I almost didn't do this because of how frustrating Brinatoo responses were, but I really want everyone to see it.
Quote from Brinatoo »
That post wasn't accompanied with support for the following players: Proph, Mato, and Hardwood. And the Mindreaver/TS wasn't a read but a statement or an implied read, if anything.
"That post"? Saying "that" post doesn't even make sense because what you're replying to is this:
Quote from Ghosting »
Except that my reads following my prod weren't baseless; in fact, they've been accompanied by in depth analysis, post references, etc.
And my response was a reply to:
Right after RVS can be just as telling as later in the day. Coming up with baseless reads after being prodded to do so is, how I view, a weak attempt to appease the town.
Which was in response to:
So my point is this: why are you using reads from my first 3 or 4 posts, which are just barely out of RVS?
Just quoting these so everyone has an idea of what is being said, since I'm sure it's too much for other people to follow, since I'm having a hard time following the responses myself lol.
You're referring to my behaviour after being prodded, and saying that my reads were baseless after my prod (which isn't even true, but that's not focus right now). I argue that they aren't baseless, and you respond with "that post wasn't accompanied with support...". What "that" post is being referred to? The argument started with me saying that using solely my RVS reads isn't a fair means of argument because I was barely active, it was super early, and I have significantly developed reads from my return onwards. So I don't see now how or why it has diverged to this.
---
Quote from Brinatoo »
Four examples about a specific thing don't infer anything... And it is completely true what you posted. Posts are facts.
Four specific examples about something absolutely do infer something. When you type something out, you have a motivation for doing so. Posting something four times, something specific, shows a motivation. You wanted that known. If it meant nothing, you would not have mentioned it, with suspicion, four times. "And it is completely true what you posted" isn't a reply that makes sense with what I said. "Posts are facts"? What does this even mean?
Quote from Brinatoo »
Funny you bring up a 90%, because I was thinking that your early gameplay was 90% defense/mafiatheory stuff. Why did I mention it? Because it happened a few times and whoever said he was reading peaked my interest with respect to those few times.
How was my early gameplay 90% defense if you're only basing your view on me off of pre-prod? The 90% I'm referring to is referring to the 90% of my play you are choosing to ignore.
Quote from Brinatoo »
Then don't phrase it as something that could be taken as philosophical. Say what you just said.
Is this for real??? How in any possible realm was it phrased as "philosophical"??? Like I'm seriously thinking you are doing this on purpose. Your replies are not even making sense. This is what I said:
Quote from Ghosting »
Seppel is null to you, but he's not reading the thread. Would you say that not reading the thread is inherently town, or scum?
What is not clear about that?
>Seppel is null to you
>But he's not reading the thread
>Would you say not reading the thread is something town or scum are more likely to do?
Quote from Brinatoo »
I have been but you keep writing it off so I'm done trying to explain my viewpoints. I'll keep evaluating your play but asking me to analyze it over and over while ignoring me doing it at the same time is pointless and spam.
You have been? Where? You have literally said you aren't using my current play because "RVS is just as useful sometimes".
Quote from Brinatoo »
Strange and specific pronouns. Not telling.
Again, are you serious? You live in Fort Worth, I am fairly confident English is your first language. I made a very, very easily understood comment that you are not responding to because you are claiming you don't know what I'm asking? It's literally directly in response to something you said, and very obvious. Let's say you for some reason don't understand how pronouns work: what did you talk about 4 times but say isn't telling? What were we just talking about? Trying to act like you don't know what I'm saying is getting old and obviously not the case.
Quote from Brinatoo »
Could have been sloppy play and sorry is your only way out.
Yes, me apologizing immediately for mixing up what two players who I was actively responding to with huge quote walls, back and forth, is totally sloppy play, and I said sorry as a way out. Do you really, genuinely think that makes any sense at all? This is such a reach. Do you know that I claimed?
I am absolutely voting Brinatoo after all that. Vote Brinatoo.
Yea I'm not responding to most of that because you are incapable of understanding my point of view. Or I am incapable of getting across my points to you. Or both. I will re-clarify my points if someone else needs me to explain because they have a hard time understanding them- but I have no desire to respond to this mess. For the bolded sections I'll elaborate on, the philosophical post I was referring to is "You are well aware that there could be a wagon on Seppel, but could also not be." That, without context, could absolutely be interpreted as philsophical bull. Here's an example "You are well aware that there could be a wagon on ""insert player that X player views as scummy but Y player has as null,"" but could also not be." Without you being completely clear about what you are talking about(a few others scumleaned on Seppel prior), I could take that in many different ways. This actually reminds me of what happened earlier with TS and Proph(97/102). "You are well aware" + "could" was probably what had me view it like that. Ugh I hate semantics.
Yes I know you claimed. I still think you are scum. I plan on looking more at your wagon hopping and how they relate to your reads, but don't expect me to respond to your rebuttal because I'm done with this spam. You can still throw more info for everyone to look at but I gain nothing mentally from this banter.
But now that I've accepted that he is town, those interactions take on a new tint. When I look at brinatoo, specifically, he is not playing the game of mafia in those posts. He is being brinatoo, the person, just trying to figure out a new person. He doesn't necessarily care about tappingstones' alignment, just making communication possible.
So what was once a towntell became a very mild scumtell.
I asked if gimmicks were still common and you said you weren't new. I haven't tried to figure out a new person once this game, unless you mean new to me but new to the game of mafia? no. And I did try to figure out his alignment early on/communicate but that ship has sailed, he's scum. I'm only met with sideline antics now.
I am talking about the early part of your conversation with tappingstones. I will dig up the posts for my long-awaited brinatoo case that you haven't asked about.
Can you explain your read on Brinatoo, please? I did a PBPA of him earlier and came out of it with the impression that he was strongly town. Why do you think Brinatoo is scum?
Yeah, I'll get to it. Probably this weekend.
I wish you'd let things be sometimes. I would much rather brinatoo just marinate in the anticipation.
Then get to your case, stop being lovestruck. And how do you like your meat? I like mine either medium well or well done
@TS and @Brinatoo, now that you've both been on the receiving end of a Ghosting debate, what are your thoughts here? Is he just trying to make others look worse or is this just how he plays? I suspect if I hadn't had as strong of a claim, I'd still be mired in those same conversations you are both having, and I'm not sure whether he's scum trying to throw suspicion or it's just his style.
Idk his meta nor would I use it as support for or against. Behaviorally, I would support the shot. For "scum trying to throw suspicion," I've been weighing between consciously doing it in the intended manner or just actively pushing his defense/conversation in one direction without looking back and accepting any other answer but his absolute opinion. I have a hard time believing anything but the latter.
If we had to take a shot at either Mato/IABM for lurking/being unhelpful in general, I wouldn't be opposed but I think we could gain more from Ghosting because of the wagon and the lynch afterwards. It would be two wagons or two birds one stone so to speak. Between Mato and IABM, Mato over IABM atm- subject to change if they both catch up on their activity whilst townie responses.
Kraj- "My playstyle is very time-consuming and apparently not working very well, I'm frustrated that I keep getting called scum without reasons, or for reasons I can't do anything about..."
Most of us don't know him so the first part about a time-consuming play-style garners a shrug. The "apparently not working part" I'm unclear on. What part isn't working well? Him not posting at all? He's frustrated about being called scum. Well all players get frustrated by that, nothing interesting. "...or for reasons I can't do anything about..." why can't he do anything about it? He could provide a defense for literally any attack under the sun.
This is the type of thing that's really frustrating for ME
Are we wasting a kill because someone doesn't want to put in the effort to play? That's tilting. But at the very least it puts reality on the table for other people lurking that they could be next. I really don't like spewing off kills if people aren't invested. So if you are town, get invested. We are going to win, IF you try.
I support a vig on Kraj. I've seen townKraj and this doesn't look like it. ScumKraj generally doesn't do much and flops over if he can't figure out a master plan.
I'd be very surprised if the universally-considered scum pile of Jobie/Hunger/Ghosting/Kraj etc were all scum. Because that never happens in a mafia game.
The way we've had no serious wagons or counterwagons (nobody's even been brought to L-2!!) makes me feel like we're absolutely steamrolling the scum. The "deep scum" as your put it (I like the term) is probably pissed at his team right now.
This fits in line with Kraj not being able to care if the rest of his team is being awful as well.
I'll be pulling the trigger today, approximately 8 hours from now. I was looking for confirmation that nobody on my list of potentials was a serious red-flag to the rest of my townloeads.
I'm not going to reveal who I've chosen yet, but I would very much like Kraj to post before I shoot. Either comment on Ghosting/Matowar/Literally anyone, or on your own position. Silence is not acceptable.
I work a double at work today so if you do decide to vig me, can it wait until tomorrow morning? Just so I can get some replies in, as I'm leaving for work right now.
I'm still okay with either Mato or Kraj, however I agree that if Mato is scum, he will likely be found later.
I'll be pulling the trigger today, approximately 8 hours from now. [...]
I'm [...] going to reveal [...] I've chosen [...] Kraj
Basically what I read.
To be fair Kraj did ask to be shot in a recent post. He asked for scum to do it but i guess it shouldn't matter who pulls the trigger if you have a deathwish.
Kraj - Mato and Ghosting are claiming/asking about whether to claim to save themselves. You're MIA completely. You're still near the top of my list. Please do something. Make a case for yourself, or one of the others.
I'm vanilla, I've admittedly been lurky, and people have been calling me scum left and right all game. It's hard to argue with being vigged under those circumstances, and I'd rather be vigged than lynched. That said, my posts may be few but have always included actual content; I've analyzed players and made cases, I've answered questions directed at me, I've attempted to generate discussion in places other people weren't talking about, I've been unafraid to post unpopular opinions, and I'm trying to be relevant despite the massive amount of content generated while I was away. In short, if people find me scummy I can't help that, nor can I magically force myself to be better at finding scum, but I thought my play made it clear I was trying.
It doesn't help that, like Seppel, my item is better gone from the game than in the hands of scum. I have the Goldeneye Key, which makes the holder's killing ability unblockable. Being a "key" I suspect there is a 'lock' counterparty item it combines with. I'm inclined to pass it to Proph, Silver, or Blosc tonight, as they are my strongest townreads but obviously at this point I would do whatever the consensus is.
Kraj- "My playstyle is very time-consuming and apparently not working very well, I'm frustrated that I keep getting called scum without reasons, or for reasons I can't do anything about..."
Most of us don't know him so the first part about a time-consuming play-style garners a shrug. The "apparently not working part" I'm unclear on. What part isn't working well?
Unless you, Mindreaver, and NAG are all good liars, then my accuracy has been poor. If I'm not being effective and getting called scum at the same time, I'd say that's not 'working very well'.
"...or for reasons I can't do anything about..." why can't he do anything about it? He could provide a defense for literally any attack under the sun.
I can't defend against attacks like "I don't like that post from Kraj". 90% of the negative comments about me have been vague or emotion-based. Almost everyone has called me scum at some point despite there never being an actual case made against me, or even more than one vote at a time. So... I dunno how to defend against that.
Regarding a not-me Vig: Matowar seems a fine choice to me. I still think the scum is likely lurking, as that's a tried and true method, and I don't have a solid behavior scumread on anyone. A very large portion of Matowar's posts have been 'helpful townie' or commenting about the game instead of real content. Jobie and IAMB have been similarly lurky; Jobie's posts seem to have more content but I don't get a good vibe from his posts. I don't think IMAB's 'good guy' breadcrumb means anything when we've established PM's contain a variety of language and some people aren't even sure of their own alignments, and I've seen little else from him except to say his breadcrumb makes him town.
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@Kraj-Early on you didn't like my play and had your suspicions of me. How have your feelings changed or have they?
Why do you trust Bloscovi? I've heard very little in solid logical language to promote him as town.
Quick do an interactions check on yourself. If you flip town are there any red flags that we can look to?
Can you some semblance of a scum team below the surface level?
If you are scum you could at least be a good sport and realize the jig is up. Give us a nice deep cackle and revel that the rest of us "Are fools if you think you'll catch Blos...I mean the rest of the scum team."
Good god did I step into it. I thought with the amount of lurkers I could blend in and the quality of my posts would be a saving grace here but apparently not. Caught for the wrong reasons, it feels bad man.
Pull yourself together. Come back at Mindreaver with a balanced post. Admit you've been lurking and tell them how you understand why they'd vig or lynch you. Then present Mato has being a valid option. But do it passively. You want to come across as a towny who screwed up and is willing to pay the price for his inactivity.
Yeeessss! Yeeessss! *(loud cackle commences) If I can survive to night I will pass you the Goldeneye Key and we can get to work on tunneling Imabusinessman. Though I do have my trepidations, you my friend are deep scum and set to coast through this, but Tappingstones has picked up the scent and I don't see him backing off, nor does he look remotely lynchable.
Leave Tappingstones to me. If we can't gain traction on a TS lynch then we'll throttle him in his sleep. We've got Proph at our beck and call. Though I wish he'd distance himself a bit, it is a bit too much. In the end, this town will be OURS HOO HAA HAA HA HA
I'm vanilla, I've admittedly been lurky, and people have been calling me scum left and right all game. It's hard to argue with being vigged under those circumstances, and I'd rather be vigged than lynched. That said, my posts may be few but have always included actual content; I've analyzed players and made cases, I've answered questions directed at me, I've attempted to generate discussion in places other people weren't talking about, I've been unafraid to post unpopular opinions, and I'm trying to be relevant despite the massive amount of content generated while I was away. In short, if people find me scummy I can't help that, nor can I magically force myself to be better at finding scum, but I thought my play made it clear I was trying.
He claimed an item that grants strongman too. And I'm like... The item is most useful for scum, but does scum claim strongman looking down the barrel of a gun?
I'm still looking at Ghosting (for a lynch, not a vig). His claim isn't confirmable, it's useful to town so it keeps him from getting lynched, the confirmable portion is useful for both alignments...
And there's probably at least one "deep scum" he could pass an item to publicly without arousing suspicion, confirming himself as "town" for giving "us" items instead of our scum reads. It would also be convenient for him if the people he passed items to didn't turn up dead for him since he claimed he protects them.
I'll (hopefully) have more after Mindreaver shoots... in about 4 hours, I think? But I'll be hanging around until then if anyone has questions or things I want to comment on.
In the meantime, I think my vote belongs back where it was. I wanted to reassess, but after thinking it over I still think he's the strongest scumspect. Vote: Ghosting
Well, my choice is Kraj, and he's toast whenever Iso reads the PM.
Here is the thing Kraj. I had a very similar moment to Proph's table flip post. You *sound* sincere. But I can't ignore behavior.
Your item is strange for a vanilla to have. Somehow you'd have to pass it somewhere for it to be most effective, and you haven't gone out of your way to find the right person to pass it to. WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY ME AT THIS POINT. I can't tell you how frustrating it was to read "Being a "key" I suspect there is a 'lock' counterparty item it combines with." when I've already claimed that I can't open my briefcase, and was looking for a code or a key to do so. For you to follow up with "Oh, but I'd give it to these three..." was particularly galling.
If you haven't put in enough effort to find the "lock" for your key, even when the claim is right in your face, I don't know what to say. Ghosting can pick it up off your corpse tonight, and we can unlock the case that way, if we even want to go down that road.
The Goldeneye key is the key needed to launch an attack with the satellite weapon "Goldeneye." There's no "lock" except for the fact that you put it into a computer to be able to use the Goldeneye.
The briefcase is an unopenable red herring, if I recall correctly.
This flavor moment brought to you by Seppel.
Also I highly recommend watching Goldeneye. It's a good bond flick. And there's a lot of bad Bond flicks (looking at you, The World Is Not Enough ("TWINE")).
Well, my choice is Kraj, and he's toast whenever Iso reads the PM.
As Sandra Diaz-Twine, two time winner of Survivor and my own private Goddess, once said: As Long As It Ain't me. Now that I've engaged in enough activity to avoid getting shot I'll go back to not doing anything. I'll keep my vote parked on Gentleman Johnny in case a wagon happens on him in my absence since he's obviously a lover with scum and thusly will never be shot. That's why he claimed.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My initial thought was that Tapping was scum with Kraj trying to clumsily tie me to him, but then I read through the early game interactions with TS/Kraj and I don't think that's ever scum/scum.
Hum.
What even is a Turncoat in this context I wonder - I know it's been an alignment-switching role in other games/communities, but I can't fathom that'd be allowed in a Normal here.
Ghosting... I'm inclined to believe him, so far. And I do think he'll do what the town wants, so long as the game isn't going to end before he can pass his three items.
On the scumhunting, and I'll start with the guy who was my second choice.
I didn't see any obvious bussing from Kraj's iso. Of course, this only gives points to people I'm already townreading (NaG, Mindreaver, TS,) and Matowar. Eh.
[b]@Bloscovi[/b] Here's my opinion of that Kraj post:
[b]Vote: Kraj{/b]
[b]@Kraj, Proph, Brinatoo, Hunger[/b] Pick a number 1-25, there is likely a wrong answer, but there may not be a right answer. If you do not respond within your next two posts you will be voted for.
I have updated my notes, I want to see where this Kraj deal goes. I'm also interested in Matowar.
There is waaaaaay to much unprompted role info ITT. Loose lips sink ships, folks.
The above is him responding (pretty fast) to my inquiry about Kraj, with a vote, but no push. Hum.
Jobie - ???. I've got literally nothing. He dropped his vote on Kraj and vanished. He's pushing nothing, and making minimal attempt to figure anything out. He's a fairly plausible scumbuddy of Ghosting for the way he dismissed the wagon on him in one of his few posts, maybe.
I'm useless on D1. Like as an analyst.
Also, the seriousness of my # question did not turn out as I hoped. I think this lends credence to the "Iso doesn't want/like mod-gaming". Hunger's lack of desire to answer annoys me, I could be swayed towards voting him.
Can you point to my dismissal of the Ghosting wagon, because I don't remember doing that?
if the Ghosting wagon had any strength behind it, it would have persevered through my one-liner.
As for not lynching me, there are people that have actually been scummy (Kraj and Matowar, for example) and have some small consensus regarding their scumminess.
if the Ghosting wagon had any strength behind it, it would have persevered through my one-liner.
As for not lynching me, there are people that have actually been scummy (Kraj and Matowar, for example) and have some small consensus regarding their scumminess.
Big thumbs up to that first sentence. I like you.
Why matowar though? Does my "noob trying to improve" hard clear not do it for you?
/Head desk
I'm not a huge fan of noob clearing. However, I meant Mindreaver, I read the wrong row of my spreadsheet.
I didn't see any obvious bussing from Kraj's iso. Of course, this only gives points to people I'm already townreading (NaG, Mindreaver, TS,) and Matowar. Eh.
I'd like to think Iso wouldn't put a role like that in a Normal game, but I guess it's theoretically possible that Kraj thought he was a vanilla town, but he was actually mafia via this role?
Hum.
Might mean interactions are functionally meaningless though since we don't know what he knew, or what his scumbuddies knew, regarding alignments.
Even if you throw out death miller, there's a few possibilities.
1) Kraj thought he was town, but would be converted to scum if targeted by the night kill. He flipped scum for shiggles.
2) Kraj was scum without access to scum chat. He may or may not have known his scum buddies.
3) Kraj would have been converted to town if he had been lynched. We misplayed big and coulda lynched him tomorrow and gotten all his buddies from him. I would think a town vig shot would've counted as a lynch for turncoat, but maybe not.
4) Kraj's Turncoat role is something different.
5) This is not a normal normal. Not exclusive with 1 through 4.
@Blos - re:Kraj's iso: His first three posts are RVS and I don't get anything out of them, and then the rest of his posts seem pretty well thought out. He provides pretty good reasoning for his thoughts and goes after TS for not thinking through both town and scum motivations re:NAG. After some interaction with TS Kraj reasons that he is more likely town for the way TS OMGUS'd him. HP calls him out for his reasoning on TS and he expands further his thought process, which I find to be reasonable. He then places a vote on Mindreaver with what I think are OK arguments, but a bit shallow. I should probably go back and check if there was momentum on Mindreaver at that point. I also think Mindreaver is town which makes it a bit worse IMO. None of his arguments stand out as something that couldn't come from scum or town, but it makes me think whatever his alignment is he is a fairly capable player.
His most recent post is along similar lines of what we have been discussing with flavor. I tend to agree that there is more to the Bond role than what we know, but I'm not entirely sold on that making NAG scum. I guess now that I think about it I don't like that Kraj is totally bought into flavor-gaming and assumes that the fact that NAG doesn't fear a NK must mean he is scum while his entire attack on TS was predicated on not thinking through both sides of what it means for NAG being town and scum. Like, the fact that he has a pretty well substantiated lover claim seems like a pretty good reason to not fear a NK at this stage in the game, or you know he is Bond and is likely difficult to kill regardless of alignment so not sure why he couldn't be town/neutral that thinks he has a good chance to survive. Like, his suspicion I understand, but the conclusion that he must be scum and deserves a vote seems like a bit of a disconnect from his previous play.
I'm trying to figure out what scum has to gain with that attack on NAG though. It is a pretty risky attack for a scum in that position to make with most people accepting that they are indeed lovers. I want to see more of him when/if he fully catches up. After reading that I have him in my scum lean pile at the moment for the disconnect between his behavior and what he pushed TS for as well as his flimsy Mindreaver attack.
So, what did you see in his iso?
@Kraj - Reconcile your attack on TS for not thinking through both town and scum motivations of NAG's claim while you are voting NAG here and seemingly not considering the town/neutral motivations.
Here's the relevant stuff from Hunger responding to my Kraj ISO question.
Arrgh. So now we can't even use the vig flip? God damnit.
I was just looking at that Hunger post Blos. Almost looks like a softball after defending him, doesn't it? Or maybe light bussing. It says... something, any way. Maybe it's null and I'm just trying to find any pattern at this point.
I'd like 1-2 of the following players [Jobie, Hunter, Brinatoo, Huntzilla, Matowar], to read this: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=700341&by-author=Kraj carefully, and tell me what you think.
Others can do so as well, but hold off until at least 1-2 of those do it, please.
Rather, I encourage everyone to read it and form an opinion, but don't necessarily post it yet.
I'll give you my short opinion on his posts, though I might subconciously be biased because he shared an opinion on TS early. Every post leading up to the NAG one was reasonable with analysis/logical from a fixed viewpoint. The thing with the NAG post is, and I'll barn roughly what Proph said, it's assuming too many factors with how little info we have in the game so far. Plus I hate mod-gaming and flavor-gaming so I'm going to ignore that bit but I think the part about that post that has me leaning town motivation behind that is because Kraj is using situational/reactionary play in that scenario to scumhunt.
Though, I do have one question:
@Brinatoo: This may be something lost by simply ISOing you (so I don't get any context) but what happened to your scumread on TappingStones? Your last relevant post about Tapping was on post #161, then you vote Silvercrys. What's your read on TappingStones now, and why did you stop pressuring him? Are you still scumreading Silvercrys?
I still think TS is scum and I'll likely get to pointing other peoples posts tonight or tomorrow (satirically) to generalize my opinion on the situation. I think the meme that I could use to describe it is "playing chess with a pigeon." Look it up. To be brief on what that post will contain, I don't like meta-clearing people, it's too forgiving/easy to write someone off. Others have pointed out things that would lean town on him because of the meta while I beg to differ. Also the backlashing I'll agree could go either way and is null. Blos pointed out something recently where my head is that he is posting things to appear town. (#504) For Silverscrys, no- I'm back to null because his posts match with how I'm viewing his mindset. Could still be scum but my loose prodvote didn't spawn anything and I haven't seen anything change since with how he posts. [b]unvote[/b] I think the bolding isn't working and idk why, seems this curse client is frustrating.
@Kraj, Proph, Brinatoo, Hunger[/b] Pick a number 1-25, there is likely a wrong answer, but there may not be a right answer. If you do not respond within your next two posts you will be voted for.
I will say that if Kraj was a traitor (aka, scum team didn't know him, he didn't know them), it makes a lot more sense why he was so universally scum read with no real pushback.
Actually. Most of those responses you got were fairly thorough town leans, weren't they? Except Jobie.
Maybe sort through that pile again to see if there's anything else independently scummy. Sometimes Traitors know their teammates and just don't have access to scum chat.
That was a bit earlier in the day to be fair. I meant by the time the shot fired, almost no one seemed to have issue with it. (Although, duh, mafia aren't going to be like 'Nooooo don';t kill my buddy!'
I'll parse things more, I just wanted to go through and collect the data points I didn't pay a ton of attention to at the time since I was V/LA-ish.
From doing some research in the GoldenEye wiki Janus was in fact someone who betrayed James Bond, so that might be where "Turncoat" came from?
Quote from Kraj »
Vote: Jobie Because it was a good idea in Mushroom Kingdom.
Is it time to whip out the "I'm voting for my buddy in RVS" thing?
Quote from Kraj »
FoS: Hardwood Paneling Because I haven't Fingered anyone in yeeeeeears?
Huh. FoSing is still a scumtell.
Quote from Kraj »
I assume the "slowdown" is also why you didn't revote the correct player?
I understand your confused reaction at the James Bond claim. It's a natural, townie reaction to wonder why on earth a townie would do such a thing. Why didn't you give any thought to why a scum would? What does "trying too hard" mean?
On one hand you're confused about why NAG would claim the name in the game for no apparent reason and think through the reasons aloud. On the other hand, you're confident enough that it's either "fake" and "trying too hard", or a "terrible move", and you vote. The reasoning is flimsy, and the "lying or playing badly" accusation is a false dichotomy scum love to use. Combine that with the sloppiness of getting the name wrong, and the backpedaling 'slowdown', it looks a lot less like trying to figure the situation out and a lot more like fear of James Bond.
I'm rereading the Kraj interactions and I'm reasonably certain that TappingStones is cleared. It seemed like Kraj was trying to escape The Box and hop on townreads, which is where the hop on Mindreaver and TappingStones came from. The pushback here:
Quote from Kraj »
This nicely sums up my problem with TS's play, and his entire reaction to the pressure on him has been OMGUS, with flimsy or inconsistent logic. I've also seen scum implode to pressure on less evidence than this on day 1. If it were later in the game and I had made a full case on him and strongly felt he's scum, then I'd dismiss his defense as desperate flailing and push for his lynch. However, time and time again I've seen townies - particularly on day 1 - get stuck in the mindset that anyone attacking them must be scum because the only thing they know for sure is they are town. In fact, I just finished a game Manders ran on DiesToRemoval as scum and used that exact reaction to push a case on a townie. That's the read I get off of TS here and I'm reasonably certain he's town.
This feels much more like scum who realized that TappingStones would /not/ be a good mislynch to push, rather than a buddy hopping off on another one. So yeah, this pretty much nearly erases my doubts that TappingStones could be scum.
Quote from Kraj »
Has anyone played with TappingStones before? Is 'legitimately insane' a common read people have on him?
This feels like genuine incredulity, coming from scum!Kraj.
Same with the Mindreaver push, though that's not all that helpful.
Quote from Kraj »
Then GJ, whom I and several others read as town and (iirc) was under no pressure, claims neutral lover w NAG. I believe him.
I'm pretty sure not_a_gimmick is Not Mafia for the same reason (scum tend to be truthful when believing claims like this)
Quote from Kraj »
Seppel then claims Boris, a character that flavor-wise should obviously be mafia. Again, he does this unprompted and his reasoning makes sense, and I'm inclined to believe him.
Seppel is probably town due to this.
Quote from Kraj »
I am a Siberian Guard and am vanilla town, though I do have an item. Flavor-wise my expectation for a Russian guard would be mafia goon.
I am unsure what to make of this other than that the scumteam probably don't have safeclaims? Hm.
Quote from Kraj »
Because the mafia know from their collective roles that alignments don't all match flavor
This is probably true and will continue to make me disregard flavor.
Quote from Hunger »
@Kraj - Reconcile your attack on TS for not thinking through both town and scum motivations of NAG's claim while you are voting NAG here and seemingly not considering the town/neutral motivations.
This also feels like a scum softball, though I want to check to see if Hunger follows up on this.
Quote from Kraj »
Unvote
I don't trust my judgment. IMAB and Jobie?
Likely that he talked about imab (town?) and Jobie (possible scum).
Quote from Kraj »
Have I, other than asking just now whether lurking scum could be why your wagon hasn't taken off? It's not so much that I think you're town, it's that I've not seen much of a reason to think you're scum, and the reasons other people are giving for voting you - like overexplaining, and making one statement as if you knew a player's alignment (GJ, I think it was?) - have not convinced me.
Hmm. Would Kraj defend a scumbuddy so candidly like this?
I'm unsure.
Quote from Kraj »
Huh? I unvoted because of the claim, which I have no reason to disbelieve.
This is almost making me think that the Neutral claim is legit.
Quote from Kraj »
Regarding a not-me Vig: Matowar seems a fine choice to me. I still think the scum is likely lurking, as that's a tried and true method, and I don't have a solid behavior scumread on anyone. A very large portion of Matowar's posts have been 'helpful townie' or commenting about the game instead of real content. Jobie and IAMB have been similarly lurky; Jobie's posts seem to have more content but I don't get a good vibe from his posts. I don't think IMAB's 'good guy' breadcrumb means anything when we've established PM's contain a variety of language and some people aren't even sure of their own alignments, and I've seen little else from him except to say his breadcrumb makes him town.
If there's scum here, then Jobie is probably the most likely one. Matowar/IMAB/Jobie, scum listing out three names, two townies/one scum.
Unvote ; Vote: Jobie
If the interactions are legit then I'm tempted to believe that Ghosting is indeed a neutral and Jobie is scum. But it begs the question - why did none of the scum jump on Ghosting? Maybe both are scum? (That would be a reasonably likely possibility, but not going to get complacent still)
Yes I know you claimed. I still think you are scum. I plan on looking more at your wagon hopping and how they relate to your reads, but don't expect me to respond to your rebuttal because I'm done with this spam. You can still throw more info for everyone to look at but I gain nothing mentally from this banter.
Then get to your case, stop being lovestruck. And how do you like your meat? I like mine either medium well or well done Idk his meta nor would I use it as support for or against. Behaviorally, I would support the shot. For "scum trying to throw suspicion," I've been weighing between consciously doing it in the intended manner or just actively pushing his defense/conversation in one direction without looking back and accepting any other answer but his absolute opinion. I have a hard time believing anything but the latter.
If we had to take a shot at either Mato/IABM for lurking/being unhelpful in general, I wouldn't be opposed but I think we could gain more from Ghosting because of the wagon and the lynch afterwards. It would be two wagons or two birds one stone so to speak. Between Mato and IABM, Mato over IABM atm- subject to change if they both catch up on their activity whilst townie responses.
Most of us don't know him so the first part about a time-consuming play-style garners a shrug. The "apparently not working part" I'm unclear on. What part isn't working well? Him not posting at all? He's frustrated about being called scum. Well all players get frustrated by that, nothing interesting. "...or for reasons I can't do anything about..." why can't he do anything about it? He could provide a defense for literally any attack under the sun.
This is the type of thing that's really frustrating for ME
Are we wasting a kill because someone doesn't want to put in the effort to play? That's tilting. But at the very least it puts reality on the table for other people lurking that they could be next. I really don't like spewing off kills if people aren't invested. So if you are town, get invested. We are going to win, IF you try.
TS
Ghosting
Blos
Proph = 70%
Seppel
SilverCrystal
(Mod)
The bottom ten players make up slightly less than 30% of the posts.
Iso, THE MOD!!! has more posts than Brinatoo, Huntzilla, Hunger, Matowar, Kraj, and Jobie.
Iso has almost double the number of posts as Kraj and Jobie!
The way we've had no serious wagons or counterwagons (nobody's even been brought to L-2!!) makes me feel like we're absolutely steamrolling the scum. The "deep scum" as your put it (I like the term) is probably pissed at his team right now.
This fits in line with Kraj not being able to care if the rest of his team is being awful as well.
I'm not going to reveal who I've chosen yet, but I would very much like Kraj to post before I shoot. Either comment on Ghosting/Matowar/Literally anyone, or on your own position. Silence is not acceptable.
I'm still okay with either Mato or Kraj, however I agree that if Mato is scum, he will likely be found later.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
To be fair Kraj did ask to be shot in a recent post. He asked for scum to do it but i guess it shouldn't matter who pulls the trigger if you have a deathwish.
I'm vanilla, I've admittedly been lurky, and people have been calling me scum left and right all game. It's hard to argue with being vigged under those circumstances, and I'd rather be vigged than lynched. That said, my posts may be few but have always included actual content; I've analyzed players and made cases, I've answered questions directed at me, I've attempted to generate discussion in places other people weren't talking about, I've been unafraid to post unpopular opinions, and I'm trying to be relevant despite the massive amount of content generated while I was away. In short, if people find me scummy I can't help that, nor can I magically force myself to be better at finding scum, but I thought my play made it clear I was trying.
It doesn't help that, like Seppel, my item is better gone from the game than in the hands of scum. I have the Goldeneye Key, which makes the holder's killing ability unblockable. Being a "key" I suspect there is a 'lock' counterparty item it combines with. I'm inclined to pass it to Proph, Silver, or Blosc tonight, as they are my strongest townreads but obviously at this point I would do whatever the consensus is.
Unless you, Mindreaver, and NAG are all good liars, then my accuracy has been poor. If I'm not being effective and getting called scum at the same time, I'd say that's not 'working very well'.
I can't defend against attacks like "I don't like that post from Kraj". 90% of the negative comments about me have been vague or emotion-based. Almost everyone has called me scum at some point despite there never being an actual case made against me, or even more than one vote at a time. So... I dunno how to defend against that.
Regarding a not-me Vig: Matowar seems a fine choice to me. I still think the scum is likely lurking, as that's a tried and true method, and I don't have a solid behavior scumread on anyone. A very large portion of Matowar's posts have been 'helpful townie' or commenting about the game instead of real content. Jobie and IAMB have been similarly lurky; Jobie's posts seem to have more content but I don't get a good vibe from his posts. I don't think IMAB's 'good guy' breadcrumb means anything when we've established PM's contain a variety of language and some people aren't even sure of their own alignments, and I've seen little else from him except to say his breadcrumb makes him town.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Why do you trust Bloscovi? I've heard very little in solid logical language to promote him as town.
Quick do an interactions check on yourself. If you flip town are there any red flags that we can look to?
Can you some semblance of a scum team below the surface level?
If you are scum you could at least be a good sport and realize the jig is up. Give us a nice deep cackle and revel that the rest of us "Are fools if you think you'll catch Blos...I mean the rest of the scum team."
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I'm still looking at Ghosting (for a lynch, not a vig). His claim isn't confirmable, it's useful to town so it keeps him from getting lynched, the confirmable portion is useful for both alignments...
And there's probably at least one "deep scum" he could pass an item to publicly without arousing suspicion, confirming himself as "town" for giving "us" items instead of our scum reads. It would also be convenient for him if the people he passed items to didn't turn up dead for him since he claimed he protects them.
I'll (hopefully) have more after Mindreaver shoots... in about 4 hours, I think? But I'll be hanging around until then if anyone has questions or things I want to comment on.
In the meantime, I think my vote belongs back where it was. I wanted to reassess, but after thinking it over I still think he's the strongest scumspect.
Vote: Ghosting
Here is the thing Kraj. I had a very similar moment to Proph's table flip post. You *sound* sincere. But I can't ignore behavior.
Your item is strange for a vanilla to have. Somehow you'd have to pass it somewhere for it to be most effective, and you haven't gone out of your way to find the right person to pass it to. WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY ME AT THIS POINT. I can't tell you how frustrating it was to read "Being a "key" I suspect there is a 'lock' counterparty item it combines with." when I've already claimed that I can't open my briefcase, and was looking for a code or a key to do so. For you to follow up with "Oh, but I'd give it to these three..." was particularly galling.
If you haven't put in enough effort to find the "lock" for your key, even when the claim is right in your face, I don't know what to say. Ghosting can pick it up off your corpse tonight, and we can unlock the case that way, if we even want to go down that road.
Lets see.
Not who I would have vigged, after seeing that quote, but I respect the decision.
Just have to wait for the flip now, I suppose. Any last words Kraj?
The briefcase is an unopenable red herring, if I recall correctly.
This flavor moment brought to you by Seppel.
Also I highly recommend watching Goldeneye. It's a good bond flick. And there's a lot of bad Bond flicks (looking at you, The World Is Not Enough ("TWINE")).
As Sandra Diaz-Twine, two time winner of Survivor and my own private Goddess, once said: As Long As It Ain't me. Now that I've engaged in enough activity to avoid getting shot I'll go back to not doing anything. I'll keep my vote parked on Gentleman Johnny in case a wagon happens on him in my absence since he's obviously a lover with scum and thusly will never be shot. That's why he claimed.
Peace y'all.
"Oh? Show me."
The infantryman walked forward and pointed to Kraj, dressed in the Siberian Guard garb. "Him!"
"What proof do you have?"
"I saw him with an unauthorized computer device, sir!"
"Very well."
General Ourumov pulled out his pistol, and fired at Kraj. He fell to the floor, dead. The infantryman removed Kraj's mask to reveal...
Kraj is dead.
Carry on.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Maybe it's a list of the scum team?
And the GoldenEye Key is actually a computer program to trigger the satellite, not a physical key. Or am I reading the wiki wrong?
http://goldeneye.wikia.com/wiki/GoldenEye_Key
(I'm not really putting any emphasis on flavor gaming, here, just passing time until the Kraj flip).
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Nice shot though. Now to find his scum buddies...
I'll go back through his ISO, but it's of note that the pushes he had were in opposition to the Ghosting wagon, especially the Mindreaver hop.
Nice job Mindreaver.
Going to look through Kraj interactions.
Vote Ghosting
Hum.
What even is a Turncoat in this context I wonder - I know it's been an alignment-switching role in other games/communities, but I can't fathom that'd be allowed in a Normal here.
I asked a bunch of people to ISO Kraj and give their thoughts a week or two ago.
There could be some useful interactions in that mess.
On the scumhunting, and I'll start with the guy who was my second choice.
Vote Jobie
Turncoat = Traitor?
Kraj tried to deflect the vig shot to Matowar.
I didn't see any obvious bussing from Kraj's iso. Of course, this only gives points to people I'm already townreading (NaG, Mindreaver, TS,) and Matowar. Eh.
Would anyone like to talk about Kraj's #840?
Actually, I could get behind a Jobie lynch.
I asked him about Kraj, he voted Kraj, but didn't push it.
And then was like 'I'd rather lynch someone scummy like Kraj or Matowar (he meant Mindreaver), and then he voted Mindreaver.
Hum.
Kraj/Ghosting/Jobie/X? It'd be kind of hilarious.
Kraj/Ghosting/Hunger/Jobie.
Maybe Brinatoo if Ghosting is indeed Neutral.
The above is him responding (pretty fast) to my inquiry about Kraj, with a vote, but no push. Hum.
---
(and then he corrects it to:)
Hum. Thoughts? I could see it.
The traitor possibility is a problem. Here's another mention of Turncoat:
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Turncoat
I'd like to think Iso wouldn't put a role like that in a Normal game, but I guess it's theoretically possible that Kraj thought he was a vanilla town, but he was actually mafia via this role?
Hum.
Might mean interactions are functionally meaningless though since we don't know what he knew, or what his scumbuddies knew, regarding alignments.
That is 100% bastardly and should not be in a Normal game.
1) Kraj thought he was town, but would be converted to scum if targeted by the night kill. He flipped scum for shiggles.
2) Kraj was scum without access to scum chat. He may or may not have known his scum buddies.
3) Kraj would have been converted to town if he had been lynched. We misplayed big and coulda lynched him tomorrow and gotten all his buddies from him. I would think a town vig shot would've counted as a lynch for turncoat, but maybe not.
4) Kraj's Turncoat role is something different.
5) This is not a normal normal. Not exclusive with 1 through 4.
Here's the relevant stuff from Hunger responding to my Kraj ISO question.
I can't see a world where that guy was town.
Mafia Traitor
My guess is that Kraj was the second version i.e. a mafia traitor and not a literal "turncoat".
I was just looking at that Hunger post Blos. Almost looks like a softball after defending him, doesn't it? Or maybe light bussing. It says... something, any way. Maybe it's null and I'm just trying to find any pattern at this point.
Brinatoo's response.
Actually. Most of those responses you got were fairly thorough town leans, weren't they? Except Jobie.
Maybe sort through that pile again to see if there's anything else independently scummy. Sometimes Traitors know their teammates and just don't have access to scum chat.
I'll parse things more, I just wanted to go through and collect the data points I didn't pay a ton of attention to at the time since I was V/LA-ish.
Is it time to whip out the "I'm voting for my buddy in RVS" thing?
Huh. FoSing is still a scumtell.
I'm rereading the Kraj interactions and I'm reasonably certain that TappingStones is cleared. It seemed like Kraj was trying to escape The Box and hop on townreads, which is where the hop on Mindreaver and TappingStones came from. The pushback here:
This feels much more like scum who realized that TappingStones would /not/ be a good mislynch to push, rather than a buddy hopping off on another one. So yeah, this pretty much nearly erases my doubts that TappingStones could be scum.
This feels like genuine incredulity, coming from scum!Kraj.
Same with the Mindreaver push, though that's not all that helpful.
I'm pretty sure not_a_gimmick is Not Mafia for the same reason (scum tend to be truthful when believing claims like this)
Seppel is probably town due to this.
I am unsure what to make of this other than that the scumteam probably don't have safeclaims? Hm.
This is probably true and will continue to make me disregard flavor.
This also feels like a scum softball, though I want to check to see if Hunger follows up on this.
Likely that he talked about imab (town?) and Jobie (possible scum).
Hmm. Would Kraj defend a scumbuddy so candidly like this?
I'm unsure.
This is almost making me think that the Neutral claim is legit.
If there's scum here, then Jobie is probably the most likely one. Matowar/IMAB/Jobie, scum listing out three names, two townies/one scum.
Unvote ; Vote: Jobie
If the interactions are legit then I'm tempted to believe that Ghosting is indeed a neutral and Jobie is scum. But it begs the question - why did none of the scum jump on Ghosting? Maybe both are scum? (That would be a reasonably likely possibility, but not going to get complacent still)