I was in no way "drive by shading you", my opinion on your slot has been pretty in the open, kpaca interactions with Shin were terrible. As far as your posts, pretty much the first half of everything you posted today I liked, you came into the thread, took everything in and got down to business. The second half feels a little more forced, but not as much as I'd thought.
I...maybe I'm confbiasing a little much on my assumption that shin and you are buddies.
What is your read on my slot without taking into account your read on Shinichi? I won't deny that kpaca was playing poorly, though, but you need to take into account his behavior as well as mine when you are evaluating my slot.
You, on the other hand, made me worried with that "trap" incident; I was strongly Town-reading you before that, but that docked you a few points, to a more moderate Town-lean.
Explain why you think that JT is more likely scum with the trap incident? Because that's a big factor as to why I am townreading JT.
And yeah, my read on the kpaca slot is now more on the negative-neutral than on the positive-neutral side, because of Proph's play.
Obviously not convinced at all about Proph though (relative to what I think of Wheat and Shinichi), because I'm still conflicted concerning what I talked about in my previous post: "With all the defense I've seen these three players do towards each other, I don't feel like Proph would just do what she's doing right now. On one hand this seems like the exact type of situation I know she would bus in, on the other hand she mentioned in-thread that she very much likes to bus as scum (or something like that) and it's the fact that she mentioned it which bugs me."
What?
1. How does my play this phase trend your read on my slot towards the negative-neutral rather than the positive-neutral vibe? If kpaca was still here and shiptoasting would you still have a more positive view of him?
2. Why are you making post-flip reads when not a single member of the scumteam has flipped yet?
3. Why does me mentioning that I like to bus more as scum more bug you? I am just telling you guys how I play when I roll scum (ie, I am a terrible scum player, so I bus to cover that fact up).
1. What if Wheat is scum and is pocketing me + my reads this game have gone to heck?
2. I kiind of want to look at shadow more given that he hasn't done much other than tunnel on Shinichi the entire Day. Ditto with Grapefruit as well I guess? I still think both are likely town but a Shinichi townflip would make me look at those two more.
3. AtheistGod deserves a reread as well given that his behavior isn't really that great.
3. In the nightmare scenario where Shinichi and Wheat are BOTH town, I want to look at QH.
------
In the event where Shinichi flips scum then I think Wheat is incredibly likely to be even more town. I would definitely destroy AtheistGod and QH then for pushing the counterwagon. Plus shadow would essentially be lock town.
So yeah, this is where I am at as of right now. I still think Shinichi is scum but I am.. afraid of him flipping town, if that is the correct word for it. I've been thinking about this game and basically been wondering "What if Shinichi flips town" and getting worried, because it would mean that I'd need to re-evaluate somewhere.
As opposed to the best case scenario where I am correct in my reads and get to dunk my PoE and watch them all flip scum.
Sorry for spamposting guys, it's just that I have a fair amount to catch-up on and a lot to say about this game so I'm splitting it into multiple posts for readability.
Shinichi, if you're town, can you give any last thoughts? Who do you think is town? Who do you think is scum?
I was in no way "drive by shading you", my opinion on your slot has been pretty in the open, kpaca interactions with Shin were terrible. As far as your posts, pretty much the first half of everything you posted today I liked, you came into the thread, took everything in and got down to business. The second half feels a little more forced, but not as much as I'd thought.
I...maybe I'm confbiasing a little much on my assumption that shin and you are buddies.
What is your read on my slot without taking into account your read on Shinichi? I won't deny that kpaca was playing poorly, though, but you need to take into account his behavior as well as mine when you are evaluating my slot.
So I abhor kpaca's play in general, and outside of the association with Shinichi I don't have a read on his posts except obnoxious and kpaca-y, thus inherently scummy. But you've been game solvy and present in a way that genuinely looks like the wheels are turning.
So this is all to say that my read on your slot currently sits at a big fat "?". If you were a wagon I'd probably still lynch you, it clears up your slot and sheds some light onto yesterday, but I think there are better ways to figure you out.I'm good to move forward with a Shinichi lynch, the feet dragging despite several people saying "shin could be town, but heck I'll lynch him" gives more credence to a scum!shin world, as lines like that look like a play for town cred while also hoping their buddy manages to escape the lynch. If both wheat-slot and shin are scum (possible but very dodgy prospect with how it's been treated) then today is going to be key for catching out the partner later on.
I have basically no thoughts on the current state of the game and Shin's impending lynch. And possible damage control shut down.
And if Shin flips scum I am much more interested in Proph (who is pretty townie even factoring in the Kpaca section apart from the Kpaca/Shin page 1-5 mess) than Wheat tomorrow. The wheat case largely feels like a you're not playing town like I town so you must be scum case (which I've made a fair number of myself) rather than a what is Wheat's motivation as scum case and how is it advancing a goal. Like I just cannot comprehend any useful utility for scum!wheat to torpedo into Vaimes like that. Scum reading a town read player with conviction isn't going to earn you town reads. EL and QH are right that there needed to be more pushing and questioning applied there, but I don't think it's inheirently scummy. Just not what I consider the optimal line of play for town.
I really like Shadow's posting since his other game ended, but I'll admit I'm biased there because of our night chat. Speaking of shadow I'm going to give a more detailed rundown of our night chat just so it's on the record. Not full details, but what we talked about beyond Shin.
I ask him about the mechanics of initiating the chat, why I was picked, and EoD scum activity given the no lynch. Not divulging his flavor he answered and was curious about my theory on him and Mind being aligned, and why I thought Terry was scum if either of RE and Terry were. He also had some interesting thoughts on the EoD an what the votee's alignments would suggest about scum buddies.
I tell him that my Terry read is based on the Avalon game (which is why I am tinfoiling Terry/Shadow worlds given Terry has not behaved like his scum game in avalon since the start of today) and say my Mind/Shadow being aligned read was based on Mind asking someone to do math, that I must have hallucinated because I can't find it anywhere but my notes, and Shadow not reacting to it. It was a reference to Bare Bones and Trigger Happy, but again I can't find the Mind post that made me think it was a thing that Shadow would react to.
Shadow explains the Rhand read. And his stance on Shin which was really our main discussion. One nugget I'd forgotten was Shadow expressing strong doubt of RE and Shin being s/s based on the EoD. And that's really why I think I'm having trouble staying engaged, I've been focused on Shin being scum since D1 and nothing has changed...
/corroborate the above.
I think we really need Shin's flip to actually move forward the gamestate. Also, might be a good idea for a protective role to target me tonight, since I should be basically lock clear with a scum!shin flip.
Explain why you think that JT is more likely scum with the trap incident? Because that's a big factor as to why I am townreading JT.
Trying to get a widely Town-read player on a minor mechanics slip that almost certainly would have just been due to the mod making a mistake -- and, in fact, was -- feels like trying to sneak a mislynch that otherwise would never have happened. I don't know how prone mods here are to interjecting when there are mechanics questions, and luckily Cantripmancer came in and explained that OoO didn't work that way, but in my experience moderators will stay out of things as much as possible, so that could've been a mislynch for something that was pretty obviously just a mod mistake.
2. I kiind of want to look at shadow more given that he hasn't done much other than tunnel on Shinichi the entire Day.
Shadow was good Day One. I'd honestly expect a Neighborizer to be less open to throwing info around for the Mafia on the second Day, when he can give his theories at Night to the person most consider to be the Towniest. I wouldn't give him a free pass for bad content, but less content makes sense in context.
3. Why does me mentioning that I like to bus more as scum more bug you? I am just telling you guys how I play when I roll scum (ie, I am a terrible scum player, so I bus to cover that fact up).
Presumably, QH is worried because it feels like you came in and bussed Shinichi after kpaca and Shin were allied Day One. But I guess we'll see after Shin flips.
And if Shin flips scum I am much more interested in Proph (who is pretty townie even factoring in the Kpaca section apart from the Kpaca/Shin page 1-5 mess) than Wheat tomorrow. The wheat case largely feels like a you're not playing town like I town so you must be scum case (which I've made a fair number of myself) rather than a what is Wheat's motivation as scum case and how is it advancing a goal. Like I just cannot comprehend any useful utility for scum!wheat to torpedo into Vaimes like that. Scum reading a town read player with conviction isn't going to earn you town reads.
...But it DID. And Wheat himself claimed that "too scummy to be scum" was a valid line of thought, which seemed like exactly the silly philosophy on which he was relying when tunneling Vaimes.
Look, you're Town-reading him for tunneling Vaimes right now. You're saying that tunneling Vaimes wouldn't earn him a Town-read, so you're giving him a Town-read for tunneling Vaimes. The reverse psychology is working on you all too well.
@shadowlancer: So, just to make sure I've got your ability fully understood, since you're asking to be prioritized for Night protection...
1) You choose a person to add to your Neighborhood, as a Day ability. That person is notified at the start of the next Night.
2) At Night, everyone in your Neighborhood can chat, as long as you're alive.
Is that correct? Or do you not need to be alive for other people in your Neighborhood to chat? If you added someone to your Neighborhood toDay, could that person and Grapefruit speak on future Nights even if you died toNight? And/or are there any other things I've misunderstood about your Neighborizing?
@shadowlancer: So, just to make sure I've got your ability fully understood, since you're asking to be prioritized for Night protection...
1) You choose a person to add to your Neighborhood, as a Day ability. That person is notified at the start of the next Night.
2) At Night, everyone in your Neighborhood can chat, as long as you're alive.
Is that correct? Or do you not need to be alive for other people in your Neighborhood to chat? If you added someone to your Neighborhood toDay, could that person and Grapefruit speak on future Nights even if you died toNight? And/or are there any other things I've misunderstood about your Neighborizing?
So the way it works is one on one night chats with whoever I target during the day. I'm flavored as a shrink, last night Grapefruit sat on my couch, tonight will be someone else but not grapefruit.
/corroborate the above.
I think we really need Shin's flip to actually move forward the gamestate. Also, might be a good idea for a protective role to target me tonight, since I should be basically lock clear with a scum!shin flip.
Are you effing joking!? Are you seriously trying to direct a protective role?
/corroborate the above.
I think we really need Shin's flip to actually move forward the gamestate. Also, might be a good idea for a protective role to target me tonight, since I should be basically lock clear with a scum!shin flip.
Are you effing joking!? Are you seriously trying to direct a protective role?
I'm trying to create some WIFOM that just might save my life. It's the protective role's prerogative, but I'm a fan of giving scum every opportunity to screw up.
Explain why you think that JT is more likely scum with the trap incident? Because that's a big factor as to why I am townreading JT.
Trying to get a widely Town-read player on a minor mechanics slip that almost certainly would have just been due to the mod making a mistake -- and, in fact, was -- feels like trying to sneak a mislynch that otherwise would never have happened. I don't know how prone mods here are to interjecting when there are mechanics questions, and luckily Cantripmancer came in and explained that OoO didn't work that way, but in my experience moderators will stay out of things as much as possible, so that could've been a mislynch for something that was pretty obviously just a mod mistake.
I still don't get why this explanation makes me less town. I clearly thought I had caught them in a lie. That's what you should be basing your read on me about. How would I know it was a mod-mistake? This explanation makes no sense and makes me doubt your credibility. I have a whole rant to go on about this after the game.
@shadowlancer: So, just to make sure I've got your ability fully understood, since you're asking to be prioritized for Night protection...
1) You choose a person to add to your Neighborhood, as a Day ability. That person is notified at the start of the next Night.
2) At Night, everyone in your Neighborhood can chat, as long as you're alive.
Is that correct? Or do you not need to be alive for other people in your Neighborhood to chat? If you added someone to your Neighborhood toDay, could that person and Grapefruit speak on future Nights even if you died toNight? And/or are there any other things I've misunderstood about your Neighborizing?
I would also like AG to similarly outline how his role works.
And if Shin flips scum I am much more interested in Proph (who is pretty townie even factoring in the Kpaca section apart from the Kpaca/Shin page 1-5 mess) than Wheat tomorrow. The wheat case largely feels like a you're not playing town like I town so you must be scum case (which I've made a fair number of myself) rather than a what is Wheat's motivation as scum case and how is it advancing a goal. Like I just cannot comprehend any useful utility for scum!wheat to torpedo into Vaimes like that. Scum reading a town read player with conviction isn't going to earn you town reads.
...But it DID. And Wheat himself claimed that "too scummy to be scum" was a valid line of thought, which seemed like exactly the silly philosophy on which he was relying when tunneling Vaimes.
Look, you're Town-reading him for tunneling Vaimes right now. You're saying that tunneling Vaimes wouldn't earn him a Town-read, so you're giving him a Town-read for tunneling Vaimes. The reverse psychology is working on you all too well.
I'm not town reading him. Wheat hasn't been in my town pile at all today. I am pushing back at the gung-ho rush to set that slot as the auto lynch for tomorrow and priotizing another player who is outside my town read pile. There is a large difference between that and town reading wheat. Yes I am questioning the validity of a scum read, but I was also reasserting part of it at the same time (that there needed to be questioning and interaction which there absolutely was not). I am not unwilling to lynch Wheat, just more willing to lynch Proph and probably AGod (though I'll admit I need a reread there).
A'right, since the last couple pages haven't really gone anywhere, I'ma make one last push for people moving from Shinichi to Wheat before Shin gets hammered toDay.
1) which player is more probably scum
Everyone is pretty much in agreement that at least one of the two is scum, right? Obviously, if both are, then the question of who we lynch first is irrelevant, so that scenario doesn't need to be considered when picking between the two for toDay. But if only one is scum then we'd wanna hit the right one first -- again, obviously -- so that the other one has another chance to prove himself to be Town. So consider the options if exactly one of the two is scum.
If Shinichi is scum but Wheat isn't, then Wheat's been vehemently defending scum for the entire game, to the point of explicitly stating that he'd be as willing to self-lynch as to vote Shin. This seems incredibly unlikely (or, if true, makes his reads pretty much useless to us).
If Wheat is scum but Shinichi isn't, then Wheat's been hard-pocketing a Townie for the whole game. This is perfectly consistent with him suddenly flipping and saying "yeah sure we'll lynch him so I can prove to you just how Townie I was being by defending him". Furthermore, multiple people including Shinichi himself have stated that Shinichi is consistently scum-read in all of his games, making him an easy late-game lynch and thus a very useful early-game pocket.
The latter scenario is clearly the more likely one, making Wheat the better lynch for toDay.
2) which lynch tells us more about the other player
As noted in part #1, Wheat being Mafia while Shinichi is Town is just as consistent with Wheat's play as the scenario in which they're both scum. Therefore, there's no Shinichi flip that really rules out Wheat being Mafia.
On the other hand, if Wheat flips Town, Shinichi becomes a lot less suspicious. Unlike Wheat's defense of Shinichi, Shin's defense of Wheat has been minimal and very recent, including while Shinichi himself was the target of the other wagon. That defense of Wheat feels far more genuine than Wheat's defense of Shinichi in the form of an early obsession and a recent switcheroo.
Thus, Wheat's flip can potentially alleviate the pressure on Shinichi, while Shinichi's flip doesn't help us figure out Wheat nearly as much.
Both because a Wheat flip is more informative and because Wheat is the more likely of the two to be Mafia in the event that only one is Mafia, Wheat makes much more sense as toDay's lynch.
1) They're the two people whose wagons are inches from being hammered. There is no time to find another wagon at this point in the Day. Attempting to do so is akin to pushing for another No Lynch, which you agreed is bad.
2) I'm specifically trying not to do that. A Shinichi flip in either direction doesn't tell us much about Wheat, making him the most likely lynch for toMorrow. On the other hand, I just argued that a Wheat Town-flip helps to clear Shinichi, potentially allowing us to look at other candidates toMorrow instead of auto-lynching Shin. That was half my point in the above post: that lynching Shinichi does make tomorrow all about Wheat, whereas a Wheat flip leaves open the possibility of other lynches toMorrow.
Again your complaints have no basis. You just keep throwing shade and leaving yourself exit paths from all your Town-reads.
This is why you're a higher-priority target for me tomorrow than Proph or even AG in the event of a Wheat Town-flip today.
EL, why isn't Shin hammered yet? Wouldn't you expect a townie at L-1 for almost 24 hours to be hammered?
Why would I expect that if the two people I see as his most likely scum-buddies are already effectively voting him? How could they hammer anything? (I say "effectively" cuz Proph said he was voting Shinichi but is temporarily not doing so, ostensibly in order to avoid ending the Day before Shinichi arrives. Though it could also be to avoid showing up on the vote count when people are checking for evidence later. Either way, he can't hammer cuz it'd be pretty obvious if he went back on his word for no good reason.)
Besides, even Townies shouldn't hammer a lynch when someone requests to give the lynchee some time for final words, as Proph did. The fact that you seem to be suggesting someone should do so is highly disconcerting.
Also, regarding my suspicion of you mostly stems from the fact that I feel like you are controlling the game.
'Cept that's not what you said. What you said was simply untrue, as evidenced by my immediately preceding post to which you were responding. And this complaint isn't any better, since I'm pushing for a Wheat lynch and that doesn't appear to be happening. Clearly I'm not in control of anything. The Shinichi lynch that seems to be inevitable right now is absolutely nothing new; Town wanted that on Day One, well before I ever arrived.
I want Quickhoodies to explain exactly how he flip-flopped to Shinichi-scum after he's been defending Shinichi for most of the entire game, AND Shinichi to give his final words rather than a "So if I flip town which will happen what happens next".
If we are lynching Wheat then I am only interested in it from a game health perspective. As a game mod/host, it absolutely sucks to search for replacements. I know Cantrip is trying his hardest to find a replacement right now and judging by the time it's taking him I don't think he's having much luck. I know that if we lynch Wheat then it takes a huge burden out of his shoulders.
So tldr - as a player, I want Shinichi to give his final words and I want him lynched. From an outside perspective/game health/mod thing I would be willing to lynch the Wheat slot, but I absolutely oppose it as a player because I have a strong town read on him.
@EL: Don't twist my words. You know very well that you came in pushing a WG or Shin Lynch and have continued to do so all day. That's what you're getting, so yes I reaffirm that I feel like you came in a began controlling things and are getting exactly what you want. I think you are town and I really hope you are town, but you can NOT fault me for being suspicious.
I can't in any way condone lynching someone for meta reasons, but in your case specifically I guess I'd be okay with you voting Wheat for "game health" or w/e. Since I'm not really Town-reading you, I'm less interested in the reasons for your vote as opposed to where it ends up. Same with Terry, since practically every post he makes drops him further down my reads list.
For anyone else who votes Wheat, though, I'd like it to be for good reasons. Anyone who's on Shinichi at the moment, please give #1370 a skim and consider swapping. (Just wanna make sure it wasn't lost in the Terry shade-wall and "why isn't Shin dead yet" susp-a-f lynch-rushing.)
I can't in any way condone lynching someone for meta reasons, but in your case specifically I guess I'd be okay with you voting Wheat for "game health" or w/e. Since I'm not really Town-reading you, I'm less interested in the reasons for your vote as opposed to where it ends up. Same with Terry, since practically every post he makes drops him further down my reads list.
For anyone else who votes Wheat, though, I'd like it to be for good reasons. Anyone who's on Shinichi at the moment, please give #1370 a skim and consider swapping. (Just wanna make sure it wasn't lost in the Terry shade-wall and "why isn't Shin dead yet" susp-a-f lynch-rushing.)
EL, I'm still bitter about the Day 1 No-Lynch. No way I'm letting that happen again and I feel like I'm personally in a good position to push this point. Deadline is tomorrow morning. We can NOT No-Lynch again. I'm not dragging this day out anymore, we NEED flips.
@EL: Don't twist my words. You know very well that you came in pushing a WG or Shin Lynch and have continued to do so all day. That's what you're getting, so yes I reaffirm that I feel like you came in a began controlling things and are getting exactly what you want. I think you are town and I really hope you are town, but you can NOT fault me for being suspicious.
Sorry for...being convincing? Making good points? I wasn't aware these were scum-tells in your meta.
But no, Shinichi was gonna be lynched yesterDay, so it really doesn't mean anything that I put him back on people's radars; Town did the rest of the work building up that wagon without me. Only Wheat's wagon can be considered to be mostly my doing, because him turning on AG suddenly made everyone see it as impossible for him to be scum for some wild reason, and I didn't wanna let Town fall into that trap.
Honestly, right now I'm becoming rather disappointed in a Shinichi lynch over a Wheat one, so no, I'm really not getting what I want out of this. The way each of them reacted to becoming the two primary wagons of the Day has massively spiked my Wheat-as-scum reads while actually somewhat dampening my Shinichi-as-scum reads, especially when considering Proph's reactions as well.
EL, I'm still bitter about the Day 1 No-Lynch. No way I'm letting that happen again and I feel like I'm personally in a good position to push this point. Deadline is tomorrow morning. We can NOT No-Lynch again. I'm not dragging this day out anymore, we NEED flips.
...You're saying this in response to me pushing a wagon that is ONLY TWO VOTES FROM A LYNCH. Yet JUST EARLIER:
I hate how you are making this game all about two players. It seems uber suspicious.
So you'd rather that we put attention on people who DON'T EVEN HAVE WAGONS than on someone who's close to being hammered, even though we're only hours from deadline.
Can you walk me through the part where there's likely to be one mafia between them, but Wheat flipping town suggests Shinichi is town? What exactly is your plan if Wheat flips town?
There are a few reasons, but the main one I outlined is that Shinichi hasn't been tunnel-defending Wheat all game (unlike the reverse). Instead, he was pretty indifferent to Wheat until the two of them started getting wagons almost simultaneously today. His defense of Wheat has mostly been a recent development.
If they're both scum, obviously it'd make sense for them to defend each other in that situation. But if Shinichi is Mafia while Wheat is Town, Shin suddenly defending his counter-wagon's target isn't a good play at all. He'd want to promote the counter-wagon to save himself, or at least not fight against Wheat's lynch. That play seems like it can only come from Town unless they're both scum, which means that Wheat flipping Town would give Shin a lot of Town points in my books.
If Wheat flips Town, I'd take a hard look at Terry (who seems to have spent the last few pages trying to convince me and RE that he's scum) and AG.
I'm getting this bad feeling that EL is scum and he just came in blasted Wheat and Shin until one of them got lynched, full well knowing both were town. It seems like he's been in a pretty hard tunnel on them.
The main target at the time I arrived was Atheist_God. If I were scum marching in to get a mislynch, I'd've just jumped on him instead of reminding the Town of the person they tried and failed to lynch Day One as well as the two people seemingly buddied with them (Proph and Wheat; don't forget Proph's in my top scum team too).
Your theory might work if I were protecting Atheist_God, but you don't believe that since you said you're Town-reading him.
I've also explicitly stated that if either Wheat or Shinichi flips Town I'll be significantly less likely to lynch the other, so again that seems far-fetched.
But I've admitted that I'm reading AG based on Cantrip's nerf of my trap. I think AG's ability is worded like a scum ability. As claimed, it is very close to the scum ability your replacee Mindreaver had in my last game. So I'm not certain you didn't just come in and rescue AG.
As biased as the read seems its also a pretty fair read, im positive someone who has claimed so far is either lieing about their ability or they're all truthful its just one is attached to a scum.
But you're basing them both being scum off their interactions, so if one flips town does it void your whole theory? If one is flips town are you just going to keep tunneling and saying that the other must be scum that was pocketing?
Dude, I've said tons of times that if either one flips Town I will be a lot more likely to Town-read the other. Stop claiming I'm tunneling without reading my posts.
There is way too much of this "Shin or wheat being scum locks the other one as scum," business going on, and it's kinda freaking me out.
On its own it wouldn't; I'm just saying that I'm scum-reading both so one flipping scum would be the nail in the other's coffin.
I honestly don't think that's fair even with our interactions because for one I am town so basically if he's scum im condemned to death. Though this is particularly due to the fault of how I have been playing I guess.
Tunneling is a strong word sure it held more ground when you first replaced in, but now its pretty evident that you're still looking at ever angle.
vote: Shinichi
I really feel this is for the best...
Why?
The chances of Shinichi and WG being scum are pretty high, but Shinichi is scummier. It'd be one thing if we knew for sure that WG and Shinichi were scum, but since we don't, I'd rather go for Shinichi.
So you were willing to Lynch Shin, but not hammer him? Because your reaction to the incorrect vote-count was "What a relief"
I've made up my mind.
I will be voting Shin by the time I leave work today (approximately 3 hours form now), putting him at L-1. I'm sure someone will hammer him and we can end this day. Get what you want said, said now.
My primary 'hm' was pondering the world where scum!you wants to lynch town!Wheat and clear your partner Shinichi. But your explanation makes sense.
Scum!Terry would be iffy/unfortunate because he's been like, angling to the extreme. I think he's used the world "angleshoot" in approximately 1/4 of all of his posts, and they're all in relation to himself.
I kind of buy Proph's panic/paranoia. I...can't recall if he's the type to play it up as scum, or to constantly apologize for being lazy and keep on with the fake gamesolving and wallposts. tl;dr still townread him.
And yeah, my read on the kpaca slot is now more on the negative-neutral than on the positive-neutral side, because of Proph's play.
Obviously not convinced at all about Proph though (relative to what I think of Wheat and Shinichi), because I'm still conflicted concerning what I talked about in my previous post: "With all the defense I've seen these three players do towards each other, I don't feel like Proph would just do what she's doing right now. On one hand this seems like the exact type of situation I know she would bus in, on the other hand she mentioned in-thread that she very much likes to bus as scum (or something like that) and it's the fact that she mentioned it which bugs me."
What?
1. How does my play this phase trend your read on my slot towards the negative-neutral rather than the positive-neutral vibe? If kpaca was still here and shiptoasting would you still have a more positive view of him?
2. Why are you making post-flip reads when not a single member of the scumteam has flipped yet?
3. Why does me mentioning that I like to bus more as scum more bug you? I am just telling you guys how I play when I roll scum (ie, I am a terrible scum player, so I bus to cover that fact up).
1.There are a few posts this phase that have me feeling the same way about you too
3.I feel like scum would talk more aobut how they play scum to make others look away from the night kills and VCA.
Sorry for spamposting guys, it's just that I have a fair amount to catch-up on and a lot to say about this game so I'm splitting it into multiple posts for readability.
Shinichi, if you're town, can you give any last thoughts? Who do you think is town? Who do you think is scum?
Im very conflicted on my town reads right now, especially since alot of people won't make the hammer even though they are so certain of my alignment. Cross I know you say you are a terrible scum, but something is honestly striking me as Odd lately. Guess doesn't change much due to the certainty of my death.
Does anyone know the current players voting me right now can't find the msot recent vount count
So I see what EL is saying. WG definitely is declaring Shin the apex of towniness, which could easily be because they are scum buddies or (as I think EL is proposing) that WG could be attempting to pocket Shin and buying credit when Shin gets inevitably lynched. The vote on Shin to prove EL wrong seems to imply that it is more likely the later of the two options.
The only way I can see WG's actions (the course that lead to rage quitting) come from scum is if EL is scum too. I really am starting to think we may have two townies up for a Lynch.
If we Lynch WG and he flips scum, I think it would imply that Vaimes & AG = town, as I am currently suspecting they are. I don't think if WG flips scum it necessarily means Shin = Scum, because I really think the vote to prove EL wrong would be more likely from Scum-WG White Knighting Town-Shin. A Scum-WG may also implicate a Scum-Proph because his defense of Kpaca and town-read of Proph was more subtle then what he was doing with Shin.
If we Lynch WG and he flips town, I think it would make me want to take another look at my AG & Vaimes theory, which may or may not include the EL conspiracy.
Then my reads are absolutely terrible this game, and I will re-evaluate to the best of my ability. I will look at who ends up replacing Wheat, as well as look at who tried to get on your wagon without attempting to engage with you and try to genuinely figure out your alignment.
The thing is, if you're town then you need to SHOW me. Your reads have been completely all over the place and you are voting.. me, when it's abundantly clear that I am town this game. Your posts don't feel like you are trying to figure out the bad guys.
Quote from Shinchi »
There is a few quotes that brought that idea up, I just havent had the time to go find them. I didn't just pull that out of my ass. Explain the the hatch, i mean I understand it but am i now allowed to back down from my reads?
Tell me what quotes they are.
Escape Hatch: When you state a townread but give yourself an opening to change that read in the future (in your post, it'd be the "but ive been wrong about him before" sentiment). It's scummy because you never lock yourself into declaring a townread - you're giving yourself an out to scumread that player late in the game.
Quote from Shinichi »
I was implying i can see where the read was coming from, but at the same time I still think he has a high chance of being scum. I'm sorry my play isnt consistent. But i'm just playing veyr *****ty right now because I am just not usd to keeping track of posts from 30 days ago even with this iso feature,
WHY do you think shadow has a high chance of being scum, though?
I find it very hard to make accurate town reads, due to the fact I see more methods of approach as scummy. I can form scum reads pretty easy at times but I find it hard to get solid town reads, seeing as how people change their minds quite often.
I know what an escape hatch it lmao, I just felt like what I was doing isn't for that reason. I am just very uncertain of that read but you are allowed to play it as however you want. Most if not all my actions tend to be scummy, so if you think i created an escape hatch cause i am scum then hammer me right now.
Sorry for spamposting guys, it's just that I have a fair amount to catch-up on and a lot to say about this game so I'm splitting it into multiple posts for readability.
Shinichi, if you're town, can you give any last thoughts? Who do you think is town? Who do you think is scum?
Im very conflicted on my town reads right now, especially since alot of people won't make the hammer even though they are so certain of my alignment. Cross I know you say you are a terrible scum, but something is honestly striking me as Odd lately. Guess doesn't change much due to the certainty of my death.
Does anyone know the current players voting me right now can't find the msot recent vount count
A'right, since the last couple pages haven't really gone anywhere, I'ma make one last push for people moving from Shinichi to Wheat before Shin gets hammered toDay.
1) which player is more probably scum
Everyone is pretty much in agreement that at least one of the two is scum, right? Obviously, if both are, then the question of who we lynch first is irrelevant, so that scenario doesn't need to be considered when picking between the two for toDay. But if only one is scum then we'd wanna hit the right one first -- again, obviously -- so that the other one has another chance to prove himself to be Town. So consider the options if exactly one of the two is scum.
If Shinichi is scum but Wheat isn't, then Wheat's been vehemently defending scum for the entire game, to the point of explicitly stating that he'd be as willing to self-lynch as to vote Shin. This seems incredibly unlikely (or, if true, makes his reads pretty much useless to us).
[quote]If Wheat is scum but Shinichi isn't, then Wheat's been hard-pocketing a Townie for the whole game. This is perfectly consistent with him suddenly flipping and saying "yeah sure we'll lynch him so I can prove to you just how Townie I was being by defending him". Furthermore, multiple people including Shinichi himself have stated that Shinichi is consistently scum-read in all of his games, making him an easy late-game lynch and thus a very useful early-game pocket.
The latter scenario is clearly the more likely one, making Wheat the better lynch for toDay.
I mostly agree with this, but the analysis of Shin is all about the relationship with Wheat. I get that Wheat has been more concrete than Shin so it's easier to make a x so y case, but Shin's floatiness is part of the problem. He is being allowed to coast through this game, not taking any stances. And I'll say it again: appears to be in anti-spew mode right now.
2) which lynch tells us more about the other player
As noted in part #1, Wheat being Mafia while Shinichi is Town is just as consistent with Wheat's play as the scenario in which they're both scum. Therefore, there's no Shinichi flip that really rules out Wheat being Mafia.
On the other hand, if Wheat flips Town, Shinichi becomes a lot less suspicious. Unlike Wheat's defense of Shinichi, Shin's defense of Wheat has been minimal and very recent, including while Shinichi himself was the target of the other wagon. That defense of Wheat feels far more genuine than Wheat's defense of Shinichi in the form of an early obsession and a recent switcheroo.
I cannot disagree with this enough. You keep evalutating Shin through the prism of Wheat and nothing else. Your premise above that outlined these screnario's as possibilties was based on the idea of there being scum between the two of them which you throw away to now. I just don't get it. At all. The premise you built was based on at least 1 of them being scum. You explicitly state that. And you craft a logical scenario working under that assumption about Wheat's relation to Shin which is easy to follow and persuasive. You then throw that away when stating what we'd learn from the flips based on the scenario you built. I just don't get it. Also in no way does Shin's defense read as genuine, just anti-opportunistic. Which has kind of been his thing all game.
Thus, Wheat's flip can potentially alleviate the pressure on Shinichi, while Shinichi's flip doesn't help us figure out Wheat nearly as much.
Both because a Wheat flip is more informative and because Wheat is the more likely of the two to be Mafia in the event that only one is Mafia, Wheat makes much more sense as toDay's lynch.
And again talking about one town flip alleviating pressure while the other doing nothing when your scenario's were built on the assumption one of them was mafia.
My primary 'hm' was pondering the world where scum!you wants to lynch town!Wheat and clear your partner Shinichi. But your explanation makes sense.
I mean, until recently I was pushing Shinichi along with Wheat, so that'd be a hell of a play for me: drag Shinichi right up to the chopping block and then suddenly try to yank him to safety? I promise you that I don't have nearly that level of confidence in my persuasive capabilities.
Scum!Terry would be iffy/unfortunate because he's been like, angling to the extreme. I think he's used the world "angleshoot" in approximately 1/4 of all of his posts, and they're all in relation to himself.
From what I understand of the term "angleshooting", that "trap" thing -- trying to get you on a rules technicality that was pretty clearly just a mod mistake rather than a lie from you -- would also qualify. So I have no idea why people were Town-reading him for that.
I kind of buy Proph's panic/paranoia. I...can't recall if he's the type to play it up as scum, or to constantly apologize for being lazy and keep on with the fake gamesolving and wallposts. tl;dr still townread him.
Proph's at the top of my *****-list if Wheat flips Mafia, but when he's considered independently then I null-read or maybe even sliiiightly Town-read him, yeah. Yet another reason I'd like a Wheat flip.
Tunneling is a strong word sure it held more ground when you first replaced in, but now its pretty evident that you're still looking at ever angle.
People don't generally give Town-tells and Mafia-tells at random times, unprompted. Town usually only gets useful information when people are put under pressure, which is why wagons exist. I was pushing wagons onto you and Wheat hard from the moment I joined because you were my top scum-reads and wagons are how I can verify said reads; as a result, I'm now far more convinced about Wheat and a lot less certain about you, because you held up fairly well under pressure while he totally collapsed by promptly voting his prior Town-read to push his counter-wagon.
I don't actually get locked into tunnels; I just act like it for long enough to evoke reactions that I can use to read people.
Also Quick I am male.
What?
1. How does my play this phase trend your read on my slot towards the negative-neutral rather than the positive-neutral vibe? If kpaca was still here and shiptoasting would you still have a more positive view of him?
2. Why are you making post-flip reads when not a single member of the scumteam has flipped yet?
3. Why does me mentioning that I like to bus more as scum more bug you? I am just telling you guys how I play when I roll scum (ie, I am a terrible scum player, so I bus to cover that fact up).
Shinichi (5): shadowlancerx, Prophylaxis, Grapefruit21, Wheat_Grinder, RE1031
Wheat_Grinder (4): Quickhoodies, AtheistGod, EternalLurker, Vaimes
1. What if Wheat is scum and is pocketing me + my reads this game have gone to heck?
2. I kiind of want to look at shadow more given that he hasn't done much other than tunnel on Shinichi the entire Day. Ditto with Grapefruit as well I guess? I still think both are likely town but a Shinichi townflip would make me look at those two more.
3. AtheistGod deserves a reread as well given that his behavior isn't really that great.
3. In the nightmare scenario where Shinichi and Wheat are BOTH town, I want to look at QH.
------
In the event where Shinichi flips scum then I think Wheat is incredibly likely to be even more town. I would definitely destroy AtheistGod and QH then for pushing the counterwagon. Plus shadow would essentially be lock town.
So yeah, this is where I am at as of right now. I still think Shinichi is scum but I am.. afraid of him flipping town, if that is the correct word for it. I've been thinking about this game and basically been wondering "What if Shinichi flips town" and getting worried, because it would mean that I'd need to re-evaluate somewhere.
As opposed to the best case scenario where I am correct in my reads and get to dunk my PoE and watch them all flip scum.
Shinichi, if you're town, can you give any last thoughts? Who do you think is town? Who do you think is scum?
So this is all to say that my read on your slot currently sits at a big fat "?". If you were a wagon I'd probably still lynch you, it clears up your slot and sheds some light onto yesterday, but I think there are better ways to figure you out.
I'm good to move forward with a Shinichi lynch, the feet dragging despite several people saying "shin could be town, but heck I'll lynch him" gives more credence to a scum!shin world, as lines like that look like a play for town cred while also hoping their buddy manages to escape the lynch. If both wheat-slot and shin are scum (possible but very dodgy prospect with how it's been treated) then today is going to be key for catching out the partner later on.
And if Shin flips scum I am much more interested in Proph (who is pretty townie even factoring in the Kpaca section apart from the Kpaca/Shin page 1-5 mess) than Wheat tomorrow. The wheat case largely feels like a you're not playing town like I town so you must be scum case (which I've made a fair number of myself) rather than a what is Wheat's motivation as scum case and how is it advancing a goal. Like I just cannot comprehend any useful utility for scum!wheat to torpedo into Vaimes like that. Scum reading a town read player with conviction isn't going to earn you town reads. EL and QH are right that there needed to be more pushing and questioning applied there, but I don't think it's inheirently scummy. Just not what I consider the optimal line of play for town.
I really like Shadow's posting since his other game ended, but I'll admit I'm biased there because of our night chat. Speaking of shadow I'm going to give a more detailed rundown of our night chat just so it's on the record. Not full details, but what we talked about beyond Shin.
I ask him about the mechanics of initiating the chat, why I was picked, and EoD scum activity given the no lynch. Not divulging his flavor he answered and was curious about my theory on him and Mind being aligned, and why I thought Terry was scum if either of RE and Terry were. He also had some interesting thoughts on the EoD an what the votee's alignments would suggest about scum buddies.
I tell him that my Terry read is based on the Avalon game (which is why I am tinfoiling Terry/Shadow worlds given Terry has not behaved like his scum game in avalon since the start of today) and say my Mind/Shadow being aligned read was based on Mind asking someone to do math, that I must have hallucinated because I can't find it anywhere but my notes, and Shadow not reacting to it. It was a reference to Bare Bones and Trigger Happy, but again I can't find the Mind post that made me think it was a thing that Shadow would react to.
Shadow explains the Rhand read. And his stance on Shin which was really our main discussion. One nugget I'd forgotten was Shadow expressing strong doubt of RE and Shin being s/s based on the EoD. And that's really why I think I'm having trouble staying engaged, I've been focused on Shin being scum since D1 and nothing has changed...
I think we really need Shin's flip to actually move forward the gamestate. Also, might be a good idea for a protective role to target me tonight, since I should be basically lock clear with a scum!shin flip.
Trying to get a widely Town-read player on a minor mechanics slip that almost certainly would have just been due to the mod making a mistake -- and, in fact, was -- feels like trying to sneak a mislynch that otherwise would never have happened. I don't know how prone mods here are to interjecting when there are mechanics questions, and luckily Cantripmancer came in and explained that OoO didn't work that way, but in my experience moderators will stay out of things as much as possible, so that could've been a mislynch for something that was pretty obviously just a mod mistake.
This is one of the reasons I'd much prefer a Wheat lynch to a Shinichi lynch today, though I'd accept either.
Shadow was good Day One. I'd honestly expect a Neighborizer to be less open to throwing info around for the Mafia on the second Day, when he can give his theories at Night to the person most consider to be the Towniest. I wouldn't give him a free pass for bad content, but less content makes sense in context.
And AG, agreed.
the ****
Presumably, QH is worried because it feels like you came in and bussed Shinichi after kpaca and Shin were allied Day One. But I guess we'll see after Shin flips.
...But it DID. And Wheat himself claimed that "too scummy to be scum" was a valid line of thought, which seemed like exactly the silly philosophy on which he was relying when tunneling Vaimes.
Look, you're Town-reading him for tunneling Vaimes right now. You're saying that tunneling Vaimes wouldn't earn him a Town-read, so you're giving him a Town-read for tunneling Vaimes. The reverse psychology is working on you all too well.
1) You choose a person to add to your Neighborhood, as a Day ability. That person is notified at the start of the next Night.
2) At Night, everyone in your Neighborhood can chat, as long as you're alive.
Is that correct? Or do you not need to be alive for other people in your Neighborhood to chat? If you added someone to your Neighborhood toDay, could that person and Grapefruit speak on future Nights even if you died toNight? And/or are there any other things I've misunderstood about your Neighborizing?
YO AG! Stop lurking!
I'm not town reading him. Wheat hasn't been in my town pile at all today. I am pushing back at the gung-ho rush to set that slot as the auto lynch for tomorrow and priotizing another player who is outside my town read pile. There is a large difference between that and town reading wheat. Yes I am questioning the validity of a scum read, but I was also reasserting part of it at the same time (that there needed to be questioning and interaction which there absolutely was not). I am not unwilling to lynch Wheat, just more willing to lynch Proph and probably AGod (though I'll admit I need a reread there).
1) which player is more probably scum
Everyone is pretty much in agreement that at least one of the two is scum, right? Obviously, if both are, then the question of who we lynch first is irrelevant, so that scenario doesn't need to be considered when picking between the two for toDay. But if only one is scum then we'd wanna hit the right one first -- again, obviously -- so that the other one has another chance to prove himself to be Town. So consider the options if exactly one of the two is scum.
If Shinichi is scum but Wheat isn't, then Wheat's been vehemently defending scum for the entire game, to the point of explicitly stating that he'd be as willing to self-lynch as to vote Shin. This seems incredibly unlikely (or, if true, makes his reads pretty much useless to us).
If Wheat is scum but Shinichi isn't, then Wheat's been hard-pocketing a Townie for the whole game. This is perfectly consistent with him suddenly flipping and saying "yeah sure we'll lynch him so I can prove to you just how Townie I was being by defending him". Furthermore, multiple people including Shinichi himself have stated that Shinichi is consistently scum-read in all of his games, making him an easy late-game lynch and thus a very useful early-game pocket.
The latter scenario is clearly the more likely one, making Wheat the better lynch for toDay.
2) which lynch tells us more about the other player
As noted in part #1, Wheat being Mafia while Shinichi is Town is just as consistent with Wheat's play as the scenario in which they're both scum. Therefore, there's no Shinichi flip that really rules out Wheat being Mafia.
On the other hand, if Wheat flips Town, Shinichi becomes a lot less suspicious. Unlike Wheat's defense of Shinichi, Shin's defense of Wheat has been minimal and very recent, including while Shinichi himself was the target of the other wagon. That defense of Wheat feels far more genuine than Wheat's defense of Shinichi in the form of an early obsession and a recent switcheroo.
Thus, Wheat's flip can potentially alleviate the pressure on Shinichi, while Shinichi's flip doesn't help us figure out Wheat nearly as much.
Both because a Wheat flip is more informative and because Wheat is the more likely of the two to be Mafia in the event that only one is Mafia, Wheat makes much more sense as toDay's lynch.
1) They're the two people whose wagons are inches from being hammered. There is no time to find another wagon at this point in the Day. Attempting to do so is akin to pushing for another No Lynch, which you agreed is bad.
2) I'm specifically trying not to do that. A Shinichi flip in either direction doesn't tell us much about Wheat, making him the most likely lynch for toMorrow. On the other hand, I just argued that a Wheat Town-flip helps to clear Shinichi, potentially allowing us to look at other candidates toMorrow instead of auto-lynching Shin. That was half my point in the above post: that lynching Shinichi does make tomorrow all about Wheat, whereas a Wheat flip leaves open the possibility of other lynches toMorrow.
Again your complaints have no basis. You just keep throwing shade and leaving yourself exit paths from all your Town-reads.
This is why you're a higher-priority target for me tomorrow than Proph or even AG in the event of a Wheat Town-flip today.
Besides, even Townies shouldn't hammer a lynch when someone requests to give the lynchee some time for final words, as Proph did. The fact that you seem to be suggesting someone should do so is highly disconcerting.
'Cept that's not what you said. What you said was simply untrue, as evidenced by my immediately preceding post to which you were responding. And this complaint isn't any better, since I'm pushing for a Wheat lynch and that doesn't appear to be happening. Clearly I'm not in control of anything. The Shinichi lynch that seems to be inevitable right now is absolutely nothing new; Town wanted that on Day One, well before I ever arrived.
If we are lynching Wheat then I am only interested in it from a game health perspective. As a game mod/host, it absolutely sucks to search for replacements. I know Cantrip is trying his hardest to find a replacement right now and judging by the time it's taking him I don't think he's having much luck. I know that if we lynch Wheat then it takes a huge burden out of his shoulders.
So tldr - as a player, I want Shinichi to give his final words and I want him lynched. From an outside perspective/game health/mod thing I would be willing to lynch the Wheat slot, but I absolutely oppose it as a player because I have a strong town read on him.
For anyone else who votes Wheat, though, I'd like it to be for good reasons. Anyone who's on Shinichi at the moment, please give #1370 a skim and consider swapping. (Just wanna make sure it wasn't lost in the Terry shade-wall and "why isn't Shin dead yet" susp-a-f lynch-rushing.)
But no, Shinichi was gonna be lynched yesterDay, so it really doesn't mean anything that I put him back on people's radars; Town did the rest of the work building up that wagon without me. Only Wheat's wagon can be considered to be mostly my doing, because him turning on AG suddenly made everyone see it as impossible for him to be scum for some wild reason, and I didn't wanna let Town fall into that trap.
Honestly, right now I'm becoming rather disappointed in a Shinichi lynch over a Wheat one, so no, I'm really not getting what I want out of this. The way each of them reacted to becoming the two primary wagons of the Day has massively spiked my Wheat-as-scum reads while actually somewhat dampening my Shinichi-as-scum reads, especially when considering Proph's reactions as well.
So you'd rather that we put attention on people who DON'T EVEN HAVE WAGONS than on someone who's close to being hammered, even though we're only hours from deadline.
How logical.
There are a few reasons, but the main one I outlined is that Shinichi hasn't been tunnel-defending Wheat all game (unlike the reverse). Instead, he was pretty indifferent to Wheat until the two of them started getting wagons almost simultaneously today. His defense of Wheat has mostly been a recent development.
If they're both scum, obviously it'd make sense for them to defend each other in that situation. But if Shinichi is Mafia while Wheat is Town, Shin suddenly defending his counter-wagon's target isn't a good play at all. He'd want to promote the counter-wagon to save himself, or at least not fight against Wheat's lynch. That play seems like it can only come from Town unless they're both scum, which means that Wheat flipping Town would give Shin a lot of Town points in my books.
If Wheat flips Town, I'd take a hard look at Terry (who seems to have spent the last few pages trying to convince me and RE that he's scum) and AG.
DAY 1
A definite, "no way Shin can be scum" vibe early on Day 1
Laser focus on Vaimes from early on Day 1
He is also anti-RE Day 1, which seemed to be in response to RE-Suspicion of Wheat and my attack on Wheat
He says Minreaver can't be scum either.
He doesn't like the idea of lynching Rhand (Town), Kpaca, or Shin
Would be OK lynching AG
Concedes he would move his vote the Rhand or Kpaca, but no Shin
Votes Shadow
Says he won't vote Rhand anymore
Will Vote AG, Vaimes, RE or Shadow
Says Kpaca can't be scum with "that terrible wagon"
DAY 2
Still pushing Vaimes early Day 2
Likes Prop r.Kpaca
Wants to Lynch AG
Thinks RE & Vaimes have buddied
AG becomes #1 target
Wheat gets defensive against EL particularly more than others
Swears by Shin not being scum
Votes Shin to prove El wrong.
Threatens to self Vote
Rage Quit
As biased as the read seems its also a pretty fair read, im positive someone who has claimed so far is either lieing about their ability or they're all truthful its just one is attached to a scum.
I know oh too well, doesnt change the fact that some can be very telling.
Scum cop is common or no? Also, it could have just been a lucky gamble that worked.
I honestly don't think that's fair even with our interactions because for one I am town so basically if he's scum im condemned to death. Though this is particularly due to the fault of how I have been playing I guess.
Tunneling is a strong word sure it held more ground when you first replaced in, but now its pretty evident that you're still looking at ever angle.
The Hammerer will just come under fire thenlol
Scum!Terry would be iffy/unfortunate because he's been like, angling to the extreme. I think he's used the world "angleshoot" in approximately 1/4 of all of his posts, and they're all in relation to himself.
I kind of buy Proph's panic/paranoia. I...can't recall if he's the type to play it up as scum, or to constantly apologize for being lazy and keep on with the fake gamesolving and wallposts. tl;dr still townread him.
1.There are a few posts this phase that have me feeling the same way about you too
3.I feel like scum would talk more aobut how they play scum to make others look away from the night kills and VCA.
Im very conflicted on my town reads right now, especially since alot of people won't make the hammer even though they are so certain of my alignment. Cross I know you say you are a terrible scum, but something is honestly striking me as Odd lately. Guess doesn't change much due to the certainty of my death.
Does anyone know the current players voting me right now can't find the msot recent vount count
The only way I can see WG's actions (the course that lead to rage quitting) come from scum is if EL is scum too. I really am starting to think we may have two townies up for a Lynch.
If we Lynch WG and he flips scum, I think it would imply that Vaimes & AG = town, as I am currently suspecting they are. I don't think if WG flips scum it necessarily means Shin = Scum, because I really think the vote to prove EL wrong would be more likely from Scum-WG White Knighting Town-Shin. A Scum-WG may also implicate a Scum-Proph because his defense of Kpaca and town-read of Proph was more subtle then what he was doing with Shin.
If we Lynch WG and he flips town, I think it would make me want to take another look at my AG & Vaimes theory, which may or may not include the EL conspiracy.
I find it very hard to make accurate town reads, due to the fact I see more methods of approach as scummy. I can form scum reads pretty easy at times but I find it hard to get solid town reads, seeing as how people change their minds quite often.
I know what an escape hatch it lmao, I just felt like what I was doing isn't for that reason. I am just very uncertain of that read but you are allowed to play it as however you want. Most if not all my actions tend to be scummy, so if you think i created an escape hatch cause i am scum then hammer me right now.
What did u think I would do with my chance?
UNVOTE
I mostly agree with this, but the analysis of Shin is all about the relationship with Wheat. I get that Wheat has been more concrete than Shin so it's easier to make a x so y case, but Shin's floatiness is part of the problem. He is being allowed to coast through this game, not taking any stances. And I'll say it again: appears to be in anti-spew mode right now.
I cannot disagree with this enough. You keep evalutating Shin through the prism of Wheat and nothing else. Your premise above that outlined these screnario's as possibilties was based on the idea of there being scum between the two of them which you throw away to now. I just don't get it. At all. The premise you built was based on at least 1 of them being scum. You explicitly state that. And you craft a logical scenario working under that assumption about Wheat's relation to Shin which is easy to follow and persuasive. You then throw that away when stating what we'd learn from the flips based on the scenario you built. I just don't get it. Also in no way does Shin's defense read as genuine, just anti-opportunistic. Which has kind of been his thing all game.
And again talking about one town flip alleviating pressure while the other doing nothing when your scenario's were built on the assumption one of them was mafia.
From what I understand of the term "angleshooting", that "trap" thing -- trying to get you on a rules technicality that was pretty clearly just a mod mistake rather than a lie from you -- would also qualify. So I have no idea why people were Town-reading him for that.
Proph's at the top of my *****-list if Wheat flips Mafia, but when he's considered independently then I null-read or maybe even sliiiightly Town-read him, yeah. Yet another reason I'd like a Wheat flip.
People don't generally give Town-tells and Mafia-tells at random times, unprompted. Town usually only gets useful information when people are put under pressure, which is why wagons exist. I was pushing wagons onto you and Wheat hard from the moment I joined because you were my top scum-reads and wagons are how I can verify said reads; as a result, I'm now far more convinced about Wheat and a lot less certain about you, because you held up fairly well under pressure while he totally collapsed by promptly voting his prior Town-read to push his counter-wagon.
I don't actually get locked into tunnels; I just act like it for long enough to evoke reactions that I can use to read people.
Scum role and vanilla cops are very common roles. Scum alignment cop is not.