Paraphrasing (usually) isn't just changing some words, but I'm new here so maybe I'm wrong. I wouldn't post anything like my role pm to be safe, I think tomsloger got modkilled recently for it.
It's up to Iso either way, ultimately. He's the mod. Hope you don't get mod-killed.
Anyway... I don't think I want you lynched now, though I'm really frustrated.
I do not want Atog lynched under any circumstances for [reasons]. I'm leaning towards Brinatoo and Seppel as scum at present.
Current Seppel thoughts:
Hunger counter claimed him on invincible.
IF Ghosting is Doctor, there are probably 4 town power roles assuming only one of Hunger/Seppel is actually invincible.
Seppel claimed to be permanently invincible, but wanted someone to protect him and/or take his item.
Conclusion:
Seppel false claimed and wants someone to target him.
1) scum!Seppel is a Paranoid Gun Owner.
1a) DO NOT TARGET SEPPEL IF HE IS NOT THE LYNCH
2) scum!Seppel steals the items of people who target him, or does some other nasty thing to them.
2a) DO NOT TARGET SEPPEL IF HE IS NOT THE LYNCH
OR
3) town!Seppel is a different power role trying to avoid the night kill
3a) Two town power roles are gambiting.
4) town!Seppel does good things to townies who target him, like sees their alignment or something?
4a) Yeah, doubtful.
OR
5) Hunger is scum counter claiming on a widely town read player to attempt a counter wagon to save his lying scum buddy Ghosting.
5a) Ahahahaha. Yeah, I don't think so. At the time, Jobie/Atog, Matowar, or IMAB would have been vastly better counter wagons.
OR
6) There are two bulletproof townies and probably 5 power roles with only 3-4 scum.
6a) Scum have insane power roles, there is an extra scum, or at least one scum is a strongman. Wait, Kraj claimed strongman, didn't he? Maybe he was Godfather and strongman? I still doubt this world exists.
Vote: Seppel
And just to reiterate: DO NOT TARGET SEPPEL WITH NIGHT ACTIONS
Please. You will probably die or something else terrible will happen to you. He bread crumbed this SO HARD when he claimed I don't know how I didn't catch it sooner. Or we can lynch him now and not have to worry about it
Unless someone has a more convincing analysis of the Hunger vs Seppel thing.
fake edit @Mindreaver:
I can't give reasons without claiming.
I'll make you a deal, help me lynch Seppel and I'll claim in my first post of D2. It'll be worth it, I promise, and we'll be ahead enough that we won't need [redacted].
That's a really good argument. I'm going to go re-read/re-evaluate Seppel, and make up my mind there. One thing I really like though, is that if he's not lying, the lynch shouldn't kill him.
@Ghosting - Just so we're clear, when I'm alive tomorrow I'll believe you, and all is forgiven I think you've either bought yourself another day of living, or you've signed your death warrant (Since the scum can't go through your protection without the Kraj's key, you're quite a target now). I think it goes without saying, use your protection, leave the key where it is (or do both if you want, I don't see much downside to that).
@Ghosting-I knew there was something totally fishy about the I'm surely going to get night killed comment and then the actual claim. That is where I put the pressure on you. Why would you try to make it sound suspicious on my part when I was dead on the money?
You actually made a pretty big deal out of it too? If you were a Town Doctor wouldn't you be thinking "TS read me like a book, good on him, he's town." Like that's the only thing I'm really scratching my head at.
The more I look at the claim, and read back through, the less I like it.
He's self resolving as Doctor. Either the known vig dies and we lynch him the next day or scum will kill him for us.
Get on this Seppel wagon, the worst that can happen is No Lynch or he gets hung for false claiming while we're ahead. I've not been sure of much, but I'm sure Seppel is scum.
Or he just kills off me, you, Proph, and goes 'see? Mindreaver is alive, I protected him!'
I'm not completely opposed to a Seppel wagon, I guess.
Just I can see worlds where Ghosting is scum, and the scum team had Kraj's protection piercing item, and town has some protection with Hunger/Seppel/other items.
Well, Mindreaver's item has to be passed N2 at the latest (N1 reload, D2 shoot, N2 pass). Would they leave the vig alive that long? Hrm. I guess, maybe.
I don't have the time right now, and I'm heading out, but if you have the time in next day or two, could you compile all of the votes Hardwood and yourself accumulated?
I recall finding both wagons to be really sketchy, especially the push on you.
It might be because it was in opposition to Ghosting, who I really wanted dead, but..
@Bloscovi:
Votes on me:
1) Seppel - OMGUS?
2) not_a_gimmick - pressure on HWP's replacement?
3) Brinatoo - I moved Hunt and Blos from null to lean town two hours after posting a t/s list.
I think TappingStones FoS me after I replaced in, too.
Votes on Hardwood_Paneling:
1) Gentleman Johnny - ended RVS with no explanation.
2) Matowar77 - says HWP isn't American, or something.
3) not_a_gimmick - trying too hard
4) Mindreaver - the riddle
5) TappingStones - talks about NaG, votes HWP (I think they had similar avatars at the time?)
6) imabusinessman - Lynch-a-lurker
Kraj sent him a FoS if that counts?
His longest wagon was only two if you go by vote counts (Matowar77, TappingStones).
Mine was four, I believe (IMAB inherited from HWP, Seppel, Brinatoo, NaG). This is probably the only "real" wagon.
Seppel or Brinatoo are absolutely plausible scum there.
Brinatoo had a really opportunistic-feeling vote on you, I called him out on it soon after, and he played it off as being fishing for reactions or something.
That's where my town read on him started to dwindle a bit.
I am probably AFK for the next 24-26 hours though. If people have questions for me, quote this post so it alerts me, and I'll get to them when I'm back around, or when I stick my nose in to take a break.
meh, I was gonna ignore it but it is a worthy question...
In Final Fantasy I was suspicious of you because of your "Hunt is playing badly, I think he's town, but he deserves to die anyway". This was after I literally proved that Hunt's abilities made him confirmed town. Nobody even refuted my reasons for Hunt being confirmed town, they just kept attacking him anyway. But you particularly drew my ire from the group because you were townreading him and declaring you didn't care if he died. (Hint: it's why I'm scumreading GJ, but I'm scumreading him way harder than I ever did you in Final Fantasy).
In this game I didn't like it when you were declaring that I should be shot. I firmly believe that townies would just say "shoot a lurker, anyone will do" and that it really shouldn't matter which one. Instead you and several other players were trying to direct the vig to particular players. It turned out right in the end but it's one of those "the right play for the wrong reasons" kind of thing. And while other players were also trying to direct shots, I just don't have a townread on you like I do for Seppel and Tappingstones.
@IMAB:
Since you seem to have a strong town read on Seppel, how do you feel about Hunger's #1197 and my #1263? I'd rather eat crow than lynch town if possible, but I really don't like his claim compared with Hunger's counter claim.
@Ghosting - Just so we're clear, when I'm alive tomorrow I'll believe you, and all is forgiven I think you've either bought yourself another day of living, or you've signed your death warrant (Since the scum can't go through your protection without the Kraj's key, you're quite a target now). I think it goes without saying, use your protection, leave the key where it is (or do both if you want, I don't see much downside to that).
I fully plan on protecting you, but why would scum ever target you over me? I don't see the sense in it when I'm blatantly saying I'm going to be protecting you tonight. They'd be wasting their NK, and we'd both live. I only see them ever targeting me, unless I'm missing something?
Has anyone gone back and read the posts between me and Brinatoo where he claims a bunch of questions/comments "don't make sense" or are "philosophical not real"? There's a lot that I found very alignment indicative there, but I know I've had more than a few quote walls, so I doubt everyone read everything in all honesty lol.
I only see them ever targeting me, unless I'm missing something?
Just that you're practically tarred and feathered. They might target someone else and hope we lynch you tomorrow, like Proph/Blos/Me.
Bleh. Any thoughts on Seppel? I'd like to lynch him. Worst case, like Mindreaver said, is no lynch but we're already ahead since he got Kraj. If Seppel flips town he shouldn't have gambited. I'm pretty sure he's scum though.
I suppose I could settle for Brinatoo if that's what everyone else wants, though. I'm sort of null-leaning scum on him.
I've read you vs Brinatoo a few times over the last day or so. I thought it was bussing at first, but maybe I read him right and you wrong. I need to iso him again but I probably won't be able to until tomorrow.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm still v/la until tomorrow night so haven't been paying close attention to anything, just posting whenever I have a second to make a quick post. I'm headed to bed now and my brain is drained from hours of chemistry homework, so I'll get to your questions tomorrow.
I must have totally missed something. Seppel is claiming that he can't be lynched?
I think testing that is fine. Although Seppel lies a lot as town.
If we try to lynch him and there is a no lynch then is that proving he's town though? I'm too busy to look through him at the moment but I'll go back and look at what exactly the claim was tonight.
@Ghosting - Just so we're clear, when I'm alive tomorrow I'll believe you, and all is forgiven I think you've either bought yourself another day of living, or you've signed your death warrant (Since the scum can't go through your protection without the Kraj's key, you're quite a target now). I think it goes without saying, use your protection, leave the key where it is (or do both if you want, I don't see much downside to that).
I fully plan on protecting you, but why would scum ever target you over me? I don't see the sense in it when I'm blatantly saying I'm going to be protecting you tonight. They'd be wasting their NK, and we'd both live. I only see them ever targeting me, unless I'm missing something?
If you've claimed false, I'ma die That's all I mean.
Basically my laptop can't fall into mafia hands because it makes its holder unlynchable and unkillable. I'm Boris Grishenko and true to my character's catchphrase "I'M INVINCIBLE!" I am in fact invincible.
While I hold it, I have unlimited uses of it, but it becomes a one-shot item if someone else comes into possession of it.
Basically my laptop can't fall into mafia hands because it makes its holder unlynchable and unkillable. I'm Boris Grishenko and true to my character's catchphrase "I'M INVINCIBLE!" I am in fact invincible.
While I hold it, I have unlimited uses of it, but it becomes a one-shot item if someone else comes into possession of it.
TS, here is the claim for refernce
So if the mafia has this item we basically can't win? I mean there might be someone who can steal items but if that person is dead do we auto lose? That leads me to believe this claim is false and he is town OR it is true and Seppel is town.
If Seppel is town, was just invincible, and was afraid somebody would steal it (which isn't game over for us, mind you, it would just become a one-shot self-doctor), the worst play in the world is saying "I have this item, here is what it does".
If he's got a different ability, say PGO, that claim looks shady. Particularly this piece:
Also I might as well come out in full that I _need_ a watcher on me. Or someone to protect items from being stolen. Or a townie that can steal items. Or someone who can prevent my item from being stolen. Because of my item (laptop computer), I guarantee that there's at least one of those roles in the game, likely one town and one scum with those roles.
You don't need a watcher, or a item-stealer. You could pass this to a townread, silently, so they didn't even know it existed.
Also this claim came when Seppel was under ZERO pressure.
How I would have played this as town:
1) Select my top townread
2) Pass him the laptop some night
3) Post in the thread "I passed a laptop to somebody, I'm not going to say what it does, but now that person knows I'm town".
At the very worst, he passes it to scum. But how is that different than "Come steal this, I know there is probably an item stealer, one twon and one scum? That's just random.
If Seppel is town, was just invincible, and was afraid somebody would steal it (which isn't game over for us, mind you, it would just become a one-shot self-doctor), the worst play in the world is saying "I have this item, here is what it does".
If he's got a different ability, say PGO, that claim looks shady. Particularly this piece:
Also I might as well come out in full that I _need_ a watcher on me. Or someone to protect items from being stolen. Or a townie that can steal items. Or someone who can prevent my item from being stolen. Because of my item (laptop computer), I guarantee that there's at least one of those roles in the game, likely one town and one scum with those roles.
You don't need a watcher, or a item-stealer. You could pass this to a townread, silently, so they didn't even know it existed.
Also this claim came when Seppel was under ZERO pressure.
How I would have played this as town:
1) Select my top townread
2) Pass him the laptop some night
3) Post in the thread "I passed a laptop to somebody, I'm not going to say what it does, but now that person knows I'm town".
At the very worst, he passes it to scum. But how is that different than "Come steal this, I know there is probably an item stealer, one twon and one scum? That's just random.
This is one of the best cases against behavior we've had this game. I've gotta believe Seppel doesn't have an item that does this. In Stargate Iso was an absorber of some sort that couldn't be vig shot, but he was a neutral SK.
-I don't want to lynch Matowar on day one. I freely admit part of this is a 'health of community' thing, where I want to give newbies a chance to play and improve, rather than repeatedly kill them on day one for being scummy
I am going to have disagree strongly here. Health of community means pushing bad behavior until it approves. What this attitude instead does is encourage bad behavior to continue, until you have people who have been playing for years doing stupid *****, like lying as town (obviously ignoring the <5% time where it could be necessary).
[quot=Ghosting]By pushing a mislynch, I meant be pushing a wagon that ends up being town.
Anyway, I may as well save everyone some time since the deadline is fairly soon. I'm the Town Doctor. Hence me thinking I'd automatically eat the NK, and instead decided a neutral claim that I could "prove" would prevent that from happening. I figured I could just sit back and pass items, heal people, without scum having any idea I'm a doctor; the role is also just controversial enough I could stay alive for a fairly long while so that I'm of use, at least for a couple days.[/quote]
Some part of me is happy I am 2 for 2 on roles that are too bastardly to exist. The other part is laughing at the irony of what I posted before it, and the last half is pissed off. In this particular instance, unless someone is a doctor or bodyguard, Ghosting is likely telling the truth, but ffs man. Just eat the NK next time. We might even get a watcher/WIFOM from the scum of not killing you.
My flavour mentions NAG’s and GJ’s character names in a way that makes me suspicious of them, hence my consistent suspicions of their claim.
I wasn't any less impressed when DCD tried that in the Clan game. Iso doesn't give flavor to players the can screw over alignments.
Quote from Blos »
But then again does scum doubt a neutral claim to that degree and try to push a lynch on them the way he did there? Hum. Not sure. Maybe?
Want more people talking about that and the mindset involved.
I could see him going as scum, me and Blos were pretty much left alone as neutral, a cop is obvious from Kraj's flip, so what role could I claim that would pass a cop test?
I could also see him just telling the truth about being scurred of night killed, even if he did it in a really stupid way. I would let a cc go through here.
Vote Seppel. I like the arguments being made for him, and I think thing for the town right now is to stop flipping rocks, and the let the cop/coppish role do what he does best.
Quote from IMAB »
(Hint: it's why I'm scumreading GJ, but I'm scumreading him way harder than I ever did you in Final Fantasy).
Calling me scum every game doesn't mean you can actually read me. Sure, you were correct in the Classic, but you could technically call everyone in this game scum, and say you caught 100% of the scum team. And the fact of the matter is you chose a method to this game that all it does is make you a question mark (by purposefully lurking). Maybe you will participate more in the game, in which case, more power to you. But in any event, I would be fine with you getting shot in the face. With a rocket launcher.
There's also the unfortunate side thing where I think Jobie-slot is more likely to be mafia, but... it's really *****ty to just immediately lynch someone who replaces in.
Words cannot describe the anger that is seething from me at reading this sentence.
Are you going to stop this bull***** and start playing to win? Your failure to optimally play to your win condition is reprehensible. It directly affects me. And I want to play optimally. So stop this garbage and start lynching scum.
I am so done with this game if this attitude continues.
Quote from Hunger » »
So can we lynch Seppel now?
You literally can't. I thought that would be enough to prove that I'm town.
If I were mafia, then without a living item stealer on the town team, it would be an autowin for mafia.
That's a really good argument. I'm going to go re-read/re-evaluate Seppel, and make up my mind there. One thing I really like though, is that if he's not lying, the lynch shouldn't kill him.
I secretly (openly) fullclaimed in my first post. You want proof? Search the mafia forum for the name.
So there you have it. You believe this is the long con? I'm invincible, and you want to waste the only constant resource we have available to win?
I'm done with this.
V/LA until June 20th. I don't have a night action, so my absence is no problem. It is my sincerest hope that you all get your heads out of your assets and Lynch either Jobie or Matowar.
If Seppel is town, was just invincible, and was afraid somebody would steal it (which isn't game over for us, mind you, it would just become a one-shot self-doctor), the worst play in the world is saying "I have this item, here is what it does".
If he's got a different ability, say PGO, that claim looks shady. Particularly this piece:
Also I might as well come out in full that I _need_ a watcher on me. Or someone to protect items from being stolen. Or a townie that can steal items. Or someone who can prevent my item from being stolen. Because of my item (laptop computer), I guarantee that there's at least one of those roles in the game, likely one town and one scum with those roles.
You don't need a watcher, or a item-stealer. You could pass this to a townread, silently, so they didn't even know it existed.
Also this claim came when Seppel was under ZERO pressure.
How I would have played this as town:
1) Select my top townread
2) Pass him the laptop some night
3) Post in the thread "I passed a laptop to somebody, I'm not going to say what it does, but now that person knows I'm town".
At the very worst, he passes it to scum. But how is that different than "Come steal this, I know there is probably an item stealer, one twon and one scum? That's just random.
If Seppel doesn't have a good way to respond to this then I will vote him.
He just went V/LA until the deadline. His defense was "I didn't read the rules about passing items."
He wouldn't be that mad about us verifying his claim unless he false claimed.
Come on TS. You wanted me to help you catch scum? Lynch this. The worst that can happen is we lynch a lying townie.
I like the case that has been made by several folks and one of the things I really look out for in Mafia is to let me team mates be right when they find scum. Seppel was on lean town for me for likely inaccurate/shoddy meta reads on my part. I've never seen him this active before and a lot of his reads mirrored mine.
I do want to give him a chance to answer to Mindreaver's very direct and strong challenge.
If Seppel is town, was just invincible, and was afraid somebody would steal it (which isn't game over for us, mind you, it would just become a one-shot self-doctor), the worst play in the world is saying "I have this item, here is what it does".
If he's got a different ability, say PGO, that claim looks shady. Particularly this piece:
Also I might as well come out in full that I _need_ a watcher on me. Or someone to protect items from being stolen. Or a townie that can steal items. Or someone who can prevent my item from being stolen. Because of my item (laptop computer), I guarantee that there's at least one of those roles in the game, likely one town and one scum with those roles.
You don't need a watcher, or a item-stealer. You could pass this to a townread, silently, so they didn't even know it existed.
Also this claim came when Seppel was under ZERO pressure.
How I would have played this as town:
1) Select my top townread
2) Pass him the laptop some night
3) Post in the thread "I passed a laptop to somebody, I'm not going to say what it does, but now that person knows I'm town".
At the very worst, he passes it to scum. But how is that different than "Come steal this, I know there is probably an item stealer, one twon and one scum? That's just random.
This is one of the best cases against behavior we've had this game. I've gotta believe Seppel doesn't have an item that does this. In Stargate Iso was an absorber of some sort that couldn't be vig shot, but he was a neutral SK.
So you just straight up didn't read my case on him. I made this exact point and your reaction to me was to get mad about me asking you to comment on it.
If we try to lynch him and there is a no lynch then is that proving he's town though? I'm too busy to look through him at the moment but I'll go back and look at what exactly the claim was tonight.
...No, it isn't. I also brought up this point in my EBWOP. So why did you say you read my case when you didn't?
Here's where I'm at, I'd like Ghosting to target Kraj tonight to get the Goldeneye eye and i want him to give it to Mindreaver. This will at least give us an proof that some of the things Ghosting has said are true. I don't want Ghosting dead. As opposed to Proph and Blos who are still chomping at the bit. Why?
I am good with looking through a scum team of Matowar/Jobie. Perhaps Matowar first but I want to look back at the interactions with Kraj first and I haven't had the time yet. Can someone clarify as best they can how this Turncoat or as Iso put it "Godfather" works? Was he likely to know his scummates or not?
Oh and I agree with what Seppel said earlier it might be that the scum was just never really in a good position to push a lynch. If anything review the wagon on me in the early game. People were trying to come after me including Scum!Kraj. If Matowar is scum he might legitimately be scared to post. If you remember postgame after getting killed on day one in AA he kept asking stuff about how to not get run up by TS and others. As scum he might try to make fluff posts and not scum hunt as we have seen.
VOTE:Matowar
Don't put him past L-2 yet. I'd like a claim and time to review the thread.
Why are you so certain Kraj was telling the truth about his item? He flipped scum and there is no evidence in his death post of an item. Even if he did have an item, why do you think he would tell the truth about what it does?
Basically my laptop can't fall into mafia hands because it makes its holder unlynchable and unkillable. I'm Boris Grishenko and true to my character's catchphrase "I'M INVINCIBLE!" I am in fact invincible.
While I hold it, I have unlimited uses of it, but it becomes a one-shot item if someone else comes into possession of it.
TS, here is the claim for refernce
So if the mafia has this item we basically can't win? I mean there might be someone who can steal items but if that person is dead do we auto lose? That leads me to believe this claim is false and he is town OR it is true and Seppel is town.
What do others think?
Can scum begin the game with that item?
No, it is an unreasonable claim as scum. He wouldn't have that item in it's claimed form of unlimited uses as scum. Unlynchable? Possibly. Bulletproof? Possibly. Both in an unlimited capacity with no drawback? No chance. Again, why are you assuming that he has to be telling the truth about his item? Especially considering you are confident he lies as town. Why if he is lying does it have to be town lying? This makes no sense to me that you draw the conclusion he is probably lying, but think that makes him town.
Hey Mindreaver I never read the rules about passing items. Thanks, eat a dock.
Funny that you thought my case was an amusing read signifying you actually read it and I brought this up as well, but you made no comment on it. Or anything in it for that matter. You also referenced the OP before, but missed this and missed the other multiple references to passing items. For someone so adamant on getting rid of that laptop you seem to be trying really hard to ignore this point.
You literally can't. I thought that would be enough to prove that I'm town.
If I were mafia, then without a living item stealer on the town team, it would be an autowin for mafia.
You have played enough mafia to know that this is a bs argument. Why so afraid of a lynch if you think it proves that you are town then? Seems like you would WANT us to lynch you if it proves that you are town. Which it still wouldn't. It could very easily be a one-shot effect. But that's a different matter that we can worry about IF it becomes relevant.
That's a really good argument. I'm going to go re-read/re-evaluate Seppel, and make up my mind there. One thing I really like though, is that if he's not lying, the lynch shouldn't kill him.
I secretly (openly) fullclaimed in my first post. You want proof? Search the mafia forum for the name.
So there you have it. You believe this is the long con? I'm invincible, and you want to waste the only constant resource we have available to win?
I'm done with this.
V/LA until June 20th. I don't have a night action, so my absence is no problem. It is my sincerest hope that you all get your heads out of your assets and Lynch either Jobie or Matowar.
Also Vote Jobie/Atog since it failed last time.
1. I searched for Kella, which he claimed in his first post. It was Seppel's role in Symbiote mafia. He was seemingly neutral there and I can't find his actual role as it says it's in the files section of the spectator forum which doesn't seem to exist. He claimed unlynchable/unkillable teleporter but then he self-voted and was lynched D2, but disappeared never to return as opposed to flipping. Something to do with his symbiotic pairing being disconnected effecting his ability. Game was a specialty so had a lot of crazy stuff going on. So not sure why he is so opposed to being the lynch here as town with that ability when in that game he even self-voted to prove it as a neutral.
2. The more I think about it, the more I don't like this push for Jobie. Yeah, he has a decent chance of being scum, but there has literally been no arguments for anything he has done that is scummy other than lurking. Again, he votes Jobie here instead of Mato despite being deadset on Mato being the vig and being for sure scum.
@Silver - Just to be clear, it's not a true cc. My role is a bit different, but does offer similar protection.
@Hunger:
Yeah, not a true counter claim, but like I pointed out earlier there's already two protective roles if you believe Ghosting and (probably) four town power roles. In a normal. The claim is awful and I want him dead for it.
@Hunger:
Yeah, not a true counter claim, but like I pointed out earlier there's already two protective roles if you believe Ghosting and (probably) four town power roles. In a normal. The claim is awful and I want him dead for it.
I don't think the number of power roles is a factor. If you count items, I suspect there are very few true vanillas. I think the number of claimed town protection is worrisome though with 3 claims so far.
Calling me scum every game doesn't mean you can actually read me. Sure, you were correct in the Classic, but you could technically call everyone in this game scum, and say you caught 100% of the scum team. And the fact of the matter is you chose a method to this game that all it does is make you a question mark (by purposefully lurking). Maybe you will participate more in the game, in which case, more power to you. But in any event, I would be fine with you getting shot in the face. With a rocket launcher.
I wanted to vote GJ but then I realized that maybe not making waves and staying even keeled is just his playstyle. But then when pressured on making a scum-case on me he ultimately said it didn't matter so whatever.
Curse particularly awful as of late. I've been forced to copy/paste my posts into notepad before posting them here. Completelly not functional on chrome and barely functional in I.E.
If Seppel is town, was just invincible, and was afraid somebody would steal it (which isn't game over for us, mind you, it would just become a one-shot self-doctor), the worst play in the world is saying "I have this item, here is what it does".
If he's got a different ability, say PGO, that claim looks shady. Particularly this piece:
Also I might as well come out in full that I _need_ a watcher on me. Or someone to protect items from being stolen. Or a townie that can steal items. Or someone who can prevent my item from being stolen. Because of my item (laptop computer), I guarantee that there's at least one of those roles in the game, likely one town and one scum with those roles.
You don't need a watcher, or a item-stealer. You could pass this to a townread, silently, so they didn't even know it existed.
Also this claim came when Seppel was under ZERO pressure.
How I would have played this as town:
1) Select my top townread
2) Pass him the laptop some night
3) Post in the thread "I passed a laptop to somebody, I'm not going to say what it does, but now that person knows I'm town".
At the very worst, he passes it to scum. But how is that different than "Come steal this, I know there is probably an item stealer, one twon and one scum? That's just random.
This is one of the best cases against behavior we've had this game. I've gotta believe Seppel doesn't have an item that does this. In Stargate Iso was an absorber of some sort that couldn't be vig shot, but he was a neutral SK.
So you just straight up didn't read my case on him. I made this exact point and your reaction to me was to get mad about me asking you to comment on it.
I questioned why you were specifically asking me about it. I know text is often hard to judge emotions off of but I wasn't mad at all. Why would you use a word like mad to describe me asking you that?
If we try to lynch him and there is a no lynch then is that proving he's town though? I'm too busy to look through him at the moment but I'll go back and look at what exactly the claim was tonight.
..No, it isn't. I also brought up this point in my EBWOP. So why did you say you read my case when you didn't?
I did read it, as I've already said but I wasn't paying much attention to the details because you were going after Seppel when i was trying to resolve my ideas about the lynch for the day, which at that time Seppel was no where on my radar. I didn't see it as something pertinent and as such kept on reading through. I would assume a lot of people have read some of my Bloscovi case the same way. Does everyone have the essence of my Bloscovi argument after the first time I talked about it? Probably not, and I wouldn't blame them as he's not near a lynch and there's so much action around Kraj, Ghosting, Jobie, and Matowar's slots.
Here's where I'm at, I'd like Ghosting to target Kraj tonight to get the Goldeneye eye and i want him to give it to Mindreaver. This will at least give us an proof that some of the things Ghosting has said are true. I don't want Ghosting dead. As opposed to Proph and Blos who are still chomping at the bit. Why?
I am good with looking through a scum team of Matowar/Jobie. Perhaps Matowar first but I want to look back at the interactions with Kraj first and I haven't had the time yet. Can someone clarify as best they can how this Turncoat or as Iso put it "Godfather" works? Was he likely to know his scummates or not?
Oh and I agree with what Seppel said earlier it might be that the scum was just never really in a good position to push a lynch. If anything review the wagon on me in the early game. People were trying to come after me including Scum!Kraj. If Matowar is scum he might legitimately be scared to post. If you remember postgame after getting killed on day one in AA he kept asking stuff about how to not get run up by TS and others. As scum he might try to make fluff posts and not scum hunt as we have seen.
VOTE:Matowar
Don't put him past L-2 yet. I'd like a claim and time to review the thread.
Why are you so certain Kraj was telling the truth about his item? He flipped scum and there is no evidence in his death post of an item. Even if he did have an item, why do you think he would tell the truth about what it does?
I'm not certain of anyone having any items outside of Mindreaver's gun. But the only way we could verify this item (that I am aware of) would be through Ghosting's ability. What is wrong with me wanting us to attempt to get an item? That's what Ghosting said his role does. Get an item and according to him give it to who we want to give it to.
Basically my laptop can't fall into mafia hands because it makes its holder unlynchable and unkillable. I'm Boris Grishenko and true to my character's catchphrase "I'M INVINCIBLE!" I am in fact invincible.
While I hold it, I have unlimited uses of it, but it becomes a one-shot item if someone else comes into possession of it.
TS, here is the claim for refernce
So if the mafia has this item we basically can't win? I mean there might be someone who can steal items but if that person is dead do we auto lose? That leads me to believe this claim is false and he is town OR it is true and Seppel is town.
No, it is an unreasonable claim as scum. He wouldn't have that item in it's claimed form of unlimited uses as scum. Unlynchable? Possibly. Bulletproof? Possibly. Both in an unlimited capacity with no drawback? No chance. Again, why are you assuming that he has to be telling the truth about his item? Especially considering you are confident he lies as town. Why if he is lying does it have to be town lying? This makes no sense to me that you draw the conclusion he is probably lying, but think that makes him town.
You didn't understand what I wrote. The first question implies that the item would be OP as scum. I didn't ask it thinking that scum actually had this item. I was pointing out how absurdly busted it would be. Hence my next sentence "This leads me to believe that the claim is false" I then saw two mindsets that could be town!Seppel. Seppel lied in the last game I played with him Stargate Mafia. He claimed to be a neutral (survivalist?) when he was in fact town. Others have also noted that he's not afraid to lie as town. I can see why it would confuse you though, it depends how much you've played with Seppel. I've recently played with a lot of lying town IABM lies pretty aggressively in Mafia Classic as town too. Hence why I'm not super aggressive against him here with his weird WIFOM.
Hey Mindreaver I never read the rules about passing items. Thanks, eat a dock.
Funny that you thought my case was an amusing read signifying you actually read it and I brought this up as well, but you made no comment on it. Or anything in it for that matter. You also referenced the OP before, but missed this and missed the other multiple references to passing items. For someone so adamant on getting rid of that laptop you seem to be trying really hard to ignore this point.
You literally can't. I thought that would be enough to prove that I'm town.
If I were mafia, then without a living item stealer on the town team, it would be an autowin for mafia.
You have played enough mafia to know that this is a bs argument. Why so afraid of a lynch if you think it proves that you are town then? Seems like you would WANT us to lynch you if it proves that you are town. Which it still wouldn't. It could very easily be a one-shot effect. But that's a different matter that we can worry about IF it becomes relevant.
That's a really good argument. I'm going to go re-read/re-evaluate Seppel, and make up my mind there. One thing I really like though, is that if he's not lying, the lynch shouldn't kill him.
I secretly (openly) fullclaimed in my first post. You want proof? Search the mafia forum for the name.
So there you have it. You believe this is the long con? I'm invincible, and you want to waste the only constant resource we have available to win?
I'm done with this.
V/LA until June 20th. I don't have a night action, so my absence is no problem. It is my sincerest hope that you all get your heads out of your assets and Lynch either Jobie or Matowar.
Also Vote Jobie/Atog since it failed last time.
1. I searched for Kella, which he claimed in his first post. It was Seppel's role in Symbiote mafia. He was seemingly neutral there and I can't find his actual role as it says it's in the files section of the spectator forum which doesn't seem to exist. He claimed unlynchable/unkillable teleporter but then he self-voted and was lynched D2, but disappeared never to return as opposed to flipping. Something to do with his symbiotic pairing being disconnected effecting his ability. Game was a specialty so had a lot of crazy stuff going on. So not sure why he is so opposed to being the lynch here as town with that ability when in that game he even self-voted to prove it as a neutral.
2. The more I think about it, the more I don't like this push for Jobie. Yeah, he has a decent chance of being scum, but there has literally been no arguments for anything he has done that is scummy other than lurking. Again, he votes Jobie here instead of Mato despite being deadset on Mato being the vig and being for sure scum.
@Silver - Just to be clear, it's not a true cc. My role is a bit different, but does offer similar protection.
[/quote]
Any other questions? I didn't mean to make you feel over looked or giving credit to another person for your case. I didn't know that part would really matter.
@Hunger-hyothetically if Seppel flips town, Ghosting eats a night kill (and consider me as confirmed town in this experiment) what is the game-state? What would your T/S look like to start day two and who would you shoot if you had three bullets?
Calling me scum every game doesn't mean you can actually read me. Sure, you were correct in the Classic, but you could technically call everyone in this game scum, and say you caught 100% of the scum team. And the fact of the matter is you chose a method to this game that all it does is make you a question mark (by purposefully lurking). Maybe you will participate more in the game, in which case, more power to you. But in any event, I would be fine with you getting shot in the face. With a rocket launcher.
I wanted to vote GJ but then I realized that maybe not making waves and staying even keeled is just his playstyle. But then when pressured on making a scum-case on me he ultimately said it didn't matter so whatever.
I'll hammer myself if everyone has said what they need to said.
Let's test that idea.
Unvote:DoTArchon
VOTE: Gentleman Johnny
Anyway I'm fairly certain your claim is either fake or you're a lover with scum.
I had the pulse since day 2, you wanted me lynched, and only got distracted by other people, but Animal you were dead certain I was lying about HAns blocking me (I wasn't), and you think that again today. I already explained why being neutral with a scum love is bastardly towards me, and if I was town and thought NAG was scum, I would be all for going 1 for with scum.
1. Your initial post to me sounded very defensive. I used that term before and I think that's a lot more accurate than mad. You went off questioning me about why I asked you and why I didn't think other wagons were viable even though I DID address exactly that in the post. If you read it it was very clear my stance on the other potential wagons being discussed at the time, but that I thought Seppel was a better option or at least one I wanted to pursue first. It felt to me like you were getting defensive that I dare question you and tried to put the pressure back on me with your reply and it felt a little bit like steering away from my Seppel push. It's just the feeling I got from your reaction.
2. Your reasoning for not paying close attention to my case is reasonable.
3. My problem with you assuming Kraj was telling the truth about having an item is two-fold. First, it sounded like you weren't even considering the possibility that he was lying. Which is important to the second point of how do you resolve Ghosting saying there was nothing to loot from Kraj? Is he lying? Was Kraj lying? I mean, I agree with the theory that we should test his claim if he is still alive, but the way you worded it pinged me as you knowing Kraj has an item and knowing it would confirm Ghosting's ability. Like, you even throw in a potshot at Proph and Blos for wanting Ghosting dead.
Basically my laptop can't fall into mafia hands because it makes its holder unlynchable and unkillable. I'm Boris Grishenko and true to my character's catchphrase "I'M INVINCIBLE!" I am in fact invincible.
While I hold it, I have unlimited uses of it, but it becomes a one-shot item if someone else comes into possession of it.
TS, here is the claim for refernce
So if the mafia has this item we basically can't win? I mean there might be someone who can steal items but if that person is dead do we auto lose? That leads me to believe this claim is false and he is town OR it is true and Seppel is town.
No, it is an unreasonable claim as scum. He wouldn't have that item in it's claimed form of unlimited uses as scum. Unlynchable? Possibly. Bulletproof? Possibly. Both in an unlimited capacity with no drawback? No chance. Again, why are you assuming that he has to be telling the truth about his item? Especially considering you are confident he lies as town. Why if he is lying does it have to be town lying? This makes no sense to me that you draw the conclusion he is probably lying, but think that makes him town.
You didn't understand what I wrote. The first question implies that the item would be OP as scum. I didn't ask it thinking that scum actually had this item. I was pointing out how absurdly busted it would be. Hence my next sentence "This leads me to believe that the claim is false" I then saw two mindsets that could be town!Seppel. Seppel lied in the last game I played with him Stargate Mafia. He claimed to be a neutral (survivalist?) when he was in fact town. Others have also noted that he's not afraid to lie as town. I can see why it would confuse you though, it depends how much you've played with Seppel. I've recently played with a lot of lying town IABM lies pretty aggressively in Mafia Classic as town too. Hence why I'm not super aggressive against him here with his weird WIFOM.
No, I think I understood just fine. You asked, "What do others think," and, "Can scum begin the game with that item?" and I replied to that telling you no. Which seems like you agree with given your first line. My main problem here you didn't address, and that's your logic that goes from, "the item would be OP as scum," to, "I then saw two mindsets that could be town!Seppel." I legitimately don't understand how you just skip over the possibility of him being scum and lying about the item. It's really bizarre. You set up a dichotomy where Seppel is town either way and don't even consider him as possible scum. And again, it seems like the reason for that is that the place you are starting your thought process from is, "Seppel has this invincibility item..." which again pinged me as you knowing too much. If you are scum, what you posted there is exactly what you would be thinking, "hmm is Seppel actually invincible or is he lying about his role?"
It's fishy as hell.
I'm also pretty sure I've played more games with Seppel than you have played games at all if your sig info is accurate. I know very well how often he lies, so no, I am not confused.
5. If Seppel flips town, it will change a lot of my views about the gamestate. I will reassess if that becomes a thing. I would still probably have reasonable doubts on the players I listed before. Starting with Mato most likely. I'd also be interested in Atog's catchup. There will also be a good chance for Night actions and flips to assess. While I think there are things that point to Seppel and Mato being scum together, I don't think any of would preclude them from being unaligned. I'd probably also want to reassess my town read on you because I think some of your play down the stretch of this Day has been questionable. I'd want to look at how the Seppel wagon pans out, etc. There are too many factors to say what my T/S list would be in that world.
1. Your initial post to me sounded very defensive. I used that term before and I think that's a lot more accurate than mad. You went off questioning me about why I asked you and why I didn't think other wagons were viable even though I DID address exactly that in the post. If you read it it was very clear my stance on the other potential wagons being discussed at the time, but that I thought Seppel was a better option or at least one I wanted to pursue first. It felt to me like you were getting defensive that I dare question you and tried to put the pressure back on me with your reply and it felt a little bit like steering away from my Seppel push. It's just the feeling I got from your reaction.
2. Your reasoning for not paying close attention to my case is reasonable.
3. My problem with you assuming Kraj was telling the truth about having an item is two-fold. First, it sounded like you weren't even considering the possibility that he was lying. Which is important to the second point of how do you resolve Ghosting saying there was nothing to loot from Kraj? Is he lying? Was Kraj lying? I mean, I agree with the theory that we should test his claim if he is still alive, but the way you worded it pinged me as you knowing Kraj has an item and knowing it would confirm Ghosting's ability. Like, you even throw in a potshot at Proph and Blos for wanting Ghosting dead.
Basically my laptop can't fall into mafia hands because it makes its holder unlynchable and unkillable. I'm Boris Grishenko and true to my character's catchphrase "I'M INVINCIBLE!" I am in fact invincible.
While I hold it, I have unlimited uses of it, but it becomes a one-shot item if someone else comes into possession of it.
TS, here is the claim for refernce
So if the mafia has this item we basically can't win? I mean there might be someone who can steal items but if that person is dead do we auto lose? That leads me to believe this claim is false and he is town OR it is true and Seppel is town.
No, it is an unreasonable claim as scum. He wouldn't have that item in it's claimed form of unlimited uses as scum. Unlynchable? Possibly. Bulletproof? Possibly. Both in an unlimited capacity with no drawback? No chance. Again, why are you assuming that he has to be telling the truth about his item? Especially considering you are confident he lies as town. Why if he is lying does it have to be town lying? This makes no sense to me that you draw the conclusion he is probably lying, but think that makes him town.
You didn't understand what I wrote. The first question implies that the item would be OP as scum. I didn't ask it thinking that scum actually had this item. I was pointing out how absurdly busted it would be. Hence my next sentence "This leads me to believe that the claim is false" I then saw two mindsets that could be town!Seppel. Seppel lied in the last game I played with him Stargate Mafia. He claimed to be a neutral (survivalist?) when he was in fact town. Others have also noted that he's not afraid to lie as town. I can see why it would confuse you though, it depends how much you've played with Seppel. I've recently played with a lot of lying town IABM lies pretty aggressively in Mafia Classic as town too. Hence why I'm not super aggressive against him here with his weird WIFOM.
No, I think I understood just fine. You asked, "What do others think," and, "Can scum begin the game with that item?" and I replied to that telling you no. Which seems like you agree with given your first line. My main problem here you didn't address, and that's your logic that goes from, "the item would be OP as scum," to, "I then saw two mindsets that could be town!Seppel." I legitimately don't understand how you just skip over the possibility of him being scum and lying about the item. It's really bizarre. You set up a dichotomy where Seppel is town either way and don't even consider him as possible scum. And again, it seems like the reason for that is that the place you are starting your thought process from is, "Seppel has this invincibility item..." which again pinged me as you knowing too much. If you are scum, what you posted there is exactly what you would be thinking, "hmm is Seppel actually invincible or is he lying about his role?"
It's fishy as hell.
I'm also pretty sure I've played more games with Seppel than you have played games at all if your sig info is accurate. I know very well how often he lies, so no, I am not confused.
5. If Seppel flips town, it will change a lot of my views about the gamestate. I will reassess if that becomes a thing. I would still probably have reasonable doubts on the players I listed before. Starting with Mato most likely. I'd also be interested in Atog's catchup. There will also be a good chance for Night actions and flips to assess. While I think there are things that point to Seppel and Mato being scum together, I don't think any of would preclude them from being unaligned. I'd probably also want to reassess my town read on you because I think some of your play down the stretch of this Day has been questionable. I'd want to look at how the Seppel wagon pans out, etc. There are too many factors to say what my T/S list would be in that world.
If Ghosting is the doctor what do you think about Blos and Proph relentlessly trying to tunnel/kill him from the beginning of the game? I thought it was pretty strange that they were so sure and ravenously wanted him dead. I also think Ghosting behavior in response to me is just weird if he really is town.
So in the world where Ghosting is town doctor. He tells everyone that I am obvious town several times. Then he lies and makes a fake claim. I catch the lie and tell him why it seems so unbelievable and inconsistent. Now at this point a town!Ghosting should be thinking something like "Wow, TS defended me until I told a lie and he spotted it, that's good observations on his part!" Instead he starts trying to say I'm scummy for jumping onto him...but he knows I jumped on him because he's lying!
He now lists me as lean scum after he reveals to everyone that yes TS was right that he originally wrote the first post about getting for sure NK was about the doctor bit and that when he changed the claim to the neutral thing it was a lie.
How exactly am I scum in that world? That's from Town!Ghosting mindset. I'm really lost on that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
For future reference, full claims should have a different format but the same content as your role pm. Don't quote the pm at all.
The following is sufficient:
I'm Silvercrys3467, Town X.
My first ability is X and it does this.
My second ability is X and it does that.
I also have an ammo clip.
:/
I always assumed it was fine as long as it was paraphrased.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Paraphrasing (usually) isn't just changing some words, but I'm new here so maybe I'm wrong. I wouldn't post anything like my role pm to be safe, I think tomsloger got modkilled recently for it.
It's up to Iso either way, ultimately. He's the mod. Hope you don't get mod-killed.
Anyway... I don't think I want you lynched now, though I'm really frustrated.
I do not want Atog lynched under any circumstances for [reasons]. I'm leaning towards Brinatoo and Seppel as scum at present.
Unvote ; Vote: Brinatoo
We have to be beyond that stage of the game. You can certainly wait until after his catch-up post, but I think all the reasons need to be in the open.
@Ghosting - This claim is a lot better. I bet the next will be outstanding.
@The other wagon - What are you guys looking for from Brinatoo? I don't see a lot of specific questions for him to respond to.
Hunger counter claimed him on invincible.
IF Ghosting is Doctor, there are probably 4 town power roles assuming only one of Hunger/Seppel is actually invincible.
Seppel claimed to be permanently invincible, but wanted someone to protect him and/or take his item.
Conclusion:
Seppel false claimed and wants someone to target him.
1) scum!Seppel is a Paranoid Gun Owner.
1a) DO NOT TARGET SEPPEL IF HE IS NOT THE LYNCH
2) scum!Seppel steals the items of people who target him, or does some other nasty thing to them.
2a) DO NOT TARGET SEPPEL IF HE IS NOT THE LYNCH
OR
3) town!Seppel is a different power role trying to avoid the night kill
3a) Two town power roles are gambiting.
4) town!Seppel does good things to townies who target him, like sees their alignment or something?
4a) Yeah, doubtful.
OR
5) Hunger is scum counter claiming on a widely town read player to attempt a counter wagon to save his lying scum buddy Ghosting.
5a) Ahahahaha. Yeah, I don't think so. At the time, Jobie/Atog, Matowar, or IMAB would have been vastly better counter wagons.
OR
6) There are two bulletproof townies and probably 5 power roles with only 3-4 scum.
6a) Scum have insane power roles, there is an extra scum, or at least one scum is a strongman. Wait, Kraj claimed strongman, didn't he? Maybe he was Godfather and strongman? I still doubt this world exists.
Vote: Seppel
And just to reiterate:
DO NOT TARGET SEPPEL WITH NIGHT ACTIONS
Please. You will probably die or something else terrible will happen to you. He bread crumbed this SO HARD when he claimed I don't know how I didn't catch it sooner. Or we can lynch him now and not have to worry about it
Unless someone has a more convincing analysis of the Hunger vs Seppel thing.
fake edit
@Mindreaver:
I can't give reasons without claiming.
I'll make you a deal, help me lynch Seppel and I'll claim in my first post of D2. It'll be worth it, I promise, and we'll be ahead enough that we won't need [redacted].
@Ghosting - Just so we're clear, when I'm alive tomorrow I'll believe you, and all is forgiven I think you've either bought yourself another day of living, or you've signed your death warrant (Since the scum can't go through your protection without the Kraj's key, you're quite a target now). I think it goes without saying, use your protection, leave the key where it is (or do both if you want, I don't see much downside to that).
You actually made a pretty big deal out of it too? If you were a Town Doctor wouldn't you be thinking "TS read me like a book, good on him, he's town." Like that's the only thing I'm really scratching my head at.
UNVOTE
I'm not sure I believe Ghosting.
The more I look at the claim, and read back through, the less I like it.
Get on this Seppel wagon, the worst that can happen is No Lynch or he gets hung for false claiming while we're ahead. I've not been sure of much, but I'm sure Seppel is scum.
I'm not completely opposed to a Seppel wagon, I guess.
Just I can see worlds where Ghosting is scum, and the scum team had Kraj's protection piercing item, and town has some protection with Hunger/Seppel/other items.
Muh.
Unvote
Let me dwell on this.
I'd rather not take responsibility for town play if it comes to LyLo lol.
I recall finding both wagons to be really sketchy, especially the push on you.
It might be because it was in opposition to Ghosting, who I really wanted dead, but..
I guess I'm willing to let Ghosting semi-resolve for now, but like.
Meh.
Maybe Seppel? Brinatoo feels tied with Ghosting's alignment somehow, but I'm not 100% sure how. I need to sort that out.
Does scum do that to their buddy to bus them? Kind of an awkward line to take.
But then again does scum doubt a neutral claim to that degree and try to push a lynch on them the way he did there? Hum. Not sure. Maybe?
Want more people talking about that and the mindset involved.
Votes on me:
1) Seppel - OMGUS?
2) not_a_gimmick - pressure on HWP's replacement?
3) Brinatoo - I moved Hunt and Blos from null to lean town two hours after posting a t/s list.
I think TappingStones FoS me after I replaced in, too.
Votes on Hardwood_Paneling:
1) Gentleman Johnny - ended RVS with no explanation.
2) Matowar77 - says HWP isn't American, or something.
3) not_a_gimmick - trying too hard
4) Mindreaver - the riddle
5) TappingStones - talks about NaG, votes HWP (I think they had similar avatars at the time?)
6) imabusinessman - Lynch-a-lurker
Kraj sent him a FoS if that counts?
His longest wagon was only two if you go by vote counts (Matowar77, TappingStones).
Mine was four, I believe (IMAB inherited from HWP, Seppel, Brinatoo, NaG). This is probably the only "real" wagon.
Okay.
Seppel or Brinatoo are absolutely plausible scum there.
Brinatoo had a really opportunistic-feeling vote on you, I called him out on it soon after, and he played it off as being fishing for reactions or something.
That's where my town read on him started to dwindle a bit.
meh, I was gonna ignore it but it is a worthy question...
In Final Fantasy I was suspicious of you because of your "Hunt is playing badly, I think he's town, but he deserves to die anyway". This was after I literally proved that Hunt's abilities made him confirmed town. Nobody even refuted my reasons for Hunt being confirmed town, they just kept attacking him anyway. But you particularly drew my ire from the group because you were townreading him and declaring you didn't care if he died. (Hint: it's why I'm scumreading GJ, but I'm scumreading him way harder than I ever did you in Final Fantasy).
In this game I didn't like it when you were declaring that I should be shot. I firmly believe that townies would just say "shoot a lurker, anyone will do" and that it really shouldn't matter which one. Instead you and several other players were trying to direct the vig to particular players. It turned out right in the end but it's one of those "the right play for the wrong reasons" kind of thing. And while other players were also trying to direct shots, I just don't have a townread on you like I do for Seppel and Tappingstones.
Since you seem to have a strong town read on Seppel, how do you feel about Hunger's #1197 and my #1263? I'd rather eat crow than lynch town if possible, but I really don't like his claim compared with Hunger's counter claim.
I fully plan on protecting you, but why would scum ever target you over me? I don't see the sense in it when I'm blatantly saying I'm going to be protecting you tonight. They'd be wasting their NK, and we'd both live. I only see them ever targeting me, unless I'm missing something?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Bleh. Any thoughts on Seppel? I'd like to lynch him. Worst case, like Mindreaver said, is no lynch but we're already ahead since he got Kraj. If Seppel flips town he shouldn't have gambited. I'm pretty sure he's scum though.
I suppose I could settle for Brinatoo if that's what everyone else wants, though. I'm sort of null-leaning scum on him.
I've read you vs Brinatoo a few times over the last day or so. I thought it was bussing at first, but maybe I read him right and you wrong. I need to iso him again but I probably won't be able to until tomorrow.
I'm not sure why you expected me to validate this with an answer; have you read the rules?
Granted. Deadline has been extended by 3 days, and will expire on Monday at 0000 hours EST.
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Regarding Ghosting's role PM: Nothing was quoted, but let's please try to be careful about how we format our claims in general, shall we?
If in doubt, please run your claim by me, first.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm still v/la until tomorrow night so haven't been paying close attention to anything, just posting whenever I have a second to make a quick post. I'm headed to bed now and my brain is drained from hours of chemistry homework, so I'll get to your questions tomorrow.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I think testing that is fine. Although Seppel lies a lot as town.
If we try to lynch him and there is a no lynch then is that proving he's town though? I'm too busy to look through him at the moment but I'll go back and look at what exactly the claim was tonight.
If you've claimed false, I'ma die That's all I mean.
TS, here is the claim for refernce
So if the mafia has this item we basically can't win? I mean there might be someone who can steal items but if that person is dead do we auto lose? That leads me to believe this claim is false and he is town OR it is true and Seppel is town.
What do others think?
Can scum begin the game with that item?
If Seppel is town, was just invincible, and was afraid somebody would steal it (which isn't game over for us, mind you, it would just become a one-shot self-doctor), the worst play in the world is saying "I have this item, here is what it does".
If he's got a different ability, say PGO, that claim looks shady. Particularly this piece:
You don't need a watcher, or a item-stealer. You could pass this to a townread, silently, so they didn't even know it existed.
Also this claim came when Seppel was under ZERO pressure.
How I would have played this as town:
1) Select my top townread
2) Pass him the laptop some night
3) Post in the thread "I passed a laptop to somebody, I'm not going to say what it does, but now that person knows I'm town".
At the very worst, he passes it to scum. But how is that different than "Come steal this, I know there is probably an item stealer, one twon and one scum? That's just random.
This is one of the best cases against behavior we've had this game. I've gotta believe Seppel doesn't have an item that does this. In Stargate Iso was an absorber of some sort that couldn't be vig shot, but he was a neutral SK.
I am going to have disagree strongly here. Health of community means pushing bad behavior until it approves. What this attitude instead does is encourage bad behavior to continue, until you have people who have been playing for years doing stupid *****, like lying as town (obviously ignoring the <5% time where it could be necessary).
[quot=Ghosting]By pushing a mislynch, I meant be pushing a wagon that ends up being town.
Anyway, I may as well save everyone some time since the deadline is fairly soon. I'm the Town Doctor. Hence me thinking I'd automatically eat the NK, and instead decided a neutral claim that I could "prove" would prevent that from happening. I figured I could just sit back and pass items, heal people, without scum having any idea I'm a doctor; the role is also just controversial enough I could stay alive for a fairly long while so that I'm of use, at least for a couple days.[/quote]
Some part of me is happy I am 2 for 2 on roles that are too bastardly to exist. The other part is laughing at the irony of what I posted before it, and the last half is pissed off. In this particular instance, unless someone is a doctor or bodyguard, Ghosting is likely telling the truth, but ffs man. Just eat the NK next time. We might even get a watcher/WIFOM from the scum of not killing you.
I wasn't any less impressed when DCD tried that in the Clan game. Iso doesn't give flavor to players the can screw over alignments.
I could see him going as scum, me and Blos were pretty much left alone as neutral, a cop is obvious from Kraj's flip, so what role could I claim that would pass a cop test?
I could also see him just telling the truth about being scurred of night killed, even if he did it in a really stupid way. I would let a cc go through here.
Vote Seppel. I like the arguments being made for him, and I think thing for the town right now is to stop flipping rocks, and the let the cop/coppish role do what he does best.
Calling me scum every game doesn't mean you can actually read me. Sure, you were correct in the Classic, but you could technically call everyone in this game scum, and say you caught 100% of the scum team. And the fact of the matter is you chose a method to this game that all it does is make you a question mark (by purposefully lurking). Maybe you will participate more in the game, in which case, more power to you. But in any event, I would be fine with you getting shot in the face. With a rocket launcher.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Words cannot describe the anger that is seething from me at reading this sentence.
Are you going to stop this bull***** and start playing to win? Your failure to optimally play to your win condition is reprehensible. It directly affects me. And I want to play optimally. So stop this garbage and start lynching scum.
I am so done with this game if this attitude continues.
You literally can't. I thought that would be enough to prove that I'm town.
If I were mafia, then without a living item stealer on the town team, it would be an autowin for mafia.
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU
I secretly (openly) fullclaimed in my first post. You want proof? Search the mafia forum for the name.
So there you have it. You believe this is the long con? I'm invincible, and you want to waste the only constant resource we have available to win?
I'm done with this.
V/LA until June 20th. I don't have a night action, so my absence is no problem. It is my sincerest hope that you all get your heads out of your assets and Lynch either Jobie or Matowar.
Also Vote Jobie/Atog since it failed last time.
If Seppel doesn't have a good way to respond to this then I will vote him.
He wouldn't be that mad about us verifying his claim unless he false claimed.
Come on TS. You wanted me to help you catch scum? Lynch this. The worst that can happen is we lynch a lying townie.
I like the case that has been made by several folks and one of the things I really look out for in Mafia is to let me team mates be right when they find scum. Seppel was on lean town for me for likely inaccurate/shoddy meta reads on my part. I've never seen him this active before and a lot of his reads mirrored mine.
I do want to give him a chance to answer to Mindreaver's very direct and strong challenge.
You can eat two docks dude.
Unvote, Vote Seppel
...No, it isn't. I also brought up this point in my EBWOP. So why did you say you read my case when you didn't?
Also, I have a question for you Why are you so certain Kraj was telling the truth about his item? He flipped scum and there is no evidence in his death post of an item. Even if he did have an item, why do you think he would tell the truth about what it does?
No, it is an unreasonable claim as scum. He wouldn't have that item in it's claimed form of unlimited uses as scum. Unlynchable? Possibly. Bulletproof? Possibly. Both in an unlimited capacity with no drawback? No chance. Again, why are you assuming that he has to be telling the truth about his item? Especially considering you are confident he lies as town. Why if he is lying does it have to be town lying? This makes no sense to me that you draw the conclusion he is probably lying, but think that makes him town.
Funny that you thought my case was an amusing read signifying you actually read it and I brought this up as well, but you made no comment on it. Or anything in it for that matter. You also referenced the OP before, but missed this and missed the other multiple references to passing items. For someone so adamant on getting rid of that laptop you seem to be trying really hard to ignore this point. You have played enough mafia to know that this is a bs argument. Why so afraid of a lynch if you think it proves that you are town then? Seems like you would WANT us to lynch you if it proves that you are town. Which it still wouldn't. It could very easily be a one-shot effect. But that's a different matter that we can worry about IF it becomes relevant.
1. I searched for Kella, which he claimed in his first post. It was Seppel's role in Symbiote mafia. He was seemingly neutral there and I can't find his actual role as it says it's in the files section of the spectator forum which doesn't seem to exist. He claimed unlynchable/unkillable teleporter but then he self-voted and was lynched D2, but disappeared never to return as opposed to flipping. Something to do with his symbiotic pairing being disconnected effecting his ability. Game was a specialty so had a lot of crazy stuff going on. So not sure why he is so opposed to being the lynch here as town with that ability when in that game he even self-voted to prove it as a neutral.
2. The more I think about it, the more I don't like this push for Jobie. Yeah, he has a decent chance of being scum, but there has literally been no arguments for anything he has done that is scummy other than lurking. Again, he votes Jobie here instead of Mato despite being deadset on Mato being the vig and being for sure scum.
@Silver - Just to be clear, it's not a true cc. My role is a bit different, but does offer similar protection.
Yeah, not a true counter claim, but like I pointed out earlier there's already two protective roles if you believe Ghosting and (probably) four town power roles. In a normal. The claim is awful and I want him dead for it.
Are you sure I was scumreading you...
Anyway I'm fairly certain your claim is either fake or you're a lover with scum.
I questioned why you were specifically asking me about it. I know text is often hard to judge emotions off of but I wasn't mad at all. Why would you use a word like mad to describe me asking you that?
I did read it, as I've already said but I wasn't paying much attention to the details because you were going after Seppel when i was trying to resolve my ideas about the lynch for the day, which at that time Seppel was no where on my radar. I didn't see it as something pertinent and as such kept on reading through. I would assume a lot of people have read some of my Bloscovi case the same way. Does everyone have the essence of my Bloscovi argument after the first time I talked about it? Probably not, and I wouldn't blame them as he's not near a lynch and there's so much action around Kraj, Ghosting, Jobie, and Matowar's slots.
I'm not certain of anyone having any items outside of Mindreaver's gun. But the only way we could verify this item (that I am aware of) would be through Ghosting's ability. What is wrong with me wanting us to attempt to get an item? That's what Ghosting said his role does. Get an item and according to him give it to who we want to give it to.
You didn't understand what I wrote. The first question implies that the item would be OP as scum. I didn't ask it thinking that scum actually had this item. I was pointing out how absurdly busted it would be. Hence my next sentence "This leads me to believe that the claim is false" I then saw two mindsets that could be town!Seppel. Seppel lied in the last game I played with him Stargate Mafia. He claimed to be a neutral (survivalist?) when he was in fact town. Others have also noted that he's not afraid to lie as town. I can see why it would confuse you though, it depends how much you've played with Seppel. I've recently played with a lot of lying town IABM lies pretty aggressively in Mafia Classic as town too. Hence why I'm not super aggressive against him here with his weird WIFOM.
Funny that you thought my case was an amusing read signifying you actually read it and I brought this up as well, but you made no comment on it. Or anything in it for that matter. You also referenced the OP before, but missed this and missed the other multiple references to passing items. For someone so adamant on getting rid of that laptop you seem to be trying really hard to ignore this point. You have played enough mafia to know that this is a bs argument. Why so afraid of a lynch if you think it proves that you are town then? Seems like you would WANT us to lynch you if it proves that you are town. Which it still wouldn't. It could very easily be a one-shot effect. But that's a different matter that we can worry about IF it becomes relevant.
1. I searched for Kella, which he claimed in his first post. It was Seppel's role in Symbiote mafia. He was seemingly neutral there and I can't find his actual role as it says it's in the files section of the spectator forum which doesn't seem to exist. He claimed unlynchable/unkillable teleporter but then he self-voted and was lynched D2, but disappeared never to return as opposed to flipping. Something to do with his symbiotic pairing being disconnected effecting his ability. Game was a specialty so had a lot of crazy stuff going on. So not sure why he is so opposed to being the lynch here as town with that ability when in that game he even self-voted to prove it as a neutral.
2. The more I think about it, the more I don't like this push for Jobie. Yeah, he has a decent chance of being scum, but there has literally been no arguments for anything he has done that is scummy other than lurking. Again, he votes Jobie here instead of Mato despite being deadset on Mato being the vig and being for sure scum.
@Silver - Just to be clear, it's not a true cc. My role is a bit different, but does offer similar protection.
[/quote]
Any other questions? I didn't mean to make you feel over looked or giving credit to another person for your case. I didn't know that part would really matter.
@Hunger-hyothetically if Seppel flips town, Ghosting eats a night kill (and consider me as confirmed town in this experiment) what is the game-state? What would your T/S look like to start day two and who would you shoot if you had three bullets?
I had the pulse since day 2, you wanted me lynched, and only got distracted by other people, but Animal you were dead certain I was lying about HAns blocking me (I wasn't), and you think that again today. I already explained why being neutral with a scum love is bastardly towards me, and if I was town and thought NAG was scum, I would be all for going 1 for with scum.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
1. Your initial post to me sounded very defensive. I used that term before and I think that's a lot more accurate than mad. You went off questioning me about why I asked you and why I didn't think other wagons were viable even though I DID address exactly that in the post. If you read it it was very clear my stance on the other potential wagons being discussed at the time, but that I thought Seppel was a better option or at least one I wanted to pursue first. It felt to me like you were getting defensive that I dare question you and tried to put the pressure back on me with your reply and it felt a little bit like steering away from my Seppel push. It's just the feeling I got from your reaction.
2. Your reasoning for not paying close attention to my case is reasonable.
3. My problem with you assuming Kraj was telling the truth about having an item is two-fold. First, it sounded like you weren't even considering the possibility that he was lying. Which is important to the second point of how do you resolve Ghosting saying there was nothing to loot from Kraj? Is he lying? Was Kraj lying? I mean, I agree with the theory that we should test his claim if he is still alive, but the way you worded it pinged me as you knowing Kraj has an item and knowing it would confirm Ghosting's ability. Like, you even throw in a potshot at Proph and Blos for wanting Ghosting dead.
4. No, I think I understood just fine. You asked, "What do others think," and, "Can scum begin the game with that item?" and I replied to that telling you no. Which seems like you agree with given your first line. My main problem here you didn't address, and that's your logic that goes from, "the item would be OP as scum," to, "I then saw two mindsets that could be town!Seppel." I legitimately don't understand how you just skip over the possibility of him being scum and lying about the item. It's really bizarre. You set up a dichotomy where Seppel is town either way and don't even consider him as possible scum. And again, it seems like the reason for that is that the place you are starting your thought process from is, "Seppel has this invincibility item..." which again pinged me as you knowing too much. If you are scum, what you posted there is exactly what you would be thinking, "hmm is Seppel actually invincible or is he lying about his role?"
It's fishy as hell.
I'm also pretty sure I've played more games with Seppel than you have played games at all if your sig info is accurate. I know very well how often he lies, so no, I am not confused.
5. If Seppel flips town, it will change a lot of my views about the gamestate. I will reassess if that becomes a thing. I would still probably have reasonable doubts on the players I listed before. Starting with Mato most likely. I'd also be interested in Atog's catchup. There will also be a good chance for Night actions and flips to assess. While I think there are things that point to Seppel and Mato being scum together, I don't think any of would preclude them from being unaligned. I'd probably also want to reassess my town read on you because I think some of your play down the stretch of this Day has been questionable. I'd want to look at how the Seppel wagon pans out, etc. There are too many factors to say what my T/S list would be in that world.
If Ghosting is the doctor what do you think about Blos and Proph relentlessly trying to tunnel/kill him from the beginning of the game? I thought it was pretty strange that they were so sure and ravenously wanted him dead. I also think Ghosting behavior in response to me is just weird if he really is town.
So in the world where Ghosting is town doctor. He tells everyone that I am obvious town several times. Then he lies and makes a fake claim. I catch the lie and tell him why it seems so unbelievable and inconsistent. Now at this point a town!Ghosting should be thinking something like "Wow, TS defended me until I told a lie and he spotted it, that's good observations on his part!" Instead he starts trying to say I'm scummy for jumping onto him...but he knows I jumped on him because he's lying!
He now lists me as lean scum after he reveals to everyone that yes TS was right that he originally wrote the first post about getting for sure NK was about the doctor bit and that when he changed the claim to the neutral thing it was a lie.
How exactly am I scum in that world? That's from Town!Ghosting mindset. I'm really lost on that.