure out why rhand was killed is wasting time and there is probably scum in the bunch trying to derail town. Sorry I haven't been posting content today. It's been a real hectic week or so and life is busy
But I resolve not to replace out. I feel it will complicate things more and god help anyone having to read EL's mega wallvomit.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thank you for choosing
Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
@Kabazame: I like how you assume JeY and me are buddies and yet admit having no evidence of such whatsoever. The only reason players aren't voting you is because there are somehow scummier targets.
I have no evidence linking you together, but that doesn't matter. You're both probably scum so by default you're probably buddies! I think people often try to hard to link the scum together when they're purposefully trying not to link themselves.
I agree Jey K should talk about something else. She's mostly talked about EL (weak arguments as well imo) and calling every back-and-forth bussing. Seems like she's trying to keep her options open... not many town reads either. Would support lynching her as well as Zionite. Not really feeling Lngr at the moment though, still leaning town
@Shadow
Don't you think it's a little disingenuous to describe my question about Pa's Killjoy vote as "Pa, why you vote for KJ?!?!". I know you wouldn't do anything shady, so I'll assume it was a simple slip up. I was seeking understanding of Pa's read. I feel the more information/perspective I have the better. If he had responded, it would've allowed me too review killjoy with that in mind.
@Pa
On the subject, what do you think about killjoy? You've brought him up several times, but iirc not really any reasons for it.
[quote from="Zionite »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/780342-low-fantasy-mafia-day-2-no-solution-for-practical?comment=656"]I agree Jey K should talk about something else. She's mostly talked about EL (weak arguments as well imo) and calling every back-and-forth bussing. Seems like she's trying to keep her options open... not many town reads either.
I never called EL vs Pa Tennis or LnGrrrR bussing, so that's wrong. And every back and forth as in everyone debating ever? Or specifically with EL, because if you increase the scope you're undeniably wrong and possibly you stopped reading after D1.
Keeping my options open? What options am I keeping open? I've been pushing one lynch I strongly believe in, and most of 'I don't have a confident read's list are people who have come under scrutiny lately that I wanted to examine further.
If this isn't someone blatantly trying to push a mislynch I don't know what is.
I do agree that the apology, regardless of precisely what it was for which he was apologizing, isn't a great look. I mean, being voted by everyone does actually make a person probable-Town. But, as Vaimes noted, that's not the case here, and furthermore the problem is that various votes during the course of the Day are not nearly the same as serious end-of-Day votes. If these are independent scum-reads, I can't really argue with any of them (those are mostly nulls to me, aside from Toast being a sliiiight Town-lean for me and Vaimes' recent posts starting to ring scummy for me). But as far as team reads go, I don't think Vaimes is scum with Tubba, for the record. Vaimes would've picked a votal from just a few posts earlier to include me in his little Tubba/Tennis/LnGrrrR scum-pool if he were scum with Tubba; he'd want more options other than Tubba to pick out as the scum in that pool.
Killjoy's last post makes me feel better about him. Vote/targets are solid. Nothing to complain about, but I don't necessarily share the opinion.
Vaimes is way too aloof; is this how town acts if they believe they have caught scum and no one else is convinced? EL made a good catch in the inconsistencies of Vaimes' reads, where EL's alignment appears to be decided out of convenience. I'd follow this wagon.
vote Vaimes
My impression of SL has soured considerably.
As far as I can tell, no, Shadow only seems to be reacting that way to me. He offered up my "forced interaction" with Zionite as his reasoning for scumreading me, I'm not really sure how that was alignment indicative by calling out someone I perceived to be "lurking" but there it is. He also takes exception to my "throwing shade", but again I'm having a hard time understanding that reasoning. If I perceive someone to be scum, I'm going to push and prod that player into action.
I've previously admitted I could be wrong about JeY, but nobody seems to offer anything of substance on why my scumread is wrong. Until then I'm going to keep pushing her.
Anaklusmos - 1 (Killjoy)
EternalLurker - 1 (JeY k)
JeY k - 3 (Tubba Fett, LnGrrrR, Pa Tennis)
Kabazame - 1 (Toastboy)
Pa Tennis - 1 (EternalLurker)
Tubba Fett - 1 (shadowlancerx)
Vaimes - 1 (Zionite)
Zionite - 1 (Vaimes)
Not Voting - 4 (Anaklusmos, Kabazame, Rodemy, Study Latin)
With 14 Alive it takes 8 votes to lynch
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Kabazame, Rodemy, Study Latin, and Toastboy are being prodded for not having provided content in 72 hours.
Deadline is a little over a week away
@Kabazame, who is your biggest scumread right now and why? Hypothetically, assume they were immediately shot and flipped scum. Who is that person's most likely buddy?
@Anak, dont have time to backscroll, what didnt you like about GF's vote on Kabazame again?
Two of my towniest reads arent posting and that sucks. Also, how many posts has Rodemy posted? I know I haven't played on here in like 2 years, but when I last played I felt like people can skate by lurking here for two or three Days. If Rodemy is scum, he has 2 "free" Days where we can't analyse his posts.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
But it's not NOT a thing.
Also I'm gonna have to catch up soon. A lot of players are posting in a way that makes it so hard for me to focus. Adhd be damned I am gonna try.
After that post, Toast, I'd reeeallllly appreciate a full reads-list from you. Don't need any more evidence than you've given (you've certainly not been shy about providing it when requested), just want your current stances on everyone in a simple list.
It's kind of a toss-up between Jey k and Zionite. If either of them were shot and flipped scum I would say their most likely buddy is the other, just because they're my top two scum reads. I'm not seeing anything that makes me think "these two players are aligned" or anything, so yeah.
To me this looks like he tried to earn town points by defending GF, knowing he was town, but didn't really have an actual case. I've seen scum do this all the time where they'll defend the obvious lynch target and after the flip they try to toot their own horn.
Actually yeah let's push this along
Vote: Zionite
Thinking about it, I'm concerned he's doing the same thing with Jey k here too, so maybe she is town after all. Regardless I think this is the right lynch today
I did some digging, and I found that EternalLurker barely had any posts that pushed BluesEclipse/Grapefruit yet that slot was the strongest scumread. He made an initial attack and reminded people he made that attack, but kind of... coasted with it. He says in a later post he assured the lynch by preventing the Kabazame counter-wagon and ...something with an acronym (CFD? I'm not denying its legitimacy I just actually don't know what it means) and blocking, I don't know. I feel like if town have a scum read, they try a lot harder than what EternalLurker tried to make the lynch happen. Especially if they're as loud and obnoxious. I'm not sold he was pushing a scum lynch at that time.
Evidence: Search for Grapefruit, Search for BluesEclipse
{I tried some aliases and shorthands too but didn't get anything relevant}
I think his motivation was that Kabazame is his scum-buddy and that I'll be way easier to lynch Day 2 (or any time in the future) than Grapefruit, and he needed to die right then and there. The initial attack on Blues stuck and he didn't need to put much effort into keeping it rolling and going with his plans. I just made it really easy for myself to get mislynched because I admit I don't play well and its not difficult to capitalize. Therefore, easy pickings Day 2, two mislynches in a row.
---
Another thing that struck me as odd was
What's the point of correcting Zionite? There's a wide variety of reasons Rhand was killed, both of these are possibilities, and EternalLurker did express earlier that he wouldn't be nightkilled becuase of the amount of interactions he's had that the town could use. Something really bothers me here but I can't figure out what. It's not a guilty conscious, he's barely trying to cover something up?
I think it's like that "Hi fellow human isn't it a great day to be doing human things" mentality in a much less obvious way.
---
Not enough time for a comprehensive reads list. Was killing time while the application finished building at work and now I have to test it!
Here's a list from the top of my memory:
Town: Shadowlancerx, Study Latin, ...
Scum: EternalLurker, Kabazame
Null: everyone else.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
@toast I'm not gonna go check right now, but I don't think anak had many posts around eod so only two being about grape doesn't seem super significant.
I like kaba working though zionite/jey. Not sure I agree, but it kinda makes sense.
Think I'd rather
vote killjoy
Out of this list, why Tubba? *nvm after #531
---
Could you possibly bring up those reasons once more?
---
So there's a probability, and a possibility here?
Possibilities and probabilities are fine, fleshing them out is better.
@Pa, has there been a lack of engagement between Shadow and KJ?
---
I skimmed the majority of Jey vs Lurker. But I have the general feeling it's likely TvT. I really liked both the way EL approached the read and attempted a push on Jey, but Jey's response in #529 knocked it out of the park in the realm of genuine townie responses. Don't think I'd vote either of these slots today if ever.
---
Does this have anything to do with his vote yesterday?
---
Why was he your strongest scumread yesterday? Could you possibly revisit your thoughts on him? I also did not pick up on his entrance consisting of "throwing shade" nor any strong defense of KJ.
---
This is a legitimately townie response to tack along with the questions I posed above, and Tubba continues to prove himself as one of my strong townreads.
---
I summarized this yesterday, but the man is still new town, very confident on my read here.
---
Could you possibly explain where this doubt stems from?
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Let's end that thought with a full stop. Though I wouldn't usually make a stink about this, what is about to be said is already going to be formed off of a logical gap.
---
I vibe heavily with what is said here.
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End of page 11
Interested in hearing from Shadow about certain things
Vote: shadowlancerx
btw JeY if you stopped tunneling me for five seconds you might build an actual reads list on more people
Jeez, that is the scummiest reads list I've ever seen. Truly impressive.
Delve on this note please.
---
This doesn't feel real to me.
Also, does this imply you're reading Zionite as scum as well?
---
He comes clean and explains why a majority of his earlier posts came across as strange.
---
I don't see it. It's really just normal play, albeit streamlined. However,
you would be correct to think that this is a stretch.
---
This is indeed one way to look at it. I would revisit this point in the event of a scumflip in any names outside of those four just to double check.
---
The only possibility I would see being likely among those names is LnGrr.
---
End of page 12
Hmm
@Pa Tennis, what are you thoughts about what was said here?
You could have asked me the same question yesterday. I don't understand how this could lead to anything alignment indicative.
All of these names feel town to me.
This is very incoherent, could you possibly explain more?
Vote: Killjoy
---
I don't understand what you're pointing at here.
The '...' means I swear there was more but I can't remember. I guess I actually have a minute to look at the player list. Missing members of town are: Toastboy, LnGrrrR, Vaimes. that makes null Anaklusmos, Killjoy, Pa Tennis, Rodemy, Tubba Fett, and Zionite. Null might be misleading, I guess 'not confident about a read either way' is more appropriate. I'd have to re-read some more.
Edit: ...Hold the phone. Elaborate. Scummy?
The fact that you posted a link to the wrong post means I'm not misremembering anything, buddy. But, that also means I have to find it myself.
...After [too long] of searching, I feel like an idiot, because it was LnGrrrR who said they wouldn't night-kill you because of the interactions. So... Nevermind. About that whole part. I don't know why I remember you posting that particular bit.
Edit: quickly remembering you're not actually answering my question and your comment was pointless anyway
I'm saying your reason isn't good enough and its scummy. Having explanations doesn't magically hand-wave the situation.
2 characters is too short for a search (that was one of the first things I tried because I knew you used it)
"I'm saying your reason isn't good enough and its scummy. Having explanations doesn't magically hand-wave the situation."
Pants emoji, fire emoji. I don't buy it.
---
I feel unsatisfied. I can't be the only person who sees what's going on here.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Since EL also brought up this quote, I'm going to repeat the fact that the post wasn't serious and I was saying it for the sake of ruffling EL's feathers. I said that, and then on the anticipation of getting a reply where he says he's not tunneling, I reply
In hopes he would get annoyed or something that I was being dumb (or something). But then his reply made me laugh and I realized waiting for him to get annoyed was dumb so I apologized and moved on.
---
I still don't understand how accusing someone of tunneling is supposed to instantly dissolve a scum read of you. Anyone wanna answer that for me?
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
So yeah, that's the most blatantly scummy reads-list I've ever seen. This is a 16-player game and you expect us to believe an actual Townie trying to game-solve would have no real Town-reads by Day Two?
Man, that list is actually so bad it puts you right back above Tennis in scumminess. Vote: JeY K. You remember it coming from me because it was in response to the post I linked (which was therefore not the wrong post). And you remember what LnGrrrR said in response to me, because he "misremembered" it in the same way you misremembered it. Hello scum-chat slips? That's not what you said. But sure. Go ahead and explain why it's scummy. I was very clear about my reasons, but I'd love to hear how you manage to reinterpret that one as a scum-tell. As long as you're not rules-exploiting or something immoral like that, I'm never gonna get annoyed just cuz scum is being scummy. Use all the appeals to emotion you want; I'm just shaking my head in disappointment that you have nothing better to throw at me, not getting upset about it.
When I suspect someone is scum, I call them out with reasons, while I continue to investigate other people as Mafia or Town. So, no, that's not tunneling.
When you claim to suspect I'm scum, you drop all interest in anyone else in the thread to the point where you have no real Town-reads, you claim to scum-read my strongest Town-read because that's gotta be my scum-buddy right?, and you try to push a hilariously weak case by throwing in AtEs every other post. I'd say "textbook tunneling", but you've made pretty clear it's "textbook fake-tunneling" in an attempt to be Town-read as someone who's legitimately wrong about my alignment.
@EL, explain this sequence of events. PaTennis says that he thinks I'm one of JeY's scumbuddies. Then, you call him out for his lazy attack on me. And then you agree with him shortly afterwards? How does that line of thinking make any sense?
Unvote
Vote EternalLurker
I like Jey K better than you after that last interaction.
@JeyK, if you're town, know that you're just not gonna get EL lynched toDay. Continuing to tunnel on him isn't going to do anything. Either one of you is bussing hardcore (which after this last interaction, eh, I don't think you're that good at faking, sorry Jey), or you're town vs town, or one of you is scum. Whatever the answer, continuing to fight is detrimental to town. Form some reads/cases on other people.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
It doesn't! Good thing that's not what happened at all. I scum-read him for his chainsaw's continued incredibly suspicious timing. I never said the content of the attack was lazy (in fact, he's quite correct in noting that you're trying to draw tons of pre-flip associations between people). Nice try at yet again putting words into my mouth, though?
I suppose that makes sense when you're basing your interpretation of the interaction on incorrect information.
Okay, what? How do you vote me and then make that statement in the same ******* post? Are you just admitting that your vote is a complete waste? Cuz that's terrible.
Why did you vote EL and then say he wasn't being lynched today? Seems kind of pointless
That extrapolation is a pretty obvious one to make. Here, let me break it down SAT style
More info = Bad for scum, then less info = ???
It's not too hard to extrapolate that if you claim (rightfully) that scum killing a lurker is good because it provides info, then scum killing someone who has posted a TON is LESS GOOD.
Trying to tie that revelation to some "scumslip" is reaching. Like... tiny man trying to pet a tall giraffe on the head reaching.
And WAITASEC, since WHEN did you decide trying to tie pre scum flip associations is scummy? Because I called YOU out for that earlier D1, ya know, the post JeY agreed with me on?
The only person I think I've tied scumflips to is JeY K, and I've already explained the reason (her bringing up her fear of bussing relatively unforced, which led me to believe she was subconsciously thinking about bussing). Also, upon rereading her before the end of D1, she did this weird, "Shadow is scummy but I won't say why" on multiple posts, which had my scumdar pinging.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
My vote 1) got his attention and 2) signifies I am willing to lynch him, which I think is new information.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
As for what I think of Killjoy's Anak stuff... I think Anak is town and I'm currently voting Killjoy.
I'd also like to note here that he asked me to explain my townreads and I sarcastically linked him to my own iso and he thought I was linking to a particular post of townreads and then... never clicked it to check I guess and just backed off me.
I read this and realised it could apply to me as well. By focusing on JeY, I've been ignoring other players.
I'm not moving my vote for previously stated reasons, but I am going to pull back and look over things to see what else is going on.
... Except I never said anything about scum-kills. I've repeatedly reminded you, and if you'd actually bother reading the post you'd realize, that I was just talking about mislynches. Scum-kills have to take plenty of other factors into account. So you are "extrapolating" from something I never said while repeatedly claiming I did. And this is why your joint misinformation campaign with JeY is getting pretty ridiculous.
Yeah, you did, and it was B.S. I look at independent scumminess; then, if someone is sufficiently scummy, I look at potential alliances to see if there are any viable scum-buddies, and if there aren't any then I'm very unlikely to scum-read that person. So I look at alliances more to clear people than to scum-read them. I don't decide to lynch someone just based on possible buddying, because that'd be lynching based on a pre-flip association.
The only time I consider pre-flip associations as a positive factor for a lynch, rather than as a reason not to lynch, is if deadline is coming up and Town can't decide between a few targets. In that scenario, I'll look at potential alliances to determine which flip at least provides us with the best information if a lynch turns out to be a mislynch.
You, on the other hand, decided that JeY-as-scum implies shadow-as-scum without providing any other reasons for scum-reading shadow. That's an association based solely on buddying, which is bad. The association is also mono-directional, which makes it weak and a clear stretch. (It's also based on straight-up incorrect information -- JeY voted KZ, not GF -- but that's a separate problem.)
2) ...Do you not even remember your own reads on people? That's a pretty clear sign of scum fabricating reads as needed for the gamestate. YOU WERE ON ME ALL YESTERDAY, FROM YOUR VERY FIRST SERIOUS VOTE OF THE GAME. Your only diversion was a brief weak vote on KZ. And now you claim that it's new information that you wanna lynch me?
Yeah, no, this is ridiculous. Vote: LnGrrrR.
Ya know, if the scum-team's plan to save JeY is to take turns being even scummier than her, spoiler alert: your plan is bad.
Oh cool let's talk about incorrect information
{Aside; my quote comes from Grapefruit/Kabazame pairing but it applies here, and me mentioning EternalLurker's townread of Kabazame was less 'I think Kabazame is scum because EL is' and more 'This is why EL is townreading Kabazame'}
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Thanks for the link here:
Showed me this:
Not allowing? Excuse me? What you did was the opposite. You just didn't force it, which isn't 'not allowing' it.
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Why in the world would I even attempt to case you on something you already 'explained' if I didn't already think it was scummy?
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Exactly what I said when I read that whole post.
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Is the plan here to take advantage of the fact that I can't simultaneously lynch you and LnGrrrR, so you're just both gonna take turns going full Orwell and hope that lynching one exonerates the other because "scum wouldn't protect each other that blatantly"? I don't understand your gameplan here in being so obviously fact-free with your attacks and defenses.
Uh. No. I specifically said I wouldn't switch my vote unless I had strong reason to believe it wouldn't result in a No Lynch. I was not given enough reason, so I did not switch my vote, which disallowed the CFD because there would not have been enough votes on you without me. This isn't complicated.
Why in the world do you think that specifically ignoring my request to explain why it's scummy, rather than repeatedly saying that it is with no reasoning, is somehow a good idea?
Yup.
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Because I felt bad and responsible for getting his wagon going? Despite what EL says, I feel like I was the one who really started that ball rolling. Sure it may be silly to think that, but I did. I am who I am, and sometimes I get too empathetic about these things.
KJs vote and reasoning for me are still bad though. It feels much more like he saw an easy mislynch Target in me and tried to rationalize it than genuinely believing the things he said about me and the wagon analysis
Vote: Killjoy
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@Anak: Don't worry, I wasn't trying to steal the credit from you and KZ. As I said, my vote got no traction until you two popped in. I just wanted to establish that I'd been scum-reading GF even pre-replacement, so that people don't think you guys pulled scum-reads out of thin air. GF and Blues were legitimately scummy, so that slot was an entirely understandable mislynch and I don't think casting suspicion on you two for starting the wagon is fair.
Not buying that KJ sees you as an "easy mislynch", though, given my interactions with him regarding KZ.
Re: Shadow tying to JeY, you are mostly right on that, although I didnt like the hammer vote. But without JeY's weird dance, he would be null with maybe a tiny scumlean.
Also, I don't like the assertion that Bluefruit was "genuinely scummy" as if it excuses your place on the wagon.(Or any buddies on the wagon.)
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
...Yeah, don't do that. Ever. Relying on mono-directional scum-buddying is how the Mafia traps you into mislynching someone that they framed.
Would you rather I say "That slot wasn't scummy and I have no idea why I voted it"? It was a scummy slot. People lynched it for being scummy. Wagon analysis is certainly acceptable, but I don't think it's fair to rail on Anak and KZ for pushing what was a very legitimate wagon. That's all.
Vote: JeY K
Does anyone agree with this?
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Anak, how do you feel about Tubba? I suggest disengaging and talking to someone else for a bit. It doesn't look like either of you are getting anywhere.
Specifically killjoy.
Shadowlancer just did this in Apocalypse and everyone thought he was town. Scum won. So yes I think scum would come in and draw attention if they want to.
@Kabazame: I like how you assume JeY and me are buddies and yet admit having no evidence of such whatsoever. The only reason players aren't voting you is because there are somehow scummier targets.
@Toast: I'm just saying if folks are overwhelmingly in favor of lynching JeY and I actually see some indication that this is SvT between JeY and EL, I would change my mind. The most recent interactions are making that case however.
Why?
vote jey k
I'm fine with my vote there.
The post about EL "coasting" with his BE read does it.
I feel like the tunnel on EL is an attempt to forgo any other reads, and easily coast.
*shrug* that and her overall posts feel.. scummy.
I can't do a PfP analysis or be all fancy with mafia logic and *****, because, well i am far behind in reading. But seeing her most recent post just makes me feel my read from her on d2 is justified.
Anyone trying to figure out why rhand was killed is wasting time and there is probably scum in the bunch trying to derail town. Sorry I haven't been posting content today. It's been a real hectic week or so and life is busy
But I resolve not to replace out. I feel it will complicate things more and god help anyone having to read EL's mega wallvomit.
I have no evidence linking you together, but that doesn't matter. You're both probably scum so by default you're probably buddies! I think people often try to hard to link the scum together when they're purposefully trying not to link themselves.
I agree Jey K should talk about something else. She's mostly talked about EL (weak arguments as well imo) and calling every back-and-forth bussing. Seems like she's trying to keep her options open... not many town reads either. Would support lynching her as well as Zionite. Not really feeling Lngr at the moment though, still leaning town
Don't you think it's a little disingenuous to describe my question about Pa's Killjoy vote as "Pa, why you vote for KJ?!?!". I know you wouldn't do anything shady, so I'll assume it was a simple slip up. I was seeking understanding of Pa's read. I feel the more information/perspective I have the better. If he had responded, it would've allowed me too review killjoy with that in mind.
@Pa
On the subject, what do you think about killjoy? You've brought him up several times, but iirc not really any reasons for it.
@Zionite
What was so bad about Vaimes vote?
I never called EL vs Pa Tennis or LnGrrrR bussing, so that's wrong. And every back and forth as in everyone debating ever? Or specifically with EL, because if you increase the scope you're undeniably wrong and possibly you stopped reading after D1.
Keeping my options open? What options am I keeping open? I've been pushing one lynch I strongly believe in, and most of 'I don't have a confident read's list are people who have come under scrutiny lately that I wanted to examine further.
If this isn't someone blatantly trying to push a mislynch I don't know what is.
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@Ecophagy: Please replace me.
Cantripmancer replaces EternalLurker