sure. he didnt put it super well.
he sort of got caught up in the probability, because he wanted to use the statistics based on mafia setups but then he typed it and thought "well, thats a better than 50-50 chance hes town"
at least thats what it seems like happened.
it doesnt seem particularly alignment indicative to me.
That I can agree with. I don't think it's alignment indicative either. I do think he meant something different the first time he said it. And he has tried to justify it. But as it's not alignment indicative I'm fine with letting it rest here.
I'm just not going to post about this anymore. I've explained several times and you're apparently ignoring me to push your "interpretation." I'll let what I've said stand and others can judge for themselves.
@Cythare: First part is looking at his as scum?
Second looking at him as town or neutral?
Third, who would I place a red ball in front of in the rest of the group, not including Tapping?
Will get to these when I can today.
Mind you I'm still trying to get a hold of Tom's motivations through his stream of consciousness style posting... Hard to feel out his motivation.
You replaced into a long game and you have a lot to go through. Great, cool. Thanks.
Now that that is out of the way, you're still a player like anyone else and subject to everything every other player is subject to in this game.
My opinions were made in the thread long ago concerning Fable. But let's start at the beginning. As I said, you complained about the amount of posts in the thread and asked for a summary of which you got a very quick, dirty run down of what had occurred. That gives you some context. Later, you make another post about how a lot of what we're saying is context heavy so you'll have to go back to the OP/something and trudge through the thread. Alright, fair enough. You then make a post about how a post of yours got eaten. Alright. Immediately after you start quoting posts from Fable (first post was #574). How many pages is that from the OP and stuff that happened right away at the start of the game?
Let's stop there since there's four points to make now. First, let's start with the last sentence of the above paragraph. You mean to tell me that for your game analysis, where you intended to go back to the OP and read up, you just decided to skip like the first 5 pages of the game? It is 5 pages at 50 posts per page I believe. Never mind, I just checked the quote from Fable to be sure. You started on page 12. So you didn't start from the OP as best as I can tell. You just dug through a post from Fable and gave reads drawn from interpreting Fable's post. You also jump far enough ahead to acknowledge Chris's flip which means you must be aware of Fable's flip and how he flipped (outing himself). So what else did you "not comment on"? The Kosa situation. Points made by Half against TS. Interaction of other players vs other players (like myself against TS as an example from the early pages of the thread that you skipped over). So when we get right down to it, you're exhibiting a tendency to skip over vast amounts of interactions. And you call it doubt casting for me stating it is interesting that you immediately went to posts from Fable and started drawing connections? Please.
Second, concerning Fable's flip you're aware that he got himself killed. So why is it you're drawing faulty connections from his posts as opposed to looking at other players interacting with him? For example, refer to a post where Half talks about how TS dropped an argument entirely once Fable had claimed scum and never bothered to pick up where he left off in the argument either before Fable was lynched or later into today where it was brought up again by Half to showcase how TS was acting in a nontowny manner by doing this. One thing that got argued a lot was how useful Fable's posts would be. A big pusher of the whole Fable's posts wont' yield anything are myself and Half while others who argued against this were Mind, TS, and DV (Mind making arguments not to throw out information, TS making arguments like "look back at how I interacted with Fable. That makes me town", and DV barning at some point). You're obviously putting stock into Fable's word since you are using them to draw such conclusions as "town lean on TS". Oh right, you mention a control with a post on how Fable reacted to Sir Chris. How does that work exactly? You know Fable flipped scum, and you know Chris flipped town. So you're using the feel of that post from Fable to judge Fable's interaction with other players and judge them based on that? Isn't that faulty since you're talking about entirely different players? Or are you just assuming? Because it looks like you are assuming.
Third, the "points" you make are not worth addressing in the post. If anything how I responded to you was perfectly legit. I cite an interest in how you are viewing/doing things. You, oh so directly, ask me to be direct since you allude to me doubt casting (as I noted in a response to you that says a lot about your perspective of my response to you). So I oblige and directly state my opinions concerning your post which questions your intent (based on previous stuff mentioned above).
Final point. Spare me the emotion spew. As I said you are like any other player in this game. Your overreaction here to my stance against you helps nothing. Sitting there and going, "Oh you should get on your knees and thank the stars I'm even here," as if to say I shouldn't be sitting here questioning which is ***NOT*** what Mafia is about at all. You dislike that I'm questioning you. Great. Deal with it. Get over it. Mafia is a game that contains hostility at times since it centers around discussing/arguing with other people. To end the point though, your outburst that threatens me the way it does (because I'm the only one actively questioning you in a hard way so you were intending that to be aimed at me) comes off as nothing more than scummy given everything else that I've seen concerning your limited interactions/views thus far into the game. I've already seen someone go off the bars with emotion in many outbursts. You acting this way isn't going to deter me from playing the game against you or anyone else. Have some scum points for all you've done.
KoD, Is your goal to put pressure on citric in some way? Because I don't see this going anywhere productive.
Lets not waste his time defending himself from arguments we can't get ***** out of. Lets get his reads on TS, D_V, Tom, Me, You, and Silver. I want the same question answered by Necarg, DoTA, Kosa, and KillJoy. After that, you guys can have all the silly bull***** fights you want. But right now, this is a distraction
Then we can figure out the most likely scum to lynch, and get ready to investigate these stances in the light of new information.
Unless you think Citric is the best lynch now, and everyone is going to change their minds this late. I think we'd need another scumclaim for that to happen, honestly. Tom, you want to help us out?
Concerning the comments about respecting a replacement -
What exactly does that mean? Don't question a lurker or develop ideas off of what they are saying? As far as I'm concerned the only one who has a need to learn what respect means in this thread is you for all the crap you've spewed flailing. Something I think you and others have referred to as "burning bridges". At no point have I assaulted who Citric is as a person. I don't even know him, but that doesn't mean I can't sit here and assess what he says. I can and will say what I'm thinking on what he or any other person says much to his chagrin.
Off topic philosophy:
@TS: The scary thought of Citric subbing right out due to interacting with me - If he does that, that's all him. As I stated in my post to him in my last point, he's subject to everything every other player is subject to. Him replacing in means little to me other than him pulling out his "replacement" card and throwing that out there as if that is supposed to curb discussion.
Or, to be more blunt, he asked for me to be direct. I gave him direct and he overreacted. I don't care who you are. You don't ask for something, get it, then complain in the manner he has. It's not townie in any sense.
Concerning the comments about respecting a replacement -
What exactly does that mean? Don't question a lurker or develop ideas off of what they are saying? As far as I'm concerned the only one who has a need to learn what respect means in this thread is you for all the crap you've spewed flailing. Something I think you and others have referred to as "burning bridges". At no point have I assaulted who Citric is as a person. I don't even know him, but that doesn't mean I can't sit here and assess what he says. I can and will say what I'm thinking on what he or any other person says much to his chagrin.
Off topic philosophy:
@TS: The scary thought of Citric subbing right out due to interacting with me - If he does that, that's all him. As I stated in my post to him in my last point, he's subject to everything every other player is subject to. Him replacing in means little to me other than him pulling out his "replacement" card and throwing that out there as if that is supposed to curb discussion.
Or, to be more blunt, he asked for me to be direct. I gave him direct and he overreacted. I don't care who you are. You don't ask for something, get it, then complain in the manner he has. It's not townie in any sense.
So you going to answer the now two questions I have of you or are you content to just make things up and bulldoze past.
Apparently it is a byproduct of me disliking what he's saying. I've already shown he has a tendency to skip over a lot of content so I'm not surprised if he gets "distracted" with other things. How Citric responds to me is on him though. It's not my job to "contain" how I respond to him for his sake.
Point - Citric already gave some reads on some players that goes up as far as the end of D1 from the looks of it. Course, and funny enough, he's making some of these reads (ex. TS) based off of Fable's words. To his credit (ex again TS), he's asking for opinions on it (and mine should be pretty obvious for drawing conclusions based on Fable). I take it you are aware of his cursory stances to the players he's mentioned thus far?
Right, I'd just like to let you know KoD that you're a massive dick. And please don't take that lightly, because I've played a LOT of games of mafia over the past whatever number of years, and I don't think I've EVER felt provoked to such a degree by someone in a game (let alone this quickly). Sure, you have all right to think whatever of me and/or my slot. But you're going completely beyond alignment. Hell, you're throwing personal insults into your ******* post and then topping it off with "have some scum points." I could just as easily be scum as town, but it's a ******* mafia game, you don't have to be a ******* dick to someone REGARDLESS of their alignment. Your throwing that at the end is 100% clear to me as either trying to provoke me on purpose or your complete lack of basic social skills (in realizing that mafia alignment and how you treat another person DON'T mix).
Example two being in: "I don't care who you are. You don't ask for something, get it, then complain in the manner he has. It's not townie in any sense." No, it has NOTHING to do with ******* alignment. It has to do with not being a ******* dick. But again you're deciding to completely mix alignment with how you're treating another player in the game.
In the future, I'm going to just 100% avoid any game where I will ever have to deal with you being in the game as well. That time has past for this game, because I'm not sending the mod off to find another replacement when he's already had to find so many, so I'm going to proceed to completely ignore your posts for the forseeable future, so have fun talking to yourself
Like seriously, I'm not asking you to grovel or something, I'm just asking you to be respectful and realize after replacing a short time before into a game which already has 1500 posts, on a forum where deadlines are super slow in order to specifically facilitate players not having much time to post on some days, you're immediately being a massive ******* dick about how you specifically dislike how I'm catching up in the game. Unless and until you specifically apologize, you can **** off.
@Everyone else + mods
Sorry for injecting my own drama into the game. I'm going to do my best to drop it and not speak to KoD if I have to in order to avoid filling the thread with stupid drama of my own
From here on out, if KoD asks a question or said something referring to me that you specifically want me to answer, please re-ask me. I'm likely going to ignore most of what he said otherwise, so if he asks a useful question or something that's likely the only way you'll actually hear me give an answer
hey tapping, remember that time you werent town and i nailed you and then you erased it from your memory and mafia statistics?
me too.
thats what fanning the flames looks like.
DO NOT DISCUSS OTHER ACTIVE GAMES OUTSIDE THEIR GAME THREADS/MOD-APPROVED CHANNELS. I can't stress this enough, DO NOT DISCUSS OTHER GAMES IN PROGRESS. This violates both forum rules and game rules. There will be no further warnings.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
Almost all of the player interaction is around Fable from yesterday, at least most of the merit. By saying ignore Fable, you effectively ignore everything thus making rereading useless.
But let's go further. The player that rereading and looking at interaction would be most promising once again our caught scum Fable, or in this case we should look at the people who refused to say anything about Fable ever. Like H_T who said nothing about Fable at all.
I'll also note that you've effectively made zero cases today. I guess going after a lurker seems like a good play to scum defending another scum though. Rolleyes
This is the closest I could find of you "barning" the argument. My representation of you in my otherwise terse description of the events may be oversimplified, but as far as the argument goes you have given grief to both Half and I over the whole ignoring Fable's posts due to WIFOM. We've argued this at length already in the thread, but what it comes down to is some of us (Half and myself) think it is useless to consider Fable's posts as you won't draw anything useful from them (many examples were given: interactions with TS and myself from Fable for example). Instead we said it is more useful to focus on how others responded to Fable or acted towards him (ex. Half's post concerning how TS acted once Fable had claimed which paints his actions in a nontownie manner). You, on the other hand, are seemingly treating it as a package deal, that looking at others requires looking at Fable's posts too.
Also, major note to make. I reread what you quoted and I get the impression you are thinking I'm saying you barned how TS stated his interactions with Fable make him town. That's not what I said, and is evident with how I separated each point concerning Mind, TS, and you with commas to indicate as such. The whole point was wrt to dealing with Fable's posts. Mind thinks it is useful. TS, too, thinks it is useful. You, too, think it is useful as given by your stance in arguing against TS and I (again me saying barning is not accurate unless I deal in absolutes in that you sided with that argument thus barning).
I understand you feel heated; however, that's no reason for you to call me a dick and make it personal. As you've stated, you've been in many mafia games. You should know the nature of the games. I've not made any personal attacks on you to warrant a personal attack. My responses and views of you are well within operating to play the game. You are neglecting this though in order to react in a way that TS has acted at multiple points during the course of this game. In a strict sense, I feel anything goes in mafia. If the mods feel how TS and you are acting is acceptable (with the personal attacks), then obviously how I am reacting to you is definitely within game parameters in being extremely critical of you per my own viewpoints.
Get off your high horse and cry less about how I'm responding to you. Making such attacks against me doesn't paint you in any sort of town light whatsoever. Act like a townie if you're a townie. Or don't and continue to act scummy.
And for the record Citric, how you are catching up is my business if you show a tendency to skip content to make cursory reads like I've shown you to be doing. Explain to me the town motivation in skipping the first 11 pages of the game to make reads off of a scum player who willingly outed himself. I'd love to know because you've certainly skipped content on other players that could help draw conclusions in favor of what the outed scum had said.
Almost all of the player interaction is around Fable from yesterday, at least most of the merit. By saying ignore Fable, you effectively ignore everything thus making rereading useless.
But let's go further. The player that rereading and looking at interaction would be most promising once again our caught scum Fable, or in this case we should look at the people who refused to say anything about Fable ever. Like H_T who said nothing about Fable at all.
I'll also note that you've effectively made zero cases today. I guess going after a lurker seems like a good play to scum defending another scum though. Rolleyes
This is the closest I could find of you "barning" the argument. My representation of you in my otherwise terse description of the events may be oversimplified, but as far as the argument goes you have given grief to both Half and I over the whole ignoring Fable's posts due to WIFOM. We've argued this at length already in the thread, but what it comes down to is some of us (Half and myself) think it is useless to consider Fable's posts as you won't draw anything useful from them (many examples were given: interactions with TS and myself from Fable for example). Instead we said it is more useful to focus on how others responded to Fable or acted towards him (ex. Half's post concerning how TS acted once Fable had claimed which paints his actions in a nontownie manner). You, on the other hand, are seemingly treating it as a package deal, that looking at others requires looking at Fable's posts too.
Also, major note to make. I reread what you quoted and I get the impression you are thinking I'm saying you barned how TS stated his interactions with Fable make him town. That's not what I said, and is evident with how I separated each point concerning Mind, TS, and you with commas to indicate as such. The whole point was wrt to dealing with Fable's posts. Mind thinks it is useful. TS, too, thinks it is useful. You, too, think it is useful as given by your stance in arguing against TS and I (again me saying barning is not accurate unless I deal in absolutes in that you sided with that argument thus barning).
Savvy?
That's not clear at all.
The way that sentence reads is that I barned the TS statement that his interactions with Fable made him town.
@Everyone else + mods
Sorry for injecting my own drama into the game. I'm going to do my best to drop it and not speak to KoD if I have to in order to avoid filling the thread with stupid drama of my own
Don't worry about it. Me and TS already had a thing so at least the two of us don't have any room to talk. Sorry you'll have to slog through that starting at 28.
I'm not in any big hurry, myself, though I think I've said everything I have to say for the moment. Take your time.
With the way you quoted it, yeah, of course it doesn't read that way.
A big pusher of the whole Fable's posts wont' yield anything are myself and Half while others who argued against this were Mind, TS, and DV (Mind making arguments not to throw out information, TS making arguments like "look back at how I interacted with Fable. That makes me town", and DV barning at some point).
There's the full sentence. Notice how it starts off talking about Fable's posts and how they won't yield anything and continues on to list three names followed by parentheses and explanations for each name. Notice, too, the commas which separate each explanation. In short, the reason for TS is not connected to the reason for you. You're just misreading it.
With the way you quoted it, yeah, of course it doesn't read that way.
A big pusher of the whole Fable's posts wont' yield anything are myself and Half while others who argued against this were Mind, TS, and DV (Mind making arguments not to throw out information, TS making arguments like "look back at how I interacted with Fable. That makes me town", and DV barning at some point).
There's the full sentence. Notice how it starts off talking about Fable's posts and how they won't yield anything and continues on to list three names followed by parentheses and explanations for each name. Notice, too, the commas which separate each explanation. In short, the reason for TS is not connected to the reason for you. You're just misreading it.
I think we have to forms of miscommunication on my part.
I don't think I made my position on Fable that clear. I think there are some grains of truth to be taken out of Fable's post not everything is going to be WIFOM and such.
But more importantly I think the interaction of other players to Fable is very valuable. Now I am not saying that it clears TS, but I do feel that it leads to the idea that he is actually town. While other players straight up ignored saying anything on the matter, which to me is scummy because I feel that scum overall wouldn't know how to react genuinely to Fable's play
Yeah ok I see what you mean I was taking it as a possessive It and the last thing mentioned in the sentence was TS's statement. So that became to me what I was barning and not the original Idea. Gotchu.
It's not my job to "contain" how I respond to him for his sake.
Trust me, I've had just about enough of special snowflakes with thin skin this game. So I wasn't saying you should lay off him for "his sake". I was saying that what you're doing isn't advancing the gamestate, and I'm already sick of this day's drama fest.
Be honest, what did we get out of the last 5 or 6 posts between you guys? I don't see anything relevant to mafia. Except you can both insult each other, and you both played lots of mafia.
So all Citric's energy has now gone into attacking/defending against/responding to you. Which doesn't help me figure out how he's viewing the game at all. It doesn't help me figure out anything, other than he doesn't like you. Which isn't alignment indicative
I said give him space so that he can get in a re-read, and get his *mafia* opinions on record, and then we can move forward. Question him about the game? Sure. But this was tangential, and provocative, for no benefit.
@Tom: Reaching way back in your posts, at one point in this game you called DoTa scum, going after a town Tapping Stones. I know a lot in the game state has changed since then, but can you point out a few things that made you think this?
Paraphrase if you don't want to outright quote.
@Annorax: Will do my part to. *Pushes away keyboard labled KoD's buttons.*
I like H_T. I don't agree with the theory that he's just acting like a moderator in order to appear townie and not solve the game.
I don't like TS. IMO, everything that was said regarding the possibility of him being town (role, interations with Fable, attitude towards H_T, etc) is WIFOM except maybe Fable's vote on him early on. That's literally the only thing giving my pause on his alignment.
I also don't like D_V, but he's less likely to be scum if TS is.
Unsure of Tom. The jump on H_T seemed like he just wanted to lynch the current wagon, whichever it was. Aside that, hard to read.
I like you better Day 2 than I did Day 1. Still, IGMEOY.
I like KoD for no particular reason. To me, just seems like he's contributing with the game and passes me a general townie image.
It sure as hell is helping me. You've already seen me assess his post and reactions (none of which scream town to me). How about we take a different approach? Let's do a light hearted, general comparison.
Let's consider Wheat, Brin, and Tom. Now in the interest of being fair, Brin only had something like 150 posts to look at compared to the mess Citric has to look at; however, when someone decides to start at the OP (Citric), I expect actually looking at stuff that occurred, you know, on the first 10 pages. Or even the first 5.
Brin got involved with saying he skipped over the rvs ending and my argument with Chris, but he ends up showing notes he was making while progressing through page 2. Compare this with Citric who says he'll go to the OP (I assume opening post to start from there - the beginning) and ends up skipping literally 10 pages worth of stuff (if you want to forget the rvs, there are still other things like all the opinions about Kosa as the foremost example that he never touched on).
Both Wheat and Tom essentially started at the same time. Some time during July 11th. When they replaced in it was near the beginning of page 9 (about 400 posts into the game). Certainly a bit more than Brin for both of them, but nowhere near the amount that Citric has to go through. I acknowledge that. Either way, both Tom and Wheat end up commenting on stuff from near the beginning of the game thread via a lot of skimming that I can see (I went back to where they replaced in and have been skimming for their posts). Tom presented a strong posting presence after replacing in, and Wheat ends up catching up after Tom's numerous posts. Both of them comment on past thread stuff with short opinions and some more in depth ones where applicable (I saw a rainbow wall Tom gave with what looked like pairs). I had to scan more for posts from Wheat, but Wheat gets more involved after his initial postings on page 11 (post #503) showing he is definitely rereading beginnings of the thread.
Point of all this is that some players started playing at somewhat high post lvls and still managed to showcase attention to what has occurred before in some way. That's the difference between them and Citric. Citric skipped over all that crap and got into later stuff without regard to earlier stuff (focused on drawing conclusions from Fable's posts). Already that doesn't sit as townie to me since we've already had some players show attempts at this even if they did just skim. But skipping 10 pages worth? All he's doing is getting involved to be involved as opposed to being like Rhand who was involved, but apparently couldn't/didn't keep up enough making it harder to continue. And that comes off as suspicious on its own (from Rhand) which just makes me think Citric got the raw end of the deal here (as I can honestly see him as scum from my perspective).
Final final point, I'm certainly using my interactions to draw conclusions. It does help even if you think it doesn't. Oh and one more thing about Citric, after being pressured by me when he asked for it, his response was in-line with how TS acted on the emotional side. His appeal to me, rather than my questions concerning his mindset, was one of I should be thankful he's even playing and that I'm just a jerk. Followed up later with a complete ignore on me so he doesn't have to address what I'm saying (which is grounded in the game so he's not excused at all, but he wants to be which *again* doesn't come off as town).
And Shock, side commentary like that doesn't help either. You're acting no way in-line with how you acted town in the previous two games we played. Are you content to watch me continuously rake at people while sitting on the sidelines? Because that's a fast track way to get me to look at you as scum much in the way how Numbers stated you just come off scummy in how you act (though how you're doing it here is different from how you did it as town).
You asked Tom about DoTA due to Tom thinking DoTA is scum at one point. Did you even notice how I called out DoTA for his sparse case against Mongoose that could essentially be pot-kettle? Why are you interested in Tom thinking of DoTA being scum from back then now and not others like me or Half (I believe Half nodded at my case against DoTA)?
@KoD: The point about asking about Tom's thoughts on scum!Dota way back is less about his thoughts on why he's scum (seeing some of his meta reasons, and taxing my time enough casing Tom that I can't do a full examination here).
The point is why does he feel scum!Dota is going after what he felt back then was a town!Tapping. A lot of things are left unexplained in his posts that I'm having trouble getting into Tom's mind. Hard to get a read on on a Seppel/ISO/you level.
Hoping the answer might give a little insight.
Will take a look at the weak Mongoose case see if that turns up anything useful.
Which doesn't help me figure out how he's viewing the game at all.
Pretty sure that's why KoD was asking him to explain his mindset, to which cit became very defensive rather than just explain his thought process. While this exchange does not explain cit's mindset, it is the first piece of information we have towards reading cit and that's hardly irrelevant.
@cyth, I read your question to those not voting TS as "if you're leaning town or null on TS, then who are you scum leaning?" Is this correct?
This is the closest I could find of you "barning" the argument. My representation of you in my otherwise terse description of the events may be oversimplified, but as far as the argument goes you have given grief to both Half and I over the whole ignoring Fable's posts due to WIFOM. We've argued this at length already in the thread, but what it comes down to is some of us (Half and myself) think it is useless to consider Fable's posts as you won't draw anything useful from them
Nobody cares about your crappy theory. Many strong players catch scum based on flip scum's interactions. We use their words all the time. If you are too dense to know about this strategy then that's your problem. You are a toxic player and I assuredly would never sign up for a game where I saw your name present/ Not only do lack even a basic understanding of logic you also refuse to see yourself being wrong in any scenario. Nobody wants to deal with you. This is the last post I respond to you for the remainder of the game, consider yourself on honorary ignore.
On a serious note, that's not a theory. That's a perspective on the game play based on a reasonable assertion due to the nature of Fable's posts which has been showcased through examples. Come to think of it you even gave a faulty example about how your interactions with Fable make you town.
On a less serious note, I do believe I have found the pot to my kettle.
@shock can you point me where i said that and ill try to remember?
ill be very interested to see these cases on me.
im definitely playing an experimental style this game.
not getting as involved as usual.
i had a realization that my initial reactions/gut reads are far better than when i try to do research and make cases.
see getting proph mislynched day 1 in twinborn, or knowing matowar was town in off the grid but talking myself out of it.
so yeah. maybe make a cursory mention of that in your cases. if you feel like.
either way. that seems like a problem for tomorrow. cuz this lynch is happening.
Sorry, I am here, been a rough couple of days. Two year old got a horrible stomach bug on the weekend, and yesterday my wife caught it. Barely keeping up with my other game and this one has been racing along at one hell of a clip.
Quote from Brinatoo »
@DoT: Do you have any latinum? With you saying that nothing weird happened last Night, surely it didn't affect you since you imply you have no latinum stuff?
I used an ability last night. I got a result from the mod. Nothing odd occurred according to my result.
@Cythare (and anyone else who's asked my opinion of TS): Did you ever read the Mafia vs Werewolves game? Compare the TS meltdown there to the TS meltdown here. Almost identical. I know meta is not a 100% accurate measurement but I don't see scum!TS replicating that same level of anger and hypocrisy. This is town TS through and through.
Sorry, I am here, been a rough couple of days. Two year old got a horrible stomach bug on the weekend, and yesterday my wife caught it. Barely keeping up with my other game and this one has been racing along at one hell of a clip.
Quote from Brinatoo »
@DoT: Do you have any latinum? With you saying that nothing weird happened last Night, surely it didn't affect you since you imply you have no latinum stuff?
I used an ability last night. I got a result from the mod. Nothing odd occurred according to my result.
@Cythare (and anyone else who's asked my opinion of TS): Did you ever read the Mafia vs Werewolves game? Compare the TS meltdown there to the TS meltdown here. Almost identical. I know meta is not a 100% accurate measurement but I don't see scum!TS replicating that same level of anger and hypocrisy. This is town TS through and through.
DOTA-Go ahead and take a look at Tom. He says he's playing experimentally today and trying new things. The last time I remember him saying that was when he was in Stargate and I flushed him out. He was SCUM. I'll go back to Stargate and find the posts but a lot of things are starting to match up between that game and this game.
That I can agree with. I don't think it's alignment indicative either. I do think he meant something different the first time he said it. And he has tried to justify it. But as it's not alignment indicative I'm fine with letting it rest here.
But I'm glad we've all agreed to drop it.
Second looking at him as town or neutral?
Third, who would I place a red ball in front of in the rest of the group, not including Tapping?
Will get to these when I can today.
Mind you I'm still trying to get a hold of Tom's motivations through his stream of consciousness style posting... Hard to feel out his motivation.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
TS I get it man.
You replaced into a long game and you have a lot to go through. Great, cool. Thanks.
Now that that is out of the way, you're still a player like anyone else and subject to everything every other player is subject to in this game.
My opinions were made in the thread long ago concerning Fable. But let's start at the beginning. As I said, you complained about the amount of posts in the thread and asked for a summary of which you got a very quick, dirty run down of what had occurred. That gives you some context. Later, you make another post about how a lot of what we're saying is context heavy so you'll have to go back to the OP/something and trudge through the thread. Alright, fair enough. You then make a post about how a post of yours got eaten. Alright. Immediately after you start quoting posts from Fable (first post was #574). How many pages is that from the OP and stuff that happened right away at the start of the game?
Let's stop there since there's four points to make now. First, let's start with the last sentence of the above paragraph. You mean to tell me that for your game analysis, where you intended to go back to the OP and read up, you just decided to skip like the first 5 pages of the game? It is 5 pages at 50 posts per page I believe. Never mind, I just checked the quote from Fable to be sure. You started on page 12. So you didn't start from the OP as best as I can tell. You just dug through a post from Fable and gave reads drawn from interpreting Fable's post. You also jump far enough ahead to acknowledge Chris's flip which means you must be aware of Fable's flip and how he flipped (outing himself). So what else did you "not comment on"? The Kosa situation. Points made by Half against TS. Interaction of other players vs other players (like myself against TS as an example from the early pages of the thread that you skipped over). So when we get right down to it, you're exhibiting a tendency to skip over vast amounts of interactions. And you call it doubt casting for me stating it is interesting that you immediately went to posts from Fable and started drawing connections? Please.
Second, concerning Fable's flip you're aware that he got himself killed. So why is it you're drawing faulty connections from his posts as opposed to looking at other players interacting with him? For example, refer to a post where Half talks about how TS dropped an argument entirely once Fable had claimed scum and never bothered to pick up where he left off in the argument either before Fable was lynched or later into today where it was brought up again by Half to showcase how TS was acting in a nontowny manner by doing this. One thing that got argued a lot was how useful Fable's posts would be. A big pusher of the whole Fable's posts wont' yield anything are myself and Half while others who argued against this were Mind, TS, and DV (Mind making arguments not to throw out information, TS making arguments like "look back at how I interacted with Fable. That makes me town", and DV barning at some point). You're obviously putting stock into Fable's word since you are using them to draw such conclusions as "town lean on TS". Oh right, you mention a control with a post on how Fable reacted to Sir Chris. How does that work exactly? You know Fable flipped scum, and you know Chris flipped town. So you're using the feel of that post from Fable to judge Fable's interaction with other players and judge them based on that? Isn't that faulty since you're talking about entirely different players? Or are you just assuming? Because it looks like you are assuming.
Third, the "points" you make are not worth addressing in the post. If anything how I responded to you was perfectly legit. I cite an interest in how you are viewing/doing things. You, oh so directly, ask me to be direct since you allude to me doubt casting (as I noted in a response to you that says a lot about your perspective of my response to you). So I oblige and directly state my opinions concerning your post which questions your intent (based on previous stuff mentioned above).
Final point. Spare me the emotion spew. As I said you are like any other player in this game. Your overreaction here to my stance against you helps nothing. Sitting there and going, "Oh you should get on your knees and thank the stars I'm even here," as if to say I shouldn't be sitting here questioning which is ***NOT*** what Mafia is about at all. You dislike that I'm questioning you. Great. Deal with it. Get over it. Mafia is a game that contains hostility at times since it centers around discussing/arguing with other people. To end the point though, your outburst that threatens me the way it does (because I'm the only one actively questioning you in a hard way so you were intending that to be aimed at me) comes off as nothing more than scummy given everything else that I've seen concerning your limited interactions/views thus far into the game. I've already seen someone go off the bars with emotion in many outbursts. You acting this way isn't going to deter me from playing the game against you or anyone else. Have some scum points for all you've done.
Quote where I barned that argument.
Lets not waste his time defending himself from arguments we can't get ***** out of. Lets get his reads on TS, D_V, Tom, Me, You, and Silver. I want the same question answered by Necarg, DoTA, Kosa, and KillJoy. After that, you guys can have all the silly bull***** fights you want. But right now, this is a distraction
Then we can figure out the most likely scum to lynch, and get ready to investigate these stances in the light of new information.
Unless you think Citric is the best lynch now, and everyone is going to change their minds this late. I think we'd need another scumclaim for that to happen, honestly. Tom, you want to help us out?
Concerning the comments about respecting a replacement -
What exactly does that mean? Don't question a lurker or develop ideas off of what they are saying? As far as I'm concerned the only one who has a need to learn what respect means in this thread is you for all the crap you've spewed flailing. Something I think you and others have referred to as "burning bridges". At no point have I assaulted who Citric is as a person. I don't even know him, but that doesn't mean I can't sit here and assess what he says. I can and will say what I'm thinking on what he or any other person says much to his chagrin.
Off topic philosophy:
@TS: The scary thought of Citric subbing right out due to interacting with me - If he does that, that's all him. As I stated in my post to him in my last point, he's subject to everything every other player is subject to. Him replacing in means little to me other than him pulling out his "replacement" card and throwing that out there as if that is supposed to curb discussion.
Or, to be more blunt, he asked for me to be direct. I gave him direct and he overreacted. I don't care who you are. You don't ask for something, get it, then complain in the manner he has. It's not townie in any sense.
So you going to answer the now two questions I have of you or are you content to just make things up and bulldoze past.
Apparently it is a byproduct of me disliking what he's saying. I've already shown he has a tendency to skip over a lot of content so I'm not surprised if he gets "distracted" with other things. How Citric responds to me is on him though. It's not my job to "contain" how I respond to him for his sake.
Point - Citric already gave some reads on some players that goes up as far as the end of D1 from the looks of it. Course, and funny enough, he's making some of these reads (ex. TS) based off of Fable's words. To his credit (ex again TS), he's asking for opinions on it (and mine should be pretty obvious for drawing conclusions based on Fable). I take it you are aware of his cursory stances to the players he's mentioned thus far?
What two questions? Other than the quote where you barned that argument. I saw you say that.
Example two being in: "I don't care who you are. You don't ask for something, get it, then complain in the manner he has. It's not townie in any sense." No, it has NOTHING to do with ******* alignment. It has to do with not being a ******* dick. But again you're deciding to completely mix alignment with how you're treating another player in the game.
In the future, I'm going to just 100% avoid any game where I will ever have to deal with you being in the game as well. That time has past for this game, because I'm not sending the mod off to find another replacement when he's already had to find so many, so I'm going to proceed to completely ignore your posts for the forseeable future, so have fun talking to yourself
What quote where I barned what argument?
Please go back and give context.
I didn't ever agree with that argument by tapping ever.
I guess the other one would be how I am misrepresenting Silver.
I understand what he was attempting to say now that we have discussed it, but he is wrong on his statistics that is not a misrepresentation of silver.
@Everyone else + mods
Sorry for injecting my own drama into the game. I'm going to do my best to drop it and not speak to KoD if I have to in order to avoid filling the thread with stupid drama of my own
DO NOT DISCUSS OTHER ACTIVE GAMES OUTSIDE THEIR GAME THREADS/MOD-APPROVED CHANNELS. I can't stress this enough, DO NOT DISCUSS OTHER GAMES IN PROGRESS. This violates both forum rules and game rules. There will be no further warnings.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
This is the closest I could find of you "barning" the argument. My representation of you in my otherwise terse description of the events may be oversimplified, but as far as the argument goes you have given grief to both Half and I over the whole ignoring Fable's posts due to WIFOM. We've argued this at length already in the thread, but what it comes down to is some of us (Half and myself) think it is useless to consider Fable's posts as you won't draw anything useful from them (many examples were given: interactions with TS and myself from Fable for example). Instead we said it is more useful to focus on how others responded to Fable or acted towards him (ex. Half's post concerning how TS acted once Fable had claimed which paints his actions in a nontownie manner). You, on the other hand, are seemingly treating it as a package deal, that looking at others requires looking at Fable's posts too.
Also, major note to make. I reread what you quoted and I get the impression you are thinking I'm saying you barned how TS stated his interactions with Fable make him town. That's not what I said, and is evident with how I separated each point concerning Mind, TS, and you with commas to indicate as such. The whole point was wrt to dealing with Fable's posts. Mind thinks it is useful. TS, too, thinks it is useful. You, too, think it is useful as given by your stance in arguing against TS and I (again me saying barning is not accurate unless I deal in absolutes in that you sided with that argument thus barning).
Savvy?
I understand you feel heated; however, that's no reason for you to call me a dick and make it personal. As you've stated, you've been in many mafia games. You should know the nature of the games. I've not made any personal attacks on you to warrant a personal attack. My responses and views of you are well within operating to play the game. You are neglecting this though in order to react in a way that TS has acted at multiple points during the course of this game. In a strict sense, I feel anything goes in mafia. If the mods feel how TS and you are acting is acceptable (with the personal attacks), then obviously how I am reacting to you is definitely within game parameters in being extremely critical of you per my own viewpoints.
Get off your high horse and cry less about how I'm responding to you. Making such attacks against me doesn't paint you in any sort of town light whatsoever. Act like a townie if you're a townie. Or don't and continue to act scummy.
That's not clear at all.
The way that sentence reads is that I barned the TS statement that his interactions with Fable made him town.
Nobody would read that any other way.
But ok then.
I'm not in any big hurry, myself, though I think I've said everything I have to say for the moment. Take your time.
With the way you quoted it, yeah, of course it doesn't read that way.
There's the full sentence. Notice how it starts off talking about Fable's posts and how they won't yield anything and continues on to list three names followed by parentheses and explanations for each name. Notice, too, the commas which separate each explanation. In short, the reason for TS is not connected to the reason for you. You're just misreading it.
I think we have to forms of miscommunication on my part.
I don't think I made my position on Fable that clear. I think there are some grains of truth to be taken out of Fable's post not everything is going to be WIFOM and such.
But more importantly I think the interaction of other players to Fable is very valuable. Now I am not saying that it clears TS, but I do feel that it leads to the idea that he is actually town. While other players straight up ignored saying anything on the matter, which to me is scummy because I feel that scum overall wouldn't know how to react genuinely to Fable's play
Yeah ok I see what you mean I was taking it as a possessive It and the last thing mentioned in the sentence was TS's statement. So that became to me what I was barning and not the original Idea. Gotchu.
Be honest, what did we get out of the last 5 or 6 posts between you guys? I don't see anything relevant to mafia. Except you can both insult each other, and you both played lots of mafia.
So all Citric's energy has now gone into attacking/defending against/responding to you. Which doesn't help me figure out how he's viewing the game at all. It doesn't help me figure out anything, other than he doesn't like you. Which isn't alignment indicative
I said give him space so that he can get in a re-read, and get his *mafia* opinions on record, and then we can move forward. Question him about the game? Sure. But this was tangential, and provocative, for no benefit.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Paraphrase if you don't want to outright quote.
@Annorax: Will do my part to. *Pushes away keyboard labled KoD's buttons.*
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
I like H_T. I don't agree with the theory that he's just acting like a moderator in order to appear townie and not solve the game.
I don't like TS. IMO, everything that was said regarding the possibility of him being town (role, interations with Fable, attitude towards H_T, etc) is WIFOM except maybe Fable's vote on him early on. That's literally the only thing giving my pause on his alignment.
I also don't like D_V, but he's less likely to be scum if TS is.
Unsure of Tom. The jump on H_T seemed like he just wanted to lynch the current wagon, whichever it was. Aside that, hard to read.
I like you better Day 2 than I did Day 1. Still, IGMEOY.
I like KoD for no particular reason. To me, just seems like he's contributing with the game and passes me a general townie image.
Same with Silver.
They've both been prodded.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
It sure as hell is helping me. You've already seen me assess his post and reactions (none of which scream town to me). How about we take a different approach? Let's do a light hearted, general comparison.
Let's consider Wheat, Brin, and Tom. Now in the interest of being fair, Brin only had something like 150 posts to look at compared to the mess Citric has to look at; however, when someone decides to start at the OP (Citric), I expect actually looking at stuff that occurred, you know, on the first 10 pages. Or even the first 5.
Brin got involved with saying he skipped over the rvs ending and my argument with Chris, but he ends up showing notes he was making while progressing through page 2. Compare this with Citric who says he'll go to the OP (I assume opening post to start from there - the beginning) and ends up skipping literally 10 pages worth of stuff (if you want to forget the rvs, there are still other things like all the opinions about Kosa as the foremost example that he never touched on).
Both Wheat and Tom essentially started at the same time. Some time during July 11th. When they replaced in it was near the beginning of page 9 (about 400 posts into the game). Certainly a bit more than Brin for both of them, but nowhere near the amount that Citric has to go through. I acknowledge that. Either way, both Tom and Wheat end up commenting on stuff from near the beginning of the game thread via a lot of skimming that I can see (I went back to where they replaced in and have been skimming for their posts). Tom presented a strong posting presence after replacing in, and Wheat ends up catching up after Tom's numerous posts. Both of them comment on past thread stuff with short opinions and some more in depth ones where applicable (I saw a rainbow wall Tom gave with what looked like pairs). I had to scan more for posts from Wheat, but Wheat gets more involved after his initial postings on page 11 (post #503) showing he is definitely rereading beginnings of the thread.
Point of all this is that some players started playing at somewhat high post lvls and still managed to showcase attention to what has occurred before in some way. That's the difference between them and Citric. Citric skipped over all that crap and got into later stuff without regard to earlier stuff (focused on drawing conclusions from Fable's posts). Already that doesn't sit as townie to me since we've already had some players show attempts at this even if they did just skim. But skipping 10 pages worth? All he's doing is getting involved to be involved as opposed to being like Rhand who was involved, but apparently couldn't/didn't keep up enough making it harder to continue. And that comes off as suspicious on its own (from Rhand) which just makes me think Citric got the raw end of the deal here (as I can honestly see him as scum from my perspective).
Final final point, I'm certainly using my interactions to draw conclusions. It does help even if you think it doesn't. Oh and one more thing about Citric, after being pressured by me when he asked for it, his response was in-line with how TS acted on the emotional side. His appeal to me, rather than my questions concerning his mindset, was one of I should be thankful he's even playing and that I'm just a jerk. Followed up later with a complete ignore on me so he doesn't have to address what I'm saying (which is grounded in the game so he's not excused at all, but he wants to be which *again* doesn't come off as town).
You asked Tom about DoTA due to Tom thinking DoTA is scum at one point. Did you even notice how I called out DoTA for his sparse case against Mongoose that could essentially be pot-kettle? Why are you interested in Tom thinking of DoTA being scum from back then now and not others like me or Half (I believe Half nodded at my case against DoTA)?
The point is why does he feel scum!Dota is going after what he felt back then was a town!Tapping. A lot of things are left unexplained in his posts that I'm having trouble getting into Tom's mind. Hard to get a read on on a Seppel/ISO/you level.
Hoping the answer might give a little insight.
Will take a look at the weak Mongoose case see if that turns up anything useful.
Plus don't mind the pressure. Keeps me invested.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Pretty sure that's why KoD was asking him to explain his mindset, to which cit became very defensive rather than just explain his thought process. While this exchange does not explain cit's mindset, it is the first piece of information we have towards reading cit and that's hardly irrelevant.
@cyth, I read your question to those not voting TS as "if you're leaning town or null on TS, then who are you scum leaning?" Is this correct?
Will finish up on Tom in the am.
@Shock: I bet it keeps you invested. How better to contribute than by having someone to talk to instead of putting together content yourself?
Nobody cares about your crappy theory. Many strong players catch scum based on flip scum's interactions. We use their words all the time. If you are too dense to know about this strategy then that's your problem. You are a toxic player and I assuredly would never sign up for a game where I saw your name present/ Not only do lack even a basic understanding of logic you also refuse to see yourself being wrong in any scenario. Nobody wants to deal with you. This is the last post I respond to you for the remainder of the game, consider yourself on honorary ignore.
On a serious note, that's not a theory. That's a perspective on the game play based on a reasonable assertion due to the nature of Fable's posts which has been showcased through examples. Come to think of it you even gave a faulty example about how your interactions with Fable make you town.
On a less serious note, I do believe I have found the pot to my kettle.
@shock can you point me where i said that and ill try to remember?
ill be very interested to see these cases on me.
im definitely playing an experimental style this game.
not getting as involved as usual.
i had a realization that my initial reactions/gut reads are far better than when i try to do research and make cases.
see getting proph mislynched day 1 in twinborn, or knowing matowar was town in off the grid but talking myself out of it.
so yeah. maybe make a cursory mention of that in your cases. if you feel like.
either way. that seems like a problem for tomorrow. cuz this lynch is happening.
I used an ability last night. I got a result from the mod. Nothing odd occurred according to my result.
@Cythare (and anyone else who's asked my opinion of TS): Did you ever read the Mafia vs Werewolves game? Compare the TS meltdown there to the TS meltdown here. Almost identical. I know meta is not a 100% accurate measurement but I don't see scum!TS replicating that same level of anger and hypocrisy. This is town TS through and through.
DOTA-Go ahead and take a look at Tom. He says he's playing experimentally today and trying new things. The last time I remember him saying that was when he was in Stargate and I flushed him out. He was SCUM. I'll go back to Stargate and find the posts but a lot of things are starting to match up between that game and this game.
Also, not necessarily needed mind you, curious if there is a story between you and CitricBase from an earlier game? A finished one hopefully.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
I've only ever seen you dank post. You sure that's new?