And my scum read on Hunger is based on seeing a lot of hunger in the past. And I can't see the towniness in his voice this time. He seems unnecessarily confrontational, which is absent from his towngame.
I had too many townreads so I moved Huntzilla, Hunger, and Kraj off the townbloc.
My gut still thinks that Hunger is town due to the role PM thing (that was the exact thought process I had as well with regards to Bloscovi's role PM) but I'm just inclined to throw away that piece of evidence entirely lest I run straight into a poster saying "HI I'M ISO AND I'M SCREWING YOU".
I really liked Kraj's earlier posts but he's dropped off, and the vote on not_a_gimmick purely based on flavorgaming kind of makes me want to shake Kraj and go "WHY".
Going to catchup a bit later/respond to Ghosting, but I just wanted to be put on record that any votes on Bloscovi are useless for Today since it's -EV to lynch a strong player Day 1. (inb4 Tapping complains about MTGS meta strong player rep)
He's not going to get lynched, since if he is town we will wrap up the game in pretty short order. If he is scum then he has buddies to hunt - we can kill them off first, then re-evaluate when we hit Day 4 or so. But we'll win more games in the long run if we accept Bloscovi is town and let him work his magic to kill the scum.
Your relationship with Bloscovi is very interesting. You're dismissing a wagon on him before it's even taken off, it just seems very reactive of you.
Additionally, saying he's not an option to potentially day 4? I just feel like you're clearing a player so definitively for such a long time. The relationship is one I'm not sure I understand.
[b]@Bloscovi[/b] Here's my opinion of that Kraj post:
[b]Vote: Kraj{/b]
[b]@Kraj, Proph, Brinatoo, Hunger[/b] Pick a number 1-25, there is likely a wrong answer, but there may not be a right answer. If you do not respond within your next two posts you will be voted for.
I have updated my notes, I want to see where this Kraj deal goes. I'm also interested in Matowar.
There is waaaaaay to much unprompted role info ITT. Loose lips sink ships, folks.
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Going to catchup a bit later/respond to Ghosting, but I just wanted to be put on record that any votes on Bloscovi are useless for Today since it's -EV to lynch a strong player Day 1. (inb4 Tapping complains about MTGS meta strong player rep)
He's not going to get lynched, since if he is town we will wrap up the game in pretty short order. If he is scum then he has buddies to hunt - we can kill them off first, then re-evaluate when we hit Day 4 or so. But we'll win more games in the long run if we accept Bloscovi is town and let him work his magic to kill the scum.
Considering that Blos wanted to use a gimmick account he doesn't get the benefit of meta Proph. You guys are trying to have your cake and eat it too and I think the way you and Blos are playing with private information is not good for Mafia games in general. Bloscovi choose to use a gimmick so that we couldn't meta him but you know who he is and try to give him cred as a good player through your experience with him. So basically he gets the benefit of meta without the drawback. No, that's a very cheap way to play the game and I'm sad to see you play it out like this.
@TappingStones: If Blos flips scum, do you think that makes it more likely Proph is scum or Ghosting?
Excellent question. My first inclination would be Ghosting. Buddied with Proph could also be a think but hiding in plain sight like this seems like a much weaker line of play.
I really liked Kraj's earlier posts but he's dropped off, and the vote on not_a_gimmick purely based on flavorgaming kind of makes me want to shake Kraj and go "WHY".
Excellent question. My first inclination would be Ghosting. Buddied with Proph could also be a think but hiding in plain sight like this seems like a much weaker line of play.
But if he's been bussing since page 2 and he's unaligned with Proph, is there something to Proph's plan of "let him scum hunt for a few Days then reevaluate?"
And as much as I think he's likely scum, I don't think that wagon's going to go anywhere until day 2 or 3 at the earliest with Seppel and Proph both against it.
@Seppel:
You said Blos is obviously town, do you know his meta too or is there something more than that?
Excellent question. My first inclination would be Ghosting. Buddied with Proph could also be a think but hiding in plain sight like this seems like a much weaker line of play.
But if he's been bussing since page 2 and he's unaligned with Proph, is there something to Proph's plan of "let him scum hunt for a few Days then reevaluate?"
And as much as I think he's likely scum, I don't think that wagon's going to go anywhere until day 2 or 3 at the earliest with Seppel and Proph both against it.
@Seppel:
You said Blos is obviously town, do you know his meta too or is there something more than that?
I mean, nothing is set in stone. We are all just trying to figure things out but Bloscovi's interactions with Ghosting are gross.
[quote from="TappingStones »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/700341-goldeneye-mafia-d"]@Seppel:
You said Blos is obviously town, do you know his meta too or is there something more than that?
The role PM formatting issues he mentioned match up directly with my role PM formatting issues. I have zero reason to believe a scum could make that up.
There is waaaaaay to much unprompted role info ITT. Loose lips sink ships, folks.
Jobie complains that were solving the game too fast ITT.
LOOK AT SEPPEL HES GOT JOKES.
Or it's the fact that I've seen games go sideways did to role discussions that are highly unprompted. Some of my best games as scum occurred because of subtle discussions narrowing down who has PRs and who doesnt. ITT it isn't even subtle. So I'm more annoyed we're doing the hard work for the scum.
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I don't think we should maintain the mindset that a wagon can't move unless at least one of the more experienced players in the game support it. I understand Seppel and Proph are town reading Blosc, but that doesn't excuse his behaviour, especially if you're saying "Oh yeah I think he's town, there's just nothing we can do about that." This is more a point about how I've seen a lot of players in general, and I don't want it happening in this game as well.
Unfortunately, Blosc refuses to address my questions and concerns, and is now v/la...
@Blos - re:Kraj's iso: His first three posts are RVS and I don't get anything out of them, and then the rest of his posts seem pretty well thought out. He provides pretty good reasoning for his thoughts and goes after TS for not thinking through both town and scum motivations re:NAG. After some interaction with TS Kraj reasons that he is more likely town for the way TS OMGUS'd him. HP calls him out for his reasoning on TS and he expands further his thought process, which I find to be reasonable. He then places a vote on Mindreaver with what I think are OK arguments, but a bit shallow. I should probably go back and check if there was momentum on Mindreaver at that point. I also think Mindreaver is town which makes it a bit worse IMO. None of his arguments stand out as something that couldn't come from scum or town, but it makes me think whatever his alignment is he is a fairly capable player.
His most recent post is along similar lines of what we have been discussing with flavor. I tend to agree that there is more to the Bond role than what we know, but I'm not entirely sold on that making NAG scum. I guess now that I think about it I don't like that Kraj is totally bought into flavor-gaming and assumes that the fact that NAG doesn't fear a NK must mean he is scum while his entire attack on TS was predicated on not thinking through both sides of what it means for NAG being town and scum. Like, the fact that he has a pretty well substantiated lover claim seems like a pretty good reason to not fear a NK at this stage in the game, or you know he is Bond and is likely difficult to kill regardless of alignment so not sure why he couldn't be town/neutral that thinks he has a good chance to survive. Like, his suspicion I understand, but the conclusion that he must be scum and deserves a vote seems like a bit of a disconnect from his previous play.
I'm trying to figure out what scum has to gain with that attack on NAG though. It is a pretty risky attack for a scum in that position to make with most people accepting that they are indeed lovers. I want to see more of him when/if he fully catches up. After reading that I have him in my scum lean pile at the moment for the disconnect between his behavior and what he pushed TS for as well as his flimsy Mindreaver attack.
So, what did you see in his iso?
@Kraj - Reconcile your attack on TS for not thinking through both town and scum motivations of NAG's claim while you are voting NAG here and seemingly not considering the town/neutral motivations.
@Jobie - No thanks, I don't do extortion. Vote away.
[quote from="TappingStones »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/700341-goldeneye-mafia-d"]@Seppel:
You said Blos is obviously town, do you know his meta too or is there something more than that?
The role PM formatting issues he mentioned match up directly with my role PM formatting issues. I have zero reason to believe a scum could make that up.
So, you are saying your PM also only says "Good Guy" with no mention of Town in it?
I'd like 1-2 of the following players [Jobie, Hunter, Brinatoo, Huntzilla, Matowar], to read this: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=700341&by-author=Kraj carefully, and tell me what you think.
Others can do so as well, but hold off until at least 1-2 of those do it, please.
Rather, I encourage everyone to read it and form an opinion, but don't necessarily post it yet.
I'll give you my short opinion on his posts, though I might subconciously be biased because he shared an opinion on TS early. Every post leading up to the NAG one was reasonable with analysis/logical from a fixed viewpoint. The thing with the NAG post is, and I'll barn roughly what Proph said, it's assuming too many factors with how little info we have in the game so far. Plus I hate mod-gaming and flavor-gaming so I'm going to ignore that bit but I think the part about that post that has me leaning town motivation behind that is because Kraj is using situational/reactionary play in that scenario to scumhunt.
Though, I do have one question:
@Brinatoo: This may be something lost by simply ISOing you (so I don't get any context) but what happened to your scumread on TappingStones? Your last relevant post about Tapping was on post #161, then you vote Silvercrys. What's your read on TappingStones now, and why did you stop pressuring him? Are you still scumreading Silvercrys?
I still think TS is scum and I'll likely get to pointing other peoples posts tonight or tomorrow (satirically) to generalize my opinion on the situation. I think the meme that I could use to describe it is "playing chess with a pigeon." Look it up. To be brief on what that post will contain, I don't like meta-clearing people, it's too forgiving/easy to write someone off. Others have pointed out things that would lean town on him because of the meta while I beg to differ. Also the backlashing I'll agree could go either way and is null. Blos pointed out something recently where my head is that he is posting things to appear town. (#504) For Silverscrys, no- I'm back to null because his posts match with how I'm viewing his mindset. Could still be scum but my loose prodvote didn't spawn anything and I haven't seen anything change since with how he posts. [b]unvote[/b] I think the bolding isn't working and idk why, seems this curse client is frustrating.
@Kraj, Proph, Brinatoo, Hunger[/b] Pick a number 1-25, there is likely a wrong answer, but there may not be a right answer. If you do not respond within your next two posts you will be voted for.
Silver, is your vote on Blosc? You said you think it's likely he's scum, I think that's a great reason to vote for someone.
I voted him at the end of my least T/S then switched to Matowar because Proph's post convinced me waiting another Day or two might be better. With Seppel and Proph both pushing against it I don't think he's a viable lynch.
Plus most of my scum read is based on him bussing you so I'd have to assume you're scum. I'm sure you don't want that, hmm?
I voted him at the end of my least T/S then switched to Matowar because Proph's post convinced me waiting another Day or two might be better. With Seppel and Proph both pushing against it I don't think he's a viable lynch.
Plus most of my scum read is based on him bussing you so I'd have to assume you're scum. I'm sure you don't want that, hmm?
I don't really mind what you think of me, if he flips scum and you want me lynched, I'll always do my best to prevent my lunch by discussing whatever with you. Worst case scenario, I'm lynched, but if it's because Blosc flipped scum, I think that's a very agreeable trade off that would benefit town more than harm it.
I don't really mind what you think of me, if he flips scum and you want me lynched, I'll always do my best to prevent my lunch by discussing whatever with you. Worst case scenario, I'm lynched, but if it's because Blosc flipped scum, I think that's a very agreeable trade off that would benefit town more than harm it.
Ugh. The problem is I almost think you're town now, and if Blos isn't bussing you he might be town too.
I'm going to have to iso you both probably. Maybe I'll turn it into a double PBPA. That'll probably have to wait until tomorrow though.
Ugh. The problem is I almost think you're town now, and if Blos isn't bussing you he might be town too.
Do you think the only scenario in which Blosc is scum is one in which he is bussing me? Do you not think it is possible that he could also be scum trying to push a weak case on a player who sparsely posted then went v/la, and when that player responded and addressed the horrible case, decided to refuse to reply continuously and is now v/la? I just feel like the way in which the case was made, pushed, and responded to upon my return are highly indicative of his alignment. Nothing about it seems town, genuine, or with good intentions.
I'm going to have to iso you both probably. Maybe I'll turn it into a double PBPA. That'll probably have to wait until tomorrow though.
@Hunger: My role PM also had an incorrect win condition (survive to endgame) which Iso graciously corrected to the standard town wincon... without actually telling me what it is, so I assume it's in to OP.
Do you think the only scenario in which Blosc is scum is one in which he is bussing me? Do you not think it is possible that he could also be scum trying to push a weak case on a player who sparsely posted then went v/la, and when that player responded and addressed the horrible case, decided to refuse to reply continuously and is now v/la? I just feel like the way in which the case was made, pushed, and responded to upon my return are highly indicative of his alignment. Nothing about it seems town, genuine, or with good intentions.
He had no way of knowing you were going to go V/LA (to my knowledge).
So if he is scum, he either decided to tunnel you starting on page 2 hoping he could get the mislynch based solely on the fact that you seemed to have a stronger read on GJ than is reasonable. Or he's bussing you.
It seems to me the most likely scenarios are:
1) You're both scum and he's bussing you.
2) You're both town and he's really, really tenacious.
If it helps, I like to lock in on something early day one that I feel cannot come from town, and fixate on it. It forces people to acknowledge the wagon, commit to opinions on it, and interact with the gamestate around me and my target. So it provides data to look at for who ignored it, who subtly encouraged it without voting, and who shows a genuine thought process in terms of my alignment and actions, and the person I'm pushing.
I strongly think Ghosting is scum.
His early game read just did not come from a town player.
His reaction to the push on him did not come from a town player.
He's effectively attacking playstyle (not engaging with scum reads), rather than my behavior, because it's the only thing he can attack.
I highly encourage you to read back through my posts all game. I've fixated on him as scum, but not to the exclusion of generating reads on the rest of game. I just have a ton of town reads, with only 4-5 players who are not a town read.
This makes Ghosting even more likely scum in a vacuum, because I mean, someone is scum. 3-4 someones, probably.
This was just a month ago or so. I was Eidolonic in that game.
I latched onto Baramur as 'this did not come from town' like two hours into day one, and did not let up until they were lynched. (They were scum).
This is not me claiming I'm infallible, though my reads that game were obviously insane, but showcasing that this playstyle is how I prefer to play on day one. Identify something that is not how town acts, and latch on until they die, while still engaging with other town reads primarily.
I also explain the 'will not interact with scum reads' thing in that game, and you will see Proph interacting with me and treating me the same as he is in this game, too. He is in that game as Prophylaxis.
You will see how people treat me meta wise that know me, where I am 'self resolving' which will explain why it doesn't bother me that Proph is doing this.
As a side note, there was a lot of weird emotional things happen that game where one of the scum completely and utterly lost his mind, so it's not...really a great read. I almost replaced out and it'll be what the game is remembered for, rather than the fact that scum team conceded after 2 were publicly confirmed scum, and 2 others lynched, by night two.
Bloscovi I keep reading your posts and thinking "oh my gosh whoever posted this is so town, let's see who it is... Oh goddammit it's Bloscovi again. So much for getting another townread."
In all seriousness, I've not only responded to what's below already, I've actually asked you to elaborate and provide examples and you still won't...but you'll continue to post the thoughts. I'll respond to them again.
His early game read just did not come from a town player.
Which read, the GJ read? Can you explain how it doesn't come from a town player?
His reaction to the push on him did not come from a town player.
How does my reaction not come from a town player? Logically guided defense followed by scumhunting, request for discussion, don't come from town? But refusing to answer questions and misrepresenting the truth do come from town? Interesting.
He's effectively attacking playstyle (not engaging with scum reads), rather than my behavior, because it's the only thing he can attack.
Again, I am NOT attacking your playstyle. Yes, I pointed out that you refusing to answer my questions and elaborate on your reads is scummy -- calling it a playstyle doesn't make it town. ADDITIONALLY, I attacked various other parts of your "argument", which you also didn't acknowledge. You're yet again misrepresenting me and reducing my argument to something it's not. I'm seeing a trend here...
[qupte]I highly encourage you to read back through my posts all game. I've fixated on him as scum, but not to the exclusion of generating reads on the rest of game. I just have a ton of town reads, with only 4-5 players who are not a town read.[/quote]
You have literally asked everyone why they aren't voting for me more than once, and said that everyone should be, more than once. These posts are included in my notes. You are doing your best to create a wagon on me and have been consistently and persistently.
This makes Ghosting even more likely scum in a vacuum, because I mean, someone is scum. 3-4 someones, probably.
What infallible logic! "Ghosting is scum because someone is scum."
This was just a month ago or so. I was Eidolonic in that game.
So are we using meta as defense? Should I then link you to Ace Attorney, and that should clear me as town? Or would you say it's not a good defense? Because it's the defense you're using, and it's a horrible one.
I would edit that photo out because I think I'll get a warning for it lol, and realistically the comparison isn't even as accurate as the reality: he literally said "well someone has to be scum, so it's Ghosting!".
Your reads on these players cannot be tied into me whatsoever. Pretend I don't exist, if that's easier.
If you want to defend yourself, figuring out the game and finding scum is how you need to do so, rather than attacking playstyle.
Here's a thought experiment: isn't proposing thought experiments interacting with your scumreads? Because you refuse to respond to my refute to your argument for that exact reason...
Bloscovi I keep reading your posts and thinking "oh my gosh whoever posted this is so town, let's see who it is... Oh goddammit it's Bloscovi again. So much for getting another townread."
Frustrating.
Can you respond to #624?
Also, your townread of Blosc sounds incredibly crafted. Let's get some elaboration, why does he read so incredibly town to you? Do you feel that his behaviour is inherently town as well, or simply his alignment?
I will interact with my scum reads about anything other than my read on them, or their read on me.
I've said this multiple times.
Will you genuinely not at all? Like you absolutely refuse to? If you are town, that's really frustrating and just like person to person I feel that you're really limiting beneficial discussion and as town I'm always down to tak more to my reads and to expand on my arguments as to why they're scum because if I really, really think someone is scum, I don't want my response to be left at them pointing out how weak my argument is and paragraphs upon paragraphs of refute.
Additionally, you must know you're totally not being honest when you say that "all I've done is attack your playstyle". There's pagss, posts upon posts, paragraphs upon paragraphs of refute and discussion on my end. You know that's not the case. Like I get you say you think I'm scum, but if you're town, why lead the town astray like that with misinformation? That's why I think you're scum, among other things of course. It's the motivations I see behind your posts, your disingenuous behaviour.
If you are town and are lynched, you still win with town.
You are fixing almost solely on me, and on defense, and doing very little to generate reads on any other player.
This is not a town mindset. Even if I am scum (I'm not), there are still multiple other scum.
You catch up, and instead of trying to figure out the game, you focus exclusively on defense. It's self-preservation, pure and simple.
I'm not focusing solely on you, that's yet another misrep.
I've questioned Seppel in a way that suggests I am suspicious of him, I've openly called Mato scummy. If you read any of my notes you'd see the various reads presented there. I'm focusing particularly on you because you are attempting to create a case on me, and I am responding. What you're asking is for me to ignore your misconstrued points and illegitimate case, and to turn my attention away from you and onto someone else; I won't do that.
I've straight up stated why I think you are scum multiple times, but you keep trying to defend against an indefensible point.
Which makes me think you're even more likely to be scum.
I think you're scum because I don't think you could have had the read you had on GJ, based on the content GJ provided.
I think you made up ***** for the town read, because you are scum who knows he is town, and had the benefit of too much information. You saw me town read him with no reasoning, and your instinct was to go 'Yep, you're right, he's town, let me hop on that read'.
That is not something you can defend against. What can you say? 'lol I had that town read for serious though'.
But instead you try to drag me into a logic/semantic/playstyle bull***** in a way that town never does. You lack scumhunting, you lack townhunting,you lack any kind of mindset that I can see coming from a town player who replaces in, sees they're being scum read (by only 1-2 people). You're focusing on self-preservation at the expense of almost anything else, and trying to use rhethoric and logic in place of solving the game.
I will never change my read on you barring mod confirmation.
I want you dead.
And this is the last I'll talk about my read on you, because you keep badgering me about things that I've said multiple times. If you can't read my posts, that's not my problem.
If people who aren't you want me to talk about my scum read on you, I happily will.
I've straight up stated why I think you are scum multiple times, but you keep trying to defend against an indefensible point.
Which makes me think you're even more likely to be scum.
I think you're scum because I don't think you could have had the read you had on GJ, based on the content GJ provided.
I think you made up ***** for the town read, because you are scum who knows he is town, and had the benefit of too much information. You saw me town read him with no reasoning, and your instinct was to go 'Yep, you're right, he's town, let me hop on that read'.
That is not something you can defend against. What can you say? 'lol I had that town read for serious though'.
But instead you try to drag me into a logic/semantic/playstyle bull***** in a way that town never does. You lack scumhunting, you lack townhunting,you lack any kind of mindset that I can see coming from a town player who replaces in, sees they're being scum read (by only 1-2 people). You're focusing on self-preservation at the expense of almost anything else, and trying to use rhethoric and logic in place of solving the game.
I will never change my read on you barring mod confirmation.
I want you dead.
And this is the last I'll talk about my read on you, because you keep badgering me about things that I've said multiple times. If you can't read my posts, that's not my problem.
If people who aren't you want me to talk about my scum read on you, I happily will.
But I've talked about it ad nauseum.
So, basically, you're still not going to respond my questions, and you're going to summarise our discussion as "it's nothing, we've already talked about it enough".
I've brought up new points, and you ignored those. Ones not even related to us, and you ignored them. What about that? Like how is this so openly happening just like in AA and nobody's blinking an eye except for TS? I'm genuinely just shocked it's happening again.
I could literally compile a post with 10+ questions that have not at all been answered, requests that haven't been met, posts that have been misconstrued, etc., and you'd just respond with: no I answered them and then ignore everything and just say "I want you dead, you're scum!". It's mindblowing.
And my scum read on Hunger is based on seeing a lot of hunger in the past. And I can't see the towniness in his voice this time. He seems unnecessarily confrontational, which is absent from his towngame.
I had too many townreads so I moved Huntzilla, Hunger, and Kraj off the townbloc.
My gut still thinks that Hunger is town due to the role PM thing (that was the exact thought process I had as well with regards to Bloscovi's role PM) but I'm just inclined to throw away that piece of evidence entirely lest I run straight into a poster saying "HI I'M ISO AND I'M SCREWING YOU".
I really liked Kraj's earlier posts but he's dropped off, and the vote on not_a_gimmick purely based on flavorgaming kind of makes me want to shake Kraj and go "WHY".
Your relationship with Bloscovi is very interesting. You're dismissing a wagon on him before it's even taken off, it just seems very reactive of you.
Additionally, saying he's not an option to potentially day 4? I just feel like you're clearing a player so definitively for such a long time. The relationship is one I'm not sure I understand.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
[b]Vote: Kraj{/b]
[b]@Kraj, Proph, Brinatoo, Hunger[/b] Pick a number 1-25, there is likely a wrong answer, but there may not be a right answer. If you do not respond within your next two posts you will be voted for.
I have updated my notes, I want to see where this Kraj deal goes. I'm also interested in Matowar.
There is waaaaaay to much unprompted role info ITT. Loose lips sink ships, folks.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Considering that Blos wanted to use a gimmick account he doesn't get the benefit of meta Proph. You guys are trying to have your cake and eat it too and I think the way you and Blos are playing with private information is not good for Mafia games in general. Bloscovi choose to use a gimmick so that we couldn't meta him but you know who he is and try to give him cred as a good player through your experience with him. So basically he gets the benefit of meta without the drawback. No, that's a very cheap way to play the game and I'm sad to see you play it out like this.
Excellent question. My first inclination would be Ghosting. Buddied with Proph could also be a think but hiding in plain sight like this seems like a much weaker line of play.
And as much as I think he's likely scum, I don't think that wagon's going to go anywhere until day 2 or 3 at the earliest with Seppel and Proph both against it.
@Seppel:
You said Blos is obviously town, do you know his meta too or is there something more than that?
I mean, nothing is set in stone. We are all just trying to figure things out but Bloscovi's interactions with Ghosting are gross.
Being productive member of society is boring, but necessary.
If you drink enough coffee you won't care if there's people around to talk to, though, so you can talk to yourself!
Because I'm apparently not capable of avoiding distractions when I need to.
Or it's the fact that I've seen games go sideways did to role discussions that are highly unprompted. Some of my best games as scum occurred because of subtle discussions narrowing down who has PRs and who doesnt. ITT it isn't even subtle. So I'm more annoyed we're doing the hard work for the scum.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Unfortunately, Blosc refuses to address my questions and concerns, and is now v/la...
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
His most recent post is along similar lines of what we have been discussing with flavor. I tend to agree that there is more to the Bond role than what we know, but I'm not entirely sold on that making NAG scum. I guess now that I think about it I don't like that Kraj is totally bought into flavor-gaming and assumes that the fact that NAG doesn't fear a NK must mean he is scum while his entire attack on TS was predicated on not thinking through both sides of what it means for NAG being town and scum. Like, the fact that he has a pretty well substantiated lover claim seems like a pretty good reason to not fear a NK at this stage in the game, or you know he is Bond and is likely difficult to kill regardless of alignment so not sure why he couldn't be town/neutral that thinks he has a good chance to survive. Like, his suspicion I understand, but the conclusion that he must be scum and deserves a vote seems like a bit of a disconnect from his previous play.
I'm trying to figure out what scum has to gain with that attack on NAG though. It is a pretty risky attack for a scum in that position to make with most people accepting that they are indeed lovers. I want to see more of him when/if he fully catches up. After reading that I have him in my scum lean pile at the moment for the disconnect between his behavior and what he pushed TS for as well as his flimsy Mindreaver attack.
So, what did you see in his iso?
@Kraj - Reconcile your attack on TS for not thinking through both town and scum motivations of NAG's claim while you are voting NAG here and seemingly not considering the town/neutral motivations.
@Jobie - No thanks, I don't do extortion. Vote away.
So, you are saying your PM also only says "Good Guy" with no mention of Town in it?
I also would like to see Hunt come back. I was already leaning scum on him and his lurkiness isn't helping.
I still think TS is scum and I'll likely get to pointing other peoples posts tonight or tomorrow (satirically) to generalize my opinion on the situation. I think the meme that I could use to describe it is "playing chess with a pigeon." Look it up. To be brief on what that post will contain, I don't like meta-clearing people, it's too forgiving/easy to write someone off. Others have pointed out things that would lean town on him because of the meta while I beg to differ. Also the backlashing I'll agree could go either way and is null. Blos pointed out something recently where my head is that he is posting things to appear town. (#504) For Silverscrys, no- I'm back to null because his posts match with how I'm viewing his mindset. Could still be scum but my loose prodvote didn't spawn anything and I haven't seen anything change since with how he posts. [b]unvote[/b] I think the bolding isn't working and idk why, seems this curse client is frustrating.
10, what number do you pick?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Plus most of my scum read is based on him bussing you so I'd have to assume you're scum. I'm sure you don't want that, hmm?
I don't really mind what you think of me, if he flips scum and you want me lynched, I'll always do my best to prevent my lunch by discussing whatever with you. Worst case scenario, I'm lynched, but if it's because Blosc flipped scum, I think that's a very agreeable trade off that would benefit town more than harm it.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I'm going to have to iso you both probably. Maybe I'll turn it into a double PBPA. That'll probably have to wait until tomorrow though.
Do you think the only scenario in which Blosc is scum is one in which he is bussing me? Do you not think it is possible that he could also be scum trying to push a weak case on a player who sparsely posted then went v/la, and when that player responded and addressed the horrible case, decided to refuse to reply continuously and is now v/la? I just feel like the way in which the case was made, pushed, and responded to upon my return are highly indicative of his alignment. Nothing about it seems town, genuine, or with good intentions.
Should be interesting, I look forward to it.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Is this in reference to Silvercry not posting his PBPAs tomorrow, or because people are calling Blosc scum?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I keep getting those two mixed up in my head and realizing right before I post.
So if he is scum, he either decided to tunnel you starting on page 2 hoping he could get the mislynch based solely on the fact that you seemed to have a stronger read on GJ than is reasonable. Or he's bussing you.
It seems to me the most likely scenarios are:
1) You're both scum and he's bussing you.
2) You're both town and he's really, really tenacious.
I strongly think Ghosting is scum.
His early game read just did not come from a town player.
His reaction to the push on him did not come from a town player.
He's effectively attacking playstyle (not engaging with scum reads), rather than my behavior, because it's the only thing he can attack.
I highly encourage you to read back through my posts all game. I've fixated on him as scum, but not to the exclusion of generating reads on the rest of game. I just have a ton of town reads, with only 4-5 players who are not a town read.
This makes Ghosting even more likely scum in a vacuum, because I mean, someone is scum. 3-4 someones, probably.
If you want confirmation of my day one meta, here is an off-site game I played on another name: http://www.fantasystrike.com/forums/index.php?threads/witch-hunt-14.12039/
This was just a month ago or so. I was Eidolonic in that game.
I latched onto Baramur as 'this did not come from town' like two hours into day one, and did not let up until they were lynched. (They were scum).
This is not me claiming I'm infallible, though my reads that game were obviously insane, but showcasing that this playstyle is how I prefer to play on day one. Identify something that is not how town acts, and latch on until they die, while still engaging with other town reads primarily.
I also explain the 'will not interact with scum reads' thing in that game, and you will see Proph interacting with me and treating me the same as he is in this game, too. He is in that game as Prophylaxis.
You will see how people treat me meta wise that know me, where I am 'self resolving' which will explain why it doesn't bother me that Proph is doing this.
Here's a thought exercise for you.
I am modconfirmed town.
Who is scum, and why?
Your reads on these players cannot be tied into me whatsoever. Pretend I don't exist, if that's easier.
If you want to defend yourself, figuring out the game and finding scum is how you need to do so, rather than attacking playstyle.
Frustrating.
It was actually to someone going vla on the previous page thanks curse.
Which read, the GJ read? Can you explain how it doesn't come from a town player?
How does my reaction not come from a town player? Logically guided defense followed by scumhunting, request for discussion, don't come from town? But refusing to answer questions and misrepresenting the truth do come from town? Interesting.
Again, I am NOT attacking your playstyle. Yes, I pointed out that you refusing to answer my questions and elaborate on your reads is scummy -- calling it a playstyle doesn't make it town. ADDITIONALLY, I attacked various other parts of your "argument", which you also didn't acknowledge. You're yet again misrepresenting me and reducing my argument to something it's not. I'm seeing a trend here...
[qupte]I highly encourage you to read back through my posts all game. I've fixated on him as scum, but not to the exclusion of generating reads on the rest of game. I just have a ton of town reads, with only 4-5 players who are not a town read.[/quote]
You have literally asked everyone why they aren't voting for me more than once, and said that everyone should be, more than once. These posts are included in my notes. You are doing your best to create a wagon on me and have been consistently and persistently.
What infallible logic! "Ghosting is scum because someone is scum."
So are we using meta as defense? Should I then link you to Ace Attorney, and that should clear me as town? Or would you say it's not a good defense? Because it's the defense you're using, and it's a horrible one.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Here's a thought experiment: isn't proposing thought experiments interacting with your scumreads? Because you refuse to respond to my refute to your argument for that exact reason...
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Can you respond to #624?
Also, your townread of Blosc sounds incredibly crafted. Let's get some elaboration, why does he read so incredibly town to you? Do you feel that his behaviour is inherently town as well, or simply his alignment?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
(last post until someone else posts, i'm so sorry)
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I've said this multiple times.
You are fixing almost solely on me, and on defense, and doing very little to generate reads on any other player.
This is not a town mindset. Even if I am scum (I'm not), there are still multiple other scum.
You catch up, and instead of trying to figure out the game, you focus exclusively on defense. It's self-preservation, pure and simple.
Will you genuinely not at all? Like you absolutely refuse to? If you are town, that's really frustrating and just like person to person I feel that you're really limiting beneficial discussion and as town I'm always down to tak more to my reads and to expand on my arguments as to why they're scum because if I really, really think someone is scum, I don't want my response to be left at them pointing out how weak my argument is and paragraphs upon paragraphs of refute.
Additionally, you must know you're totally not being honest when you say that "all I've done is attack your playstyle". There's pagss, posts upon posts, paragraphs upon paragraphs of refute and discussion on my end. You know that's not the case. Like I get you say you think I'm scum, but if you're town, why lead the town astray like that with misinformation? That's why I think you're scum, among other things of course. It's the motivations I see behind your posts, your disingenuous behaviour.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I'm not focusing solely on you, that's yet another misrep.
I've questioned Seppel in a way that suggests I am suspicious of him, I've openly called Mato scummy. If you read any of my notes you'd see the various reads presented there. I'm focusing particularly on you because you are attempting to create a case on me, and I am responding. What you're asking is for me to ignore your misconstrued points and illegitimate case, and to turn my attention away from you and onto someone else; I won't do that.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Which makes me think you're even more likely to be scum.
I think you're scum because I don't think you could have had the read you had on GJ, based on the content GJ provided.
I think you made up ***** for the town read, because you are scum who knows he is town, and had the benefit of too much information. You saw me town read him with no reasoning, and your instinct was to go 'Yep, you're right, he's town, let me hop on that read'.
That is not something you can defend against. What can you say? 'lol I had that town read for serious though'.
But instead you try to drag me into a logic/semantic/playstyle bull***** in a way that town never does. You lack scumhunting, you lack townhunting,you lack any kind of mindset that I can see coming from a town player who replaces in, sees they're being scum read (by only 1-2 people). You're focusing on self-preservation at the expense of almost anything else, and trying to use rhethoric and logic in place of solving the game.
I will never change my read on you barring mod confirmation.
I want you dead.
And this is the last I'll talk about my read on you, because you keep badgering me about things that I've said multiple times. If you can't read my posts, that's not my problem.
If people who aren't you want me to talk about my scum read on you, I happily will.
But I've talked about it ad nauseum.
So, basically, you're still not going to respond my questions, and you're going to summarise our discussion as "it's nothing, we've already talked about it enough".
I've brought up new points, and you ignored those. Ones not even related to us, and you ignored them. What about that? Like how is this so openly happening just like in AA and nobody's blinking an eye except for TS? I'm genuinely just shocked it's happening again.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1