Hm. "following my townreads" isn't the worst reason to vote something. I dislike that [Vaimes] has nothing more substancial and he jumped on the largest town wagon for little reasoning. I'm gonna say... its kinda bad.
In a vacuum, it's kinda bad. In context, though, I think Vaimes not having yet had time to read the whole thread makes perfect sense there; his later posts make it clear that he's still catching up and developing clearer reads as he goes. I had no problem with that vote.
This little poke at Blue is one I don't like. She never revisits it, though.
Isn't poking to push a wagon, without getting on board, worse than the alternative? Not sure why the "though" at the end.
Thanks for putting those quotes all in one place. The shadow hammer looks to me like the least Townie rationale of everything you quoted (I detest Day One self-votes at least as much as shadow apparently does, but they're still generally NAI; it's threats of self-voting that are more likely to be scum-tells). But, since I'm otherwise Town-reading him, I'm still not all that worried about his hammer. Honestly (especially with things like JeY's jab as you noted), there's a definite possibility of this having been a totally Town wagon in terms of votes, perhaps helped along by non-voting scum.
I am genuinely sorry about how little I'm posting, hoping I'm making up for it with detail for the most part.
For the record, I've been quite satisfied with the amount of content you're putting out; post count doesn't tell the whole story at all. The vast majority of your posting is scum-reading KZ, and I think you're quite wrong on that front, but that's another matter.
Also, for the record, I was only slightly scum leaning on Grapefruit, willing to lynch him over a no lynch but much preferred other lynches, and when he self voted I was pretty sure he was town. I hammered for exactly the reasons I said, and I recognize that doing so prevented discussion on the subject. I stand by it, and would do it again.
You made the statement that "everyone on the wagon is town" prior to my vote. Justify all of them. Then answer to my points in my wagon analysis post: like why Grape was obvious scum in your eyes.
I think I talked plenty about why Grape was scum. Have also talked about my townreads. See here.
Though I don't think I mentioned Vaimes. Meta read because he posted instead of retreating into catchup mode.
Well, I think I quoted all the posts you had really referencing Grape as scum. And I'm still asking. So if you could reiterate, especially with reference to how it was obvious that he was scum, that would be good.
I'll read over your townreads post after work.
Hm. "following my townreads" isn't the worst reason to vote something. I dislike that [Vaimes] has nothing more substancial and he jumped on the largest town wagon for little reasoning. I'm gonna say... its kinda bad.
In a vacuum, it's kinda bad. In context, though, I think Vaimes not having yet had time to read the whole thread makes perfect sense there; his later posts make it clear that he's still catching up and developing clearer reads as he goes. I had no problem with that vote.
That's assuming we trust him, though. And I guess I kinda do, or rather I have no reason to distrust that that's true. You'll notice he's in the middle of my "worst to best" votes.
Isn't poking to push a wagon, without getting on board, worse than the alternative? Not sure why the "though" at the end.
I agree. She wasn't on the wagon though, so I made a little section for that, because it was something I noticed.
And IDK why the though is there. I guess it's just how I think?
Thanks for putting those quotes all in one place. The shadow hammer looks to me like the least Townie rationale of everything you quoted (I detest Day One self-votes at least as much as shadow apparently does, but they're still generally NAI; it's threats of self-voting that are more likely to be scum-tells). But, since I'm otherwise Town-reading him, I'm still not all that worried about his hammer. Honestly (especially with things like JeY's jab as you noted), there's a definite possibility of this having been a totally Town wagon in terms of votes, perhaps helped along by non-voting scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Can people other than those 4 tell me why they wouldn't make sense as a team?
My independent Town-read of KZ aside, obviously? Killjoy and Tubba look unaligned to me. Throwing an accusation at a scum-buddy who almost everyone else (except tentatively me) is Town-reading, in the last 24 hours before deadline so that everyone can spend all Night letting that reasoning sink in, seems like a terrible idea.
That said, if KJ is your weakest read out of them all, the other three are possible I s'pose. Removing Tubba instead of KJ probably works too. But I'm hard-Town-reading KZ and soft-Town-reading KJ, so independently I don't like that too much.
Bit busy atm, but will post later tonight regarding my top two scum-reads. (Pretty sure y'all know who those are.)
Also, @shadowlancerx, you're specifically noting a team of 4. Is that the accepted number of Maf for a 16-player game on this forum? It's definitely 3-5, but depending on roles it's possible to make 3 or 5 work as well. 3 would require strong Mafia roles, and 5 would require strong Town roles, but Rhand's role seemed to fit the latter to me so I wasn't ruling out a 5-man scum-team.
But then, IRL Mafia doesn't really do Inventor roles too much, so I may be overestimating that role's power.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So. Right now my primary issues are with JeY and Zionite.
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Here's the JeY situation as it currently stands. And I'm really regretting not allowing the CFD onto JeY yesterDay; this is perhaps my fault, cuz I did not wanna risk us trying and failing to CFD and getting a No Lynch in the process.
Some core issues about JeY from Rhand. Who, incidentally, was the most vocal anti-JeY voice on her wagon, before his untimely death. (Toast mostly voted JeY just to avoid wasting his vote, as KZ wasn't getting lynched yesterDay).
Right from the beginning, she's kept open her options for having whatever reads she wants without needing to back them up rationally. Look at posts like this, where she straight-up says (fifth paragraph) that "What looks like Town behavior is probably just someone trying to pretend to be Town". That statement boils down to "everything can be WIFOM", making it applicable to literally everything anyone ever says, and she thinks it gives her a free pass to discredit whatever doesn't fit her narrative, because she can rely on alleged "gut feelings" to "figure out" what's wine and what's not. She even claims later on that her vote-planting is in large part for emotional reasons, not rational ones. And she thinks I'm the one acting like I have inside info? Really?
She chooses one thing about which to be consistent (her focus on me) and everything else is just a tool to be created or discarded as necessary in order to push that angle. This is classic IRL-scum behavior, pretending to have a consistent viewpoint in the easiest way possible: focusing on one thing to keep consistent and letting everything else fall into place around it. It's hard to juggle a bunch of disparate conversational threads and remain consistent when you're lying, so this method makes it easier for IRL-scum players (who don't have the benefit of looking at their old posts before making new ones). And JeY herself is an IRL-Mafia player, so her use of that method is unsurprising.
Simple example of her inconsistency: in one post she says she has good feelings about shadow's post #104, and in literally her very next post she then attacks his #104 as being content-less. Another shadow-related example (she really seems to fence-sit when it comes to him) comes in post #480, where, despite having posted positively multiple times about shadow's contributions including in that very post, she still calls shadow a "non-entity". And the number of contradictions in her tunnel on me is just laughable; consider, fr'ex, how she makes a long post about me that mostly boils down to somehow scum-reading me just for my statement that I'm totally open and communicative, while Town-reading me for almost everything before that. Sounds like she considers that to be a pretty huge scum-tell, if it overrides everything that comes before. Yet it's okay when she says her posting style is 'nothing to hide'?
This post. Just...lol. It wasn't singlehandedly enough for me to turn over my Town-read of her at the time, but since my Town-read was based on admittedly dumb reasons, looking at that post with a fresh mind makes me agree even more with Rodemy's immediate reaction to it. It's particularly ironic when the first lynch of the game was one she wanted...on which note, let's talk about the Grapefruit lynch.
Until there's pressure on Grapefruit, JeY says almost nothing about him. But once the wagon starts building? Suddenly we get an unexplained "feeling Grapefruit as scum", and an absurd "KZ is bussing Grapefruit". And, in the same post, we get a claim that I'm trying to push a Grapefruit lynch without taking credit for it (despite being the very first vote on Grapefruit), when she's the one who wouldn't even attach her vote to her inexplicable new accusations. Where does she instead park her vote? On KZ, who's both the second-biggest wagon and the most vocal Grapefruit accuser. This is exactly what I'd expect scum to do in this situation: if she knows Grapefruit will flip Town, she sets up for a potential lynch on KZ the next Day, getting Town-cred in the process, and in the worst case scenario she just ends up pushing Town onto the secondary wagon which is probably also a Townie. There are certainly Town reasons to vote KZ in that situation, but doing so without a word of explanation in combination with her prior posts is not a Townie move.
In spite of all of this, I'm going to give JeY another chance to break out of the (probably-faked) tunnel on me, because something has come to my attention after toDay's events. Since Rhand's death has now illustrated that our role PMs are going to be publicized in full, rather than just our alignments and role-names, I suppose I can safely mention that my role PM does offer a bit of info about the setup, but in a vague manner that may very well be a red herring. Thus, I don't want to announce it because I could lead the Town on a wild goose chase, and now that I know it'll be automatically announced even if I die, I have no incentive to publicize it unless it becomes relevant. @JeY: I know you started making up new reasons to scum-read me after your initial "he has inside information" ploy never caught on, but even so, does this revelation help resolve that alleged concern you had?
Not that breaking out of her tunnel will even remotely help me Town-read her at this point, but at least it'd give her a chance to supply some actually useful reads before she's lynched or shot.
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My Zionite issues are perhaps not as severe as the JeY ones, but they're there. Many of them are in fact similar but weaker versions of the JeY problems, including his own extremely vague scum-reads on KZ before his own explanation-less vote on KZ, much like what JeY did. Turns out I don't have time tonight to post a wall on him, though! D'oh. Guess I'll get to him tomorrow.
Tennis and Rodemy have dropped into a fairly distant 3rd and 4th place on my scum-dar. Still keeping an eye on those two, but the top two are my priorities right now.
Still V/LA, but Vote JeY K. She spent all day calling Eternal scummy and was the only person she even tried to push on, but she gave up on it pretty quickly. Also, if JeY K flips scum, it all but confirms Shadow too. Look at all the early posts where she throws suspicion at Shadow, but then walks it back.
She is likely going to put out another wall on Eternal saying, "He is scum because feelings", then when nobody goes along with it, she will just sit there and continue to claim he is scum but not push it.
Still unsure of Kabazame, but I like JeY K less right now. Scum is somewhere in JeY, Shadow, Eternal, Kabazame, and Rodemy, but of all these, I think JeY has been the most active while doing the least.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm pretty sure I'm about to counter EternalLurker's wall by saying 'I'm bad at mafia' but the way he wrote that entire post I feel like there's no possible way that I could possibly argue that I'm town at this point. All of what he said must be indicative of scum behavior, what else can I say besides 'that's fine, I'm still town!'
I have no idea what I'm doing. I read what people say and I have a strong gut feel on who that person is (or is trying to be) and then.... that's it. I legitimately don't know how to explain what I see in terms of 'this is definitely something a mafia player would do' and its frustrating. I already attempted to do it once and now I feel like trying to do it again is a huge waste of time and then I'm going to get lynched anyway. I already made my points. If I die, I'm going to flip town and maybe then people will listen to what I was trying to say. I feel like that's going to be my only effect in this game.
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@EL's point that I don't think I need to back anything up: Broken record here, but I'M TRYING REALLY HARD TO FIGURE OUT HOW. For ****'s sake, from the beginning, it's not me consciously choosing to refuse to back anything up, but I can't do it. I don't know how. I know what I feel and I know what impressions I have and I can point to something and go "This is where I have a problem" but I can't for the life of me explain it. Even when I tried, I get hand-waved. This is honestly infuriating. Come back when you have something original to attack me with.
@EL's point of 'everything is WIFOM': Except you're wrong? Okay.
Your argument here sucks. I said you were scum, I still thought you were scum, I didn't move my vote because I didn't want to lynch anyone else, and I explained that even if I did think another scumspect was more likely to lynch this is why I'd be hesitant to move my vote. I never once thought you were solid town. I reset my opinion and attempted to build a second view of you from the ground up but it turned into a scumview again. Are you trying to say here that I voted you, but didn't actually want to be voting you anymore? Because that's wrong.
@EL's points about me and Shadow: I already explained I post stream-of-consciousness. My opinion has the ability to shift when more information is present. Just becuase you think I'm hopelessly tunneling you doesn't mean I'm incapable of adapting. Tell me there is not one single time you changed your opinion on someone in this game. OH WAIT. YOU CHANGED YOUR OPINION ABOUT ME. God, shut up.
@EL's point about me scumreading for being open and communicative and then me having 'nothing to hide': Notice that these are two entirely different things. They're related, like apples and oranges, but not the same thing. Not only that, you being 'open and communicative' was in a very long list of things when compounded together made you scum, not just the point by itself. Nice try.
@EL's point about me + Grapefruit: Okay that's entirely wrong. Go read my reaction to BluesEclipse. And when Grapefruit replaced in, it was the same thing. I'll admit, I was getting skeptical of my own read toward the end of the day but I didn't say anything because it wouldn't change anything. I voted Kabazame because I felt better about lynching them instead of Grapefruit: it really was that plain in simple. I didn't know anything about Grapefruit's alignment but we can argue that until the end of time the only proof would be my death.
@EL's question: No.
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It's dawning on me that this is the nonsense EternalLurker did to get Grapefruit mislynched and now it's going to happen to me. He got a wagon going on Grapefruit and then minded his own business, and now it's me. Two low hanging fruits in a row. Except now he isn't voting me. Bastard. Get your vote on me like you mean it D:<
EternalLurker also posted about night-killing someone who wouldn't bear a lot of interaction fruit, and I feel like Rhand qualifies because not only was he relatively inactive, his last serious push was against me, potentially setting up another mislynch.
Why Tubba over myself or Kabaz, who assisted in the mislynch of Grape? Why aren't we more likely scum than someone on the wagon?
Can you explain that second line to me, was it a mistype?
As far as why Tubba, he was my strongest scum read yesterday, and he starts off today by throwing shade and soft defending you, so doing nothing to alleviate the scum vibes coming from him. Additionally, I'm not a huge user of wagonomics, other people have made great points with them, but they are inherently flawed because scum know they exist too.
@EL: I would be very surprised if we had a scum team that was 3 or 5, especially since it's a normal game. Don't overestimate an inventor, it's a great role, but also dependent on the reads of the person playing it, giving it some built in balance.
@Jey: I wouldn't support a lynch on you today, does that count?
@EL: regarding your point about Jey saying anything could come from scum, do you inherently disagree? Because that opinion in and of itself shouldn't make you think she's scum unless you actively think there are townie behaviors that no scum could fake and that she is ignoring those.
@Shadow
If by throwing shade, you mean pointing out that the nightkill was actively pushing against someone that I'm strongly scum reading, then yeah, I'm throwing all sorts of shade. All I'm getting from you is that you don't like me scum reading JeY, why?
@JeY
Do you have a response to this? Or did you give it privately?
in any way qualify as anything but throwing shade. This doesn't help you solve Jey's alignment, it just pokes at her. Also, why didn't you vote her here?
It was a poke. I'm interested in how JeY reacts to it. At this point, I'm pretty well locked onto her alignment. Now, I need interaction to help make the case for a lynch to others. If I can't hunt scum and try to get them lynched, and I can't sit back and not post about anything, and I can't question why someone is voting someone else with no background, what am I supposed to do?
I was at first scum reading shadow for that hammer, but I think I'm wrong. Apparently it wasn't as obvious to everyone else Grape was town. And I can't hold him solely accountable without questioning everyone else who voted Grape. In that sense, Shadow's reason was probably most justified. However, that proposed scum list is garbage. Why would I be buddies with the few players I actually have interactions with, and negative ones? I've questioned both KZ and Tubba for various things, choosing them over other players to interact with. Why would we be buddies? Or is this like how me and Grape are buddies?
Either you're scum or not trying.
I'm really not liking this tongue in cheek vote from Vaimes, or the shade from KZ, without taking the vote count or the timing into consideration. I said I'd be back, but I never had a chance to do anything. You'd think they'd have better reads with two flips, but neither attempts to take this into account. Weak.
I'll do a reread now with Rhand as a focus. I didn't peg him for power role so I want to see if perhaps he was targeted on purpose or more randomly. I also don't like Killjoy's "BlueGrape" word usage, so I'll be closely looking at him, too. JeY is probably town. EL is likely town.
if JeY K flips scum, it all but confirms Shadow too. Look at all the early posts where she throws suspicion at Shadow, but then walks it back.
Wait. You mean a JeY scum-flip confirms shadow as Mafia rather than as Town? You'll have to walk me through that, cuz I am definitely not seeing that.
I'm not really seeing any lock-worthy shadow-reads based on a JeY flip in either direction, honestly. (I think her scum-buddies distanced themselves from her very early on, when it became clear that she'd have trouble pushing her mislynches and probably get caught while trying.) But I'm definitely not seeing "JeY scum = shadow scum".
@EL: regarding your point about Jey saying anything could come from scum, do you inherently disagree? Because that opinion in and of itself shouldn't make you think she's scum unless you actively think there are townie behaviors that no scum could fake and that she is ignoring those.
That one post doesn't singlehandedly make me think she's scum. The problem is that it's part of a constant pattern of behavior in which she routinely claims, even within the same post, that conflicting Town-tells and Mafia-tells should just be resolved by everyone trusting her gut feelings (rather than by actually weighing the two options and seeing which tells are more frequent, or more strongly AI). That makes it extremely easy for her to push any mislynch she wants without proper rationale -- or would, if she'd had enough Town-cred to be able to do it. Which, unsurprisingly, was a strategy that was squarely in her thoughts.
If I die, I'm going to flip town and maybe then people will listen to what I was trying to say. I feel like that's going to be my only effect in this game.
It's ironic that, in this case, that's already happened with two people who just made me pay more attention to you. Rhand had a solid case, and Grapefruit actually believed you were scum so strongly that he voted you over the much more viable counter-wagon of Kabazame, despite having also been scum-reading KZ.
@EL's point that I don't think I need to back anything up: Broken record here, but I'M TRYING REALLY HARD TO FIGURE OUT HOW.
Failing to back up your points is not the problem. Refusing to do so is. When you specifically respond to questions about other people's Town-reads with "that's all just wine", that isn't even an attempt at evidence. On which note...
I don't think the other town claims have a lack of merit. I see where they're coming from, but as someone who consistently plays anti-meta or meta-breaking in whatever competitive event I'm part of, meta town behavior =/= guaranteed town. You can ask, 'Why would scum EternalLuker do X, Y and Z?' and the answer would be 'Well, it made you think he was town didn't it?'
After you referenced it yesterDay, I found it and read it. That's why I know it doesn't make sense for you to hide behind that history. That was a completely different situation. There, you derailed a wagon on near-confirmed scum by unvoting and encouraging people to search for other scum. Here, there was no wagon on me to derail in the first place, only two other people were even floating the idea of me being Mafia, and you didn't show any interest in searching for scum anywhere else (as previously discussed). So your alleged "flashbacks" would be emotional responses at best (if you're not just hiding behind them), not rational ones, because the situation isn't comparable.
My statement had nothing to do with your read on me; I'm well aware you never thought I was Town (except briefly in the middle of your posts, where it's convenient to pretend for a second that you're not tunneled). It's just that your reference to a completely different situation was either a non-sequitur distraction or an admission that you're emotionally tunneled rather than rationally locked to a scum-read.
@EL's points about me and Shadow: I already explained I post stream-of-consciousness. My opinion has the ability to shift when more information is present. Just becuase you think I'm hopelessly tunneling you doesn't mean I'm incapable of adapting. Tell me there is not one single time you changed your opinion on someone in this game. OH WAIT. YOU CHANGED YOUR OPINION ABOUT ME. God, shut up.
Cute. Changing my opinion after pages upon pages of scummy posts from you is totally the same as you flip-flopping on your reads within minutes. The former is discovering the story; the latter is pushing a story.
@EL's point about me scumreading for being open and communicative and then me having 'nothing to hide': Notice that these are two entirely different things. They're related, like apples and oranges, but not the same thing. Not only that, you being 'open and communicative' was in a very long list of things when compounded together made you scum, not just the point by itself. Nice try.
Feel free to explain how they're "entirely different things", and while you're at it maybe you could explain why you totally ignored what I actually said there...which was that you weren't posting a "long list of things [which] when compounded together made [me] scum", but rather just posted a list of mostly-Townie things and then said "this suddenly overrides everything else I just listed". I stated that pretty clearly, and I'm not the only person who made that observation (fifth paragraph).
@EL's point about me + Grapefruit: Okay that's entirely wrong. Go read my reaction to BluesEclipse.
I did. That's why I said "almost" nothing. Cuz there was something, but it was a poke from an incredibly safe range, an attempt to test the waters without stepping in. And, again, I'm not the only one who thinks that (bottom of post).
It's dawning on me that this is the nonsense EternalLurker did to get Grapefruit mislynched and now it's going to happen to me. He got a wagon going on Grapefruit and then minded his own business, and now it's me. Two low hanging fruits in a row.
Is...is your argument seriously that "EL is scum-hunting the scummiest people instead of scum-hunting the Towniest people, how dare he"?
Blues was being scum-read by literally no one else when I initiated the accusation on him, and he was still ignored after my vote, until Grapefruit replaced in and almost immediately earned two votes from Anak and KZ; that you define this as "[EL] got a wagon going on Grapefruit" is mind-boggling. Plus, I most certainly did not "mind my own business" after the wagon started: I was quite involved at end of Day, as even a cursory read of the thread will immediately indicate. (My involvement was mostly in preventing the KZ counter-wagon from taking off, and in blocking a CFD onto you, both of which made Grapefruit the inevitable lynch, and the latter of which I regret immensely.)
So your "facts" are just blatantly wrong. Again. Care to try actually explaining how I was "targeting a low-hanging fruit", as you've now claimed multiple times? Or is this another one of those things you're going to keep repeating while claiming you're unable to explain it but everyone should just believe it?
Except now he isn't voting me. Bastard. Get your vote on me like you mean it D:<
I was gonna do my wall on Zionite tonight and see if I actually preferred voting him to you, before making up my mind. Don't worry, though: the chance of that plummets with every post you make.
Actually, at this point the chance is fairly close to 0% (mostly but not entirely because of you), so Vote: JeY K if that makes you happy.
EternalLurker also posted about night-killing someone who wouldn't bear a lot of interaction fruit, and I feel like Rhand qualifies
Actually, we were discussing lynches, not Night-Kills. And you made a big deal of saying how you agreed with my point on the subject. Which looks awfully strange now that you're suddenly trying to use a statement with which you concurred against me, despite it therefore being just as applicable to you. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time you tried something like that.
@EternalLurker Excellent; If it takes me dying to get you lynched I'm all for it. Thanks for that post.
@Tubba Fett Your recent posts suggest I haven't responded to you yet, when I actually did. It was a two word response so probably easy to miss. It was my post before my latest reply to EternalLurker.
Liking Pa Tennis less recently. Nothing I can point out yet, the feeling will prompt me to go over some material.
I don't have time for the legwork presently but coming soon to a theater near you: why I think EternalLurker was scum on that train.
@Tubba Fett I don't. Privately?
@shadowlancerx Because EternalLurker isn't on it But in honesty, no.
This is the response you're referencing? Where you pretend to not know what I'm talking about? Where you ignore all the questions and concerns rhand brought up? Yeah, it was pretty easy to miss, but I'll gladly bring it back to light.
@JeY: If you're gonna resign yourself to getting lynched, you could at least try to leave us some actually useful info before you go. Perhaps by, ya know, trying to scum-hunt? We're two deaths in and you have one living scum-read (after GF's death), one which almost nobody thinks is properly supported by evidence. If you're actually Town, this is your chance to prove it by helping, instead of rolling over and dying.
pre-post edit: and now she claims I've been tunneled on her, while also trying to claim that I was the cause of the Grapefruit wagon. This is why I've said she isn't even trying to make sense.
Do you even have a reads-list, JeY? You've asked me for mine, and I've given it multiple times, but you've never given one. You haven't even bothered saying who your stronger Town-reads are except to conveniently call Tennis your "Towniest read" in exactly one post, in which you used that to tunnel even further onto me by saying "my scummiest read is voting my Towniest read". And now you've abandoned that read too. As far as I can tell, you've had two significant reads all game: "EL is scum" and "various people are scum with EL, depending on my mood at the time".
This is the response you're referencing? Where you pretend to not know what I'm talking about? Where you ignore all the questions and concerns rhand brought up? Yeah, it was pretty easy to miss, but I'll gladly bring it back to light.
Are you paying attention? You asked if I had a response to Rhand's case. My answer, for now the third time (including your quote): "I don't [have a response to Rhand's post]".
Pretend to not know what you're talking about? I'm asking you to clarify. How the hell would I speak to Rhand privately? Are you aware that doing so is against the rules? You can clearly see he's not a Mason/Neighbor, which means two townies can talk privately outside the game.
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EternalLurker's post made me laugh. Depending on my mood?
So apparently when you suspect someone is scum, that's not tunneling, but when I do it, it is? Today I Learned.
Why does everyone forget I'm scum-reading Kabazame, too?
Okay, giving EternalLurker his dose of my agony has put me in a better mood. Sorry about that, I was getting really upset with the recent stream of nonsense. My most recent posts shouldn't really be taken entirely seriously.
Let me real talk though; I have dinner plans tonight and plans throughout the weekend, so I can't really put any time into anything substantial soon. And, to be blunt, I am not going to be wanting to play Mafia Friday night. I'll try to look at the thread, keep up with posts and answer questions throughout but that's all I can give for now.
Deadline was for a couple weeks tough? I think? So I'm willing to put in some actual work and try to find something concrete to back up what I've noticed about certain players starting Monday.
@EL, don't have time to post the quotes but I think if JeY=scum then Shadow=scum for two reasons.
1) Look over JeYs posts re:Shadow. She is constantly implying he is scum, but never really goes anywhere with it or pushes it. In fact, one person calls her out on it and then she says something to the effect of, "I don't know why I think Shadow is scummy but I am sure I will figure it out when I reread him."
2) That counter wagon on GF escalated way too quickly. Thus is why I wouldnt be surprised if Kaba, JeY and Shadow were a team. There is a wagon on Kaba that goes nowhere, even with Toast making a solid case. Then a counterwagon starts on fellow scum Jey. In order to prevent the lynch, JeY swings over to GF blindly, and then when GF self votes in frustration, Shadow hammers quickly before anyone can talk GF out of the self vote.
I could be reading it wrong, as both Vaimes and Rhand saw that as a very townie move, but I think it is way too suspicious to have a rant and create a brand new "policy" that just happens to hammer a townie.
I also think JeY is bussing because I think she unintentionally brought it up earlier mostly unforced, and then had that weird "double bus power" comment which might be an unintentional admission that Kaba is scum wjth her. (I know, it wasn't a bus since GF was town, but I still think the slip that Kaba is also scum might be valid.)
And FWIW, you're still on my more scummy than not list, but if you are going to bus one of your own kind then I am fine with it as the rest of the town isnt stupid and "confirms" you as town for it. Plus, I could be wrong. *shrug*
@JeY, ok, walk me through this. The majority of town feel that EL is town. But you vite him anyways, while providing no real argument until... some future time.
You also say you're scum reading Kabazame, who multiple people also belive is scum (Toast, myself, more I am forgetting). So why did you vite EL, who doesn't have any momentum, over Kabazame, who you also feel is scum and has already had a push on him?
Sorry for my vote yesterday, I'm absolute ***** at making and pushing wagons, so this time I had a read on GF and I just stuck to my guns about it. The conviction came from me trying to be strong about my read instead of shooting myself in the foot yet again. Unfortunately I was wrong, but my read was genuine I really disliked GFs vote of KZ and liked his response to pressure even less.
KJ I don't get your wagon analysis. You call my vote bad, KZs vote was almost as bad as mine, yet my vote was the worst and his was the second best?
Jeys frustration feels genuine, but I'm not sure what that means for her alignment. Which is a fun place to be
@JeY, ok, walk me through this. The majority of town feel that EL is town. But you vite him anyways, while providing no real argument until... some future time.
You also say you're scum reading Kabazame, who multiple people also belive is scum (Toast, myself, more I am forgetting). So why did you vite EL, who doesn't have any momentum, over Kabazame, who you also feel is scum and has already had a push on him?
Majority of town is wrong.
I'm okay with a Kabazame lynch but I want an EternalLurker lynch. That's the difference.
This is the response you're referencing? Where you pretend to not know what I'm talking about? Where you ignore all the questions and concerns rhand brought up? Yeah, it was pretty easy to miss, but I'll gladly bring it back to light.
Are you paying attention? You asked if I had a response to Rhand's case. My answer, for now the third time (including your quote): "I don't [have a response to Rhand's post]".
Pretend to not know what you're talking about? I'm asking you to clarify. How the hell would I speak to Rhand privately? Are you aware that doing so is against the rules? You can clearly see he's not a Mason/Neighbor, which means two townies can talk privately outside the game.
Ok, I actually wasn't really aware of that, but I'm implying you killed or had him killed last night as your response to his post.
What I'm asking, and I say this bluntly but in no way in an unkind tone, is do you, as town, have the confidence to lock-town read me this game, based on behavior, after you lost the last game in large part because you town read me there?
@Shadow, what do you think about JeY's interactions with you?
I don't know what you're looking for by asking me this. Like, you say you think we're aligned, but my reaction to you still stands "-_-" translated as "are you confused?" But what do you expect me to say? Yeah, I'm not scum so what she's doing and how she's reading me is her prerogative. I still stand by my earlier statement that she's not going to be able to call me scum with a straight face the longer this game goes, because I'm not and I'm not particularly concerned that that will be a big issue.
*sigh* I missed this post. My primary reservation about dogpiling onto Grapefruit was that my third-place scum-read followed suit shortly thereafter without stating any reasons (until pressed), and now exactly the same thing is happening again.
I need to reread and see if Tennis' blatant buddying up to me has actually continued unabated since I first noted it, cuz this is becoming impossible to ignore. Unvote in the meantime. I wasn't quite as concerned about it when I thought it was possibly a new player following the most vocal Townie's lead, but now that I know (and shadow's post #553 just reminded me) that he's not actually new... {:^#{{
Of course, JeY responded with a gross appeal-to-emotion attempt when I tried to get some actual contributions out of her, as expected. That looks like the final nail in the coffin for me ever caring about any of her reads, regardless of her alignment (cuz she's either not-even-trying-to-hide scum or not-even-trying-to-help Town). Which is...problematic. But I need to sort out the Tennis issue before I put my vote anywhere. Rereading as soon as I have time this weekend.
Honestly, I'm probably still voting JeY and her incessant scumminess even if Tennis looks scummy on reread, cuz this is the kind of situation where both of them being scum is plausible, even likely. (Maf already won a mislynch and shot a PR, so this is a pretty safe time for a bus to get some Town-cred; he's not providing reasons for changing his vote from Killjoy, with whom he'd been engaged in discussion at the time and who is listed as his top scum-read; one of JeY's typical evidence-less statements early on was that Tennis was her "Towniest read"; etc.) But we'll see.
@shadowlancerx: While I normally don't care about meta, it becomes more interesting when someone is intentionally trying to hide it, as Tennis is doing. He's not just having fun with a different account; he was clearly trying to pretend he wasn't familiar with this forum:
I'm currently figuring out what exactly constitutes being random or serious in this meta.
So, whaddaya think about Tennis' play based on your prior experience with him, and do you think anything has changed notably in his playstyle since post #341, after which he no longer had reason to hide his identity?
Thanks for putting those quotes all in one place. The shadow hammer looks to me like the least Townie rationale of everything you quoted (I detest Day One self-votes at least as much as shadow apparently does, but they're still generally NAI; it's threats of self-voting that are more likely to be scum-tells). But, since I'm otherwise Town-reading him, I'm still not all that worried about his hammer. Honestly (especially with things like JeY's jab as you noted), there's a definite possibility of this having been a totally Town wagon in terms of votes, perhaps helped along by non-voting scum. To be fair, I was the first vote on Grapefruit (before he replaced in). For the record, I've been quite satisfied with the amount of content you're putting out; post count doesn't tell the whole story at all. The vast majority of your posting is scum-reading KZ, and I think you're quite wrong on that front, but that's another matter.
Tubba
Kabaz
Possibly KJ
Can people other than those 4 tell me why they wouldn't make sense as a team?
Vote Tubba Fett
I'll read over your townreads post after work.
That's assuming we trust him, though. And I guess I kinda do, or rather I have no reason to distrust that that's true. You'll notice he's in the middle of my "worst to best" votes.
I agree. She wasn't on the wagon though, so I made a little section for that, because it was something I noticed.
And IDK why the though is there. I guess it's just how I think?
Yeah, like I said, he's probably town.
Why Tubba over myself or Kabaz, who assisted in the mislynch of Grape? Why aren't we more likely scum than someone on the wagon?
That said, if KJ is your weakest read out of them all, the other three are possible I s'pose. Removing Tubba instead of KJ probably works too. But I'm hard-Town-reading KZ and soft-Town-reading KJ, so independently I don't like that too much.
Bit busy atm, but will post later tonight regarding my top two scum-reads. (Pretty sure y'all know who those are.)
But then, IRL Mafia doesn't really do Inventor roles too much, so I may be overestimating that role's power.
I don't have time for the legwork presently but coming soon to a theater near you: why I think EternalLurker was scum on that train.
@Tubba Fett I don't. Privately?
@shadowlancerx Because EternalLurker isn't on it But in honesty, no.
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Guess that slot isn't town!
Vote: Zionite
(This is mostly tongue-in-cheek.)
V/la til mondayish
Otakon!!!
This have anything to do with it?
Vote JeY
So. Right now my primary issues are with JeY and Zionite.
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Here's the JeY situation as it currently stands. And I'm really regretting not allowing the CFD onto JeY yesterDay; this is perhaps my fault, cuz I did not wanna risk us trying and failing to CFD and getting a No Lynch in the process.
Some core issues about JeY from Rhand. Who, incidentally, was the most vocal anti-JeY voice on her wagon, before his untimely death. (Toast mostly voted JeY just to avoid wasting his vote, as KZ wasn't getting lynched yesterDay).
Right from the beginning, she's kept open her options for having whatever reads she wants without needing to back them up rationally. Look at posts like this, where she straight-up says (fifth paragraph) that "What looks like Town behavior is probably just someone trying to pretend to be Town". That statement boils down to "everything can be WIFOM", making it applicable to literally everything anyone ever says, and she thinks it gives her a free pass to discredit whatever doesn't fit her narrative, because she can rely on alleged "gut feelings" to "figure out" what's wine and what's not. She even claims later on that her vote-planting is in large part for emotional reasons, not rational ones. And she thinks I'm the one acting like I have inside info? Really?
She chooses one thing about which to be consistent (her focus on me) and everything else is just a tool to be created or discarded as necessary in order to push that angle. This is classic IRL-scum behavior, pretending to have a consistent viewpoint in the easiest way possible: focusing on one thing to keep consistent and letting everything else fall into place around it. It's hard to juggle a bunch of disparate conversational threads and remain consistent when you're lying, so this method makes it easier for IRL-scum players (who don't have the benefit of looking at their old posts before making new ones). And JeY herself is an IRL-Mafia player, so her use of that method is unsurprising.
Simple example of her inconsistency: in one post she says she has good feelings about shadow's post #104, and in literally her very next post she then attacks his #104 as being content-less. Another shadow-related example (she really seems to fence-sit when it comes to him) comes in post #480, where, despite having posted positively multiple times about shadow's contributions including in that very post, she still calls shadow a "non-entity". And the number of contradictions in her tunnel on me is just laughable; consider, fr'ex, how she makes a long post about me that mostly boils down to somehow scum-reading me just for my statement that I'm totally open and communicative, while Town-reading me for almost everything before that. Sounds like she considers that to be a pretty huge scum-tell, if it overrides everything that comes before. Yet it's okay when she says her posting style is 'nothing to hide'?
This post. Just...lol. It wasn't singlehandedly enough for me to turn over my Town-read of her at the time, but since my Town-read was based on admittedly dumb reasons, looking at that post with a fresh mind makes me agree even more with Rodemy's immediate reaction to it. It's particularly ironic when the first lynch of the game was one she wanted...on which note, let's talk about the Grapefruit lynch.
Until there's pressure on Grapefruit, JeY says almost nothing about him. But once the wagon starts building? Suddenly we get an unexplained "feeling Grapefruit as scum", and an absurd "KZ is bussing Grapefruit". And, in the same post, we get a claim that I'm trying to push a Grapefruit lynch without taking credit for it (despite being the very first vote on Grapefruit), when she's the one who wouldn't even attach her vote to her inexplicable new accusations. Where does she instead park her vote? On KZ, who's both the second-biggest wagon and the most vocal Grapefruit accuser. This is exactly what I'd expect scum to do in this situation: if she knows Grapefruit will flip Town, she sets up for a potential lynch on KZ the next Day, getting Town-cred in the process, and in the worst case scenario she just ends up pushing Town onto the secondary wagon which is probably also a Townie. There are certainly Town reasons to vote KZ in that situation, but doing so without a word of explanation in combination with her prior posts is not a Townie move.
In spite of all of this, I'm going to give JeY another chance to break out of the (probably-faked) tunnel on me, because something has come to my attention after toDay's events. Since Rhand's death has now illustrated that our role PMs are going to be publicized in full, rather than just our alignments and role-names, I suppose I can safely mention that my role PM does offer a bit of info about the setup, but in a vague manner that may very well be a red herring. Thus, I don't want to announce it because I could lead the Town on a wild goose chase, and now that I know it'll be automatically announced even if I die, I have no incentive to publicize it unless it becomes relevant. @JeY: I know you started making up new reasons to scum-read me after your initial "he has inside information" ploy never caught on, but even so, does this revelation help resolve that alleged concern you had?
Not that breaking out of her tunnel will even remotely help me Town-read her at this point, but at least it'd give her a chance to supply some actually useful reads before she's lynched or shot.
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My Zionite issues are perhaps not as severe as the JeY ones, but they're there. Many of them are in fact similar but weaker versions of the JeY problems, including his own extremely vague scum-reads on KZ before his own explanation-less vote on KZ, much like what JeY did. Turns out I don't have time tonight to post a wall on him, though! D'oh. Guess I'll get to him tomorrow.
Tennis and Rodemy have dropped into a fairly distant 3rd and 4th place on my scum-dar. Still keeping an eye on those two, but the top two are my priorities right now.
She is likely going to put out another wall on Eternal saying, "He is scum because feelings", then when nobody goes along with it, she will just sit there and continue to claim he is scum but not push it.
Still unsure of Kabazame, but I like JeY K less right now. Scum is somewhere in JeY, Shadow, Eternal, Kabazame, and Rodemy, but of all these, I think JeY has been the most active while doing the least.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Toast-Kabazame-Anak-Vaimes-Tubba
NULL - Zionite-Lngrr
Rodemy
SCUM - Jey-Killjoy
Not a whole lot of change from yesterday.
Locking in Shadow for that hammer.
Killjoy looks like the most likely scum on the grapefruit wagon. And I feel like he's actively misunderstanding me.
I'm pretty sure I'm about to counter EternalLurker's wall by saying 'I'm bad at mafia' but the way he wrote that entire post I feel like there's no possible way that I could possibly argue that I'm town at this point. All of what he said must be indicative of scum behavior, what else can I say besides 'that's fine, I'm still town!'
I have no idea what I'm doing. I read what people say and I have a strong gut feel on who that person is (or is trying to be) and then.... that's it. I legitimately don't know how to explain what I see in terms of 'this is definitely something a mafia player would do' and its frustrating. I already attempted to do it once and now I feel like trying to do it again is a huge waste of time and then I'm going to get lynched anyway. I already made my points. If I die, I'm going to flip town and maybe then people will listen to what I was trying to say. I feel like that's going to be my only effect in this game.
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@EL's point that I don't think I need to back anything up: Broken record here, but I'M TRYING REALLY HARD TO FIGURE OUT HOW. For ****'s sake, from the beginning, it's not me consciously choosing to refuse to back anything up, but I can't do it. I don't know how. I know what I feel and I know what impressions I have and I can point to something and go "This is where I have a problem" but I can't for the life of me explain it. Even when I tried, I get hand-waved. This is honestly infuriating. Come back when you have something original to attack me with.
@EL's point of 'everything is WIFOM': Except you're wrong? Okay.
@EL's point about me vote planting emotionally: A game made me upset enough to quit for 3 years. Here, read for yourself how charged I was: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/561456-experiment-2-pope-mafia-game-blessedly-over?page=19. I'll wait.
Your argument here sucks. I said you were scum, I still thought you were scum, I didn't move my vote because I didn't want to lynch anyone else, and I explained that even if I did think another scumspect was more likely to lynch this is why I'd be hesitant to move my vote. I never once thought you were solid town. I reset my opinion and attempted to build a second view of you from the ground up but it turned into a scumview again. Are you trying to say here that I voted you, but didn't actually want to be voting you anymore? Because that's wrong.
@EL's points about me and Shadow: I already explained I post stream-of-consciousness. My opinion has the ability to shift when more information is present. Just becuase you think I'm hopelessly tunneling you doesn't mean I'm incapable of adapting. Tell me there is not one single time you changed your opinion on someone in this game. OH WAIT. YOU CHANGED YOUR OPINION ABOUT ME. God, shut up.
@EL's point about me scumreading for being open and communicative and then me having 'nothing to hide': Notice that these are two entirely different things. They're related, like apples and oranges, but not the same thing. Not only that, you being 'open and communicative' was in a very long list of things when compounded together made you scum, not just the point by itself. Nice try.
@EL's point about me + Grapefruit: Okay that's entirely wrong. Go read my reaction to BluesEclipse. And when Grapefruit replaced in, it was the same thing. I'll admit, I was getting skeptical of my own read toward the end of the day but I didn't say anything because it wouldn't change anything. I voted Kabazame because I felt better about lynching them instead of Grapefruit: it really was that plain in simple. I didn't know anything about Grapefruit's alignment but we can argue that until the end of time the only proof would be my death.
@EL's question: No.
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It's dawning on me that this is the nonsense EternalLurker did to get Grapefruit mislynched and now it's going to happen to me. He got a wagon going on Grapefruit and then minded his own business, and now it's me. Two low hanging fruits in a row. Except now he isn't voting me. Bastard. Get your vote on me like you mean it D:<
EternalLurker also posted about night-killing someone who wouldn't bear a lot of interaction fruit, and I feel like Rhand qualifies because not only was he relatively inactive, his last serious push was against me, potentially setting up another mislynch.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
I'm going to ask this again.
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As far as why Tubba, he was my strongest scum read yesterday, and he starts off today by throwing shade and soft defending you, so doing nothing to alleviate the scum vibes coming from him. Additionally, I'm not a huge user of wagonomics, other people have made great points with them, but they are inherently flawed because scum know they exist too.
@EL: I would be very surprised if we had a scum team that was 3 or 5, especially since it's a normal game. Don't overestimate an inventor, it's a great role, but also dependent on the reads of the person playing it, giving it some built in balance. SNAAAAKKKKE!!!
@Lingerer: -_-
@Pa: Why aren't you more leery of me?
@Jey: I wouldn't support a lynch on you today, does that count?
@EL: regarding your point about Jey saying anything could come from scum, do you inherently disagree? Because that opinion in and of itself shouldn't make you think she's scum unless you actively think there are townie behaviors that no scum could fake and that she is ignoring those.
If by throwing shade, you mean pointing out that the nightkill was actively pushing against someone that I'm strongly scum reading, then yeah, I'm throwing all sorts of shade. All I'm getting from you is that you don't like me scum reading JeY, why?
Either you're scum or not trying.
I'm really not liking this tongue in cheek vote from Vaimes, or the shade from KZ, without taking the vote count or the timing into consideration. I said I'd be back, but I never had a chance to do anything. You'd think they'd have better reads with two flips, but neither attempts to take this into account. Weak.
I'll do a reread now with Rhand as a focus. I didn't peg him for power role so I want to see if perhaps he was targeted on purpose or more randomly. I also don't like Killjoy's "BlueGrape" word usage, so I'll be closely looking at him, too. JeY is probably town. EL is likely town.
can you elaborate on this? I don't see a town read on Jey. I see at best null and at worst scum.
@shadow Should I be?
I'm not really seeing any lock-worthy shadow-reads based on a JeY flip in either direction, honestly. (I think her scum-buddies distanced themselves from her very early on, when it became clear that she'd have trouble pushing her mislynches and probably get caught while trying.) But I'm definitely not seeing "JeY scum = shadow scum". Killjoy's understanding would probably be assisted by you giving better answers. That one post doesn't singlehandedly make me think she's scum. The problem is that it's part of a constant pattern of behavior in which she routinely claims, even within the same post, that conflicting Town-tells and Mafia-tells should just be resolved by everyone trusting her gut feelings (rather than by actually weighing the two options and seeing which tells are more frequent, or more strongly AI). That makes it extremely easy for her to push any mislynch she wants without proper rationale -- or would, if she'd had enough Town-cred to be able to do it. Which, unsurprisingly, was a strategy that was squarely in her thoughts. ...what even is this o_O
My statement had nothing to do with your read on me; I'm well aware you never thought I was Town (except briefly in the middle of your posts, where it's convenient to pretend for a second that you're not tunneled). It's just that your reference to a completely different situation was either a non-sequitur distraction or an admission that you're emotionally tunneled rather than rationally locked to a scum-read. Cute. Changing my opinion after pages upon pages of scummy posts from you is totally the same as you flip-flopping on your reads within minutes. The former is discovering the story; the latter is pushing a story. Feel free to explain how they're "entirely different things", and while you're at it maybe you could explain why you totally ignored what I actually said there...which was that you weren't posting a "long list of things [which] when compounded together made [me] scum", but rather just posted a list of mostly-Townie things and then said "this suddenly overrides everything else I just listed". I stated that pretty clearly, and I'm not the only person who made that observation (fifth paragraph). I did. That's why I said "almost" nothing. Cuz there was something, but it was a poke from an incredibly safe range, an attempt to test the waters without stepping in. And, again, I'm not the only one who thinks that (bottom of post). Worth a try, in case you weren't scum. Guess that answers that. Is...is your argument seriously that "EL is scum-hunting the scummiest people instead of scum-hunting the Towniest people, how dare he"?
Blues was being scum-read by literally no one else when I initiated the accusation on him, and he was still ignored after my vote, until Grapefruit replaced in and almost immediately earned two votes from Anak and KZ; that you define this as "[EL] got a wagon going on Grapefruit" is mind-boggling. Plus, I most certainly did not "mind my own business" after the wagon started: I was quite involved at end of Day, as even a cursory read of the thread will immediately indicate. (My involvement was mostly in preventing the KZ counter-wagon from taking off, and in blocking a CFD onto you, both of which made Grapefruit the inevitable lynch, and the latter of which I regret immensely.)
So your "facts" are just blatantly wrong. Again. Care to try actually explaining how I was "targeting a low-hanging fruit", as you've now claimed multiple times? Or is this another one of those things you're going to keep repeating while claiming you're unable to explain it but everyone should just believe it? I was gonna do my wall on Zionite tonight and see if I actually preferred voting him to you, before making up my mind. Don't worry, though: the chance of that plummets with every post you make.
Actually, at this point the chance is fairly close to 0% (mostly but not entirely because of you), so Vote: JeY K if that makes you happy. Actually, we were discussing lynches, not Night-Kills. And you made a big deal of saying how you agreed with my point on the subject. Which looks awfully strange now that you're suddenly trying to use a statement with which you concurred against me, despite it therefore being just as applicable to you. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time you tried something like that.
@Tubba Fett Your recent posts suggest I haven't responded to you yet, when I actually did. It was a two word response so probably easy to miss. It was my post before my latest reply to EternalLurker.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
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This is the response you're referencing? Where you pretend to not know what I'm talking about? Where you ignore all the questions and concerns rhand brought up? Yeah, it was pretty easy to miss, but I'll gladly bring it back to light.
pre-post edit: and now she claims I've been tunneled on her, while also trying to claim that I was the cause of the Grapefruit wagon. This is why I've said she isn't even trying to make sense.
Do you even have a reads-list, JeY? You've asked me for mine, and I've given it multiple times, but you've never given one. You haven't even bothered saying who your stronger Town-reads are except to conveniently call Tennis your "Towniest read" in exactly one post, in which you used that to tunnel even further onto me by saying "my scummiest read is voting my Towniest read". And now you've abandoned that read too. As far as I can tell, you've had two significant reads all game: "EL is scum" and "various people are scum with EL, depending on my mood at the time".
Are you paying attention? You asked if I had a response to Rhand's case. My answer, for now the third time (including your quote): "I don't [have a response to Rhand's post]".
Pretend to not know what you're talking about? I'm asking you to clarify. How the hell would I speak to Rhand privately? Are you aware that doing so is against the rules? You can clearly see he's not a Mason/Neighbor, which means two townies can talk privately outside the game.
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EternalLurker's post made me laugh. Depending on my mood?
So apparently when you suspect someone is scum, that's not tunneling, but when I do it, it is? Today I Learned.
Why does everyone forget I'm scum-reading Kabazame, too?
Reads list?
Town: Nobody
Scum:
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Let me real talk though; I have dinner plans tonight and plans throughout the weekend, so I can't really put any time into anything substantial soon. And, to be blunt, I am not going to be wanting to play Mafia Friday night. I'll try to look at the thread, keep up with posts and answer questions throughout but that's all I can give for now.
Deadline was for a couple weeks tough? I think? So I'm willing to put in some actual work and try to find something concrete to back up what I've noticed about certain players starting Monday.
Sorry again EL.
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1) Look over JeYs posts re:Shadow. She is constantly implying he is scum, but never really goes anywhere with it or pushes it. In fact, one person calls her out on it and then she says something to the effect of, "I don't know why I think Shadow is scummy but I am sure I will figure it out when I reread him."
2) That counter wagon on GF escalated way too quickly. Thus is why I wouldnt be surprised if Kaba, JeY and Shadow were a team. There is a wagon on Kaba that goes nowhere, even with Toast making a solid case. Then a counterwagon starts on fellow scum Jey. In order to prevent the lynch, JeY swings over to GF blindly, and then when GF self votes in frustration, Shadow hammers quickly before anyone can talk GF out of the self vote.
I could be reading it wrong, as both Vaimes and Rhand saw that as a very townie move, but I think it is way too suspicious to have a rant and create a brand new "policy" that just happens to hammer a townie.
I also think JeY is bussing because I think she unintentionally brought it up earlier mostly unforced, and then had that weird "double bus power" comment which might be an unintentional admission that Kaba is scum wjth her. (I know, it wasn't a bus since GF was town, but I still think the slip that Kaba is also scum might be valid.)
And FWIW, you're still on my more scummy than not list, but if you are going to bus one of your own kind then I am fine with it as the rest of the town isnt stupid and "confirms" you as town for it. Plus, I could be wrong. *shrug*
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
You also say you're scum reading Kabazame, who multiple people also belive is scum (Toast, myself, more I am forgetting). So why did you vite EL, who doesn't have any momentum, over Kabazame, who you also feel is scum and has already had a push on him?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
KJ I don't get your wagon analysis. You call my vote bad, KZs vote was almost as bad as mine, yet my vote was the worst and his was the second best?
Jeys frustration feels genuine, but I'm not sure what that means for her alignment. Which is a fun place to be
I'm okay with a Kabazame lynch but I want an EternalLurker lynch. That's the difference.
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Ok, I actually wasn't really aware of that, but I'm implying you killed or had him killed last night as your response to his post.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
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It was in this topic somewhere
I need to reread and see if Tennis' blatant buddying up to me has actually continued unabated since I first noted it, cuz this is becoming impossible to ignore. Unvote in the meantime. I wasn't quite as concerned about it when I thought it was possibly a new player following the most vocal Townie's lead, but now that I know (and shadow's post #553 just reminded me) that he's not actually new... {:^#{{
Of course, JeY responded with a gross appeal-to-emotion attempt when I tried to get some actual contributions out of her, as expected. That looks like the final nail in the coffin for me ever caring about any of her reads, regardless of her alignment (cuz she's either not-even-trying-to-hide scum or not-even-trying-to-help Town). Which is...problematic. But I need to sort out the Tennis issue before I put my vote anywhere. Rereading as soon as I have time this weekend.
Honestly, I'm probably still voting JeY and her incessant scumminess even if Tennis looks scummy on reread, cuz this is the kind of situation where both of them being scum is plausible, even likely. (Maf already won a mislynch and shot a PR, so this is a pretty safe time for a bus to get some Town-cred; he's not providing reasons for changing his vote from Killjoy, with whom he'd been engaged in discussion at the time and who is listed as his top scum-read; one of JeY's typical evidence-less statements early on was that Tennis was her "Towniest read"; etc.) But we'll see.
@shadowlancerx: While I normally don't care about meta, it becomes more interesting when someone is intentionally trying to hide it, as Tennis is doing. He's not just having fun with a different account; he was clearly trying to pretend he wasn't familiar with this forum: So, whaddaya think about Tennis' play based on your prior experience with him, and do you think anything has changed notably in his playstyle since post #341, after which he no longer had reason to hide his identity?
Still scum reading PA Tennis, mostly for tone.
Apologies for slacking. I'll get to the reread soon. Still present if needed.