@Eternal Lurker
1: I agree with your implied stance. The out of nowhere claim is very strange. And He's been scummy all game.
2: I'm unfamiliar with Wheat. The pressure garnered town reads from people which led me to believe Wheat was playing to meta. I've asked numerous times after wheat's meta and if this is normal before and after the flip to scum reads coming in D2 and I don't know what to make of it.
3: I feel night kill analysis is almost entirely worthless and just leads to wine. But you also didn't really ask a question to anyone but Vaimes so I'm just talking about the topic.
Explain how it was out of nowhere lol.
So you thought i was town because my meta is the same but u dont even know his meta yet you think hes town anyways.
How so im pretty sure you can connect some dots between the final vote count and the night kill.
A'right, all caught up. Reminder: I'm Mindreaver's replacement. Nice to meetchyall.
There are some things I need explained, if you don't mind.
1) For everyone: Why would anyone ever Town-read Shinichi based off of his role as Crier? As Mafia, you can use that ability to seed distrust among Townies. As Town, the ability is only useful for the purpose of sharing reads anonymously, so that if you're right about your reads Mafia can't just shut you up by killing you. But Shinichi revealed his role right away, thus negating absolutely any benefit from the role. As Town, the role does literally nothing at all when your anonymity is lost, and he voluntarily gave up that anonymity almost instantly. I cannot possibly Town-read this and am very confused as to how others are doing so.
2) For everyone who's not Wheat_Grinder: Can someone explain to me how Wheat spends nearly twenty pages fake-tunneling onto Vaimes with absolutely no evidence, making ***** up left and right to support his nonexistent points, and yet people somehow interpret this baseless overconfidence as a Townie thing to do instead of the incredibly scummy play it is? I would've lynched him by, like, his second post, and that hasn't changed at all throughout the rest of the game since then. So far, almost all of the defenses of WG have been "He's playing like such obvious scum that he can't be scum", but this is a horrible assumption to make. Occam's Razor, people. If all I have to do to be successful scum and fool all of you is to play like scum....
3) For everyone but mostly Vaimes: Vaimes, you said that the reason Rhand was targeted by the night-kill should be "super obvious" to anyone who's Town. Care to share this reason? I have my own theories as to why Rhand was targeted, but none of them seem "super obvious", given that they've clearly been ignored by everyone thus far. Everyone else, if you have your own theories, please chime in as well. It's odd to me that this was not the initial topic of discussion for the new day.
Someone care to explain how was it out of knowwhere lol, throughout the last half of day 1 i was being voted. Plus early day 2 it was obvious i become a target for votes so if anything thats the best time to claim.
I have a few ideas of who could have done it but i need to look at the last vote count before the day ended to recheck something.
I dont think anyone should make that assumption because if thats why others see WG as town then i should be getting that same exact treatment
Actually if AG hasnt hasnt explained his ability what was the point of his claim? Seems more like a half ass claim coming from scum
...He.......he's the one...who gave Vaimes..............
...is this constant spam of half a dozen straight posts without reading the thread supposed to be an attempt at a derp-clear or something?
I am reading i just obviously past the post somewhere, but thanks for the snarky reply lol.
Seems Like AG could be scum, cause i don't see why as town he would risk giving an ability to someone that may be mafia. To those who think the vanilla cop check was worthless true it was cause it didnt help much seeing as how the person died, the ability itself still seems pretty powerful.
Someone care to explain how was it out of knowwhere lol, throughout the last half of day 1 i was being voted. Plus early day 2 it was obvious i become a target for votes so if anything thats the best time to claim.
You revealed your role on the very first page by making an announcement that said absolutely nothing of use, without disguising your typing style. Your role serves literally no purpose whatsoever once you've lost your anonymity, making you just a Vanilla, and yet you decided on post frickin' 43 that you'd throw away any usefulness your role had for helping Town. Then you made the absurd claim in your very next announcement that "This role would be too strong for scum." No, it wouldn't; there's no reason for the Town to listen to what the Crier's saying if they disagree.
So you instantly removed any ability your role had to help Town, instead deciding to use the role solely as a chance to claim that you weren't scum.
Wanna tell me how you justify those actions as Town?
2) This makes no sense though because if we are going to follow that saying that the cotent was def scummy, then everything cross has posted is meaningless or people are just completely throwing out kpaca behavior lol. If that is not true then the content where people called be townie should be kept just as much as the stuff that made me scummy.
Yet people are only looking at crossbells town aligned behavior.
Someone care to explain how was it out of knowwhere lol, throughout the last half of day 1 i was being voted. Plus early day 2 it was obvious i become a target for votes so if anything thats the best time to claim.
You revealed your role on the very first page by making an announcement that said absolutely nothing of use, without disguising your typing style. Your role serves literally no purpose whatsoever once you've lost your anonymity, making you just a Vanilla, and yet you decided on post frickin' 43 that you'd throw away any usefulness your role had for helping Town. Then you made the absurd claim in your very next announcement that "This role would be too strong for scum." No, it wouldn't; there's no reason for the Town to listen to what the Crier's saying if they disagree.
So you instantly removed any ability your role had to help Town, instead deciding to use the role solely as a chance to claim that you weren't scum.
Wanna tell me how you justify those actions as Town?
Thats because the last time i disguised my hand writing I was caught because I fake it too heavily. So are you implying rather just have me died and have my flip show town? Im confused if i waited to the last minute to claim the amount of chaos it would have caused would have been much worse. True I didn't use the role for the best interest of town, but i rather not cause a mislynch due to my scummy behavior.
On top of how blatant that double-standard is, there isn't much basis for your argument. Chances are much higher the ability will go to a Townie than Mafia, for starters; that is obviously the rationale for using friendly abilities blind on night one in most cases. Additionally, if a 1-shot Investigative ability is gifted to a Townie then that Townie will almost always reveal right away the information gained that night, for the benefit of Town. This means that, if it's gifted to Mafia, the Mafia will have to do the same thing, or else it will be very obvious to AG that "Oh, hey, he didn't reveal his investigative results, that's suspicious." If the scum lies about the results, (s)he'll probably be caught in the lie right away.
So there's very little chance for a gifted 1-Shot Vanilla Cop ability to backfire even if given randomly, and AG didn't give it randomly: Vaimes was a strong Town-read for him, just as Vaimes is for me.
Oh my god! You do it again! This is Flavor of the Day!
You've said this multiple times. It hasn't made sense any of those times. WG isn't the flavor of toDay; he was the flavor of yesterDay, and is in fact slipping off of people's radars at the moment. AG is the flavor of toDay. So that complaint is nonsensical.
RE switches her vote as soon as he's got even slight suspicion of a new person, whereas you seem to want to wait until you're really certain of your vote target. This is just a playstyle difference. And I'm far more of a fan of RE's playstyle than yours (and mine, honestly, since I also tend to wait longer than I should.) RE brandishes her vote as intimidation in order to get people to react, often using it as pressure when people won't answer her questions, for example. This is what Town Vanillas do: they're well aware that their votes are their only weapons, so they use them accordingly. Her constant vote-swapping onto whatever she feels her current target should be, rather than following the Town's will and just jumping onto the bandwagon they want, is an extremely Townie thing to do.
Tbh i never really looked at the @BOLD that way, i always had the mindset that switching votes was scummy because it didn't show conviction. I still think that diminishes the power of the vote. Only good thing I see is it gets a great reaction out of wheat, which is starting to becoming telling.
On top of how blatant that double-standard is, there isn't much basis for your argument. Chances are much higher the ability will go to a Townie than Mafia, for starters; that is obviously the rationale for using friendly abilities blind on night one in most cases. Additionally, if a 1-shot Investigative ability is gifted to a Townie then that Townie will almost always reveal right away the information gained that night, for the benefit of Town. This means that, if it's gifted to Mafia, the Mafia will have to do the same thing, or else it will be very obvious to AG that "Oh, hey, he didn't reveal his investigative results, that's suspicious." If the scum lies about the results, (s)he'll probably be caught in the lie right away.
So there's very little chance for a gifted 1-Shot Vanilla Cop ability to backfire even if given randomly, and AG didn't give it randomly: Vaimes was a strong Town-read for him, just as Vaimes is for me.
No that's not what im saying, its just the vaimes slot seemed to be a hit or miss. I would say about half saw him as town while the other half saw him as scum. Why would a person with a town ability take a risk knowing they have 50% to give scum a new ability. Also no matter what as long as vaimes replied stating he gained the ability plus used it then no way to get any alignment out of it. I didnt really look at it that way, I was more concerned about the vigilante night 1 shot risk, which your right does have the least amount of chance happening.
This is what Town Vanillas do: they're well aware that their votes are their only weapons, so they use them accordingly. Her constant vote-swapping onto whatever she feels her current target should be, rather than following the Town's will and just jumping onto the bandwagon they want, is an extremely Townie thing to do.
I don't really remember claiming, but sweet -w- Town Vanilla is my role. Flavor is Catherine Martin. Now I hope flavor is completely irrelevant and this doesn't get me killed.
Thats because the last time i disguised my hand writing I was caught because I fake it too heavily. So are you implying rather just have me died and have my flip show town? Im confused if i waited to the last minute to claim the amount of chaos it would have caused would have been much worse. True I didn't use the role for the best interest of town, but i rather not cause a mislynch due to my scummy behavior.
In what way is acting as an anonymous Crier "scummy behavior"? That's the only way in which it helps Town. Nothing you've said gives any explanation as to why you didn't even try to remain anonymous; even if you had been "caught", you'd just become Town Vanilla as a result.
While I don't believe your rationale because it's just not helpful to Town at all, here's a suggestion just in case you're telling the truth. You can always use Google Translate in future to disguise your writing. Just write something in English and throw it into the Chinese translator, then translate it back. Voila: writing style officially unrecognizable.
Thats because the last time i disguised my hand writing I was caught because I fake it too heavily. So are you implying rather just have me died and have my flip show town? Im confused if i waited to the last minute to claim the amount of chaos it would have caused would have been much worse. True I didn't use the role for the best interest of town, but i rather not cause a mislynch due to my scummy behavior.
In what way is acting as an anonymous Crier "scummy behavior"? That's the only way in which it helps Town. Nothing you've said gives any explanation as to why you didn't even try to remain anonymous; even if you had been "caught", you'd just become Town Vanilla as a result.
While I don't believe your rationale because it's just not helpful to Town at all, here's a suggestion just in case you're telling the truth. You can always use Google Translate in future to disguise your writing. Just write something in English and throw it into the Chinese translator, then translate it back. Voila: writing style officially unrecognizable.
Sorry i phrased that wrong i was talking about the roles ability, but my ability as a player. Ill keep that tip in mind thank you.
No that's not what im saying, its just the vaimes slot seemed to be a hit or miss. I would say about half saw him as town while the other half saw him as scum.
Man, you're really lending credence to the you+WG+Proph scum team here. No one outside of your team was scum-reading Vaimes at day's end, so if that's how you saw it, it just looks like you're letting your view on the game be influenced by your faction's night chat.
No that's not what im saying, its just the vaimes slot seemed to be a hit or miss. I would say about half saw him as town while the other half saw him as scum.
Man, you're really lending credence to the you+WG+Proph scum team here. No one outside of your team was scum-reading Vaimes at day's end, so if that's how you saw it, it just looks like you're letting your view on the game be influenced by your faction's night chat.
Excuse me for not knowing the exact number of players and there names. Also when did i become connected to WG + Prop. Also i have no such faction night chat lol, mab honestly i wish i could get lynched just to see your face when i flip town. Sadly i rather that not happen though.
@Terry: Essentially, you should treat RE's votes as "Fingers of Suspicion" instead, by considering that the threshold beyond which her suspicion becomes vote-worthy rather than Finger-worthy is simply far lower than you're accustomed to it being. In that light, do you still consider her voting pattern to be scummy?
Sorry 'bout the quadruple-post; I didn't notice Terry's reply until my second was posted. Too accustomed to being notified by the forum that someone's posted since I started typing. {:^#{{
I agree, he uses it as a FOS, but even if he said FOS instead of voted it doesn't change that he doesn't lead the charge on any one (except me, but it's just OMGUS), he just jumps on to a wagon he sees forming.
Also, UNVOTE RE's claim actually works according to me and I liked the way EL called him out on it before he claimed. I may be willing to accept for today that RE is off the market.
Catching up, but I see RE has claimed vanilla. I don't think scum locks themselves into a claim this early.
Also Shinichi, can you please not spam-catch up with replies and multiposts? It's kind of annoying to read when all of your quotes/responses can be in one big post instead of 5-6 shorter ones.
It feels like you're forced to acknowledge how scummy most of Wheat's posting has been but are trying to make excuses for it even so. Perhaps you're trying too hard to read Townie-ness out of everything, and that's why you've got, by your own admission, too many Town-reads?
Throughout my mafia playing history, I've found that giving the benefit of the doubt to other players usually works out well for me in the long run because more people are town than mafia. When I read a player, I tend to think, "is there anything that makes this player town" versus "is there anything that makes this player mafia".
@RE:
Quote from RE »
Actually, I can definitely see Proph/WG as a team. Proph has his vote still on AG while completely disregarding his claim. Also, Proph does have a few too many town reads, which is a situation I think scum find themselves in more often than not, since making stabs is tough. Still finding AG scummy, but I think I'd rather lose WG.
I don't think AG's claim makes him town; I think his behavior still needs to be taken into account.
Plus, there HAS to be scum on my wagon at EoD because everyone was super OK with lynching the kpaca slot. I think AG is the scum on my wagon.
I am not a fan of the Wheat wagon given that my main two scum suspects (QH and AG) are pushing it. I would much rather lynch AG/QH/maybe Shinichi over Wheat.
No that's not what im saying, its just the vaimes slot seemed to be a hit or miss. I would say about half saw him as town while the other half saw him as scum.
Man, you're really lending credence to the you+WG+Proph scum team here. No one outside of your team was scum-reading Vaimes at day's end, so if that's how you saw it, it just looks like you're letting your view on the game be influenced by your faction's night chat.
Excuse me for not knowing the exact number of players and there names.
You don't have to know them; skimming the votecount links the mod's helpfully provided in the OP shows that only Proph's slot was voting for Vaimes, while Wheat was tunneling Vaimes all Day. And yet you had the impression that Vaimes was actually being scum-read by half the town. This shows that you're paying more attention to Proph and Wheat's opinions than to anyone else's.
Starting to think I should switch my vote to you, but as long as it's somewhere between you three I guess I'm happy.
Excuse me for not knowing the exact number of players and there names. Also when did i become connected to WG + Prop. Also i have no such faction night chat lol, mab honestly i wish i could get lynched just to see your face when i flip town. Sadly i rather that not happen though.
I am, to some extent. I mean, kpaca was undeniably scummy as ****, coasting without providing input except for useless one-liners, and backing Wheat on the completely baseless Vaimes hate. But post-replacement you've been a'right.
But that's why I'm not voting you, so Iunno why you're complaining. I think you're the best fit for a team with Wheat and Shin, but they're also independently super scummy, so I wanna lynch them, see how they flip, and then take a harder look at you.
Ok, I'm caught up and I decided to not bother doing a hundred replies as I usually do. It would have taken too long.
Vaimes and AG are not scum together because Vaimes would have told us he checked AG or another alive scumbuddy. He told us he checked Rhand. Rhand, who died at the same time. Which scum in what world lies like this. Besides, it's not like it makes no sense that Vaimes checked Rhand, as he had claimed a PR.
If AG was scum, he would have given the shot to a scumbuddy. Vaimes is town for the Rhand thing. Thus, AG is town.
This is my stand on the matter. Besides, I don't think scum just decide to undergo such a plan to try and clear themselves. If anything, once we're out of clues and conclude Vaimes and AG were scum afterall, then we at least get two scum in a row. I'm not lynching either of them today because their claims are actually believable.
And Mishu I know your name but can't remember playing with you. Were you in Harhui Mafia?
Yeah, got killed N1 in that one as the cat character (townie). I'm not a notable player. Besides that, I think our only game is the Twins one, where I won as scum.
*Quick aside I love that RE and Terry put aside their differences to jump at Vaimes there. After each other all game but putting it aside like that gives me a fresh t/t vibe.
^ So much for that, eh? These guys are at it again. Which is actually pretty good, sounds weird for scum to destroy a reason someone has been townreading them.
Eh. Shinichi's play has been scummy as *****, but the way he's been using his role is. I don't really know how scum would handle it, but he seems unconcerned? Agenda-less? He basically outed himself as soon as he could, which seems more careless than calculated. Plus, announcement-type roles tend to be town waaay more often than not.
Well you caught me due to my grammar before that, and i rather out myself now then have to counterclaim. I won't be able to prove a role is mine as easily as others. Also i always play with an unconcerned attitude.
I like Shinichi's response here because unlike Vaimes said, we discovered Shinichi's role instead of him claiming it. So he actually corrects Vaimes' words.
@Grapefruit if I understand correctly your night talk with shadowlx was mostly about Shinichi. Who initiated the talk? I see shadowlx pushing Shinichi toDay, but I'm not sure I saw you do that, unless I misremember. Not sure how this could be relevant, but hey.
In the communication roles thingy, Shinichi comes off worse than shadowlx afterall based on his reactions. I can explain if people think it matters.
But at the same time I think shadowlx's interactions with Wheat_Grinder (or the other way around) make him a scumbuddy. So I'm also curious of why RE thinks they're unaligned. Just to say I'm more open to Shin being scum because of some posts he has made, but I still think shadowlx is scummier because of [see previous sentence]. There's also the possibility of both roles being from the same alignment so ugh.
I don't agree with Terry on the RE thing, I don't believe scum just jumps on the train like that once someone gets caught in a 'trap'. I understand his point on RE/Grape throwing shade on him though, that makes plenty of sense. The thing is I'm not sure why Terry is a confirmed town myself so I can sympathize with the suspicions these two players have on Terry.
I guess I can get behind Terry saying himself that he's a confirmed townie, but something bugs me about shadowlx townlocking him. Scum know who the townies are, but they wouldn't townlock someone too easily in case of looking too convinced -- so if they see what looks like a decent reason to townlock someone (in this case Terry's trap), I think it wouldn't be too weird of them to indeed townlock him. 1) it gets towncred if Terry flips town, 2) there's no need to fear the 'conviction argument' because Terry himself declared it was alright to show conviction that he's a townie.
How does a vanilla or not vanilla result help town?
There's something you and others have never thought of regarding this:
If AG is town there's no way he can know if he's giving an ability to town or scum. So it doesn't matter if what he's giving is more helpful to a side or another.
Most of the Town reads on Wheat were from people saying he was being too blatantly scum to be scum, which...no. Just no. And Vaimes was Town-reading him mostly in self-defense, it seemed: a fairly typical "Hey, I think you're Town, so now you can stop tunneling me kthx" response to a baseless tunnel from someone he hadn't yet had a chance to read in-depth. Now that Wheat's behavior has finally started to be directed towards people other than Vaimes, Vaimes seems more willing to say what he really thinks about the slot.
Now hold on, I usually see scum try to get a town tunneler of their back, not town. What makes you say Vaimes is town for that, exactly?
@RE1031: You see no way AG and WG can be aligned? I mean, WG has been scummy as hell to me from his very first post, but if he were hypothetically Town as you're positing, then I could totally see their argument as T/T.
You seem to imply by this that AGod is town. Why do you believe that?
Welcome, EternalLurker. I like your posts already.
I am literally not taking into account Shinichi's role when evaluating him except that I do not think that AG and Shinichi are scum together. If they were, then the scum would be filled to the brim with townie/proveable roles and I do not think that Cantrip would design his game in such a manner.
Don't forget, Wheat was a huge part of why y'all couldn't lynch Shinichi yesterday.
Oh **** that noise.
No, I wasn't going to help lynch someone I was pretty sure was town. I wasn't going to lynch kpaca either. I laid out a list of like 4 people I'd be willing to lynch, including players that I wasn't super certain of.
The reasoning on both Shinichi and kpaca was bad, the wagon on kpaca was especially bad, I wasn't joining a blatant mislynch of either just to get a flip. Some people do that but I don't.
This is what Town Vanillas do: they're well aware that their votes are their only weapons, so they use them accordingly. Her constant vote-swapping onto whatever she feels her current target should be, rather than following the Town's will and just jumping onto the bandwagon they want, is an extremely Townie thing to do.
I don't really remember claiming, but sweet -w- Town Vanilla is my role. Flavor is Catherine Martin. Now I hope flavor is completely irrelevant and this doesn't get me killed.
I am, to some extent. I mean, kpaca was undeniably scummy as ****, coasting without providing input except for useless one-liners, and backing Wheat on the completely baseless Vaimes hate. But post-replacement you've been a'right.
have you played with kpaca before
let me ask you this, actually: how do scum act where you're from?
and one more question: How do you feel about the kpaca wagon that sprung up?
Vaimes and AG are not scum together because Vaimes would have told us he checked AG or another alive scumbuddy. He told us he checked Rhand. Rhand, who died at the same time. Which scum in what world lies like this. Besides, it's not like it makes no sense that Vaimes checked Rhand, as he had claimed a PR.
If AG was scum, he would have given the shot to a scumbuddy. Vaimes is town for the Rhand thing. Thus, AG is town.
This is my stand on the matter. Besides, I don't think scum just decide to undergo such a plan to try and clear themselves. If anything, once we're out of clues and conclude Vaimes and AG were scum afterall, then we at least get two scum in a row. I'm not lynching either of them today because their claims are actually believable.
It also doesn't hurt that Vaimes was pretty Town-cleared right from Day One, but yes, Vaimes' immediate reaction to Rhand's death is basically a clear right there. This is why, since AG vs WG is almost certainly TvM, we should all be lynching WG today, since he's been scummy as hell anyway.
*Quick aside I love that RE and Terry put aside their differences to jump at Vaimes there. After each other all game but putting it aside like that gives me a fresh t/t vibe.
^ So much for that, eh? These guys are at it again. Which is actually pretty good, sounds weird for scum to destroy a reason someone has been townreading them.
No, the original argument doesn't hold up. RE being tunneled by Terry, yet willing to look past it and jump in on Terry's plan when he thinks it's a good one, is certainly Townie. But no part of that clears Terry as Town. It definitely doesn't feel MvM, sure, but TvM is entirely plausible.
I think shadowlx's interactions with Wheat_Grinder (or the other way around) make him a scumbuddy.
You cannot just say "or the other way around" casually like that and imply that either direction means the same thing. There is a huge difference between two people being scum-buddies versus scum pocketing a Townie. Do you legit think shadow's interactions with WG are a problem, or only "the other way around"? Because I already said that WG's scum plan appears to include cozying up to key Townie players, and shadow being a neighborizer is a prettttty key player.
Now hold on, I usually see scum try to get a town tunneler of their back, not town. What makes you say Vaimes is town for that, exactly?
What? I was saying he was already Town; I wasn't Town-reading him for defending against your tunneling. There's nothing to read into self-defense against a completely baseless tunnel. Maybe if not every single thing you'd said against Vaimes had been completely meritless, I would've been able to read int the defense, but as-is the defense was totally irrelevant re:Vaimes' alignment.
Don't forget, Wheat was a huge part of why y'all couldn't lynch Shinichi yesterday.
Oh **** that noise.
No, I wasn't going to help lynch someone I was pretty sure was town. I wasn't going to lynch kpaca either. I laid out a list of like 4 people I'd be willing to lynch, including players that I wasn't super certain of.
The reasoning on both Shinichi and kpaca was bad, the wagon on kpaca was especially bad, I wasn't joining a blatant mislynch of either just to get a flip. Some people do that but I don't.
Yeah, except after you spent all Day making ***** up left and right to try to get one of the Towniest people here lynched, you'll have to forgive me for considering your list of who was and wasn't lynch-worthy to be complete crap.
I am, to some extent. I mean, kpaca was undeniably scummy as ****, coasting without providing input except for useless one-liners, and backing Wheat on the completely baseless Vaimes hate. But post-replacement you've been a'right.
have you played with kpaca before
let me ask you this, actually: how do scum act where you're from?
and one more question: How do you feel about the kpaca wagon that sprung up?
No, I haven't, and I don't intend to do so if that's how he is regardless of alignment. Regardless, I'm not getting into meta. It's a silly concept to me, giving people free passes for scummy behavior just cuz that's how they've acted in the past. Anti-Town plays are anti-Town plays regardless of prior history.
I'm new to play-by-post Mafia. I've done IRL Mafia. Scum don't have the luxury of refusing to contribute when they're in a room with me staring them in the face.
The wagon sprung up because he was being scummy as hell, and the wagon didn't take off because scum didn't join it to lynch their buddy and too many Townies were too busy following a crap Rhand read to do anything about the person being actually scummy. I know, that Rhand read came from my own slot pre-replacement, so I apologize for it, and I do understand the overall rationale behind it. But it was an overreaction to tone that spiraled out of control into a full-blown wagon. Won't happen while I'm here; I don't tunnel a read based on something as incredibly easy to fake in a forum setting as "tone". Tone can maybe contribute sometimes to a read, but making it the primary factor is...just no.
I am, to some extent. I mean, kpaca was undeniably scummy as ****, coasting without providing input except for useless one-liners, and backing Wheat on the completely baseless Vaimes hate. But post-replacement you've been a'right.
But that's why I'm not voting you, so Iunno why you're complaining. I think you're the best fit for a team with Wheat and Shin, but they're also independently super scummy, so I wanna lynch them, see how they flip, and then take a harder look at you.
Honestly no offense but the stuff you see as mistakes crossbell would not let me make them lol
You're the only one who hasn't really taken a stance yet IIRC.
Right now i'm really torn between AG and WG ik one of them is scum. I dislike the way WG has playing the same way as others hate how i've been playing he seems the most likely scum spot. While I aint a fan of AG role claim nor who he chose to give the cop check too.
Outside of that i wanted to look into the MR slot, but idk if lurker actually thinks im seriously scummy or hes just trying to force a train on a obvious scum spot that is town in actuality.
Re1031 I disliked too but ever since that claim idk what to think of her anymore.
Grapefruit i am still iffy about, i'm always catious about his slot.
QH keeps coming back and defending me which is weird lol, I think he's town though. Mostly like his giant catch up posts every so often.
No that's not what im saying, its just the vaimes slot seemed to be a hit or miss. I would say about half saw him as town while the other half saw him as scum.
Man, you're really lending credence to the you+WG+Proph scum team here. No one outside of your team was scum-reading Vaimes at day's end, so if that's how you saw it, it just looks like you're letting your view on the game be influenced by your faction's night chat.
Excuse me for not knowing the exact number of players and there names.
You don't have to know them; skimming the votecount links the mod's helpfully provided in the OP shows that only Proph's slot was voting for Vaimes, while Wheat was tunneling Vaimes all Day. And yet you had the impression that Vaimes was actually being scum-read by half the town. This shows that you're paying more attention to Proph and Wheat's opinions than to anyone else's.
Starting to think I should switch my vote to you, but as long as it's somewhere between you three I guess I'm happy.
I invite you to do that, also i'm not going off of votes alone they were others who hadn't voted vaimes who thought his spot was a little supicious.
Excuse me for not knowing the exact number of players and there names. Also when did i become connected to WG + Prop. Also i have no such faction night chat lol, mab honestly i wish i could get lynched just to see your face when i flip town. Sadly i rather that not happen though.
Technically I did claim on day 1 even if it was soft, unless vaimes figured it out before then not sure. Also AG literally outted me as that role before i claimed if i recalled. I do alot of scummy things but in my mind they are't as bad as what others make them out to be lol.
Edit- Forgot to mention in my last post that shadow was also one of my scum reads, but im basing this off the fact that alot of people seem the think both roles cant be town aligned.
let me ask you this, actually: how do scum act where you're from?
I freaking love this question so much, cause knowing this answer acutally helps the on site players understand the off site players.
I freaking hate that question so much, 'cuz it's basically just asking "Hey, what scum-tells should I be avoiding around you?"
Shrug why are you pessimistic about everything, people rely on meta way more than i want. So knowing this kind of information helps those who don't know said persons meta i dont see anything wrong with that.
Actually, I can definitely see Proph/WG as a team. Proph has his vote still on AG while completely disregarding his claim. Also, Proph does have a few too many town reads, which is a situation I think scum find themselves in more often than not, since making stabs is tough. Still finding AG scummy, but I think I'd rather lose WG.
I don't think AG's claim makes him town; I think his behavior still needs to be taken into account.
Plus, there HAS to be scum on my wagon at EoD because everyone was super OK with lynching the kpaca slot. I think AG is the scum on my wagon.
I am not a fan of the Wheat wagon given that my main two scum suspects (QH and AG) are pushing it. I would much rather lynch AG/QH/maybe Shinichi over Wheat.
Your explanation only works if we know you are town for certain, and we don't. Also, I was on your train (sort of). I have trouble understanding your cases against QH and for WG. For QH, the only thing I'm getting is his lack of real time interactions - which doesn't strike me as AI to be honest? The content on the other hand is really good (backed up). You're also ignoring WG's behavior because two of your suspects are voting for him, which is actually kind of worse than giving AG a chance because of his claim.
In the communication roles thingy, Shinichi comes off worse than shadowlx afterall based on his reactions. I can explain if people think it matters.
But at the same time I think shadowlx's interactions with Wheat_Grinder (or the other way around) make him a scumbuddy. So I'm also curious of why RE thinks they're unaligned. Just to say I'm more open to Shin being scum because of some posts he has made, but I still think shadowlx is scummier because of [see previous sentence]. There's also the possibility of both roles being from the same alignment so ugh.
Mostly due to the way WG showed suspicion of shadow on two separate occasions, although it's significantly less so than AG/WG.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Grapefruit i am still iffy about, i'm always catious about his slot.
WHAT?
Your previous read on Grape was:
Quote from Shinichi »
Only 2 people im truly convinced have the highest chance of being town that would be vaimes and grapefruit. Shadow and AG seem to have the highest chance of being scum in my book.
Quote from Shinichi »
I made it clear i don't scum read grape so why would i include him with others. My bad on the phrasing, i should have stated that everyone but grape and vaimes set off alarm bells.
I am, to some extent. I mean, kpaca was undeniably scummy as ****, coasting without providing input except for useless one-liners, and backing Wheat on the completely baseless Vaimes hate. But post-replacement you've been a'right.
But that's why I'm not voting you, so Iunno why you're complaining. I think you're the best fit for a team with Wheat and Shin, but they're also independently super scummy, so I wanna lynch them, see how they flip, and then take a harder look at you.
Fair enough. It just kind of skeeved me out on how you lumped me in with them (and provided reasoning as to why you scumread them) but did not provide much reasoning as to why you thought /I/ was scum.
Quote from Shinichi »
Right now i'm really torn between AG and WG ik one of them is scum. I dislike the way WG has playing the same way as others hate how i've been playing he seems the most likely scum spot. While I aint a fan of AG role claim nor who he chose to give the cop check too.
....you aren't a fan of Vaimes... but you said that Grapefruit and Vaimes were your top two town...
Add to your #1141 the post where Shinichi says he'd've given Grapefruit the 1-Shot Vanilla Cop ability, and now the recent posts vs me where he claims that AG is suspicious for not having chosen Grapefruit (choosing Vaimes instead). Soooo....yeah.
I have no idea how Shinichi is arriving at his reads. His progression on Grapefruit is nonexistent and I have no idea how he went from "Vaimes and Grapefruit are town" to "Grapefruit I'm still iffy about, always cautious about this slot". I don't think he actually believes his reads.
Plus his backtrack on Vaimes feels like he is trying to keep lynch options open.
Quote from Shinichi »
Excuse me for not knowing the exact number of players and there names. Also when did i become connected to WG + Prop. Also i have no such faction night chat lol, mab honestly i wish i could get lynched just to see your face when i flip town. Sadly i rather that not happen though.
This is the post that is kind of making me second guess this read because this is a pretty tonally town post, but I can't ignore the above. It feels like Shinichi is making stuff up along the way.
Your explanation only works if we know you are town for certain, and we don't. Also, I was on your train (sort of). I have trouble understanding your cases against QH and for WG. For QH, the only thing I'm getting is his lack of real time interactions - which doesn't strike me as AI to be honest? The content on the other hand is really good (backed up). You're also ignoring WG's behavior because two of your suspects are voting for him, which is actually kind of worse than giving AG a chance because of his claim.
Well, I know that I'm town for certain, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For QH - I literally just got out of a game where the final scum posted similarly to QH in that he wouldn't real time interact, but just post cases and reads all the time. The fact that QH is /always/ making catchup posts and is never really present in the thread (and is fine with that) strikes me as off.
My read on Wheat is already explained in my ISO of him. How am I ignoring his behavior?
Grapefruit i am still iffy about, i'm always catious about his slot.
WHAT?
Your previous read on Grape was:
Quote from Shinichi »
Only 2 people im truly convinced have the highest chance of being town that would be vaimes and grapefruit. Shadow and AG seem to have the highest chance of being scum in my book.
Quote from Shinichi »
I made it clear i don't scum read grape so why would i include him with others. My bad on the phrasing, i should have stated that everyone but grape and vaimes set off alarm bells.
PLEASE explain this progression to me.
I dont scum read him tho, i'm just always keeping an eye on that slot not sure whats strange about that?
...is this constant spam of half a dozen straight posts without reading the thread supposed to be an attempt at a derp-clear or something?
Explain how it was out of nowhere lol.
So you thought i was town because my meta is the same but u dont even know his meta yet you think hes town anyways.
How so im pretty sure you can connect some dots between the final vote count and the night kill.
Someone care to explain how was it out of knowwhere lol, throughout the last half of day 1 i was being voted. Plus early day 2 it was obvious i become a target for votes so if anything thats the best time to claim.
I have a few ideas of who could have done it but i need to look at the last vote count before the day ended to recheck something.
I dont think anyone should make that assumption because if thats why others see WG as town then i should be getting that same exact treatment
I am reading i just obviously past the post somewhere, but thanks for the snarky reply lol.
Seems Like AG could be scum, cause i don't see why as town he would risk giving an ability to someone that may be mafia. To those who think the vanilla cop check was worthless true it was cause it didnt help much seeing as how the person died, the ability itself still seems pretty powerful.
So you instantly removed any ability your role had to help Town, instead deciding to use the role solely as a chance to claim that you weren't scum.
Wanna tell me how you justify those actions as Town?
Yet people are only looking at crossbells town aligned behavior.
Thats because the last time i disguised my hand writing I was caught because I fake it too heavily. So are you implying rather just have me died and have my flip show town? Im confused if i waited to the last minute to claim the amount of chaos it would have caused would have been much worse. True I didn't use the role for the best interest of town, but i rather not cause a mislynch due to my scummy behavior.
On top of how blatant that double-standard is, there isn't much basis for your argument. Chances are much higher the ability will go to a Townie than Mafia, for starters; that is obviously the rationale for using friendly abilities blind on night one in most cases. Additionally, if a 1-shot Investigative ability is gifted to a Townie then that Townie will almost always reveal right away the information gained that night, for the benefit of Town. This means that, if it's gifted to Mafia, the Mafia will have to do the same thing, or else it will be very obvious to AG that "Oh, hey, he didn't reveal his investigative results, that's suspicious." If the scum lies about the results, (s)he'll probably be caught in the lie right away.
So there's very little chance for a gifted 1-Shot Vanilla Cop ability to backfire even if given randomly, and AG didn't give it randomly: Vaimes was a strong Town-read for him, just as Vaimes is for me.
Tbh i never really looked at the @BOLD that way, i always had the mindset that switching votes was scummy because it didn't show conviction. I still think that diminishes the power of the vote. Only good thing I see is it gets a great reaction out of wheat, which is starting to becoming telling.
No that's not what im saying, its just the vaimes slot seemed to be a hit or miss. I would say about half saw him as town while the other half saw him as scum. Why would a person with a town ability take a risk knowing they have 50% to give scum a new ability. Also no matter what as long as vaimes replied stating he gained the ability plus used it then no way to get any alignment out of it. I didnt really look at it that way, I was more concerned about the vigilante night 1 shot risk, which your right does have the least amount of chance happening.
its been cleared that is is irrelevant.
While I don't believe your rationale because it's just not helpful to Town at all, here's a suggestion just in case you're telling the truth. You can always use Google Translate in future to disguise your writing. Just write something in English and throw it into the Chinese translator, then translate it back. Voila: writing style officially unrecognizable.
Sorry i phrased that wrong i was talking about the roles ability, but my ability as a player. Ill keep that tip in mind thank you.
Excuse me for not knowing the exact number of players and there names. Also when did i become connected to WG + Prop. Also i have no such faction night chat lol, mab honestly i wish i could get lynched just to see your face when i flip town. Sadly i rather that not happen though.
Also Shinichi, can you please not spam-catch up with replies and multiposts? It's kind of annoying to read when all of your quotes/responses can be in one big post instead of 5-6 shorter ones.
Throughout my mafia playing history, I've found that giving the benefit of the doubt to other players usually works out well for me in the long run because more people are town than mafia. When I read a player, I tend to think, "is there anything that makes this player town" versus "is there anything that makes this player mafia".
@RE:
I don't think AG's claim makes him town; I think his behavior still needs to be taken into account.
Plus, there HAS to be scum on my wagon at EoD because everyone was super OK with lynching the kpaca slot. I think AG is the scum on my wagon.
kpaca (5): Vaimes, Grapefruit21, AtheistGod, shadowlancerx, Mindreaver
----
I am not a fan of the Wheat wagon given that my main two scum suspects (QH and AG) are pushing it. I would much rather lynch AG/QH/maybe Shinichi over Wheat.
Starting to think I should switch my vote to you, but as long as it's somewhere between you three I guess I'm happy.
You're the only one who hasn't really taken a stance yet IIRC.
Specifically the bolded part?
It feels like you're scumreading me based off of pre-flip associations.
I am, to some extent. I mean, kpaca was undeniably scummy as ****, coasting without providing input except for useless one-liners, and backing Wheat on the completely baseless Vaimes hate. But post-replacement you've been a'right.
But that's why I'm not voting you, so Iunno why you're complaining. I think you're the best fit for a team with Wheat and Shin, but they're also independently super scummy, so I wanna lynch them, see how they flip, and then take a harder look at you.
Vaimes and AG are not scum together because Vaimes would have told us he checked AG or another alive scumbuddy. He told us he checked Rhand. Rhand, who died at the same time. Which scum in what world lies like this. Besides, it's not like it makes no sense that Vaimes checked Rhand, as he had claimed a PR.
If AG was scum, he would have given the shot to a scumbuddy. Vaimes is town for the Rhand thing. Thus, AG is town.
This is my stand on the matter. Besides, I don't think scum just decide to undergo such a plan to try and clear themselves. If anything, once we're out of clues and conclude Vaimes and AG were scum afterall, then we at least get two scum in a row. I'm not lynching either of them today because their claims are actually believable.
To AG: do you have anything else to give?
Yeah, got killed N1 in that one as the cat character (townie). I'm not a notable player. Besides that, I think our only game is the Twins one, where I won as scum.
^ So much for that, eh? These guys are at it again. Which is actually pretty good, sounds weird for scum to destroy a reason someone has been townreading them.
I like Shinichi's response here because unlike Vaimes said, we discovered Shinichi's role instead of him claiming it. So he actually corrects Vaimes' words.
@Grapefruit if I understand correctly your night talk with shadowlx was mostly about Shinichi. Who initiated the talk? I see shadowlx pushing Shinichi toDay, but I'm not sure I saw you do that, unless I misremember. Not sure how this could be relevant, but hey.
In the communication roles thingy, Shinichi comes off worse than shadowlx afterall based on his reactions. I can explain if people think it matters.
But at the same time I think shadowlx's interactions with Wheat_Grinder (or the other way around) make him a scumbuddy. So I'm also curious of why RE thinks they're unaligned. Just to say I'm more open to Shin being scum because of some posts he has made, but I still think shadowlx is scummier because of [see previous sentence]. There's also the possibility of both roles being from the same alignment so ugh.
I don't agree with Terry on the RE thing, I don't believe scum just jumps on the train like that once someone gets caught in a 'trap'. I understand his point on RE/Grape throwing shade on him though, that makes plenty of sense. The thing is I'm not sure why Terry is a confirmed town myself so I can sympathize with the suspicions these two players have on Terry.
I guess I can get behind Terry saying himself that he's a confirmed townie, but something bugs me about shadowlx townlocking him. Scum know who the townies are, but they wouldn't townlock someone too easily in case of looking too convinced -- so if they see what looks like a decent reason to townlock someone (in this case Terry's trap), I think it wouldn't be too weird of them to indeed townlock him. 1) it gets towncred if Terry flips town, 2) there's no need to fear the 'conviction argument' because Terry himself declared it was alright to show conviction that he's a townie.
There's something you and others have never thought of regarding this:
If AG is town there's no way he can know if he's giving an ability to town or scum. So it doesn't matter if what he's giving is more helpful to a side or another.
But he didn't claim ahhhhhhh.
He got figured out.
I mean, like, what other abilities can you give. How does your stuff work. plz Xplain.
No clue. I don't remember how you play.
Less scummy than this game I can only assume.
Now hold on, I usually see scum try to get a town tunneler of their back, not town. What makes you say Vaimes is town for that, exactly?
You seem to imply by this that AGod is town. Why do you believe that?
Not sure if this is directed at me or EL so being safe - I looked at and responded to the question you asked me in it.
Oh **** that noise.
No, I wasn't going to help lynch someone I was pretty sure was town. I wasn't going to lynch kpaca either. I laid out a list of like 4 people I'd be willing to lynch, including players that I wasn't super certain of.
The reasoning on both Shinichi and kpaca was bad, the wagon on kpaca was especially bad, I wasn't joining a blatant mislynch of either just to get a flip. Some people do that but I don't.
I'm really skeeved out by that last line.
I work all day man
have you played with kpaca before
let me ask you this, actually: how do scum act where you're from?
and one more question: How do you feel about the kpaca wagon that sprung up?
It also doesn't hurt that Vaimes was pretty Town-cleared right from Day One, but yes, Vaimes' immediate reaction to Rhand's death is basically a clear right there. This is why, since AG vs WG is almost certainly TvM, we should all be lynching WG today, since he's been scummy as hell anyway.
No, the original argument doesn't hold up. RE being tunneled by Terry, yet willing to look past it and jump in on Terry's plan when he thinks it's a good one, is certainly Townie. But no part of that clears Terry as Town. It definitely doesn't feel MvM, sure, but TvM is entirely plausible.
You cannot just say "or the other way around" casually like that and imply that either direction means the same thing. There is a huge difference between two people being scum-buddies versus scum pocketing a Townie. Do you legit think shadow's interactions with WG are a problem, or only "the other way around"? Because I already said that WG's scum plan appears to include cozying up to key Townie players, and shadow being a neighborizer is a prettttty key player.
That he did, and that's what I meant in my post. People seem to have misinterpreted it. I probably should've been more explicit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What? I was saying he was already Town; I wasn't Town-reading him for defending against your tunneling. There's nothing to read into self-defense against a completely baseless tunnel. Maybe if not every single thing you'd said against Vaimes had been completely meritless, I would've been able to read int the defense, but as-is the defense was totally irrelevant re:Vaimes' alignment.
See the top of this post, where QH explains this. Really should be a given already for everyone; Vaimes explained exactly this earlier.
Yeah, except after you spent all Day making ***** up left and right to try to get one of the Towniest people here lynched, you'll have to forgive me for considering your list of who was and wasn't lynch-worthy to be complete crap.
And your reason is...?
No, I haven't, and I don't intend to do so if that's how he is regardless of alignment. Regardless, I'm not getting into meta. It's a silly concept to me, giving people free passes for scummy behavior just cuz that's how they've acted in the past. Anti-Town plays are anti-Town plays regardless of prior history.
I'm new to play-by-post Mafia. I've done IRL Mafia. Scum don't have the luxury of refusing to contribute when they're in a room with me staring them in the face.
The wagon sprung up because he was being scummy as hell, and the wagon didn't take off because scum didn't join it to lynch their buddy and too many Townies were too busy following a crap Rhand read to do anything about the person being actually scummy. I know, that Rhand read came from my own slot pre-replacement, so I apologize for it, and I do understand the overall rationale behind it. But it was an overreaction to tone that spiraled out of control into a full-blown wagon. Won't happen while I'm here; I don't tunnel a read based on something as incredibly easy to fake in a forum setting as "tone". Tone can maybe contribute sometimes to a read, but making it the primary factor is...just no.
Because i specifically wanted to interact with them, well grape to.
Honestly no offense but the stuff you see as mistakes crossbell would not let me make them lol
Right now i'm really torn between AG and WG ik one of them is scum. I dislike the way WG has playing the same way as others hate how i've been playing he seems the most likely scum spot. While I aint a fan of AG role claim nor who he chose to give the cop check too.
Outside of that i wanted to look into the MR slot, but idk if lurker actually thinks im seriously scummy or hes just trying to force a train on a obvious scum spot that is town in actuality.
Re1031 I disliked too but ever since that claim idk what to think of her anymore.
Grapefruit i am still iffy about, i'm always catious about his slot.
QH keeps coming back and defending me which is weird lol, I think he's town though. Mostly like his giant catch up posts every so often.
I invite you to do that, also i'm not going off of votes alone they were others who hadn't voted vaimes who thought his spot was a little supicious.
what about it?
Technically I did claim on day 1 even if it was soft, unless vaimes figured it out before then not sure. Also AG literally outted me as that role before i claimed if i recalled. I do alot of scummy things but in my mind they are't as bad as what others make them out to be lol.
Edit- Forgot to mention in my last post that shadow was also one of my scum reads, but im basing this off the fact that alot of people seem the think both roles cant be town aligned.
I freaking love this question so much, cause knowing this answer acutally helps the on site players understand the off site players.
Shrug why are you pessimistic about everything, people rely on meta way more than i want. So knowing this kind of information helps those who don't know said persons meta i dont see anything wrong with that.
(i amend my last post. replace "to" with "with")
Your explanation only works if we know you are town for certain, and we don't. Also, I was on your train (sort of). I have trouble understanding your cases against QH and for WG. For QH, the only thing I'm getting is his lack of real time interactions - which doesn't strike me as AI to be honest? The content on the other hand is really good (backed up). You're also ignoring WG's behavior because two of your suspects are voting for him, which is actually kind of worse than giving AG a chance because of his claim.
Mostly due to the way WG showed suspicion of shadow on two separate occasions, although it's significantly less so than AG/WG.
Your previous read on Grape was:
PLEASE explain this progression to me.
....you aren't a fan of Vaimes... but you said that Grapefruit and Vaimes were your top two town...
?????????????????????
Sorry I can't ignore this.
I have no idea how Shinichi is arriving at his reads. His progression on Grapefruit is nonexistent and I have no idea how he went from "Vaimes and Grapefruit are town" to "Grapefruit I'm still iffy about, always cautious about this slot". I don't think he actually believes his reads.
Plus his backtrack on Vaimes feels like he is trying to keep lynch options open.
This is the post that is kind of making me second guess this read because this is a pretty tonally town post, but I can't ignore the above. It feels like Shinichi is making stuff up along the way.
For QH - I literally just got out of a game where the final scum posted similarly to QH in that he wouldn't real time interact, but just post cases and reads all the time. The fact that QH is /always/ making catchup posts and is never really present in the thread (and is fine with that) strikes me as off.
My read on Wheat is already explained in my ISO of him. How am I ignoring his behavior?
I dont scum read him tho, i'm just always keeping an eye on that slot not sure whats strange about that?
Are you implying that if i scum read AG i have to scum read Vaimes im confused?
You just called Vaimes "hit or miss" in #1109.