Great another vote on Zio that is nonsense this is amazing.
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Also I admit I find it a bit odd that something 'very subtle' can be 'forced.'
Also for those following along WITH THE HOME GAME I didn't even really mean to be inclusive in that statement, that's just how I phrase things. So subtle even I didn't think about it much, I was just using your opinion of it as the constant rather than how I viewed it. Subtly forced, apparently. That's a really weird thing to say. Kind of like how people like to say I distance myself when I don't.
I don't like you right now Killjoy. I mean I think you are scum, I am sure you're a wonderful person.
Hm. I suppose you're right about the fact that really none of it is necessary. My point though, is that when one reads that post, one reads that towns suck at finding scum D1, then immediately connect the 'we' in the second half to 'towns', leading people to think tha you are part of the town (not by behavior, but by verbiage, which is my problem). I think you a player capable of creative and deceptive wordplay. And I believe that's what this is.
Now, regarding that whole 'KJ said my townies, now he's calling me out on it'... What you and I did is very different. I intentionally hyperbolized my RVS post. I wasn't trying to hide the fact that I was calling myself townie. My intention for said post was to make one think I was obviously not being serious, whereas the intention of yours is more deceptive, IMO.
If we end up not lynching Antny for some reason, I am totally on board with a Killjoy lynch for that wall post in #579. Particularly the Godot and Chris stuff. The TCM interaction is just weird. This isn't the townKilljoy I'm used to.
If we end up not lynching Antny for some reason, I am totally on board with a Killjoy lynch for that wall post in #579. Particularly the Godot and Chris stuff. The TCM interaction is just weird. This isn't the townKilljoy I'm used to.
I don't like this post. "Just weird", "isn't the X I'm used to" are weaker statements of, and Seppel has been honeybadgering all game. The tone shift doesn't make sense.
Antny is basically spamming the thread. There's no way for this approach to be useful for town, and I think he's just trying too hard to be seen making effort. I am willing to vote him. However, I think the Zionite wagon is dissolving too rapidly and I want everyone to take another look at that. I'm also going to review the reasons for people dropping off the wagon.
++town for Kami.This is a town post. Head appears in the right place.
Also should a member of town watch what they say? What a weird thought by you.
Can you quote the part where I said or implied this? Cuz I'm pretty sure I didn't.
@Everyone Where did anyone propose a massclaim? I'm absolutely against it , FTR.
Quote from Zionite »
Don't like this post. Refuses to scum hunt his own questions and straps on his tunneling gear.
How is tunneling nontown? Also I never said I wouldn't look for the answers, I said I wouldn't look for them THEN. I had no time then. I barely have time now.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@hawk and kami: I'm really sick of this. I thought I had explained my actions: I made what I thought was an RVS post, but the wording wasn't very good and I had to clarify. It feels like you're just going "HURR DURR NOTHING GOIN ON TIME TO RUN UP TEH SNURFY WAGON AGIN".
Something pings my scumdar about hunt, it feels like he's buddying every chance he gets.
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The first part of your post, Killjoy. Think about your argument for a moment from the perspective of a town Chris. town Chris is part of town, so town Chris says he is part of town when he begins the game because town Chris is in fact part of town. My post can only be viewed as deception after the fact. You cannot rightly build a scum case on that being deceptive because it presumes I am being deceptive because I am scum but it isn't if I am town. Circular reasoning, hello.
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@hawk and kami: I'm really sick of this. I thought I had explained my actions: I made what I thought was an RVS post, but the wording wasn't very good and I had to clarify. It feels like you're just going "HURR DURR NOTHING GOIN ON TIME TO RUN UP TEH SNURFY WAGON AGIN".
Something pings my scumdar about hunt, it feels like he's buddying every chance he gets.
The same way that when you get a few votes on you, you immediately try to pass them back off to me?
I wouldn't say EVERY chance I get, that is a bit excessive. What posts were you referring to? There are certainly instances of me being polite that can be viewed as buddying.
Should the massclaim go through, I want Archon, Bur, Godot, and Snurfy to claim before me!
This doesn't look promising Seppel. Not many have agreed, and two that have are Zio and I, and we already claimed so it doesn't count for anything.
Is it safe to assume you think those four are scum? Why do they need to go before you?
What do you mean by "This doesn't look promising Seppel."? He tends to push massclaims D1 all the time, this is null from him in my books.
But, no. I'm against the massclaim D1. Even though this is not Iso game, still.
Also, more votes on Zio. Seriously.
Or alternatively, explain to me why Zio is not mafia (since I'm not seeing Zio being town) and refute these points:
- How he seems to be changing wagons like underwear and not even questioning anything. He just seems to do total 180 on Hunt based on a single post from Seppel.
- Also, his reaction to Hunt's claim ("maybe it was an item"). If Zio were to be a newbie, then that push wouldn't be weird, but I'm pretty sure Zio is not one.
Vote Zionite.
Have you ever pursued someone as your main lynch target and that person flipped scum? Serious question.
If we end up not lynching Antny for some reason, I am totally on board with a Killjoy lynch for that wall post in #579. Particularly the Godot and Chris stuff. The TCM interaction is just weird. This isn't the townKilljoy I'm used to.
If we end up not lynching Antny for some reason, I am totally on board with a Killjoy lynch for that wall post in #579. Particularly the Godot and Chris stuff. The TCM interaction is just weird. This isn't the townKilljoy I'm used to.
I don't like this post. "Just weird", "isn't the X I'm used to" are weaker statements of, and Seppel has been honeybadgering all game. The tone shift doesn't make sense.
Antny is basically spamming the thread. There's no way for this approach to be useful for town, and I think he's just trying too hard to be seen making effort. I am willing to vote him. However, I think the Zionite wagon is dissolving too rapidly and I want everyone to take another look at that. I'm also going to review the reasons for people dropping off the wagon.
++town for Kami.This is a town post. Head appears in the right place.
WHOA GR8 PLAYS M8
YOU QUOTED MY INITIAL RESPONSE AND KAMI'S FOLLOWUP QUERY BUT FAILED TO QUOTE MY RESPONSE TO KAMI IN #628 WHICH LITERALLY ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION
ALSO IT WAS IN ALLCAPS SO IT'S NOT LIKE YOU COULD'VE MISSED IT
LET'S SEE TWO POSSIBILITIES:
Quote from Zionite »
OH SEPPEL'S QUOTING THE POST I'M INTERESTED IN
I'M A GOOD TOWNIE SO I CARE ABOUT WHAT HIS ANSWER IS
I don't have a problem with claiming my own role, but I don't think it's beneficial for everybody claim their role right now. It just gives the mafia too much information.
You know how No Lynching is a conversation starter because it seems pro-town but really isn't? D1 mass claiming is much the opposite: it seems like a big disadvantage for the town, but really it's usually amazing. Mafia typically need to lie about at least some aspects of their role, and they're rarely sure what it's safe to lie about. And this is really the perfect time for it to happen: we have lots of unconfirmed reads which make it statistically likely for use to be able to get some of the scum to claim early on (which is ideal), but little other information to act on which would help us conclusively identify scum today. It's also a way to get lurkers to be useful, since townies can pop in, claim their role, and pop out without having to read the thread much, while scum have to pore over everything and hope they can figure out a role to claim that won't get them autolynched.
You know how No Lynching is a conversation starter because it seems pro-town but really isn't? D1 mass claiming is much the opposite: it seems like a big disadvantage for the town, but really it's usually amazing. Mafia typically need to lie about at least some aspects of their role, and they're rarely sure what it's safe to lie about. And this is really the perfect time for it to happen: we have lots of unconfirmed reads which make it statistically likely for use to be able to get some of the scum to claim early on (which is ideal), but little other information to act on which would help us conclusively identify scum today. It's also a way to get lurkers to be useful, since townies can pop in, claim their role, and pop out without having to read the thread much, while scum have to pore over everything and hope they can figure out a role to claim that won't get them autolynched.
Here's a sample...
Miller
Bus Driver
Roleblocker
Rolecop
JOAT-(Gunsmith/Hider/Rolecop)
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Motivator
Gunsmith
Vigilante
Vanilla Townie
Commuter
Tracker
Neighborizor
Vanilla Townie
Doctor
Vanilla Townie
Jailkeeper
That's a hypothetical of 18 roles for the 18 players in this game. Which of those roles are the fake-claims? Now the scum know which of the PR's to shoot or not shoot. I'm glad I could highlight the silliness of mass claiming day one.
He's just illistrating why mass claims are dumb. Scum know who's lying, sothey freely kill PRs. Town need to work out who's lying and who isn't, which can possibly end in mislynches.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
When you saw the words "Here's a sample" and "that's a hypothetical" in post 712, what went through your mind? What was the thought process you underwent that caused you to make post 713?
You know how No Lynching is a conversation starter because it seems pro-town but really isn't? D1 mass claiming is much the opposite: it seems like a big disadvantage for the town, but really it's usually amazing. Mafia typically need to lie about at least some aspects of their role, and they're rarely sure what it's safe to lie about. And this is really the perfect time for it to happen: we have lots of unconfirmed reads which make it statistically likely for use to be able to get some of the scum to claim early on (which is ideal), but little other information to act on which would help us conclusively identify scum today. It's also a way to get lurkers to be useful, since townies can pop in, claim their role, and pop out without having to read the thread much, while scum have to pore over everything and hope they can figure out a role to claim that won't get them autolynched.
Here's a sample...
Miller
Bus Driver
Roleblocker
Rolecop
JOAT-(Gunsmith/Hider/Rolecop)
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Motivator
Gunsmith
Vigilante
Vanilla Townie
Commuter
Tracker
Neighborizor
Vanilla Townie
Doctor
Vanilla Townie
Jailkeeper
That's a hypothetical of 18 roles for the 18 players in this game. Which of those roles are the fake-claims? Now the scum know which of the PR's to shoot or not shoot. I'm glad I could highlight the silliness of mass claiming day one.
Rolecop +> Miller
Vigilante +> Gunsmith
v
Commuter +> JOAT-(Gunsmith/Hider/Rolecop)
Mafiate #3: [Vig shoots commuter. Commuter doesn't commute. If commuter not dead and roleblocker's story isn't coordinated with one of the motivator's targets (or even the motivator), lynch the commuter. If commuter isn't mafia, lynch the Gunsmith.]
Mafiate #4: [Either the roleblocker or the Bus Driver. It should be apparent now.]
Mafiate #5: [Vanilla townie.]
If there's a Mafiate #6: [Likely a vanilla townie.]
If Motivator turns out to be mafia, then the Tracker, Doc, Jailer, and Neighborizor are still on the table, but by the time you get to Mafiate #3, those four roles should mostly be dead or have proven themselves town by finding mafia. It's likely that one of them would be busing for towncred (even though it's worthless in this setup). If that happens, behavior analysis will show who's mafia. If the Rolecop is somehow town, he can start picking through the vanilla townies alongside behavior analysis.
I haven't liked many of snurfy's posts, but 1) he posts like lynchbait, and 2) waiting on him until after Zionite goes down will give us some good info about his alignment. I'd much rather wait to do this wagon until another day.
Recent events (and lack thereof) have me liking the massclaim plan. I will be happy to start that off with my claim if, say, five other people are willing to help me get the ball rolling. Let me know.
@SirChris: If you think my vote is nonsense, please do tell me, why Zio is town in your opinion.
Should the massclaim go through, I want Archon, Bur, Godot, and Snurfy to claim before me!
This doesn't look promising Seppel. Not many have agreed, and two that have are Zio and I, and we already claimed so it doesn't count for anything.
Is it safe to assume you think those four are scum? Why do they need to go before you?
What do you mean by "This doesn't look promising Seppel."? He tends to push massclaims D1 all the time, this is null from him in my books.
But, no. I'm against the massclaim D1. Even though this is not Iso game, still.
Also, more votes on Zio. Seriously.
Or alternatively, explain to me why Zio is not mafia (since I'm not seeing Zio being town) and refute these points:
- How he seems to be changing wagons like underwear and not even questioning anything. He just seems to do total 180 on Hunt based on a single post from Seppel.
- Also, his reaction to Hunt's claim ("maybe it was an item"). If Zio were to be a newbie, then that push wouldn't be weird, but I'm pretty sure Zio is not one.
Vote Zionite.
Have you ever pursued someone as your main lynch target and that person flipped scum? Serious question.
You and DCIII in Vagrant Story, for example. Serious answer.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
You know how No Lynching is a conversation starter because it seems pro-town but really isn't? D1 mass claiming is much the opposite: it seems like a big disadvantage for the town, but really it's usually amazing. Mafia typically need to lie about at least some aspects of their role, and they're rarely sure what it's safe to lie about. And this is really the perfect time for it to happen: we have lots of unconfirmed reads which make it statistically likely for use to be able to get some of the scum to claim early on (which is ideal), but little other information to act on which would help us conclusively identify scum today. It's also a way to get lurkers to be useful, since townies can pop in, claim their role, and pop out without having to read the thread much, while scum have to pore over everything and hope they can figure out a role to claim that won't get them autolynched.
Here's a sample...
Miller
Bus Driver
Roleblocker
Rolecop
JOAT-(Gunsmith/Hider/Rolecop)
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Motivator
Gunsmith
Vigilante
Vanilla Townie
Commuter
Tracker
Neighborizor
Vanilla Townie
Doctor
Vanilla Townie
Jailkeeper
That's a hypothetical of 18 roles for the 18 players in this game. Which of those roles are the fake-claims? Now the scum know which of the PR's to shoot or not shoot. I'm glad I could highlight the silliness of mass claiming day one.
Aside from the fact that there's a *ton* of valuable information there to work with that would nearly guarantee a town vic, a situation like this would basically be the worst-case scenario. More likely, at least one scum would be forced to claim early and try to claim something that a townie could counterclaim. Or they'd be forced to expose some information that one town role or another would be able to use to prove them scum.
Mafiate #3: [Vig shoots commuter. Commuter doesn't commute. If commuter not dead and roleblocker's story isn't coordinated with one of the motivator's targets (or even the motivator), lynch the commuter. If commuter isn't mafia, lynch the Gunsmith.]
And if it turns out all four of the JOAT, Rolecop, Commuter and Gunsmith were town, we lose.
Stop trying to make D1 massclaim happen. It isn't going to happen.
The deadline is 3/22/15 at 11:59 PM EST. (For future reference, each deadline will reflect Eastern Standard Time--in case I forget to include that, like my last post.)
Hunger is V/LA until March 17th
I haven't had the time yet, but I will prod check tomorrow afternoon/night.
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"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Ha-has Sepi not moved their vote off of me since the very start of the game? That seems... very subdued for Sepi.
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Stop trying to make D1 massclaim happen. It isn't going to happen.
PJ, explain what you mean by "lynchbait".
By lynchbait I mean that snurfy posts like he doesn't understand things. He says things that it makes no sense for scum *or* town to say, so it's very easy to jump on him for saying suspicious things and get him lynched even though the case for him being scum isn't actually any stronger than the case for him being town. That's not to say that I think he's town, but 1) the case against Zionite actually makes for a pretty good lynch, and 2) snurfy and Zionite have interacted enough that Zionite's alignment will make it easier to read snurfy.
As for the massclaim, with the deadline in less than a week, I'd have thought people would be more for it. We have too many lurkers to develop a stronger case than the one on Zio and get them lynched in the time we have left without a major game changer, and Zio is apparently a non-starter (because he's scum and his 'mates don't want to lynch him). Massclaiming is a pro-towm move and a good option for kickstarting a day that is rapidly moving towards No Lynching.
I think we need to come together and form a plan. The deadline is approaching and we are no closer to a consensus than we were during RVS, despite the fact we somehow have 29 pages of content to analyze. If we aren't going down the massclaim route, perhaps we could all put up our T/S lists in order to find overlap for the lynch. If we wasted a month of real time only to No Lynch like TCM suggested we do on the first page, I will most likely laugh and cry, though it would be fitting for how this game has gone. If people have other ideas, I would love to hear them. I actually agree with Puddle that we have a lot of lurking that contributed to the position we are now in. For those of us that are active, let's see if we can't figure out the best course of action.
Mostly language tells. How you say specific things, not what you say. It's weaker evidence and hard to convince others but still relevant to my outlook.
Mafiate #3: [Vig shoots commuter. Commuter doesn't commute. If commuter not dead and roleblocker's story isn't coordinated with one of the motivator's targets (or even the motivator), lynch the commuter. If commuter isn't mafia, lynch the Gunsmith.]
And if it turns out all four of the JOAT, Rolecop, Commuter and Gunsmith were town, we lose.
Except that's literally impossible. At least one of the JOAT & Commuter are confirmed mafia.
At least one of the Rolecop & Miller are confirmed mafia too.
Mafiate #3: [Vig shoots commuter. Commuter doesn't commute. If commuter not dead and roleblocker's story isn't coordinated with one of the motivator's targets (or even the motivator), lynch the commuter. If commuter isn't mafia, lynch the Gunsmith.]
And if it turns out all four of the JOAT, Rolecop, Commuter and Gunsmith were town, we lose.
Except that's literally impossible. At least one of the JOAT & Commuter are confirmed mafia.
At least one of the Rolecop & Miller are confirmed mafia too.
Why? Is this a balance thing? Do you think all Mafia hosts and reviewers share your ideas on balance?
It isn't a balance thing. The Rolecop can prove the Miller a liar, or vice versa, and the same is true for the JOAT/Commuter combo. In the case of the latter, we don't even have to waste a lynch half the time. That's just the way the roles work.
Mafiate #3: [Vig shoots commuter. Commuter doesn't commute. If commuter not dead and roleblocker's story isn't coordinated with one of the motivator's targets (or even the motivator), lynch the commuter. If commuter isn't mafia, lynch the Gunsmith.]
And if it turns out all four of the JOAT, Rolecop, Commuter and Gunsmith were town, we lose.
Except that's literally impossible. At least one of the JOAT & Commuter are confirmed mafia.
At least one of the Rolecop & Miller are confirmed mafia too.
Why? Is this a balance thing? Do you think all Mafia hosts and reviewers share your ideas on balance?
JOAT claimed "hider" which is the same effect as "commuter," therefore one is lying. (Any mod that uses two different terms for the same effect should deserve for his game to go down in flames.) Normally I'd say the commuter is the liar because of how frequently it's used as a mafia falseclaim on MTGS (cough cough if you're a commuter you should claim now if you ever want me to believe you), but considering the presence of a motivator, the JOAT's abilities are soooo scum-sided, and the JOAT's GS ability is likely a Fabricator. It's possible they're both scum!
From there, everything starts to go downhill -- the Miller has no info roles claimed, so either there's a cop hiding (in which case he should claim correctly to save that dude's face) or it's a bastard setup. Ergo, the rolecop should check the miller. We have a night to do so, because we're lynching the JOAT. This forces the rolecop to either tell the truth or lie, which is useful for finding out if they're both scum.
At that point, the vig has had some prime targets to shoot, and if he's ever roleblocked or driven, the roleblocker/driver is lynched.
In other words, the massclaim gave the town a massive advantage. And behavioral analysis will weed out any straggling scum.
Mafiate #3: [Vig shoots commuter. Commuter doesn't commute. If commuter not dead and roleblocker's story isn't coordinated with one of the motivator's targets (or even the motivator), lynch the commuter. If commuter isn't mafia, lynch the Gunsmith.]
And if it turns out all four of the JOAT, Rolecop, Commuter and Gunsmith were town, we lose.
Except that's literally impossible. At least one of the JOAT & Commuter are confirmed mafia.
At least one of the Rolecop & Miller are confirmed mafia too.
Why? Is this a balance thing? Do you think all Mafia hosts and reviewers share your ideas on balance?
JOAT claimed "hider" which is the same effect as "commuter," therefore one is lying. (Any mod that uses two different terms for the same effect should deserve for his game to go down in flames.)
So, yes, you think it's a balance thing. I'm not willing to bet the game on hoping that the mod has the same concept of balance as you do.
So, yes, you think it's a balance thing. I'm not willing to bet the game on hoping that the mod has the same concept of balance as you do.
First of all, that's a stupid argument because there's a whole pile of abilities going on and there's no way for the scum to shut down every useful piece of info. The situation where you massclaim with that much power in the town (and we know there's actually more than in this example) does not lend itself to the town mislynching very much, especially as people start dying. Even if, for example, the JOAT really were town, Day 2 would provide us with such a huge quantity of information that we would probably be physically unable to mislynch again.
Second of all, that's a stupid argument because "concept of balance" isn't as fluid as you seem to think. There are certain fundamentals to game design that can't be messed with, and first among those is "You can't design a game to only be winnable if the players assume the mod is a liar." Sticking a miller in a game without any way of telling that there's a miller in the game violates the single most important tenet of writing a mafia game.
Third of all, that's a stupid argument because ignores the actual fact that the example setup is obviously not our setup. That example was specifically given to be tough on the town - the fact that it actually isn't that tough should only highlight that most powered setups are pretty darn easy to crack.
Fourth of all, that's a stupid argument because it assumes that we're somehow going to hit a magical scenario where none of the scum are forced into a counterclaim scenario by having to claim early, which is just not very likely, and even if it does happen, is going to be associated with such a large amount of hedging that the scum aren't going to be able to work within their roles nearly as freely as the example suggests.
I'm gonna stop reading this thread for a day, and when I come back maybe we discuss the actual game rather than fictional setups.
Because for all the theory discussion in the world, I'm not going to take part in a massclaim toDay.
What's stopping you from Discussing whatever's important to you now while ignoring what's not relevant to you? It's not like there has beeN several discussions going on at he same time earlier. And you've pretty much been lurking all game anyway so I don't see how this theory discussion is changing things for you. It's like you're using that as an excuse.
I'm pretty down with lynching Antny based on this post alone, at this point. Some useless lurker complaining about the only definitely pro-town plan we've talked about all day while adding exactly zero worthwhile content is exactly the sort of mindset I'd expect from a scum trying to minimize his exposure to examination.
Unvote, Vote Antny*
And seriously, guys, we should *not* be okay with No Lynching here. Anyone who doesn't have a wagon to be on needs to get one. If you don't want to talk about mass claiming, then state your case, refresh your vote, and stop being a pointless waste of space.
*Still down with lynching Zio, though, if we can get enough votes.
OK, I'm gonna hop on the antny wagon here because we really need to get a lynch off before deadline, and Zionite is looking more and more town. Unvote, Vote Antny223
I may ISO him later and see what I can see.
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A mirror, a shield, a promise, a great distance, and a kind word-- five ways to avoid harm.
So, yes, you think it's a balance thing. I'm not willing to bet the game on hoping that the mod has the same concept of balance as you do.
First of all, that's a stupid argument because there's a whole pile of abilities going on and there's no way for the scum to shut down every useful piece of info. The situation where you massclaim with that much power in the town (and we know there's actually more than in this example) does not lend itself to the town mislynching very much, especially as people start dying. Even if, for example, the JOAT really were town, Day 2 would provide us with such a huge quantity of information that we would probably be physically unable to mislynch again.
Second of all, that's a stupid argument because "concept of balance" isn't as fluid as you seem to think. There are certain fundamentals to game design that can't be messed with, and first among those is "You can't design a game to only be winnable if the players assume the mod is a liar." Sticking a miller in a game without any way of telling that there's a miller in the game violates the single most important tenet of writing a mafia game.
Third of all, that's a stupid argument because ignores the actual fact that the example setup is obviously not our setup. That example was specifically given to be tough on the town - the fact that it actually isn't that tough should only highlight that most powered setups are pretty darn easy to crack.
Fourth of all, that's a stupid argument because it assumes that we're somehow going to hit a magical scenario where none of the scum are forced into a counterclaim scenario by having to claim early, which is just not very likely, and even if it does happen, is going to be associated with such a large amount of hedging that the scum aren't going to be able to work within their roles nearly as freely as the example suggests.
Why the hostility?
Sure, there are some specific aspects of design that are usually fixed, but those were actually already broken by the hypothetical scenario if everyone is telling the truth - there's a miller with no cop. But most aspects of design aren't that fixed.
It's easy to construct a plan and say "this should work!" but if your preconceptions don't match the mod's preconceptions, you lose. Say the mod decided to put in two Docs. You decide "Oh there can't be two docs", call it a "counterclaim scenario", lynch one, flips town, decide it must be the other one, lynch that one - now you've wasted two lynches and both protective roles.
OK, I'm gonna hop on the antny wagon here because we really need to get a lynch off before deadline, and Zionite is looking more and more town. Unvote, Vote Antny223
I may ISO him later and see what I can see.
lulZ. The aNt wagon just turned to ***** with that vote and ZIONITE has most definitely not been looking more town.
unvote:Huntzilla vote:zionite
Everyone remember, it's plurality voting so while PJ's vote isn't gross, snurfy's most definitely is.
OK, I'm gonna hop on the antny wagon here because we really need to get a lynch off before deadline, and Zionite is looking more and more town. Unvote, Vote Antny223
I may ISO him later and see what I can see.
Incidentally, this post is exacly the sort of thing I mean by lynchbait. No one, scum or town, should ever make a post like this. I don't even understand what could possibly be going through his head to make this kind of post, from any mindset.
Sure, there are some specific aspects of design that are usually fixed, but those were actually already broken by the hypothetical scenario if everyone is telling the truth - there's a miller with no cop. But most aspects of design aren't that fixed.
It's easy to construct a plan and say "this should work!" but if your preconceptions don't match the mod's preconceptions, you lose. Say the mod decided to put in two Docs. You decide "Oh there can't be two docs", call it a "counterclaim scenario", lynch one, flips town, decide it must be the other one, lynch that one - now you've wasted two lynches and both protective roles.
Yeah, except that would never happen. Say there were two docs and we called it a counterclaim scenario, and we lynched one and he flipped town. Guess what would happen? The other one would get power-rolled somehow. Vigged or investigated or whatever else, and probably roleblocked, too. Zero chance of that person using up a second uncertain lynch. And that's in the worst case scenario, remember: 99% of the time, you'll have caught a scum in one lynch (+potentially some number of night actions) at the cost of the doc, which 100% worth it.
Yes, it's true that lynching based on claims can have drawbacks, but guess what? So can lynching based on behavior. No strategy is ever going to be 100%, or the game would be solved and boring. All we can do is play the percentages, and those are at their best when you combine behavioral analysis *with* role-based analysis.
I'm gonna stop reading this thread for a day, and when I come back maybe we discuss the actual game rather than fictional setups.
Because for all the theory discussion in the world, I'm not going to take part in a massclaim toDay.
I'm at a similar place. All the massclaim theory discussion is doing is letting people appear to be active and distract people from actually scumhunting when we are approaching a deadline.
I am not against a massclaim, but I seriously doubt everyone is on board. And we do not have the time to convince them otherwise.
What's stopping you from Discussing whatever's important to you now while ignoring what's not relevant to you? It's not like there has beeN several discussions going on at he same time earlier. And you've pretty much been lurking all game anyway so I don't see how this theory discussion is changing things for you. It's like you're using that as an excuse.
It's not that I couldn't ignore it Imab, or that it is "just another discussion." It is the fact that we are running out of time and we need to be coming to a vote consensus, and this is allowing people to distract the town. The whole discussion and filling the thread with quotes walls of FICTIONAL SCENARIOS is actually anti-town.
I'm pretty down with lynching Antny based on this post alone, at this point. Some useless lurker complaining about the only definitely pro-town plan we've talked about all day while adding exactly zero worthwhile content is exactly the sort of mindset I'd expect from a scum trying to minimize his exposure to examination.
Unvote, Vote Antny*
And seriously, guys, we should *not* be okay with No Lynching here. Anyone who doesn't have a wagon to be on needs to get one. If you don't want to talk about mass claiming, then state your case, refresh your vote, and stop being a pointless waste of space.
*Still down with lynching Zio, though, if we can get enough votes.
I agree with your sentiment, that a No Lynch is not acceptable here. We need to pick some wagons and stick to them.
That being said....
OK, I'm gonna hop on the antny wagon here because we really need to get a lynch off before deadline, and Zionite is looking more and more town. Unvote, Vote Antny223
I may ISO him later and see what I can see.
This post is scummy as it gets. Opportunistic and gross. Though I do concur with Zionite looking more townie lately. Albeit, quiet.
lulZ. The aNt wagon just turned to ***** with that vote and ZIONITE has most definitely not been looking more town.
unvote:Huntzilla vote:zionite
Everyone remember, it's plurality voting so while PJ's vote isn't gross, snurfy's most definitely is.
And this is what makes Imab super townie. Exactly what I was thinking on Snurfy. Not exactly what I was thinking on Zionite, but we have already had that discussion.
OK, I'm gonna hop on the antny wagon here because we really need to get a lynch off before deadline, and Zionite is looking more and more town. Unvote, Vote Antny223
I may ISO him later and see what I can see.
lulZ. The aNt wagon just turned to ***** with that vote and ZIONITE has most definitely not been looking more town.
unvote:Huntzilla vote:zionite
Everyone remember, it's plurality voting so while PJ's vote isn't gross, snurfy's most definitely is.
I haven't seen a case from you so I can only assume this is the OMGUS vote that makes you even more scum.
Ha-has Sepi not moved their vote off of me since the very start of the game? That seems... very subdued for Sepi.
Apparently i still am... Honestly at this point i still feel your play style is too divergent from the only other game i have to personally draw from, i find it odd that you say this is actually "too subdued" for me, what basis do you have for such a statement?
That being said, i have not actually being able to get invested in this game as much as i wanted, so i have actually not managed to re-read as much as i wanted.
I am actually ok with the massclaim, Seppel gave sound reasoning for it and I personally have no downside claiming, well at least i think i dont...
@Hans: I am not seeing any mail notice on my tab... apologies for the lack of activity
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I find you to have an energetic air about you usually. Bouncing from vote to vote, diving in. It took me by surprise you sat on your vote for so long. As for me being different, I let my whims be my guide. Part of having no fear as town is not being afraid to do things differently. It is my philosophy to be as me as possible. I suspect a scum sepibwouldmt be satisfied with such a weak vote on a town Chris though, so I am ok with you. Be more engaged, yo.
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I honestly dont think i bounce votes around that much, i mean i can be a bit shifty but i wouldn't qualify myself as "bouncy".
What i find funny on your assessment is that you are basically trying to link-clear yourself, since 'scum!sepi wouldn't make such a weak vote on town!chris', its funny because such a scenario would also completely ignore the idea of 'scum!sep placing such a weak vote on scum!chris' it looks on the surface that you are trying to provide justification for me being town but it also works as a way to indirectly try to clear yourself, its an interesting word choice so i will try to note it for later.
As of right now I will admit my vote is very weak and have very little to base it off, as i have stated my level of investment has been really limited for varied reasons and i have no way to actually provide more than a the vote i have right now, the mass claim suggestion is the first one i feel i can contribute with which is why im in favor of, hopefully resulting in better involvement afterwards.
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Skimmed the posts since I was gone, quite a lot there and will need to do a proper read of it later. Did notice a couple things:
1. It appears one has responded at all to the question I asked and then again before I left asked people to respond to.
2. I didn't like votes on Snurfy and I saw a number of those so I will need to read into them.
3. I will not claim toDay under any circumstances.
4. Sepi got prodded (this is just a note to myself for the future)
5. Seppel got super into big long analysis posts that didn't really do much in Vagrant Story, he was scum. Worth noting.
Most likely won't get all the way caught up today.
OK, I'm gonna hop on the antny wagon here because we really need to get a lynch off before deadline, and Zionite is looking more and more town. Unvote, Vote Antny223
I may ISO him later and see what I can see.
Incidentally, this post is exacly the sort of thing I mean by lynchbait. No one, scum or town, should ever make a post like this. I don't even understand what could possibly be going through his head to make this kind of post, from any mindset.
Sure, there are some specific aspects of design that are usually fixed, but those were actually already broken by the hypothetical scenario if everyone is telling the truth - there's a miller with no cop. But most aspects of design aren't that fixed.
It's easy to construct a plan and say "this should work!" but if your preconceptions don't match the mod's preconceptions, you lose. Say the mod decided to put in two Docs. You decide "Oh there can't be two docs", call it a "counterclaim scenario", lynch one, flips town, decide it must be the other one, lynch that one - now you've wasted two lynches and both protective roles.
Yeah, except that would never happen. Say there were two docs and we called it a counterclaim scenario, and we lynched one and he flipped town. Guess what would happen? The other one would get power-rolled somehow. Vigged or investigated or whatever else, and probably roleblocked, too. Zero chance of that person using up a second uncertain lynch. And that's in the worst case scenario, remember: 99% of the time, you'll have caught a scum in one lynch (+potentially some number of night actions) at the cost of the doc, which 100% worth it.
Yes, it's true that lynching based on claims can have drawbacks, but guess what? So can lynching based on behavior. No strategy is ever going to be 100%, or the game would be solved and boring. All we can do is play the percentages, and those are at their best when you combine behavioral analysis *with* role-based analysis.
I agree that we should combine role-based analysis with behavioral analysis, but you have to consider the costs of doing so. And Seppel made it sound like massclaim == solved, and it sounds like the drawbacks of a massclaim (doc, cop, vig outed, etc.) are mostly being ignored.
But maybe I'm wrong. You've convinced me to give it a shot. If enough people agree, I'll go along with a mass claim.
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I think you misunderstood.
It meant that the notion of a massclaim did not look promising for the rest of the town to say yes to.
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Hm. I suppose you're right about the fact that really none of it is necessary. My point though, is that when one reads that post, one reads that towns suck at finding scum D1, then immediately connect the 'we' in the second half to 'towns', leading people to think tha you are part of the town (not by behavior, but by verbiage, which is my problem). I think you a player capable of creative and deceptive wordplay. And I believe that's what this is.
Now, regarding that whole 'KJ said my townies, now he's calling me out on it'... What you and I did is very different. I intentionally hyperbolized my RVS post. I wasn't trying to hide the fact that I was calling myself townie. My intention for said post was to make one think I was obviously not being serious, whereas the intention of yours is more deceptive, IMO.
What are you even talking about?
Why was Plow ever town to begin with?
++town for Kami.This is a town post. Head appears in the right place.
Can you quote the part where I said or implied this? Cuz I'm pretty sure I didn't.
@Everyone Where did anyone propose a massclaim? I'm absolutely against it , FTR.
How is tunneling nontown? Also I never said I wouldn't look for the answers, I said I wouldn't look for them THEN. I had no time then. I barely have time now.
Something pings my scumdar about hunt, it feels like he's buddying every chance he gets.
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There was something he did early on that came across townie, I've forgotten what it was now.
The same way that when you get a few votes on you, you immediately try to pass them back off to me?
I wouldn't say EVERY chance I get, that is a bit excessive. What posts were you referring to? There are certainly instances of me being polite that can be viewed as buddying.
If you ISO Seppel you will find a few occasions where it was brought up. A few others have answered, some for the proposition and more against it.
YOU QUOTED MY INITIAL RESPONSE AND KAMI'S FOLLOWUP QUERY BUT FAILED TO QUOTE MY RESPONSE TO KAMI IN #628 WHICH LITERALLY ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION
ALSO IT WAS IN ALLCAPS SO IT'S NOT LIKE YOU COULD'VE MISSED IT
LET'S SEE TWO POSSIBILITIES:
OR:
Here's a sample...
Miller
Bus Driver
Roleblocker
Rolecop
JOAT-(Gunsmith/Hider/Rolecop)
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Motivator
Gunsmith
Vigilante
Vanilla Townie
Commuter
Tracker
Neighborizor
Vanilla Townie
Doctor
Vanilla Townie
Jailkeeper
That's a hypothetical of 18 roles for the 18 players in this game. Which of those roles are the fake-claims? Now the scum know which of the PR's to shoot or not shoot. I'm glad I could highlight the silliness of mass claiming day one.
When you saw the words "Here's a sample" and "that's a hypothetical" in post 712, what went through your mind? What was the thought process you underwent that caused you to make post 713?
Rolecop +> Miller
Vigilante +> Gunsmith
v
Commuter +> JOAT-(Gunsmith/Hider/Rolecop)
Roleblocker <-> Bus Driver
Motivator
+Tracker
+Doctor
+Jailkeeper
+Neighborizor
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
-> Vanilla Townie
?> Vanilla Townie
==============================
Assuming that VTs are on the table...
Mafiate #1: [Lynch the JOAT. Total liar.]
Mafiate #2: [Rolecop check Miller's story. Lynch Rolecop. If mafia, lynch Miller.]
Mafiate #3: [Vig shoots commuter. Commuter doesn't commute. If commuter not dead and roleblocker's story isn't coordinated with one of the motivator's targets (or even the motivator), lynch the commuter. If commuter isn't mafia, lynch the Gunsmith.]
Mafiate #4: [Either the roleblocker or the Bus Driver. It should be apparent now.]
Mafiate #5: [Vanilla townie.]
If there's a Mafiate #6: [Likely a vanilla townie.]
If Motivator turns out to be mafia, then the Tracker, Doc, Jailer, and Neighborizor are still on the table, but by the time you get to Mafiate #3, those four roles should mostly be dead or have proven themselves town by finding mafia. It's likely that one of them would be busing for towncred (even though it's worthless in this setup). If that happens, behavior analysis will show who's mafia. If the Rolecop is somehow town, he can start picking through the vanilla townies alongside behavior analysis.
Thanks for the thought exercise.
@SirChris: If you think my vote is nonsense, please do tell me, why Zio is town in your opinion.
You and DCIII in Vagrant Story, for example. Serious answer.
Aside from the fact that there's a *ton* of valuable information there to work with that would nearly guarantee a town vic, a situation like this would basically be the worst-case scenario. More likely, at least one scum would be forced to claim early and try to claim something that a townie could counterclaim. Or they'd be forced to expose some information that one town role or another would be able to use to prove them scum.
Stop trying to make D1 massclaim happen. It isn't going to happen.
PJ, explain what you mean by "lynchbait".
Vote count!
imabusinessman (1): Zionite
Snurfy8 (3): 7hawk77, Seppel, KamikazeArchon
Sir Chris (2): Sepiriel, Killjoy
Huntzilla (2): Snurfy8, imabusinessman
Seppel (1): TCM
Zionite (4): Puddle Jumper, Hunger, Antny223, Bur
Sepiriel (1): ITF
Antny223 (2): Plowshares, waitingforgodot
Puddle Jumper (1): Huntzilla
Killjoy (2): Sir Chris (2)
With 18 players alive, it takes 10 to lynch.
The deadline is 3/22/15 at 11:59 PM EST. (For future reference, each deadline will reflect Eastern Standard Time--in case I forget to include that, like my last post.)
Hunger is V/LA until March 17th
I haven't had the time yet, but I will prod check tomorrow afternoon/night.
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By lynchbait I mean that snurfy posts like he doesn't understand things. He says things that it makes no sense for scum *or* town to say, so it's very easy to jump on him for saying suspicious things and get him lynched even though the case for him being scum isn't actually any stronger than the case for him being town. That's not to say that I think he's town, but 1) the case against Zionite actually makes for a pretty good lynch, and 2) snurfy and Zionite have interacted enough that Zionite's alignment will make it easier to read snurfy.
As for the massclaim, with the deadline in less than a week, I'd have thought people would be more for it. We have too many lurkers to develop a stronger case than the one on Zio and get them lynched in the time we have left without a major game changer, and Zio is apparently a non-starter (because he's scum and his 'mates don't want to lynch him). Massclaiming is a pro-towm move and a good option for kickstarting a day that is rapidly moving towards No Lynching.
I think we need to come together and form a plan. The deadline is approaching and we are no closer to a consensus than we were during RVS, despite the fact we somehow have 29 pages of content to analyze. If we aren't going down the massclaim route, perhaps we could all put up our T/S lists in order to find overlap for the lynch. If we wasted a month of real time only to No Lynch like TCM suggested we do on the first page, I will most likely laugh and cry, though it would be fitting for how this game has gone. If people have other ideas, I would love to hear them. I actually agree with Puddle that we have a lot of lurking that contributed to the position we are now in. For those of us that are active, let's see if we can't figure out the best course of action.
Mostly language tells. How you say specific things, not what you say. It's weaker evidence and hard to convince others but still relevant to my outlook.
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Except that's literally impossible. At least one of the JOAT & Commuter are confirmed mafia.
At least one of the Rolecop & Miller are confirmed mafia too.
JOAT claimed "hider" which is the same effect as "commuter," therefore one is lying. (Any mod that uses two different terms for the same effect should deserve for his game to go down in flames.) Normally I'd say the commuter is the liar because of how frequently it's used as a mafia falseclaim on MTGS (cough cough if you're a commuter you should claim now if you ever want me to believe you), but considering the presence of a motivator, the JOAT's abilities are soooo scum-sided, and the JOAT's GS ability is likely a Fabricator. It's possible they're both scum!
From there, everything starts to go downhill -- the Miller has no info roles claimed, so either there's a cop hiding (in which case he should claim correctly to save that dude's face) or it's a bastard setup. Ergo, the rolecop should check the miller. We have a night to do so, because we're lynching the JOAT. This forces the rolecop to either tell the truth or lie, which is useful for finding out if they're both scum.
At that point, the vig has had some prime targets to shoot, and if he's ever roleblocked or driven, the roleblocker/driver is lynched.
In other words, the massclaim gave the town a massive advantage. And behavioral analysis will weed out any straggling scum.
If I knew seppel was town this game.
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Because for all the theory discussion in the world, I'm not going to take part in a massclaim toDay.
First of all, that's a stupid argument because there's a whole pile of abilities going on and there's no way for the scum to shut down every useful piece of info. The situation where you massclaim with that much power in the town (and we know there's actually more than in this example) does not lend itself to the town mislynching very much, especially as people start dying. Even if, for example, the JOAT really were town, Day 2 would provide us with such a huge quantity of information that we would probably be physically unable to mislynch again.
Second of all, that's a stupid argument because "concept of balance" isn't as fluid as you seem to think. There are certain fundamentals to game design that can't be messed with, and first among those is "You can't design a game to only be winnable if the players assume the mod is a liar." Sticking a miller in a game without any way of telling that there's a miller in the game violates the single most important tenet of writing a mafia game.
Third of all, that's a stupid argument because ignores the actual fact that the example setup is obviously not our setup. That example was specifically given to be tough on the town - the fact that it actually isn't that tough should only highlight that most powered setups are pretty darn easy to crack.
Fourth of all, that's a stupid argument because it assumes that we're somehow going to hit a magical scenario where none of the scum are forced into a counterclaim scenario by having to claim early, which is just not very likely, and even if it does happen, is going to be associated with such a large amount of hedging that the scum aren't going to be able to work within their roles nearly as freely as the example suggests.
What's stopping you from Discussing whatever's important to you now while ignoring what's not relevant to you? It's not like there has beeN several discussions going on at he same time earlier. And you've pretty much been lurking all game anyway so I don't see how this theory discussion is changing things for you. It's like you're using that as an excuse.
I'm pretty down with lynching Antny based on this post alone, at this point. Some useless lurker complaining about the only definitely pro-town plan we've talked about all day while adding exactly zero worthwhile content is exactly the sort of mindset I'd expect from a scum trying to minimize his exposure to examination.
Unvote, Vote Antny*
And seriously, guys, we should *not* be okay with No Lynching here. Anyone who doesn't have a wagon to be on needs to get one. If you don't want to talk about mass claiming, then state your case, refresh your vote, and stop being a pointless waste of space.
*Still down with lynching Zio, though, if we can get enough votes.
Unvote, Vote Antny223
I may ISO him later and see what I can see.
Sure, there are some specific aspects of design that are usually fixed, but those were actually already broken by the hypothetical scenario if everyone is telling the truth - there's a miller with no cop. But most aspects of design aren't that fixed.
It's easy to construct a plan and say "this should work!" but if your preconceptions don't match the mod's preconceptions, you lose. Say the mod decided to put in two Docs. You decide "Oh there can't be two docs", call it a "counterclaim scenario", lynch one, flips town, decide it must be the other one, lynch that one - now you've wasted two lynches and both protective roles.
unvote:Huntzilla
vote:zionite
Everyone remember, it's plurality voting so while PJ's vote isn't gross, snurfy's most definitely is.
Incidentally, this post is exacly the sort of thing I mean by lynchbait. No one, scum or town, should ever make a post like this. I don't even understand what could possibly be going through his head to make this kind of post, from any mindset.
Yeah, except that would never happen. Say there were two docs and we called it a counterclaim scenario, and we lynched one and he flipped town. Guess what would happen? The other one would get power-rolled somehow. Vigged or investigated or whatever else, and probably roleblocked, too. Zero chance of that person using up a second uncertain lynch. And that's in the worst case scenario, remember: 99% of the time, you'll have caught a scum in one lynch (+potentially some number of night actions) at the cost of the doc, which 100% worth it.
Yes, it's true that lynching based on claims can have drawbacks, but guess what? So can lynching based on behavior. No strategy is ever going to be 100%, or the game would be solved and boring. All we can do is play the percentages, and those are at their best when you combine behavioral analysis *with* role-based analysis.
I'm at a similar place. All the massclaim theory discussion is doing is letting people appear to be active and distract people from actually scumhunting when we are approaching a deadline.
I am not against a massclaim, but I seriously doubt everyone is on board. And we do not have the time to convince them otherwise.
It's not that I couldn't ignore it Imab, or that it is "just another discussion." It is the fact that we are running out of time and we need to be coming to a vote consensus, and this is allowing people to distract the town. The whole discussion and filling the thread with quotes walls of FICTIONAL SCENARIOS is actually anti-town.
I agree with your sentiment, that a No Lynch is not acceptable here. We need to pick some wagons and stick to them.
That being said....
This post is scummy as it gets. Opportunistic and gross. Though I do concur with Zionite looking more townie lately. Albeit, quiet.
And this is what makes Imab super townie. Exactly what I was thinking on Snurfy. Not exactly what I was thinking on Zionite, but we have already had that discussion.
Unvote
Vote Snurfy8
Lynchbait or not, that is just poor...
I haven't seen a case from you so I can only assume this is the OMGUS vote that makes you even more scum.
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Hunger is V/LA until March 17th.
The deadline for Day 1 is March 22nd at 11:59 PM EST.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
That being said, i have not actually being able to get invested in this game as much as i wanted, so i have actually not managed to re-read as much as i wanted.
I am actually ok with the massclaim, Seppel gave sound reasoning for it and I personally have no downside claiming, well at least i think i dont...
@Hans: I am not seeing any mail notice on my tab... apologies for the lack of activity
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What i find funny on your assessment is that you are basically trying to link-clear yourself, since 'scum!sepi wouldn't make such a weak vote on town!chris', its funny because such a scenario would also completely ignore the idea of 'scum!sep placing such a weak vote on scum!chris' it looks on the surface that you are trying to provide justification for me being town but it also works as a way to indirectly try to clear yourself, its an interesting word choice so i will try to note it for later.
As of right now I will admit my vote is very weak and have very little to base it off, as i have stated my level of investment has been really limited for varied reasons and i have no way to actually provide more than a the vote i have right now, the mass claim suggestion is the first one i feel i can contribute with which is why im in favor of, hopefully resulting in better involvement afterwards.
Unvote, Vote: Snurfy. Because Seppel. Would still support a Zionite Lynch.
I do not support a Massclaim, though.
I'm still bored.
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WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Skimmed the posts since I was gone, quite a lot there and will need to do a proper read of it later. Did notice a couple things:
1. It appears one has responded at all to the question I asked and then again before I left asked people to respond to.
2. I didn't like votes on Snurfy and I saw a number of those so I will need to read into them.
3. I will not claim toDay under any circumstances.
4. Sepi got prodded (this is just a note to myself for the future)
5. Seppel got super into big long analysis posts that didn't really do much in Vagrant Story, he was scum. Worth noting.
Most likely won't get all the way caught up today.
But maybe I'm wrong. You've convinced me to give it a shot. If enough people agree, I'll go along with a mass claim.