As I understand it, silver rage is when scum complains about not being able to do something that would make them seem townie, especially by being beaten to the punch, e.g.:
Player A: <scummy statement>
Player B: Your statement is bad because <reasons>
Player C (scum): Damn it player B, I was going to point that out!
The one thing about the Tan wagon is that there hasn't been any push against it. Like, everyone's just fine with lynching him.
I'm a bit hesitant to use that as a reasoning that points to town as I've seen that erroneously clear scum. Remember Too Many Heads? My early day one wagon went to L-1 with no drawback at all until I thought I'd been hammered and threw a fit allowing for people to get paranoid.
When someone influential makes a case that seems sound, scum sometimes cut their losses and bus to look good. And then when it's on town, well.
As I understand it, silver rage is when scum complains about not being able to do something that would make them seem townie, especially by being beaten to the punch, e.g.:
Player A: <scummy statement>
Player B: Your statement is bad because <reasons>
Player C (scum): Damn it player B, I was going to point that out!
The one thing about the Tan wagon is that there hasn't been any push against it. Like, everyone's just fine with lynching him.
I'm a bit hesitant to use that as a reasoning that points to town as I've seen that erroneously clear scum. Remember Too Many Heads? My early day one wagon went to L-1 with no drawback at all until I thought I'd been hammered and threw a fit allowing for people to get paranoid.
When someone influential makes a case that seems sound, scum sometimes cut their losses and bus to look good. And then when it's on town, well.
I don't disagree, but your wagon day one was pushed back pretty much solely on those concerns(& mollie's amazon anti-pirate crusade), vs here where a lot of people are getting cold feet while the wagon continues to go.
And the cold feet are on the names I trust/respect too.
Okay so now that I know that the differences in ways people treated the miller claim or how they treated the miller claim doesn't conform to my expectations, I can cross wheat_grinder off my suspect list from that.
But I still didn't like the reactions and interactions of Sir Karn, Black Vise and Rai. I liked Sir Karn's point later about treating the miller claim based on behavior, but I still don't get how he thought Hooker could be doing a *****ty gambit. I didn't like BlackVise's suggestion that Hooker was backtracking on a gambit because it felt similar in vein to Karn's accusations. Rai just sounded like he was trying to sound protown about the whole thing, and wasn't sure how he should treat it and sound town in the process.
I do find Tanarin's ignoring me suspicious but I'm still holding out hope he will interact and I'll have a better feel there. I don't bite, promise!
Hsnsanator not posting on anything in the game except Hooker is problematic; I don't find the scum won't doubt the mod-confirmed thing.
I think town are in Hooker, duh, Kitty, probably Cythare and Rhand. Oh I kinda like Lngr too because I just want to give him a hug and that's how I felt about him in the Wizards game he played in at MS.
The one thing about the Tan wagon is that there hasn't been any push against it. Like, everyone's just fine with lynching him.
Archer Mafia was pretty much exactly the same. Antny's Day 1 wagon had almost exactly the same level of pushback (Pretty much 1 guy saying no, and at most a few others saying hold up a sec).
#178, LnG: A hunch eh? I think I understand what you’re trying to say.
#183, DCIII: I didn’t stop to think about Tan’s post in that way — in retrospect, I agree.
#185, BlackVise: There’s a difference between minimalism — not saying a lot, posting infrequently — and simply not commenting on anything. I suppose my point is that there was quite a lot going on, and with your first post you left a plethora of topics on the table and we don’t know your thought(s) on them.
Perhaps gambit wasn't quite the word to use, but I figured that HP may be claiming to avoid being lynched right now. Her post about potential repercussions then seemed as thought she realized that her choice of role would actually have the complete opposite effect and was trying to backtrack.
HP wasn’t even under pressure when she claimed IC? This makes no sense.
Unvote; Vote: BlackVise
#186, Wildfire: It takes 10 seconds to figure out which page your post(s) are on. It would be page 5 for Posts 110,113, and 115. I’m not going to quote two dozen posts in a single post when I’m doing a big catch up post.
And I still want responses from Posts 113 and 115.
* The fence-sitty post #51 doesn't sit well with me.
And this is just crazy. Why should anyone have a strong read one way or the other 51 posts into the game? Especially in regards to a claimed miller! Bur's cautious, skeptical view of the situation is exactly what he should be feeling!
And to finally answer your question, I actually really like the questions Bur has been asking. Him trying to get you and WG to support your reads is anything but a point against him, and later, I felt that when he turned his attention to Rai and Cantrip, those where good signs of actual scum hunting. And to a smaller extent, I feel like his thoughts regarding the HP situation were more likely town (such as being concerned about whether we lose a lynch in testing).
Yes and no. It's unlikely that someone would have a strong opinion about another player at this stage, but the language that was used stood out. "I'll give her a pass, for now" is a really scummy way to say "I don't have a read on her". It comes across as an attempt to try to appeal to other players' townreads while leaving a door open to pursue it later rather than just saying "it's too early for me to have a read on her (him)".
Re: the questions Bur has been asking:
-Clarifying TMCT is a cat
-2x "elaborate on Arian read"
-Why would HP vote for herself
-2x clarification on HP's ability
-Question to Rai uses an incorrect premise
-Question to Cantrip is a rehash of what has already been asked
None of those seem particularly compelling to me.
/barn
I’ll finish pages 9 to current Saturday.
@Mod/All: My GRE exam is in two weeks so I’ll be the same semi-activity until its over. I’m finishing the math portion of the prep (the hardest) come Sunday, so I’ll be somewhat more active next week than I currently am.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
But forgetting who absolutely can't be scum?
If everyone disagrees with this I am probably wrong about it, but it just seems so obviously a slip to me.
I've definitely forgotten who cleared players were, especially when there were many still alive. I'm not holding that against him.
Meh, I'm not sure what this means now. Would the mod give the exact same role PM to both a scum and a town to prevent us from flavorgaming? Or does it mean Tanarin is town?
It could be the standard vanilla flavor (regardless of alignment), or it could be a provided safe claim, or as you said, it could be like a silent neighbor pairing. We can't count on it to tell us anything either way, which means we are left with solely his behavior.
I would like to wait until Tanarin is back from V/LA, and I want him to give us a full rundown of reads.
I'm actually against this. If finishing the lynch takes that long, that's fine of course, I don't want to rush it -but I'd also rather not intentionally slow the game just for this, which is unlikely to be of any use anyway. -If Tan had more to say, I think he would have included it with his claim (he didn't even bother attempting to refute the contradiction). I feel like he's resigned to his fate here.
And since we're in position to make a high percentage D1 lynch with minimal collateral damage, I really don't want to risk us getting distracted by just waiting around.
My comment on wagon speed wasn't so much about Tanarin's alignment - more about getting sufficient info out there before a lynch. In particular, if we're wrong and it turns out he's town, having his last set of reads would be useful. I think it's reasonable to wait a couple of days to hedge against that case.
EBWOP, didn't see KCC's post:
I would agree with you if we were already in a long Day. But it's been less than a week for a Day 1 in a Specialty-level game. I think we're fine.
Of course, I might be biased because I'm going to be V/LA over roughly the same timeframe, so it has less of an effect on me.
@All of the people who asked me the exact same question many posts ago: The answer is yes.
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If Tan flips scum, KCC is my new favorite. I think that the case is quite good; the only thing giving me cold feet is the fact that Rhand claims to have the exact same flavor as Tan. Somebody suggested that Tan could have been provided fake flavor, but then why would the fake flavor also exist in a real role? I'd assume the provided flavor would be unique. I'd like it if this was discussed a bit more
If Tan flips town, I think that Karn is likely scum. The way he has been advocating against Tan's lynch reminds me of what I did D1 of Celestial mafia as scum. Most of the people in the game thought that AI was scum, but I--knowing that he couldn't be scum--said that I thought he was town so that I would be right when he flipped. Because he hasn't really been providing a strong argument to defend Tan, I get the sense that this might be a similar scenario, now especially considering how Tan's flavor matches Rhand's.
192 in particular, the sarcasm at the front of the post feels so... unnecessary and fake.
Then she goes on to say "well I checked MY TOWN ROLE PM and I don't see the same thing as you."
- Not only is she saying in big bold letters "HEY EVERYONE I HAVE A TOWN ROLE PM! BELIEVE ME!" but she also goes on to cast doubt on Rhand and makes it sound like she thinks Rhand is scummy, just after acknowledging and saying "I know you looked at your town role pm and saw something, but I looked at my town role pm and didn't." - the key point being, she makes Rhand out to be scummy after noting and believing that Rhand looked at a town role pm.
Unvote.
Vote: Kitty
From what I've gathered so far, KCC appears to be a very strong, experienced player, and this post seems like Karn is trying to discredit him before he gets a lot of momentum and support.
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I really don't like Rai's vote:
@KCC: Where did I ever say I wanted the miller dead? You seem to like throwing words in my mouth. All I ever said on the issue is that it is self resolving and that the vig will either vig him or he is scum. I have not once said "vig kill him" or anything like that. I can't control his actions nor can I predict what will happen. All I can state is my mindset when I made that statement (One I still feel is true.)
Simpler words: I am basically going to look for scum elsewhere unless Arian starts acting scummy.
Also Unvote as I was writing my post to tammy when Rax posted his confirmation.
It does not explicitly say you wanted the vig dead, but rather than figure out the issue, you want the vig issue to resolve itself. That seems at least to my limited mafia experience a bad idea and seems like you are hiding something. Couple that with other actions on your part that others have brought up, I am fine with lynching you.
Vote Tanarin.
He says exactly what others before him had already said about Tan, and uses that as his reason for voting. The major issue I have with it is the part where he says "couple that with other actions on your part that others have brought up." The rationale that he gave WAS what others pointed out and his vague addition seems to be masking that.
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It could be nothing, but I don't feel good about lng. This post in particular:
Iso, Arian and Megs are my biggest town reads, so I'm fine sheeping them for now until I get a better idea of the gamestate.
Kinda tenuous, but it caught my attention. If lng eventually flips scum, I would be relatively sure that DC, Cythare, Rhand, and KCC are all town, if I didn't already think that.
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Regarding my earlier stance on Bur: Now that I've read all of the posts, I can't tell if it's genuine scum or just noob. Some posts feel really scummy, then others are just really bad.
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Besides HP, my biggest town reads are KCC and Tammy.
Regardless of Tan's flip, KCC has seemed super genuine in his case, so I think that is a strong indication that he's town.
While many of Tammy's post have been rather ramble-y, I do like many of the underlying points that she has made.
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I can verify what Wheat said about Antny. I was the one who said no, and was town.
Rhand... why did you reveal that? We could have used that to possibly nail scum claiming vanilla. Although, scum vanillas could have the same flavor to discourage flavorgaming.
Karn: is that quality the only one of Tan's you find redeeming? That's a weak case for town if it is.
I agree with Archon about the hans post. I also agree with hans about KCC.
Lol at Arian's "If VTs are redshirts I love Rax". /barn.
Random thought: Not sure I like Cyth correcting the mod on the votecount. Most people don't track other people's votes very well, I don't think. Hell there are days I don't even remember where I have my vote.
I like KCC's case on Tan, and it prompted an ISO of Tan. I think he's overly aggressive/hostile this game. Unvote, Vote Tanarin
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
FWIW, Redshirt was the vanilla town flavor in the last ST:MU game. I should know, I was one. There was even a fun moment D1 when Seppel fake-claimed redshirt and got caught because his claim didn't match.
Rhand... why did you reveal that? We could have used that to possibly nail scum claiming vanilla. Although, scum vanillas could have the same flavor to discourage flavorgaming.
Because it didn't occur to me that ALL vanilla's might have the same flavor :/
A few points of clarity from your questions to me - I didn't "change the goal posts on you" you asked me what I meant by "felt obliged" with my read on your post. Your language seemed annoyed but it didn't seem linked with your suspicion. It felt to me like you were frustrated with Tan's play (because, IMO, if you think some one is scummy, you aren't often frustrated with their scummy behavior because it's allowing you to catch them. Typically frustration would crop up if other people didn't believe you or you thought the person was getting away with scummy behavior, which wasn't the case with Tan) and a lot of your language in those responses was more indignant than it was focusing on the conclusion that you eventually got to that his response to you wasn't honest - which I think is a point that would normally draw a "this person is scum" conclusion.
You say that I didn't question you about your Wildfire/Wheat point, but you also didn't offer it. It would have made sense for you to just say what it was there if you were open to doing so at the time. Most of the time when people say they had a reason but don't give it, that's intentional... they aren't waiting for the formality of the person asking the question (or, in your case, waiting for that person to respond to you). So my reiterating my suspicion of that point was telling you that I wasn't satisfied with your answer and still found that point suspicious (which is a point that I thought you'd respond to).
I wasn't voting for you because you still weren't among those I was most suspicious of - like Tan, Rai, Cantrip (and Black Vise then, though I don't think Black Vise and Cantrip are likely scum together and I think it more likely that Cantrip is scum).
I didn't like your immediate reaction to my response - but your "trifecta of scum tells" line in response felt natural and I am also thinking that if HP says that you're good as scum, that I feel like you'd be a little more calculated than to make a post like that in an environment that is less familiar with your play.
Since, I also like your follow through on Karn re: KCC.
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I have a scum lean on Karn now. I didn't like his point on KCC and I really didn't like his being overly dismissive of the Tan case. The "I don't see what you're going on about regarding Tan" is off considering there's been plenty written about why there's suspicion around him and he could easily engage with what it is about those points he doesn't like.
Tan/Rai/Cantrip/Karn/Kamikaze <-- That feels pretty good.
I have a lot of pretty strong town reads right now, also - KCC, Cythare, Bur, Wheat, Rhand, Arian, Wildfire - and HP
If all VT have similar roles I have to imagine scum have it too so that they can properly fakeclaim.
I would recommend not saying anything if you are a VT unless you have a different role flavor. If it's different then Tan is scum. If it's the same then my first line of this post holds and Tan is still scum. Saying anything just tells scum you aren't a PR.
Random thought: Not sure I like Cyth correcting the mod on the votecount. Most people don't track other people's votes very well, I don't think. Hell there are days I don't even remember where I have my vote.
I do this in every game. FTR, you weren't voting anyone before you unvoted.
But forgetting who absolutely can't be scum?
If everyone disagrees with this I am probably wrong about it, but it just seems so obviously a slip to me.
I've definitely forgotten who cleared players were, especially when there were many still alive. I'm not holding that against him.
Meh, I'm not sure what this means now. Would the mod give the exact same role PM to both a scum and a town to prevent us from flavorgaming? Or does it mean Tanarin is town?
It could be the standard vanilla flavor (regardless of alignment), or it could be a provided safe claim, or as you said, it could be like a silent neighbor pairing. We can't count on it to tell us anything either way, which means we are left with solely his behavior.
I would like to wait until Tanarin is back from V/LA, and I want him to give us a full rundown of reads.
I'm actually against this. If finishing the lynch takes that long, that's fine of course, I don't want to rush it -but I'd also rather not intentionally slow the game just for this, which is unlikely to be of any use anyway. -If Tan had more to say, I think he would have included it with his claim (he didn't even bother attempting to refute the contradiction). I feel like he's resigned to his fate here.
And since we're in position to make a high percentage D1 lynch with minimal collateral damage, I really don't want to risk us getting distracted by just waiting around.
If Tan flips scum, KCC is my new favorite. I think that the case is quite good; the only thing giving me cold feet is the fact that Rhand claims to have the exact same flavor as Tan. Somebody suggested that Tan could have been provided fake flavor, but then why would the fake flavor also exist in a real role? I'd assume the provided flavor would be unique. I'd like it if this was discussed a bit more
Iso, Arian and Megs are my biggest town reads, so I'm fine sheeping them for now until I get a better idea of the gamestate.
Kinda tenuous, but it caught my attention. If lng eventually flips scum, I would be relatively sure that DC, Cythare, Rhand, and KCC are all town, if I didn't already think that.
Didn't catch this before, but it's worth paying attention to.
Didn't really have internet yesterday, so catching up on quite a few pages now.
Re: voting Tammy instead of Tanarin - I saw something that stood out to me and voted it. I wanted to see what would happen. I'm pretty satisfied with Tammy's response, so I'm willing to drop it for now. Unvote. I intend to Vote Tanarin, but I don't want to put him at L-1 yet (and I believe he's L-2 at the moment). I'd like to see him come back and defend himself.
Re: iRebel - So now you want me to chase down your post asking questions in addition to finding my own?
Quote from iRebel »
#113, Wildfire: Enlighten us.
#115, Wildfire: I’m confused by this post. Can you explain what you were trying to say because my head spins whenever I read it.
Quote from 113 »
Perhaps. It was something that had caught my eye that had not yet been discussed.
This was in direct response to Cythare in a conversation there. Cyth says that the RVS + Silver Rage thing isn't the most telling from Cantrip's post, I say that the combination seems awkward at best, he says it still seems like the weakest reason, and I'm saying that that may be the case, but the stronger reasons have already been discussed. I don't really know what your question is here.
Quote from 115 »
Assume HP is gambiting scum. We "test" the claim and lynch her. What have we lost? Town PRs maybe have a slightly harder time picking out people to protect/shoot/cop/track/whatever, but the scum also have a harder time picking out PRs to NK. We go into tomorrow likely -1 scum -1 VT, which is overall a good situation.
This was in response to Cantrip's post that we should delay testing Hooker's claim, so that we can foster more discussion in case Hooker is lying scum, so we don't go into the night blind. I'm simply pointing out that, were that the case, it would not be the end of the world.
Hypothetical and worst-case scenario analysis is something I do a fair amount of.
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#51, Bur: This answer to Tanarin was wholly unsatisfying. If you would have done the same thing, shouldn’t you have a generally positive opinion towards Arianrhod? What were you hoping to gain/figure out by asking others how they reached their conclusion on him?
Vote: Bur
I would like this line of questioning more if it hadn't already been asked of him.
#90, Cantrip: Why the random arbitrary statistical figure? If its “probably the right play” to test HPs claim, then why does it matter when it happens?
I agree with this, but don't like that you're asking questions/commenting more specifically about things that seem relatively minor and just providing flat statements of dislike for things that seem voteworthy.
#159, KCC: I agree that Tanarin is giving weird vibes but why do you dislike him more than Rai? When I look at #77 I don’t see anything particularly good or useful from it, and that 77 posts in there was plenty to comment on.
I want to lynch: Rai, Tanarin
I’m okay lynching: Bur, Wildfire
I’d rather not lynch: Cantripmancer, DCIII, Arianrhod, Sir Karn, Tammy
I refuse to lynch: Wheat, Cythare, KCC, TMCT, HP.
Null: Rhand, Kamikaze, Hans, BlackVise, LnG, Killjoy
Based on the tone of the rest of this, I'm not sure why BlackVise is still in your null pile.
TL;DR: I feel like there is overcommenting here to have it look like there are a lot of responses (more noticeable since a lot of the items here are left in despite already being addressed), not enough of the comments feel like they're on people iRebel seems to want to lynch, and some soft lobs rather than actual questions in places that could have warranted questioning. Leaning scum based on this post, but he also has another post, so let's look at that too.
#183, DCIII: I didn’t stop to think about Tan’s post in that way — in retrospect, I agree.
Agree but you still want to move in a different direction? You already had Tanarin in your "want to lynch" pile, this is additional indication that you agree with a Tanarin lynch, but, well, see below.
#185, BlackVise: There’s a difference between minimalism — not saying a lot, posting infrequently — and simply not commenting on anything. I suppose my point is that there was quite a lot going on, and with your first post you left a plethora of topics on the table and we don’t know your thought(s) on them.
Perhaps gambit wasn't quite the word to use, but I figured that HP may be claiming to avoid being lynched right now. Her post about potential repercussions then seemed as thought she realized that her choice of role would actually have the complete opposite effect and was trying to backtrack.
HP wasn’t even under pressure when she claimed IC? This makes no sense.
Unvote; Vote: BlackVise
You listed Rai and Tanarin as your "want to lynch" group - how does BV fit in in this context? The timing of this also feels suspect. You've expressed clear interest in lynching Tanarin, yet you vote counter to it at a critical time.
#186, Wildfire: It takes 10 seconds to figure out which page your post(s) are on. It would be page 5 for Posts 110,113, and 115. I’m not going to quote two dozen posts in a single post when I’m doing a big catch up post.
* The fence-sitty post #51 doesn't sit well with me.
And this is just crazy. Why should anyone have a strong read one way or the other 51 posts into the game? Especially in regards to a claimed miller! Bur's cautious, skeptical view of the situation is exactly what he should be feeling!
And to finally answer your question, I actually really like the questions Bur has been asking. Him trying to get you and WG to support your reads is anything but a point against him, and later, I felt that when he turned his attention to Rai and Cantrip, those where good signs of actual scum hunting. And to a smaller extent, I feel like his thoughts regarding the HP situation were more likely town (such as being concerned about whether we lose a lynch in testing).
Yes and no. It's unlikely that someone would have a strong opinion about another player at this stage, but the language that was used stood out. "I'll give her a pass, for now" is a really scummy way to say "I don't have a read on her". It comes across as an attempt to try to appeal to other players' townreads while leaving a door open to pursue it later rather than just saying "it's too early for me to have a read on her (him)".
Re: the questions Bur has been asking:
-Clarifying TMCT is a cat
-2x "elaborate on Arian read"
-Why would HP vote for herself
-2x clarification on HP's ability
-Question to Rai uses an incorrect premise
-Question to Cantrip is a rehash of what has already been asked
None of those seem particularly compelling to me.
/barn
Has your read of Bur changed, or is he still in your "leaning scum" pile?
This post reinforces my lean scum read. It feels like he's supporting the Tanarin wagon but avoiding supporting it - to the point of voting multiple others that are not a wagon over it. If he had not agreed with the Tanarin wagon, fine. But that's not the case, and it feels like an avoidance rather than a desire to have more discussion.
@iRebel: Please read through as there are some questions for you in the spoilers.
@Cythare, are you paying attention to what I have said? Just red it again; it's pretty simple. If scum had false claims in the last game, they probably have them here. If not, then Tanarin is likely town. Pretty simple.
@Cythare, are you paying attention to what I have said? Just red it again; it's pretty simple. If scum had false claims in the last game, they probably have them here. If not, then Tanarin is likely town. Pretty simple.
@Cythare, are you paying attention to what I have said? Just red it again; it's pretty simple. If scum had false claims in the last game, they probably have them here. If not, then Tanarin is likely town. Pretty simple.
I read it and understand the logic. I didn't like that you unvote and then ask others, rather than checking yourself. It provides you the opportunity to get off the wagon prior to said confirmation and potentially not hop back on. I'll be looking into you more closely if Tanarin flips town.
To clear up the goon/vt question, STMUII only had redshirt flavor for VTs. There was only one scum goon, and that player had specific flavor. Of note, the VTs in STMUII also were only named "Redshirt", not "<Name>, Redshirt".
@Cythare: Okay. I hadn't thought much of it until you made a post commenting about how scum like townhunting, and it occurred to me that that was basically exactly what iRebel was doing.
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Still fine with the Tanarin lynch. I'll busy this weekend (as per my usual, as those who have played with me before know), so I'll post my reads at this point in case the wagon concludes and I get vigged overNight. Ordered by section but no real order within the sections exists.
conftown/self
HookerPunch (Jean-Luc Picard, Town Enterprise Captain/innocent child) -- modconfirmed town. Nothing to say here.
Arianrhod -- /wave
strong townreads
Cythare -- clear voice & mindset, effort, opinions align with my own
Rhand -- confrontational as I've come to expect of town!Rhand. scum!Rhand is almost too friendly...town!Rhand is aggressive. This is town!Rhand.
Kittycupcake -- good point on Tanarin, leading the wagon and interested in not letting it stall. Even if town!Tan, actively looking at mindsets and solving the game
leaning town
Hansanator -- as others have noted, very good posts so far. This feels like a lategame town!Hans without all the bull***** on D1-3.
Killjoy -- Mostly meta/soul read.
Wheat_Grinder -- See above.
null trending town
DCIII -- More like Celestial DCIII than Xymande DCIII.
Tammy -- I feel like I'm watching myself play.
null
The Most Curious Thing -- questioning meowing sounds. Seriously, not sure how he can really contribute content with that restriction.
KamikazeArchon -- haven't seen anything one way or the other to make me think anything so far
Wildfire393 -- same. looks like Celestial Wildfire, but I was scumreading Celestial Wildfire for a good part of that game, so....who knows.
Cantripmancer -- Hit a bad spot in life, abstaining from any opinions on those grounds.
Rai Kerensky -- No opinion formed at this point.
null trending scum
Sir Karn -- mostly a gut read. I haven't liked his reactions to the game so far, but I can't put anything solid down as to why
LnGrrrR -- as others have noted, this looks like Celestial Lng.
scumreads:
iRebel -- as noted in conversation with Cythare
Bur -- didn't like his initial lines of questioning. Probably my weakest scumread, but I literally haven't liked anything he's posted so far.
BlackVise -- Made a horrible post, then went v/la and disappeared under pressure.
Tanarin -- others have expressed this far better than I can (notably KCC). I agree with the points and like those on the wagon enough to /barn.
Tan has been putting in work, and making sizable posts that don't just feel like as so many scum are akin to do.
He has real content in his posts, whether you care about his subject matter (or agree with it) or not, the way he is presenting it is town.
Tan has been putting in work, and making sizable posts that don't just feel like as so many scum are akin to do.
He has real content in his posts, whether you care about his subject matter (or agree with it) or not, the way he is presenting it is town.
Just because they put effort into their posts does not mean they are not scum.
Tan has been putting in work, and making sizable posts that don't just feel like as so many scum are akin to do.
He has real content in his posts, whether you care about his subject matter (or agree with it) or not, the way he is presenting it is town.
Just because they put effort into their posts does not mean they are not scum.
Karn: What do you think about the several places that people have pointed out inconsistencies in his posts that would more easily come from a scum mindset than a town one?
LnG: Do you truly believe that the mod has followed a strict formula from one STMU game to the next? I feel like there are almost certainly twists on the formula to keep us on our toes, as well as potentially changes made just based on his experience with his previous games to improve the overall quality of the game. Providing the scum team with reliable fake claims could certainly fall in either category.
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Tan has been putting in work, and making sizable posts that don't just feel like as so many scum are akin to do.
He has real content in his posts, whether you care about his subject matter (or agree with it) or not, the way he is presenting it is town.
Just because they put effort into their posts does not mean they are not scum.
That's not what I said.
You are saying that Tan has content to his posts, and that scum do not put much content in there posts. While you do say that you think his content makes him Town, you still leave the correlation that content = Town.
Tan has been putting in work, and making sizable posts that don't just feel like as so many scum are akin to do.
He has real content in his posts, whether you care about his subject matter (or agree with it) or not, the way he is presenting it is town.
Just because they put effort into their posts does not mean they are not scum.
That's not what I said.
You are saying that Tan has content to his posts, and that scum do not put much content in there posts. While you do say that you think his content makes him Town, you still leave the correlation that content = Town.
He has addressed multiple people in almost all of his posts with no fear of getting himself involved or noticed.
He has answered everything without vagueness as far as I can tell.
One can clearly follow his train of thought, which lets his mindset shine through his posts, and that is townie.
---
As for KittyCupCake, I don't know why you all are letting her slide.
As for the miller, well hopefully that works itself out soon enough.
Unless you were using some alternate definition of "hopefully" that is unfamiliar to me, this clearly says that you want the Arian situation "worked out" AKA Arian dead.
As an added bonus it keeps him in check should he be scum trying a miller gambit on us, as if he tries to fake claim any info that us as a town knows can only be town associated, we string him up.
@bolded: Ewwww
She's pushing for a quicklynch before Tanarin can even come back from his V/LA:
I would like to wait until Tanarin is back from V/LA, and I want him to give us a full rundown of reads.
I'm actually against this. If finishing the lynch takes that long, that's fine of course, I don't want to rush it -but I'd also rather not intentionally slow the game just for this, which is unlikely to be of any use anyway. -If Tan had more to say, I think he would have included it with his claim (he didn't even bother attempting to refute the contradiction). I feel like he's resigned to his fate here.
And since we're in position to make a high percentage D1 lynch with minimal collateral damage, I really don't want to risk us getting distracted by just waiting around.
Sidenote: If Tammy ever flips scum, Kitty is a buddy:
As for Tammy, post 244 definitely reads as self-conscious and over-explanatory, but I doubt it's alignment related. The focus of it makes me believe it's caused by discomfort in this new environment which she is still adapting to. I'll keep an eye on that, but I'm still leaning town here.
192 in particular, the sarcasm at the front of the post feels so... unnecessary and fake.
Then she goes on to say "well I checked MY TOWN ROLE PM and I don't see the same thing as you."
- Not only is she saying in big bold letters "HEY EVERYONE I HAVE A TOWN ROLE PM! BELIEVE ME!" but she also goes on to cast doubt on Rhand and makes it sound like she thinks Rhand is scummy, just after acknowledging and saying "I know you looked at your town role pm and saw something, but I looked at my town role pm and didn't." - the key point being, she makes Rhand out to be scummy after noting and believing that Rhand looked at a town role pm.
Unvote.
Vote: Kitty
She also for some reason, even as the ELEVENTH person voting Hooker, felt like she needed to provide more explanation as to why she was voting Hooker:
@Tammy: I don't think HP was serious when suggesting possible downsides to the role; I feel like HP was just underestimating the usefulness of those abilities and was looking for unnecessary explanations for why it existed. There's no reason not to confirm HP here.
*Note: Though I'm leaning town on both Tammy and much more so HP, in the incredibly unlikely event that HP somehow flips scum here, kill Tammy immediately.
I really apologize, but I don't think I'm going to have the time to play this game for the foreseeable future, which sucks because it's shaping up to be an awesome game, but rather than try to hobble along, I'm going to go ahead and replace /out.
Sincere apologies, Annorax; hope it's not too hard to find a replacement.
Are you seriously saying you don't think there is an important distinction between "the miller is probably going to get vigged" and "hopefully, the miller gets vigged"? -Especially after Tan insisted he never said he wanted the miller to be vigged?
Can you list some other games you've played, ideally at least one town and scum game?
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Player A: <scummy statement>
Player B: Your statement is bad because <reasons>
Player C (scum): Damn it player B, I was going to point that out!
Player C is silver raging.
I'm a bit hesitant to use that as a reasoning that points to town as I've seen that erroneously clear scum. Remember Too Many Heads? My early day one wagon went to L-1 with no drawback at all until I thought I'd been hammered and threw a fit allowing for people to get paranoid.
When someone influential makes a case that seems sound, scum sometimes cut their losses and bus to look good. And then when it's on town, well.
Oh, huh. Thank you.
I don't disagree, but your wagon day one was pushed back pretty much solely on those concerns(& mollie's amazon anti-pirate crusade), vs here where a lot of people are getting cold feet while the wagon continues to go.
And the cold feet are on the names I trust/respect too.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
But I still didn't like the reactions and interactions of Sir Karn, Black Vise and Rai. I liked Sir Karn's point later about treating the miller claim based on behavior, but I still don't get how he thought Hooker could be doing a *****ty gambit. I didn't like BlackVise's suggestion that Hooker was backtracking on a gambit because it felt similar in vein to Karn's accusations. Rai just sounded like he was trying to sound protown about the whole thing, and wasn't sure how he should treat it and sound town in the process.
I do find Tanarin's ignoring me suspicious but I'm still holding out hope he will interact and I'll have a better feel there. I don't bite, promise!
Hsnsanator not posting on anything in the game except Hooker is problematic; I don't find the scum won't doubt the mod-confirmed thing.
I think town are in Hooker, duh, Kitty, probably Cythare and Rhand. Oh I kinda like Lngr too because I just want to give him a hug and that's how I felt about him in the Wizards game he played in at MS.
Archer Mafia was pretty much exactly the same. Antny's Day 1 wagon had almost exactly the same level of pushback (Pretty much 1 guy saying no, and at most a few others saying hold up a sec).
Antny flipped scum.
#178, LnG: A hunch eh? I think I understand what you’re trying to say.
#183, DCIII: I didn’t stop to think about Tan’s post in that way — in retrospect, I agree.
#185, BlackVise: There’s a difference between minimalism — not saying a lot, posting infrequently — and simply not commenting on anything. I suppose my point is that there was quite a lot going on, and with your first post you left a plethora of topics on the table and we don’t know your thought(s) on them.
HP wasn’t even under pressure when she claimed IC? This makes no sense.
Unvote; Vote: BlackVise
#186, Wildfire: It takes 10 seconds to figure out which page your post(s) are on. It would be page 5 for Posts 110,113, and 115. I’m not going to quote two dozen posts in a single post when I’m doing a big catch up post.
And I still want responses from Posts 113 and 115.
/barn
I’ll finish pages 9 to current Saturday.
@Mod/All: My GRE exam is in two weeks so I’ll be the same semi-activity until its over. I’m finishing the math portion of the prep (the hardest) come Sunday, so I’ll be somewhat more active next week than I currently am.
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It could be the standard vanilla flavor (regardless of alignment), or it could be a provided safe claim, or as you said, it could be like a silent neighbor pairing. We can't count on it to tell us anything either way, which means we are left with solely his behavior.
The other scum would have to be terrible (or incredibly overconfident) to try derailing such a clearcut lynch.
I'm actually against this. If finishing the lynch takes that long, that's fine of course, I don't want to rush it -but I'd also rather not intentionally slow the game just for this, which is unlikely to be of any use anyway. -If Tan had more to say, I think he would have included it with his claim (he didn't even bother attempting to refute the contradiction). I feel like he's resigned to his fate here.
And since we're in position to make a high percentage D1 lynch with minimal collateral damage, I really don't want to risk us getting distracted by just waiting around.
I would agree with you if we were already in a long Day. But it's been less than a week for a Day 1 in a Specialty-level game. I think we're fine.
Of course, I might be biased because I'm going to be V/LA over roughly the same timeframe, so it has less of an effect on me.
Do you disagree?
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If Tan flips scum, KCC is my new favorite. I think that the case is quite good; the only thing giving me cold feet is the fact that Rhand claims to have the exact same flavor as Tan. Somebody suggested that Tan could have been provided fake flavor, but then why would the fake flavor also exist in a real role? I'd assume the provided flavor would be unique. I'd like it if this was discussed a bit more
If Tan flips town, I think that Karn is likely scum. The way he has been advocating against Tan's lynch reminds me of what I did D1 of Celestial mafia as scum. Most of the people in the game thought that AI was scum, but I--knowing that he couldn't be scum--said that I thought he was town so that I would be right when he flipped. Because he hasn't really been providing a strong argument to defend Tan, I get the sense that this might be a similar scenario, now especially considering how Tan's flavor matches Rhand's.
From what I've gathered so far, KCC appears to be a very strong, experienced player, and this post seems like Karn is trying to discredit him before he gets a lot of momentum and support.
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I really don't like Rai's vote:
He says exactly what others before him had already said about Tan, and uses that as his reason for voting. The major issue I have with it is the part where he says "couple that with other actions on your part that others have brought up." The rationale that he gave WAS what others pointed out and his vague addition seems to be masking that.
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It could be nothing, but I don't feel good about lng. This post in particular:
Immediately reminded me of this post from Celestial mafia where lng was scum:
Kinda tenuous, but it caught my attention. If lng eventually flips scum, I would be relatively sure that DC, Cythare, Rhand, and KCC are all town, if I didn't already think that.
-----------------
Regarding my earlier stance on Bur: Now that I've read all of the posts, I can't tell if it's genuine scum or just noob. Some posts feel really scummy, then others are just really bad.
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Besides HP, my biggest town reads are KCC and Tammy.
Regardless of Tan's flip, KCC has seemed super genuine in his case, so I think that is a strong indication that he's town.
While many of Tammy's post have been rather ramble-y, I do like many of the underlying points that she has made.
Previous Mafia Experience:
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Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Karn, show me where Tanarin is figuring things out.
Summary:
I can verify what Wheat said about Antny. I was the one who said no, and was town.
Rhand... why did you reveal that? We could have used that to possibly nail scum claiming vanilla. Although, scum vanillas could have the same flavor to discourage flavorgaming.
Karn: is that quality the only one of Tan's you find redeeming? That's a weak case for town if it is.
I agree with Archon about the hans post. I also agree with hans about KCC.
Lol at Arian's "If VTs are redshirts I love Rax". /barn.
Random thought: Not sure I like Cyth correcting the mod on the votecount. Most people don't track other people's votes very well, I don't think. Hell there are days I don't even remember where I have my vote.
I like KCC's case on Tan, and it prompted an ISO of Tan. I think he's overly aggressive/hostile this game. Unvote, Vote Tanarin
Also the scum goons or only town vanilla's?
Why did you choose to respond to this but not to Cythare and Wheat who actually quoted your posts and said something about them?
Because it didn't occur to me that ALL vanilla's might have the same flavor :/
He only talked about the Miller claim, HP's confirmation and TMCT being Spot.
None of those will help us figure out who is scum.
Before we push through this lynch, could someone who has played/read the other Trek games confirm whether or not scum had access to fake claims?
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A few points of clarity from your questions to me - I didn't "change the goal posts on you" you asked me what I meant by "felt obliged" with my read on your post. Your language seemed annoyed but it didn't seem linked with your suspicion. It felt to me like you were frustrated with Tan's play (because, IMO, if you think some one is scummy, you aren't often frustrated with their scummy behavior because it's allowing you to catch them. Typically frustration would crop up if other people didn't believe you or you thought the person was getting away with scummy behavior, which wasn't the case with Tan) and a lot of your language in those responses was more indignant than it was focusing on the conclusion that you eventually got to that his response to you wasn't honest - which I think is a point that would normally draw a "this person is scum" conclusion.
You say that I didn't question you about your Wildfire/Wheat point, but you also didn't offer it. It would have made sense for you to just say what it was there if you were open to doing so at the time. Most of the time when people say they had a reason but don't give it, that's intentional... they aren't waiting for the formality of the person asking the question (or, in your case, waiting for that person to respond to you). So my reiterating my suspicion of that point was telling you that I wasn't satisfied with your answer and still found that point suspicious (which is a point that I thought you'd respond to).
I wasn't voting for you because you still weren't among those I was most suspicious of - like Tan, Rai, Cantrip (and Black Vise then, though I don't think Black Vise and Cantrip are likely scum together and I think it more likely that Cantrip is scum).
I didn't like your immediate reaction to my response - but your "trifecta of scum tells" line in response felt natural and I am also thinking that if HP says that you're good as scum, that I feel like you'd be a little more calculated than to make a post like that in an environment that is less familiar with your play.
Since, I also like your follow through on Karn re: KCC.
-----------------
I have a scum lean on Karn now. I didn't like his point on KCC and I really didn't like his being overly dismissive of the Tan case. The "I don't see what you're going on about regarding Tan" is off considering there's been plenty written about why there's suspicion around him and he could easily engage with what it is about those points he doesn't like.
Tan/Rai/Cantrip/Karn/Kamikaze <-- That feels pretty good.
I have a lot of pretty strong town reads right now, also - KCC, Cythare, Bur, Wheat, Rhand, Arian, Wildfire - and HP
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Kamikaze is probably town from the unvote/vote thing. That doesn't seem to me like something that scum would overlook.
I do this in every game. FTR, you weren't voting anyone before you unvoted.
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Can you clarify what this question was? Searching through the thread for this is a pain.
What aspect of this do you want discussed more?
Didn't catch this before, but it's worth paying attention to.
I also dislike how he stepped off the wagon:
I'm not sold yet, but it's worth keeping an eye on.
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There -is- a reason, but I would like for you to do it first. Saying my reasoning might ruin the results.
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Re: voting Tammy instead of Tanarin - I saw something that stood out to me and voted it. I wanted to see what would happen. I'm pretty satisfied with Tammy's response, so I'm willing to drop it for now. Unvote. I intend to Vote Tanarin, but I don't want to put him at L-1 yet (and I believe he's L-2 at the moment). I'd like to see him come back and defend himself.
Re: iRebel - So now you want me to chase down your post asking questions in addition to finding my own?
This was in direct response to Cythare in a conversation there. Cyth says that the RVS + Silver Rage thing isn't the most telling from Cantrip's post, I say that the combination seems awkward at best, he says it still seems like the weakest reason, and I'm saying that that may be the case, but the stronger reasons have already been discussed. I don't really know what your question is here.
This was in response to Cantrip's post that we should delay testing Hooker's claim, so that we can foster more discussion in case Hooker is lying scum, so we don't go into the night blind. I'm simply pointing out that, were that the case, it would not be the end of the world.
Hypothetical and worst-case scenario analysis is something I do a fair amount of.
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The redundancy of this is a little weird.
Null.
Ok?
Have you played with Wildfire before?
I'm not sure why this is the part of this you focused on.
I don't like that you're just commenting that you dislike Wildfire's posts without applying any pressure/asking any questions.
This is...awkward. HP had already been confirmed by this point.
I would like this line of questioning more if it hadn't already been asked of him.
I don't see the point of this.
Agreed, but it seems like you're pulling your punches.
Eh.
I feel like you are doing the exact opposite. You're overcommenting on things.
ok
I think this is weird.
ok thanks
ok thanks
Already asked, but ok...
He already addressed this.
I'm not sure what is confusing here.
I agree with this, but don't like that you're asking questions/commenting more specifically about things that seem relatively minor and just providing flat statements of dislike for things that seem voteworthy.
ok
wat
I'm a little confused by some of these choices of people.
This is a legitimate question (re: BV).
Based on the tone of the rest of this, I'm not sure why BlackVise is still in your null pile.
TL;DR: I feel like there is overcommenting here to have it look like there are a lot of responses (more noticeable since a lot of the items here are left in despite already being addressed), not enough of the comments feel like they're on people iRebel seems to want to lynch, and some soft lobs rather than actual questions in places that could have warranted questioning. Leaning scum based on this post, but he also has another post, so let's look at that too.
Agree but you still want to move in a different direction? You already had Tanarin in your "want to lynch" pile, this is additional indication that you agree with a Tanarin lynch, but, well, see below.
You listed Rai and Tanarin as your "want to lynch" group - how does BV fit in in this context? The timing of this also feels suspect. You've expressed clear interest in lynching Tanarin, yet you vote counter to it at a critical time.
This is not alignment-telling.
Also not alignment-telling.
Has your read of Bur changed, or is he still in your "leaning scum" pile?
This post reinforces my lean scum read. It feels like he's supporting the Tanarin wagon but avoiding supporting it - to the point of voting multiple others that are not a wagon over it. If he had not agreed with the Tanarin wagon, fine. But that's not the case, and it feels like an avoidance rather than a desire to have more discussion.
@iRebel: Please read through as there are some questions for you in the spoilers.
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Or a mafia goon
I'm so glad I'm finally able to say that instead of "gdi hans is being hans again"
Yes.
To clear up the goon/vt question, STMUII only had redshirt flavor for VTs. There was only one scum goon, and that player had specific flavor. Of note, the VTs in STMUII also were only named "Redshirt", not "<Name>, Redshirt".
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--------
Still fine with the Tanarin lynch. I'll busy this weekend (as per my usual, as those who have played with me before know), so I'll post my reads at this point in case the wagon concludes and I get vigged overNight. Ordered by section but no real order within the sections exists.
conftown/self
HookerPunch (Jean-Luc Picard, Town Enterprise Captain/innocent child) -- modconfirmed town. Nothing to say here.
Arianrhod -- /wave
strong townreads
Cythare -- clear voice & mindset, effort, opinions align with my own
Rhand -- confrontational as I've come to expect of town!Rhand. scum!Rhand is almost too friendly...town!Rhand is aggressive. This is town!Rhand.
Kittycupcake -- good point on Tanarin, leading the wagon and interested in not letting it stall. Even if town!Tan, actively looking at mindsets and solving the game
leaning town
Hansanator -- as others have noted, very good posts so far. This feels like a lategame town!Hans without all the bull***** on D1-3.
Killjoy -- Mostly meta/soul read.
Wheat_Grinder -- See above.
null trending town
DCIII -- More like Celestial DCIII than Xymande DCIII.
Tammy -- I feel like I'm watching myself play.
null
The Most Curious Thing -- questioning meowing sounds. Seriously, not sure how he can really contribute content with that restriction.
KamikazeArchon -- haven't seen anything one way or the other to make me think anything so far
Wildfire393 -- same. looks like Celestial Wildfire, but I was scumreading Celestial Wildfire for a good part of that game, so....who knows.
Cantripmancer -- Hit a bad spot in life, abstaining from any opinions on those grounds.
Rai Kerensky -- No opinion formed at this point.
null trending scum
Sir Karn -- mostly a gut read. I haven't liked his reactions to the game so far, but I can't put anything solid down as to why
LnGrrrR -- as others have noted, this looks like Celestial Lng.
scumreads:
iRebel -- as noted in conversation with Cythare
Bur -- didn't like his initial lines of questioning. Probably my weakest scumread, but I literally haven't liked anything he's posted so far.
BlackVise -- Made a horrible post, then went v/la and disappeared under pressure.
Tanarin -- others have expressed this far better than I can (notably KCC). I agree with the points and like those on the wagon enough to /barn.
He has real content in his posts, whether you care about his subject matter (or agree with it) or not, the way he is presenting it is town.
Just because they put effort into their posts does not mean they are not scum.
If that's the case (that other Treks didn't have false claims), I don't think the Tanarin lynch is a good idea.
I think BV is a better lynch.
Vote Blackvise
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That's not what I said.
LnG: Do you truly believe that the mod has followed a strict formula from one STMU game to the next? I feel like there are almost certainly twists on the formula to keep us on our toes, as well as potentially changes made just based on his experience with his previous games to improve the overall quality of the game. Providing the scum team with reliable fake claims could certainly fall in either category.
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I need to reread/skim the other two games to see the differences/similarities.
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You are saying that Tan has content to his posts, and that scum do not put much content in there posts. While you do say that you think his content makes him Town, you still leave the correlation that content = Town.
What content do you think makes him look town?
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I haven't seen anything scummy from him.
He has addressed multiple people in almost all of his posts with no fear of getting himself involved or noticed.
He has answered everything without vagueness as far as I can tell.
One can clearly follow his train of thought, which lets his mindset shine through his posts, and that is townie.
---
As for KittyCupCake, I don't know why you all are letting her slide.
*****ty wording-complaining posts like this:
She's pushing for a quicklynch before Tanarin can even come back from his V/LA:
Sidenote: If Tammy ever flips scum, Kitty is a buddy:
Can't forget this:
She also for some reason, even as the ELEVENTH person voting Hooker, felt like she needed to provide more explanation as to why she was voting Hooker:
Even more evidence of buddies with Tammy:
No?
I got the names flipped here.
That's ok.
I'm pretty sure you're not what I asked though because of your post on KCC.
Which means I really don't understand where you're coming from and that scares me because usually I do.
Sincere apologies, Annorax; hope it's not too hard to find a replacement.
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Can you list some other games you've played, ideally at least one town and scum game?