KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It would be nice to figure out if votes for Tom are supposed to be there or not. Not surprisingly he flipped town.
Vote: Citric redirect to Dota.
Can't think of anything he has done this game, lurked hard through the day, Toms top scum read as well.
Hey Anak how's that T/S list you promised three days ago coming along? Oh, it doesn't exist and you're just going to put a vote on a random lurker instead? Cool.
If people want something to talk about, why not about how obvious a scum Anak is? You know, something actually productive.
It would be nice to figure out if votes for Tom are supposed to be there or not. Not surprisingly he flipped town.
Vote: Citric redirect to Dota.
Can't think of anything he has done this game, lurked hard through the day, Toms top scum read as well.
Hey Anak how's that T/S list you promised three days ago coming along? Oh, it doesn't exist and you're just going to put a vote on a random lurker instead? Cool.
If people want something to talk about, why not about how obvious a scum Anak is? You know, something actually productive.
I'm with this one.
He seems town, I lost my town friend. =/ I don't know what to do anymore. Azreal come back please, at least I know that you are probs neutral.
ALRIGHT. I've read the damn thing. I don't quite get how the game has produced a 1,227 post day one two and not managed to get anywhere, but I guess it's mostly due to all the lurking and replacements.
My first observation is that Tapping_Stones was obvious scum from like post #58. He voted hans, despite the fact that hans choosing to skip a cycle for some personal benefit is exactly the kind of weird, unilateral decision hans would make regardless of alignment. TS compounded his scumminess by repeatedly saying he could not see a town motivation for the action, while completely and absolutely failing to provide a scum motivation for it either. His OMGUS attack on Tom was quite simply laughable, and about the time at which I simply stopped reading TS' posts (this turned out to be a good idea). His claim of "pro town" neutral was somehow accepted by everyone with no proof or detail in the claim, and people just backed off. TS should have been lynched like 900 posts ago, and I'm amazed that his claim got him further away from the noose. Regardless, he's dead, and "Outsider Hitman" doesn't sound pro-town to me.
Second, imabusinesman was really scummy. This could be the wonders of hindsight talking, but his desire to point his vote at literally anything didn't exactly speak of someone interested in carefully finding scum. He's dead as well and scum, so that's good.
I think RobRoy, ghosting, Nacho, and Tom are town. RR and nacho are gut, Tom was right about TS and therefore gets bonus points. Ghosting's #512 thing about having some concrete reason Tom is scum indicates someone actively invested in hunting scum, even though it turned out to be wrong (and not something that can be discussed).
I think Proph almost certainly died because of his role, and not because someone else. I am sure we will hear from him again.
I think Nacho should only prevent a lynch if we lynch someone unintended due to this vote shifting thing going on, or if he genuinely thinks it's a terrible lynch (which he would hopefully make clear before it happens).
@D_V: You spent most of the early game trying to explore the setup, and not hunt scum. Then you spent a lot of time arguing with imabusinesman about avatars. These are not the actions of a scumhunting townie. Could you provide me a quick run down of your top town and scum reads? Also, will you be more corporeal tomorrow?
@GJ: Way back at the start of the game, you threatened to end the day by post 1000. Could you elaborate on why you have chosen not to, and also what you hoped to accomplish by making such a statement? Also, why should we trust the claim of a mason who's partner is conveniently not in a place to confirm them? Could you perhaps explain how we can get your partner into the game?
I've got some loose scum reads, but I need to go back and actually chew them over before I feel comfortable posting them. Too many people came up with no read on my first pass, and with my main suspects dead, I need to have a closer look and sort something out.
Finally, Azrael's role is like tailor made for him. He gets to sit outside the game, twirling his moustache and drinking his cognac, with a mod-mandated air of cryptic omniscience. I bet he's loving every second.
This post very nearly piqued my interest for a second
Ok. I think I have a townread on Hunt, a townread on GJohnny, a role-based townread on Necarg, and I'm null on most everyone else rn.
In the lens of just trying to solve the game, I'm glad Tomsloger is flipped because I was mildly scumreading him? But that's ok.
So I'm, a little confused. Are we voting to reveal someone, or voting to lynch someone, or did I get lost somewhere by someone posting something like that or such?
Also, has everyone else revealed some aspect of their role or something thus far? Should I do so also (seeing as my slot was completely silent so he can't have lol)?
-------------------------
I'll do Nacho things tomorrow, and also hopefully read Anak. Nacho comes first though. Oh, also need to look at Hunt's claim.
Also, has everyone else revealed some aspect of their role or something thus far? Should I do so also (seeing as my slot was completely silent so he can't have lol)?
I say hold off. We can talk abilities more toMorrow. I hope to have more to discuss then too.
In conclusion, Anak's game has been characterised by a huge amount of fence-sitting, unproductive musings on how gosh darn complicated this game is, and although he has asked a lot of questions, they have been inviting opinions while avoiding providing any of this own, and have never been followed up on. When Anak did eventually produce an actual read (out of a total of one), his vote is based on current hot-topic discussion, and never goes beyond that, even when catching IMAB in a lie. This lack of drive to lynch a suspect combines with Anak's own inconsistent language (being happy voting someone he consider only leaning scum), along with a total lack of scumhunting beyond his single vote clearly displays a complete disinterest in actually finding and lynching scum. This is, quite clearly, the mindset of scum looking to keep their head down and not commit to anything.
It might be useful if you reread my interactions with Iamab; you'll see that I asked him a few questions in various posts, responded to his questions, and noted my appreciation for his responses that, at the time, made me feel much better about him. Now I know I should've stuck to my gut, but that's in the past, and everyone pretty much disagreed with me that he was scummy.
Yeah, I wanted to go back and reread several people after finishing off the imab read, but haven't been able to yet. I'll keep this in mind.
Additionally, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Iamab did attack me as well.
He did an FOS of you in 623 (can't make the URL work), and had you on a couple 'leaning scum' lists, but never did anything that I considered a serious attack. (PPE: looks like this doesn't matter.)
Indeed. Assuming Azrael is on board with it, it would need to be an item that reveals your affiliation - not one that makes you look innocent.
I am actaully all for that, but not this early. The later we can have that ability work, the better. Having a confirmed town (or confirmed scum) close to lylo would obviously be very beneficial.
Aside from not trusting Azrael, is there a reason we can't do it again later?
Again, the wording implies two teams. Numbering them in effect seperates them. I feel like factions might also imply seperate win conditions, which makes a mafia supergroup makes less sense to me.
Only game I recall having two mafia factions was Cyberpunk, and IIRC they had seperate wincons, and didn't know who each other were.
Inheritance had a mostly-one-faction mafia, but with two potential leaders who couldn't co-win, and needed to screw the other one over to lead the team to victory. The phrasing of "all members of Mafia 2" seems to indicate that there were multiple members of Mafia 2, though.
Doomsday had two scum factions with very different paths to victory - the Hitlist mafia needed all of a specified list of characters dead, while the Doomsday mafia were trying to manipulate the countdown clock to hit midnight. That game was very open about the dual-scum-team split, though.
I'm a little curious about this reaction. Eco posted a significant analysis post, and while I haven't re-read Anak yet, it seemed solid to me. Why wouldn't you expect someone to feel better about a player after that?
I would just ask, go look what I have done through the lens of an uncertain town, as opposed to scum. A lot of what you said is just bad play tells, not really scumtells.
Hey Anak, know what a good cure is for being accused of not scumhunting? Scumhunting.
we really need to end this Day. our deadline is back in effect and could easily be soon. so im going to use this crazy amount of town cred i have to make it happen.
Right, the Day 1 / Day 2 deadline. I'd assume the timer reset some due to replacements coming in, but yeah, we should get moving.
i want everyone's next post to be voting one of those 4 people or telling us who you think it should be instead.
Anak I need to reread. DoTArchon got some negative points for the way imab talked about him (PPE: never mind), but his apparent desire to work out a deal with Azrael is a point in his favour. Huntzilla's claim isn't really a point in his favour, in my opinion, but the way he put it forward was. Necarg... huh. Just found this while checking if he had updated recently:
If Nacho's a liar in this scenario, it's still fine for me, as I get to still have some amount of fun post-mortem.
<snip>
I've already said this, and, while I hope Nacho will pardon me, I'm fine if he doesn't. I can still interact in the game post-mortem, so I'm cool with it.
This seems like win-win. If Necarg is scum, we lynch him. If he's town, then dead!Necarg is probably worth more to us than live!Necarg.
20) tomsloger, Tarhalindur (from Real Life), Townie Setup Analyst, was modkilled Day 2.
Sigh.
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Currently on-board with lynching Necarg. Want to reread Anak and Eco's case, but just his responses to the case support the lack of scumhunting, so he's in second place right now.
Also, has everyone else revealed some aspect of their role or something thus far? Should I do so also (seeing as my slot was completely silent so he can't have lol)?
I say hold off. We can talk abilities more toMorrow. I hope to have more to discuss then too.
Hold off as in, no lynch (no reveal?)? Why would that ever be a good idea?
He seems town, I lost my town friend. =/ I don't know what to do anymore. Azreal come back please, at least I know that you are probs neutral.
I'm following along, just finding it tough to summon up the willpower to do a gigantic PBPA on Nacho. I don't know that Nacho is someone I can easily read these days, so it seems like kind of a crappy PBPA target, but I guess it helps the town to know that at least my opinion on the matter is unbiased?
It also occurred to me that the Kanye West avatar thing might be a trap of some kind, which I would need to read the setup again to figure out for sure, which would just spoil all sorts of fun for me. Plus, I'd have a Kanye West avatar, and is that really worth taking someone's soul?
What's puzzling me is that both Imab and Leuko are specifically listed as modkilled in the the OP, but Hawk was "deleted" and listed in the dead column.
@Hunt - So does your ability mean that mafia have daychat? I'm really confused as to how your ability would resolve with two different mafias though.
I'll go back a check, but I feel like the biggest thing happening that early in the game was everyone taking sides on Tom vs. TS. If that timeframe matches up, I'd argue that's pretty strong evidence that Tom is town but I guess it's flawed in the sense that Tom could still be on the side of whichever mafia that didn't post that.
Hawk was shot by an ability.
The other two players were not. They were modkilled.
@Nacho: You say you won't govern Anak, but you also say that you haven't read his posts closely and get this "vaguely townish" feeling from him. This doesn't really match well. Why wouldn't you govern the guy you have as "vaguely town(/null?)" in your list. Please explain.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
My thoughts are with the friends and family of the Orlando Shooting victims and with the rest of the LGBTQA+ community.
Check out my Newborder Peasant Cube here! http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/37467
Necarg, please don't acknowledge this in any way whatsoever.
True Name Mafia (Win),Clan Contest IX Mafia (Win), Bravely Default Mafia (Loss), BOTAS (loss), BfV (Loss), Ace Attourney (loss)
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The people I won't govern aren't townreads. The people I will govern are.
How is this better than governing anyone regardless of who it is? Like if we lynch one of your scumreads and you're wrong about them, we'll have lost a townie. But if you govern them, we'll either know that they are, in fact, scum, in which case they'll either be vigged that night or lynched immediately the next day, or that they're town. Since you've already claimed, it makes no sense not to use your ability bc if you're town and choose not to use it, that paints a pretty big target on your head as far as the NK goes.
Also, governing would clear up the the issue of votes actually being redirected to different players, or if the vote counts just appear messed up.
Vote: RobRoy --> Anak
Private Mod Note
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"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
@Nacho: That's not the point. Here's how I see this whole thing:
Anak is on your "won't govern" list -> You want Anak dead -> You are scumreading Anak.
You say you haven't read Anak's posts and that he feels vaguely town -> You are slightly townreading (or nullreading) Anak.
-> Contradiction.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Huntzilla, your power is from Mafia 1's scum QT, correct? (aka you used it after mafia 2 was wiped out?)
I don't know which group it's from. I used way back towards the start of the game, between posts 120 and 121. I assumed it was two after the flips because of the way Hawk and leukocyte had played and the message content.
I have no way of knowing otherwise which it came from.
@Bur Hunt's claim feels weird to me the more I think about it. Initially I passed it off as legit, and something to trust for the time being, but less so now. A Spy is definitely a role that could exist inside of a Mind Screw game, but realistically how does work with 2 groups? I think that detail actually renders him claim incredibly suspect, because as claimed I can only see it work 1 of 2 ways. Either Tare randomly chooses 1 of the 2 teams to pull the latest content from, or Hunt gets the content from specifically 1 of the 2 groups determined at some point before.
Both of those don't really acknowledge the fact that the information he gets becomes pretty much worthless once it is known that there are 2 mafia groups though. In this case, where we see the message about the lurking, we know that one of the two groups must have said it, but its a WIFOM-fest trying to figure out each one, and since the other group didn't see that message, it leaves no impact on trying to find that group. It just feels so weak with 2 teams that I have a hard time believing it actually exists as claimed.
I thought I was going to have a lot of time over the weekend to get a nice list and reasoning posted, turned out I wound up having no time at all really. Here is the list below, will post more detailed reasoning through the day:
Town
RR (consistent, detailed, analytical thinking)
Necarg (don't believe a role that encourages less posting is one that would be given to scum)
Eco (good thought process and investigation, sure I'm his main subject but doesn't change the quality of work)
DV (scum having a role that isn't actually in the game? unlikely)
Nacho (governor is governor, fallacy or not, will figure out if he is lying eventually, no reason to really distrust him now)
KJ (good thoughts and general questions, couple odd votes though)
Ghosting (lots of words, but don't feel like he is saying a ton)
GJ (will resolve himself in time, may as well give him the chance, somewhat more likely to be town than not with that claim)
Citric (nothing really pulling me either way too hard, want to give more time to him)
Null
hans (wanting Nacho to use his ability unilaterally comes off as him wanting it wasted, whole point is Nacho getting to choose)
Hunt (Spy doesn't make a ton of sense in a game with multiple mafia teams)
Bur (lots of questions, not lots of anything else)
DotA (there is lurking, then there is hiding, believe this is becoming more the latter)
Scum
Hopefully that reads clearly, had to put it together in spurts throughout the morning
To elaborate:
2 Vacuous, safe town reads (RR and Me)
3 reads based solely on whether a role would be town or scum (i.e. means nothing in a game like this)
2 players which will just magically sort themselves out based on claims (also not really valid in a bastard game)
1 Replacement (which is a fair null read)
1 Herp derp, topical lurker is scum
2 Fencesits (KJ, Ghosting)
2 Actual reads, one of which (hans) doesn't even make sense. The Bur read is also very hand-wavy.
To the surprise of no-one, this scum list contains Anak's consistent lack of scumhunting and inability to come to a solid opinion. The laziness of bulking it out with modgaming and claim testing shows how desperate and lacking in actual reads Anak truly is.
@Nacho: That's not the point. Here's how I see this whole thing:
Anak is on your "won't govern" list -> You want Anak dead -> You are scumreading Anak.
You say you haven't read Anak's posts and that he feels vaguely town -> You are slightly townreading (or nullreading) Anak.
-> Contradiction.
"Feels vaguely town" doesn't equal a townread for me when I have strong townreads elsewhere and when this was a multi-scum faction game. That's what I'm clarifying for you.
Anak, why is Citric "town" and not "null"?
Vote: RobRoy --> Anak
Hans, if I think someone is likely to flip scum, I'd like to see them dead. If someone gives me little niggles of doubts before they're dead, I'll probably govern.
@Bur Hunt's claim feels weird to me the more I think about it. Initially I passed it off as legit, and something to trust for the time being, but less so now. A Spy is definitely a role that could exist inside of a Mind Screw game, but realistically how does work with 2 groups? I think that detail actually renders him claim incredibly suspect, because as claimed I can only see it work 1 of 2 ways. Either Tare randomly chooses 1 of the 2 teams to pull the latest content from, or Hunt gets the content from specifically 1 of the 2 groups determined at some point before.
Both of those don't really acknowledge the fact that the information he gets becomes pretty much worthless once it is known that there are 2 mafia groups though. In this case, where we see the message about the lurking, we know that one of the two groups must have said it, but its a WIFOM-fest trying to figure out each one, and since the other group didn't see that message, it leaves no impact on trying to find that group. It just feels so weak with 2 teams that I have a hard time believing it actually exists as claimed.
I thought I was going to have a lot of time over the weekend to get a nice list and reasoning posted, turned out I wound up having no time at all really. Here is the list below, will post more detailed reasoning through the day:
Town
RR (consistent, detailed, analytical thinking)
Necarg (don't believe a role that encourages less posting is one that would be given to scum)
Eco (good thought process and investigation, sure I'm his main subject but doesn't change the quality of work)
DV (scum having a role that isn't actually in the game? unlikely)
Nacho (governor is governor, fallacy or not, will figure out if he is lying eventually, no reason to really distrust him now)
KJ (good thoughts and general questions, couple odd votes though)
Ghosting (lots of words, but don't feel like he is saying a ton)
GJ (will resolve himself in time, may as well give him the chance, somewhat more likely to be town than not with that claim)
Citric (nothing really pulling me either way too hard, want to give more time to him)
Null
hans (wanting Nacho to use his ability unilaterally comes off as him wanting it wasted, whole point is Nacho getting to choose)
Hunt (Spy doesn't make a ton of sense in a game with multiple mafia teams)
Bur (lots of questions, not lots of anything else)
DotA (there is lurking, then there is hiding, believe this is becoming more the latter)
Scum
Hopefully that reads clearly, had to put it together in spurts throughout the morning
This feels gross.
I have clearly made mention of the fact that I have more to my role than JUST this.
Your scummy list though, is just yuck. I am not against Dota. But the reasons seem so fabricated. Not to mention what Eco said right below.
I am Dom Cobb (from Inception), Townie Dream Observer. At night, I choose someone to enter their dreams, and from there I can see what abilities (if any) they use and on who. Mostly a Tracker, but the screw comes in my one shot ability, Inception (heh). Once per game, upon receipt of my targets ability and target, I can plant an idea in their head to make them target someone of my choosing with the same ability (I can pick which ability if my target somehow has multiple). They are unaware of this, as is the point of Cobb's theory of Inception.
@Hunt Does your vote of me completely consist of me voting you? My reads are bleh, and you barn Eco, which sure, but anything?
@Bur They are very much a lean town read. Ghosting because even though he isn't saying a lot, the effort he is putting in and exposure he draws to himself by posting so often gives me a townie vibe from him. Citric is essentially null, nothing about him jumps out to me, hence the desire to see more from him especially as he is able to work into the game more.
To elaborate:
2 Vacuous, safe town reads (RR and Me)
3 reads based solely on whether a role would be town or scum (i.e. means nothing in a game like this)
2 players which will just magically sort themselves out based on claims (also not really valid in a bastard game)
1 Replacement (which is a fair null read)
1 Herp derp, topical lurker is scum
2 Fencesits (KJ, Ghosting)
2 Actual reads, one of which (hans) doesn't even make sense. The Bur read is also very hand-wavy.
To the surprise of no-one, this scum list contains Anak's consistent lack of scumhunting and inability to come to a solid opinion. The laziness of bulking it out with modgaming and claim testing shows how desperate and lacking in actual reads Anak truly is.
It is a little odd to consider yourself a safe town read, I don't recall that being a giant consensus or anything. Sure your wagon is pushing along, but you being safe town isn't quite that set in stone. GJ and Nacho will sort themselves out, something a lot of people believe, along with thinking Dota's lurking is scummy, RR as town is another somewhat widespread thought. But I only see you pushing me for them, why not others? Because it just makes it convenient to use those points to make me sound more scummy?
Ah yeah, I strongly townread him because of his claim (Hunt)
Unvote
I would like Anaklusmos to use his ability on me tonight. I can guarantee proving the validity of his claim tomorrow, or at least the validity of the night action that he has
It is a little odd to consider yourself a safe town read, I don't recall that being a giant consensus or anything. Sure your wagon is pushing along, but you being safe town isn't quite that set in stone. GJ and Nacho will sort themselves out, something a lot of people believe, along with thinking Dota's lurking is scummy, RR as town is another somewhat widespread thought. But I only see you pushing me for them, why not others? Because it just makes it convenient to use those points to make me sound more scummy?
FYI attempting to discredit me and justifying some of your reads by "it's what other people think" isn't really doing you any favours. Tracker claim doesn't dissuade in the least.
However, I recommend we hold off finishing off the lynch until we get a vote count please just to make sure we don't accidentally try to lynch RobRoy.
Ah yeah, I strongly townread him because of his claim (Hunt)
Unvote
I would like Anaklusmos to use his ability on me tonight. I can guarantee proving the validity of his claim tomorrow, or at least the validity of the night action that he has
But...why? Why do you care about proving his claim? Tracker isn't a particularly strong role, nor is it something that would be auto-town, even in a non-bastard game.
It is a little odd to consider yourself a safe town read, I don't recall that being a giant consensus or anything. Sure your wagon is pushing along, but you being safe town isn't quite that set in stone. GJ and Nacho will sort themselves out, something a lot of people believe, along with thinking Dota's lurking is scummy, RR as town is another somewhat widespread thought. But I only see you pushing me for them, why not others? Because it just makes it convenient to use those points to make me sound more scummy?
FYI attempting to discredit me and justifying some of your reads by "it's what other people think" isn't really doing you any favours. Tracker claim doesn't dissuade in the least.
However, I recommend we hold off finishing off the lynch until we get a vote count please just to make sure we don't accidentally try to lynch RobRoy.
Ah yeah, I strongly townread him because of his claim (Hunt)
Unvote
I would like Anaklusmos to use his ability on me tonight. I can guarantee proving the validity of his claim tomorrow, or at least the validity of the night action that he has
But...why? Why do you care about proving his claim? Tracker isn't a particularly strong role, nor is it something that would be auto-town, even in a non-bastard game.
/barn this whole thing. Anak's claim doesn't cut it for me in the slightest, and I don't care about him proving it.
My thoughts are with the friends and family of the Orlando Shooting victims and with the rest of the LGBTQA+ community.
Check out my Newborder Peasant Cube here! http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/37467
Necarg, please don't acknowledge this in any way whatsoever.
True Name Mafia (Win),Clan Contest IX Mafia (Win), Bravely Default Mafia (Loss), BOTAS (loss), BfV (Loss), Ace Attourney (loss)
Rules Advisor before they were eradicated
It is a little odd to consider yourself a safe town read, I don't recall that being a giant consensus or anything. Sure your wagon is pushing along, but you being safe town isn't quite that set in stone. GJ and Nacho will sort themselves out, something a lot of people believe, along with thinking Dota's lurking is scummy, RR as town is another somewhat widespread thought. But I only see you pushing me for them, why not others? Because it just makes it convenient to use those points to make me sound more scummy?
FYI attempting to discredit me and justifying some of your reads by "it's what other people think" isn't really doing you any favours. Tracker claim doesn't dissuade in the least.
However, I recommend we hold off finishing off the lynch until we get a vote count please just to make sure we don't accidentally try to lynch RobRoy.
Ah yeah, I strongly townread him because of his claim (Hunt)
Unvote
I would like Anaklusmos to use his ability on me tonight. I can guarantee proving the validity of his claim tomorrow, or at least the validity of the night action that he has
But...why? Why do you care about proving his claim? Tracker isn't a particularly strong role, nor is it something that would be auto-town, even in a non-bastard game.
I agree with this. Tracker is not town, and the second ability actually seems almost scummy to me.
Ugh I am conflicted. I like the case overall, but I also find the role claim to be possible as well.
I'm a fence sitter on this one bois, I would love to see our pardon used or not, what ever.
Ok.
I'm gonna have to V/LA until Sunday night because it's Easter weekend and I work in a grocery store.
I will not really be able to post, I will make an effort to reread Anak, Hunt, Bur and Nec over that time though to see if we can't agree on a good lynch.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
"One cannot know the position and momentum of a particle at the same time."
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I am getting extraordinarily annoyed at the MTGS posting interface, which apparently ate the Eleventh Vote Count rather than posting it. I apologize for not realizing that it hadn't posted.
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Well, I'm glad my read on tom was accurate, but what was he modkilled for‽ If I'm not allowed to ask that, please disregard, I don't want to get modkilled too.
Check the red text in post 21 again, it might be relevant...
In twilight, will you announce who is actually being lynched, as opposed to who has all the votes?
Classified information! (But in past Mind Screws the answer would have been "No", so there's that...)
Also, a useful piece of advice: In past Mind Screws, anything could be voted for, except for the things that can't.
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The Twelfth Vote Count (aka the "Tick, Tick, Tick" Vote Count)
Hunts claim: He said it was originally a 2 shot ability but is now used up. I think he would have gotten the latest post from mafia 1, and then the second shot would be from mafia 2. Could have been a hint that there were multiple scum teams. The only thing tripping me up is how overpowered it could have been, i.e. if the post he pulled happened to mention most if not all the team members by name. Would Hunt be bold enough to make up an ability like that?
Taredas voting for Necarg:
Azreal - I've decided. Give me a one shot reviver and my soul is yours.
Test: Unvote. Vote: 7Hawk77
I think the dead players are still "on the list" and their slots count when calculating votes.
Hunts claim: He said it was originally a 2 shot ability but is now used up. I think he would have gotten the latest post from mafia 1, and then the second shot would be from mafia 2. Could have been a hint that there were multiple scum teams. The only thing tripping me up is how overpowered it could have been, i.e. if the post he pulled happened to mention most if not all the team members by name. Would Hunt be bold enough to make up an ability like that?
Taredas voting for Necarg:
Azreal - I've decided. Give me a one shot reviver and my soul is yours.
Test: Unvote. Vote: 7Hawk77
I think the dead players are still "on the list" and their slots count when calculating votes.
I can submit that, but the "balanced version" stipulation on that ability makes me think it could be one hell of a drawback. Final answer?
Hey Anak how's that T/S list you promised three days ago coming along? Oh, it doesn't exist and you're just going to put a vote on a random lurker instead? Cool.
If people want something to talk about, why not about how obvious a scum Anak is? You know, something actually productive.
I'm with this one.
He seems town, I lost my town friend. =/ I don't know what to do anymore. Azreal come back please, at least I know that you are probs neutral.
This post very nearly piqued my interest for a second
In the lens of just trying to solve the game, I'm glad Tomsloger is flipped because I was mildly scumreading him? But that's ok.
So I'm, a little confused. Are we voting to reveal someone, or voting to lynch someone, or did I get lost somewhere by someone posting something like that or such?
Anyone have any questions for me or anything?
Also, has everyone else revealed some aspect of their role or something thus far? Should I do so also (seeing as my slot was completely silent so he can't have lol)?
Weren't you going to do these items?
I say hold off. We can talk abilities more toMorrow. I hope to have more to discuss then too.
Interesting. Will need to reread.
Yeah, I wanted to go back and reread several people after finishing off the imab read, but haven't been able to yet. I'll keep this in mind.
He did an FOS of you in 623 (can't make the URL work), and had you on a couple 'leaning scum' lists, but never did anything that I considered a serious attack. (PPE: looks like this doesn't matter.)
Aside from not trusting Azrael, is there a reason we can't do it again later?
I was quoting the Y2K episode of Family Guy. Just a bit of whimsy.
Inheritance had a mostly-one-faction mafia, but with two potential leaders who couldn't co-win, and needed to screw the other one over to lead the team to victory. The phrasing of "all members of Mafia 2" seems to indicate that there were multiple members of Mafia 2, though.
Doomsday had two scum factions with very different paths to victory - the Hitlist mafia needed all of a specified list of characters dead, while the Doomsday mafia were trying to manipulate the countdown clock to hit midnight. That game was very open about the dual-scum-team split, though.
I'm a little curious about this reaction. Eco posted a significant analysis post, and while I haven't re-read Anak yet, it seemed solid to me. Why wouldn't you expect someone to feel better about a player after that?
Hey Anak, know what a good cure is for being accused of not scumhunting? Scumhunting.
Right, the Day 1 / Day 2 deadline. I'd assume the timer reset some due to replacements coming in, but yeah, we should get moving.
Anak I need to reread. DoTArchon got some negative points for the way imab talked about him (PPE: never mind), but his apparent desire to work out a deal with Azrael is a point in his favour. Huntzilla's claim isn't really a point in his favour, in my opinion, but the way he put it forward was. Necarg... huh. Just found this while checking if he had updated recently:
This seems like win-win. If Necarg is scum, we lynch him. If he's town, then dead!Necarg is probably worth more to us than live!Necarg.
vote: nachomomma8.
So imab, leuko, and Hawk were all on the same team. Huh. Didn't expect that after my rereads of them.
Sigh.
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Currently on-board with lynching Necarg. Want to reread Anak and Eco's case, but just his responses to the case support the lack of scumhunting, so he's in second place right now.
Hold off as in, no lynch (no reveal?)? Why would that ever be a good idea?
I'm following along, just finding it tough to summon up the willpower to do a gigantic PBPA on Nacho. I don't know that Nacho is someone I can easily read these days, so it seems like kind of a crappy PBPA target, but I guess it helps the town to know that at least my opinion on the matter is unbiased?
It also occurred to me that the Kanye West avatar thing might be a trap of some kind, which I would need to read the setup again to figure out for sure, which would just spoil all sorts of fun for me. Plus, I'd have a Kanye West avatar, and is that really worth taking someone's soul?
Do you really think that I'd try a cult avatar trap on someone who knows more about the setup than anyone else?
Mafia 2 has been eliminated. Hawk, IMAB, Leuko were the entirety of Mafia 2. This has been confirmed by Tar in red text.
Hawk was shot by an ability.
The other two players were not. They were modkilled.
DoT
GJ
Ghosting
Huntzilla
Ecophagy
Killjoy
Necarg
RobRoy
LYNCHES I WON'T GOVERN:
Ank
Bur
Citric
Hans
Vote: Ghosting
(redirect to Hans)
Huntzilla, your power is from Mafia 1's scum QT, correct? (aka you used it after mafia 2 was wiped out?)
@Necarg: You too. What do you think of Hunt's claim?
@Ghostling: What is your read on Hunt?
@Anak: When do we get that T/S list? And what is your opinion on Hunt's claim?
@Nacho: You say you won't govern Anak, but you also say that you haven't read his posts closely and get this "vaguely townish" feeling from him. This doesn't really match well. Why wouldn't you govern the guy you have as "vaguely town(/null?)" in your list. Please explain.
THIS TOTALLY WASN'T MY EDIT TO MY HOME POST NO REALLY
JUST PLEASE FORGIVE MEEEEEEEE
On an unrelated note, remember to bookmark my home post (#1177 on Pg 24)
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True Name Mafia (Win),Clan Contest IX Mafia (Win), Bravely Default Mafia (Loss), BOTAS (loss), BfV (Loss), Ace Attourney (loss)
Rules Advisor before they were eradicated
Also, governing would clear up the the issue of votes actually being redirected to different players, or if the vote counts just appear messed up.
Vote: RobRoy --> Anak
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
@Nacho: That's not the point. Here's how I see this whole thing:
Anak is on your "won't govern" list -> You want Anak dead -> You are scumreading Anak.
You say you haven't read Anak's posts and that he feels vaguely town -> You are slightly townreading (or nullreading) Anak.
-> Contradiction.
I don't know which group it's from. I used way back towards the start of the game, between posts 120 and 121. I assumed it was two after the flips because of the way Hawk and leukocyte had played and the message content.
I have no way of knowing otherwise which it came from.
Both of those don't really acknowledge the fact that the information he gets becomes pretty much worthless once it is known that there are 2 mafia groups though. In this case, where we see the message about the lurking, we know that one of the two groups must have said it, but its a WIFOM-fest trying to figure out each one, and since the other group didn't see that message, it leaves no impact on trying to find that group. It just feels so weak with 2 teams that I have a hard time believing it actually exists as claimed.
I thought I was going to have a lot of time over the weekend to get a nice list and reasoning posted, turned out I wound up having no time at all really. Here is the list below, will post more detailed reasoning through the day:
Town
RR (consistent, detailed, analytical thinking)
Necarg (don't believe a role that encourages less posting is one that would be given to scum)
Eco (good thought process and investigation, sure I'm his main subject but doesn't change the quality of work)
DV (scum having a role that isn't actually in the game? unlikely)
Nacho (governor is governor, fallacy or not, will figure out if he is lying eventually, no reason to really distrust him now)
KJ (good thoughts and general questions, couple odd votes though)
Ghosting (lots of words, but don't feel like he is saying a ton)
GJ (will resolve himself in time, may as well give him the chance, somewhat more likely to be town than not with that claim)
Citric (nothing really pulling me either way too hard, want to give more time to him)
Null
hans (wanting Nacho to use his ability unilaterally comes off as him wanting it wasted, whole point is Nacho getting to choose)
Hunt (Spy doesn't make a ton of sense in a game with multiple mafia teams)
Bur (lots of questions, not lots of anything else)
DotA (there is lurking, then there is hiding, believe this is becoming more the latter)
Scum
Hopefully that reads clearly, had to put it together in spurts throughout the morning
2 Vacuous, safe town reads (RR and Me)
3 reads based solely on whether a role would be town or scum (i.e. means nothing in a game like this)
2 players which will just magically sort themselves out based on claims (also not really valid in a bastard game)
1 Replacement (which is a fair null read)
1 Herp derp, topical lurker is scum
2 Fencesits (KJ, Ghosting)
2 Actual reads, one of which (hans) doesn't even make sense. The Bur read is also very hand-wavy.
To the surprise of no-one, this scum list contains Anak's consistent lack of scumhunting and inability to come to a solid opinion. The laziness of bulking it out with modgaming and claim testing shows how desperate and lacking in actual reads Anak truly is.
"Feels vaguely town" doesn't equal a townread for me when I have strong townreads elsewhere and when this was a multi-scum faction game. That's what I'm clarifying for you.
Anak, why is Citric "town" and not "null"?
Vote: RobRoy --> Anak
Hans, if I think someone is likely to flip scum, I'd like to see them dead. If someone gives me little niggles of doubts before they're dead, I'll probably govern.
Awkward question, but what was Hunt's claim again?
@Anak: Why are Ghostling and Citric town? Your reasoning doesn't really make them sound towny...
This feels gross.
I have clearly made mention of the fact that I have more to my role than JUST this.
Your scummy list though, is just yuck. I am not against Dota. But the reasons seem so fabricated. Not to mention what Eco said right below.
Unvote
Vote RobRoy ----> Anak
I like this wagon to end the day.
I am Dom Cobb (from Inception), Townie Dream Observer. At night, I choose someone to enter their dreams, and from there I can see what abilities (if any) they use and on who. Mostly a Tracker, but the screw comes in my one shot ability, Inception (heh). Once per game, upon receipt of my targets ability and target, I can plant an idea in their head to make them target someone of my choosing with the same ability (I can pick which ability if my target somehow has multiple). They are unaware of this, as is the point of Cobb's theory of Inception.
@Hunt Does your vote of me completely consist of me voting you? My reads are bleh, and you barn Eco, which sure, but anything?
@Bur They are very much a lean town read. Ghosting because even though he isn't saying a lot, the effort he is putting in and exposure he draws to himself by posting so often gives me a townie vibe from him. Citric is essentially null, nothing about him jumps out to me, hence the desire to see more from him especially as he is able to work into the game more.
It is a little odd to consider yourself a safe town read, I don't recall that being a giant consensus or anything. Sure your wagon is pushing along, but you being safe town isn't quite that set in stone. GJ and Nacho will sort themselves out, something a lot of people believe, along with thinking Dota's lurking is scummy, RR as town is another somewhat widespread thought. But I only see you pushing me for them, why not others? Because it just makes it convenient to use those points to make me sound more scummy?
Unvote
I would like Anaklusmos to use his ability on me tonight. I can guarantee proving the validity of his claim tomorrow, or at least the validity of the night action that he has
FYI attempting to discredit me and justifying some of your reads by "it's what other people think" isn't really doing you any favours. Tracker claim doesn't dissuade in the least.
However, I recommend we hold off finishing off the lynch until we get a vote count please just to make sure we don't accidentally try to lynch RobRoy.
But...why? Why do you care about proving his claim? Tracker isn't a particularly strong role, nor is it something that would be auto-town, even in a non-bastard game.
/barn this whole thing. Anak's claim doesn't cut it for me in the slightest, and I don't care about him proving it.
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True Name Mafia (Win),Clan Contest IX Mafia (Win), Bravely Default Mafia (Loss), BOTAS (loss), BfV (Loss), Ace Attourney (loss)
Rules Advisor before they were eradicated
@Citric I will gladly target you and prove myself tonight if given the chance.
I agree with this. Tracker is not town, and the second ability actually seems almost scummy to me.
Ugh I am conflicted. I like the case overall, but I also find the role claim to be possible as well.
I'm a fence sitter on this one bois, I would love to see our pardon used or not, what ever.
I'm gonna have to V/LA until Sunday night because it's Easter weekend and I work in a grocery store.
I will not really be able to post, I will make an effort to reread Anak, Hunt, Bur and Nec over that time though to see if we can't agree on a good lynch.
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I am getting extraordinarily annoyed at the MTGS posting interface, which apparently ate the Eleventh Vote Count rather than posting it. I apologize for not realizing that it hadn't posted.
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Well, I'm glad my read on tom was accurate, but what was he modkilled for‽ If I'm not allowed to ask that, please disregard, I don't want to get modkilled too.
Check the red text in post 21 again, it might be relevant...
In twilight, will you announce who is actually being lynched, as opposed to who has all the votes?
Classified information! (But in past Mind Screws the answer would have been "No", so there's that...)
Also, a useful piece of advice: In past Mind Screws, anything could be voted for, except for the things that can't.
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The Twelfth Vote Count (aka the "Tick, Tick, Tick" Vote Count)
2) Anaklusmos (6) -
3) Bur (0) -
4) CitricBase (rep. Darth Melvin) (0) - DoTArchon, Anaklusmos
6) DoTArchon (2) -
7) Gentleman Johnny (0) -
8) Ghosting (0) -
9) hansanator (0) - Killjoy
10) Huntzilla (0) -
11) Ecophagy (rep. Jobie) (0) -
13) Killjoy (0) -
15) Nachomamma8 (0) -
16) Necarg (0) - Taredas
18) RobRoy (1) - D_V, Ecophagy, Gentleman Johnny, hansanator, Nachomamma8, Huntzilla
Not Voting (8?) - Bur, CitricBase, Ghosting, Necarg, RobRoy
With ??? votes in play it takes ??? votes to lynch.
Day 1 Deadline: [REDACTED - Rule 0]
End point of order![/quote]
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Time to divide our votes to figure out how to lynch Anak.
1) Lain Iwakura
2) Rod Serling
3) Zaphod Beeblebrox
4) Shinji Ikari
5) Akemi Homura
6) Kuu
7) Kindergarten Class
Tarades, Azreal and Anak.
Unvote Vote Anak
Everyone pick something else.
The Jabberwock, With Eyes Aflame (Replacements):
1) HookerPunch
2) Iso
3) Rhand
Vote: No Lynch
Let's see if this does anything.
Unvote, Vote: Kindergarten Class
Mod are you 100% sure on that votecount? I think DoTArchon should have (2) rather than (1), and I have no idea how "Not Voting" gets 13.
Hunts claim: He said it was originally a 2 shot ability but is now used up. I think he would have gotten the latest post from mafia 1, and then the second shot would be from mafia 2. Could have been a hint that there were multiple scum teams. The only thing tripping me up is how overpowered it could have been, i.e. if the post he pulled happened to mention most if not all the team members by name. Would Hunt be bold enough to make up an ability like that?
Taredas voting for Necarg:
Azreal - I've decided. Give me a one shot reviver and my soul is yours.
Test:
Unvote.
Vote: 7Hawk77
I think the dead players are still "on the list" and their slots count when calculating votes.
I can submit that, but the "balanced version" stipulation on that ability makes me think it could be one hell of a drawback. Final answer?