Pleasantly surprised we won, thought we were heading for a loss for sure with Family dead. Nice outcome to the whole situation, I guess.
Having family dead was the best thing that could happen. He was personally attacking everyone and claiming just about every town play was scum. After he left we immediately eliminated all scum.
@PJ: Half of the players in this game are saying we're the worst people ever, and the other half are saying "good job, Family." I guess what I'm trying to get at is that just because you don't like that I attempted to get a few people in the game to critically analyze the situation instead of accepting "lol VT claim bye" does not mean that I'm a horrible person, or even wrong about my theorycrafting. Games have been won off of taking a VT claim at face value and re-assessing the game as a result. Just because you can run someone up doesn't mean that they should be the lynch - their reaction, mindset, and claim should all be taken into account and to see if there is consistency throughout. Sticking to your guns about this shows a lack of willingness to grow as a player and improve your reads, and it always seems to be the "old guard" of players that complain about people not blindly accepting "lynch claimed VT theory".
Times have changed. Maybe you should, too.
-
@TS: It's been established that I did not personally attack anyone so much as call their play into question. Also, "claimimg just about every town play was scum"? What does that even mean? And what does us leaving the game have to do with eliminating the scum?
We eliminated all the scum after we lynched Crafters on Day 1, too. Was that also the best thing that could have happened?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@PJ: Half of the players in this game are saying we're the worst people ever, and the other half are saying "good job, Family." I guess what I'm trying to get at is that just because you don't like that I attempted to get a few people in the game to critically analyze the situation instead of accepting "lol VT claim bye" does not mean that I'm a horrible person, or even wrong about my theorycrafting. Games have been won off of taking a VT claim at face value and re-assessing the game as a result. Just because you can run someone up doesn't mean that they should be the lynch - their reaction, mindset, and claim should all be taken into account and to see if there is consistency throughout. Sticking to your guns about this shows a lack of willingness to grow as a player and improve your reads, and it always seems to be the "old guard" of players that complain about people not blindly accepting "lynch claimed VT theory".
Times have changed. Maybe you should, too.
Okay, do you not see how this is a personal attack? This is exactly the sort of thing that makes me want to avoid you. I can appreciate some good hyperbole in the name of making a point, but the tone and the silly assumptions you're making about what I think and why are offensive to me. I don't care a bit about whether or not you get any credit for your strategy this game. All I've been trying to do is get you to see that ^^this^^ stuff is not okay. You're ruining the game for everyone.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The whole idea of LVP is pretty crappy. It's highly subjective and it's just saying "you suck", we shouldn't need to point out who we think played the worst. It's childish and just leads to arguments, which this website seems to be full of.
Please explain to me how that is anything but constructive criticism.
De-personalizing your speech goes a long way. Using nonspecific pronouns like "one" instead of "you" turns what could be a personal attack into an impersonal statement. Beyond simply replacing pronouns, try to approach the criticism itself from a mindset of addressing the subject in broad terms rather than leveling criticism at an individual. [/editor]
The whole idea of LVP is pretty crappy. It's highly subjective and it's just saying "you suck", we shouldn't need to point out who we think played the worst. It's childish and just leads to arguments, which this website seems to be full of.
I only really consider LVP for things that go beyond the scope of poor play and into actively sabotaging the game (hence the Flamingo vote for that) or who are just such VIs that there's really no excuse. Or, like, vigs who hit nothing but town multiple times. Things that go well and clearly beyond just "not playing well."
Also Iso: Tone is another serious aspect to consider. Like, when I pointed out your results don't fit your highly revisionist and confirmation-bias prone self-assessment, you immediately shifted into a demanding, almost accusatory tone (hence why I didn't bother pursing that, because it obviously got under your skin to the point of agitating you and that wasn't where I was trying to go with that). Here you're making another confrontational post with the "times have changed, you should too" thing and just plain not seeing how that delivery is any different from your subsequent rewording. You boast about your Mafia ability, so you ought to be able to tell the different connotations that stem from wording things in different ways. Apply that skill to yourself and you'll get less complaints about ruining games for people. Hell, I actively went with a deliberately trollish playstyle and yet you're the one people are saying they want to avoid and how you dying was the best thing that happened. That should tell you something.
RE: Revisionist/confirmation-bias: At which specific point are you referring to? Because you, PJ, and TS are all personally attacking me (fancy that!) and you've said quite a bit about that.
As far as wordings, is it possible that my tone is simply being misunderstood with the way that I initially phrase things? I feel like we're all punting at different goalposts, here, because you three feel like I'm personally attacking people and of everyone else that's commented on the matter, as well as a few people I won't name but have discussed this privately with, no one else thinks I crossed the line.
There are certain definites in Mafia. Family was town - that was a definite. When I say "think critically" and you say "thinking critically doesn't mean 'agree with Iso'", in the case of a definite, it absolutely does. So when you don't come to the correct conclusion, I have to assume that your worldview on the state of the game needs to be reprocessed, or that you're not comprehending something correctly, or that you missed some information or something. I understand that people are unable to separate themselves from their observations and the lens through which they think, most of the time. But it is inarguable that we were town and that lynching town is not part of the town's win condition. So how am I at fault for questioning your impartiality or deductive reasoning on the matter? I'm not saying, "Hey, you're stupid, you're an idiot." That's absolutely over the line. But saying something to the same effect of, "You really need to reassess where you are with your reads in the game right now," is in no way a personal attack. Saying "Iso ruined the game for everyone" absolutely is. I can forgive TappingStones for his view on this because he's new and might not be familiar with the level of thick-skinnedness that one must adopt when on the Mafia battlefield. But Teia, I really feel like you're allowing some sort of personal distaste for me color your approach to this - which I don't really understand, because I always thought we were on good terms.
As for Puddlejumper, well, I don't really know what to say. I've wanted to play with you (and your alter ego) since I began playing Mafia, as you may recall regarding a PM I sent to you several years ago to the effect of "you should totally get back into Mafia!" Again, I'm sorry you feel like I ruined the game, because that's absolutely not the first impression I want to make on anybody - new player, vet, or what have you - but I am simply incapable of seeing what I did wrong, here. Maybe my posts were worded a little harshly, but my intention was never to make anybody feel personally attacked.
I'm driving myself a little crazy with this, because on one hand, I know exactly what I meant and how, and maybe you three are incapable of taking someone's assessment of your play and separating it from the non-existent subtext of "this means you are an idiot". (And no, that's not meant as a personal attack, it's meant as a possible explanation for the phenomenon we are witnessing, here.) My Mafia persona is very self-aggrandizing and self-assured and probably comes across as downright ********ishly arrogant; but as far as OoG is concerned, my Mafia persona is only a parody of the way people see me in-game, ironically. My constant outward reinforcement of myself is a playstyle choice, because oftentimes, shouting something loudly enough (e.g. "Look at how right I am!") gets it to resonate through people's heads. On the other hand, maybe because my Mafia persona is such a dissociation with who I actually am as a person it has led to me not understanding how anyone can take MafiaIso at face value when I know that's not who I am. I have some more thoughts on this but it's a little incoherent and rambly past a certain point so I'll cut it off there.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It was hard for many of us to believe your case against limited because it hinged largely (through your dialogue) on me being his scum buddy. Which turns out I wasn't. I, in fact never once backed up or supported limited. Yet you still made a huge deal out of us being "scum buddies". Can you see where the faulty logic and "definite" wrongness of that attack lead to your downfall?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well, no, because I clearly stated that Limited's scumminess was independent of our read on you.
Could you provide the rock solid evidence on the "scum buddies" argument? Knowing that I was Town (obviously) and seeing that you had been 0-2 in your "easy game" choices I had a hard time buying the limited argument. You may have even had a good argument but it was wrapped up in being from my perspective (0-3) on calling scum, later limited would be revealed scum so I'll give you that one. But at the time you were clearly (0-3) on your reads and telling us we were stupid for not following you. You told Teia she was voting with the "scum buddies" when in fact I was not scum at all, nor ever acted as such. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DIDN"T TRUST YOU or FELT YOU WERE FULL OF IT.
Your post game analysis has been useful to me as a new player but IN GAME you were super hard to work with...which is not very town like (IMO).
Really? I feel like mafia are less opposed to going with the flow, versus town, who should definitely at least be trying to be heard in the crowd. Town also don't always know who to trust, and I feel that a decent amount of paranoia in Mafia is healthy.
You say you never acted like scum, but both you and Jr. displayed rather scummy behaviors - even Teia was scumreading EDH, at some point. But again, all of this was aside from the point that we would have backed off the second you claimed Bodyguard with no CC. If you want examples of what you did that we thought was scummy, you're welcome to parse our cases on you.
As far as people not trusting me for not being right immediately, sure, I get it - I can't catch all of the scum right away, all the time, forever. I certainly would like to be able to, and I do have a decent success rate of Day 1 game solvings since I started trying to make that a thing. But another thing to consider is that we were working with imperfect information; Ronin was lurking hardcore early on, and I never address lurkers until it feels like there are no other good options to pursue as far as players who have behaved in a more overtly scummy manner, such as Limited had been doing. My personal playstyle is based on removing the inconsistent and scummy players and those who have displayed any sort of cognitive dissonance in their approach to the game while simultaneously looking for reasons to townread people to map out where everyone else is as far as alignment is concerned.
The biggest issue with that is that when pruning the vine, it looks like I'm intentionally causing mislynches, or that I'm not going to achieve accurate results, simply because my process is one that builds on itself. So when I lose my sway on the game, everything topples, because oftentimes that leads to mislynching people that I've cleared and the mafia having more control over the vote.
Not that I should always be trusted by any means - obviously I'm bound to roll scum here and there (though I will say I haven't been scum in about a year, now!) but I almost always become a target of Cyanoia when that happens and I survive for a length of time.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Only to you and the scum. The rest of the town had no definite way of knowing, and no, "but my case was so airtight" doesn't count.
I'm driving myself a little crazy with this, because on one hand, I know exactly what I meant and how, and maybe you three are incapable of taking someone's assessment of your play and separating it from the non-existent subtext of "this means you are an idiot".
This highlights a major case of "it's anyone's fault but mine" that pervades your posts. A lot of the time it feels like you just can't fathom the idea that you might be wrong about something.
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.
"Family was town" was a definite, period. You can not debate the fact that we received a town role PM.
Between the 4 of us, Family was a very fluid organism, both within the QT and in-game; we were transparent with our motives, offered reasoning for our reads, and pushed them accordingly. We did our best to separate ourselves emotionally from the game and appeal only to logic. Because of this, and because we all knew we were town, we felt that it was ludicrous to be scumreading us. You even went so far as to say that you didn't think we were going to flip scum! You're saying that your perception of my perception of myself is what made you disinclined to trust me...but that has nothing to do with our in-game accomplishments. This is a clear example of allowing your distaste for my playstyle to color your actions and justifications for what happened in-game. It had nothing to do with behavior and everything to do with "I don't like the way this guy is acting".
Also, I know I'm not infallible. Hell, in the post before your last one, I admit that my scumhunting process is not designed to lynch only scum. It's like you only read up to the second part you quoted and used it out of context to justify your stance instead of reading my entire post.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
RE: Revisionist/confirmation-bias: At which specific point are you referring to? Because you, PJ, and TS are all personally attacking me (fancy that!) and you've said quite a bit about that.
As far as wordings, is it possible that my tone is simply being misunderstood with the way that I initially phrase things? I feel like we're all punting at different goalposts, here, because you three feel like I'm personally attacking people and of everyone else that's commented on the matter, as well as a few people I won't name but have discussed this privately with, no one else thinks I crossed the line.
There are certain definites in Mafia. Family was town - that was a definite. When I say "think critically" and you say "thinking critically doesn't mean 'agree with Iso'", in the case of a definite, it absolutely does. So when you don't come to the correct conclusion, I have to assume that your worldview on the state of the game needs to be reprocessed, or that you're not comprehending something correctly, or that you missed some information or something. I understand that people are unable to separate themselves from their observations and the lens through which they think, most of the time. But it is inarguable that we were town and that lynching town is not part of the town's win condition. So how am I at fault for questioning your impartiality or deductive reasoning on the matter? I'm not saying, "Hey, you're stupid, you're an idiot." That's absolutely over the line. But saying something to the same effect of, "You really need to reassess where you are with your reads in the game right now," is in no way a personal attack. Saying "Iso ruined the game for everyone" absolutely is. I can forgive TappingStones for his view on this because he's new and might not be familiar with the level of thick-skinnedness that one must adopt when on the Mafia battlefield. But Teia, I really feel like you're allowing some sort of personal distaste for me color your approach to this - which I don't really understand, because I always thought we were on good terms.
As for Puddlejumper, well, I don't really know what to say. I've wanted to play with you (and your alter ego) since I began playing Mafia, as you may recall regarding a PM I sent to you several years ago to the effect of "you should totally get back into Mafia!" Again, I'm sorry you feel like I ruined the game, because that's absolutely not the first impression I want to make on anybody - new player, vet, or what have you - but I am simply incapable of seeing what I did wrong, here. Maybe my posts were worded a little harshly, but my intention was never to make anybody feel personally attacked.
I'm driving myself a little crazy with this, because on one hand, I know exactly what I meant and how, and maybe you three are incapable of taking someone's assessment of your play and separating it from the non-existent subtext of "this means you are an idiot". (And no, that's not meant as a personal attack, it's meant as a possible explanation for the phenomenon we are witnessing, here.) My Mafia persona is very self-aggrandizing and self-assured and probably comes across as downright ********ishly arrogant; but as far as OoG is concerned, my Mafia persona is only a parody of the way people see me in-game, ironically. My constant outward reinforcement of myself is a playstyle choice, because oftentimes, shouting something loudly enough (e.g. "Look at how right I am!") gets it to resonate through people's heads. On the other hand, maybe because my Mafia persona is such a dissociation with who I actually am as a person it has led to me not understanding how anyone can take MafiaIso at face value when I know that's not who I am. I have some more thoughts on this but it's a little incoherent and rambly past a certain point so I'll cut it off there.
I'll acknowledge that I expected to hurt your feelings with what I'm saying, which is a big reason why I didn't start this discussion during the game. But I don't *want* to hurt your feelings. Hurting your feelings is something I'm hoping to get past, in the quest for the real goal; it doesn't accomplish anything for me.
On the other hand, you say "it always seems to be the "old guard" of players that complain about people not blindly accepting "lynch claimed VT theory"" and you say it in the context of credit claiming. What is the goal here, if it isn't to invalidate me as a player? You didn't say "you're wrong about this strategy point and this is why" - the discussion wasn't even about strategy. Instead, you said "I'm right because you're obsolete", because the point you were concerned about was whether or not you could claim the credit.
The difference is that the point I'm trying to make does not depend on you feeling bad. I just want you to stop.
The old guard remark wasn't intended as a slight at you - it was simply an observation that I've seen a similar comment from several of the players who used to be around from the heydays of MTGS Mafia. It has nothing to do with credit - the point I'm trying to make is that Mafia is a very fluid game and that certain expected behaviors evolve and change with time, and my comment was my way of saying, "I recommend you adapt as I feel it will make you a better player." As I said in-game, you're a good player - your vote manipulation on Day 1 was very sneaky and actually took me by surprise, which is why I commended you. But solving the game as town is more difficult than pretending to try to solve the game as scum (IMO) and I have seen many games that would have been lost if the old-fashioned "lynch claimed VTs no matter what" credo was stuck to. I'd love it if you became involved in more games, because it's always refreshing to see different styles and takes on the game. I'd also really appreciate it if you gave a game with me another chance, though I understand if you think that's asking too much.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You can not debate the fact that we received a town role PM.
And none of the other town players had any way of knowing this as a definite fact. What's your point, exactly? That it's only "critical thinking" if someone agrees with you based on information only you know for certain? That's the opposite of critical thinking.
No, that if you had taken all things into consideration to the extent that should have occurred, that you would have arrived at the conclusion that we were town - which, if you ask me, is a pretty townie thought to be having.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So yes, you are in effect just saying "it's only thinking properly critically about the game if you agree with me, and if you disagree then you aren't really thinking critically."
The reason for MVP and LVP for this particular game is because it's a clan contest and MVP gets more points for their clan while LVP gets less. I think...
So yes, you are in effect just saying "it's only thinking properly critically about the game if you agree with me, and if you disagree then you aren't really thinking critically."
I'm done with this line of discussion now.
It has nothing to do with agreeing with me and everything to do with arriving at the realization of a definite.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Is this a credit claiming thing?
Having family dead was the best thing that could happen. He was personally attacking everyone and claiming just about every town play was scum. After he left we immediately eliminated all scum.
Times have changed. Maybe you should, too.
-
@TS: It's been established that I did not personally attack anyone so much as call their play into question. Also, "claimimg just about every town play was scum"? What does that even mean? And what does us leaving the game have to do with eliminating the scum?
We eliminated all the scum after we lynched Crafters on Day 1, too. Was that also the best thing that could have happened?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Okay, do you not see how this is a personal attack? This is exactly the sort of thing that makes me want to avoid you. I can appreciate some good hyperbole in the name of making a point, but the tone and the silly assumptions you're making about what I think and why are offensive to me. I don't care a bit about whether or not you get any credit for your strategy this game. All I've been trying to do is get you to see that ^^this^^ stuff is not okay. You're ruining the game for everyone.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
But your point is taken about the LVP.
I only really consider LVP for things that go beyond the scope of poor play and into actively sabotaging the game (hence the Flamingo vote for that) or who are just such VIs that there's really no excuse. Or, like, vigs who hit nothing but town multiple times. Things that go well and clearly beyond just "not playing well."
Also Iso: Tone is another serious aspect to consider. Like, when I pointed out your results don't fit your highly revisionist and confirmation-bias prone self-assessment, you immediately shifted into a demanding, almost accusatory tone (hence why I didn't bother pursing that, because it obviously got under your skin to the point of agitating you and that wasn't where I was trying to go with that). Here you're making another confrontational post with the "times have changed, you should too" thing and just plain not seeing how that delivery is any different from your subsequent rewording. You boast about your Mafia ability, so you ought to be able to tell the different connotations that stem from wording things in different ways. Apply that skill to yourself and you'll get less complaints about ruining games for people. Hell, I actively went with a deliberately trollish playstyle and yet you're the one people are saying they want to avoid and how you dying was the best thing that happened. That should tell you something.
As far as wordings, is it possible that my tone is simply being misunderstood with the way that I initially phrase things? I feel like we're all punting at different goalposts, here, because you three feel like I'm personally attacking people and of everyone else that's commented on the matter, as well as a few people I won't name but have discussed this privately with, no one else thinks I crossed the line.
There are certain definites in Mafia. Family was town - that was a definite. When I say "think critically" and you say "thinking critically doesn't mean 'agree with Iso'", in the case of a definite, it absolutely does. So when you don't come to the correct conclusion, I have to assume that your worldview on the state of the game needs to be reprocessed, or that you're not comprehending something correctly, or that you missed some information or something. I understand that people are unable to separate themselves from their observations and the lens through which they think, most of the time. But it is inarguable that we were town and that lynching town is not part of the town's win condition. So how am I at fault for questioning your impartiality or deductive reasoning on the matter? I'm not saying, "Hey, you're stupid, you're an idiot." That's absolutely over the line. But saying something to the same effect of, "You really need to reassess where you are with your reads in the game right now," is in no way a personal attack. Saying "Iso ruined the game for everyone" absolutely is. I can forgive TappingStones for his view on this because he's new and might not be familiar with the level of thick-skinnedness that one must adopt when on the Mafia battlefield. But Teia, I really feel like you're allowing some sort of personal distaste for me color your approach to this - which I don't really understand, because I always thought we were on good terms.
As for Puddlejumper, well, I don't really know what to say. I've wanted to play with you (and your alter ego) since I began playing Mafia, as you may recall regarding a PM I sent to you several years ago to the effect of "you should totally get back into Mafia!" Again, I'm sorry you feel like I ruined the game, because that's absolutely not the first impression I want to make on anybody - new player, vet, or what have you - but I am simply incapable of seeing what I did wrong, here. Maybe my posts were worded a little harshly, but my intention was never to make anybody feel personally attacked.
I'm driving myself a little crazy with this, because on one hand, I know exactly what I meant and how, and maybe you three are incapable of taking someone's assessment of your play and separating it from the non-existent subtext of "this means you are an idiot". (And no, that's not meant as a personal attack, it's meant as a possible explanation for the phenomenon we are witnessing, here.) My Mafia persona is very self-aggrandizing and self-assured and probably comes across as downright ********ishly arrogant; but as far as OoG is concerned, my Mafia persona is only a parody of the way people see me in-game, ironically. My constant outward reinforcement of myself is a playstyle choice, because oftentimes, shouting something loudly enough (e.g. "Look at how right I am!") gets it to resonate through people's heads. On the other hand, maybe because my Mafia persona is such a dissociation with who I actually am as a person it has led to me not understanding how anyone can take MafiaIso at face value when I know that's not who I am. I have some more thoughts on this but it's a little incoherent and rambly past a certain point so I'll cut it off there.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Could you provide the rock solid evidence on the "scum buddies" argument? Knowing that I was Town (obviously) and seeing that you had been 0-2 in your "easy game" choices I had a hard time buying the limited argument. You may have even had a good argument but it was wrapped up in being from my perspective (0-3) on calling scum, later limited would be revealed scum so I'll give you that one. But at the time you were clearly (0-3) on your reads and telling us we were stupid for not following you. You told Teia she was voting with the "scum buddies" when in fact I was not scum at all, nor ever acted as such. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DIDN"T TRUST YOU or FELT YOU WERE FULL OF IT.
Your post game analysis has been useful to me as a new player but IN GAME you were super hard to work with...which is not very town like (IMO).
You say you never acted like scum, but both you and Jr. displayed rather scummy behaviors - even Teia was scumreading EDH, at some point. But again, all of this was aside from the point that we would have backed off the second you claimed Bodyguard with no CC. If you want examples of what you did that we thought was scummy, you're welcome to parse our cases on you.
As far as people not trusting me for not being right immediately, sure, I get it - I can't catch all of the scum right away, all the time, forever. I certainly would like to be able to, and I do have a decent success rate of Day 1 game solvings since I started trying to make that a thing. But another thing to consider is that we were working with imperfect information; Ronin was lurking hardcore early on, and I never address lurkers until it feels like there are no other good options to pursue as far as players who have behaved in a more overtly scummy manner, such as Limited had been doing. My personal playstyle is based on removing the inconsistent and scummy players and those who have displayed any sort of cognitive dissonance in their approach to the game while simultaneously looking for reasons to townread people to map out where everyone else is as far as alignment is concerned.
The biggest issue with that is that when pruning the vine, it looks like I'm intentionally causing mislynches, or that I'm not going to achieve accurate results, simply because my process is one that builds on itself. So when I lose my sway on the game, everything topples, because oftentimes that leads to mislynching people that I've cleared and the mafia having more control over the vote.
Not that I should always be trusted by any means - obviously I'm bound to roll scum here and there (though I will say I haven't been scum in about a year, now!) but I almost always become a target of Cyanoia when that happens and I survive for a length of time.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Only to you and the scum. The rest of the town had no definite way of knowing, and no, "but my case was so airtight" doesn't count.
This highlights a major case of "it's anyone's fault but mine" that pervades your posts. A lot of the time it feels like you just can't fathom the idea that you might be wrong about something.
"Family was town" was a definite, period. You can not debate the fact that we received a town role PM.
Between the 4 of us, Family was a very fluid organism, both within the QT and in-game; we were transparent with our motives, offered reasoning for our reads, and pushed them accordingly. We did our best to separate ourselves emotionally from the game and appeal only to logic. Because of this, and because we all knew we were town, we felt that it was ludicrous to be scumreading us. You even went so far as to say that you didn't think we were going to flip scum! You're saying that your perception of my perception of myself is what made you disinclined to trust me...but that has nothing to do with our in-game accomplishments. This is a clear example of allowing your distaste for my playstyle to color your actions and justifications for what happened in-game. It had nothing to do with behavior and everything to do with "I don't like the way this guy is acting".
Also, I know I'm not infallible. Hell, in the post before your last one, I admit that my scumhunting process is not designed to lynch only scum. It's like you only read up to the second part you quoted and used it out of context to justify your stance instead of reading my entire post.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll acknowledge that I expected to hurt your feelings with what I'm saying, which is a big reason why I didn't start this discussion during the game. But I don't *want* to hurt your feelings. Hurting your feelings is something I'm hoping to get past, in the quest for the real goal; it doesn't accomplish anything for me.
On the other hand, you say "it always seems to be the "old guard" of players that complain about people not blindly accepting "lynch claimed VT theory"" and you say it in the context of credit claiming. What is the goal here, if it isn't to invalidate me as a player? You didn't say "you're wrong about this strategy point and this is why" - the discussion wasn't even about strategy. Instead, you said "I'm right because you're obsolete", because the point you were concerned about was whether or not you could claim the credit.
The difference is that the point I'm trying to make does not depend on you feeling bad. I just want you to stop.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And none of the other town players had any way of knowing this as a definite fact. What's your point, exactly? That it's only "critical thinking" if someone agrees with you based on information only you know for certain? That's the opposite of critical thinking.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm done with this line of discussion now.
The reason for MVP and LVP for this particular game is because it's a clan contest and MVP gets more points for their clan while LVP gets less. I think...
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It has nothing to do with agreeing with me and everything to do with arriving at the realization of a definite.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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