but why did you unvote without revoting? who do you want to lynch Today and why? deadline is very soon.
I'm honestly unsure. I can see that you could be town, at which point I probably reconsider Juls and/or Shadow. And that's also true for Mog. Realistically I'd like to see a lynch in Vaimes/KT. Speaking of which, what do you think of each of those two, especially King Torg (given that people including myself have specifically explained scumreads on him)? Also, what was meant with your comment about Vaimes in post 556?
how am i being trolly? i feel as though i've been more forthcoming than usual this game (intentional due to the composition of the playerlist).
That wasn't completely fair, and I'm sorry. You've been better after discussion started, but the catchup felt bad, like "This is my unilateral thought but I don't have explanation or anything until prodded a lot," combined with being usually flippant. I'm still not convinced either way, but you're certainly not the most likely to be scum; you're just one of the contenders for the third slot for me. I'd like to see arguments on Shadow, though. Also, why is Mog scum IF and only if I'm scum? Because if there's a solid reason for that, then I can add Mog to town and the game is mostly solved for me then.
you were fearmongering bringing up the fact that a mislynch today puts the game into MyLo. Note that this is a true statement; if we hit town Today we do have to lynch correctly Tomorrow. but that's true of any lynch and bringing it up as a defense serves solely to make people afraid. this is classic fearmongering.
I suppose. It's more of a request for people to think more about the game state and be careful. Like, why are you so locked in on me at this point in the game? It honestly seemed like you tunneled REALLY hard on Nago without considering other people, which is a significant part of why I'm having difficulty trusting you right now, especially when your predecessor seemed to do much of the same.
Because it's my list, so no matter my alignment, I'm going to read myself as town. Blues could be lying about the cop role, so I can't confirm him as town, though I don't believe that he is lying. He's still very likely to be town, and is not coming out of townreads any time soon.
Because it's my list, so no matter my alignment, I'm going to read myself as town. Blues could be lying about the cop role, so I can't confirm him as town, though I don't believe that he is lying. He's still very likely to be town, and is not coming out of townreads any time soon.
Wow my brain shat itself. I didn't realize it was you that posted it.
@Ophidia: You made a good point with your listing of people earlier. I doubt that the entire scumteam would all pile on one person, so probably exactly two of JulsSkogs, King Torg, and Mog are scum. Which leaves the most likely teams, excluding Shadow, of:
@Ophidia: You made a good point with your listing of people earlier. I doubt that the entire scumteam would all pile on one person, so probably exactly two of JulsSkogs, King Torg, and Mog are scum. Which leaves the most likely teams, excluding Shadow, of:
Okay, so for all you care, Vaimes/Golli is scummier than me/Nago, but you're still going to vote me/Nago, because you're either THAT tunneled, or you're scum.
Okay, so for all you care, Vaimes/Golli is scummier than me/Nago, but you're still going to vote me/Nago, because you're either THAT tunneled, or you're scum.
Okay, so for all you care, Vaimes/Golli is scummier than me/Nago, but you're still going to vote me/Nago, because you're either THAT tunneled, or you're scum.
why does degree of scumminess matter? there's three scum, right? you don't have to lynch the scummiest person; just one of the three.
i'd also LOVE if you actually took a position on me rather than equivocating every time.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
In case it's not clear I'm completely rejecting the premise of your question.
I also just re-read it and I object to how you worded it as well, as it's very weasely. I think you're trying to trip me up here to expose some weakpoint on me. That won't work.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
To those voting me: When I flip town, what's the plan? Meg plans to vote Mog in his dreamworld where I flip scum, but that's not a complete plan.
this is more fearmongering btw. he is trying to scare you guys into lynching somebody else because if he flips town we won't have a "plan," as if we won't do the thing that any game does when it mislynches, which is to re-evaluate and examine your baseline assumptions to see if you missed anything.
There's actually more I could say about this post but I'll hold for now as it's not important.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
@Ophidia: You made a good point with your listing of people earlier. I doubt that the entire scumteam would all pile on one person, so probably exactly two of JulsSkogs, King Torg, and Mog are scum. Which leaves the most likely teams, excluding Shadow, of:
In case it's not clear I'm completely rejecting the premise of your question.
I'm asking you to actually put some effort into this game other than tunneling me. So far, it's taken effort from multiple people to even get you to explain your case on me, lack of any other contribution to this game notwithstanding.
I also just re-read it and I object to how you worded it as well, as it's very weasely. I think you're trying to trip me up here to expose some weakpoint on me. That won't work.
I'm trying to get you to play the damn game beyond saying "LOOK HERE, I DON'T HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT THAT OSI IS SCUM FOR REASONS THAT HAD TO BE DRAGGED OUT OF ME."
To those voting me: When I flip town, what's the plan? Meg plans to vote Mog in his dreamworld where I flip scum, but that's not a complete plan.
this is more fearmongering btw. he is trying to scare you guys into lynching somebody else because if he flips town we won't have a "plan," as if we won't do the thing that any game does when it mislynches, which is to re-evaluate and examine your baseline assumptions to see if you missed anything.
Actually, no, it's just a legitimate question: What does my flip reveal? Who do you look at next?
Post 519 - Repeating Post 505. Almost 12 posts in a row (and still going) and he's repeating his first post from this page... This is going to be dull.
Post 520 - "Now that I've read one of Osi's posts, I'll vote him, still without explanation. I'm just that certain because I'm fabulous and don't need to think about what I'm doing to play the game."
Post 521 - "Shadow, I don't care that you have a scum lean on me. I want to be your buddy."
Post 522 - "Shadow's scumlean on me is suspicious." No explanation why. This post might as well be an OMGUS vote.
Post 523 - "In case for some reason scum sucks at this game and night kills me, we need to lynch Osi, then if scum!Osi, lynch Mog. Shadow is another person to look at, but everyone's suspicious! Also, everyone should claim once the game is over after I've gotten us two more mislynches!"
Post 524 - "I'll try not to lurk, but no promises!"
Post 526 - "There's no purpose to this game other than voting Osi. Also, Shadow, you suck."
Post 527 - "My read of Shadow is not OMGUS-like because it's not the strictest definition of OMGUS."
Post 530 - "There's no purpose to this game other than voting Osi." Beginning to sound like a broken record here.
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Post 532 - "I don't understand scumreads that people already explained to the thread! Not that I care. Osi and Shadow are still scummy for their opposite reactions to me!"
Post 533 - Nothing post. Somewhat of setup for a later argument for defense of low-contribution posts, because they come in large clumps.
Post 536 - "I'm still not convinced on one of the most obvious scum."
Post 537 - "Osi's ignoring me is significant because I feel like it, just like my read on him is just because I feel like it, not for a real town reason. Also, you should vote for Osi because I'm buddying up to you."
Post 538 - "Guys, I'm town! Noone spent enough time on a case on AudioTsunami anyways!"
Post 541 - "Nago was scum for no reason. I don't have a case, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a case that I have. Anybody else looking for explanation can get it, though."
Post 542 - "I still don't see anything with Torg. I need someone to do the work for me!"
Post 544 - "WAAAHHH! Don't call me out for not contributing!"
Post 545 - "Thanks for the pocket, Shadow! Torg, I'll explain Osi later because someone other than Osi asked for an explanation."
Post 551 - AN ACTUAL EXPLANATION! WOW, I almost could not believe Meg could contribute such a thing! And… It's that the two catchup posts are too explanatory, that Nago wasn't contributing enough to the game because he was busy (hence the replacement, which is NAI), and that Nago, just like the majority of players in the game, didn't have solid reads on everyone by the end of day one. The only legitimate point here is voting for the safe candidate, which in and of itself alone is not a firm scumtell. Also, Mog is scummy, but guys, you should vote Osi because I tell you to do so over and over and over and over again.
Post 573 - Setting up to shade Mog based on the slim picking that he interacted with me rather than Meg.
Post 575 - Questions towards me exclusively on responses to his posts and on my recent votes. Also, asking for a prod on someone who might be a scum buddy.
Post 576 - Giving himself room to change his mind on Vaimes.
Post 590 - Acting intentionally oblivious, and then focusing in on a false premise.
Post 591 - Asking a question to which he has the answer.
Post 592 - "I'm not answering your question because I don't have an answer that makes me look town."
Post 593 - He might as well have just said "This is fake news."
Post 594 - NAI irrelevant post asking for clarification on something NAI. This happens often enough that one starts to wonder if Meg actually reads the thread other than those posts that he cherry-picked out at random and direct responses to his own posts.
Megs, it's laughable that you're talking about gettin NK'd when we have a CLAIMED COP and a TOWN PEEK.
And my scum lean has nothing to do with you and everything to do with your slot, but go ahead and OMGUS, it's cute, and worked oh so well in your last scum game against me.
Shadow, you saw this too, just as I did, and yet you turned around and followed Meg's advice with barely a second thought. And yes, you can say it's distinct from that because of Nago, but even then, why didn't one of your scum leans actively going for something not make you give much thought to it?
@Megs: you have a point that Osie is probably scum, but King Torg is as well. What's your read on him?
Meg has categorically refused to respond to questions about what he thinks about anyone other than his top scumreads, but since King Torg isn't on there he's probably Meg's scum buddy. Like, his response on King Torg was wondering why people are voting King Torg after I voted for him; it didn't have anything to do with your question.
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I'll be at work during deadline, but with the exception of work (roughly 4 PM-12 AM EST not accounting for travel) and sleep (roughly 2 AM-10 AM EST) times, I should be relatively available over the next two days. Anyone who is up for some discussion in the next several hours, let me know.
Town: Meg was not this lazy or useless in Disinheritance as town, he was actively trying to solve and do things throughout the game, and contributed well.
Scum: Meg acted similarly in Lights Out 2, according to Shadow and from a brief glance myself at the game thread. Though even then it was less lazy.
Scum: Significantly less lazy in Ace Attorney, though he also seemed to actually care about the game, unlike here.
Town: Active and productive in Experiment #4 - Drunken Tracker Mafia.
Yeah, so either way he's phoning it in here, but it's more likely scum than town.
Yuck, that felt dirty. Let's go back to normal gameplay, not *shudder* meta reads.
Osi first I'd like to say that you've been a good sport about this and that I'm having a lot of fun. This brings back memories of good times and it feels good to flex my muscles a bit in mafia again.
That said, it's time to get to work, because your posts are bad and you should feel bad.
It's clear to me that you're trying just about everything possible to deflect and get me off of your tail. You've now progressed to trying to overwhelm with sheer volume and hoping that I'll get bored or something. Again, this won't work on me.
You know, I'm gonna do a good old fashioned quote wall. It's been a while. As always when I do this, quotes may be edited for brevity. I therefore recommend anybody reading to review the original post for full context.
why does degree of scumminess matter? there's three scum, right? you don't have to lynch the scummiest person; just one of the three.
i'd also LOVE if you actually took a position on me rather than equivocating every time.
You lynch the person that you are most certain is scum, no? I'm asking what makes you more certain about me than ANY OTHER person.
Also, my position on you is, as it has always been, null with decent potential for you to be scum.
To the first point, you clearly are the person I'm most certain is scum. What you're asking for is irrelevant. While reading the game I identified your slot as a scum player. Ever since I've been pursuing the goal of getting you lynched. Why do my opinions on other players matter? Your original question was, and I quote: "Do you have an argument specifically for why Vaimes/Golli is MORE town than Nago?"
What is the relevance of this question? What do you get out of it other than wasting my time? Literally all you're doing here is trying to convince me to consider lynching somebody other than yourself, and you know what that tells me? That you're scum trying to avoid being lynched.
In the broader sense, think about what you're saying. You're essentially requesting that for me to make a scum case on somebody and vote for them that I need to have a corresponding town case on other players. That's not how it works, and you know this.
As for the post I'm directly quoting here, again, why does it matter which scum we lynch? I clearly am most certain about you anyway so your point is moot in the first place.
For your second point re: position, that position is equivocating. I've done basically nothing but attack you all Day. Usually that's a good way to get a read on somebody, since you can tell whether their arguments are valid or not. By now I'd have expected you (as town) to have figured out which one I am, not to just keep calling me null. You do finally get around to that later... which we'll address.
Noone. I'm most convinced that I want to see King Torg's alignment, though, so I would vote King Torg...
Ok so here's the thing.
I raised the question of you voting because a while back (post 562) you voted Vaimes (with no reasoning) and then unvoted in your next post, which had a Torg PBPA. But you didn't vote Torg. This is strange on its face to me. You didn't vote until later in this chain of posts, but here you're saying "I want to see King Torg's alignment" which is directly counter to your argument in the previous quote that we should be voting for the person who's most likely to be scum. Just semantics? Maybe. But your behavior doesn't add up.
In case it's not clear I'm completely rejecting the premise of your question.
I'm asking you to actually put some effort into this game other than tunneling me. So far, it's taken effort from multiple people to even get you to explain your case on me, lack of any other contribution to this game notwithstanding.
"I'm asking you to put effort into this game other than the effort you've been putting into this game"
Aside from my first Night of catch-up, how can you seriously say I've been lacking in contributions? Like seriously. I'm insulted. Just because I happen to be focusing on you doesn't mean my efforts are wasted.
Two more things here. One, this isn't even tunneling. Look back. Tunneling would be me refusing to listen to you and just screaming that you're scum and calling for your lynch. Tunneling might be me constantly referencing your predecessor's posts and ignoring yours. I don't think I've done either of those things. I've been actively engaged with your posts and asking you tons of questions. Why am I doing this? To suss out your alignment! Nagob could easily have been a townie making those posts, so I needed to engage you to confirm or overturn that read. Constant questioning of you has so far done nothing but make me more confident in the catch. In theory I could still be convinced (It does often take me a while) but I am not doing the thing you are accusing me of.
Two, why is my approach invalid? Again, I'm focusing on you so that I can determine your alignment. If i had just been saying over and over to vote you/that you're scum/etc. without the active engagement/questioning I'd cede to your point, but as I've just noted that's not what I've been doing. So then what's the issue? Why is it not sufficient to focus on one player?
Oh, I do have a third thing. I seriously disagree that I had to have explanations "dragged out" of me. I offered to explain more fully multiple times. Several folks requested more detail and I happily obliged. You're very clearly just trying to re-frame events here to make me look bad. Anybody reading this, review Post 520 through post 551 and tell me if you agree with what Osi is saying here. Seriously, do it.
To those voting me: When I flip town, what's the plan? Meg plans to vote Mog in his dreamworld where I flip scum, but that's not a complete plan.
this is more fearmongering btw. he is trying to scare you guys into lynching somebody else because if he flips town we won't have a "plan," as if we won't do the thing that any game does when it mislynches, which is to re-evaluate and examine your baseline assumptions to see if you missed anything.
Actually, no, it's just a legitimate question: What does my flip reveal? Who do you look at next?
Right.
Again I ask: what is the relevance of this information? Why do you need to know what I think we should do Tomorrow after we lynch you? Besides, I've already answered twice. If you're scum, look at Mog (Originally I said "100% of the time lynch mogg." Careful reading will show that I re-evaluated my information and dialed that back a bit, but when I've already declared two other scum I think you should be intelligent enough to figure this out) and you have the answer to what I think we should do if you are town in the post you quoted. Seriously, why waste time on that? It doesn't matter. It's Day 2 of a basic. There are times for crazy contingency plans but this isn't one of them.
How about this. If I told you "If you die and flip town, we should lynch Vaimes," what would you say? What does that information get you? Please fully elaborate on this, as I've just answered your question and I think I deserve a response to this specific point.
For your Ophidia quote, what made you think of this post? Why did you decide to launch into teams? Doesn't that run counter to your idea of lynching the scummiest player? How do you pick from within a team which player is the scummiest?
Actually, I was being a bit facetious here but I have a real question. Of the teams you selected, which is most likely? Which player in that team are you most certain of? Why are the other two players in your selected team scumbuddies with the player you're most certain about?
Not because of OMGUS, but because he's legitimately contributing nothing positive to the game,
Vote: Megiddo
I find it ironic that I went on some significant amount of talk about your predecessor's over-explainy votes and now here you are doing it too.
For clarity, the fact that you specifically spelled this out as "not OMGUS" is totally unnecessary. Zero reason to do that as town; as scum you're looking to remove the counter-argument (from me, I guess?) though I don't think I've used OMGUS as a scumtell since 2013.
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I'm not responding to any of the points in your PBPA specifically. In fact, I'm not even going to read it. But that's the trick with PBPAs. Nobody ever reads them! They're huge and clearly take effort, but nobody ever looks at them.
Scum love PBPAs because they allow them to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. Usually, and also in this case, it's more of a summary than an analysis of the player's posts. You more or less just went through and tried to make me look bad with silly summaries of my posts. Like, I picked one at random. About this post:
NOW i can officially point to your posts and call them scummy.
i clearly laid out what i did in that post. and you more or less pfffft'd me.
as i said, what makes it garbage? it's a real case on your predecessor. that doesn't make it garbage.
if your issue is just *presentation* of the case, i'm happy to rectify that issue.
You said:
"WAAAHHH! Don't call me out for not contributing!
Like, seriously? Again, to those reading, please chime in if you feel like Osiorb has correctly characterized me here.
Anyway, my point here is that this is a scum PBPA, because it doesn't do anything other than try to make me look bad. There's no analysis or critical thought here. And, personal opinion, PBPAs are scummy in the dark anyway.
*Ok, I did read it. But only because I respect you enough to be thorough
I have no clue how to read Vaimes. I'm inclined to go with town
Why town!Vaimes? What about Vaimes or Golli seems town to you?[/quote] I wouldn't have noticed this except that the Quote button includes the post number, but why are you responding to post 510 in post 598?
Megs, it's laughable that you're talking about gettin NK'd when we have a CLAIMED COP and a TOWN PEEK.
And my scum lean has nothing to do with you and everything to do with your slot, but go ahead and OMGUS, it's cute, and worked oh so well in your last scum game against me.
Shadow, you saw this too, just as I did, and yet you turned around and followed Meg's advice with barely a second thought. And yes, you can say it's distinct from that because of Nago, but even then, why didn't one of your scum leans actively going for something not make you give much thought to it?
Thanks for pointing this out!
Do you still have Shadow as leaning town? Voting for the player that one of your scumreads tells you to vote for seems like maybe something that town doesn't do, right? But you still think Shadow is town...?
@Megs: you have a point that Osie is probably scum, but King Torg is as well. What's your read on him?
Meg has categorically refused to respond to questions about what he thinks about anyone other than his top scumreads, but since King Torg isn't on there he's probably Meg's scum buddy. Like, his response on King Torg was wondering why people are voting King Torg after I voted for him; it didn't have anything to do with your question.
Could you do me a favor and link me to the relevant posts? I've already gone through above and detailed why you're wrong about this, but humor me and make better arguments (with evidence!) please.
Broader point on some of your posts here... you're just shotgunning at people to try and get them to think I'm scummy. This is really obvious and really desperate.
Town: Meg was not this lazy or useless in Disinheritance as town, he was actively trying to solve and do things throughout the game, and contributed well.
Scum: Meg acted similarly in Lights Out 2, according to Shadow and from a brief glance myself at the game thread. Though even then it was less lazy.
Scum: Significantly less lazy in Ace Attorney, though he also seemed to actually care about the game, unlike here.
Town: Active and productive in Experiment #4 - Drunken Tracker Mafia.
Yeah, so either way he's phoning it in here, but it's more likely scum than town.
Yuck, that felt dirty. Let's go back to normal gameplay, not *shudder* meta reads.
Ya ok when did you actually read those games to make the meta call on it? Mind showing some examples of posts to support your arguments?
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Osie, why are you trying to take stuff I say and redirect me to Megs? Like, I commented on lights out 2, but I don't actually think he's playing similarly to there at all, I didn't even really imply that. Heck, I might go so far as to say he's playing completely opposite; he's open, expressing reasonable opinions, and actually casing you.
Also, why did you not include me in your post about possible teams? You kinda just threw me out without saying why, and I'm pretty sure it's cause you know you're going down and want me to be a viable partner. You know what, go ahead, you can try, but it won't work. It doesn't take a PHD to see through that ruse.I strongly believe Osie needs to be lynched today. And in the likely scenario that he's scum, megs is lock town and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.
Osi first I'd like to say that you've been a good sport about this and that I'm having a lot of fun. This brings back memories of good times and it feels good to flex my muscles a bit in mafia again.
That said, it's time to get to work, because your posts are bad and you should feel bad.
Hey, this looks good! I like it. I agree, this is all in good fun, and I'd step away if I wasn't taking any enjoyment from this game.
It's clear to me that you're trying just about everything possible to deflect and get me off of your tail. You've now progressed to trying to overwhelm with sheer volume and hoping that I'll get bored or something. Again, this won't work on me.
To the first point, you clearly are the person I'm most certain is scum. What you're asking for is irrelevant. While reading the game I identified your slot as a scum player. Ever since I've been pursuing the goal of getting you lynched. Why do my opinions on other players matter? Your original question was, and I quote: "Do you have an argument specifically for why Vaimes/Golli is MORE town than Nago?"
It felt like you latched on to this idea of Nago scum and didn't really bother looking at anyone else, which is fundamentally discordant with how I think about the game. Hence why I was asking about other people.
What is the relevance of this question? What do you get out of it other than wasting my time? Literally all you're doing here is trying to convince me to consider lynching somebody other than yourself, and you know what that tells me? That you're scum trying to avoid being lynched.
I mean, there's an element of hoping that you'd look at someone else, but in the end that's more just hoping that you're town and that you would have looked at everyone, which it didn't seem like you had.
In the broader sense, think about what you're saying. You're essentially requesting that for me to make a scum case on somebody and vote for them that I need to have a corresponding town case on other players. That's not how it works, and you know this.
I'm not saying that, though I understand why you might choose to conclude that. I'm asking what you have to say about other players, since it doesn't appear that you've said or necessarily thought much about anyone other than your seemingly hard-tunneled scumreads.
As for the post I'm directly quoting here, again, why does it matter which scum we lynch? I clearly am most certain about you anyway so your point is moot in the first place.
For your second point re: position, that position is equivocating. I've done basically nothing but attack you all Day. Usually that's a good way to get a read on somebody, since you can tell whether their arguments are valid or not. By now I'd have expected you (as town) to have figured out which one I am, not to just keep calling me null. You do finally get around to that later... which we'll address.
I mean, I was legitimately unsure if your arguments were just a bad tunnel (other players have done the same in most games I've played here) or a scumtell.
Ok so here's the thing.
I raised the question of you voting because a while back (post 562) you voted Vaimes (with no reasoning) and then unvoted in your next post, which had a Torg PBPA. But you didn't vote Torg. This is strange on its face to me. You didn't vote until later in this chain of posts, but here you're saying "I want to see King Torg's alignment" which is directly counter to your argument in the previous quote that we should be voting for the person who's most likely to be scum. Just semantics? Maybe. But your behavior doesn't add up.
I'll agree that my voting pattern has been strained over the time here. I'm legitimately frustrated at the lack of information on some players, and focusing in on little things has led me down a number of rabbit holes.
"I'm asking you to put effort into this game other than the effort you've been putting into this game"
Aside from my first Night of catch-up, how can you seriously say I've been lacking in contributions? Like seriously. I'm insulted. Just because I happen to be focusing on you doesn't mean my efforts are wasted.
The problem I'm having is that you appear (at least to me) to be focusing on me to the exclusion of basically any other game discussion, despite attempts to get you to weigh in on other pieces of the game. And I don't get why you seem to refuse to do so. Do you have some particular information that you're afraid to give up? Are you trying to frustrate me into scumclaiming?
Two more things here. One, this isn't even tunneling. Look back. Tunneling would be me refusing to listen to you and just screaming that you're scum and calling for your lynch. Tunneling might be me constantly referencing your predecessor's posts and ignoring yours. I don't think I've done either of those things.
I think you're being a bit pedantic here, but okay. Going with your definition, which normally I would expand a little, I had a feeling of both of those patterns of behavior towards the start, and that feeling definitely carried over to a degree into later posts. I probably took it a little far.
I've been actively engaged with your posts and asking you tons of questions. Why am I doing this? To suss out your alignment! Nagob could easily have been a townie making those posts, so I needed to engage you to confirm or overturn that read. Constant questioning of you has so far done nothing but make me more confident in the catch. In theory I could still be convinced (It does often take me a while) but I am not doing the thing you are accusing me of.
Okay, let's get on a better foot here. I understand why you might find some of the elements of Nago's posts which you mentioned somewhat scummy. I am still, in good faith, interested in your opinions on the entirety of other living players beyond myself. Do you have questions for me which you would like a more thorough answer, or questions which you haven't asked that you'd like me to answer?
Two, why is my approach invalid? Again, I'm focusing on you so that I can determine your alignment. If i had just been saying over and over to vote you/that you're scum/etc. without the active engagement/questioning I'd cede to your point, but as I've just noted that's not what I've been doing. So then what's the issue? Why is it not sufficient to focus on one player?
It's certainly a valid approach. I've just found some elements of how you've gone about this to be scummy.
Oh, I do have a third thing. I seriously disagree that I had to have explanations "dragged out" of me. I offered to explain more fully multiple times. Several folks requested more detail and I happily obliged. You're very clearly just trying to re-frame events here to make me look bad. Anybody reading this, review Post 520 through post 551 and tell me if you agree with what Osi is saying here. Seriously, do it.
That's fair. You've provided explanations... some of the time.
Again I ask: what is the relevance of this information? Why do you need to know what I think we should do Tomorrow after we lynch you? Besides, I've already answered twice. If you're scum, look at Mog (Originally I said "100% of the time lynch mogg." Careful reading will show that I re-evaluated my information and dialed that back a bit, but when I've already declared two other scum I think you should be intelligent enough to figure this out) and you have the answer to what I think we should do if you are town in the post you quoted. Seriously, why waste time on that? It doesn't matter. It's Day 2 of a basic. There are times for crazy contingency plans but this isn't one of them.
How is it not legitimate to ask about speculation for a scumteam that doesn't include myself?
How about this. If I told you "If you die and flip town, we should lynch Vaimes," what would you say? What does that information get you? Please fully elaborate on this, as I've just answered your question and I think I deserve a response to this specific point.
Well, you had suggested a sequence of Osi -> Mog -> Shadow, and so that gives me your idea of Osi -> Vaimes in the alternative case. I'm interested at that point as to what provides such a disconnect between me and Vaimes, given that you've already shown your idea of a connection between me and Mog. Either way, it tells me that you at least are pretending to consider if your read is wrong, which is progress.
For your Ophidia quote, what made you think of this post? Why did you decide to launch into teams? Doesn't that run counter to your idea of lynching the scummiest player? How do you pick from within a team which player is the scummiest?
I'll readily admit to a bit of frustration at what felt like an unproductive struggle to get you to give me your opinions on anything other than me being scum. So I went looking for other things in the thread to think about. As for the contradiction between teams and voting for the player that is most clearly scum, the team setup is a way of considering plans based on how a player flips. I hadn't gone into it as much there, but the follow-up for me is to consider which of those teams is the most likely, based on the flip.
Actually, I was being a bit facetious here but I have a real question. Of the teams you selected, which is most likely? Which player in that team are you most certain of? Why are the other two players in your selected team scumbuddies with the player you're most certain about?
Ah, here we go. Before this post, I was leaning against the idea of you and Vaimes being buddies, and reading you as scum. That led to the most likely team for me of KT + Mog + Megs or KT + Juls + Megs, if I was correct about exactly two scum in Juls/Mog/KT. If you and Vaimes were both scum, KT seems like the most likely third person, followed by Mog. Assuming you are town, which this post does make me a little more open to, then I likely just do a simple replacement between you and Vaimes in those two teams.
I find it ironic that I went on some significant amount of talk about your predecessor's over-explainy votes and now here you are doing it too.
For clarity, the fact that you specifically spelled this out as "not OMGUS" is totally unnecessary. Zero reason to do that as town; as scum you're looking to remove the counter-argument (from me, I guess?) though I don't think I've used OMGUS as a scumtell since 2013.
Over-explainy? I guess. I probably wasn't giving you enough credit in assuming that you'd go for "He's voting me after I voted him, it's OMGUS." I figured at least one person might try that.
Scum love PBPAs because they allow them to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. Usually, and also in this case, it's more of a summary than an analysis of the player's posts.
I've never found PBPAs to be a scumtell, but that's an interesting point to consider.
Like, seriously? Again, to those reading, please chime in if you feel like Osiorb has correctly characterized me here.
At that point, you hadn't really explained why you felt the way you did about the two or three Nago posts that you were particularly fixated on. You had just called them scummy. And my response was in that spirit, especially with the bit of
if others would like me to explain more thoroughly the case on osiorb i can do this, not an issue.
which I read as rudely dismissive to any questions I might have, a perception which only seemed more justified when you went on to poopoo questions I made on your reads.
Anyway, my point here is that this is a scum PBPA, because it doesn't do anything other than try to make me look bad. There's no analysis or critical thought here. And, personal opinion, PBPAs are scummy in the dark anyway.
It's probably lighter on analysis than it should be; I did go in with a not-so-great impression based on your later posts.
I wouldn't have noticed this except that the Quote button includes the post number, but why are you responding to post 510 in post 598?
It's still relatively recent, and I'm trying to get people who aren't as active to speak up, as well as looking at activity of note from earlier in the game. I got interrupted due to reasons on making a catchup post and a lot of my questions became irrelevant after starting in media res.
Do you still have Shadow as leaning town? Voting for the player that one of your scumreads tells you to vote for seems like maybe something that town doesn't do, right? But you still think Shadow is town...?
I had a light town lean on Folza, and Shadow didn't seem to be particularly scummy. He's probably more like null at this point, but that was part of the point of the question, to see how he responded and if it pushed me more towards a townlean or a scumlean.
Could you do me a favor and link me to the relevant posts? I've already gone through above and detailed why you're wrong about this, but humor me and make better arguments (with evidence!) please.
Sure.
Post 579 I ask "Speaking of which, what do you think of each of those two, especially King Torg (given that people including myself have specifically explained scumreads on him)? Also, what was meant with your comment about Vaimes in post 556?" I also asked "I'd like to see arguments on Shadow, though. Also, why is Mog scum IF and only if I'm scum?"
In Post 587 I ask "Do you have an argument specifically for why Vaimes/Golli is MORE town than Nago?"
Your first response comes after the latter post as "to be quite honest with you i don't need one." in Post 588.
In Post 592, you declare that you completely reject the premise of a question of which the premise is simply asking what your reads are on people other than myself.
Lights Out 2: You start out with your "lynch no brakes" post, followed by lone video posts, votes with no explanation and "NO BRAKES," and the same behavior towards Shadow re: me as you had towards Tom re: Anak in post 100 of that game. Your case on Anak was
"'catch up post' lol there's not even 100 posts"
and
"why tell us you were catching up? you could have just deposited your post like a wasp deposits its eggs inside a caterpillar
but NOPE you had to let us know you were trying
NEXT LEVELED"
Like, before about post 541 or so of this game, I would not have even been very surprised if you started just voting people and saying "NO BRAKES" every post. And that's about HALFWAY through your posts?
Need I continue into the other games? Heck, why not?
Also, why did you not include me in your post about possible teams? You kinda just threw me out without saying why, and I'm pretty sure it's cause you know you're going down and want me to be a viable partner. You know what, go ahead, you can try, but it won't work. It doesn't take a PHD to see through that ruse.
Someone's paranoid... Why the heck would I try an identical strategy of pocketing you two games in a row? That sounds like a really stupid idea.
I had a townlean on your slot pre-replacement, and didn't see much reason to push you towards scum over what I had read of your posts.
Right now, you're null, but you're not as obviously partnered with anyone except maybe Megs. Folza felt like resigned townie early on, and Rhand and D_V both had decent arguments (178, 198) for Folza being town or at least not scum.
Are you just snap scumreading me every game from now on, though? Like, that's certainly how your first comment towards me sounded. At that point I might as well just be playing against another (RIP) D_V.
I strongly believe Osie needs to be lynched today. And in the likely scenario that he's scum, megs is lock town and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.
And in the actual scenario that I'm town, megs is... still likely town and you'll just vote for Mog to appease him? Besides, as I was asking Meg, do you have any input on the game beyond a scumread on me? Or are you just going to have Meg do your work for you and lurk?
Broader point on some of your posts here... you're just shotgunning at people to try and get them to think I'm scummy. This is really obvious and really desperate.
Oh, and since I missed this point when responding...
Since when is asking people to contribute opinions on someone "really obvious and really desperate [scumminess]?"
Like at that point, I can point to THE EXACT SAME THING in your very same post and in some of your earlier posts:
@Osie: Painting me as a partner is not the same as trying to pocket me. And why not, it'd be the last thing I expect.
As far as scum reading you from here on out, I really hope not, and that comment was more a call back to two takes it than it was actual accusation, it wasn't until I read through that I scum read your slot.
Also, despite you implying it and outright saying it multiple times now, Megs cannot pressure me to do anything, I'm voting you on my own terms.
And you seem to have a mindset disconnect with your claimed reads and how you address people, which might be something you've done in the past that I haven't noticed, might be because your scum, or might be because of the way you're approaching this game. I'm not sure but the easiest explanation is that you're scum so the reads are fake. Obviously, you can't really say "Nuh uh," cause that's NAI, so it's not a helpful point to go back and forth on. Mostly I wanted to point it out.
As far as scum reading you from here on out, I really hope not, and that comment was more a call back to two takes it than it was actual accusation, it wasn't until I read through that I scum read your slot.
Also, despite you implying it and outright saying it multiple times now, Megs cannot pressure me to do anything, I'm voting you on my own terms.
Which are? Like, beyond Nago, who I don't even get why people have reading as likely scum, I had 8 posts when you first declared me as one of your scumreads in Post 499. What reasons independent from Megs and the confusion that I clarified on in post 531 do you have for a scum read on me, in particular one stronger than the one you claimed to have on King Torg, since he's the only other scum read you've given this game other than Meg, who is now a town read, I guess.
might be something you've done in the past that I haven't noticed
Probably. I don't update a readlist in thread with every post, despite changes with every post. That would just be gross. Also, this recurring point comes to mind.
My reads are very fluid. They were fluid in Avalon, they are fluid here. They will continue to be very fluid for a long time. I tend not to lock in anyone, for the most part.
My reads are pretty fluid, and I somewhat spurn meta reads, so a snapshot of my reads at some point mostly just says how I'm feeling about what I've seen so far.
My reads are generally very fluid. I rarely put people as hard reads on either town or scum even if I do actively believe that they are of that alignment without any particular nagging doubts.
My reads are fluid and I am searching for townies early on. Half of that is true. I use a readlist and try to establish it as soon as I can. I'm not specifically searching for townies as much as trying to get at least the start of a read on everyone as soon as possible.
i have to go to work but for a drive-by response I have three things.
1) What you are doing here (and more or less have been doing the whole time we've been interacting) is drawing a box that says "good town behavior" and pointing out every time i do something that isn't inside of the box. The issue with this is that you drew the box. I have yet to see a convincing explanation from you about why any of the things you are saying are scummy/towny actually are scummy/towny. You just keep saying they are, and then saying that I'm on the wrong side of the box.
2) You called out Ace Attorney as a scumgame of mine but then said I'm being less helpful here than there. So... does that mean this game is my towngame? Your use of meta is very weak.
3) I won't respond to you with another massive wall, as this is just going to make people even less reluctant to post. Though I'll continue to comment on your wall(s) there through the day.
I do encourage everybody to read the post I made last night as well as osi's responses and to please ask me any questions you have if something isn't clear.
BONUS POINT: Osi, since you keep throwing words out incorrectly, I'd like to present to you an actual example of pocketing:
Osie, why are you trying to take stuff I say and redirect me to Megs? Like, I commented on lights out 2, but I don't actually think he's playing similarly to there at all, I didn't even really imply that. Heck, I might go so far as to say he's playing completely opposite; he's open, expressing reasonable opinions, and actually casing you.
Also, why did you not include me in your post about possible teams? You kinda just threw me out without saying why, and I'm pretty sure it's cause you know you're going down and want me to be a viable partner. You know what, go ahead, you can try, but it won't work. It doesn't take a PHD to see through that ruse.I strongly believe Osie needs to be lynched today. And in the likely scenario that he's scum, megs is lock town and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.
ATTEMPT DENIED, by the way.
Private Mod Note
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
And you seem to have a mindset disconnect with your claimed reads and how you address people, which might be something you've done in the past that I haven't noticed, might be because your scum, or might be because of the way you're approaching this game. I'm not sure but the easiest explanation is that you're scum so the reads are fake. Obviously, you can't really say "Nuh uh," cause that's NAI, so it's not a helpful point to go back and forth on. Mostly I wanted to point it out.
I was about to point this out actually but you already did.
Mindset disconnect is like scumtell #1. Osiorb isn't talking to me like I'd expect him to be talking to his #1 scumread.
Though as he just said, his reads are very fluid... perhaps he'll come back and say I'm no longer a scumread?
Private Mod Note
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Broader point on some of your posts here... you're just shotgunning at people to try and get them to think I'm scummy. This is really obvious and really desperate.
Oh, and since I missed this point when responding...
Since when is asking people to contribute opinions on someone "really obvious and really desperate [scumminess]?"
Like at that point, I can point to THE EXACT SAME THING in your very same post and in some of your earlier posts:
i went back to check-- your two posts to Shadow were certainly not asking for opinions. you were calling him scummy in an underhanded way, plus then trying to get him to think i'm scummy.
so... how does that compare even remotely to my four posts, which were, in order:
1) asking for people to tell me if they think i am wrong
2) asking for clarification on game events i wasn't present for
3) asking for clarification on game events i wasn't present for
4) asking for somebody to tell me if they disagree with me
.......?
there's another point here, which is context. why did you choose that moment in time to start throwing things out to other people? it reads as trying to deflect pressure--the whole of your posts there was defensive, so am i supposed to read this as anything other than more defense?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
2) You called out Ace Attorney as a scumgame of mine but then said I'm being less helpful here than there. So... does that mean this game is my towngame? Your use of meta is very weak.
Since I'm apparently trying to declare things as scummy or towny without explanation, I'll just leave it to you to explain why being less productive and less active in a game is or isn't scummy.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but the argument you've made as I'm seeing it:
I can't call anything scummy or townie, because then I'm defining a box.
I can't talk to people other than you, because then I'm deflecting.
If I point out problems with what you're saying, then I"m deflecting, being defensive, and/or misrepresenting you.
If I don't point out problems with you, then I'm not going after scum hard enough.
So what do you want to talk about, since I guess I have no voice in this discussion?
In all honesty, this seems like exactly what happened with D_V and EL. Most if not all of the scum team lurks while 2 townies go after each other, making opinions based on defense's against other opinions/questions. That just escalates into an infinite loop until the rest of the game laches on to one side or another based on one or two posts and lynches them. While wall of post arguments to have a place here, odds are it will end in another townlynch.
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"When I'm sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story"
-Barney Stinson
That said, considering the deadline, there's no consensus "scum" player (except maybe me. :p) so I'm not sure that there's any way to just lynch that player instead of having an argument about osiorb. Thoughts?
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"When I'm sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story"
-Barney Stinson
O.o I thought you said this was all in good fun? That you were enjoying the game. I get that being scum read is sucky as either alignment, but it's part of the game. My vote is not moving from Osie until he is dead.
O.o I thought you said this was all in good fun? That you were enjoying the game. I get that being scum read is sucky as either alignment, but it's part of the game. My vote is not moving from Osie until he is dead.
O.o I thought you said this was all in good fun? That you were enjoying the game. I get that being scum read is sucky as either alignment, but it's part of the game. My vote is not moving from Osie until he is dead.
I'm honestly unsure. I can see that you could be town, at which point I probably reconsider Juls and/or Shadow. And that's also true for Mog. Realistically I'd like to see a lynch in Vaimes/KT. Speaking of which, what do you think of each of those two, especially King Torg (given that people including myself have specifically explained scumreads on him)? Also, what was meant with your comment about Vaimes in post 556?
That wasn't completely fair, and I'm sorry. You've been better after discussion started, but the catchup felt bad, like "This is my unilateral thought but I don't have explanation or anything until prodded a lot," combined with being usually flippant. I'm still not convinced either way, but you're certainly not the most likely to be scum; you're just one of the contenders for the third slot for me. I'd like to see arguments on Shadow, though. Also, why is Mog scum IF and only if I'm scum? Because if there's a solid reason for that, then I can add Mog to town and the game is mostly solved for me then.
I suppose. It's more of a request for people to think more about the game state and be careful. Like, why are you so locked in on me at this point in the game? It honestly seemed like you tunneled REALLY hard on Nago without considering other people, which is a significant part of why I'm having difficulty trusting you right now, especially when your predecessor seemed to do much of the same.
Figured I might as well explain that in the form of a rainbow readlist.
Confirmed Town:
Osieorb18 (nagobcnik)
X D_V (MysticSunray)
X Rhand (Sandmummy)
Townreads:
Ophidia (Eternal Lurker)
BluesEclipse
Bloodmoon0324
Townlean:
Shadow (Folza)
Neutral:
Megiddo (AudioTsunami)
Mograppler
Scumlean:
JulsSkogs
Scumread:
Vaimes (fuggingolli***)
King Torg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Wheat_Grinder: Could we get a prod/replacement on JulsSkogs?
Because it's my list, so no matter my alignment, I'm going to read myself as town. Blues could be lying about the cop role, so I can't confirm him as town, though I don't believe that he is lying. He's still very likely to be town, and is not coming out of townreads any time soon.
Vote Osieorb18
Wow my brain shat itself. I didn't realize it was you that posted it.
Juls + Mog + Vaimes
Juls + KT + Vaimes
KT + Mog + Vaimes
Juls + Mog + Megs
Juls + KT + Megs
KT + Mog + Megs
All of these teams mean that the scum team was lurking like nobody's business this game, which sucks.
@Megiddo: Do you have an argument specifically for why Vaimes/Golli is MORE town than Nago?
Okay, so for all you care, Vaimes/Golli is scummier than me/Nago, but you're still going to vote me/Nago, because you're either THAT tunneled, or you're scum.
i'd also LOVE if you actually took a position on me rather than equivocating every time.
I also just re-read it and I object to how you worded it as well, as it's very weasely. I think you're trying to trip me up here to expose some weakpoint on me. That won't work.
There's actually more I could say about this post but I'll hold for now as it's not important.
You lynch the person that you are most certain is scum, no? I'm asking what makes you more certain about me than ANY OTHER person.
Also, my position on you is, as it has always been, null with decent potential for you to be scum.
Noone. I'm most convinced that I want to see King Torg's alignment, though, so I would vote King Torg...
I'm asking you to actually put some effort into this game other than tunneling me. So far, it's taken effort from multiple people to even get you to explain your case on me, lack of any other contribution to this game notwithstanding.
I'm trying to get you to play the damn game beyond saying "LOOK HERE, I DON'T HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT THAT OSI IS SCUM FOR REASONS THAT HAD TO BE DRAGGED OUT OF ME."
Actually, no, it's just a legitimate question: What does my flip reveal? Who do you look at next?
This post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not because of OMGUS, but because he's legitimately contributing nothing positive to the game,
Vote: Megiddo
Post 435 - Votes Mog based on two admittedly waffly posts from Mog on why he voted for D_V, and one post from BE questioning Mog.
Post 436 - Complaining about lurkers 3 posts into the game!
Post 437 - Switches vote to BE for no reason.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Post 451 - Nothing post contributes nothing.
And… no posts for an entire page.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Post 505 - "Was going to vote EL, but since it was revealed that it was town, I'll go after someone else." Also, a very soft question towards BE.
Post 506 - "Guys, I may not have contributed anything so far, but here's some advice towards how to play the game."
Post 507 - "I'm too lazy to play!"
Post 508 - "Osi is scum for no reason."
Post 509 - "Oh hey, the game broke."
Post 511 - "Here's two posts of Nago's that I don't like, but I'm not going to explain why."
Post 512 - Repeating "Osi's scum" and going after Mog for one post, attacking Meg's predecessor.
Post 513 - "My case is only based on two posts, but those two posts are really bad. Here they are. You will come to the same conclusion I did."
Post 516 - "I'm a fabulous person. Also, I don't need to vote."
Post 517 - Shadow's also scum, again for no reason.
Post 518 - Goodbye to dead people. Nothing post.
Post 519 - Repeating Post 505. Almost 12 posts in a row (and still going) and he's repeating his first post from this page... This is going to be dull.
Post 520 - "Now that I've read one of Osi's posts, I'll vote him, still without explanation. I'm just that certain because I'm fabulous and don't need to think about what I'm doing to play the game."
Post 521 - "Shadow, I don't care that you have a scum lean on me. I want to be your buddy."
Post 522 - "Shadow's scumlean on me is suspicious." No explanation why. This post might as well be an OMGUS vote.
Post 523 - "In case for some reason scum sucks at this game and night kills me, we need to lynch Osi, then if scum!Osi, lynch Mog. Shadow is another person to look at, but everyone's suspicious! Also, everyone should claim once the game is over after I've gotten us two more mislynches!"
Post 524 - "I'll try not to lurk, but no promises!"
Post 526 - "There's no purpose to this game other than voting Osi. Also, Shadow, you suck."
Post 527 - "My read of Shadow is not OMGUS-like because it's not the strictest definition of OMGUS."
Post 530 - "There's no purpose to this game other than voting Osi." Beginning to sound like a broken record here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Post 532 - "I don't understand scumreads that people already explained to the thread! Not that I care. Osi and Shadow are still scummy for their opposite reactions to me!"
Post 533 - Nothing post. Somewhat of setup for a later argument for defense of low-contribution posts, because they come in large clumps.
Post 536 - "I'm still not convinced on one of the most obvious scum."
Post 537 - "Osi's ignoring me is significant because I feel like it, just like my read on him is just because I feel like it, not for a real town reason. Also, you should vote for Osi because I'm buddying up to you."
Post 538 - "Guys, I'm town! Noone spent enough time on a case on AudioTsunami anyways!"
Post 541 - "Nago was scum for no reason. I don't have a case, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a case that I have. Anybody else looking for explanation can get it, though."
Post 542 - "I still don't see anything with Torg. I need someone to do the work for me!"
Post 544 - "WAAAHHH! Don't call me out for not contributing!"
Post 545 - "Thanks for the pocket, Shadow! Torg, I'll explain Osi later because someone other than Osi asked for an explanation."
Post 551 - AN ACTUAL EXPLANATION! WOW, I almost could not believe Meg could contribute such a thing! And… It's that the two catchup posts are too explanatory, that Nago wasn't contributing enough to the game because he was busy (hence the replacement, which is NAI), and that Nago, just like the majority of players in the game, didn't have solid reads on everyone by the end of day one. The only legitimate point here is voting for the safe candidate, which in and of itself alone is not a firm scumtell. Also, Mog is scummy, but guys, you should vote Osi because I tell you to do so over and over and over and over again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Post 554 - Revote on me. Not of note.
Post 555 - Nothing post.
Post 556 - "Guys, Vaimes is my scumbuddy, okay!"
Post 559 - Being overly helpful on nothing of consequence, for no reason.
Post 561 - Asking for clarification on responses to his post. No pressure on anyone. Also, backing down on Mog like a speeding bus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Post 571 - Questions towards me exclusively on responses to his posts and on my recent votes.
Post 572 - Joking around. Nothing post.
Post 573 - Setting up to shade Mog based on the slim picking that he interacted with me rather than Meg.
Post 575 - Questions towards me exclusively on responses to his posts and on my recent votes. Also, asking for a prod on someone who might be a scum buddy.
Post 576 - Giving himself room to change his mind on Vaimes.
Post 578 - Spam.
Post 588 - Refusing to explain his positions.
Post 590 - Acting intentionally oblivious, and then focusing in on a false premise.
Post 591 - Asking a question to which he has the answer.
Post 592 - "I'm not answering your question because I don't have an answer that makes me look town."
Post 593 - He might as well have just said "This is fake news."
Post 594 - NAI irrelevant post asking for clarification on something NAI. This happens often enough that one starts to wonder if Meg actually reads the thread other than those posts that he cherry-picked out at random and direct responses to his own posts.
Confirmed Town:
Osieorb18 (nagobcnik)
X D_V (MysticSunray)
X Rhand (Sandmummy)
Townreads:
Ophidia (Eternal Lurker)
BluesEclipse
Bloodmoon0324
Townlean:
Shadow (Folza)
Neutral:
Mograppler
Scumlean:
JulsSkogs
Scumread:
Vaimes (fuggingolli***)
King Torg
Strong Scumread:
Megiddo (AudioTsunami)
And heck, Vaimes + KT + Megs seems like one of the most concrete teams, anyways.
EBWOP: Or JulsSkogs + KT + Megs to fulfill the rule of two.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why town!Vaimes? What about Vaimes or Golli seems town to you?
Blues, Meg just handwaved you in response to this.
Shadow, you saw this too, just as I did, and yet you turned around and followed Meg's advice with barely a second thought. And yes, you can say it's distinct from that because of Nago, but even then, why didn't one of your scum leans actively going for something not make you give much thought to it?
Meg has categorically refused to respond to questions about what he thinks about anyone other than his top scumreads, but since King Torg isn't on there he's probably Meg's scum buddy. Like, his response on King Torg was wondering why people are voting King Torg after I voted for him; it didn't have anything to do with your question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll be at work during deadline, but with the exception of work (roughly 4 PM-12 AM EST not accounting for travel) and sleep (roughly 2 AM-10 AM EST) times, I should be relatively available over the next two days. Anyone who is up for some discussion in the next several hours, let me know.
i'll go through this when i'm home.
Town: Meg was not this lazy or useless in Disinheritance as town, he was actively trying to solve and do things throughout the game, and contributed well.
Scum: Meg acted similarly in Lights Out 2, according to Shadow and from a brief glance myself at the game thread. Though even then it was less lazy.
Scum: Significantly less lazy in Ace Attorney, though he also seemed to actually care about the game, unlike here.
Town: Active and productive in Experiment #4 - Drunken Tracker Mafia.
Yeah, so either way he's phoning it in here, but it's more likely scum than town.
Yuck, that felt dirty. Let's go back to normal gameplay, not *shudder* meta reads.
That said, it's time to get to work, because your posts are bad and you should feel bad.
It's clear to me that you're trying just about everything possible to deflect and get me off of your tail. You've now progressed to trying to overwhelm with sheer volume and hoping that I'll get bored or something. Again, this won't work on me.
You know, I'm gonna do a good old fashioned quote wall. It's been a while. As always when I do this, quotes may be edited for brevity. I therefore recommend anybody reading to review the original post for full context.
Ready?
To the first point, you clearly are the person I'm most certain is scum. What you're asking for is irrelevant. While reading the game I identified your slot as a scum player. Ever since I've been pursuing the goal of getting you lynched. Why do my opinions on other players matter? Your original question was, and I quote: "Do you have an argument specifically for why Vaimes/Golli is MORE town than Nago?"
What is the relevance of this question? What do you get out of it other than wasting my time? Literally all you're doing here is trying to convince me to consider lynching somebody other than yourself, and you know what that tells me? That you're scum trying to avoid being lynched.
In the broader sense, think about what you're saying. You're essentially requesting that for me to make a scum case on somebody and vote for them that I need to have a corresponding town case on other players. That's not how it works, and you know this.
As for the post I'm directly quoting here, again, why does it matter which scum we lynch? I clearly am most certain about you anyway so your point is moot in the first place.
For your second point re: position, that position is equivocating. I've done basically nothing but attack you all Day. Usually that's a good way to get a read on somebody, since you can tell whether their arguments are valid or not. By now I'd have expected you (as town) to have figured out which one I am, not to just keep calling me null. You do finally get around to that later... which we'll address.
Ok so here's the thing.
I raised the question of you voting because a while back (post 562) you voted Vaimes (with no reasoning) and then unvoted in your next post, which had a Torg PBPA. But you didn't vote Torg. This is strange on its face to me. You didn't vote until later in this chain of posts, but here you're saying "I want to see King Torg's alignment" which is directly counter to your argument in the previous quote that we should be voting for the person who's most likely to be scum. Just semantics? Maybe. But your behavior doesn't add up.
"I'm asking you to put effort into this game other than the effort you've been putting into this game"
Aside from my first Night of catch-up, how can you seriously say I've been lacking in contributions? Like seriously. I'm insulted. Just because I happen to be focusing on you doesn't mean my efforts are wasted.
Two more things here. One, this isn't even tunneling. Look back. Tunneling would be me refusing to listen to you and just screaming that you're scum and calling for your lynch. Tunneling might be me constantly referencing your predecessor's posts and ignoring yours. I don't think I've done either of those things. I've been actively engaged with your posts and asking you tons of questions. Why am I doing this? To suss out your alignment! Nagob could easily have been a townie making those posts, so I needed to engage you to confirm or overturn that read. Constant questioning of you has so far done nothing but make me more confident in the catch. In theory I could still be convinced (It does often take me a while) but I am not doing the thing you are accusing me of.
Two, why is my approach invalid? Again, I'm focusing on you so that I can determine your alignment. If i had just been saying over and over to vote you/that you're scum/etc. without the active engagement/questioning I'd cede to your point, but as I've just noted that's not what I've been doing. So then what's the issue? Why is it not sufficient to focus on one player?
Oh, I do have a third thing. I seriously disagree that I had to have explanations "dragged out" of me. I offered to explain more fully multiple times. Several folks requested more detail and I happily obliged. You're very clearly just trying to re-frame events here to make me look bad. Anybody reading this, review Post 520 through post 551 and tell me if you agree with what Osi is saying here. Seriously, do it.
Right.
Again I ask: what is the relevance of this information? Why do you need to know what I think we should do Tomorrow after we lynch you? Besides, I've already answered twice. If you're scum, look at Mog (Originally I said "100% of the time lynch mogg." Careful reading will show that I re-evaluated my information and dialed that back a bit, but when I've already declared two other scum I think you should be intelligent enough to figure this out) and you have the answer to what I think we should do if you are town in the post you quoted. Seriously, why waste time on that? It doesn't matter. It's Day 2 of a basic. There are times for crazy contingency plans but this isn't one of them.
How about this. If I told you "If you die and flip town, we should lynch Vaimes," what would you say? What does that information get you? Please fully elaborate on this, as I've just answered your question and I think I deserve a response to this specific point.
For your Ophidia quote, what made you think of this post? Why did you decide to launch into teams? Doesn't that run counter to your idea of lynching the scummiest player? How do you pick from within a team which player is the scummiest?
Actually, I was being a bit facetious here but I have a real question. Of the teams you selected, which is most likely? Which player in that team are you most certain of? Why are the other two players in your selected team scumbuddies with the player you're most certain about?
I find it ironic that I went on some significant amount of talk about your predecessor's over-explainy votes and now here you are doing it too.
For clarity, the fact that you specifically spelled this out as "not OMGUS" is totally unnecessary. Zero reason to do that as town; as scum you're looking to remove the counter-argument (from me, I guess?) though I don't think I've used OMGUS as a scumtell since 2013.
---
I'm not responding to any of the points in your PBPA specifically. In fact, I'm not even going to read it. But that's the trick with PBPAs. Nobody ever reads them! They're huge and clearly take effort, but nobody ever looks at them.
Scum love PBPAs because they allow them to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. Usually, and also in this case, it's more of a summary than an analysis of the player's posts. You more or less just went through and tried to make me look bad with silly summaries of my posts. Like, I picked one at random. About this post:
You said:
"WAAAHHH! Don't call me out for not contributing!
Like, seriously? Again, to those reading, please chime in if you feel like Osiorb has correctly characterized me here.
Anyway, my point here is that this is a scum PBPA, because it doesn't do anything other than try to make me look bad. There's no analysis or critical thought here. And, personal opinion, PBPAs are scummy in the dark anyway.
*Ok, I did read it. But only because I respect you enough to be thorough
I'm not even going to bother to ask for reasoning on the readlist.
I asked about a team earlier; why not use this one that you suggested here to answer the question?
Or this one! Take your pick, I don't care.
Why town!Vaimes? What about Vaimes or Golli seems town to you?[/quote] I wouldn't have noticed this except that the Quote button includes the post number, but why are you responding to post 510 in post 598?
Thanks for pointing this out!
Do you still have Shadow as leaning town? Voting for the player that one of your scumreads tells you to vote for seems like maybe something that town doesn't do, right? But you still think Shadow is town...?
Could you do me a favor and link me to the relevant posts? I've already gone through above and detailed why you're wrong about this, but humor me and make better arguments (with evidence!) please.
Broader point on some of your posts here... you're just shotgunning at people to try and get them to think I'm scummy. This is really obvious and really desperate.
Ya ok when did you actually read those games to make the meta call on it? Mind showing some examples of posts to support your arguments?
---
Also, why did you not include me in your post about possible teams? You kinda just threw me out without saying why, and I'm pretty sure it's cause you know you're going down and want me to be a viable partner. You know what, go ahead, you can try, but it won't work. It doesn't take a PHD to see through that ruse.
I strongly believe Osie needs to be lynched today. And in the likely scenario that he's scum, megs is lock town and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.
Hey, this looks good! I like it. I agree, this is all in good fun, and I'd step away if I wasn't taking any enjoyment from this game.
Nah...
It felt like you latched on to this idea of Nago scum and didn't really bother looking at anyone else, which is fundamentally discordant with how I think about the game. Hence why I was asking about other people.
I mean, there's an element of hoping that you'd look at someone else, but in the end that's more just hoping that you're town and that you would have looked at everyone, which it didn't seem like you had.
I'm not saying that, though I understand why you might choose to conclude that. I'm asking what you have to say about other players, since it doesn't appear that you've said or necessarily thought much about anyone other than your seemingly hard-tunneled scumreads.
I mean, I was legitimately unsure if your arguments were just a bad tunnel (other players have done the same in most games I've played here) or a scumtell.
I'll agree that my voting pattern has been strained over the time here. I'm legitimately frustrated at the lack of information on some players, and focusing in on little things has led me down a number of rabbit holes.
The problem I'm having is that you appear (at least to me) to be focusing on me to the exclusion of basically any other game discussion, despite attempts to get you to weigh in on other pieces of the game. And I don't get why you seem to refuse to do so. Do you have some particular information that you're afraid to give up? Are you trying to frustrate me into scumclaiming?
I think you're being a bit pedantic here, but okay. Going with your definition, which normally I would expand a little, I had a feeling of both of those patterns of behavior towards the start, and that feeling definitely carried over to a degree into later posts. I probably took it a little far.
Okay, let's get on a better foot here. I understand why you might find some of the elements of Nago's posts which you mentioned somewhat scummy. I am still, in good faith, interested in your opinions on the entirety of other living players beyond myself. Do you have questions for me which you would like a more thorough answer, or questions which you haven't asked that you'd like me to answer?
It's certainly a valid approach. I've just found some elements of how you've gone about this to be scummy.
That's fair. You've provided explanations... some of the time.
How is it not legitimate to ask about speculation for a scumteam that doesn't include myself?
Well, you had suggested a sequence of Osi -> Mog -> Shadow, and so that gives me your idea of Osi -> Vaimes in the alternative case. I'm interested at that point as to what provides such a disconnect between me and Vaimes, given that you've already shown your idea of a connection between me and Mog. Either way, it tells me that you at least are pretending to consider if your read is wrong, which is progress.
I'll readily admit to a bit of frustration at what felt like an unproductive struggle to get you to give me your opinions on anything other than me being scum. So I went looking for other things in the thread to think about. As for the contradiction between teams and voting for the player that is most clearly scum, the team setup is a way of considering plans based on how a player flips. I hadn't gone into it as much there, but the follow-up for me is to consider which of those teams is the most likely, based on the flip.
Ah, here we go. Before this post, I was leaning against the idea of you and Vaimes being buddies, and reading you as scum. That led to the most likely team for me of KT + Mog + Megs or KT + Juls + Megs, if I was correct about exactly two scum in Juls/Mog/KT. If you and Vaimes were both scum, KT seems like the most likely third person, followed by Mog. Assuming you are town, which this post does make me a little more open to, then I likely just do a simple replacement between you and Vaimes in those two teams.
Over-explainy? I guess. I probably wasn't giving you enough credit in assuming that you'd go for "He's voting me after I voted him, it's OMGUS." I figured at least one person might try that.
I've never found PBPAs to be a scumtell, but that's an interesting point to consider.
At that point, you hadn't really explained why you felt the way you did about the two or three Nago posts that you were particularly fixated on. You had just called them scummy. And my response was in that spirit, especially with the bit of
which I read as rudely dismissive to any questions I might have, a perception which only seemed more justified when you went on to poopoo questions I made on your reads.
It's probably lighter on analysis than it should be; I did go in with a not-so-great impression based on your later posts.
Which question? Do you mean earlier in THIS post?
It's still relatively recent, and I'm trying to get people who aren't as active to speak up, as well as looking at activity of note from earlier in the game. I got interrupted due to reasons on making a catchup post and a lot of my questions became irrelevant after starting in media res.
I had a light town lean on Folza, and Shadow didn't seem to be particularly scummy. He's probably more like null at this point, but that was part of the point of the question, to see how he responded and if it pushed me more towards a townlean or a scumlean.
Sure.
In Post 587 I ask "Do you have an argument specifically for why Vaimes/Golli is MORE town than Nago?"
Your first response comes after the latter post as "to be quite honest with you i don't need one." in Post 588.
In Post 592, you declare that you completely reject the premise of a question of which the premise is simply asking what your reads are on people other than myself.
I had just skimmed over your posts, but here goes:
Disinheritance: You appear to be actively thinking about things, going after multiple people, and questioning:
1, 2, 3 to name a few.
Lights Out 2: You start out with your "lynch no brakes" post, followed by lone video posts, votes with no explanation and "NO BRAKES," and the same behavior towards Shadow re: me as you had towards Tom re: Anak in post 100 of that game. Your case on Anak was
"'catch up post' lol there's not even 100 posts"
and
"why tell us you were catching up? you could have just deposited your post like a wasp deposits its eggs inside a caterpillar
but NOPE you had to let us know you were trying
NEXT LEVELED"
Like, before about post 541 or so of this game, I would not have even been very surprised if you started just voting people and saying "NO BRAKES" every post. And that's about HALFWAY through your posts?
Need I continue into the other games? Heck, why not?
Ace Attorney: Solid, Whatever this is..., and A real argument.
Experiment 4: Here's some active effort.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Again, no hard feelings. It's good that we're approaching the game in different ways. Keeps things interesting.
Someone's paranoid... Why the heck would I try an identical strategy of pocketing you two games in a row? That sounds like a really stupid idea.
I had a townlean on your slot pre-replacement, and didn't see much reason to push you towards scum over what I had read of your posts.
Right now, you're null, but you're not as obviously partnered with anyone except maybe Megs. Folza felt like resigned townie early on, and Rhand and D_V both had decent arguments (178, 198) for Folza being town or at least not scum.
Are you just snap scumreading me every game from now on, though? Like, that's certainly how your first comment towards me sounded. At that point I might as well just be playing against another (RIP) D_V.
And in the actual scenario that I'm town, megs is... still likely town and you'll just vote for Mog to appease him? Besides, as I was asking Meg, do you have any input on the game beyond a scumread on me? Or are you just going to have Meg do your work for you and lurk?
Oh, and since I missed this point when responding...
Since when is asking people to contribute opinions on someone "really obvious and really desperate [scumminess]?"
Like at that point, I can point to THE EXACT SAME THING in your very same post and in some of your earlier posts:
As far as scum reading you from here on out, I really hope not, and that comment was more a call back to two takes it than it was actual accusation, it wasn't until I read through that I scum read your slot.
Also, despite you implying it and outright saying it multiple times now, Megs cannot pressure me to do anything, I'm voting you on my own terms.
And you seem to have a mindset disconnect with your claimed reads and how you address people, which might be something you've done in the past that I haven't noticed, might be because your scum, or might be because of the way you're approaching this game. I'm not sure but the easiest explanation is that you're scum so the reads are fake. Obviously, you can't really say "Nuh uh," cause that's NAI, so it's not a helpful point to go back and forth on. Mostly I wanted to point it out.
"I see," said the blind man.
Which are? Like, beyond Nago, who I don't even get why people have reading as likely scum, I had 8 posts when you first declared me as one of your scumreads in Post 499. What reasons independent from Megs and the confusion that I clarified on in post 531 do you have for a scum read on me, in particular one stronger than the one you claimed to have on King Torg, since he's the only other scum read you've given this game other than Meg, who is now a town read, I guess.
Probably. I don't update a readlist in thread with every post, despite changes with every post. That would just be gross. Also, this recurring point comes to mind.
Revolution:
Horsemen:
Two Takes it:
EBWODP: "despite changes with many posts."
I don't generally change my reads after each and every post in the game.
1) What you are doing here (and more or less have been doing the whole time we've been interacting) is drawing a box that says "good town behavior" and pointing out every time i do something that isn't inside of the box. The issue with this is that you drew the box. I have yet to see a convincing explanation from you about why any of the things you are saying are scummy/towny actually are scummy/towny. You just keep saying they are, and then saying that I'm on the wrong side of the box.
2) You called out Ace Attorney as a scumgame of mine but then said I'm being less helpful here than there. So... does that mean this game is my towngame? Your use of meta is very weak.
3) I won't respond to you with another massive wall, as this is just going to make people even less reluctant to post. Though I'll continue to comment on your wall(s) there through the day.
I do encourage everybody to read the post I made last night as well as osi's responses and to please ask me any questions you have if something isn't clear.
BONUS POINT: Osi, since you keep throwing words out incorrectly, I'd like to present to you an actual example of pocketing:
ATTEMPT DENIED, by the way.
Mindset disconnect is like scumtell #1. Osiorb isn't talking to me like I'd expect him to be talking to his #1 scumread.
Though as he just said, his reads are very fluid... perhaps he'll come back and say I'm no longer a scumread?
because two can play at that game.
so the crux of your argument on me is that
the crux of your argument on me is that i'm focusing on you and failing to look at the rest of the game.
but you have just shown four examples of me doing exactly that! so... would you like to argue that i'm ignoring the game or the opposite? you pick.
plus, as usual, you are misrepresenting my point in an attempt to undermine my argument.
the posts you made that i was referring to were NOT you asking somebody for an opinion.
the one in particular i remember from looking was you telling blueseclipse that i had "handwaved" one of his questions.
... i'm not sure what part of that is asking for an opinion.
so... how does that compare even remotely to my four posts, which were, in order:
1) asking for people to tell me if they think i am wrong
2) asking for clarification on game events i wasn't present for
3) asking for clarification on game events i wasn't present for
4) asking for somebody to tell me if they disagree with me
.......?
there's another point here, which is context. why did you choose that moment in time to start throwing things out to other people? it reads as trying to deflect pressure--the whole of your posts there was defensive, so am i supposed to read this as anything other than more defense?
Since I'm apparently trying to declare things as scummy or towny without explanation, I'll just leave it to you to explain why being less productive and less active in a game is or isn't scummy.
So because I talk to people differently from you, I must be scum? Now who's defining a scum/town box.
Nice misrepresenting my argument and then complaining about me misrepresenting your argument in the same breath.
My point was that you were focusing on me and not providing YOUR OWN thoughts about the rest of the game. There is a notable distinction there.
I can't call anything scummy or townie, because then I'm defining a box.
I can't talk to people other than you, because then I'm deflecting.
If I point out problems with what you're saying, then I"m deflecting, being defensive, and/or misrepresenting you.
If I don't point out problems with you, then I'm not going after scum hard enough.
So what do you want to talk about, since I guess I have no voice in this discussion?
Nah.
Unvote
Vote: King Torg
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
Osie v Megs does not look like DV v EL
Unvote
Vote Osieorb18
I didn't say I wasn't enjoying the game.