Ok, so here's some more fun POE. There are only three remaining scenarios where QH is Town.
Town
Rhand DG
WG VT
Vaimes VT
Shin Announcer
EL VT
SJT VT
Proph VT
Shadow Neighborizer
QH Watcher
Scum
RE VT (Claimed)
Grape BP (Claimed)
Lng Vanilla Cop Giver
This seems so unlikely, who does he watch in this situation, the town Death Guard or whoever AG gave the shot to? It's anti-town to reveal Dr. targets. Maybe BP has another targeting role, but I don't see what it could be.
Town
Rhand DG
WG VT
Vaimes VT
Shin Announcer
EL VT
SJT VT
Proph VT
Grape BP
QH Watcher
Scum
Shadow Neighborizer
RE VT (Claimed)
Lng Vanilla Cop Giver
Same, but less likely since there is no BP claim to question.
Town
Rhand DG
WG VT
Vaimes VT
Shin Announcer
EL VT
SJT VT
Shadow Neighborizer
RE VT
QH Watcher
Scum
Proph VT
Grape BP (Claimed)
Lng Vanilla Cop Giver
Same as #6
I'm pretty convinced that there is no way QH is town telling the truth. His role is useless if he is. The only thing holding me back is the existence of useless roles for the sake of being red herrings.
Hi TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, do you have any real townreads at this point of the game? You're speculating on scumteams, which is fine and all (I'm trying to follow your reasoning) but who do actually think is town and who do you actually think is scum?
I don't know. I'm working through it. I'm going to suspect everybody at this point, but see my most recent post.
Wait never mind, I missed it in his ginormous wall...
But it wasn't in a ginormus wall! It was in 2558 and the wall too. But there first.
Well, honestly, I had no idea what you were talking about but didn't see it as important at the time
I thought I just missed where QH said it (which was actually the case), but then I couldn't find it (temporarily).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Wait never mind, I missed it in his ginormous wall...
But it wasn't in a ginormus wall! It was in 2558 and the wall too. But there first.
Well, honestly, I had no idea what you were talking about but didn't see it as important at the time
I thought I just missed where QH said it (which was actually the case), but then I couldn't find it (temporarily).
When you realize they aren't reading your posts... CryingJordan.jpg
68 is the first post that jumps out at me. Most of it feels NAI, but that interaction with Vaimes at the end is interesting. Goes out of his way to comment on Vaimes being town while discrediting his read. Also puts intent into Vaimes words while not showing a ton of interest in learning more from Vaimes response. Slight scum+
This (31) plus 68 are a pattern of awkward interactions with Kpaca. Meaningless but probably a little more evidence that Proph/QH are unaligned.
108 is a doozy. The first of the walls we've come to know and love from QH. Starts off defensively with a self meta based defense. Scum+ Promises not to lurk and claims they never lurk so already broken the self meta Anyway he goes on to defend the content of his previous post that Mindreaver was pushing him over. And in expanding on the weird Vaimes/Kpaca read that gave me scum vibes earlier says this:
Then I agree with Vaimes that kpaca's #59 is a weird defense to do as a mafia. I also understand from Vaimes that he reads kpaca as a mafia fishing for town cred ('I don't buy that read at all. Like not even remotely'). Which I'm not even sure makes sense with the whole 'kpaca is aggressive' thing because why would a mafia going for town cred take the aggressive route? (note: Vaimes didn't say kpaca is aggressive like Shinichi did but he did say his posts irked him) Which goes back to my thinking that kpaca is chaotic and probably takes some effort and conviction to read. But I suppose some people here have different opinions on this because they've actually played with him in the past.
And continues to say nothing except for softly defending Kpaca and just lightly undermining Vaimes argument. Still getting scum+ from this whole interaction.
And all of that was in defense of having a post saying nothing. And still said very little to that stage.
Anyway the post continues.
Town reads Vaimes and makes a self conscious joke about scum dragging out RVS. Scum+ but that is pure conf bias on my part I think.
Defends Shinichi and answers a question from Shadow for him. Which is a red flag.
Has this bizare interaction with Shadow:
Quote from QH »
Quote from Shadow »
So why go out of your way to call it soft if every read is soft?
What's with your pragmatics-based questions o.o
Where he just looks at things at a very surface level. Doesn't try to figure out what Shadow's intent is, or what that question could be valuable. Just shades it. Scum+ and anti synergy with Shadow.
Next part is a town read on Shin that leaves an escape hatch open to get out of it.
The follow up question is solid to Shinichi about clearing up Shin's read on Vaimes.
And another slight distancing bit between Shadow and QH wraps it up.
Summary of that giant post is that QH is very defensive and is really trying to sort out Shinichi and Vaimes. Which while the latter is good, the former isn't.
393 is another doozy. So let's just skip to the end. He'd set himself up in his previous big post to jump onto Shadow and follows through here. His earlier doubts were focused on Shadow's "pragmatics based questions" and the comment about pocketing me. Let's first pull out anything he's added in this wall and see what else we have.
*reading*
Huh, not a single quote of Shadow in the whole thing. Now that's a bit strange.
And there are only two mentions of him. One is a response to an earlier push of mine about his "pragmatics based questions" question being bad and the other is saying WG and Shadow haven't interacted at all so they work as scum together.
Feels like a very forced vote. Again is giving me non-aligned vibes between those two. And scum vibes from QH.
Thoughts on the content of the wall itself in next post.
It starts off self conscious again. Commenting that no one called them out for the length of their 108. Which suggests they care very much what people are thinking about them.
And let's go bullet point style summary for a while:
Scum points given to AG, while defending Shin.
Gets super defensive over a bit of pressure from Mindreaver. Again.
Defends Shin and suggests that asking for why you made a post requires knowing why the questioner didn't like the post. Feels like he's trying hard to pocket Shin.
Defends his shading of Shadows questions. Saying I should know why he was shading them.
Talks about vaimes seeming to brush off WG's vote. town+
More Shinichi Buddying! THis time over Terry's entrance.
Finds out he knows another player. Gives a meta based town lean.
Back to shading Shadow's questions. Getting close to calling those two hard unaligned. Missed that one in my earlier write up >_>
Defends Shin some more, and possibly soft defends Kpaca? Not sure what that is acually saying. This is in the response to RE about town reading Shin.
Defends Vaimes from WG on the basis of defending oneself being neutral. Which QH would strongly like to be read as neutral given how much he's been defending himself.
And again town reading Shinichi.
Gives Vaimes defending him a thumbs up.
Makes a very solid point that Kpaca's defense of Shin is the sort of thing more likely to come from scum trying to earn town credit than from defending a scum buddy town+
Defends RE and Shin, while also town leaning Terry. The rare triple town read about three people forming a chain of scum reads. Don't think that one means anything. Just funny.
Town reads RE based off of honest tone of admitting they were over pressuring something. Possible buddy vibes between RE/QH there.
And I just can't sum these up 1 by 1 anymore. This post is too long. Back to only pulling out ones that strike me as interesting.
Quote from QH »
Quote from AG »
WG sounds pretty town. Not exactly certain what he sees as scummy from Vaimes, but his tone is townie.
>Guy gets called out for coming in only to forcibly make a read.
>Does it again.
Help.
I really like this one actually. It's quite funny. That said the conf biasing part of me that wants LnGrrrR and QH to both be scum is screaming coaching at it. But I really probably shouldn't listen to that part of me right now.
Next quote says he's agreeing with Vaimes and proceeds to completely disagree with what Vaimes was saying. Feels like pushing an agenda. Even if it's over as something as small and inconsequential as a null read vs a town read.
He also starts laying the groundwork for the WG push based on how thirsty WG was to push Vaimes.
He then sums up where he is on the game town reading 3 dead townies and Terry. Putting WG/Shadow/ and kind of AG at scum, and everyone else in the need to sort out pile. Suggests Vaimes is probably lock town if WG is scum, before back tracking it in the same sentence.
All in all my big takeaway from this post is his selective scope of interests. He votes Shadow but the 3 topics he keeps latching onto are town reading Vaimes, Town reading Shinichi, and defending himself. Almost every response in that entire wall is towards one of those three goals. Which tells me that QH is playing with an agenda.
So reading through QH's posts today, there is an utter lack of the panic I would expect from someone who's lynch would lose the game. He just doesn't express any emotion. QH, have you ever been a game losing mislynch?
Terry, while I appreciate your effort here immensely, and am feeling really a lot better about you overall from where I was at the start of our chat, your willingness to clear teams based on what you think I absolutely wouldn't do kind of makes me worry that you might be doing the same with other people. I said this earlier this game, but it bears repeating because it is most likely true for any good scum player, and that is I will do literally anything as scum that isn't against the spirit of the game. I could totally see myself drawing scum neighborizor and targeting a buddy for the exact reason you're clearing teams for. Again, it doesn't actually matter here, but I do think you would benefit from making sure you're not doing the same sort of clear for someone else in later days.
RE: regarding my conversations with people, I think you're not correctly remembering (or you are attempting to sew distrust among us) if you think nothing has come from my chats alignment wise. I am heavily town reading grape, and what was said during chats is strengthening that to a point where I will basically never win if he's scum (and would actually be reasonably upset if he was). Proph I'm lukewarm about. Whatever I do, I keep coming back to kpaca's play, as well as some of the stuff grapefruit and I talked about. His saving grace right now is that he and QH are reasonably strongly unaligned (though I am at a point where I wouldn't bet the game on this) and QH doesn't look like a townie that's about to be mislynched. Terry, I've had as varying degrees of townie to briefly scummy to back to townie. The last few posts of our chat together actually has me feeling like I did near the end of Mistborn, which he was town and showed it through passion and just couldn't push past the opposition. So aside from being "interesting", what is your takeaway from this? You say I'm either pocketed or pocketing, but you kind of let that drop without going further into it, what's your point?
441 Starts off with the gem of Terry/RE looks town/town but here are reasons both could be scum. So many escape hatches to be found here.
Then he has an interaction with Shadow, who QH voted in his last post and promised to follow up with more on, and says this in response to Shadow saying RE isn't leaving much of an impression on him:
Quote from QH »
Yeah, that's probably you. I wouldn't scumread someone for the reason that I can't remember what he has posted, this seems somewhat selfish, and I would actually reread their posts instead. Unless you mean something like "nothing he has posted really had any impact," in which case I can definitely follow your logic.
That just doesn't feel like a real reaction to someone you're scum reading. He shows no interest in RE's post having substance or not and minimal interest in figuring out if Shadow is using that excuse to push anything. More suggesting that Shadow/QH are not aligned.
Also suggests that he's okay with lynching Kpaca.
Very next post no longer okay lynching Kpaca and then gives this big wall against it:
Which lynch are you talking about? You're voting Shadow best I can tell by yourself, but I have a feeling you're not talking about that one.
Sorry, I mean the kpaca lynch.
I don't particularly hate it, but I'm not really liking it.
It's a mix of - how AtheistGod voted him, - how the votes slowly started to pile up on him for reasons akin to why people would vote AG, - how kpaca looks like a relatively easy mislynch because of his behavior, - and how shortly after Terry's vote on him the thread went silent for about 15 hours only to be revived by you who, as if to find some secure ground, is asking everyone to vote for one of kpaca, AG, Shinichi, or Rhand unless good reasons are given.
Suppose you and Vaimes are mafia, or perhaps you and AG, or perhaps only you.There's the fact that AG's game activity is very similar to kpaca's. And with this comes the fact that AG voted kpaca but kpaca didn't vote AG. kpaca's slot seems to me here like a wonderful spot for mafia to go to.
I didn't particularly scumread you until your #451, and I'm not sure I even do now, because I'd like to think that you're trying to get things organized for town, and that the scum's votes are more scattered than this (following my previous suspicions, that'd be shadowlx on Shinichi, WG on Vaimes (in which case I'm not sure why kpaca would have followed him on that wagon if he was scum with him), and the third one who knows).
With all this, I'm not sure if AG is scum being spared by his teammates in favor of a kpaca lynch, or if AG is town whose vote is being used to build on kpaca because building on kpaca became easier than building on AG, or if kpaca scum is genuinely caught.
If someone could point me to something that differentiates kpaca and AG's approach to the current game by a decently long shot (from how I see it, both come in and out by posting brief reads in the same way, only kpaca is slightly more brutal (?)), that'd make things more understandable for me. I remember reading that AG was once mislynched as he had a similar posting style, but I also remember reading that the kpaca we're getting is a typical kpaca.
So that is a masterpiece of FUD'ing. I've bolded a bunch of things designed to make you doubt your read on Kpaca while not really talking about the substance of the game. QH is spinning scenario's based on a train stalling and my 451
Okay so we're getting close enough to the deadline 29th from memory, and have a clear enough lynch pool that people who don't want one of Kpaca, AG, Shinichi, or Rhand lynched should start being very clear as to why.
I'm in a spot where 3 of those feel like shrug lynched and the other just replaced.
If we're going to lynch one of Terry v RE (which I don't want to do) I'm always going for Terry.
I'm never lynching Mind or Vaimes.
I don't want to lynch QH or Shadow, but that is largely based on bias and not this game. Plus I still haven't read QH's big post with spoilers... Next week I'll have access to a laptop again.
As for Wheat I don't know what to make of them. The level of gung-ho on vaimes strikes me the same way Mind talked about Terry. But unlike Terry I don't have anything giving me town vibes.
TLDR:
Want to lynch: Kpaca (for being Kpaca but not really doing anything even more so)
Shinichi (for dodging a ton of questions and doing some heavy FUD'ing)
AG (as a compromise lynch only, for being very absent)
Rhand (for Roger running an aggressive discrediting style while largely not commiting to views of his own)
Willing to be persuaded into anyone else but Vaimes or Mind.
for Kpaca to be town. This makes no sense to me. He had previously town read me. Scum read kpaca. And offers nothing of substance to say why he changed his mind. Not only can I not follow his line of thinking, I don't remotely see how it comes from someone trying to solve the game. this is a scum post and scum progression. FOS: QH And again this is all from someone who has been voting Shadow this whole time and not been talking about why, trying to convince anyone that he's scum, or using his scum read of shadow to inform his sudden cold feet towards the Kpaca lynch.
So reading through QH's posts today, there is an utter lack of the panic I would expect from someone who's lynch would lose the game. He just doesn't express any emotion. QH, have you ever been a game losing mislynch?
Hijacking this because I can say he has been. The game he referred to earlier with the scum fake claiming BP he was the game losing mislynch in a final 3 (while Hydra'd with Shinichi). To my eyes he showed more effort in that game, but I'm in a confirmation bias tunnel at this point.
Terry, while I appreciate your effort here immensely, and am feeling really a lot better about you overall from where I was at the start of our chat, your willingness to clear teams based on what you think I absolutely wouldn't do kind of makes me worry that you might be doing the same with other people. I said this earlier this game, but it bears repeating because it is most likely true for any good scum player, and that is I will do literally anything as scum that isn't against the spirit of the game. I could totally see myself drawing scum neighborizor and targeting a buddy for the exact reason you're clearing teams for. Again, it doesn't actually matter here, but I do think you would benefit from making sure you're not doing the same sort of clear for someone else in later days.
On a similar note to this I'm getting very worried that we've been writing off Proph/QH scum teams. I've gone into it a bit in my recent walls, but QH's progression on Kpaca does not feel natural at all.
And for the record that FUD'ing post in spoilers was QH's last post of the phase. Which tells me he didn't really care too much who got lynched as long as it wasn't Kpaca.
For my own sanity I'm not going to read his wall on WG. But I will keep an eye out going forward for how he treats WG this phase. You would think coming out of a wall that certain you'd be pretty incentivized to make sure that lynch gets followed through with. To my recolection QH doesn't.
A little bit more self conscious worry about getting scum read.
Next wall not a single mention of WG to be found. Curious.
Another wall another conspicuous absence of WG mentions.
Another wall and only a passing mention of WG. In the context of saying that well him and Shadow work together as scum!
Quote from QH »
In the communication roles thingy, Shinichi comes off worse than shadowlx afterall based on his reactions. I can explain if people think it matters.
But at the same time I think shadowlx's interactions with Wheat_Grinder (or the other way around) make him a scumbuddy. So I'm also curious of why RE thinks they're unaligned. Just to say I'm more open to Shin being scum because of some posts he has made, but I still think shadowlx is scummier because of [see previous sentence]. There's also the possibility of both roles being from the same alignment so ugh.
Again a huge lack of interest from someone in pursuing a scum read that they made a post so long about the forum marked it as spam. It's been roughly 400 posts and a week of real time and that's his only follow up mention of WG. Doesn't feel like a real scum read to me.
Then we have this infamous (to me post):
Bad vibes from Grapefruit.
Pretty sure Wheat is scum.
I feel like his play is more like "people scumread me for Reason X, but I'm gonna keep playing it out as if Reason X is a perfectly reasonable townie behavior coming from me."
Reiterates the WG read that he hasn't been pushing and shades me based on nothing. I've largely been mentioned in positive ways by him (apart from the paranoid EoD1 post) so this is out of nowhere. And his next two posts don't explain it at all. It just shows the lack of game solving intent that is evident looking through his ISO.
And here is a goldmine he flips on his Shinichi read. With very little preamble or reasoning. Just says okay, Shin can be scum too. From the guy who spent all of D1 town reading Shin over just about everything that Shinichi did. I just don't buy this progression coming from town. And I know I've been posting a ton but this one is a big find. He rarely had a post that didn't call Shin town D1 and now flips on very little reasoning and with no preamble in the posts leading up to it. He was still town reading Shin in his previous wall here.
I liked one part of your post. That doesn't mean that a single townie part of your post can erase all of your scumminess.
Quote from QH »
However I don't agree that AG's role makes no sense for town because to me it makes more sense for town than for scum. I already explained why. That usually holds true to me for any role which gives out an ability.
You might say that AG's role makes more sense for town than for scum, but what do you think about AG/LnG's behavior? And I don't really understand how you could be townreading LnG when you have the role you claimed.
Quote from QH »
About the shadow-Shinichi alignment problem. I think I've said this before, but I'm really reluctant to base my reads on that. I'd rather focus on their posts, ya know? I'd like to take the easy route and say shadow is likely scum, but we all know that's not fair at all, right? A neighborizer can be scum, sure, but shadow's posts have mostly been townie to me and the problem I had with him on D1 has disappeared.
What was the problem you had on him on Day 1?
Why do you think shadow is town?
Who do you think is scum at the moment, and why?
Quote from QH »
I don't feel the need to case you at all though. I stated the reasons I would be voting you for, then we went ahead and had an exchange of posts. I can figure you out even more from that exchange of posts and enrich on why you're reading me wrong, in a probably scummy way. Doing this can itself be considered a "case." And yes, I was testing the waters to see if a lynch on you would even be possible but it wasn't afterall.
"Oh, here's this person I think might be scum. And I'm going to test the waters on him to see if a lynch on him would pan out. But it wouldn't, so I'm not going to do anything about it."
This post doesn't come from a town mindset at all IMO. And I don't even know the reasons as to why you are scumreading me.
Quote from QH »
If I took a shot each time you asked that question I'd be drunk in another world.
I'm interested as to why other people think about you because I think you're scum and I want you to be lynched.
Quote from QH »
*puts on my Wheat_Grinder cape* Well for starters I'm catching scum as we're speaking.
:rollseyes:
Quote from QH »
Like OK, I get the scumreads on me for being reactive, but they don't faze me a single bit. I could pull up ANY forum mafia game I've played in - the two scumreads I always get are that of inactivity (when applicable) and that of having weak scumhunting, aka being reactive over proactive (because apparently the latter is more townie :/). So I'm used to it. I'm like a Astros/RogerSherman, with similar amounts of perceptiveness, but with less questions and more thought processes. I suppose by most people's standards, that just makes me a weak town player, but nonetheless I still win as many games as town as the guy next door. So I don't feel like my playstyle is a notable problem.
So basically you're bringing up your meta as a reason for other people to townread you? I don't see really much of anything this game that makes me think that you might be town.
Quote from QH »
To be fair, I can't think of an action you've done which has benefited the town either.
@Proph, I'll go back through and look. I always get leery when you look at vote counts. I think there was a game we were in 2 years ago or so where you were scum and used them effectively.
When there aren't any scum flipped, vote analysis is at its most powerful. I think it's a pretty strong tool to use, especially because we have a bunch of competing wagons.
Quote from JT »
I don't know. I'm working through it. I'm going to suspect everybody at this point, but see my most recent post.
I want to see some behavioral reads out of you, though, not "working through every scumteam to see what makes sense". Like, is there anyone you think is town at the moment?
I do think your theorizing about all possible scumteams is townie but I want you to get on the same page as I am - and that's in the realm of behavior, not relying on claims.
If he's town, then shame on me, I'll apologize postgame for it. He's just.. hasn't done anything Townie or anything to show for it, though.
His claim makes zero sense in this setup and it's not provable. Grape's ISO of him is very good and I encourage people to read it. QH has had zero progression in reads and he's not interested in scumhunting. Like, look at how he keeps putting out feelers for a possible mislynch on me AND he says he's okay with his inactivity. This is scum trying to coast, not town trying to solve the game. Him just OMGUSing Grape and I feels really lazy.
If everyone is okay with it I will vote for him in the next 24 hours.
Gah. I'm annoyed Wheat flipped town, I thought I was going somewhere with this game but now I'm more confused than anything so I will do my best to look at other people toDay. This includes Proph, Terry and Grapefruit above everyone else. That, or I'll just go with the flow.
So this whopper of a post starts off here. The whole going with the flow thing drew some well deserved flack. Also his first 3 choices for scum are all still alive and 2 of them are among the most town read players at this stage.
Quote from QH »
Uh. How does my last stance on Shinichi even matter. I said myself that EL made me more willing to vote Shinichi. And yeah, I thought Wheat was scum and I had him on my list from D1, but the scumteam is not limited to one person. At the moment of writing the post you're quoting, it looked like a Shinichi lynch was going on, so I expressed my willingness to help out with it if needed. Seemed kind of necessary for me to speak up about what I think of the two of them. And in the end, my vote stayed on Wheat and day ended before I knew it.
Then tries to defend his flip flop on Shincihi away by just hand waving it away. And again doesn't explain his progression when D1 he spent probaly 1/4 of his words talking about how he was town reading Shinichi.
Quote from "Out of Context" »
You're defending Wheat by relying on his more recent posts where he's been frustrated (posts which are quite neutral if you ask me) while me and EL were scumreading him for reasons that date from much older
/corroborate the above.
I think we really need Shin's flip to actually move forward the gamestate. Also, might be a good idea for a protective role to target me tonight, since I should be basically lock clear with a scum!shin flip.
Ok, this post makes me feel very good about shadow. If Shin is scum, then I'm not sure why shadow would discuss him being scum with Grape during N1. If Shin is town, then in this post above shadow is pushing for his lynch all the while being convinced that a scum!shin flip would townlock him. This looks like a very non-instinctive post to make if shadow is a mafia who knows that Shinichi is town. Like, he would know Shinichi would flip town, but still post something as blunt as this?
Finally comments on Shadow after all this time and town reads him for a WIFOM post? Werid progression.
Role/vanilla cops are almost always scum aligned because it says nothing about the alignment of the player. Which mafia already knows. When they are town they are better served as being kept quiet to confirm people's claims as being truthful or not. That's why the particular design of this cop has me scratching my head. As for the latter part more than half the game has not claimed at all at this stage.
Guys, we're not talking about a vanilla cop here, we're talking about someone who gives a vanilla cop shot. This difference is important because it doesn't make AG any more scummy mechanically because he doesn't know if he's giving his shots to a townie or a mafia. If anything, the fact that mafia know the alignments and townies don't make me even more confident that AG is a townie himself, because his role adds a neat randomness to the game.
This bit of mechanical analysis is very strange to me. And the first bit of solid town reading on AG/LnGrrrR from him. For a read he's now talking about being something he's had for a long time this is the first bit of evidence I've seen saying he's had this read. And it appears to be based off of AG/LnGrrrR's role. Which is completely mind boggling given his claim now and that he had before this post commented on the idea that Shadow/Shin were a dichotomy so he'd be thinking in those terms. I'm getting very close to being ready to start voting.
Quote from QH »
Additional notes:
Prophylaxis: the way kpaca was being slaughtered on D1 is the biggest town-tell. I don't like how he was defending Wheat.
Grapefruit: apparently everyone is townreading this guy and I've yet to see actual reasoning for it. Am I blind? EternalLurker: the way his reads and opinions often mirror mine is the biggest town-tell. This could also be some massive pocketing but considering he can't read my mind, ya know. Somehow because of his presence the Wheat train became his responsibility instead of mine and my reasons for voting Wheat were almost robbed for a lack of a better word. There's also the fact he wanted to lynch someone who townread him (#1223), this is town-ish: if there was any time where EL would switch to Shin as scum, it would have been after this, but he didn't really budge.
RE1031: the reaction to Terry's trap or whatever is the biggest town-tell. And for #1234.
Terry: gonna quote myself here:
"I also have this super underground feeling that Terry knows something about Wheat and Shinichi's alignments. Mainly due to his conspiracy thing against EL, foreshadowing a townie flip from Shin/Wheat to make sure EL gets negative points for pushing such lynches. But given that I think Shinichi and Wheat are more likely scum (maybe not together, though! but in all likelihood, yeah) than Terry at this point, this is only an 'aside' line of thinking that could or not become useful."
Seems like this thinking might not have been entirely stupid.
Note the lack of firm town reads or scum reads. This is a person keeping their options open.
Also note the bolded given my earlier breakdown of his lack of anything past the first wall wrt WG.
If everyone is okay with it I will vote for him in the next 24 hours.
I'm in the same boat but I want to give people a chance to read and react to the walls I've been posting before we place any votes down. But short of my town reads telling me I'm stupid and pointing out how and why I'm in a tunnel I'm about ready to go.
I mainly want to hear from JT regarding any sort of concrete behavioral reads he has, RE's progression on me, and LnG catching up/trying to do any sort of scumhunting before moving on with the lynch.
RE: regarding my conversations with people, I think you're not correctly remembering (or you are attempting to sew distrust among us) if you think nothing has come from my chats alignment wise. I am heavily town reading grape, and what was said during chats is strengthening that to a point where I will basically never win if he's scum (and would actually be reasonably upset if he was). Proph I'm lukewarm about. Whatever I do, I keep coming back to kpaca's play, as well as some of the stuff grapefruit and I talked about. His saving grace right now is that he and QH are reasonably strongly unaligned (though I am at a point where I wouldn't bet the game on this) and QH doesn't look like a townie that's about to be mislynched. Terry, I've had as varying degrees of townie to briefly scummy to back to townie. The last few posts of our chat together actually has me feeling like I did near the end of Mistborn, which he was town and showed it through passion and just couldn't push past the opposition. So aside from being "interesting", what is your takeaway from this? You say I'm either pocketed or pocketing, but you kind of let that drop without going further into it, what's your point?
It's interesting and that's it. I don't know how the chats went first hand, my point is exactly that: "pocketed or pocketing." It comes down to how much you believe I (or the other two who haven't been chatted with) am town. From my point of view, someone in that group of 4 is scum. I guess this is aimed more at you than anyone, but if you are town, then you have chatted with scum for certain. As someone who has had the neighborizer ability used on them and gotten pocketed by scum, I know there are telltale signs for it. Namely asking tons of questions with a certain answer in mind. I know, it's something I can't prove and requires blind trust which I won't encourage either. So I'm just leaving it as "interesting" for now.
@Proph
I am good with you voting QH.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Day 1: I think kpaca is town based on pretty weak reasoning (anti-town players tend to be more often town than scum), and I actually agreed with QH's post that the
Day 2: Your posts seem alright, not scummy, though I didn't understand the QH read.
Day 3: I don't remember...
Day 4: I was reading you off of tone. Hard to explain, but there was some things present here not present in your scum games. Like the memes for starters.
Later day 4 (I think?): I stopped reading you off of tone.
Day 5: You actually defend yourself (and strongly), which surprised me and went against what I expected you to do as scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
It's still better for Town for the most part anyway, though, especially since I don't believe there's a second protective role. Rhand was almost certainly protective, given his role's name.
We don't have a roleblocker though so where did the kill go?
It wasn't a no-kill plan from scum either like you suggested lol. Four mafia in a 12 players game is a decent joke indeed.
I really hate making these sort of posts because they're almost always nothing, but this could be a slip. He sure seems confident it wasn't a no kill for a person who wasn't convinced that Rhand might have blocked the kill from the grave till later in this post.
This is probably a bit OMGUS but the fact that you keep shading me while not providing any evidence is piquing my interest. I kind of think I'm so widely town read that I'm spewed town at this stage. I don't think RE is even scum reading me anymore.
I'm not sure where I shaded you? It not like I think you're scum or anything, I'm just puzzled as to why you're so widely townread. Is 'spewed town' something like "the guy who everyone townreads for good measure, including the scum so they're not out of the loop"? If so I understand the concept, I just think it's weird to townread someone because everyone townreads him and I'm not gonna do it because I don't understand where these townreads are coming from.
Still think the bold quote is strange from the guy who dropped the "Bad vibes from Grapefruit" line.
The fact that you spent a lot of time re-litigating why Wheat is scummy is a huge red flag for me. Feels like trying to avoid blame. If EL hadn't done a bit of that as well I'd vote you right now for it.
Am I supposed to revisit the lynch and think "Yeah, Wheat wasn't scummy at all afterall! Darnit, what was I thinking..."? I mean sure, I'm bummed out that I was wrong, but that's about it. I don't really want blame for it so you're right in saying I want to avoid it, though if I deserve blame in the end that's not for me to judge.
In retrospect this is quite alarming to me (if you can't tell by now I'm convinced QH is scum and am laying out a case more than presenting both sides), why was his reaction thinking it was right to revisit it at all rather than just moving on and not assessing his on views on the WG lynch. That's not something that usually comes from town. Looking at other people's reasons on the same wagon as you? Sure, but almost never defending your own role in it without being prompted.
No, if you're reading Day 2 I'll agree that he was mostly somewhat null, but my read comes all the way from Day One. Overall, Grapefruit's reads on other players have seemed to change in very organic manners, which is my personal reason for Town-reading him: post #125 is a very Townie change of opinion in response to RE, for example.
Ahh thank you. I didn't even expect a response to this, and I like your reasoning so I feel better now. About you, not necessarily about Grape.
and from the same post
Quote from QH »
It not like I think you're scum or anything, I'm just puzzled as to why you're so widely townread. *snip* I just think it's weird to townread someone because everyone townreads him and I'm not gonna do it because I don't understand where these townreads are coming from.
This just isn't a real read.
I'm going to not get into the next post about this because it's me and QH debating whether or not that was a real read and we can just do that now.
1954 is the infamous wall off against Proph that has earned a lot of unaligned reads. I'm not going to break down the whole thing because most of it's focused on tiny details and not that interesting (also this is the longest 44 post ISO in the world) but there are a few good nuggets.
QH refers back to the post that prompts the question about his flip on Shinichi as a way of explaining it. The post he links to is not a satisfactory explanation for flipping a read on someone you spent a whole day defending. And then goes into talking about sheeping EL some more. It's baffling non answer. Hidden in a giant wall. scum+
He also randomly town reads Shin in the very last bit of that wall. Again showing a complete lack of consistency in his reads. I'd give him town credit for that if he'd then tried to move the lynch off Shinichi. But you can guess how that one goes.
Again that is a brutal post to actually read all the way through, but I really think you should.
1955 is just a bad post. I think Proph jumped all over it at the time, but it is really bad. It comes right on the heels of him town reading Shinichi at the very end of his last post and is immeadiately followed by him saying "Umm what makes you think so?
Shin is far from an easy case for me at this point, I don't have a good idea of what he is." when Terry says: "So you don't think Shin is mafia." Escape hatches being left open left right and center.
But even without that follow up 1955 still just doesn't feel like a town post. He's just not trying to solve the game at all.
He then further tries to defend it here and just isn't particularly convincing. I'm convinced so I'm not going to comment on it too much. Just want people to look at this, because Vaimes correctly takes down what's wrong with 1955.
@Vaimes I think going for a Shinichi lynch would be difficult as mafia. You never want to have only one lynch option to focus on, which is why you try to create a second townie wagon.
Plus, can you imagine if the scum team manages to keep Shin alive for LyLo? Town is lost.
I think it's fair to say that the Shinichi wagon has been stalled for a very long time, I'm not sure what's different here.
So yeah, Shin is either mafia, either mafia's tool towards a win.
And then there is this which is pretty stark. And again from someone whose only reason for scum reading Shin is that he's sheeping EL.
For the record, I really like Terry's reads from here onwards. Not for the content (although that's good too) as much as it is for the effort behind them. I reaaally don't see scum rereading the thread and writing fresh reads when town Shinichi is on the lynch podium. However I don't agree that AG's role makes no sense for town because to me it makes more sense for town than for scum. I already explained why. That usually holds true to me for any role which gives out an ability.
His shot on RE is close to convincing me but I still think the flip-flopping has townie intent behind it, so I'm not gonna scumread him from that. Plus his claim timing was pretty slick, almost careless. Which annoyingly enough leads me to agree with Proph's #2055.
Why is Terry being read for effort but not Proph. Or me? When he's saying it's not about Terry's reads which he doesn't completely agree with. Say it with me one more time: "This just isn't a real read."
Quote from QH »
About the shadow-Shinichi alignment problem. I think I've said this before, but I'm really reluctant to base my reads on that. I'd rather focus on their posts, ya know? I'd like to take the easy route and say shadow is likely scum, but we all know that's not fair at all, right? A neighborizer can be scum, sure, but shadow's posts have mostly been townie to me and the problem I had with him on D1 has disappeared. Plus, it's really odd that he'd push a Shinichi lynch with all his might when everyone's gonna suspect him once he flips town because of roles and game balance and *****. As for the Grape-Rhand issue, I don't really care about what Rhand really is but I do think he had a protective ability which activated post-mortem. But disreguarding Rhand, Grape's claim is scummy by itself. I'll get to that.
I actually do like almost everything about this part. It's not saying a ton but it tracks with what I'm thinking. But the ending I have problems with for obvious reasons. Also hold on and see if he actually has reasons beyond the dichotomy with Rhand for my claim being scummy (spoilers: he does, but they make no sense and without the dichotomy aren't based on this game at all).
Quote from QH »
The fact that EL is pushing so incredibly hard on Terry (D4) and that no one is following must mean something that's in-between some surrounding players being careful scum (which is weird because they have nothing to fear in lynching a townie in a game-deciding phase) OR that one of EL or Terry is scum. Edit: EL flipped town, and Terry is... my new biggest townread for other things.
This is actually a good point and I wish he'd expanded on it more. I think it can be explained by Terry being town and no living townies being willing to move on him, but it bears closer examination to see if that holds up.
Quote from QH »
I was supposed to say something about Grape's #2060 because I put that post's link in my notes but I'm not sure where I should be going with it anymore. I suppose it's still a post worthy of interest considering it's a reads summary trying to finalize the game.
Which alignment is more likely to flag a post in their notes and not remember what they wanted to say about it? Small small small tiny tell. But it's another drop in the bucket that's already overflowing for me.
Quote from QH »
@Terry's #2190
I feel sorry that you had to think about all of this stuff on your own, because "I'm not going to let this jump on me happen" was not a soft claim by any means, and at end of phase I wasn't lurking or anything: I was just not here.
I think #2284 is a legitimate townclaim. I like the buildup to it. This biggest thing that bothers me about Terry right now is that EL was the only one delusionally going after them, so killing him wouldn't be suspicious at all and would remove most if not all pressure from Terry.
Well that's a fun rollercoaster. That closing sentence isn't a town sentence.
So I was LnGrrrR's target for the vanilla cop last night, but I'm going to wait to reveal my target. Read into that what you will.
FoS: QH
I think your target is pretty obvious considering I haven't claimed yet. And since I believe you're scum, I suppose this post right here is some kind of foreshadowing, since you probably want me to claim so you can say "nope, I checked him and that's not what he is!"
There is a recurring pattern throughout this ISO that keeps cropping up. QH is very active at doing 3 specific things. Tying himself to a widely read townie (D1 Vaimes, D2-4 EL, D5 Terry), defending himself, and dropping scum reads while not pushing them. Those three repeat themselves over and over again and do not strike me as pro town behavior. It's a pattern best explained by him being scum and this post above is just another example of him being defensive.
No, from a mechanical standpoint it just makes no sense. It doesn't matter how you slice my accusations of you, BP town, no mater who it is, is a fake claim in this game. You played an excellent game up until you claimed.
While I do agree that it is likely a fake claim, I feel like you're brushing it off way too easily. I townread shadowlx and the AG slot to some extent, but if I was to be wrong about them, then Grapefruit's role doesn't look that misplaced. Of course, with my role as town, I'm even more convinced that my townreads are fine (maybe one of them is wrong) and that Grape is just straight-up lying, but I've gotta be cautious.
This one is just for the bold text of my own bolding.
Quote from QH »
I'm town, AG is my protégé, Vaimes is town, Shinichi is town, shadow and RE I'm willing to argue that they're town, I like EL and Terry for their effort. I'm the type of guy who likes effort and who usually sees it as townie, ironically enough. This leaves me with Grapefruit who I think is a PR other than bodyguard, and Proph. Third scum has to be between shadowlx and RE for me. On one hand, shadowlx is a PR (that makes 2 PRs 1 goon) and has been Grape and Proph's best friend ability-wise. On the other, RE is a vanilla of unknown alignment (that makes 1 PR two goons, which I'm not sure makes more sense (we have four power roles: Death Guard, Crier, my role and Vanilla Cop Giver), and is now willing to lynch Proph.
This comes completely out of nowhere. Seriously I've spent a few hours looking through this ISO and this AG read that is being passed off as if he's had it for a while in his next post comes completely out of left field. Search it for yourself. It just isn't a real read.
And as for his claim post I went into it here at the time I thought it made sense as a claim but in retrospect it makes zero sense given his POV of town shadow and AG. That gives him as targets the NK, the mysterious third scums PR (who isn't Shadow, AG, or Terry so it has to be RE), Proph who was cleared as Vanilla by Shadow, and my role which is why it's weird he spent some amount of time saying Terry was too quick to disregard my claim as fake. When from his POV either AG/LnGrrrR has to be scum, my role has to be a lie, or his role is useless. It just doesn't add up.
So with those problems of the role not fitting, and everything else I outlined in that post QH is just scum here.
I want to hear from Terry and Shadow before voting, but I'm about ready to go.
Hello all! I haven't read the whole game, But I read the last ten pages or so and GF felt the towniest, plus claimed a tiny role. RE and StinkyTerry feel the scummiest to me, but I am on my phone so I will have to share why later. Terry's antagonism towards GF discussing the cop shot is one example.
I'm kicking myself for not following up with this at the time: but what in particular stuck out about me as being townie?
At this point the suspense is doing worse things to me than losing on a QH mislynch would. I've got the awful pit of my stomach feeling that we're just going to get it wrong, but I have nothing to substantiate that feeling, and grape's analysis of QH iso is darn good.
@Proph, not a fan of the subtle "do any scumhunting" shade. Trying to get centered in this game as a suspected-scum replacement is a PITA without a scum flip to base reads off of. I work far better off reactions to my thoughts than trying to fight through the WIFOM. I'll continue to dig through and look for things but I feel very much like the new kid at school.
You seemed to be leading the town in a fair way, plus you claimed bulletproof and gauging from the reactions of the rest of the players, they didn't have huge problems with it. I will try to dig up a particular post later when I have a moment.
Reading that big wall post about Shin, I was struck by one thing. There was a wagon on Shin, but also a wagon on WG.
So my question is, if Shin wasn't lynched when QH posted, and WG had a counter-wagon on him, why didn't QH try to push the WG wagon? If I had a town read on one of wagon, and a scum read on another, and both were equal wagons, I don't think I would resignedly post that I'm ok with a lynch on my townie read.
EBWODP: Reading Post 737 compared to post 1344 is weird, given the equal competing wagons on both of them.
Exactly. I don't see how someone who made 737 and spent D1 town reading Shinichi at every opportunity flips into that post. It just doesn't add up to me and there isn't a textual progression that explains it at all.
Every single person has expressed willingness to lynch QH on this page. Let's go ahead and see this through.
Vote QH
That's kind of what I'm worried about. But I kind of agree with #2629. The thing I can't get over is that I don't really see who QH would be watching. I don't like that Grape is pushing QH so hard because I don't buy the BP claim still.
Shadow, can you unvote just while I do a little housekeeping and then you can vote again?
Ok, I have another theory then I'm ready to vote. I think QH messed up and accidentally outed Lng as well.
His first even mention of QH since replacing in is a soft defense of him here.
Also, this struck me as a weird thing to say by QH:
I'm town, AG is my protégé
Jack Crawford, Town FBI Director
But LnG is Hannibal Lector. I did wiki research. Flavorwise (even if it mattered), Jack Crawford actually brings Hannibal in to help with his investigation. His former protege is actually a man named Will Thomas. So a flavor connection shouldn't exist. So why even mention it. I see this protege slip as the type of thing used to explain your scum team in role PMs.
Day 1: I think kpaca is town based on pretty weak reasoning (anti-town players tend to be more often town than scum), and I actually agreed with QH's post that he's not so good with a kpaca lynch.
Day 2: Your posts seem alright, not scummy, though I didn't understand the QH read.
Day 3: I don't remember...
Day 4: I was reading you off of tone. Hard to explain, but there was some things present here not present in your scum games. Like the memes for starters.
Later day 4 (I think?): I stopped reading you off of tone.
Day 5: You actually defend yourself (and strongly), which surprised me and went against what I expected you to do as scum.
Can you explain Day 5? Why would defending myself cause you to change your read on me? What would you expect me to do if I was scum?
I really don't understand why you don't remember me on Day 3/4? I dunno, I posted a fair number of times and it's kind of strange that your read on me is mostly based on tone instead of "I read a Proph post, this is what I think about it and why" which is what I was kiiind of hoping for here.
@Proph, not a fan of the subtle "do any scumhunting" shade. Trying to get centered in this game as a suspected-scum replacement is a PITA without a scum flip to base reads off of. I work far better off reactions to my thoughts than trying to fight through the WIFOM. I'll continue to dig through and look for things but I feel very much like the new kid at school.
I really appreciate that, but the problem is that I can't really remember your posts thus far. I want to hear thoughts about where you are and where your reads are at, and you've just mostly been.. Sitting there. Like, I asked you a question asking you what your reads were on RE and I, I believe, and you didn't answer it.
I dunno. I do appreciate you replacing in, even if it's to a doomed slot, and trying your best, but if you're are somehow town show me SOMETHING. (But I don't really think you're town because of PoE)
@Proph, keep interacting with me. I play better when engaged, and reading walls of text with no scum flips makes me eyes glaze over, especially when I see an attack and I am like, "Oooh that makes sense!" and then I remember its confirmed town vs confirmed town. It is hard to get a sense for what is and isn't WIFOM.
@Proph, keep interacting with me. I play better when engaged, and reading walls of text with no scum flips makes me eyes glaze over, especially when I see an attack and I am like, "Oooh that makes sense!" and then I remember its confirmed town vs confirmed town. It is hard to get a sense for what is and isn't WIFOM.
Rhand DG
WG VT
Vaimes VT
Shin Announcer
EL VT
SJT VT
Proph VT
Shadow Neighborizer
QH Watcher
Scum
RE VT (Claimed)
Grape BP (Claimed)
Lng Vanilla Cop Giver
Rhand DG
WG VT
Vaimes VT
Shin Announcer
EL VT
SJT VT
Proph VT
Grape BP
QH Watcher
Scum
Shadow Neighborizer
RE VT (Claimed)
Lng Vanilla Cop Giver
Rhand DG
WG VT
Vaimes VT
Shin Announcer
EL VT
SJT VT
Shadow Neighborizer
RE VT
QH Watcher
Scum
Proph VT
Grape BP (Claimed)
Lng Vanilla Cop Giver
I'm pretty convinced that there is no way QH is town telling the truth. His role is useless if he is. The only thing holding me back is the existence of useless roles for the sake of being red herrings.
As pretty as I can be,
And all the boys in the neighborhood
Are crazy over me.
My boyfriend's name is Jerry
He is so very scary.
With retractable toes and a bloodhound nose,
He knows everywhere my body goes.
Votecount 5.1 - With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.
Not Voting: Grapefruit21, LnGrrrR, Prophylaxis, Quickhoodies, RE1031, shadowlancerx, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Please inform me of any errors.
Deadline is Monday, September 4th, at 9am MDT.
Well, honestly, I had no idea what you were talking about but didn't see it as important at the time
I thought I just missed where QH said it (which was actually the case), but then I couldn't find it (temporarily).
When you realize they aren't reading your posts... CryingJordan.jpg
68 is the first post that jumps out at me. Most of it feels NAI, but that interaction with Vaimes at the end is interesting. Goes out of his way to comment on Vaimes being town while discrediting his read. Also puts intent into Vaimes words while not showing a ton of interest in learning more from Vaimes response. Slight scum+
This (31) plus 68 are a pattern of awkward interactions with Kpaca. Meaningless but probably a little more evidence that Proph/QH are unaligned.
108 is a doozy. The first of the walls we've come to know and love from QH. Starts off defensively with a self meta based defense. Scum+ Promises not to lurk and claims they never lurk so already broken the self meta Anyway he goes on to defend the content of his previous post that Mindreaver was pushing him over. And in expanding on the weird Vaimes/Kpaca read that gave me scum vibes earlier says this:
And continues to say nothing except for softly defending Kpaca and just lightly undermining Vaimes argument. Still getting scum+ from this whole interaction.
And all of that was in defense of having a post saying nothing. And still said very little to that stage.
Anyway the post continues.
Town reads Vaimes and makes a self conscious joke about scum dragging out RVS. Scum+ but that is pure conf bias on my part I think.
Defends Shinichi and answers a question from Shadow for him. Which is a red flag.
Has this bizare interaction with Shadow:
Where he just looks at things at a very surface level. Doesn't try to figure out what Shadow's intent is, or what that question could be valuable. Just shades it. Scum+ and anti synergy with Shadow.
Next part is a town read on Shin that leaves an escape hatch open to get out of it.
The follow up question is solid to Shinichi about clearing up Shin's read on Vaimes.
And another slight distancing bit between Shadow and QH wraps it up.
Summary of that giant post is that QH is very defensive and is really trying to sort out Shinichi and Vaimes. Which while the latter is good, the former isn't.
393 is another doozy. So let's just skip to the end. He'd set himself up in his previous big post to jump onto Shadow and follows through here. His earlier doubts were focused on Shadow's "pragmatics based questions" and the comment about pocketing me. Let's first pull out anything he's added in this wall and see what else we have.
*reading*
Huh, not a single quote of Shadow in the whole thing. Now that's a bit strange.
And there are only two mentions of him. One is a response to an earlier push of mine about his "pragmatics based questions" question being bad and the other is saying WG and Shadow haven't interacted at all so they work as scum together.
Feels like a very forced vote. Again is giving me non-aligned vibes between those two. And scum vibes from QH.
Thoughts on the content of the wall itself in next post.
It starts off self conscious again. Commenting that no one called them out for the length of their 108. Which suggests they care very much what people are thinking about them.
And let's go bullet point style summary for a while:
Scum points given to AG, while defending Shin.
Gets super defensive over a bit of pressure from Mindreaver. Again.
Defends Shin and suggests that asking for why you made a post requires knowing why the questioner didn't like the post. Feels like he's trying hard to pocket Shin.
Defends his shading of Shadows questions. Saying I should know why he was shading them.
Talks about vaimes seeming to brush off WG's vote. town+
More Shinichi Buddying! THis time over Terry's entrance.
Finds out he knows another player. Gives a meta based town lean.
Back to shading Shadow's questions. Getting close to calling those two hard unaligned. Missed that one in my earlier write up >_>
Defends Shin some more, and possibly soft defends Kpaca? Not sure what that is acually saying. This is in the response to RE about town reading Shin.
Defends Vaimes from WG on the basis of defending oneself being neutral. Which QH would strongly like to be read as neutral given how much he's been defending himself.
And again town reading Shinichi.
Gives Vaimes defending him a thumbs up.
Makes a very solid point that Kpaca's defense of Shin is the sort of thing more likely to come from scum trying to earn town credit than from defending a scum buddy town+
Defends RE and Shin, while also town leaning Terry. The rare triple town read about three people forming a chain of scum reads. Don't think that one means anything. Just funny.
Town reads RE based off of honest tone of admitting they were over pressuring something. Possible buddy vibes between RE/QH there.
And I just can't sum these up 1 by 1 anymore. This post is too long. Back to only pulling out ones that strike me as interesting.
I really like this one actually. It's quite funny. That said the conf biasing part of me that wants LnGrrrR and QH to both be scum is screaming coaching at it. But I really probably shouldn't listen to that part of me right now.
Next quote says he's agreeing with Vaimes and proceeds to completely disagree with what Vaimes was saying. Feels like pushing an agenda. Even if it's over as something as small and inconsequential as a null read vs a town read.
He also starts laying the groundwork for the WG push based on how thirsty WG was to push Vaimes.
He then sums up where he is on the game town reading 3 dead townies and Terry. Putting WG/Shadow/ and kind of AG at scum, and everyone else in the need to sort out pile. Suggests Vaimes is probably lock town if WG is scum, before back tracking it in the same sentence.
All in all my big takeaway from this post is his selective scope of interests. He votes Shadow but the 3 topics he keeps latching onto are town reading Vaimes, Town reading Shinichi, and defending himself. Almost every response in that entire wall is towards one of those three goals. Which tells me that QH is playing with an agenda.
Terry, while I appreciate your effort here immensely, and am feeling really a lot better about you overall from where I was at the start of our chat, your willingness to clear teams based on what you think I absolutely wouldn't do kind of makes me worry that you might be doing the same with other people. I said this earlier this game, but it bears repeating because it is most likely true for any good scum player, and that is I will do literally anything as scum that isn't against the spirit of the game. I could totally see myself drawing scum neighborizor and targeting a buddy for the exact reason you're clearing teams for. Again, it doesn't actually matter here, but I do think you would benefit from making sure you're not doing the same sort of clear for someone else in later days.
RE: regarding my conversations with people, I think you're not correctly remembering (or you are attempting to sew distrust among us) if you think nothing has come from my chats alignment wise. I am heavily town reading grape, and what was said during chats is strengthening that to a point where I will basically never win if he's scum (and would actually be reasonably upset if he was). Proph I'm lukewarm about. Whatever I do, I keep coming back to kpaca's play, as well as some of the stuff grapefruit and I talked about. His saving grace right now is that he and QH are reasonably strongly unaligned (though I am at a point where I wouldn't bet the game on this) and QH doesn't look like a townie that's about to be mislynched. Terry, I've had as varying degrees of townie to briefly scummy to back to townie. The last few posts of our chat together actually has me feeling like I did near the end of Mistborn, which he was town and showed it through passion and just couldn't push past the opposition. So aside from being "interesting", what is your takeaway from this? You say I'm either pocketed or pocketing, but you kind of let that drop without going further into it, what's your point?
Then he has an interaction with Shadow, who QH voted in his last post and promised to follow up with more on, and says this in response to Shadow saying RE isn't leaving much of an impression on him:
That just doesn't feel like a real reaction to someone you're scum reading. He shows no interest in RE's post having substance or not and minimal interest in figuring out if Shadow is using that excuse to push anything. More suggesting that Shadow/QH are not aligned.
Also suggests that he's okay with lynching Kpaca.
Very next post no longer okay lynching Kpaca and then gives this big wall against it:
Hijacking this because I can say he has been. The game he referred to earlier with the scum fake claiming BP he was the game losing mislynch in a final 3 (while Hydra'd with Shinichi). To my eyes he showed more effort in that game, but I'm in a confirmation bias tunnel at this point.
On a similar note to this I'm getting very worried that we've been writing off Proph/QH scum teams. I've gone into it a bit in my recent walls, but QH's progression on Kpaca does not feel natural at all.
For my own sanity I'm not going to read his wall on WG. But I will keep an eye out going forward for how he treats WG this phase. You would think coming out of a wall that certain you'd be pretty incentivized to make sure that lynch gets followed through with. To my recolection QH doesn't.
A little bit more self conscious worry about getting scum read.
Next wall not a single mention of WG to be found. Curious.
Another wall another conspicuous absence of WG mentions.
Another wall and only a passing mention of WG. In the context of saying that well him and Shadow work together as scum!
Again a huge lack of interest from someone in pursuing a scum read that they made a post so long about the forum marked it as spam. It's been roughly 400 posts and a week of real time and that's his only follow up mention of WG. Doesn't feel like a real scum read to me.
Then we have this infamous (to me post):
Reiterates the WG read that he hasn't been pushing and shades me based on nothing. I've largely been mentioned in positive ways by him (apart from the paranoid EoD1 post) so this is out of nowhere. And his next two posts don't explain it at all. It just shows the lack of game solving intent that is evident looking through his ISO.
And here is a goldmine he flips on his Shinichi read. With very little preamble or reasoning. Just says okay, Shin can be scum too. From the guy who spent all of D1 town reading Shin over just about everything that Shinichi did. I just don't buy this progression coming from town. And I know I've been posting a ton but this one is a big find. He rarely had a post that didn't call Shin town D1 and now flips on very little reasoning and with no preamble in the posts leading up to it. He was still town reading Shin in his previous wall here.
You might say that AG's role makes more sense for town than for scum, but what do you think about AG/LnG's behavior? And I don't really understand how you could be townreading LnG when you have the role you claimed.
What was the problem you had on him on Day 1?
Why do you think shadow is town?
Who do you think is scum at the moment, and why?
"Oh, here's this person I think might be scum. And I'm going to test the waters on him to see if a lynch on him would pan out. But it wouldn't, so I'm not going to do anything about it."
This post doesn't come from a town mindset at all IMO. And I don't even know the reasons as to why you are scumreading me.
I'm interested as to why other people think about you because I think you're scum and I want you to be lynched.
:rollseyes:
So basically you're bringing up your meta as a reason for other people to townread you? I don't see really much of anything this game that makes me think that you might be town.
I want to see some behavioral reads out of you, though, not "working through every scumteam to see what makes sense". Like, is there anyone you think is town at the moment?
I do think your theorizing about all possible scumteams is townie but I want you to get on the same page as I am - and that's in the realm of behavior, not relying on claims.
If he's town, then shame on me, I'll apologize postgame for it. He's just.. hasn't done anything Townie or anything to show for it, though.
His claim makes zero sense in this setup and it's not provable. Grape's ISO of him is very good and I encourage people to read it. QH has had zero progression in reads and he's not interested in scumhunting. Like, look at how he keeps putting out feelers for a possible mislynch on me AND he says he's okay with his inactivity. This is scum trying to coast, not town trying to solve the game. Him just OMGUSing Grape and I feels really lazy.
If everyone is okay with it I will vote for him in the next 24 hours.
So this whopper of a post starts off here. The whole going with the flow thing drew some well deserved flack. Also his first 3 choices for scum are all still alive and 2 of them are among the most town read players at this stage.
Then tries to defend his flip flop on Shincihi away by just hand waving it away. And again doesn't explain his progression when D1 he spent probaly 1/4 of his words talking about how he was town reading Shinichi.
Tying himself to EL.
Finally comments on Shadow after all this time and town reads him for a WIFOM post? Werid progression.
Dodges again on his Shinichi switcheroo. Acting as if sheeping EL is enough to explain it.
This bit of mechanical analysis is very strange to me. And the first bit of solid town reading on AG/LnGrrrR from him. For a read he's now talking about being something he's had for a long time this is the first bit of evidence I've seen saying he's had this read. And it appears to be based off of AG/LnGrrrR's role. Which is completely mind boggling given his claim now and that he had before this post commented on the idea that Shadow/Shin were a dichotomy so he'd be thinking in those terms. I'm getting very close to being ready to start voting.
Note the lack of firm town reads or scum reads. This is a person keeping their options open.
Also note the bolded given my earlier breakdown of his lack of anything past the first wall wrt WG.
I'm in the same boat but I want to give people a chance to read and react to the walls I've been posting before we place any votes down. But short of my town reads telling me I'm stupid and pointing out how and why I'm in a tunnel I'm about ready to go.
I mainly want to hear from JT regarding any sort of concrete behavioral reads he has, RE's progression on me, and LnG catching up/trying to do any sort of scumhunting before moving on with the lynch.
It's interesting and that's it. I don't know how the chats went first hand, my point is exactly that: "pocketed or pocketing." It comes down to how much you believe I (or the other two who haven't been chatted with) am town. From my point of view, someone in that group of 4 is scum. I guess this is aimed more at you than anyone, but if you are town, then you have chatted with scum for certain. As someone who has had the neighborizer ability used on them and gotten pocketed by scum, I know there are telltale signs for it. Namely asking tons of questions with a certain answer in mind. I know, it's something I can't prove and requires blind trust which I won't encourage either. So I'm just leaving it as "interesting" for now.
@Proph
I am good with you voting QH.
Let me sleep on it.
Day 1: I think kpaca is town based on pretty weak reasoning (anti-town players tend to be more often town than scum), and I actually agreed with QH's post that the
Day 2: Your posts seem alright, not scummy, though I didn't understand the QH read.
Day 3: I don't remember...
Day 4: I was reading you off of tone. Hard to explain, but there was some things present here not present in your scum games. Like the memes for starters.
Later day 4 (I think?): I stopped reading you off of tone.
Day 5: You actually defend yourself (and strongly), which surprised me and went against what I expected you to do as scum.
If you think about it, this works whether I am town or scum. After all, I could be goading you into lynching scum as a townie.
I really hate making these sort of posts because they're almost always nothing, but this could be a slip. He sure seems confident it wasn't a no kill for a person who wasn't convinced that Rhand might have blocked the kill from the grave till later in this post.
Still think the bold quote is strange from the guy who dropped the "Bad vibes from Grapefruit" line.
In retrospect this is quite alarming to me (if you can't tell by now I'm convinced QH is scum and am laying out a case more than presenting both sides), why was his reaction thinking it was right to revisit it at all rather than just moving on and not assessing his on views on the WG lynch. That's not something that usually comes from town. Looking at other people's reasons on the same wagon as you? Sure, but almost never defending your own role in it without being prompted.
and from the same post
This just isn't a real read.
I'm going to not get into the next post about this because it's me and QH debating whether or not that was a real read and we can just do that now.
1954 is the infamous wall off against Proph that has earned a lot of unaligned reads. I'm not going to break down the whole thing because most of it's focused on tiny details and not that interesting (also this is the longest 44 post ISO in the world) but there are a few good nuggets.
QH refers back to the post that prompts the question about his flip on Shinichi as a way of explaining it. The post he links to is not a satisfactory explanation for flipping a read on someone you spent a whole day defending. And then goes into talking about sheeping EL some more. It's baffling non answer. Hidden in a giant wall. scum+
He also randomly town reads Shin in the very last bit of that wall. Again showing a complete lack of consistency in his reads. I'd give him town credit for that if he'd then tried to move the lynch off Shinichi. But you can guess how that one goes.
Again that is a brutal post to actually read all the way through, but I really think you should.
1955 is just a bad post. I think Proph jumped all over it at the time, but it is really bad. It comes right on the heels of him town reading Shinichi at the very end of his last post and is immeadiately followed by him saying "Umm what makes you think so?
Shin is far from an easy case for me at this point, I don't have a good idea of what he is." when Terry says: "So you don't think Shin is mafia." Escape hatches being left open left right and center.
But even without that follow up 1955 still just doesn't feel like a town post. He's just not trying to solve the game at all.
He then further tries to defend it here and just isn't particularly convincing. I'm convinced so I'm not going to comment on it too much. Just want people to look at this, because Vaimes correctly takes down what's wrong with 1955.
And then there is this which is pretty stark. And again from someone whose only reason for scum reading Shin is that he's sheeping EL.
There are a bunch of promises of catchup posts that come from both town!QH and scum!QH that we'll breeze by.
Then there is this IIOA gem about Lylo's.
Nice guy post correcting Proph for misreading what I'm saying. Even if he's scum I still love you QH.
Then we have the D5 wall.
Why is Terry being read for effort but not Proph. Or me? When he's saying it's not about Terry's reads which he doesn't completely agree with. Say it with me one more time: "This just isn't a real read."
I actually do like almost everything about this part. It's not saying a ton but it tracks with what I'm thinking. But the ending I have problems with for obvious reasons. Also hold on and see if he actually has reasons beyond the dichotomy with Rhand for my claim being scummy (spoilers: he does, but they make no sense and without the dichotomy aren't based on this game at all).
This is actually a good point and I wish he'd expanded on it more. I think it can be explained by Terry being town and no living townies being willing to move on him, but it bears closer examination to see if that holds up.
Which alignment is more likely to flag a post in their notes and not remember what they wanted to say about it? Small small small tiny tell. But it's another drop in the bucket that's already overflowing for me.
Well that's a fun rollercoaster. That closing sentence isn't a town sentence.
There is a recurring pattern throughout this ISO that keeps cropping up. QH is very active at doing 3 specific things. Tying himself to a widely read townie (D1 Vaimes, D2-4 EL, D5 Terry), defending himself, and dropping scum reads while not pushing them. Those three repeat themselves over and over again and do not strike me as pro town behavior. It's a pattern best explained by him being scum and this post above is just another example of him being defensive.
Why does that garner a big town read? And he was already your biggest town read? So what did that change? And why?
This one is just for the bold text of my own bolding.
This comes completely out of nowhere. Seriously I've spent a few hours looking through this ISO and this AG read that is being passed off as if he's had it for a while in his next post comes completely out of left field. Search it for yourself. It just isn't a real read.
And as for his claim post I went into it here at the time I thought it made sense as a claim but in retrospect it makes zero sense given his POV of town shadow and AG. That gives him as targets the NK, the mysterious third scums PR (who isn't Shadow, AG, or Terry so it has to be RE), Proph who was cleared as Vanilla by Shadow, and my role which is why it's weird he spent some amount of time saying Terry was too quick to disregard my claim as fake. When from his POV either AG/LnGrrrR has to be scum, my role has to be a lie, or his role is useless. It just doesn't add up.
So with those problems of the role not fitting, and everything else I outlined in that post QH is just scum here.
I want to hear from Terry and Shadow before voting, but I'm about ready to go.
I'm kicking myself for not following up with this at the time: but what in particular stuck out about me as being townie?
@Proph, not a fan of the subtle "do any scumhunting" shade. Trying to get centered in this game as a suspected-scum replacement is a PITA without a scum flip to base reads off of. I work far better off reactions to my thoughts than trying to fight through the WIFOM. I'll continue to dig through and look for things but I feel very much like the new kid at school.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
You seemed to be leading the town in a fair way, plus you claimed bulletproof and gauging from the reactions of the rest of the players, they didn't have huge problems with it. I will try to dig up a particular post later when I have a moment.
Reading that big wall post about Shin, I was struck by one thing. There was a wagon on Shin, but also a wagon on WG.
Votecount on post #1240 has two wagons.
Votecount 2.5 - With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.
Shinichi (4): shadowlancerx, Grapefruit21, Wheat_Grinder, RE1031
Wheat_Grinder (4): Quickhoodies, AtheistGod, EternalLurker, Vaimes
Prophylaxis (1): Shinichi
Not Voting: Prophylaxis, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Post #1344 has QH "ok" with a Shin lynch, even though per GF, he was townreading Shin.
Then, the wagon eventually formed around WG. This post is from post #1507.
Votecount 2.6 - With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.
Shinichi (2): shadowlancerx, Wheat_Grinder
Wheat_Grinder (6): Quickhoodies, AtheistGod, Vaimes, RE1031, EternalLurker, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Prophylaxis (1): Shinichi
AtheistGod (1): Grapefruit21
Not Voting: Prophylaxis
So my question is, if Shin wasn't lynched when QH posted, and WG had a counter-wagon on him, why didn't QH try to push the WG wagon? If I had a town read on one of wagon, and a scum read on another, and both were equal wagons, I don't think I would resignedly post that I'm ok with a lynch on my townie read.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Exactly. I don't see how someone who made 737 and spent D1 town reading Shinichi at every opportunity flips into that post. It just doesn't add up to me and there isn't a textual progression that explains it at all.
Vote QH
Shadow, can you unvote just while I do a little housekeeping and then you can vote again?
Sure that's fine.
USE MY CHART!!!!!
This will be such a helpful tool moving on. As soon as we get a scum flip and town is killed tonight, it will eliminate a ton of those options.
His first even mention of QH since replacing in is a soft defense of him here.
Also, this struck me as a weird thing to say by QH:
But LnG is Hannibal Lector. I did wiki research. Flavorwise (even if it mattered), Jack Crawford actually brings Hannibal in to help with his investigation. His former protege is actually a man named Will Thomas. So a flavor connection shouldn't exist. So why even mention it. I see this protege slip as the type of thing used to explain your scum team in role PMs.
VOTE: QH
Can you explain Day 5? Why would defending myself cause you to change your read on me? What would you expect me to do if I was scum?
I really don't understand why you don't remember me on Day 3/4? I dunno, I posted a fair number of times and it's kind of strange that your read on me is mostly based on tone instead of "I read a Proph post, this is what I think about it and why" which is what I was kiiind of hoping for here.
I dunno. I do appreciate you replacing in, even if it's to a doomed slot, and trying your best, but if you're are somehow town show me SOMETHING. (But I don't really think you're town because of PoE)
Really really hoping we get our first scum flip here.
@Terry, nope, no mention whatsoever.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
"Dang, my fakeclaim wasn't good enough?"
The hell are you talking about.
Seems like the wrong place to focus on IMO
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!