As a result, it's conceivable he noticed the discrepancy in the vote-count, and decided to capitalize on it as scum. I want to spend some more time thinking about the relative likelihoods of those two scenarios. At first blush, this iteration of the self-vote is a lot less impassioned and frustrated than the previous one.
At the end of the day, that's all just WIFOM. I can explain the difference in emotion between this and the last. This time, the difference is that I was apathetic, rather than frustrated, because of the way I expect to still be a part of the game after being lynched. This whole get your power after you die gives death a certain appeal.
Whatever you guys do, please do not clear me based on that stupid incorrect self hammer. Az is right, it shouldn't make you think one way or the other on me. I've done it before and it is why people thought I was town. I hated that feeling. It's one thing to be cleared as town for behavior that you mean to do. It feels awful to be cleared for a mistake.
This is way too slick. I know nothing about you; but I figure the emotion you showed was real along with the defeatism... and this makes me second guess that because it is such a well worded bit of self realism/reflection. I feel like I'm being pulled into liking you so that your last paragraph has a bigger impact. Probably paranoia, but I'm suddenly very wary of you.
Hunt is Town, guys. I've said it before, but I'll reiterate: He's posting like a kid in high school who just moved to a new town and is trying to fit in with the cool kids. The "slips" that have been brought up make more sense as such and not as scummy. I read no masking of intentions anywhere.
I dislike AE and Az buddying up like they have. It's almost assuredly because one of them is scum. But I'm pretty sure it's only one and not both. Two veterans teaming up on a new player seems kinda odd.
Rhand's answer does little to placate me. Rhand, how does whipping your vote around to three players inside of a day help to find scum? Spreading your pressure around only serves to weaken the individual attacks in my opinion.
I really like Generic.
I rather dislike Seppel.
Dechs's vote on Hunt is ridiculously bad. In post 173 he apologizes for not participating and says, "I have not seen anything that makes me want to move my vote." Then, 6.5 hours and 8 posts later, he unvotes and votes Hunt without explaining what changed from his earlier read on Hunt as simply "newb."
Unvote: Rhand, Vote: Dechs
Also, vote for Plowshares. He's even got the worst vote on Dech's wagon! Assuming the naked vote is a meaningless vote and positioning himself as "Hunt is town and I see that, and Dechs sees Hunt as scum and is wrong so he is scum" is both easy and a good point to hop on a wagon he barely mentions again no matter what Dech's alingment is. He even says he isn't any less suspicious of Rhand in the post to boot.
Dechs, long Days benefit scum because fatigue sets in. Also, the longer a game takes in real life, the higher the chance of replacements, which throws off reads - again a scum benefit.
I think scum self-hammering is a tactical mistake, but they do still do it.
This is way too slick. I know nothing about you; but I figure the emotion you showed was real along with the defeatism... and this makes me second guess that because it is such a well worded bit of self realism/reflection. I feel like I'm being pulled into liking you so that your last paragraph has a bigger impact. Probably paranoia, but I'm suddenly very wary of you.
Now you understand why Az is so conflicted about me. I talk like this every game.
For what it's worth, I am an aspiring author. Wording things well is what I do.
If you talk about a pair of pants belonging to Chris, they are not Chri's pants. They can be Chris' pants or Chris's pants depending on how you'd like to pronounce it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
[quote from="Dechs Kaison »" url=For what it's worth, I am an aspiring author. Wording things well is what I do.
...
I told you guys someone would do this.
If you talk about a pair of pants belonging to Chris, they are not Chri's pants. They can be Chris' pants or Chris's pants depending on how you'd like to pronounce it.[/quote]FWIW I'm an engineer making me care very little about your petty grammar scruples.
Alright, Azrael has completely changed my mind on him at this point. I would like someone to confirm his claim that he acts this way on every day one, but if that is true, I am ready to believe his story. I was leaning towards him for a while, but that was solely based on his loose behavior, it felt so weird form what I have read of others, it threw me for a loop. Az really switched my view on him after I re-read the vote count debacle. He could have hammered, he could have let the vote go actually, it wouldn't have even looked scummy if he simply said NOTHING at all, but instead, he saved the day, stopped the lynch, and really has started posting some quality stuff. The lurky/weirdness has dissipated and I am liking it. Complete turn around in my mind.
Dechs is good for now too. I am thinking I was wrong about him. I took personally his attacks and I feel bad that I may have contributed to (almost) lynching a townie toDay.
I do not a have a grasp of the Plowshares case. Basically he is scummy because he is too confident in his read of me? Am I getting that right? So, if he is too confident in his read of me, it is because he has more information, and if he has more information, it is because he is on the scum team... Makes sense, but I am not feeling the scum vibe from him yet.
VOTE ARCHMAGE_ETERNAL
Archmage Eternal on the other hand... He has only posted anything in terms of reads towards me. He has asked vague questions a few times, but nothing major. He is actively lurking, and only posts if prodded to do so. His case against me is.... what again? I am still not following what you are trying to say? I have explained until I was blue in the face the whole Seppel vs Generic case. If you don't agree at this point, I can't help you. Archmage, is there ANYTHING else you can give us? On your read of me, or ANYONE ELSE for that matter?
Limited Access Driving home for the weekend. I will be able to access the site from my phone, but not often as this is the only family time I get each week. I will return to full access Saturday, 10PM Gulf Standard.
I'd like to see what everyone thinks of Kamikaze's self contradiction. His recent explanation does nothing to diminish the fact that he said two contradictory statements. He admits scum self hammer as a tactic to cut discussion short, but then scrutinizes Az for wanting to get more discussion. You can't play both sides of the same coin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
@Azrael: why first ask for an unvote to then scrutinise the person who does?
I don't like that you missed my question to you twice, but I guess it lost its power now that you moved away from Hunt :/
Oh. I wrote this off because I thought you didn't care much about it and because Dechs answered it. Dechs was already out of danger. I didn't necessarily mind that Generic unvoted. I disliked that it was unclear WHY he was unvoting.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think you may all be forgetting that it's AE we're talking about. Possibly the person most mislynched on day one in the entire mafia-playing universe.
I think you may all be forgetting that it's AE we're talking about. Possibly the person most mislynched on day one in the entire mafia-playing universe.
I've got the feeling that AE is town and Azrael knows it.
Not seeing where Dechs is confirmed town, but Azrael's tone in response to the shift to AE is much scummier. It reads like he's trying to sell something, and I don't like that.
Vote Azrael.
Seppel, can you explain why you said Dech is conftown? I can agree with laying off the pressure on him at the moment, but I'm not seeing that extent, which makes me think I missed a post somewhere when catching up.
I remain suspicious of AE independent of Azrael. I am far from sold on this being an either-or scenario.
Saving grace that votecount error. Dechs, calling the rest of us idiots when you self hammered in your mind is beyond stupid. So please pull your head out of your ass and focus on what you are supposedly here to do... Find the ******* scum team!
Azrael, my main concern about your efforts here is that you have handed us back the day which I give you massive props of highlighting, but then go on to keep dechs as potential scum for one of the better plays I will have ever seen if what you are theorizing is true.
That hands me a combination potential to pocket for later, it's irrelevent for now.
So dechs, who are your top scum reads at this moment in time? You have town cleared seppel and arianrhod, which o would live an explanation for, but who are your main suspects?
If people are wondering where I am, I have noticed that the game is being starved and have lost interest.
And since it was azrael who was complaining about not ending the day early and yet has done absolutely nothing with that extended time, I'm happy to switch to his wagon. I want the dichotomy between AE and azrael decided anway.
unvote, vote azrael
So what's Az's goal in extending the day and not adding content to you? And how are you not doing the same thing?
Seppel, can you explain why you said Dech is conftown? I can agree with laying off the pressure on him at the moment, but I'm not seeing that extent, which makes me think I missed a post somewhere when catching up.
Somebody made a good point about Dechs and referenced past games. We also get powers when we're dead, which is a good reason for him to be okay with dying. So I'm cool with him.
This is not an easy one for me. Az has acted weird all game. He seems to WANT to die. I do not trust that, but here is the dilemma. He could have said NOTHING, and let the day end. Instead, he saves the day, doesn't let Dechs get lynched, states that this "extra" time can be used for discussion, but then does nothing with it. I am conflicted, because to me this means that Dechs is surely scum again, why else would Az go through the trouble of saving him. Unless Az is actually town, and in that case, we shouldn't be lynching him.
It is no secret I have not liked Dechs, Az, or AE all game. Dechs has been put to the side for now. I can't believe more people aren't ready for AE to get lynched. But if people are ready for Az to get lynched, I am on board. He has been so strange all game. I am afraid this is eactly what he wants though.
Az, you still haven't answered my question. You said we were lucky Seppel was still alive. What did you mean by that?
I think we're lucky he wasn't mod-killed for breaking the rule against PM quotation. He was explicitly trying to use the specifics of townie role PM formatting to clear himself. A lot of people would have nailed him for that, no questions asked.
This is not an easy one for me. Az has acted weird all game. He seems to WANT to die. I do not trust that, but here is the dilemma. He could have said NOTHING, and let the day end. Instead, he saves the day, doesn't let Dechs get lynched, states that this "extra" time can be used for discussion, but then does nothing with it. I am conflicted, because to me this means that Dechs is surely scum again, why else would Az go through the trouble of saving him. Unless Az is actually town, and in that case, we shouldn't be lynching him.
It is no secret I have not liked Dechs, Az, or AE all game. Dechs has been put to the side for now. I can't believe more people aren't ready for AE to get lynched. But if people are ready for Az to get lynched, I am on board. He has been so strange all game. I am afraid this is eactly what he wants though.
unvote AE
Vote Azrael
The longer you play, the more you'll find that strange is not the same thing as scummy. Strange is a sign that you need to get more information.
Especially when I've gone on record stating that I've been intentionally acting strange for the sake of generating information. Something I've been doing for literally a decade, in almost every town game I've played:
The plus side of this is that we get a ton of information, which I can use to break the game open and often find 2-3 scum on day one. That's usually how things go. If I pull this tactic in a game with people who aren't familiar with me, very occasionally, it will backfire. But it's usually a safe play amongst people familiar with my playstyle, such as AE or Seppel, bc those people know how I work and can vouch for me.
AE I'm not surprise that he hasn't all that much, because it's AE. Seppel, I'm not certain about, I think he's writing off my weird activity as a null tell and just plain misreading me as town. Which annoys me that he's playing loose enough to push me this close to lynch on a day one before I've even had a chance to start analyzing. But if you press him, he'll admit that gathering reactions was exactly what I was doing. He may argue it's null, but he'll have to admit it's not a tell for me.
Hunt, you noticed a big change in my posting style, one that had more content. That's my ordinary style of play after I get into a rhythmn in the game. As of yet, I haven't had the time to go back and do an entire thread reread. That's my next step: compile all the available information we have from your wagon, which was about 50% honest suspicion and 50% bait to see how people would react. I think we've got plowshares caught because of that, and several other townies more or less cleared, but there's a good 2/3 of the town I still need to get reads on.
My plan if you guys don't blow your load in a classic weird=scummy rush lynch is to go back and do that research, and hopefully catch most of the scum team, today, before ending the day. Check out Cyan's Impossible Mafia or in MTGS Mafia Redux 2. That's exactly what I did.
Okay, so I unvoted you to give you some more time. It avoids the quickhammer, though I might argue that someone had plenty of time after I put you at L-1 to go ahead and do so if they wanted. I like this post, I can get behind this post, and I can follow the logic. That is what I need as a player, some logic to follow. Weird equates to illogical, hence why I could not get behind you previously. I hear you loud and clear that in Mafia, weird will not always equal scummy. I wrote that down in my little book of tid bits for later use.
I am going to put you on the spot now though. What information do you have for us? When are you doing this re-read to let us into where the reaction searching has gotten you? I need information! I am not really fond of the wagon on you this second. I think we should be squarely on the lurking folks, chiefly AE. AE has done NOTHING this game. Not even act weird. Just berate me for being new, not follow up with any actual scumhunting posts, and avoid just about anything thrown at him. You keep saying "That's AE." But I am sorry, that just doesn't cut it for me. Can you give me anything else on him? He does not seem to be sticking up for you in your moment of need. You have written him off already, saying it's okay he didn't come to your aid, but that doesn't sit well with me. You are shocked Seppel hasn't stuck up for you, but he has actually been pushing you at this point.
I did notice a change a little while ago, where you stepped up the posting, but it was after Seppel and I (I think it was us two) asked you to step it up a bit, in different ways. I am trying to go by memory on this point, but basically, I was able to get behind the Az that was posting good stuff, solid points, and some informative talk. I would like more of that going forward, and this last post was good in that regard.
So, you are thinking we caught Plowshares. Who else are we looking to catch? I am starting to feel like to get everyone else engaged we need to shake this up a bit.
Okay, so I unvoted you to give you some more time. It avoids the quickhammer, though I might argue that someone had plenty of time after I put you at L-1 to go ahead and do so if they wanted. I like this post, I can get behind this post, and I can follow the logic. That is what I need as a player, some logic to follow. Weird equates to illogical, hence why I could not get behind you previously. I hear you loud and clear that in Mafia, weird will not always equal scummy. I wrote that down in my little book of tid bits for later use.
I am going to put you on the spot now though. What information do you have for us? When are you doing this re-read to let us into where the reaction searching has gotten you? I need information! I am not really fond of the wagon on you this second. I think we should be squarely on the lurking folks, chiefly AE. AE has done NOTHING this game. Not even act weird. Just berate me for being new, not follow up with any actual scumhunting posts, and avoid just about anything thrown at him. You keep saying "That's AE." But I am sorry, that just doesn't cut it for me. Can you give me anything else on him? He does not seem to be sticking up for you in your moment of need. You have written him off already, saying it's okay he didn't come to your aid, but that doesn't sit well with me. You are shocked Seppel hasn't stuck up for you, but he has actually been pushing you at this point.
I did notice a change a little while ago, where you stepped up the posting, but it was after Seppel and I (I think it was us two) asked you to step it up a bit, in different ways. I am trying to go by memory on this point, but basically, I was able to get behind the Az that was posting good stuff, solid points, and some informative talk. I would like more of that going forward, and this last post was good in that regard.
So, you are thinking we caught Plowshares. Who else are we looking to catch? I am starting to feel like to get everyone else engaged we need to shake this up a bit.
I think we caught Plowshares. I think I need to keep a firm eye on Dechs, but he's not going to be an easy read. Several people I think we can clear: Emo Pinata, possibly Seppel, and I'm thinking you're likely to be town - it helps that Plowshares' defense on you was a pretty classic scum-defending townie pattern.
I sympathize with your feelings on AE - if I hadn't mislynched him or seen him mislynched for doing the exact same things half a dozen times over the years, I would be right behind you. As is, he's actually seems markedly more content-providing and active than I'm used to from him. If that raises your eyebrows, I can't really blame you.
I'm actually not particularly shocked Seppel isn't riding to my defense -traditionally, my most consistent scum tell is inactivity. However, some degree of delayed reaction in my scum-hunting has also become more of a simple fact of life now that I'm older, no longer a student, married, working, etc.
I guess in the line of other insights on AE's personality, have you ever heard of the term Aezwolging?
That's a term coined out of my name, AE's, and a guy called Well of Lost Gnomes. All of us, at one point or another, made a unilateral vigilante shot that turned out epicly bad. In my case, I shot the doctor. I can't recall who it was that AE shot, but IIRC it was coming out of a happy-go-lucky mindset that wasn't particularly interested in playing altogether competitively or strictly by the book. I was trying to do the right thing. I don't think AE really cared all that terribly if his shot went badly, because he was trying to have fun.
AE simply didn't take the game all that seriously. Probably still doesn't. That's my impression, at any rate.
Az, what do you think about your wagon? You never really addressed it directly aside from a very long-winded self meta (and almost grandfatherly) speech to Hunt.
Az, what do you think about your wagon? You never really addressed it directly aside from a very long-winded self meta (and almost grandfatherly) speech to Hunt.
I don't really have strong feelings about it at this point because I need to go back and do a full reread. There are some people's voting rationales who I'm looking at askance, Kami's vote made my eyebrows perk up, and I don't feel particularly great about Rhand at this point. I think Seppel and HZ were mistaken town, though Seppel's vote would have made me worried coming from anyone else, and Arian's vote doesn't ping me much.
This was Kami's vote:
Quote from kami »
I really don't like Azrael's reaction. First, why would self-hammering be a town tell in the first place? Scum self-hammer all the time. More importantly, I don't like that Az immediately offers both town and scum read options on Dechs. Feels to me like he's positioning himself to come out looking good no matter what. Reviewing Az, I also don't like how many naked or low-justification votes he places. And I don't like his push to extend the Day here. Long games benefit scum more than town.
vote Azrael
Generic, why are you asking him for scum suspects when he just told you to lynch Az and Plowshares?
Dechs, why do you care about a hitman if you're killing yourself anyway?
Taking a second look at this, it's possible that we just violently disagree about mafia theory and he swallowed the bait hook, line, and sinker. He does seem to generate not just a single reason for his vote, but an entire array of reasons that mutually reinforce one another. Although some of them are pretty shaky, it's generally indicative of a town vote.
Probably the most interesting thing about my wagon, though, is what isn't there. Plowshares hasn't weighed in. He's pretty much gone dark, very little posting, ever since I voiced my suspicions of him, and only grew more silent after my wagon took off. Probably hoping to allow the townies to kill off their own without having to get his hands dirty, I'm thinking. Townies almost always have something to say when the person who was attacking them most heavily comes under heavy assault, and eight times out of ten, it's a vote, or at least some very pointed questions.
-Hmm, DK and KJ taking the bait on Seppel's name-claim gambit (or hitman gambit). Nothing much useful in their reactions, though.
- Rhand's point about Dechs' language "sealed it" is a fair one. There, and in post 51, he's projecting a lot of confidence for a RVS read. An oddity, not necessarily a strong scum indicator though. It was bait to begin with - it's supposed to look juicy.
-In post 65, Dechs' soft job claim is probably a weak town tell. You ordinarily see limited claims from townies, scum tend to be more reserved about their role information, either instinctively, or to keep false-claim options open, or because it's incriminating. +Town Dechs
-Arian's post 71 is townish. He's very excited to see a townie-looking Seppel.
-Hunt is being very confessional in his posts throughout this period, doing a good job of openly volunteering information about his mindset. Strong town tell.
-Kamikaze's 84 is pretty cursory. Briefly mentions a few things he doesn't like, then backs out. Not seeing pro-town indicators out of him.
-More short posts from Kamikaze @93.
-Not sure how to take generic's 94. He's handing out cookies to Kamikaze for not scum-reading him.
-Further generic posts are really tightly focused on Seppel. I'm not really getting pro-town indicators here, either. It's often a scum tell to focus on just one or two people tightly at a time, and avoid forming reads or impressions on multiple players organically. He's also asked multiple players their opinions on Seppel, which may be an attempt to gauge support for his choice of mislynch.
#122 and 123 from generic are pretty over-aggressive.
Finished catching up and then subsequently re-reading everything.
What were you looking for here, Az? I've never heard of a knowledge or meta claim. Something as simple as as how many games you've played in and your typical style?
I really don't like all of Seppel's repeated mod/pm gaming and the direct attempt at "obvtown" status. It seems he is more interested in gaming the game than he is in hunting for scumminess, and his reaction-baiting vote on Generic seems like a ploy to flare Generic's temper and push a mislynch on a known aggressive player.
Hunt is acting very self-aware and feels like he's TRYING rather than DOING, but both could simply be signs of inexperience as they feel more like the new kid trying to fit in than they do like he's trying to hide something. For instance, in post #95 Hunt asks for a Town cookie from Generic. It feels so... I dunno... is innocent the right word?
Rhand is all over the place. In the span of an hour his vote goes from Dechs in 49 to Hunt in 53, and then he's pushing on KJ in 57 leading to a vote on in post 106. All three targets in just over a day IRL.
The grammatical errors burn my retinas and prevent me from seeing anything in it.
I have Town-ish reads on Dechs, Generic, and Hunt.
I am okay with a Rhand or Seppel Lynch at this time.
Vote: Rhand as I am more confident in that read. Seppel is obviously up to something, though.
In short order, we have three weak attacks on three different players.
He aligns himself in support of Generic's push on Seppel, and throws in some pretty strange reasons for the vote, such as that Seppel is trying to exploit generic's temper and isn't interested in scum-hunting.
He attacks Rhand for having three targets in a short space of time. That's the only tell he presents on Rhand, but for reason, that single data point gives him more confidence in voting for rhand than the paragraph of reasons he's worried about Seppel. Thought process isn't hanging together very well, there's a good bit of artificiality here. He also doesn't explain his town reads.
Generic's #133 reads like he's trying to coax me into a mouse trap.
Not sure how being "breezy" = scum. I'd like to see Generic explain that one.
I'm thinking Generic is counting on being read as having a town-on-town fight with Seppel, simply by using a heated tone and keeping at it ad nauseam. But I'm having a hard time reading Generic's town as genuinely convicted that Seppel is scum for the reasons given. It seems like he's repeatedly magnifying and over-exaggerating small issues in order to create a persona that other players will free to largely ignore, or else put in their town-column because he's mimicking a "town-on-town" attack style.
Post 171 from AE is a town post. Excellent conviction that he's correct and in the right.
I think post quoted @ 178 by HZ is HZ overreacting to AE's vote on him. It seems like AE's vote, and my support of it, triggered a fight or flight response. That led to some heat and artificiality in his posting style, some unfortunate use of strained rhetoric (Dechs described some of these tells as too much self-awareness), but it's probably town-consistent.
I read Generic's posts vs. Seppel as town, previously, it seems. Based on the anger in them. Not certain I was right.
#190 is another VERY strong pro-town post by AE. Full of town indicators in the tone.
204 from Dechs, his attack on HZ, reads pretty ok to me. Some good indignation, there, good attention to detail in pointing out possible problems in HZ's post such as repeated dual-reads/fence-sitting.
Quote from plowshares »
Hunt is Town, guys. I've said it before, but I'll reiterate: He's posting like a kid in high school who just moved to a new town and is trying to fit in with the cool kids. The "slips" that have been brought up make more sense as such and not as scummy. I read no masking of intentions anywhere. I dislike AE and Az buddying up like they have. It's almost assuredly because one of them is scum. But I'm pretty sure it's only one and not both. Two veterans teaming up on a new player seems kinda odd.Rhand's answer does little to placate me. Rhand, how does whipping your vote around to three players inside of a day help to find scum? Spreading your pressure around only serves to weaken the individual attacks in my opinion.I really like Generic.I rather dislike Seppel.Dechs's vote on Hunt is ridiculously bad. In post 173 he apologizes for not participating and says, "I have not seen anything that makes me want to move my vote." Then, 6.5 hours and 8 posts later, he unvotes and votes Hunt without explaining what changed from his earlier read on Hunt as simply "newb." Unvote:Rhand, Vote:Dechs
Hate this post for so many reasons. Too strongly worded in many places. No masking of intentions anywhere? So sure that HZ is town? One of AE and Az is "assuredly" scum? But he's not voting for either of us? He votes Dechs for changing his mind and frames that as some kind of cardinal sin, instead of asking what changed? He really likes Generic, and really dislikes Seppel, no reasoning provided? Despite being very suspicious of Seppel, that's all we get on him? He mentions the bit about rhand's over-aggression again, but seems to not be very committed to a read that was stronger than his read on Seppel at the time, supposedly. Not tracking very well here, at all.
Quote from EP »
Plowshares is sitting at an omnipotent view in his opinion on Huntzilla, Az, and AE. He is resolute in his defence of Hunt's townieness, but not counting points and casting shame against those vets willing to pressure the poor kid. He knows Hunt is town and wants us to know he knows.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Quote from Generic »
I want to settle the azrael and AE dichotomy though. Does anyone in this game currently believe both are town?
Also hate that Generic is trying to whip a completely baseless alignment dichotomy out of his butt over early-game banter.
As of end of page 9:
Hard Town
Azrael - Obv
emo_pinata - excellent analysis, highly natural, inquisitive
Archmage Eternal - Excellent, natural responses to HZ when provoked.
Arianrhod - So far, natural impressions. Low number of posts, but those there are, are good.
Huntzilla - A bit of posturing tells that disturbed me, but overall, he's been pretty honest and willing to discuss his mindset.
Weakly Town
Killjoy - KJ hasn't negatively pinged me. I think he's processing from a town perspective, although there aren't any flaming sky letters to assure me of that.
Dechs Kaison - A few things spook me about Dechs, mainly the repeat performance on the self-vote. But he's had some weak town tells as wells, such as the soft-claim.
Seppel - Attempting to self-clear using PM formatting. No strong behavioral indicators as of yet.
Null
Rhand - Rhand isn't making much of an impression on me, at all.
Weak Scum
Kamikaze Archon - Level of activity is somewhat truncated - short posts, limited breadth of topics. Can sometimes be a style of posting that scum use as a crutch.
Scum -
Generic - He's being repeatedly over-aggressive, manufacturing poor reasons for suspicion. I think he's trying to be viewed as having a town-on-town fight with Seppel, for the sake of generating credit. Meanwhile, he isn't sharing reads on most of the town at large.
Plowshares - Plowshares is scum. He's too certain of many of his reads without adequate justification, and the way he describes his reads and thoughts repeatedly doesn't match well with the actions he's taking in thread. There are a lot of shallow, half-hearted attacks thrown in there, and his one or two town-reads are unexplained.
Az, what do you think about your wagon? You never really addressed it directly aside from a very long-winded self meta (and almost grandfatherly) speech to Hunt.
You make me number two suspect, you press me with something and when my response is to claim my role your first post back is to not even acknowledge it
unvote, vote emo pinata
Flapjacks, bro.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This is way too slick. I know nothing about you; but I figure the emotion you showed was real along with the defeatism... and this makes me second guess that because it is such a well worded bit of self realism/reflection. I feel like I'm being pulled into liking you so that your last paragraph has a bigger impact. Probably paranoia, but I'm suddenly very wary of you.
I agree with this. The Dechs wagon srung up out of almost nowhere and now people are back to trying to point out townies above everything else.
-----
Also, vote for Plowshares. He's even got the worst vote on Dech's wagon! Assuming the naked vote is a meaningless vote and positioning himself as "Hunt is town and I see that, and Dechs sees Hunt as scum and is wrong so he is scum" is both easy and a good point to hop on a wagon he barely mentions again no matter what Dech's alingment is. He even says he isn't any less suspicious of Rhand in the post to boot.
I think scum self-hammering is a tactical mistake, but they do still do it.
Generic, what specifically?
Now you understand why Az is so conflicted about me. I talk like this every game.
For what it's worth, I am an aspiring author. Wording things well is what I do.
I told you guys someone would do this.
If you talk about a pair of pants belonging to Chris, they are not Chri's pants. They can be Chris' pants or Chris's pants depending on how you'd like to pronounce it.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
...
I told you guys someone would do this.
If you talk about a pair of pants belonging to Chris, they are not Chri's pants. They can be Chris' pants or Chris's pants depending on how you'd like to pronounce it.[/quote]FWIW I'm an engineer making me care very little about your petty grammar scruples.
On that note, unvote, vote Ploshares. Says the person taking potshots at me.
Unique flavor and a lack of continuity in role naming literally make that mean NOTHING.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Dechs is good for now too. I am thinking I was wrong about him. I took personally his attacks and I feel bad that I may have contributed to (almost) lynching a townie toDay.
I do not a have a grasp of the Plowshares case. Basically he is scummy because he is too confident in his read of me? Am I getting that right? So, if he is too confident in his read of me, it is because he has more information, and if he has more information, it is because he is on the scum team... Makes sense, but I am not feeling the scum vibe from him yet.
VOTE ARCHMAGE_ETERNAL
Archmage Eternal on the other hand... He has only posted anything in terms of reads towards me. He has asked vague questions a few times, but nothing major. He is actively lurking, and only posts if prodded to do so. His case against me is.... what again? I am still not following what you are trying to say? I have explained until I was blue in the face the whole Seppel vs Generic case. If you don't agree at this point, I can't help you. Archmage, is there ANYTHING else you can give us? On your read of me, or ANYONE ELSE for that matter?
Mean more maybe?
I dunno...
I'd like to see what everyone thinks of Kamikaze's self contradiction. His recent explanation does nothing to diminish the fact that he said two contradictory statements. He admits scum self hammer as a tactic to cut discussion short, but then scrutinizes Az for wanting to get more discussion. You can't play both sides of the same coin.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Anyone who hasn't posted something meaningful since Dechs became confirmed town is scum trying to see how this is going to blow over.
Oh. I wrote this off because I thought you didn't care much about it and because Dechs answered it. Dechs was already out of danger. I didn't necessarily mind that Generic unvoted. I disliked that it was unclear WHY he was unvoting.
Plowshares (3) - emo_pinata (137), Azrael (231), Seppel (312)
Azrael (2) - Rhand (189), KamikazeArchon (286)
Archmage Eternal (2) - Generic (301), Huntzilla (316)
Huntzilla (1) - Archmage Eternal (19)
Dechs Kaison (1) - Arianrhod (211)
KamikazeArchon (1) - Dechs Kaison (294)
Seppel (1) - Plowshares (314)
Not Voting (1) - Killjoy (148)
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Your right, I don't agree with you. You don't have to help me, that's up to the town.
Going to reread Plowshares and Kamikaze
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Lynch this ^^^
He is STILL giving nothing. He needs time to re-read? Please, somebody else has to be seeing this....
Unvote, vote AE
Also ^^^
Vote AE
I've got the feeling that AE is town and Azrael knows it.
1. Never seen a lazy townie before? They exist alright.
2. I don't think he's being particularly lazy, actually.
It's almost like I've said I think AE is town somewhere in this thread.
(I think?)
Do believe the stuff that you write, or do you just say things simply to say things....?
He's posted maybe ten times this game. Mostly about me, and otherwise about nothing substantial.
Come on Az, you have to be better than this.
Azrael's job is being a lawyer. And he's sounding super lawyery here.
Not seeing where Dechs is confirmed town, but Azrael's tone in response to the shift to AE is much scummier. It reads like he's trying to sell something, and I don't like that.
Vote Azrael.
Seppel, can you explain why you said Dech is conftown? I can agree with laying off the pressure on him at the moment, but I'm not seeing that extent, which makes me think I missed a post somewhere when catching up.
I remain suspicious of AE independent of Azrael. I am far from sold on this being an either-or scenario.
I'm guessing I'm a hider, which leads me to believe that mafia gain an ability to stop dead powers from working.
So... that makes information roles weird.
Azrael (5) - Rhand (189), KamikazeArchon (286), Seppel (335), Generic (336), Arianrhod (341)
Plowshares (2) - emo_pinata (137), Azrael (231)
Archmage Eternal (2) - Huntzilla (316), Killjoy (327)
Huntzilla (1) - Archmage Eternal (19)
KamikazeArchon (1) - Dechs Kaison (294)
Seppel (1) - Plowshares (314)
Not Voting (0)
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
Also, waypoints have been added at the bottom of the OP in a spoiler.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
It is no secret I have not liked Dechs, Az, or AE all game. Dechs has been put to the side for now. I can't believe more people aren't ready for AE to get lynched. But if people are ready for Az to get lynched, I am on board. He has been so strange all game. I am afraid this is eactly what he wants though.
unvote AE
Vote Azrael
I think we're lucky he wasn't mod-killed for breaking the rule against PM quotation. He was explicitly trying to use the specifics of townie role PM formatting to clear himself. A lot of people would have nailed him for that, no questions asked.
The longer you play, the more you'll find that strange is not the same thing as scummy. Strange is a sign that you need to get more information.
Especially when I've gone on record stating that I've been intentionally acting strange for the sake of generating information. Something I've been doing for literally a decade, in almost every town game I've played:
Example:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/446594-world-domination-mafia-2-game-thread-game-over
The plus side of this is that we get a ton of information, which I can use to break the game open and often find 2-3 scum on day one. That's usually how things go. If I pull this tactic in a game with people who aren't familiar with me, very occasionally, it will backfire. But it's usually a safe play amongst people familiar with my playstyle, such as AE or Seppel, bc those people know how I work and can vouch for me.
AE I'm not surprise that he hasn't all that much, because it's AE. Seppel, I'm not certain about, I think he's writing off my weird activity as a null tell and just plain misreading me as town. Which annoys me that he's playing loose enough to push me this close to lynch on a day one before I've even had a chance to start analyzing. But if you press him, he'll admit that gathering reactions was exactly what I was doing. He may argue it's null, but he'll have to admit it's not a tell for me.
Hunt, you noticed a big change in my posting style, one that had more content. That's my ordinary style of play after I get into a rhythmn in the game. As of yet, I haven't had the time to go back and do an entire thread reread. That's my next step: compile all the available information we have from your wagon, which was about 50% honest suspicion and 50% bait to see how people would react. I think we've got plowshares caught because of that, and several other townies more or less cleared, but there's a good 2/3 of the town I still need to get reads on.
My plan if you guys don't blow your load in a classic weird=scummy rush lynch is to go back and do that research, and hopefully catch most of the scum team, today, before ending the day. Check out Cyan's Impossible Mafia or in MTGS Mafia Redux 2. That's exactly what I did.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/446827-cyans-impossible-mafia-cyans-pick-game-a-game-over
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/447451-mtgs-mafia-redux-2-the-invitational-game-over
Be patient, give me some more time, and I can very easily analyze this game to death.
Azrael, you are driving me nuts.
I am going to put you on the spot now though. What information do you have for us? When are you doing this re-read to let us into where the reaction searching has gotten you? I need information! I am not really fond of the wagon on you this second. I think we should be squarely on the lurking folks, chiefly AE. AE has done NOTHING this game. Not even act weird. Just berate me for being new, not follow up with any actual scumhunting posts, and avoid just about anything thrown at him. You keep saying "That's AE." But I am sorry, that just doesn't cut it for me. Can you give me anything else on him? He does not seem to be sticking up for you in your moment of need. You have written him off already, saying it's okay he didn't come to your aid, but that doesn't sit well with me. You are shocked Seppel hasn't stuck up for you, but he has actually been pushing you at this point.
I did notice a change a little while ago, where you stepped up the posting, but it was after Seppel and I (I think it was us two) asked you to step it up a bit, in different ways. I am trying to go by memory on this point, but basically, I was able to get behind the Az that was posting good stuff, solid points, and some informative talk. I would like more of that going forward, and this last post was good in that regard.
So, you are thinking we caught Plowshares. Who else are we looking to catch? I am starting to feel like to get everyone else engaged we need to shake this up a bit.
I think we caught Plowshares. I think I need to keep a firm eye on Dechs, but he's not going to be an easy read. Several people I think we can clear: Emo Pinata, possibly Seppel, and I'm thinking you're likely to be town - it helps that Plowshares' defense on you was a pretty classic scum-defending townie pattern.
I sympathize with your feelings on AE - if I hadn't mislynched him or seen him mislynched for doing the exact same things half a dozen times over the years, I would be right behind you. As is, he's actually seems markedly more content-providing and active than I'm used to from him. If that raises your eyebrows, I can't really blame you.
I'm actually not particularly shocked Seppel isn't riding to my defense -traditionally, my most consistent scum tell is inactivity. However, some degree of delayed reaction in my scum-hunting has also become more of a simple fact of life now that I'm older, no longer a student, married, working, etc.
That's a term coined out of my name, AE's, and a guy called Well of Lost Gnomes. All of us, at one point or another, made a unilateral vigilante shot that turned out epicly bad. In my case, I shot the doctor. I can't recall who it was that AE shot, but IIRC it was coming out of a happy-go-lucky mindset that wasn't particularly interested in playing altogether competitively or strictly by the book. I was trying to do the right thing. I don't think AE really cared all that terribly if his shot went badly, because he was trying to have fun.
AE simply didn't take the game all that seriously. Probably still doesn't. That's my impression, at any rate.
I don't really have strong feelings about it at this point because I need to go back and do a full reread. There are some people's voting rationales who I'm looking at askance, Kami's vote made my eyebrows perk up, and I don't feel particularly great about Rhand at this point. I think Seppel and HZ were mistaken town, though Seppel's vote would have made me worried coming from anyone else, and Arian's vote doesn't ping me much.
This was Kami's vote:
Taking a second look at this, it's possible that we just violently disagree about mafia theory and he swallowed the bait hook, line, and sinker. He does seem to generate not just a single reason for his vote, but an entire array of reasons that mutually reinforce one another. Although some of them are pretty shaky, it's generally indicative of a town vote.
Probably the most interesting thing about my wagon, though, is what isn't there. Plowshares hasn't weighed in. He's pretty much gone dark, very little posting, ever since I voiced my suspicions of him, and only grew more silent after my wagon took off. Probably hoping to allow the townies to kill off their own without having to get his hands dirty, I'm thinking. Townies almost always have something to say when the person who was attacking them most heavily comes under heavy assault, and eight times out of ten, it's a vote, or at least some very pointed questions.
-Killjoy's in this game? What happened to him?
-Hmm, DK and KJ taking the bait on Seppel's name-claim gambit (or hitman gambit). Nothing much useful in their reactions, though.
- Rhand's point about Dechs' language "sealed it" is a fair one. There, and in post 51, he's projecting a lot of confidence for a RVS read. An oddity, not necessarily a strong scum indicator though. It was bait to begin with - it's supposed to look juicy.
-In post 65, Dechs' soft job claim is probably a weak town tell. You ordinarily see limited claims from townies, scum tend to be more reserved about their role information, either instinctively, or to keep false-claim options open, or because it's incriminating. +Town Dechs
-Arian's post 71 is townish. He's very excited to see a townie-looking Seppel.
-Hunt is being very confessional in his posts throughout this period, doing a good job of openly volunteering information about his mindset. Strong town tell.
-Kamikaze's 84 is pretty cursory. Briefly mentions a few things he doesn't like, then backs out. Not seeing pro-town indicators out of him.
-More short posts from Kamikaze @93.
-Not sure how to take generic's 94. He's handing out cookies to Kamikaze for not scum-reading him.
-Further generic posts are really tightly focused on Seppel. I'm not really getting pro-town indicators here, either. It's often a scum tell to focus on just one or two people tightly at a time, and avoid forming reads or impressions on multiple players organically. He's also asked multiple players their opinions on Seppel, which may be an attempt to gauge support for his choice of mislynch.
#122 and 123 from generic are pretty over-aggressive.
Ooo, check out Plowshares' 129.
In short order, we have three weak attacks on three different players.
He aligns himself in support of Generic's push on Seppel, and throws in some pretty strange reasons for the vote, such as that Seppel is trying to exploit generic's temper and isn't interested in scum-hunting.
He attacks Rhand for having three targets in a short space of time. That's the only tell he presents on Rhand, but for reason, that single data point gives him more confidence in voting for rhand than the paragraph of reasons he's worried about Seppel. Thought process isn't hanging together very well, there's a good bit of artificiality here. He also doesn't explain his town reads.
Generic's #133 reads like he's trying to coax me into a mouse trap.
Not sure how being "breezy" = scum. I'd like to see Generic explain that one.
I'm thinking Generic is counting on being read as having a town-on-town fight with Seppel, simply by using a heated tone and keeping at it ad nauseam. But I'm having a hard time reading Generic's town as genuinely convicted that Seppel is scum for the reasons given. It seems like he's repeatedly magnifying and over-exaggerating small issues in order to create a persona that other players will free to largely ignore, or else put in their town-column because he's mimicking a "town-on-town" attack style.
Post 171 from AE is a town post. Excellent conviction that he's correct and in the right.
I think post quoted @ 178 by HZ is HZ overreacting to AE's vote on him. It seems like AE's vote, and my support of it, triggered a fight or flight response. That led to some heat and artificiality in his posting style, some unfortunate use of strained rhetoric (Dechs described some of these tells as too much self-awareness), but it's probably town-consistent.
I read Generic's posts vs. Seppel as town, previously, it seems. Based on the anger in them. Not certain I was right.
#190 is another VERY strong pro-town post by AE. Full of town indicators in the tone.
204 from Dechs, his attack on HZ, reads pretty ok to me. Some good indignation, there, good attention to detail in pointing out possible problems in HZ's post such as repeated dual-reads/fence-sitting.
Hate this post for so many reasons. Too strongly worded in many places. No masking of intentions anywhere? So sure that HZ is town? One of AE and Az is "assuredly" scum? But he's not voting for either of us? He votes Dechs for changing his mind and frames that as some kind of cardinal sin, instead of asking what changed? He really likes Generic, and really dislikes Seppel, no reasoning provided? Despite being very suspicious of Seppel, that's all we get on him? He mentions the bit about rhand's over-aggression again, but seems to not be very committed to a read that was stronger than his read on Seppel at the time, supposedly. Not tracking very well here, at all.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Also hate that Generic is trying to whip a completely baseless alignment dichotomy out of his butt over early-game banter.
As of end of page 9:
Hard Town
Azrael - Obv
emo_pinata - excellent analysis, highly natural, inquisitive
Archmage Eternal - Excellent, natural responses to HZ when provoked.
Arianrhod - So far, natural impressions. Low number of posts, but those there are, are good.
Huntzilla - A bit of posturing tells that disturbed me, but overall, he's been pretty honest and willing to discuss his mindset.
Weakly Town
Killjoy - KJ hasn't negatively pinged me. I think he's processing from a town perspective, although there aren't any flaming sky letters to assure me of that.
Dechs Kaison - A few things spook me about Dechs, mainly the repeat performance on the self-vote. But he's had some weak town tells as wells, such as the soft-claim.
Seppel - Attempting to self-clear using PM formatting. No strong behavioral indicators as of yet.
Null
Rhand - Rhand isn't making much of an impression on me, at all.
Weak Scum
Kamikaze Archon - Level of activity is somewhat truncated - short posts, limited breadth of topics. Can sometimes be a style of posting that scum use as a crutch.
Scum -
Generic - He's being repeatedly over-aggressive, manufacturing poor reasons for suspicion. I think he's trying to be viewed as having a town-on-town fight with Seppel, for the sake of generating credit. Meanwhile, he isn't sharing reads on most of the town at large.
Plowshares - Plowshares is scum. He's too certain of many of his reads without adequate justification, and the way he describes his reads and thoughts repeatedly doesn't match well with the actions he's taking in thread. There are a lot of shallow, half-hearted attacks thrown in there, and his one or two town-reads are unexplained.
Unvote
Quick reads: I'm liking Az more for scum than AE, and e_p is likely his buddy. Don't want to be voting until I can do some further analysis.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos