I feel like that linked post is the reasonable townie amount of "Here's why no-lynch is stupid, why are you even suggesting it?"
This game's felt more "I know I'm supposed to think that no-lynch is stupid, and here's a smorgasboard of reasons why. But a smart player I have TMI is town is suggesting it, and I don't want to fight him".
ok, heres my theory for mindreavers thoughts:
it seems dumb to him, and the suggester a ponce
but its been brought up each time he signs up to play
so hes starting to think it might be okay
but he doesnt see why, and he wants us to tell him
and no one explained, and its looking quite grim
W
Mal I'm townreading at the moment. I like his analysis of you and of GJ. He has some good points and seems engaged in the game. I am taking his read of you seriously though, and I can't tell if your second response to his friend question was what he was trying to trap you in.
I was leaning towards him not wanting to try to tussle with me, but to go after the easier target.
Because I'm having a hard time squaring his lack of response to me with how self-conscious he was about Rhand. Sure, at that point I hadn't actually given reasons, so he didn't have anything to argue against, but even so . . .
Thanks tom, I think this was useful, regardless of your alignment. But I really do need to sleep now. Feel free to leave something for me to respond to in the morning.
i think ninety four, was quite worth ignoring
any response would just have been roaring
scum is more likely to take that bait
but as town: for your reasons he might as well wait
*raises hand* I'm curious what the motivation is. I also don't quite understand why it's rationally a good or bad idea in this setup. I'm not in favor of a no lynch, but that's just because we're 12 days or something from the actual deadline, and I'd like to think we'd have a good guess at that point. I'm also pretty bloodthirsty day 1 apparently. I like the info it gives on day two, especially if we have lots of interaction day 1.
"Just because we're 12 days away" So he would be in favor of no-lynch if we only had 48 hour phases? But then:
"I like the info it gives on day two" Nope, he should always be against it then.
"I'm also pretty bloodthirsty day 1 apparently" No, you're just playing the game.
To clarify a few things:
1) The beginning part is written that way because it's in response to GJ's semi-attack on Vaimes where he's saying "You should KNOW the reason why a no-lynch is bad". As if it was obvious. I legitimately didn't understand why it'd be bad from a setup perspective, and was a little self conscious that I should have (turns out though, that other more experienced players were also confused so I didn't really need to feel that way). GJ's explanation was much appreciated in that regard (I hadn't considered that no investigative roles were possible).
2) "I like the info it gives on day two". I meant the lynch gives us information for day two. Having somebody flip after lots of interaction is the info I'm talking about. That wasn't clear on a re-read.
3) "I'm also pretty bloodthirsty day 1 apparently" and "just because we're 12 days away". I'm going to be against a no-lynch in 99% of situations, hence the bloodthirsty comment. In this setup, where we have to explicitly vote no-lynch (instead of other setups where we might default to no-lynch if the threshold isn't reached), I might be in favor if we were up against a deadline, and the lynch target was only at 3 votes OR was being selected as "the first person to get to that total". The 12 days away thing is just that the deadline for those conditions is pretty far off. If this was 48 hour phases, we'd reach those conditions quickly.
Well, Tom's gonna have a hard time with that one I recently started playing mafia, so I only have one completed game (Twinborn). Where I was town.
I'm having a tough time reading Tom, and it's mostly because of the rhymes. Half the time I don't know if the phrasing is scummy, or it just fit the rhyme better.
Mal I'm townreading at the moment. I like his analysis of you and of GJ. He has some good points and seems engaged in the game. I am taking his read of you seriously though, and I can't tell if your second response to his friend question was what he was trying to trap you in.
You, I'm null on. Mal says you're town. KJ also had a point on evasiveness. But I just haven't made up my mind, even with your posting frequency closer to my own. Let me ask you this. Have you caught any scum yet?
KJ, I'm very suspicious of. I'm taking a hard look at him, and was in the middle of a re-read when I got sidetracked by Rhand. If you twisted my arm right now, I'd say Rhand/KJ would be my scum team.
A little nervous about Citric. I'm like to see more posting from him.
Nervous as in ???
Nervous as in, I'm getting very focused on active posters and you're lurking. Lurkers always make me nervous that I'm not paying as much attention to them as I should.
p.s. You've done more posting since I wrote that, so thank you.
I was leaning towards him not wanting to try to tussle with me, but to go after the easier target.
Because I'm having a hard time squaring his lack of response to me with how self-conscious he was about Rhand. Sure, at that point I hadn't actually given reasons, so he didn't have anything to argue against, but even so . . .
Well, I wouldn't classify Rhand as an easier target
Anyway, the difference is, I don't mind being considered on a list of suspects. That's natural. "I'm looking at GJ then Mind" doesn't ping me the same way as "Mindreaver is scum, Vote Mindreaver" does. I post a lot. I am relatively new to the game. I've never played with you before. So, I probably should be on your list. Which is okay, I assume I'll learn why eventually (now maybe?).
Then, hinge off that into a thought on mindreaver's #66.
you should look at this post, from his first game
where i brought up no lynch, and he reacted the same
i feel pretty good, about that big three
well win for sure with you guys and me
but if i am wrong, especially about vaimes
this could be less fun and games
Unless you see me and Mallorean both dying N1/N2, I strongly doubt you'll have to worry about a sneaky Vaimes. There's no way he can think he can end-game with town as scum in this game
Well, Tom's gonna have a hard time with that one I recently started playing mafia, so I only have one completed game (Twinborn). Where I was town.
I'm having a tough time reading Tom, and it's mostly because of the rhymes. Half the time I don't know if the phrasing is scummy, or it just fit the rhyme better.
Mal I'm townreading at the moment. I like his analysis of you and of GJ. He has some good points and seems engaged in the game. I am taking his read of you seriously though, and I can't tell if your second response to his friend question was what he was trying to trap you in.
You, I'm null on. Mal says you're town. KJ also had a point on evasiveness. But I just haven't made up my mind, even with your posting frequency closer to my own. Let me ask you this. Have you caught any scum yet?
KJ, I'm very suspicious of. I'm taking a hard look at him, and was in the middle of a re-read when I got sidetracked by Rhand. If you twisted my arm right now, I'd say Rhand/KJ would be my scum team.
A little nervous about Citric. I'm like to see more posting from him.
Nervous as in ???
Nervous as in, I'm getting very focused on active posters and you're lurking. Lurkers always make me nervous that I'm not paying as much attention to them as I should.
p.s. You've done more posting since I wrote that, so thank you.
Ah, I was interpreting it as moderately scared of me after Ace Attorney, though I guess that's also me blowing some of my play out of proportion. Question, what's your mafia experience? Other games here or other sites? Mind linking a town/scum games of yours if they exist?
@Matowar is probably due for a ping @DotArchon
@Gentleman_Johnny and @Killjoy, why don't you guys have votes placed (serious question)?
congrats vaimes, im happy for you
a T/S list in verse is not a thing i can do
so here it is, with no rhyming in sight
the game's in the bag if im even half right
Town: vaimes, thug, mind
Lean Town: citric, kj
Lean Scum: mato, johnny
Scum: rhand
There's no time to learn like the present. And at the current pace, we won't see more of you as the game goes on, because you're going to get PoE'd. Ignore the setup for now and actually talk to people.
Specufically, could you ask a question to at least 2 other players that aren't me? The sharper the question, the more points you get.
So, I probably should be on your list. Which is okay, I assume I'll learn why eventually (now maybe?).
If you can't figure out why I thought you were newb!scum from my wall and conversation with Tom, I can't help you.
That said, the detail I was missing previously was that you got mislynched by scum day2 of your only game. That puts your reponse to Rhand in a slightly different perspective. That's actually enough that I'm comfortable moving over here for now:
Day1 Vote Matowar77
Since phases are so long, I'll probably at least glance through that game rather just take you/Tom at your words, but this is fine for now.
Here's a protip based on what I think is currently keeping you from being max useful: Day1 can often be more about hunting for town than hunting for scum. And it's the only day when everybody is alive. Interactions and votes are king because we can look back at them on later days when we have more info to solve the game. And if you think the scumteam is afk, you can work on forming/strengthening your townreads to make their life far more difficult when they do get back.
My apologies for my lack of performance. I am working on the trasnsition from the normal school year to the summer school semester. I should have my plans in order and be more active on the weekend.
While I initially claimed Vaimes was lean scum for not having a sense of humor with the whole "DotA is scum with Rhand" joke, on this reread I noticed this:
which itself shows lack of seriousness in general, and more importantly a lack of self-awareness.
Another thing was looking for on this reread is weak justification for pushing against me, or justification that can be easily explained away (a point I was making when I jumped on him for only commiting 10% to his vote). Here he explains why he voted me:
I know you haven't voted me yet. But you also said I could be scum, so I invited you to vote for me.
It was still 90% an RVS-ish vote. The 10% was because I find joking about the mod being scum to be a suuuper light scumtell, since it completely avoids potentially talking about other players. I made a vote that was both silly and also had the potential to be serious, depending on what happened next. I thought your reaction to the first (and only) vote on you was weird, and it looked like you were asking tom to elaborate on his math that doesn't actually accomplish anything.
20% is probably better than your 0% vote on Rhand! Also I don't know why we're acting like these numbers are concrete.
His reason was that joking the mod beign scum is a light scumtell because it potentially avoids talking about other people, and that I reacted weirdly to the first/only vote on me, and asking tom about the math doesn't actually do anything.The first thing is a variation of voting the mod, which is a light scumtell. The second is a variation of the 'overreacting to the first vote on you' scumtell. The third is the 'busywork' scumtell.
His reasoning here is not terrible. It doesn't leave him a lot of wiggleroom. Here, he's committing to his read.
In response to my point that his 10% vote being a cop out and weak (as I was looking for above):
There is no cop out, because I'm not going to argue against anyone using the vote to analyze in the future. My mindset when placing that vote was "eh, this is a teeny thing I don't like, but it's probably not worth completely breaking out of RVS over."
But okay. I won't try to have it both ways. For the purposes of preventing us from arguing over this and cluttering the thread, it can be treated as a serious vote.
This is not a scum response, IMO. Scum would not make this argument because of how bad it is in terms of proving himself. "I wouldn't do that" only ever prompts the response of "We can't know that." which a scum would know. It doesn't make him seem less scummy, or more townie. It accomplishes little from a scum perspective.
As scum, I try harder to give people what they want when I'm pressured. My jokes are more forced or self-conscious sounding. I have a much harder time crafting cases against people because I know they're town. I reflexively bus under pressure because I know my buddies are scum and I want to look good for pushing them.
Those are probabaly the most obvious tells.
I am putting a fair bit of weight on this. I've found that scum, when asked what their scumtells are, are really bad at manufacturing tells that do not currently apply to them.
So. I'm now pretty sure Vaimes is town. This makes me wonder about Rhand.
@Citric: Because I haven't necessarily found scum yet. Rhand might be but he hasn't posted much. I also had a thought about Mindreaver being scum but nothing concrete.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So. I'm now pretty sure Vaimes is town. This makes me wonder about Rhand.
Let's all remember that "Vaimes and Rhand are anti-aligned" does NOT mean "There is exactly one scum between Vaimes and Rhand".
That said, in context, Killjoy's statement is fine, while Matowar's statement is not.
Killjoy didn't need to think about Rhand while he was thinking about Vaimes. And he specifically acknowledged and agreed with the stated anti-alignment. So after changing his mind on Vaimes, he'd need to actually look at Rhand. All's good here.
Matowar, however, is misrembering, misunderstanding, or purposefully misrepresenting the thread. And he's using that to imply that if he's townreading Vaimes he /has/ to scumread Rhand. Additionally, that post also say's that he's happy to be past the Vaimes/Killjoy thing, but his vote isn't past it. @Matowar, please move your vote, or at least specifically state where you vote would be if you weren't withholding it for hammer reasons.
I really need rhand to post some stuff
Lynching the silence would be pretty rough
My other two choices are mostly the same
So i am happy pressing pause on this game
I guess I'm interested in what everyone else is posting, but have no reason to post myself aside from to look town which is usually considered a scum move :S I know who I consider town and who I'm wary of but have no reason to post who and why as I'll be giving less information to scum later when I use prior information to take down bad wagons/lynch choices. Ace Attorney will probably help you, as will Prisoner's mafia. I tend to deal with things better once there is a certainty I can extrapolate from. Trying to look from 16 different possible points of view takes a long time and when a good number of them are wrong feels like a waste. I prefer to just sit back and wait for something to break and work everything I can off that
Would you agree that the rest of us have no reason to accept you not posting? While it might not be in your narrowly defined self-interest to share your reads if you're town, surely you can see that its actively against the interest of town as a whole to allow you to do that because you could be scum. I find watching a player's reads progression is very helpful for figuring out their alignment, and forcing people to publicly state reads makes it much harder for scum to show up later with the "correct" reads for the situation.
I'd suggest you actually play Day1, because at your current trajectory, I don't plan to let you live to Day2.
Though I feel like everyone of your posts are impactful in some way which is an oddity looking at most players on this forum, I only have 5/9 players on 45% reads and the other 4 are even less than that.
I don't understand this sentence at all. Please elaborate.
At this point I'd join a matowar wagon
But really I hope his feet will stop draggin'
I would normally like his paranoia of us
But it doesn't seem real, faking mistrust
If he really thought, that we two were scum
He'd be asking questions, not sucking his thumb
Also, I'm not going to clear him for something as trivial as that. But it was and is a great starting point. Meta can be toxic, but, uh, it works
Only when you are not completely wrong :). And assumes the other person isn't aware of certain tells they give off.
I was /voting/ you. That I found you to have been the scummiest poster at the time shouldn't be new news. I do care about how you respond to me, and I trust that a little bit of pressure and an honest opinion won't keep you from responding in a useful way.
I am going to use Citric's example of how you overblew my interaction with Vaimes. Tell me though, why would you not wait to see how our little interaction played out, rather than come at meand call it out?
Hmm, so GJ tries to do some weird different gambit/experiement every game to test reactions and make it hard to read him?
I think tom meant I am more polite. I am actually a cold hearted manipulative bastard and my politeness is more Hannibal Lector, rather than John Burgoyne, but he gets the point.
Quote from Mindreaver »
1) The beginning part is written that way because it's in response to GJ's semi-attack on Vaimes where he's saying "You should KNOW the reason why a no-lynch is bad". As if it was obvious. I legitimately didn't understand why it'd be bad from a setup perspective, and was a little self conscious that I should have (turns out though, that other more experienced players were also confused so I didn't really need to feel that way). GJ's explanation was much appreciated in that regard (I hadn't considered that no investigative roles were possible).
Micros have become a thing more frequently, and as such, so have open/semi-open set-ups. Aside from pleasantly shorter games, it also means that people should be speculating if there is an action(s) that can help the town. The last micro, no lynch ended up being correct. There may be set-ups were day 1 mass claims, or other actions may be optimal, and am surprised no one thought that a semi-open set up like this one might create some....interesting circumstances.
Quote from Citric »
why don't you guys have votes placed (serious question)?
I don't have any scum reads, really. I feel pretty good right now about Seppel 2.0 and MThug (MT) for town, but the rest are questions. I am working on relieving that.
My Experience such as it is:
As Town: Twinborn (super cool note. The comment that got me lynched day 2, I was completely right about, check scumchat.)
As Scum: None Frown[/quote]
As the mod for that game, I would have done the same if a townie had that issue.
Quote from tomsloger »
Scum: rhand
Why Rhand? Maybe break the poems, as deciphering them has been a bit of a pain in the ass.
Quote from matowar »
Hmm I could've sworn I posted twice but my internet must have been shaky :S Ah well I guess we've thankfully gotten past the Vaimes Killjoy interaction. Even if we weren't to meta here Johnny is feeling lurky and uninterested.
Joining a second game, with several of the same players was likely a mistake, especially in my transition period. I have no intention of quitting, but I find my resoures scattered, and often clashing, due to similarities (note, not mentioning specifics).
Quote from MT »
Two of [GentlemanJohnny, Killjoy, Vaimes] should definitely join me on Matowar.
I guess I'm interested in what everyone else is posting, but have no reason to post myself aside from to look town which is usually considered a scum move :S I know who I consider town and who I'm wary of but have no reason to post who and why as I'll be giving less information to scum later when I use prior information to take down bad wagons/lynch choices. Ace Attorney will probably help you, as will Prisoner's mafia. I tend to deal with things better once there is a certainty I can extrapolate from. Trying to look from 16 different possible points of view takes a long time and when a good number of them are wrong feels like a waste. I prefer to just sit back and wait for something to break and work everything I can off that Though I feel like everyone of your posts are impactful in some way which is an oddity looking at most players on this forum, I only have 5/9 players on 45% reads and the other 4 are even less than that.
I would like to know what mindreaver and citric are currently reading tom and MT as. Mainly just to see if I'm alone in my tinfoil hat club
Matowar, can you explain why not posting who you think is town is useful? Like why is that helpful? If you bring up who you think is town and why, it allows other players like me to give some feedback on your thoughts. Even if scum step in and try to convince you out of your townreads or something, that will be saved in the posting history and it will probably be noticeable for solving the game later on. You also realize that you make it very hard for us to delineate your alignment when you decide to hold all your cards close to chest.
A lot of solving the game comes from behavioral analysis. The more 'stuff' that happens, the more 'behavior' that can be analyzed for things that we don't think someone could fake as scum, connections between players, awkward interactions that we don't think 2 scum players could have had, etc.
I literally didn't even realize that you're ?scum-reading? Mallorean until this post. What about Mallorean puts you in a tinfoil hat club for him?
Right now I feel pretty good about Tom. I think the rhyming thing makes me read him more townish, contrary to how others are interpreting it, but even removing that I feel fairly good about him. Mallorean, I feel good about as well, primarily because he's trying to drive the game forwards especially with noone else helping spur it on in a pretty organic way (trying to spur discussion, rather than shoving reads down people's throats)
I actually think my poems are quite clear
You just have to read them closely, my dear
My case on rhand was my very best one
Post 120 is when it was done
The rhyme is impressive, but so was the read
I can't see townrhand doing that deed
Two reads like that, the whole damn solution
But he doesn't even look for signs of collusion
Citric I'm glad you have me as town
But my rhyming means nothing except I'm a clown
So, I've been reevaluating my read on Vaimes. @Citric: Because I haven't necessarily found scum yet. Rhand might be but he hasn't posted much. I also had a thought about Mindreaver being scum but nothing concrete.
Because the vote is one of the most powerful tools we have? Because it causes reactions and stuff when wagons build up? Because it wastes a lot of the day to not use it?
I don't think anyone professes to have the scum-team pinned down (except in jest). All you really did in your last post is shift your read on Vaimes towards more likely to be town (which is the strong thread-consensus, at least amongst the more active posters). How is that getting you closer to figuring out any of the scum? What's your PoE at right now? Or what's your method of solving a mafia game?
Quote from Citric »
why don't you guys have votes placed (serious question)?
I don't have any scum reads, really. I feel pretty good right now about Seppel 2.0 and MThug (MT) for town, but the rest are questions. I am working on relieving that.
My Experience such as it is:
As Town: Twinborn (super cool note. The comment that got me lynched day 2, I was completely right about, check scumchat.)
As Scum: None Frown
Ditto everything I just said to Killjoy. Who are you referring to as Seppel 2.0? Why do you read them as town? Why do you read Mallorean as town? Is everyone else null (no read) or null (neutral read)? I didn't pay too much attention to you early in Ace Attorney because you turned out to be a spectacular distraction, but I feel like you were a /little/ more vocal (assertive? dominating?) then you've been thus far
I am going to use Citric's example of how you overblew my interaction with Vaimes. Tell me though, why would you not wait to see how our little interaction played out, rather than come at meand call it out?
I didn't think that letting it play out would do anything useful. I /did/ think that calling you out would do something useful. Alas, your quantity of posts hasn't made it the most productive thing, but I still think it was worth doing.
am surprised no one thought that a semi-open set up like this one might create some....interesting circumstances.
You're aware that this isn't a novel setup, right? Like, other sites have run tons of games like this, some with this exact grid. I'm surprised you're wasting time trying to reinvent the wheel.
[quote from="Gentleman Johnny »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/703166-off-the-grid-mafia-day-1?comment=185"]
Why not? I'm fine if you refuse, but only if you actually do something with your vote yourself. Continuing to abstain is anti-town.
Ugg, should always hit the preview button. Where the heck is my WYSIWYG editor? (If there's actually a way to enable that, I'll love you forever if you tell me how.)
I just reread to GJ's 34 where he explains why proposing no lynch can help catch scum, and I've realized that he was not doing it this game to catch scum. Someone mentioned a trap later, but there wasn't one.
Mindreaver's #58 is the one that Rhand and someone else (I think Mata?) described as soft towards Rhand's Vaimes vote in 50. If it's soft towards anyone it's Tom, as it feels like saying "your numbers would only be useful if we're randomlynching" is something that would be met with a little more suspicion than just asking why he did it.
The @me is kind of a loaded question. Since it's me though and I'm probably a little biased, take a look for yourself.
Now, the @Rhand is, I think, a response I could see in the wake of a blank vote. Blank Vote on Player A->"You haven't said anything about Player A yet. What do you think of him?" seems logical. Unless the fact that Mind didn't actually post the first sentence is part of what he's talking about, but IDK.
In 61 Mindreaver says that tom's Rhyiming is obfuscating his arguments, and that his meanings are loose, but notably doesn't specify where this occurs.
Mindreaver's 66 is weirdly phrased. He says he's against a no lynch (strong language) but only because we're a ways off from deadline. Nearer to deadline, he'd like to think we'd have a good guess as to whether or not it's a good idea (semi-passive language), he thinks it's a good idea because of the info it gives. He also adds that he's apperently pretty bloodthirsty D1, which I'm not sure what that has to do with no-lynching.
In Mata's 73, he makes two goofy sounding votes, one on tom and one on me. He later says the one on me isn't RVS in 77. That's fine.
Oh, it was Mallorean thug's 87 who thought GJ was trying to trap scum with the no lynch thing.(GJ's response is 132. MT reresponds in 147.)
GJ doesn't actually mention that he wasn't trying to trap scum for some reason.
MT's push about how he was trying to trap scum with that is wrong. I read the vote as a joke and the "There are circumstances" post as explaination to why he is known to suggest it. MT also makes a big deal about GJ asking Vaimes why he didn't mention it, but again I read that as GJ thinking that Vaimes is experienced enough to know when NL is a good idea (or specifically that it's not this game) and wondered why Vaimes didn't point that out.
Maybe MT is tunneling on GJ?
MT's explaination in 92 is when I started townreading him. I still think scum!MT probably doesn't clear both me and Vaimes when he didn't have to.
Tom's 99 claims that Vaimes and Rhand are unaligned for post 25, which, again, I agree with. Also says me and Vaimes are the same alignment, which I'm curious about why he thinks that. Matawar is scum for being stilted, which dictionary says means of a manner of talking or writing) stiff and self-conscious or unnatural and is synonomous with strained, forced, contrived. I'd like some quotes. MT is twon for jumping on GJ for springing a trap and not just letting it happen. Could be true, but considering my read on the GJ/MT convo I disagree that THAT makes him town.
So, Rhand's posts. 50, 100, 102. All are blind votes and proclaimations without proof, although proof is promised later. Rhand's 108 says that Mind;s reaction was 'extremely' soft. I'm starting to think Rhand is fake tunneling.
Mindreaver's 110 seems genuinely mad. Not sure what that means.
Mindreavers 113 is a decent vote, because of how Rhand is posting.
Rhand's 118 still doesn't say why both Vaimes and Mindreaver are scum.
Tom's 126 is an answer to the question "Why are Mindreavers reactions town?". His answer is that Mind is aggressive and not appeasing. But Mindreaver has claimed to be bloodthirsty D1.
MT's 145 explores the implications of Mindreavers 58 in more detail, but noticable doesn't take into consideration if Mind had a null read on Vaimes which he has been fairly constistant about. Also makes the case that noncombativeness is scummy because scum don't like creating anti-alignments. That's not necessarily the case though. I mean yes, that can happen but one instance of non-combativeness does not a scum make. I do agree that 66 is weird.
As a whole, I dislike this post. It feels less like he's caught scum and more trying to make things Mind has done look scummier than they actually are (The fact that he missed all the times where Mind had a null read on Vaimes but made his case anyway is a fair part of this.)
MT's 148 says Matowar. If the gamestate gets stale, I'd like to run him up next. I always dislike lynching lurkers D1.
MT's 174 votes Mata, claiming that his read on Mind was put into a different perspective. This is odd given the degree of scumread he had on Mind.
GJ: Why did you never correct MT when she incorrectly accuses you of setting and tripping a trap?
Also what are your reads?
Tom:Why are me and Vaimes aligned specifically?
Where is Mata being stilted?
Given that Mind admits to being bloodthirsty D1, is he still town for being aggressive, and if so why?
Rhand: Can you find a game where you were tunnelly? I don't remember you ever doing that.
Citric: Why is Rhand scum?
In 166 you ask why we don't have votes placed, then modify it with "serious question". Why did you do that?
Mallorean: What does Mind's 66 look like if you consider he's claimed null on him?
How prone to tunnelling are you? An example of it is helpful.
Can you explain in more detail what made you move your vote to Mata in 174?
Vaimes: Can you confirm Mall's answer as to how prone to tunnelling he is? Or if he hasn't answered yet by the time you read this: How prone to tunnelling is MT? An example would be helpful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Because.
Because I wanted to ensure you both acknowledge and specifically answer it (aka why do you not have your votes placed at that time), as opposed to not mention it beyond placing a vote somewhere
You have a long list of questions/thoughts, including relative reads on people, but no conclusions - just questions for players at the end. Including asking some players what their reads are! What are your current reads?? How has this post changed or solidified your reads? Like I don't even really see the point of that post. You didn't even place a vote by the end of it. Do you know what votal analysis is?
Vaimes-My case in 179 is all the reasoning I need here, I think. Tom-Tom is a fairly 'emotions on the sleeve' type, and aside from the rhyming being hard to understand at times, he's acting like the same old tom from Twinborn and Saw and all the town games I've seen him so far. Plus his reads have been consistant. Mallorean Thug-Mall has made some insightful posts, and is fairly open in his thoughts which I like. I'm going to assume the parts I labeled as tunneling are tunneling for now because that's what they look like. Currently leaning town. Citric-Hasn't posted a bunch, but this is a gut read. GJ- Also hasn't posted a lot. I recall him not liking D1s for the reason that there's not much info, but the setup is semi-open so I would figure that's not the case this game? Is his lack of doing stuff for another reason? Matawar-He hasn't done much, and what he has done hasn't made me think either town or scum. Mindreaver- There's a fairly stark contrast between this game and Twinborn. His anger seemed genuine in 113 and I'm not sure if that means he's town, and he's been fairly consistant. However I feel like he's holding back. Rhand-Rhand has been acting odd this game. He's been very tunnelly but I don't recall him ever being tunnelly. He also has spent a lot of time not posting reasons for anything really. That could be a time thing though.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
There's a reason I am not voting. I have at best two lean scum reads. I'm not confident in any of them. I'm really very sure about some of my town reads.
There is literally no one I currently want dead. I need more information.
And I know what Votal analysis is. And when you do it, please note that the reason I am not voting anyone right now is because I'm not nearly confident that anyone is scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KJ:
RVS ok
I like his #35 to Vaimes
And his #45 to tom. This is town!KJ
Hm #67 shows he is aware of his own tunneling meta. Scum wouldn’t say that though, as scum who learned something new about their own meta would fake that meta instead of trying to change it.
Tom:
Self-conscious opening with the “hiding my crimes” thing
His math post is useless
Apparently the math was RVS joking, which fits his recent meta, so ok.
#60: Does Vaimes say things like “impossibru”? The part about KJ is solid.
#104: I like his reaction to my naked votes
#117: tom reads as misguided town
Vaimes:
RVS ok
Asking KJ to explain the reasoning of his RVS post, which was a vote on me as very first post of the game, is bad. And he does it self-consciously.
The question about GJ’s no lynch vote is filler. And he didn’t even think it through.
His conversation with KJ and then the vote seems all forced, and then the 10% thing looks weird.
His questioning of Tom is good.
#46 makes him scum and is why I was voting him with my first vote: the “vote me and see how it works out” thing is not what town would do, as town would like KJ to look elsewhere because KJ should be looking for scum.
And then #49: he admits to placing a vote that “had the potential to be serious”. That is what scum always hope their vote will accomplish.
#55 is a bit better: he doesn’t want to clutter the thread (which can happen when town!KJ bites into something)
#57 is self-conscious again
#65: he admits to making half-serious, half-joke posts. Which is a minor scumtell.
#69: is trying to get KJ to focus elsewhere
#101: “I’m missing why mindreaver is scummy” is waay to soft. I didn’t call him scummy, I called him scum.
#122: Vaimes knows I’m town.
#127: the @Mindreaver seems forced. The names seems random.
Mindreaver:
RVS vote sounds forced
#27 is ok, looks like he does have fun in RVS.
#58 has a bad push on tom (the math was already established as RVS). The @KJ might be a chainsaw. The question to me about my Vaimes vote is too soft. The way it is phrased triggers all my alarms.
#61 looks like a threat to tom. I’m not sure what he meant here.
#66: He calls himself bloodthirsty, but his posts don’t show that.
#110: dismisses my read on him as terrible, “almost” deliberately so. The almost shows that he knows I’m not deliberately making a terrible analysis there, ergo he knows I’m town.
#111: sees Vaimes and KJ as aligned. After what could’ve been a chainsaw on KJ, this looks like he wants to set up KJ when Vaimes flips scum.
#113: He thinks Vaimes and KJ are aligned, but votes me?? He misinterprets what I’m saying about him and Vaimes and bases the vote on that. (To rephrase that: at that point I thought you and Vaimes are both independently scum. I wasn’t looking for relations. Reading back now, you being scum together does make a lot of sense, but that was not what I was looking at back then)
#125: He thinks Vaimes and KJ are aligned but is null on Vaimes? Strange. About the tone change thing: I was talking about all your posts, not just the one aimed at me.
This sentence irks me: “I'm wondering who this exchange benefits the most. You have managed to siphon two previously-RVS votes away from the other wagons.”
Why think in this way? Isn’t it good that RVS votes get replaced by serious votes?
#128: Looks like he forgot that he said Vaimes and KJ are aligned, as he now says scumteam is KJ and me.
GJ:
No lynch doesn’t make sense this game, but he usually opens like that so ok.
I like his reaction to Vaimes in #34
#132 is probably a town vs town head-butt with Mallorean
Citric:
#71 looks like he read the game, but he doesn’t give real input.
Not much body to his next posts (which are very few)
Matowar:
Probably didn’t read anything yet on entry?
Oh he did. The KJ vote is serious. But why vote KJ and not Vaimes if that argueing is a waste of time? Vaimes is just as much stimulating that conversation as KJ is. (I think matowar is unaligned with Vaimes for this though. He would not vote KJ for that reason if his buddy was the other one in that conversation)
Mallorean:
#86: I think Vaimes’s answer was way too serious there, but mallorean takes the opposite conclusion. Strange.
#87: I think he’s looking too deep into GJ’s motives. But seems like he realizes that himself as well, so ok.
#145: Rhand thanks this post.
Haven’t read the last page yet. I’ve got to do some RL stuff now but will be back later today.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hmm I could've sworn I posted twice but my internet must have been shaky :S Ah well I guess we've thankfully gotten past the Vaimes Killjoy interaction. Even if we weren't to meta here Johnny is feeling lurky and uninterested. We have a solid ground on a first possible lynch, if we're between Rhand and Vaimes as scum as someone mentioned earlier, my bet is on Rhand though both are acting different to how they were in ace attorney. Vaimes is far less lurky and blunt and Rhand is saying far less and not getting as snappy at votes thrown at him Sorry I'm pretty sucky at first day interactions. There's nothing to solve in the setup til we lynch a relevant role and I'm still unversed in the whole how people talk and argue D1 thing. You'll see me a hell of a lot more as the game state moves on
@KJ: I tunnel a lot as town. Probably every town game will show you tunneling. I even fake it as scum because I know I do it as town.
I'm amazed you don't see me as a tunneling person.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I still like Mallorean and KJ, I like Citric, I am leaning town on GJ, I am a bit wary of tom and matowar, and still think Vaimes and Mindreaver are scum.
Those are my reads after reading everything.
I'd like your vote to be on whoever you think is the scummiest at the time. I don't really care how absolutely sure you are, it's a relative thing. No, I can't put down "was too unsure to vote" when doing VCA, that just means you end up in the pile of "fits onto every scumteam". This isn't just about reading you, it's also about reading everybody else. PoE doesn't work if too many possibilities are left open by lack of information. Thanks!
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where i brought up no lynch, and he reacted the same
i feel pretty good, about that big three
well win for sure with you guys and me
but if i am wrong, especially about vaimes
this could be less fun and games
This game's felt more "I know I'm supposed to think that no-lynch is stupid, and here's a smorgasboard of reasons why. But a smart player I have TMI is town is suggesting it, and I don't want to fight him".
Just confusion, or thinking that was a good line to push and then forgetting about it?
it seems dumb to him, and the suggester a ponce
but its been brought up each time he signs up to play
so hes starting to think it might be okay
but he doesnt see why, and he wants us to tell him
and no one explained, and its looking quite grim
it worried me too, i actually noted it then
but as he kept posting, i felt much more zen
I was leaning towards him not wanting to try to tussle with me, but to go after the easier target.
Because I'm having a hard time squaring his lack of response to me with how self-conscious he was about Rhand. Sure, at that point I hadn't actually given reasons, so he didn't have anything to argue against, but even so . . .
any response would just have been roaring
scum is more likely to take that bait
but as town: for your reasons he might as well wait
Killjoy: Vaimes, Matowar77
Mindreaver: Rhand, mallorean_thug
Rhand: Mindreaver, tomsloger, CitricBase
Not Voting:
Gentleman Johnny, Killjoy
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline is June 7, 2016
To clarify a few things:
1) The beginning part is written that way because it's in response to GJ's semi-attack on Vaimes where he's saying "You should KNOW the reason why a no-lynch is bad". As if it was obvious. I legitimately didn't understand why it'd be bad from a setup perspective, and was a little self conscious that I should have (turns out though, that other more experienced players were also confused so I didn't really need to feel that way). GJ's explanation was much appreciated in that regard (I hadn't considered that no investigative roles were possible).
2) "I like the info it gives on day two". I meant the lynch gives us information for day two. Having somebody flip after lots of interaction is the info I'm talking about. That wasn't clear on a re-read.
3) "I'm also pretty bloodthirsty day 1 apparently" and "just because we're 12 days away". I'm going to be against a no-lynch in 99% of situations, hence the bloodthirsty comment. In this setup, where we have to explicitly vote no-lynch (instead of other setups where we might default to no-lynch if the threshold isn't reached), I might be in favor if we were up against a deadline, and the lynch target was only at 3 votes OR was being selected as "the first person to get to that total". The 12 days away thing is just that the deadline for those conditions is pretty far off. If this was 48 hour phases, we'd reach those conditions quickly.
Nervous as in, I'm getting very focused on active posters and you're lurking. Lurkers always make me nervous that I'm not paying as much attention to them as I should.
p.s. You've done more posting since I wrote that, so thank you.
Well, I wouldn't classify Rhand as an easier target
Anyway, the difference is, I don't mind being considered on a list of suspects. That's natural. "I'm looking at GJ then Mind" doesn't ping me the same way as "Mindreaver is scum, Vote Mindreaver" does. I post a lot. I am relatively new to the game. I've never played with you before. So, I probably should be on your list. Which is okay, I assume I'll learn why eventually (now maybe?).
Silly Mallorean, F5 is one of the most important keys on my keyboard. You realize it was something like 2:30AM for me when I made my last post?
Unless you see me and Mallorean both dying N1/N2, I strongly doubt you'll have to worry about a sneaky Vaimes. There's no way he can think he can end-game with town as scum in this game
Ah, I was interpreting it as moderately scared of me after Ace Attorney, though I guess that's also me blowing some of my play out of proportion. Question, what's your mafia experience? Other games here or other sites? Mind linking a town/scum games of yours if they exist?
@Matowar is probably due for a ping @DotArchon
@Gentleman_Johnny and @Killjoy, why don't you guys have votes placed (serious question)?
As Town: Twinborn (super cool note. The comment that got me lynched day 2, I was completely right about, check scumchat.)
As Scum: None
Also I feel better about Citrus.
Other responses Eventually, have chores to do.
a T/S list in verse is not a thing i can do
so here it is, with no rhyming in sight
the game's in the bag if im even half right
Town: vaimes, thug, mind
Lean Town: citric, kj
Lean Scum: mato, johnny
Scum: rhand
There's no time to learn like the present. And at the current pace, we won't see more of you as the game goes on, because you're going to get PoE'd. Ignore the setup for now and actually talk to people.
Specufically, could you ask a question to at least 2 other players that aren't me? The sharper the question, the more points you get.
but i understand if you dont have the time
If you can't figure out why I thought you were newb!scum from my wall and conversation with Tom, I can't help you.
That said, the detail I was missing previously was that you got mislynched by scum day2 of your only game. That puts your reponse to Rhand in a slightly different perspective. That's actually enough that I'm comfortable moving over here for now:
Day1 Vote Matowar77
Since phases are so long, I'll probably at least glance through that game rather just take you/Tom at your words, but this is fine for now.
Here's a protip based on what I think is currently keeping you from being max useful: Day1 can often be more about hunting for town than hunting for scum. And it's the only day when everybody is alive. Interactions and votes are king because we can look back at them on later days when we have more info to solve the game. And if you think the scumteam is afk, you can work on forming/strengthening your townreads to make their life far more difficult when they do get back.
I just didn't want to make assumptions, fair enough.
some mobile posting, maybe catchup instead of sleep
The GJ way path to no lynching:
While I initially claimed Vaimes was lean scum for not having a sense of humor with the whole "DotA is scum with Rhand" joke, on this reread I noticed this:
which itself shows lack of seriousness in general, and more importantly a lack of self-awareness.
Another thing was looking for on this reread is weak justification for pushing against me, or justification that can be easily explained away (a point I was making when I jumped on him for only commiting 10% to his vote). Here he explains why he voted me:
His reason was that joking the mod beign scum is a light scumtell because it potentially avoids talking about other people, and that I reacted weirdly to the first/only vote on me, and asking tom about the math doesn't actually do anything.The first thing is a variation of voting the mod, which is a light scumtell. The second is a variation of the 'overreacting to the first vote on you' scumtell. The third is the 'busywork' scumtell.
His reasoning here is not terrible. It doesn't leave him a lot of wiggleroom. Here, he's committing to his read.
In response to my point that his 10% vote being a cop out and weak (as I was looking for above):
This is not a scum response, IMO. Scum would not make this argument because of how bad it is in terms of proving himself. "I wouldn't do that" only ever prompts the response of "We can't know that." which a scum would know. It doesn't make him seem less scummy, or more townie. It accomplishes little from a scum perspective.
And finally:
I am putting a fair bit of weight on this. I've found that scum, when asked what their scumtells are, are really bad at manufacturing tells that do not currently apply to them.
So. I'm now pretty sure Vaimes is town. This makes me wonder about Rhand.
@Citric: Because I haven't necessarily found scum yet. Rhand might be but he hasn't posted much. I also had a thought about Mindreaver being scum but nothing concrete.
Let's all remember that "Vaimes and Rhand are anti-aligned" does NOT mean "There is exactly one scum between Vaimes and Rhand".
That said, in context, Killjoy's statement is fine, while Matowar's statement is not.
Killjoy didn't need to think about Rhand while he was thinking about Vaimes. And he specifically acknowledged and agreed with the stated anti-alignment. So after changing his mind on Vaimes, he'd need to actually look at Rhand. All's good here.
Matowar, however, is misrembering, misunderstanding, or purposefully misrepresenting the thread. And he's using that to imply that if he's townreading Vaimes he /has/ to scumread Rhand. Additionally, that post also say's that he's happy to be past the Vaimes/Killjoy thing, but his vote isn't past it. @Matowar, please move your vote, or at least specifically state where you vote would be if you weren't withholding it for hammer reasons.
Lynching the silence would be pretty rough
My other two choices are mostly the same
So i am happy pressing pause on this game
Would you agree that the rest of us have no reason to accept you not posting? While it might not be in your narrowly defined self-interest to share your reads if you're town, surely you can see that its actively against the interest of town as a whole to allow you to do that because you could be scum. I find watching a player's reads progression is very helpful for figuring out their alignment, and forcing people to publicly state reads makes it much harder for scum to show up later with the "correct" reads for the situation.
I'd suggest you actually play Day1, because at your current trajectory, I don't plan to let you live to Day2.
I don't understand this sentence at all. Please elaborate.
That wasn't a real question, and it definitely wasn't sharp. Please try again.
Two of [GentlemanJohnny, Killjoy, Vaimes] should definitely join me on Matowar. If not, they need to do something else useful with their vote.
I would like to see some other people do something proactive.
But really I hope his feet will stop draggin'
I would normally like his paranoia of us
But it doesn't seem real, faking mistrust
If he really thought, that we two were scum
He'd be asking questions, not sucking his thumb
Only when you are not completely wrong :). And assumes the other person isn't aware of certain tells they give off.
I am going to use Citric's example of how you overblew my interaction with Vaimes. Tell me though, why would you not wait to see how our little interaction played out, rather than come at meand call it out?
I think tom meant I am more polite. I am actually a cold hearted manipulative bastard and my politeness is more Hannibal Lector, rather than John Burgoyne, but he gets the point.
Micros have become a thing more frequently, and as such, so have open/semi-open set-ups. Aside from pleasantly shorter games, it also means that people should be speculating if there is an action(s) that can help the town. The last micro, no lynch ended up being correct. There may be set-ups were day 1 mass claims, or other actions may be optimal, and am surprised no one thought that a semi-open set up like this one might create some....interesting circumstances.
I don't have any scum reads, really. I feel pretty good right now about Seppel 2.0 and MThug (MT) for town, but the rest are questions. I am working on relieving that.
My Experience such as it is:
As Town: Twinborn (super cool note. The comment that got me lynched day 2, I was completely right about, check scumchat.)
As Scum: None Frown[/quote]
As the mod for that game, I would have done the same if a townie had that issue.
Why Rhand? Maybe break the poems, as deciphering them has been a bit of a pain in the ass.
Joining a second game, with several of the same players was likely a mistake, especially in my transition period. I have no intention of quitting, but I find my resoures scattered, and often clashing, due to similarities (note, not mentioning specifics).
Why?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Matowar, can you explain why not posting who you think is town is useful? Like why is that helpful? If you bring up who you think is town and why, it allows other players like me to give some feedback on your thoughts. Even if scum step in and try to convince you out of your townreads or something, that will be saved in the posting history and it will probably be noticeable for solving the game later on. You also realize that you make it very hard for us to delineate your alignment when you decide to hold all your cards close to chest.
A lot of solving the game comes from behavioral analysis. The more 'stuff' that happens, the more 'behavior' that can be analyzed for things that we don't think someone could fake as scum, connections between players, awkward interactions that we don't think 2 scum players could have had, etc.
I literally didn't even realize that you're ?scum-reading? Mallorean until this post. What about Mallorean puts you in a tinfoil hat club for him?
Right now I feel pretty good about Tom. I think the rhyming thing makes me read him more townish, contrary to how others are interpreting it, but even removing that I feel fairly good about him. Mallorean, I feel good about as well, primarily because he's trying to drive the game forwards especially with noone else helping spur it on in a pretty organic way (trying to spur discussion, rather than shoving reads down people's throats)
You just have to read them closely, my dear
My case on rhand was my very best one
Post 120 is when it was done
The rhyme is impressive, but so was the read
I can't see townrhand doing that deed
Two reads like that, the whole damn solution
But he doesn't even look for signs of collusion
Citric I'm glad you have me as town
But my rhyming means nothing except I'm a clown
Because the vote is one of the most powerful tools we have? Because it causes reactions and stuff when wagons build up? Because it wastes a lot of the day to not use it?
I don't think anyone professes to have the scum-team pinned down (except in jest). All you really did in your last post is shift your read on Vaimes towards more likely to be town (which is the strong thread-consensus, at least amongst the more active posters). How is that getting you closer to figuring out any of the scum? What's your PoE at right now? Or what's your method of solving a mafia game?
Ditto everything I just said to Killjoy. Who are you referring to as Seppel 2.0? Why do you read them as town? Why do you read Mallorean as town? Is everyone else null (no read) or null (neutral read)? I didn't pay too much attention to you early in Ace Attorney because you turned out to be a spectacular distraction, but I feel like you were a /little/ more vocal (assertive? dominating?) then you've been thus far
I didn't think that letting it play out would do anything useful. I /did/ think that calling you out would do something useful. Alas, your quantity of posts hasn't made it the most productive thing, but I still think it was worth doing.
You're aware that this isn't a novel setup, right? Like, other sites have run tons of games like this, some with this exact grid. I'm surprised you're wasting time trying to reinvent the wheel.
[quote from="Gentleman Johnny »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/703166-off-the-grid-mafia-day-1?comment=185"]
Why not? I'm fine if you refuse, but only if you actually do something with your vote yourself. Continuing to abstain is anti-town.
End of the previous post should look like:
Why not? I'm fine if you refuse, but only if you actually do something with your vote yourself. Continuing to abstain is anti-town.
I just reread to GJ's 34 where he explains why proposing no lynch can help catch scum, and I've realized that he was not doing it this game to catch scum. Someone mentioned a trap later, but there wasn't one.
Mindreaver's #58 is the one that Rhand and someone else (I think Mata?) described as soft towards Rhand's Vaimes vote in 50. If it's soft towards anyone it's Tom, as it feels like saying "your numbers would only be useful if we're randomlynching" is something that would be met with a little more suspicion than just asking why he did it.
The @me is kind of a loaded question. Since it's me though and I'm probably a little biased, take a look for yourself.
Now, the @Rhand is, I think, a response I could see in the wake of a blank vote. Blank Vote on Player A->"You haven't said anything about Player A yet. What do you think of him?" seems logical. Unless the fact that Mind didn't actually post the first sentence is part of what he's talking about, but IDK.
In 61 Mindreaver says that tom's Rhyiming is obfuscating his arguments, and that his meanings are loose, but notably doesn't specify where this occurs.
Mindreaver's 66 is weirdly phrased. He says he's against a no lynch (strong language) but only because we're a ways off from deadline. Nearer to deadline, he'd like to think we'd have a good guess as to whether or not it's a good idea (semi-passive language), he thinks it's a good idea because of the info it gives. He also adds that he's apperently pretty bloodthirsty D1, which I'm not sure what that has to do with no-lynching.
In Mata's 73, he makes two goofy sounding votes, one on tom and one on me. He later says the one on me isn't RVS in 77. That's fine.
Oh, it was Mallorean thug's 87 who thought GJ was trying to trap scum with the no lynch thing.(GJ's response is 132. MT reresponds in 147.)
GJ doesn't actually mention that he wasn't trying to trap scum for some reason.
MT's push about how he was trying to trap scum with that is wrong. I read the vote as a joke and the "There are circumstances" post as explaination to why he is known to suggest it. MT also makes a big deal about GJ asking Vaimes why he didn't mention it, but again I read that as GJ thinking that Vaimes is experienced enough to know when NL is a good idea (or specifically that it's not this game) and wondered why Vaimes didn't point that out.
Maybe MT is tunneling on GJ?
MT's explaination in 92 is when I started townreading him. I still think scum!MT probably doesn't clear both me and Vaimes when he didn't have to.
Tom's 99 claims that Vaimes and Rhand are unaligned for post 25, which, again, I agree with. Also says me and Vaimes are the same alignment, which I'm curious about why he thinks that. Matawar is scum for being stilted, which dictionary says means of a manner of talking or writing) stiff and self-conscious or unnatural and is synonomous with strained, forced, contrived. I'd like some quotes. MT is twon for jumping on GJ for springing a trap and not just letting it happen. Could be true, but considering my read on the GJ/MT convo I disagree that THAT makes him town.
So, Rhand's posts. 50, 100, 102. All are blind votes and proclaimations without proof, although proof is promised later. Rhand's 108 says that Mind;s reaction was 'extremely' soft. I'm starting to think Rhand is fake tunneling.
Mindreaver's 110 seems genuinely mad. Not sure what that means.
Mindreavers 113 is a decent vote, because of how Rhand is posting.
Rhand's 118 still doesn't say why both Vaimes and Mindreaver are scum.
Rhand's 121 is more fake tunneling.
Tom's 126 is an answer to the question "Why are Mindreavers reactions town?". His answer is that Mind is aggressive and not appeasing. But Mindreaver has claimed to be bloodthirsty D1.
Citric's 140 votes Rhand (no reasoning)
MT's 145 explores the implications of Mindreavers 58 in more detail, but noticable doesn't take into consideration if Mind had a null read on Vaimes which he has been fairly constistant about. Also makes the case that noncombativeness is scummy because scum don't like creating anti-alignments. That's not necessarily the case though. I mean yes, that can happen but one instance of non-combativeness does not a scum make. I do agree that 66 is weird.
As a whole, I dislike this post. It feels less like he's caught scum and more trying to make things Mind has done look scummier than they actually are (The fact that he missed all the times where Mind had a null read on Vaimes but made his case anyway is a fair part of this.)
MT's 148 says Matowar. If the gamestate gets stale, I'd like to run him up next. I always dislike lynching lurkers D1.
MT's 174 votes Mata, claiming that his read on Mind was put into a different perspective. This is odd given the degree of scumread he had on Mind.
MT's 180 is a good assessment.
GJ: Why did you never correct MT when she incorrectly accuses you of setting and tripping a trap?
Also what are your reads?
Tom:Why are me and Vaimes aligned specifically?
Where is Mata being stilted?
Given that Mind admits to being bloodthirsty D1, is he still town for being aggressive, and if so why?
Rhand: Can you find a game where you were tunnelly? I don't remember you ever doing that.
Citric: Why is Rhand scum?
In 166 you ask why we don't have votes placed, then modify it with "serious question". Why did you do that?
Mallorean: What does Mind's 66 look like if you consider he's claimed null on him?
How prone to tunnelling are you? An example of it is helpful.
Can you explain in more detail what made you move your vote to Mata in 174?
Vaimes: Can you confirm Mall's answer as to how prone to tunnelling he is? Or if he hasn't answered yet by the time you read this: How prone to tunnelling is MT? An example would be helpful.
Because.
Because I wanted to ensure you both acknowledge and specifically answer it (aka why do you not have your votes placed at that time), as opposed to not mention it beyond placing a vote somewhere
You have a long list of questions/thoughts, including relative reads on people, but no conclusions - just questions for players at the end. Including asking some players what their reads are! What are your current reads?? How has this post changed or solidified your reads? Like I don't even really see the point of that post. You didn't even place a vote by the end of it. Do you know what votal analysis is?
Vaimes-My case in 179 is all the reasoning I need here, I think.
Tom-Tom is a fairly 'emotions on the sleeve' type, and aside from the rhyming being hard to understand at times, he's acting like the same old tom from Twinborn and Saw and all the town games I've seen him so far. Plus his reads have been consistant.
Mallorean Thug-Mall has made some insightful posts, and is fairly open in his thoughts which I like. I'm going to assume the parts I labeled as tunneling are tunneling for now because that's what they look like. Currently leaning town.
Citric-Hasn't posted a bunch, but this is a gut read.
GJ- Also hasn't posted a lot. I recall him not liking D1s for the reason that there's not much info, but the setup is semi-open so I would figure that's not the case this game? Is his lack of doing stuff for another reason?
Matawar-He hasn't done much, and what he has done hasn't made me think either town or scum.
Mindreaver- There's a fairly stark contrast between this game and Twinborn. His anger seemed genuine in 113 and I'm not sure if that means he's town, and he's been fairly consistant. However I feel like he's holding back.
Rhand-Rhand has been acting odd this game. He's been very tunnelly but I don't recall him ever being tunnelly. He also has spent a lot of time not posting reasons for anything really. That could be a time thing though.
There is literally no one I currently want dead. I need more information.
And I know what Votal analysis is. And when you do it, please note that the reason I am not voting anyone right now is because I'm not nearly confident that anyone is scum.
RVS ok
I like his #35 to Vaimes
And his #45 to tom. This is town!KJ
Hm #67 shows he is aware of his own tunneling meta. Scum wouldn’t say that though, as scum who learned something new about their own meta would fake that meta instead of trying to change it.
Tom:
Self-conscious opening with the “hiding my crimes” thing
His math post is useless
Apparently the math was RVS joking, which fits his recent meta, so ok.
#60: Does Vaimes say things like “impossibru”? The part about KJ is solid.
#104: I like his reaction to my naked votes
#117: tom reads as misguided town
Vaimes:
RVS ok
Asking KJ to explain the reasoning of his RVS post, which was a vote on me as very first post of the game, is bad. And he does it self-consciously.
The question about GJ’s no lynch vote is filler. And he didn’t even think it through.
His conversation with KJ and then the vote seems all forced, and then the 10% thing looks weird.
His questioning of Tom is good.
#46 makes him scum and is why I was voting him with my first vote: the “vote me and see how it works out” thing is not what town would do, as town would like KJ to look elsewhere because KJ should be looking for scum.
And then #49: he admits to placing a vote that “had the potential to be serious”. That is what scum always hope their vote will accomplish.
#55 is a bit better: he doesn’t want to clutter the thread (which can happen when town!KJ bites into something)
#57 is self-conscious again
#65: he admits to making half-serious, half-joke posts. Which is a minor scumtell.
#69: is trying to get KJ to focus elsewhere
#101: “I’m missing why mindreaver is scummy” is waay to soft. I didn’t call him scummy, I called him scum.
#122: Vaimes knows I’m town.
#127: the @Mindreaver seems forced. The names seems random.
Mindreaver:
RVS vote sounds forced
#27 is ok, looks like he does have fun in RVS.
#58 has a bad push on tom (the math was already established as RVS). The @KJ might be a chainsaw. The question to me about my Vaimes vote is too soft. The way it is phrased triggers all my alarms.
#61 looks like a threat to tom. I’m not sure what he meant here.
#66: He calls himself bloodthirsty, but his posts don’t show that.
#110: dismisses my read on him as terrible, “almost” deliberately so. The almost shows that he knows I’m not deliberately making a terrible analysis there, ergo he knows I’m town.
#111: sees Vaimes and KJ as aligned. After what could’ve been a chainsaw on KJ, this looks like he wants to set up KJ when Vaimes flips scum.
#113: He thinks Vaimes and KJ are aligned, but votes me?? He misinterprets what I’m saying about him and Vaimes and bases the vote on that. (To rephrase that: at that point I thought you and Vaimes are both independently scum. I wasn’t looking for relations. Reading back now, you being scum together does make a lot of sense, but that was not what I was looking at back then)
#125: He thinks Vaimes and KJ are aligned but is null on Vaimes? Strange. About the tone change thing: I was talking about all your posts, not just the one aimed at me.
This sentence irks me: “I'm wondering who this exchange benefits the most. You have managed to siphon two previously-RVS votes away from the other wagons.”
Why think in this way? Isn’t it good that RVS votes get replaced by serious votes?
#128: Looks like he forgot that he said Vaimes and KJ are aligned, as he now says scumteam is KJ and me.
GJ:
No lynch doesn’t make sense this game, but he usually opens like that so ok.
I like his reaction to Vaimes in #34
#132 is probably a town vs town head-butt with Mallorean
Citric:
#71 looks like he read the game, but he doesn’t give real input.
Not much body to his next posts (which are very few)
Matowar:
Probably didn’t read anything yet on entry?
Oh he did. The KJ vote is serious. But why vote KJ and not Vaimes if that argueing is a waste of time? Vaimes is just as much stimulating that conversation as KJ is. (I think matowar is unaligned with Vaimes for this though. He would not vote KJ for that reason if his buddy was the other one in that conversation)
Mallorean:
#86: I think Vaimes’s answer was way too serious there, but mallorean takes the opposite conclusion. Strange.
#87: I think he’s looking too deep into GJ’s motives. But seems like he realizes that himself as well, so ok.
#145: Rhand thanks this post.
Haven’t read the last page yet. I’ve got to do some RL stuff now but will be back later today.
Votecount:
Killjoy: Vaimes, Matowar77
Mindreaver: Rhand, mallorean_thug
Rhand: tomsloger, CitricBase
Matowar77: Mindreaver
Not Voting:
Gentleman Johnny, Killjoy
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline is June 7, 2016
Then why are you voting KillJoy?
I'm amazed you don't see me as a tunneling person.
Looking forward to page 4 thoughts.
Those are my reads after reading everything.
I'd like your vote to be on whoever you think is the scummiest at the time. I don't really care how absolutely sure you are, it's a relative thing. No, I can't put down "was too unsure to vote" when doing VCA, that just means you end up in the pile of "fits onto every scumteam". This isn't just about reading you, it's also about reading everybody else. PoE doesn't work if too many possibilities are left open by lack of information. Thanks!