I think Vaimes is town. Ditto with Grapefruit and JT.
RE.. I haven't had the time to reread and look over but the post I quoted feels fairly genuine and I do not really think that she is scum? I'm just not a fan of how the thread consensus has turned against her when I don't really recall her doing anything scummy. I want to take the time and read her ISO but I am unsure if I will be able to tonight. Regardless, I think she has a couple of genuine posts in response to herself being pressured and I do not really want her to be the lynch Today.
shadow has noticeably dropped off Today but I sort of liked his catch-up post since he mind-melded what I was thinking about JT. The neighborizer claim does not really change my read on him in any fashion. Unwilling to lynch Today but I want him to produce more content soon.
Wheat I am also unwilling to lynch Today but what I'm clearing off of him (belief in thinking that Vaimes is scum) is kind of thin. I still think he is town but I have some paranoia vibes since I know Wheat is good as scum and has certainly pocketed me before.
Shinichi/Mindreaver-slot/AG/Quickhoodies is where I think 1-2 of the scum are assuming my reads aren't completely off the deep end, with a caveat that I do not think that Shinichi/AG are both scum together. Just mostly PoE and such - I'll try to explain these later, but I wouldn't really shed a tear if any of these people were lynched Today.
@Vaimes if you're going to defend yours on basis of narrowing down then it's a bit disingenuous to pressure me for it when in my list I talk about howshin and [redacted] are purely mechanical and I've been asking for opinions and I stated that I want more from Proph despite a good entrance.
Ahh so i get it, your saying if my role is town then the other power role your thinking of has to be scum. Wheres the basis on that tho?
Good design wouldn't double up on roles that fill the same niche in a small game. But it's harder to say for sure with low powered roles that don't fit the traditional information/protection/denial triangle.
1. So you think I'm scum buddies with AG, who gave his scum ability to town-vaimes, who I tried to frame with my trap? How does that work out when vaimes flips town in this scenario? I agree with you on AG's behavior. The fact is, that his role exists as he described it, but we can't be sure of which alignment he is based on the role. I personally feel like it is NOT a town role as he described it.
@VAIMES: What do you think about AG's role?
Regarding your Shadow read... you do realize that it is all dependent on not just me being scum, but also AG being scum?
AS far as I go, you must have blinders on thicker than I do because you must only be seeing the posts where I call you scum and not any others.
No, you're right. I'm far less confident about shadow and you compared to AG. Actually, a while back, shadow made a post in response to Grapefruit asking to be sold on his lynch, and I did find that a very townie reaction, but at the time, I suspected Grapefruit, so I chose to ignore it. If the whole neighborizer thing is true (because honestly, there is actually no evidence of it existing), then I believe them to be unaligned, making shadow's reaction genuine and not something planned in a private chat. So my case on shadow is really weak.
If I ignore your case against me, you are pretty town. But I can't because it's really distracting.
As for voting for Vaimes, I completely understand how scummy that looks. It's a little embarrassing. But it's day 2 and the only thing we know so far is Rhand is town. I was willing to go down the easy route and get someone through mechanics over behavior.
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I'd like to hear those who haven't already comment on the whole AG claiming business. That's a big deal, and I don't think it's getting the attention it deserves.
can you link me to the post where he claimed his role so i can get a better incite on it?
Even better, I'll link you to the post where you responded to it: #856.
Shinichi, I'm sorry, but you're either scum or your memory makes me want to cry. You replied to AG's claim and unvoted. You also replied to several posts regarding his claim. So I don't know why you are asking for a link to his claim.
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Proph, talk to me about how your town read on me diminishes that much based on my lack of activity for 2 days, because thats all I was low efforting it up for after this weekend.
I agree with Proph up to a point on Terry. I agree the initial excitement makes him town, and unlike Proph I think that Terry didn't do it to townfirm himself as scum. I just don't see him feigning that level of excitement while also knowing it was bull or going to hurt his team (and it would have been one or the other).
1. You posted nothing but one-line contentless posts until you started coming under fire. When you did finally claim you didn't actually post your ability even though it wasn't obvious what it did.
2. Once you finally started asking questions, you never cared about the answers.
3. Once your full claim was out, as mentioned before, too much around the ability usage is suspect for me to believe that you can possibly be town.
How does a vanilla or not vanilla result help town?
Okay, this combined with everything else is enough to convince me Terry is town. And Shadow has a point that while some as scum would make the trap play that it doesn't fit Terry's style. Like I don't think scum!Terry doesn't even think through how it can benefit, but town!Terry would keep hammering his point. And I know he will say this is just damage control, but that is probably a town post.
And to answer the question it can disprove fake claims and check claims and that's about the extent of the utility.
Replying to Shadow's catchup I read RE as having a genuine moment of "ohhh that makes sense" the initial question of what happened before latching onto the trap and voting. But that's getting into tonal guessing.
As for the previous trap in a game I don't want to link because it turned into a real mess and involved me being a huge jerk and replacing out in spite after being in a slap fight. I'd rather not publically broadcast the exact details of my poor behavior. But the gist of it is scum jumped on someone seeming not to know the flavor said town was zombies when to someone without a PM it would have been assumed town was human (similar to not knowing or paying attention to the order of operations). They garnered town reads based on setting a trap that would make more sense coming from town, but were scum. I can answer more questions or link the game if really needed.
A'right, all caught up. Reminder: I'm Mindreaver's replacement. Nice to meetchyall.
There are some things I need explained, if you don't mind.
1) For everyone: Why would anyone ever Town-read Shinichi based off of his role as Crier? As Mafia, you can use that ability to seed distrust among Townies. As Town, the ability is only useful for the purpose of sharing reads anonymously, so that if you're right about your reads Mafia can't just shut you up by killing you. But Shinichi revealed his role right away, thus negating absolutely any benefit from the role. As Town, the role does literally nothing at all when your anonymity is lost, and he voluntarily gave up that anonymity almost instantly. I cannot possibly Town-read this and am very confused as to how others are doing so.
2) For everyone who's not Wheat_Grinder: Can someone explain to me how Wheat spends nearly twenty pages fake-tunneling onto Vaimes with absolutely no evidence, making ***** up left and right to support his nonexistent points, and yet people somehow interpret this baseless overconfidence as a Townie thing to do instead of the incredibly scummy play it is? I would've lynched him by, like, his second post, and that hasn't changed at all throughout the rest of the game since then. So far, almost all of the defenses of WG have been "He's playing like such obvious scum that he can't be scum", but this is a horrible assumption to make. Occam's Razor, people. If all I have to do to be successful scum and fool all of you is to play like scum....
3) For everyone but mostly Vaimes: Vaimes, you said that the reason Rhand was targeted by the night-kill should be "super obvious" to anyone who's Town. Care to share this reason? I have my own theories as to why Rhand was targeted, but none of them seem "super obvious", given that they've clearly been ignored by everyone thus far. Everyone else, if you have your own theories, please chime in as well. It's odd to me that this was not the initial topic of discussion for the new day.
@Eternal Lurker
1: I agree with your implied stance. The out of nowhere claim is very strange. And He's been scummy all game.
2: I'm unfamiliar with Wheat. The pressure garnered town reads from people which led me to believe Wheat was playing to meta. I've asked numerous times after wheat's meta and if this is normal before and after the flip to scum reads coming in D2 and I don't know what to make of it.
3: I feel night kill analysis is almost entirely worthless and just leads to wine. But you also didn't really ask a question to anyone but Vaimes so I'm just talking about the topic.
1. I decided to town read Shinichi off of meta. Slowly changing my mind. Didn't clear him based on the crier, although I'm more inclined to believing the neighboring ability is scummy if we're comparing.
2. I thought he was scum because of that day 1, but that read was not shared by many. The whole deal with AG has changed my mind about him being scum. But, I'm kind of at a lost right now so I may revisit that possibility.
3. I agree with Vaimes, actually I think I stated my reasoning before him - that Rhand soft claimed and they targeted him above say a more town-read player. But if you have other ideas, it'd be great to hear them. I'm open to anything new.
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3)
It can lead to wine, which is why I was reluctant to share my theories about it, but Vaimes' statement stuck out as odd.
2)
I don't care if someone's "playing to meta" when they're being hilariously scummy. Claiming that scummy behavior is acceptable just cuz someone's been scummy in the past is just giving people free passes for not working with Town, like how people were saying that it's just normal for kpaca to sit around and do absolutely nothing all game. (Not that I'm necessarily scum-reading the kpaca slot at the moment; the content was definitely scummy prior to his replacement, but the fishy wagon killed my scum-reading momentum pretty hard.) This is why I don't bother asking for meta.
Most of the Town reads on Wheat were from people saying he was being too blatantly scum to be scum, which...no. Just no. And Vaimes was Town-reading him mostly in self-defense, it seemed: a fairly typical "Hey, I think you're Town, so now you can stop tunneling me kthx" response to a baseless tunnel from someone he hadn't yet had a chance to read in-depth. Now that Wheat's behavior has finally started to be directed towards people other than Vaimes, Vaimes seems more willing to say what he really thinks about the slot.
Sorry, my previous post was in response to Grapefruit's. I wish this thing would warn me when someone posts while I'm typing a post.
@RE1031: Do you like WG's attack on AG simply because you agree with an AG=scum assessment, or do you actually like the content of his posts? If AG flips Town, does this day still give you more confidence in WG than you had day 1?
@RE1031: Do you like WG's attack on AG simply because you agree with an AG=scum assessment, or do you actually like the content of his posts? If AG flips Town, does this day still give you more confidence in WG than you had day 1?
It's because I don't see any way they could be aligned. They're voting for each other. I would say WG's case on AG is stronger than AG's case on WG. If I target one, it means indirectly townreading the other. I scumread AG pretty hard. What made WG scummy was the lack of evidence behind his scumread of Vaimes. There's actually a bit of evidence now - and he's targeting others. If AG flips town, I would probably lose all confidence, but yes, I think I would resort to treating WG as scum.
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@EternalLyrker I get the Vaimes read could be self defense but he wasn't the only person who town read Wheat and wasn't the only one who flipped his stance. I just can't stop thinking about that.
As for the free passes argument I'm seeing that all over this game (including from myself) and it's a pet peeve, but pressing AG and Shin feels like a good place to start correcting that.
@Vaimes: Oh. Fair point. I guess that's that, then. I'm not really accustomed to games with Vanilla roles; my bad.
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@shadowlancerx: You asked who wants to chat tonight. I'm pretty sure you were okay with my slot's prior inhabitant yesterDay, so I'm available if you'd like. There are probably better targets, though; I'm just putting the option on the table.
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@RE1031: You see no way AG and WG can be aligned? I mean, WG has been scummy as hell to me from his very first post, but if he were hypothetically Town as you're positing, then I could totally see their argument as T/T.
This seems to be in line with your previous assessment that Wheat_Grinder is unaligned with everyone from your point of view. I'm not sure I agree. He spent a huge chunk of Day One cozying up to Shinichi (whenever he wasn't busy falsifying new accusations against Vaimes), and Shin spent most of that Day defending Proph's slot with similarly little evidence. Now, suddenly, Day Two rolls around and Proph looks to be intentionally distancing himself from Shin. It feels to me like he replaced in and immediately scolded those two in night chat for making the scum-buddy-trio too obvious, so that they're acting totally differently today.
Literally the only evidence I have against a Shin+Proph+WG team is the way the Proph-slot wagon materialized instantly yesterDay, but it disappeared just as quickly so that's not really enough to take that team out of my top slotted read.
Proph, talk to me about how your town read on me diminishes that much based on my lack of activity for 2 days, because thats all I was low efforting it up for after this weekend.
It's a combination of me not being that confident on me townreading you, PLUS other people like JT and Wheat moving up for me.
Simply put, there are far too many people that I am townreading for gut townie tonal tells. That makes me paranoid because when I'm reading a lot of people as gut-town then it's likely that I'm being pocketed somewhere, because there is no way that my reads are 100% correct.
Welcome, EternalLurker. I like your posts already.
I am literally not taking into account Shinichi's role when evaluating him except that I do not think that AG and Shinichi are scum together. If they were, then the scum would be filled to the brim with townie/proveable roles and I do not think that Cantrip would design his game in such a manner.
@Proph: I did indeed read it. That was one of the many posts which I mentioned as apparently derp-clearing Wheat for being "too scummy to be scum" -- your exact words at one point there. It also dances around the fact (obliquely referencing it but never actually calling it out for being incredibly scummy) that Wheat spent multiple pages aggressively tunneling Vaimes and forcing him to respond repeatedly, then used the very responses he'd forced from Vaimes to say "wow Vaimes can't stop talking about me, look at this laser focus he's got on me". That was possibly the most blatantly scummy B.S. I've seen in mafia history.
It feels like you're forced to acknowledge how scummy most of Wheat's posting has been but are trying to make excuses for it even so. Perhaps you're trying too hard to read Townie-ness out of everything, and that's why you've got, by your own admission, too many Town-reads?
I'm not sure yet whether I'd rather vote for Shinichi or Wheat. (I guess now you know my slot's not a double-voter!) I'ma let the WG<->AG thing play out a little more while I make my decision.
A'right, all caught up. Reminder: I'm Mindreaver's replacement. Nice to meetchyall.
There are some things I need explained, if you don't mind.
1) For everyone: Why would anyone ever Town-read Shinichi based off of his role as Crier? As Mafia, you can use that ability to seed distrust among Townies. As Town, the ability is only useful for the purpose of sharing reads anonymously, so that if you're right about your reads Mafia can't just shut you up by killing you. But Shinichi revealed his role right away, thus negating absolutely any benefit from the role. As Town, the role does literally nothing at all when your anonymity is lost, and he voluntarily gave up that anonymity almost instantly. I cannot possibly Town-read this and am very confused as to how others are doing so.
2) For everyone who's not Wheat_Grinder: Can someone explain to me how Wheat spends nearly twenty pages fake-tunneling onto Vaimes with absolutely no evidence, making ***** up left and right to support his nonexistent points, and yet people somehow interpret this baseless overconfidence as a Townie thing to do instead of the incredibly scummy play it is? I would've lynched him by, like, his second post, and that hasn't changed at all throughout the rest of the game since then. So far, almost all of the defenses of WG have been "He's playing like such obvious scum that he can't be scum", but this is a horrible assumption to make. Occam's Razor, people. If all I have to do to be successful scum and fool all of you is to play like scum....
3) For everyone but mostly Vaimes: Vaimes, you said that the reason Rhand was targeted by the night-kill should be "super obvious" to anyone who's Town. Care to share this reason? I have my own theories as to why Rhand was targeted, but none of them seem "super obvious", given that they've clearly been ignored by everyone thus far. Everyone else, if you have your own theories, please chime in as well. It's odd to me that this was not the initial topic of discussion for the new day.
Since I was originally one of those people who town read shin based on his role, I'll tell you what I was thinking at the time. I thought that the role was not used in the way scum would, which is basically what you're saying in point 1, that it was not used properly. However, I changed my mind when I realized that perhaps on of the best ways to use it is to buy town cred with it. In the end I still feel like Shin and Shadow can't be on the same team and both the crier and neighborizer can easily be either alignment
@RE1031: You see no way AG and WG can be aligned? I mean, WG has been scummy as hell to me from his very first post, but if he were hypothetically Town as you're positing, then I could totally see their argument as T/T.
This seems to be in line with your previous assessment that Wheat_Grinder is unaligned with everyone from your point of view. I'm not sure I agree. He spent a huge chunk of Day One cozying up to Shinichi (whenever he wasn't busy falsifying new accusations against Vaimes), and Shin spent most of that Day defending Proph's slot with similarly little evidence. Now, suddenly, Day Two rolls around and Proph looks to be intentionally distancing himself from Shin. It feels to me like he replaced in and immediately scolded those two in night chat for making the scum-buddy-trio too obvious, so that they're acting totally differently today.
Literally the only evidence I have against a Shin+Proph+WG team is the way the Proph-slot wagon materialized instantly yesterDay, but it disappeared just as quickly so that's not really enough to take that team out of my top slotted read.
What makes you think AG is town? Also I don't actually remember any WG/Shinichi interactions, but I could see Proph/WG being a team.
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I had a little husband no bigger than my thumb,
I put him in a pint pot, and there I bid him drum;
I bought a little handkerchief to wrap around his neck,
And a pair of silver coins to send him on his trek.
vote: Wheat_Grinder
Actually, I can definitely see Proph/WG as a team. Proph has his vote still on AG while completely disregarding his claim. Also, Proph does have a few too many town reads, which is a situation I think scum find themselves in more often than not, since making stabs is tough. Still finding AG scummy, but I think I'd rather lose WG.
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vote: Wheat_Grinder
Actually, I can definitely see Proph/WG as a team. Proph has his vote still on AG while completely disregarding his claim. Also, Proph does have a few too many town reads, which is a situation I think scum find themselves in more often than not, since making stabs is tough. Still finding AG scummy, but I think I'd rather lose WG.
Oh my god! You do it again! This is Flavor of the Day!
What makes you think AG is town? Also I don't actually remember any WG/Shinichi interactions, but I could see Proph/WG being a team.
I'm not directly Town-reading AG, although his choice of Vaimes as the target for his ability last night (as opposed to Grapefruit, widely considered the Towniest person here) gives him some Townie points in my books. (In fact, Shinichi explicitly said that he would've given Grapefruit the ability if he'd had it, and Shinichi is part of my top scum-team of Proph+WG+Shin, sooooo. Yeah.)
I'm just agreeing with you that AG and WG are probably not both scum (although I could see them both being Town), and unlike you I considered WG the far more scummy player of the two, which would make AG the more probable Town by default.
The Day One WG/Shinichi interaction was mostly WG offering baseless (as usual) praise for Shinichi's Towniness, with a side of Shinichi refraining from commenting on WG. Check out, for example, where Wheat literally tells Vaimes "You and Shinichi did the same thing but I'm gonna scum-read you for it while not caring about Shin doing it." Or where Wheat again blatantly twists facts to try to defend Shinichi (note that he's even lumping kpaca in with Vaimes in that post, saying that they both did something he considers scummy, yet just prior to that he claimed Vaimes voting kpaca was one of his many bull***** reasons for considering Vaimes scum). Or any of the posts in which Shinichi quotes discussions with and about multiple players, including Wheat, and pointedly comments on every part of the post except Wheat's.
There really hasn't been anything subtle about WG's gameplan from his very first post: hard-tunnel one person to elicit false Town reads from people cuz "no one would fake this much certainty of having caught scum", then use that 'credibility' to clear his buddies.
Oh my god! You do it again! This is Flavor of the Day!
You've said this multiple times. It hasn't made sense any of those times. WG isn't the flavor of toDay; he was the flavor of yesterDay, and is in fact slipping off of people's radars at the moment. AG is the flavor of toDay. So that complaint is nonsensical.
RE switches her vote as soon as he's got even slight suspicion of a new person, whereas you seem to want to wait until you're really certain of your vote target. This is just a playstyle difference. And I'm far more of a fan of RE's playstyle than yours (and mine, honestly, since I also tend to wait longer than I should.) RE brandishes her vote as intimidation in order to get people to react, often using it as pressure when people won't answer her questions, for example. This is what Town Vanillas do: they're well aware that their votes are their only weapons, so they use them accordingly. Her constant vote-swapping onto whatever she feels her current target should be, rather than following the Town's will and just jumping onto the bandwagon they want, is an extremely Townie thing to do.
vote: Wheat_Grinder
Actually, I can definitely see Proph/WG as a team. Proph has his vote still on AG while completely disregarding his claim. Also, Proph does have a few too many town reads, which is a situation I think scum find themselves in more often than not, since making stabs is tough. Still finding AG scummy, but I think I'd rather lose WG.
Oh my god! You do it again! This is Flavor of the Day!
No, silly, it's not. Just wait for the flip.
@EternalLurker
I did notice the second post you linked and found it strange, not necessarily because it was defending Shinichi, but rather it was just blatantly false.
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@Terry: Essentially, you should treat RE's votes as "Fingers of Suspicion" instead, by considering that the threshold beyond which her suspicion becomes vote-worthy rather than Finger-worthy is simply far lower than you're accustomed to it being. In that light, do you still consider her voting pattern to be scummy?
Sorry 'bout the quadruple-post; I didn't notice Terry's reply until my second was posted. Too accustomed to being notified by the forum that someone's posted since I started typing. {:^#{{
So what is the plan if AG survives the night, and the next night, and the night after?
If he's town, the scumteam can't roleblock* him, so I doubt they'd let him live that long.
*always assume there's a Roleblocker
Not trying to say your wrong, but doesnt assuming theres a roleblocker hinder our movements and abilities? Isn't it better to think everything through assuming no one can stop your action.
I don't think AG's ability is actually useful at all for town, that's my biggest issue with his claim. What does a townie do with vanilla or not vanilla results? Out a power role? Its basically mod confirmed to exist.
Well true but if it only confirms vanilla townies then assentially we can use it to confirm who has pr anyone that doesnt come across hsa a vanilla would be a pr or scum. Am i wrong to assume that?
Scum hiding away lead to them getting lynched, so makes more sense to stay active in the thread and interact with players dont you think?
Does it lead to them to getting lynched, though? It's not really the case here, I tell you. Mindreaver and shadow, and to some extent me, are chilling our hearts out right now. No votes on either of us. Activity has hardly ever been a scumtell for me.
True but these phases are long people will pick up on it, which eventually leads to a pressure train.
This is what Town Vanillas do: they're well aware that their votes are their only weapons, so they use them accordingly. Her constant vote-swapping onto whatever she feels her current target should be, rather than following the Town's will and just jumping onto the bandwagon they want, is an extremely Townie thing to do.
I don't really remember claiming, but sweet -w- Town Vanilla is my role. Flavor is Catherine Martin. Now I hope flavor is completely irrelevant and this doesn't get me killed.
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So, let me explain, Cantrip basically came into the thread and confirmed he sent Vaimes results (which is to be discussed after the game more), which means Vaimes and AG weren't lying, but you were super quick to jump on this and by this, I mean lynching Vaimes, who turns out was probably telling the truth.
It doesn't change the fact that you keep tripping scum-wires. You literally, just said and then clarified you said that you cared about finding out roles. Town likes to find out about alignments, scum know alignments and care about finding the best roles to kill.
I don't care about finding out roles. My point in saying that I wouldn't mind WG claiming is because he's pretty much up there with AG in terms of scum behavior, and AG claimed. So after you lynch me, where would you go? I no longer have an interest in defending myself because I feel like regardless of what I do, it's just going to show up as scummy on your radar. The least you can do is offer (scum) reads on other people.
Yes you do. When I asked you why you cared about WG claiming his role, you said:
Well, I meant it as in he was one of my suspects and I was considering voting for him, thus putting him closer to a position to claim.
Not:
"Well, I meant it as in he was one of my suspects and I was considering voting for him, thus putting him closer to a Lynch."
So you cared about his claim, not lynching him.
Tbf lynching is priority the problem with claims is it leads to people backing off a player even if the potential of them being scum still exisits.
Also, here's how my trap worked, since you didn't seem to get it. I noticed that in Vaimes first claim of Day 2, he said he targeted Rhand and then basically said oh well. He didn't say anything about results. Later he and AG started talking about results and I realized that the results, according to the Order of Actions posted by Cantrip at the beginning of the game specified that information gathering takes place AFTER killing actions. So my trap was to make Vaimes specifically claim what results he got. If he said "no result", he passed. If he said "Not Vanilla" he failed and was lying. That was my trap.
Oh, I thought it was more elaborate than that, considering it didn't work but you still seem extremely satisfied with yourself.
I'm extremely frustrated that it didn't work, but satisfied that it was a great freaking trap and technically should have worked. Not to sound arrogant or anything, but it should also town clear me pretty hard, so I'm happy about that too because it takes one person off the suspect list for the entire town.
True but you could still be tpr that possbility hasnt gone anywhere, what we know for sure is you aren't scum. I don't see why you would propose a trap to catch your own buddy, that be some serious bussing.
Well true but if it only confirms vanilla townies then assentially we can use it to confirm who has pr anyone that doesnt come across hsa a vanilla would be a pr or scum. Am i wrong to assume that?
It doesn't just confirm Vanilla Townies. Basic Mafiosos are vanilla too, since they don't actually have any abilities other than the universal vote: the Night Kill and Night Chat are both factional abilities.
The role seems best used to check people silently. Then, if someone comes under suspicion and tries to avoid a lynch by saying "Actually I'm a power role so don't lynch me," you can catch them in the lie.
I don't really remember claiming, but sweet -w- Town Vanilla is my role. Flavor is Catherine Martin. Now I hope flavor is completely irrelevant and this doesn't get me killed.
You didn't have to claim. It was fairly obvious from your play.
Obviously I have more to respond to and what not, but this needs to be out there because I don't /think/ it will get me killed (but if it does then oh well I guess).
I am the person who neighborized grapefruit last night.
I have a very difficult time believing shin is town, he's been super scummy on top of the communication overlap, and that harkens back to the mistake that town made in Overwatch.
Also, Terry is basically lock town for that trap idea.
Likewise, i mean you could easily be a scum neighborizer. We have no idea what you discussed or why u picked gf. Also what do i have to with a game I wasn't even in. Pretty scum to use that situation to automatically assume im scummy. I mean ive played with scum aligned for both my role and your roles but i would never assume the latter because of those situations
[quote from="Shinichi »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/777879-silence-of-the-lambs-d2-mourn-one-moth?comment=1092"]We have no idea what you discussed or why u picked gf.[quote]Are you really sure it's a good idea to throw shade on someone choosing to target Grapefruit with a friendly night action, after this post of yours? Consistency, please. I'm having trouble believing that finding the scum trio was so easy, but you're not helping matters.
Man, I really don't like you wanting to lynch six different players. There aren't that many mafia. Like...are there any anti-alignments you're seeing that would help you clear x number of players if y flips scum?
Want to lynch and willing to lynch are very different. And I felt there might be a dichotomy between a crier and neighborizor and that's really the only reason I'm including both them in the pool. I think the neighborizor is town, but was worried mechanics would say they can't be if shin is. Like having a jailer and a RB. If both roles can be in the same town then both are probably town. And that's all I'm going to say about the neighborizor.
As for wanting to lynch AG and Wheat are the only two I'm actively interested in right now. And I haven't had time to read Wheat.
Though RE can keep weaving suspicion all they want that I'm avoiding it. I'm spending time with my family for the first time in two years. So yeah I'm not super engaged and on top of everything right now.
Ive used both roleblocker and jailer in a game, but i feel like that is pretty bastard. If i actually wanted to make a balanced setup i would never include both. If i were to include both it would be a town jailer and mafia roleblocker. You werent in bungou stray dogs mafia, cause if so you would know the power of a scum aligned neighborzier.
I was ins stray dogs...
And I don't see anything bastard about having a town and scum RB role, but that's not really relevant here I guess. I was also in twins where I got completely owned by scum using secret chats. I know their power more than most. And shadow had that functionality as the scum jailer in the game I was talking about.
This really has nothing to do with anything though. Why did you ask/comment on the double RB part?
Cause i saw that you were implying both could be town and obviously i saw differently. If you were in stray dogs, then you already know what a good player can do with that ability if they're scum. I'm not saying shadow is scum based on that role alone its just a possbility ill continue to keep in mind. I mainly quoted this because i wanted you to share your thoughts on the power of a scum neighborizer. Plus I also wanted to figure out why if both roles were in the game why would they both be town.
@Vaimes if you're going to defend yours on basis of narrowing down then it's a bit disingenuous to pressure me for it when in my list I talk about howshin and [redacted] are purely mechanical and I've been asking for opinions and I stated that I want more from Proph despite a good entrance.
Ahh so i get it, your saying if my role is town then the other power role your thinking of has to be scum. Wheres the basis on that tho?
Good design wouldn't double up on roles that fill the same niche in a small game. But it's harder to say for sure with low powered roles that don't fit the traditional information/protection/denial triangle.
Before I played a certain live mafia i never even thought about the possibility of their being a scum doctor, same goes for a scum aligned neighborizer. Also I still can't really connect the roles, the strength of both are significantly different. I can only annouunce information ive seen or figured out from the thread. You got to learn private info that no one else has access too.
I'd like to hear those who haven't already comment on the whole AG claiming business. That's a big deal, and I don't think it's getting the attention it deserves.
can you link me to the post where he claimed his role so i can get a better incite on it?
Even better, I'll link you to the post where you responded to it: #856.
Shinichi, I'm sorry, but you're either scum or your memory makes me want to cry. You replied to AG's claim and unvoted. You also replied to several posts regarding his claim. So I don't know why you are asking for a link to his claim.
I think that's L-2. I'm Hannibal Lecter, Town Psycho-Consultant.
Unvote:Athiestgod
Need to find the post that explains this role before i just leave my vote on you.
oh ya now i remember why i forgot, because i only knew the role and flavor. Never found anything explaining the ability so i just tossed it aside cause it was irrelevant, most if not everyone has come to the conclusion that flavor doesnt equal alignment.
How does a vanilla or not vanilla result help town?
Okay, this combined with everything else is enough to convince me Terry is town. And Shadow has a point that while some as scum would make the trap play that it doesn't fit Terry's style. Like I don't think scum!Terry doesn't even think through how it can benefit, but town!Terry would keep hammering his point. And I know he will say this is just damage control, but that is probably a town post.
And to answer the question it can disprove fake claims and check claims and that's about the extent of the utility.
Serious question does the Vanilla Cop, give vanilla results if said person checks a mafia goon? Since the role is vanilla.
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If you do have any questions then ask me them and I'll try to get to them tonight.
I think Vaimes is town. Ditto with Grapefruit and JT.
RE.. I haven't had the time to reread and look over but the post I quoted feels fairly genuine and I do not really think that she is scum? I'm just not a fan of how the thread consensus has turned against her when I don't really recall her doing anything scummy. I want to take the time and read her ISO but I am unsure if I will be able to tonight. Regardless, I think she has a couple of genuine posts in response to herself being pressured and I do not really want her to be the lynch Today.
shadow has noticeably dropped off Today but I sort of liked his catch-up post since he mind-melded what I was thinking about JT. The neighborizer claim does not really change my read on him in any fashion. Unwilling to lynch Today but I want him to produce more content soon.
Wheat I am also unwilling to lynch Today but what I'm clearing off of him (belief in thinking that Vaimes is scum) is kind of thin. I still think he is town but I have some paranoia vibes since I know Wheat is good as scum and has certainly pocketed me before.
Shinichi/Mindreaver-slot/AG/Quickhoodies is where I think 1-2 of the scum are assuming my reads aren't completely off the deep end, with a caveat that I do not think that Shinichi/AG are both scum together. Just mostly PoE and such - I'll try to explain these later, but I wouldn't really shed a tear if any of these people were lynched Today.
Good design wouldn't double up on roles that fill the same niche in a small game. But it's harder to say for sure with low powered roles that don't fit the traditional information/protection/denial triangle.
No, you're right. I'm far less confident about shadow and you compared to AG. Actually, a while back, shadow made a post in response to Grapefruit asking to be sold on his lynch, and I did find that a very townie reaction, but at the time, I suspected Grapefruit, so I chose to ignore it. If the whole neighborizer thing is true (because honestly, there is actually no evidence of it existing), then I believe them to be unaligned, making shadow's reaction genuine and not something planned in a private chat. So my case on shadow is really weak.
If I ignore your case against me, you are pretty town. But I can't because it's really distracting.
As for voting for Vaimes, I completely understand how scummy that looks. It's a little embarrassing. But it's day 2 and the only thing we know so far is Rhand is town. I was willing to go down the easy route and get someone through mechanics over behavior.
Will hopefully be resolved by tomorrow.
Even better, I'll link you to the post where you responded to it: #856.
Shinichi, I'm sorry, but you're either scum or your memory makes me want to cry. You replied to AG's claim and unvoted. You also replied to several posts regarding his claim. So I don't know why you are asking for a link to his claim.
1. You posted nothing but one-line contentless posts until you started coming under fire. When you did finally claim you didn't actually post your ability even though it wasn't obvious what it did.
2. Once you finally started asking questions, you never cared about the answers.
3. Once your full claim was out, as mentioned before, too much around the ability usage is suspect for me to believe that you can possibly be town.
Okay, this combined with everything else is enough to convince me Terry is town. And Shadow has a point that while some as scum would make the trap play that it doesn't fit Terry's style. Like I don't think scum!Terry doesn't even think through how it can benefit, but town!Terry would keep hammering his point. And I know he will say this is just damage control, but that is probably a town post.
And to answer the question it can disprove fake claims and check claims and that's about the extent of the utility.
As for the previous trap in a game I don't want to link because it turned into a real mess and involved me being a huge jerk and replacing out in spite after being in a slap fight. I'd rather not publically broadcast the exact details of my poor behavior. But the gist of it is scum jumped on someone seeming not to know the flavor said town was zombies when to someone without a PM it would have been assumed town was human (similar to not knowing or paying attention to the order of operations). They garnered town reads based on setting a trap that would make more sense coming from town, but were scum. I can answer more questions or link the game if really needed.
There are some things I need explained, if you don't mind.
1) For everyone: Why would anyone ever Town-read Shinichi based off of his role as Crier? As Mafia, you can use that ability to seed distrust among Townies. As Town, the ability is only useful for the purpose of sharing reads anonymously, so that if you're right about your reads Mafia can't just shut you up by killing you. But Shinichi revealed his role right away, thus negating absolutely any benefit from the role. As Town, the role does literally nothing at all when your anonymity is lost, and he voluntarily gave up that anonymity almost instantly. I cannot possibly Town-read this and am very confused as to how others are doing so.
2) For everyone who's not Wheat_Grinder: Can someone explain to me how Wheat spends nearly twenty pages fake-tunneling onto Vaimes with absolutely no evidence, making ***** up left and right to support his nonexistent points, and yet people somehow interpret this baseless overconfidence as a Townie thing to do instead of the incredibly scummy play it is? I would've lynched him by, like, his second post, and that hasn't changed at all throughout the rest of the game since then. So far, almost all of the defenses of WG have been "He's playing like such obvious scum that he can't be scum", but this is a horrible assumption to make. Occam's Razor, people. If all I have to do to be successful scum and fool all of you is to play like scum....
3) For everyone but mostly Vaimes: Vaimes, you said that the reason Rhand was targeted by the night-kill should be "super obvious" to anyone who's Town. Care to share this reason? I have my own theories as to why Rhand was targeted, but none of them seem "super obvious", given that they've clearly been ignored by everyone thus far. Everyone else, if you have your own theories, please chime in as well. It's odd to me that this was not the initial topic of discussion for the new day.
1: I agree with your implied stance. The out of nowhere claim is very strange. And He's been scummy all game.
2: I'm unfamiliar with Wheat. The pressure garnered town reads from people which led me to believe Wheat was playing to meta. I've asked numerous times after wheat's meta and if this is normal before and after the flip to scum reads coming in D2 and I don't know what to make of it.
3: I feel night kill analysis is almost entirely worthless and just leads to wine. But you also didn't really ask a question to anyone but Vaimes so I'm just talking about the topic.
2. I thought he was scum because of that day 1, but that read was not shared by many. The whole deal with AG has changed my mind about him being scum. But, I'm kind of at a lost right now so I may revisit that possibility.
3. I agree with Vaimes, actually I think I stated my reasoning before him - that Rhand soft claimed and they targeted him above say a more town-read player. But if you have other ideas, it'd be great to hear them. I'm open to anything new.
It can lead to wine, which is why I was reluctant to share my theories about it, but Vaimes' statement stuck out as odd.
2)
I don't care if someone's "playing to meta" when they're being hilariously scummy. Claiming that scummy behavior is acceptable just cuz someone's been scummy in the past is just giving people free passes for not working with Town, like how people were saying that it's just normal for kpaca to sit around and do absolutely nothing all game. (Not that I'm necessarily scum-reading the kpaca slot at the moment; the content was definitely scummy prior to his replacement, but the fishy wagon killed my scum-reading momentum pretty hard.) This is why I don't bother asking for meta.
Most of the Town reads on Wheat were from people saying he was being too blatantly scum to be scum, which...no. Just no. And Vaimes was Town-reading him mostly in self-defense, it seemed: a fairly typical "Hey, I think you're Town, so now you can stop tunneling me kthx" response to a baseless tunnel from someone he hadn't yet had a chance to read in-depth. Now that Wheat's behavior has finally started to be directed towards people other than Vaimes, Vaimes seems more willing to say what he really thinks about the slot.
@RE1031: Do you like WG's attack on AG simply because you agree with an AG=scum assessment, or do you actually like the content of his posts? If AG flips Town, does this day still give you more confidence in WG than you had day 1?
It's because I don't see any way they could be aligned. They're voting for each other. I would say WG's case on AG is stronger than AG's case on WG. If I target one, it means indirectly townreading the other. I scumread AG pretty hard. What made WG scummy was the lack of evidence behind his scumread of Vaimes. There's actually a bit of evidence now - and he's targeting others. If AG flips town, I would probably lose all confidence, but yes, I think I would resort to treating WG as scum.
Pretty sure someone else acknowledged it explicitly in the thread.
As for the free passes argument I'm seeing that all over this game (including from myself) and it's a pet peeve, but pressing AG and Shin feels like a good place to start correcting that.
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@shadowlancerx: You asked who wants to chat tonight. I'm pretty sure you were okay with my slot's prior inhabitant yesterDay, so I'm available if you'd like. There are probably better targets, though; I'm just putting the option on the table.
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@RE1031: You see no way AG and WG can be aligned? I mean, WG has been scummy as hell to me from his very first post, but if he were hypothetically Town as you're positing, then I could totally see their argument as T/T.
This seems to be in line with your previous assessment that Wheat_Grinder is unaligned with everyone from your point of view. I'm not sure I agree. He spent a huge chunk of Day One cozying up to Shinichi (whenever he wasn't busy falsifying new accusations against Vaimes), and Shin spent most of that Day defending Proph's slot with similarly little evidence. Now, suddenly, Day Two rolls around and Proph looks to be intentionally distancing himself from Shin. It feels to me like he replaced in and immediately scolded those two in night chat for making the scum-buddy-trio too obvious, so that they're acting totally differently today.
Literally the only evidence I have against a Shin+Proph+WG team is the way the Proph-slot wagon materialized instantly yesterDay, but it disappeared just as quickly so that's not really enough to take that team out of my top slotted read.
Simply put, there are far too many people that I am townreading for gut townie tonal tells. That makes me paranoid because when I'm reading a lot of people as gut-town then it's likely that I'm being pocketed somewhere, because there is no way that my reads are 100% correct.
I am literally not taking into account Shinichi's role when evaluating him except that I do not think that AG and Shinichi are scum together. If they were, then the scum would be filled to the brim with townie/proveable roles and I do not think that Cantrip would design his game in such a manner.
As for Wheat, did you take a look at my ISO?
Also, if you are scumreading Shinichi or Wheat, then why are you not voting for them?
It feels like you're forced to acknowledge how scummy most of Wheat's posting has been but are trying to make excuses for it even so. Perhaps you're trying too hard to read Townie-ness out of everything, and that's why you've got, by your own admission, too many Town-reads?
I'm not sure yet whether I'd rather vote for Shinichi or Wheat. (I guess now you know my slot's not a double-voter!) I'ma let the WG<->AG thing play out a little more while I make my decision.
What makes you think AG is town? Also I don't actually remember any WG/Shinichi interactions, but I could see Proph/WG being a team.
I put him in a pint pot, and there I bid him drum;
I bought a little handkerchief to wrap around his neck,
And a pair of silver coins to send him on his trek.
Votecount 2.3 - With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.
Shinichi (1): shadowlancerx
AtheistGod (4): Prophylaxis, Wheat_Grinder, Grapefruit21, RE1031
Wheat_Grinder (2): Quickhoodies, AtheistGod
RE1031 (2): Vaimes, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Not Voting: EternalLurker, Shinichi
Please inform me of any errors.
Deadline is Friday, July 21st, at 9am MDT.
Actually, I can definitely see Proph/WG as a team. Proph has his vote still on AG while completely disregarding his claim. Also, Proph does have a few too many town reads, which is a situation I think scum find themselves in more often than not, since making stabs is tough. Still finding AG scummy, but I think I'd rather lose WG.
I'm just agreeing with you that AG and WG are probably not both scum (although I could see them both being Town), and unlike you I considered WG the far more scummy player of the two, which would make AG the more probable Town by default.
The Day One WG/Shinichi interaction was mostly WG offering baseless (as usual) praise for Shinichi's Towniness, with a side of Shinichi refraining from commenting on WG. Check out, for example, where Wheat literally tells Vaimes "You and Shinichi did the same thing but I'm gonna scum-read you for it while not caring about Shin doing it." Or where Wheat again blatantly twists facts to try to defend Shinichi (note that he's even lumping kpaca in with Vaimes in that post, saying that they both did something he considers scummy, yet just prior to that he claimed Vaimes voting kpaca was one of his many bull***** reasons for considering Vaimes scum). Or any of the posts in which Shinichi quotes discussions with and about multiple players, including Wheat, and pointedly comments on every part of the post except Wheat's.
There really hasn't been anything subtle about WG's gameplan from his very first post: hard-tunnel one person to elicit false Town reads from people cuz "no one would fake this much certainty of having caught scum", then use that 'credibility' to clear his buddies.
VOTE: Wheat_Grinder
RE switches her vote as soon as he's got even slight suspicion of a new person, whereas you seem to want to wait until you're really certain of your vote target. This is just a playstyle difference. And I'm far more of a fan of RE's playstyle than yours (and mine, honestly, since I also tend to wait longer than I should.) RE brandishes her vote as intimidation in order to get people to react, often using it as pressure when people won't answer her questions, for example. This is what Town Vanillas do: they're well aware that their votes are their only weapons, so they use them accordingly. Her constant vote-swapping onto whatever she feels her current target should be, rather than following the Town's will and just jumping onto the bandwagon they want, is an extremely Townie thing to do.
No, silly, it's not. Just wait for the flip.
@EternalLurker
I did notice the second post you linked and found it strange, not necessarily because it was defending Shinichi, but rather it was just blatantly false.
Sorry 'bout the quadruple-post; I didn't notice Terry's reply until my second was posted. Too accustomed to being notified by the forum that someone's posted since I started typing. {:^#{{
Well true but if it only confirms vanilla townies then assentially we can use it to confirm who has pr anyone that doesnt come across hsa a vanilla would be a pr or scum. Am i wrong to assume that?
True but these phases are long people will pick up on it, which eventually leads to a pressure train.
I don't really remember claiming, but sweet -w-
Town Vanilla is my role. Flavor is Catherine Martin. Now I hope flavor is completely irrelevant and this doesn't get me killed.
Tbf lynching is priority the problem with claims is it leads to people backing off a player even if the potential of them being scum still exisits.
True but you could still be tpr that possbility hasnt gone anywhere, what we know for sure is you aren't scum. I don't see why you would propose a trap to catch your own buddy, that be some serious bussing.
The role seems best used to check people silently. Then, if someone comes under suspicion and tries to avoid a lynch by saying "Actually I'm a power role so don't lynch me," you can catch them in the lie.
Likewise, i mean you could easily be a scum neighborizer. We have no idea what you discussed or why u picked gf. Also what do i have to with a game I wasn't even in. Pretty scum to use that situation to automatically assume im scummy. I mean ive played with scum aligned for both my role and your roles but i would never assume the latter because of those situations
Cause i saw that you were implying both could be town and obviously i saw differently. If you were in stray dogs, then you already know what a good player can do with that ability if they're scum. I'm not saying shadow is scum based on that role alone its just a possbility ill continue to keep in mind. I mainly quoted this because i wanted you to share your thoughts on the power of a scum neighborizer. Plus I also wanted to figure out why if both roles were in the game why would they both be town.
Before I played a certain live mafia i never even thought about the possibility of their being a scum doctor, same goes for a scum aligned neighborizer. Also I still can't really connect the roles, the strength of both are significantly different. I can only annouunce information ive seen or figured out from the thread. You got to learn private info that no one else has access too.
Like i said my memory isnt that good.
oh ya now i remember why i forgot, because i only knew the role and flavor. Never found anything explaining the ability so i just tossed it aside cause it was irrelevant, most if not everyone has come to the conclusion that flavor doesnt equal alignment.
Serious question does the Vanilla Cop, give vanilla results if said person checks a mafia goon? Since the role is vanilla.