@Seppel - so what changed with your read on me? I'd like you to put some effort into an Iso read and if you disagree with what I've been saying, please tell me why. Also, what made you doubt your KJ read briefly and why are you sure he's scum now?
Things like this are making it hard for me to call you town:
Seriously. If you're town on the KJ wagon, wake up.
I can do an Iso read some time around D2 or D3. He's trying really hard to call himself confirmed town.
As for the doubting of the KJ read, I'm very susceptible to Appeal to Emotion. Nearly every time a claim comes up and someone's passionately in the hotseat, my brain goes straight to the Empathy Box and takes a stone.
#357 is the reason I'm sold he's scum: town doesn't forget scumslips.
#389 is using emotions on Chris and since then he befriended him.
#185 he calls Cythare scum for attacking someone he thinks is scum because "that ship is already sinking". Why would someone be scum for trying to get scum lynched? That's dishonest. Feels as if AI forgot that he called Wildfire scum and grasps at straws to defend his Cythare scumread.
Those 3 are the worst ^^
Funny, those were the ones that I felt were most shrugworthy.
Then why aren't you trying to change my mind? My thoughts are out there. If they're wrong, show me why.
@Seppel - so what changed with your read on me? I'd like you to put some effort into an Iso read and if you disagree with what I've been saying, please tell me why. Also, what made you doubt your KJ read briefly and why are you sure he's scum now?
Things like this are making it hard for me to call you town:
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
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2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
#357 is the reason I'm sold he's scum: town doesn't forget scumslips.
#389 is using emotions on Chris and since then he befriended him.
#185 he calls Cythare scum for attacking someone he thinks is scum because "that ship is already sinking". Why would someone be scum for trying to get scum lynched? That's dishonest. Feels as if AI forgot that he called Wildfire scum and grasps at straws to defend his Cythare scumread.
Those 3 are the worst ^^
Funny, those were the ones that I felt were most shrugworthy.
Then why aren't you trying to change my mind? My thoughts are out there. If they're wrong, show me why.
AI is acting like apathetic town. I don't see how you can find scumminess in him.
@Seppel - so what changed with your read on me? I'd like you to put some effort into an Iso read and if you disagree with what I've been saying, please tell me why. Also, what made you doubt your KJ read briefly and why are you sure he's scum now?
Things like this are making it hard for me to call you town:
#357 is the reason I'm sold he's scum: town doesn't forget scumslips.
#389 is using emotions on Chris and since then he befriended him.
#185 he calls Cythare scum for attacking someone he thinks is scum because "that ship is already sinking". Why would someone be scum for trying to get scum lynched? That's dishonest. Feels as if AI forgot that he called Wildfire scum and grasps at straws to defend his Cythare scumread.
Those 3 are the worst ^^
Funny, those were the ones that I felt were most shrugworthy.
Then why aren't you trying to change my mind? My thoughts are out there. If they're wrong, show me why.
AI is acting like apathetic town. I don't see how you can find scumminess in him.
Long story short I spent yesterday morning in the ER and was on meds/sleeping all day and didn't touch a computer. I'm fine now and read the last few pages.
I'll try and read AI/Killjoy right now and weigh in, but I THINK HP was the hammer already? Sparse vote counts are sparse.
Off the top of my head, just from the following of the thread I did before I replaced in here are some thoughts before rereading anything:
Wildfire - Looks like his town game to me. The things Megs was calling him scummy for in the early game look like my exact reactions to him the first couple games we played together. Although I haven't seen him as scum so not sure if he does the same thing. I wouldn't worry about him until later though.
Karn - This seems to be Karn's current town meta. Intentionally don't do anything to look bad and survive the early game. I hate it and it sucks, but just coming off a game where I read him as town early, this feels the same.
DCIII - I need to read a couple of his longer posts in more detail, but I have felt like there is good reasoning behind his posts and his logic on Iso makes sense to me. I also haven't played with DCIII, but is going after a strong player (Iso) without anyone else really supporting it something he would do as scum?
Rhand - Looks like town Rhand to me. He's being fairly aggressive, asking questions and doing some analysis.
rezombied - Is this how this guy plays? Really haven't liked him thus far.
AI - The only detail I remember is some back and forth with Iso where Iso basically says all AI is doing is ad hom. I really need to reread him as it seems like he is surviving toDay. His wagon has more of my town reads on it though, which is something.
KJ - The fact that he was at L-1 for so long looks pretty bad for him when multiple people were begging for the hammer. Is most of scum on him? Most of scum afraid to hammer despite knowing there will be almost no respite? Is the scum team all inactive and not around to hammer?
His claim is moot as it's the only role we know and roles are random anyway. His idea of using the role to hide vit as pro-town despite it bring the person closer to death is interesting. Like I guess I don't really see scum claiming that role and then justifying it in that way. He would have to know he would catch flack for it and I feel like he is being honest.
His vote on the opposing AI wagon looks pretty bad. If I remember correctly he wasn't doing any scumhunting until his wagon started and then just bandwagoned on AI without much reasoning, but I should really reread him before being sure about that. Like, the only scumhunting I recall him doing is making a case on AI after he already voted him and it was clear he was the opposing wagon for toDay.
The main thing that gives me pause on KJ, is I am coming off a game in which he got mislynched as town power and his play here doesn't look unlike that game.
Still think KJ is scum, but more than that I am growing more certain that AI is just absurd town. Or he could be absurd scum too I guess, town doesn't have a monopoly on that. We'll just go with absurd.
I'll hammer KJ when the replacements are caught up. Or they can. Whatevs.
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I considered both of those. And those are the only two I came up with as beneficial for Alway.
Doesn't stop roleblockers, btw.
Another problem with Alway is that if someone uses a Vitality modifying ability of any kind, it gets thrown back at them.. which is fine except then it alerts all of us that it happened, and helps narrow down who did it. I do not want scum having that information if we can avoid it. Especially this early in the game.
His mentality here is consistent with what he claims for his role and how he intended to use it. He doesn't mind people losing vit, and he doesn't think scum should have info on peoples' vit and who can alter it. He's trying to protect info about his role here, which he wouldn't need to do as scum.
ITT: Cythare fakes it, wildfire tries really hard, and AsianInvasion is secretly scum but nobody will ever vote for him.
I'd vote him if I thought he was scum. Currently he just seems like a trolly AI who's trying to figure out game mechanics. That's par for the course with him.
But still... feel free to start giving reasons for anything ever Iso. It's hard to take you seriously if you're just saying things for no reason.
So, the whole slip thing. I guess I'm not sure I totally buy it as a slip. I can see the logic Iso/DCIII pointed out. I could also see it being like KJ said and he just miscounted not really paying attention. As scum, wouldn't he be a bit more attentive to the details and not make such a simple mistake? I don't know, I guess it's more null for me than a slip one way or the other.
Seppel thinks scumtells that are dependent on the person's personality are universal.
Everyone voting me needs to say why, especially if it has to do with the supposed slip.
I'd choose AI and Iso.
So, as I pointed out above, he was seeing AI as town. Since then he said his 144 was weird and that's the only mention of AI. Now as AI is getting pressure counter to his own, AI is his top two lynch choices. Also listing Iso is very OMGUS here. Like, I don't think he has ever said Iso is scummy and has just been asking him questions about the "slip."
So are there reasons besides the tell and my being busy that is bothering you, Iso? Cuz I feel like I've disproven both of those mostly.
There's much better evidence for AI being scum anyway. I don't like that you're discounting that so readily.
Vote AI, then we can look into Iso tomorrow.
As people are pushing AI he now votes him with his only reason he has listed being that his, "144 is weird."
I'm trying as best I can. I'm off Sunday and Monday. I'll have more than one hour on those days to actually catch up with this game.
I'll devote a good chunk of time tomorrow to do just that.
Because,you know...I'll actually have time.
I'm not 'content to just show up sometimes' cuz obviously I joined this game to play it, not avoid it.
Everyone gets busy. The sheer amount of, "I'll post content later," posts is fairly alarming though. I mean people have already been calling you out for lurking and promising content but then instead of actually posting content, any content, you have defended against people calling you out on it. I don't know, the number of times it's happened just makes it seem like stalling. You could have at least commented on the most recent posts without doing your whole reread. Like, as town, there has to be a point where you think to yourself, "If I'm not going to post anything useful, I should probably stop saying I'm going to over and over and over..."
1157 is notes without a ton of reasoning and it's well after the fact and they happen to line up with the people that he called scum with no previous reasoning provided. Not really a fan of this post. It's supposed to be long and analyzy™ and I just don't get much out of it.
1242 is another long catchup post with notes that just doesn't do much for me. He does mudsling at Arian quite a bit in that post though and doesn't put him in his top 5 scum which is interesting.
AI, Arian and Proph are all scum and we should be lynching one of them.
I agree with this.
And here is a couple posts later saying Arian is scum, when he wasn't even listed as a maybe in his previous top 5 scum post.
On his claim. Roles have been stated as randomized. I don't particularly care about the discussion on whether or not it could be a scum or town ability. KJ says it has to be useful to town because he is town (in his estimation). He has stated he believes that roles aren't entirely random, which is fine to think despite the OP stating otherwise, but either way, the role in itself is a null tell. It's basically a poisoner that isn't even guaranteed to kill. I believe the claim and I believe it could be town or scum.
Now the way he has stated he would use it is something worth considering. He has been consistent in his reasoning, and if town, it would make sense that he would be thinking of a way in which the passive part benefits town. But that means he thinks the ability is one that couldn't be given to scum and the reason he has the ability is because he is town. Given that the OP states roles are random, and people have pointed this out, and yet he still fights that it must be town seems off. He's trying to justify why it has to be town as a way to fight for his survival, but as town wouldn't he accept that roles are random and try to use his play to defend himself instead of trying to survive on his role? I don't know, I guess the way he has reacted and talked about his role seems genuine to me and not really forced, but I think he could totally have that role as scum and the fact that he refuses to acknowledge that is off to me.
I don't like the attack on KJ for him explaining his role and I don't like the push on him for assuming their would be more complex roles in the game. Seemed entirely reasonable to me.
1481 is the case on AI, but it's so after the fact of starting to call him scum that it's hard to believe it's not manufactured. I mean some of the points are good and make AI look bad, and in particular I like his point about AI not caring where we go but usually being a mechanics-focused player if that's true, but most if it is just restating what other people have said was scummy about AI. The point of it was to prove AI is scum and this doesn't prove it to me. A lot of his points aren't even solid and feel tacked on. Like the last two. In the second to last he basically says that it isn't really anything. The last thing, he doesn't say why it's even scummy and what it implies. It just seems like it could be fishing.
_____
I think there are definitely quite a few things that make KJ look bad, but he has some stuff in his favor as well. In particular my very first quote in this post. It's not a slam dunk, but he looks scummy and I would be in favor of his lynch toDay.
Hunger: I definitely explained the last point twice. What about it did you not get?
I also don't remember saying I didn't think roles were randomized, but I don't see how that's relevent to alignment anyway.
Meg: You say you read my case. What conclusions did you draw from it?
Seppel, Iso: Read the case. Proph too. Everyone else keep track of whether this gets ignored (again).
I haven't noticed Proph in here recently. If he's being lurky, that's a scumtell for him. Look into that.
Over night, someone needs to factcheck Hunger's post on me. Something seems off about it. Like it's fencesitty, and I don't like how he's willing to lynch me before reading up on AI, especially if it's "not a slam dunk".
-------
So I've slept on it and realized that nothing I say will convince you guys of my alignment. I'll just leave a few questions for people to answer. (Everyone who wants to)
1. Are you currently voting me because you think I'm scum, or because you just want the day to end?
2. If I'm Town, who are the scum and why?
3. If you were scum, who would you Nightkill tonight and why? (Not sure how effective this will be as scum will just lie, but it's worth a shot)
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also also. Why besides me is "discrediting" your voting thing? All I really said is that your one sided approach will yield nothing tomorrow because it's based on a daily assumption.
I don't understand your question - can you rephrase it?
Quote from LnG »
@Proph, both work (I was attending class and couldn't take breaks much, plus we have inspections coming up so even work is swamped) and home life (in-laws) contributed to that. When I get time I am sure I will be posting way too much. Another factor is that this Day has gone on forever and I think more discussion is just going to make it a pain in the ass late game to reread through this whole thing. And I thought it was my votes + "bad questions" that made you think I was scummy; now it's my inactivity?
You're misrepping me. I outlined why you are scum in my votal analysis post (which includes everything else).
I think Hunger is a scum-replacement - EtR's behavior was terrible, and he's doing the same thing as dC. Thinking about how people will look is not a town mindset.
Not sure yet on KamikazeArchon.
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Quote from killjoy »
This is post number 77. AI suggests a mass claim because he thinks that coordinating abilities with Vitality loss is a good idea given the large amount of public information, as he says in post 87. He also notes he doesn't think it'll be a very well liked idea. I find this suspicious because if he beleives that's such a good idea, he wouldn't voice such little confidence in the idea. This isn't "Hey guys I have an idea, lets try it", it's floating an unpopular idea as noncommitally as possible, so that when someone calls him on it he can keep his distance from it.
I'm just not sure what the scum motivation is for AI to suggest a massclaim when the OP (and all zindabad games since Seasons) have an anti-massclaim policy on them.
Quote from killjoy »
Like I said earlier, I personally think that Asian not caring where he goes is a scumtell. I've always pegged him similar to me: someone tries to solve the puzzle and optimize the mechanics. He's not doing that. That doesn't seem right.
How is not caring where we move to a scumtell? I don't particularly care where we move D1 because I personally dislike mechanics optimization.
Quote from killjoy »
Didn't he say earlier that he was liking Chris for town less than 100 posts earlier? People change their minds, sure... but was Chris's unvote really THAT insincere? Also of note, he votes in order to 'lean toward Seppel's position', trying to appeal to Seppel, who thinks he's scum.
AI thought Sir Chris was town for an extremely weak reason (pointing out something from Castlevania Mafia).
Quote from killjoy »
Finally, a defense. This whole post is pretty much AI defending against accusations from DC3. Why start now, I wonder? I won't speculate. But I will say that this specific phrase is off, because word choices are paramount to alignment hunting. He's played long enough to know that.
I think AI just brushed off attacks from weak sources ("u mad?" "nah bro") but once someone actually commits to a case against him, he defends himself in a full manner. It's something I would do, too.
Quote from killjoy »
He doesn't always vote for someone he 100% wants to lynch? And that's Mafia 101? No, you do vote when you 100% wanna lynch someone unless they're at L-1 and there's contest to his lynch. So I don't understand why he can think that.
This is just theory nitpicking.
Quote from killjoy »
Less of a point, but I feel like someone doesn't direct the town unless he believes what he's selling... but if you believe you wouldn't stop just because people thought it was scummy.
I do think that "directing the town" points to a slight town mindset, though - scum aren't inclined to take the banner up early.
Quote from killjoy »
1. I'm likely about to be lynched very very soon, but he wants someone to waste an ability on me?
2. Why just reduce my Vitality? That's very specific, and doesn't accomplish my death, as he seems to want.
3. Why does he think there's an ability that can reduce my vitality during the day?
AI's "decrease killjoy's vitality" thing is /off/, but I'm not sure if it comes from a scum mindset.
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Quote from killjoy »
1. Are you currently voting me because you think I'm scum, or because you just want the day to end?
I think you're scum.
Quote from killjoy »
2. If I'm Town, who are the scum and why?
I think killjoy/AI are an unaligned pair - If killjoy is scum, I think AI is town because their interactions are not scum-on-scum. Would have to reread if by some miraculous chance killjoy flips town. (I really don't think he will, though)
1. Are you currently voting me because you think I'm scum, or because you just want the day to end?
2. If I'm Town, who are the scum and why?
3. If you were scum, who would you Nightkill tonight and why? (Not sure how effective this will be as scum will just lie, but it's worth a shot)
So, again... see you guys in the Ghostlands.
1. I do think you're scum
2. AI still seems scummy, especially if you're town. Still figuring out the rest. Arian seems suspicious, Niv's slot deserves some scrutiny, I still don't know what to think about HookerPunch (but I guess that's a pattern with us), and I've really got to go sort through the incredibly lurky people.
3. Megiddo has been a veritable bulldozer, and scum fears very active town. They probably scour the thread for PR breadcrumbs though.
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OK, I'm caught up. Reads haven't changed much from last update. Killjoy scumread got stronger, Wildfire scumread got weaker. I think I like Hunger. I would vote Killjoy now except I think that's the hammer.
If anyone can give me vitality that would be great kthx.
PTAP -- I'm still in the process of reading through those games, so it's unlikely that I will finish your request before the end of D1, Proph. Just letting you know that it is still on my priority list.
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OK, I'm caught up. Reads haven't changed much from last update. Killjoy scumread got stronger, Wildfire scumread got weaker. I think I like Hunger. I would vote Killjoy now except I think that's the hammer.
If anyone can give me vitality that would be great kthx.
People should pay more attention to Sir Chris.
Kaze, you have the highest starting vitality of any player. Why would anyone give you vitality?
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OK, I'm caught up. Reads haven't changed much from last update. Killjoy scumread got stronger, Wildfire scumread got weaker. I think I like Hunger. I would vote Killjoy now except I think that's the hammer.
If anyone can give me vitality that would be great kthx.
People should pay more attention to Sir Chris.
Kaze, you have the highest starting vitality of any player. Why would anyone give you vitality?
I don't like this question. No one needs to know the answer to that right now. Just gives off a huge scmmy info-fishing vibe to me.
@Proph, fair enough.
@Killjoy,
1) A mix of thinking you are scum and wanting the Day to end. I would rather a lynch on Cythare, Proph or Karn, but then this Day would go on for 100 pages.
2) I haven't liked Karn's "just do enough" play. For someone who usually has accurate reads, he should be doing more, end game comments in a recent game aside. Cythare only posts when being attacked, and Proph lurked a ton, then came in with a vote on me because of "random votes" that he didn't bother explaining, then did some busywork. It's also very likely that at least one of our lurkers is scum too.
I don't like this question. No one needs to know the answer to that right now. Just gives off a huge scmmy info-fishing vibe to me.
I don't like him asking for Vitality out of nowhere when he's already got the highest. If he's going to breadcrumb stupidly, he may as well be obvious about it.
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#357 is the reason I'm sold he's scum: town doesn't forget scumslips.
#389 is using emotions on Chris and since then he befriended him.
#185 he calls Cythare scum for attacking someone he thinks is scum because "that ship is already sinking". Why would someone be scum for trying to get scum lynched? That's dishonest. Feels as if AI forgot that he called Wildfire scum and grasps at straws to defend his Cythare scumread.
Those 3 are the worst ^^
Funny, those were the ones that I felt were most shrugworthy.
Then why aren't you trying to change my mind? My thoughts are out there. If they're wrong, show me why.
AI is acting like apathetic town. I don't see how you can find scumminess in him.
@Seppel - so what changed with your read on me? I'd like you to put some effort into an Iso read and if you disagree with what I've been saying, please tell me why. Also, what made you doubt your KJ read briefly and why are you sure he's scum now?
Things like this are making it hard for me to call you town:
Long story short I spent yesterday morning in the ER and was on meds/sleeping all day and didn't touch a computer. I'm fine now and read the last few pages.
I'll try and read AI/Killjoy right now and weigh in, but I THINK HP was the hammer already? Sparse vote counts are sparse.
Off the top of my head, just from the following of the thread I did before I replaced in here are some thoughts before rereading anything:
Wildfire - Looks like his town game to me. The things Megs was calling him scummy for in the early game look like my exact reactions to him the first couple games we played together. Although I haven't seen him as scum so not sure if he does the same thing. I wouldn't worry about him until later though.
Karn - This seems to be Karn's current town meta. Intentionally don't do anything to look bad and survive the early game. I hate it and it sucks, but just coming off a game where I read him as town early, this feels the same.
DCIII - I need to read a couple of his longer posts in more detail, but I have felt like there is good reasoning behind his posts and his logic on Iso makes sense to me. I also haven't played with DCIII, but is going after a strong player (Iso) without anyone else really supporting it something he would do as scum?
Rhand - Looks like town Rhand to me. He's being fairly aggressive, asking questions and doing some analysis.
rezombied - Is this how this guy plays? Really haven't liked him thus far.
AI - The only detail I remember is some back and forth with Iso where Iso basically says all AI is doing is ad hom. I really need to reread him as it seems like he is surviving toDay. His wagon has more of my town reads on it though, which is something.
KJ - The fact that he was at L-1 for so long looks pretty bad for him when multiple people were begging for the hammer. Is most of scum on him? Most of scum afraid to hammer despite knowing there will be almost no respite? Is the scum team all inactive and not around to hammer?
His claim is moot as it's the only role we know and roles are random anyway. His idea of using the role to hide vit as pro-town despite it bring the person closer to death is interesting. Like I guess I don't really see scum claiming that role and then justifying it in that way. He would have to know he would catch flack for it and I feel like he is being honest.
His vote on the opposing AI wagon looks pretty bad. If I remember correctly he wasn't doing any scumhunting until his wagon started and then just bandwagoned on AI without much reasoning, but I should really reread him before being sure about that. Like, the only scumhunting I recall him doing is making a case on AI after he already voted him and it was clear he was the opposing wagon for toDay.
The main thing that gives me pause on KJ, is I am coming off a game in which he got mislynched as town power and his play here doesn't look unlike that game.
More later.
Given that Killjoy and I think a small handful of other players along with DCIII are calling me scummy, does your above point regarding his "lone" attack on me still stand, in your opinion?
Hunger: I definitely explained the last point twice. What about it did you not get?
I also don't remember saying I didn't think roles were randomized, but I don't see how that's relevent to alignment anyway.
Meg: You say you read my case. What conclusions did you draw from it?
Seppel, Iso: Read the case. Proph too. Everyone else keep track of whether this gets ignored (again).
I haven't noticed Proph in here recently. If he's being lurky, that's a scumtell for him. Look into that.
Over night, someone needs to factcheck Hunger's post on me. Something seems off about it. Like it's fencesitty, and I don't like how he's willing to lynch me before reading up on AI, especially if it's "not a slam dunk".
-------
So I've slept on it and realized that nothing I say will convince you guys of my alignment. I'll just leave a few questions for people to answer. (Everyone who wants to)
1. Are you currently voting me because you think I'm scum, or because you just want the day to end?
2. If I'm Town, who are the scum and why?
3. If you were scum, who would you Nightkill tonight and why? (Not sure how effective this will be as scum will just lie, but it's worth a shot)
OK, I'm caught up. Reads haven't changed much from last update. Killjoy scumread got stronger, Wildfire scumread got weaker. I think I like Hunger. I would vote Killjoy now except I think that's the hammer.
If anyone can give me vitality that would be great kthx.
People should pay more attention to Sir Chris.
Kaze, you have the highest starting vitality of any player. Why would anyone give you vitality?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
More seriously, I don't think I want to claim that much info. Everything I've already hinted at will become apparent shortly, so I don't care, but anything past that I don't want to say.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
OK, I'm caught up. Reads haven't changed much from last update. Killjoy scumread got stronger, Wildfire scumread got weaker. I think I like Hunger. I would vote Killjoy now except I think that's the hammer.
If anyone can give me vitality that would be great kthx.
People should pay more attention to Sir Chris.
Kaze, you have the highest starting vitality of any player. Why would anyone give you vitality?
OK, I'm caught up. Reads haven't changed much from last update. Killjoy scumread got stronger, Wildfire scumread got weaker. I think I like Hunger. I would vote Killjoy now except I think that's the hammer.
If anyone can give me vitality that would be great kthx.
People should pay more attention to Sir Chris.
What should they be paying attention to? Earlier on I got a lot of attention, what about that attention did not satisfy you? Don't be vague, please by all means explain your feeling about me in vivid detail.
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
I've been getting a bad vibe from you in my reread, and it didn't seem like your play in Castlevania, where you were town. Too much ego. Except I just went back and looked over Castlevania, and realized you had just as much ego there, I just didn't notice it then.
Still not sure why people just dropped the attention on you, though.
AI suddenly fell in love with me and people just seemed to not be bothered by me. If you have any questions or want to attempt to gain a read on me through back and forth I am all for it. It just seemed weird to me because I have been pushing the KJ for awhile now and you seem to agree with that, so I assume any problem with me you think I chose to bus him?
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Fair enough, but my point stands that instead of telling other people to pay attention you should do some investigation on your own. The fact that I have to prod this out of you is mildly concerning...!
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
@Meg - re: Survival Horror D2: I just read it. I don't see how that relates to this game. In Survival Horror, AI got pushed to L-1 in lightning speed when he made a very bad vote. There was no other big wagon and AI started squirming. What should I be seeing?
Apologies for not being around. Been sick in bed with some weird allergic reaction. The red spots still haven't all gone away.
I'm still feeling a bit off, so excuse me not catching up just this moment. But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
I can hammer if needed. I'll check back later, assuming I don't fall asleep again.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
From the beginning to the T/S list: Flippant town who doesn't feel the need to defend himself.
Karn might be scum with AI: I don't see it.
Handwave: Isn't a handwave.
Why reduce KJ's vitality: God it's so obvious. But any attempt in getting someone to publish the answer is so scummy. And that's exactly what Killjoy is trying to do here.
OK, I'm caught up. Reads haven't changed much from last update. Killjoy scumread got stronger, Wildfire scumread got weaker. I think I like Hunger. I would vote Killjoy now except I think that's the hammer.
If anyone can give me vitality that would be great kthx.
People should pay more attention to Sir Chris.
Kaze, you have the highest starting vitality of any player. Why would anyone give you vitality?
Things like this are making it hard for me to call you town:
I can do an Iso read some time around D2 or D3. He's trying really hard to call himself confirmed town.
As for the doubting of the KJ read, I'm very susceptible to Appeal to Emotion. Nearly every time a claim comes up and someone's passionately in the hotseat, my brain goes straight to the Empathy Box and takes a stone.
Then why aren't you trying to change my mind? My thoughts are out there. If they're wrong, show me why.
duh
No, he didn't.
No, I'm not.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
AI is acting like apathetic town. I don't see how you can find scumminess in him.
He's trying really hard to call himself town.
I /barn this.
I'll try and read AI/Killjoy right now and weigh in, but I THINK HP was the hammer already? Sparse vote counts are sparse.
Off the top of my head, just from the following of the thread I did before I replaced in here are some thoughts before rereading anything:
Wildfire - Looks like his town game to me. The things Megs was calling him scummy for in the early game look like my exact reactions to him the first couple games we played together. Although I haven't seen him as scum so not sure if he does the same thing. I wouldn't worry about him until later though.
Karn - This seems to be Karn's current town meta. Intentionally don't do anything to look bad and survive the early game. I hate it and it sucks, but just coming off a game where I read him as town early, this feels the same.
DCIII - I need to read a couple of his longer posts in more detail, but I have felt like there is good reasoning behind his posts and his logic on Iso makes sense to me. I also haven't played with DCIII, but is going after a strong player (Iso) without anyone else really supporting it something he would do as scum?
Rhand - Looks like town Rhand to me. He's being fairly aggressive, asking questions and doing some analysis.
rezombied - Is this how this guy plays? Really haven't liked him thus far.
AI - The only detail I remember is some back and forth with Iso where Iso basically says all AI is doing is ad hom. I really need to reread him as it seems like he is surviving toDay. His wagon has more of my town reads on it though, which is something.
KJ - The fact that he was at L-1 for so long looks pretty bad for him when multiple people were begging for the hammer. Is most of scum on him? Most of scum afraid to hammer despite knowing there will be almost no respite? Is the scum team all inactive and not around to hammer?
His claim is moot as it's the only role we know and roles are random anyway. His idea of using the role to hide vit as pro-town despite it bring the person closer to death is interesting. Like I guess I don't really see scum claiming that role and then justifying it in that way. He would have to know he would catch flack for it and I feel like he is being honest.
His vote on the opposing AI wagon looks pretty bad. If I remember correctly he wasn't doing any scumhunting until his wagon started and then just bandwagoned on AI without much reasoning, but I should really reread him before being sure about that. Like, the only scumhunting I recall him doing is making a case on AI after he already voted him and it was clear he was the opposing wagon for toDay.
The main thing that gives me pause on KJ, is I am coming off a game in which he got mislynched as town power and his play here doesn't look unlike that game.
More later.
Obviously. Am I posting like someone who is invested in surviving through this game?
Nice confirmation bias, bro.
UGHHHHHHHHHHHH MEG WTF
Still think KJ is scum, but more than that I am growing more certain that AI is just absurd town. Or he could be absurd scum too I guess, town doesn't have a monopoly on that. We'll just go with absurd.
I'll hammer KJ when the replacements are caught up. Or they can. Whatevs.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I'll hammer Tonight if nobody else does.
His mentality here is consistent with what he claims for his role and how he intended to use it. He doesn't mind people losing vit, and he doesn't think scum should have info on peoples' vit and who can alter it. He's trying to protect info about his role here, which he wouldn't need to do as scum.
Early on KJ thinks AI is normal town AI.
So, the whole slip thing. I guess I'm not sure I totally buy it as a slip. I can see the logic Iso/DCIII pointed out. I could also see it being like KJ said and he just miscounted not really paying attention. As scum, wouldn't he be a bit more attentive to the details and not make such a simple mistake? I don't know, I guess it's more null for me than a slip one way or the other.
So, as I pointed out above, he was seeing AI as town. Since then he said his 144 was weird and that's the only mention of AI. Now as AI is getting pressure counter to his own, AI is his top two lynch choices. Also listing Iso is very OMGUS here. Like, I don't think he has ever said Iso is scummy and has just been asking him questions about the "slip."
As people are pushing AI he now votes him with his only reason he has listed being that his, "144 is weird."
Everyone gets busy. The sheer amount of, "I'll post content later," posts is fairly alarming though. I mean people have already been calling you out for lurking and promising content but then instead of actually posting content, any content, you have defended against people calling you out on it. I don't know, the number of times it's happened just makes it seem like stalling. You could have at least commented on the most recent posts without doing your whole reread. Like, as town, there has to be a point where you think to yourself, "If I'm not going to post anything useful, I should probably stop saying I'm going to over and over and over..."
1157 is notes without a ton of reasoning and it's well after the fact and they happen to line up with the people that he called scum with no previous reasoning provided. Not really a fan of this post. It's supposed to be long and analyzy™ and I just don't get much out of it.
1242 is another long catchup post with notes that just doesn't do much for me. He does mudsling at Arian quite a bit in that post though and doesn't put him in his top 5 scum which is interesting.
And here is a couple posts later saying Arian is scum, when he wasn't even listed as a maybe in his previous top 5 scum post.
On his claim. Roles have been stated as randomized. I don't particularly care about the discussion on whether or not it could be a scum or town ability. KJ says it has to be useful to town because he is town (in his estimation). He has stated he believes that roles aren't entirely random, which is fine to think despite the OP stating otherwise, but either way, the role in itself is a null tell. It's basically a poisoner that isn't even guaranteed to kill. I believe the claim and I believe it could be town or scum.
Now the way he has stated he would use it is something worth considering. He has been consistent in his reasoning, and if town, it would make sense that he would be thinking of a way in which the passive part benefits town. But that means he thinks the ability is one that couldn't be given to scum and the reason he has the ability is because he is town. Given that the OP states roles are random, and people have pointed this out, and yet he still fights that it must be town seems off. He's trying to justify why it has to be town as a way to fight for his survival, but as town wouldn't he accept that roles are random and try to use his play to defend himself instead of trying to survive on his role? I don't know, I guess the way he has reacted and talked about his role seems genuine to me and not really forced, but I think he could totally have that role as scum and the fact that he refuses to acknowledge that is off to me.
I don't like the attack on KJ for him explaining his role and I don't like the push on him for assuming their would be more complex roles in the game. Seemed entirely reasonable to me.
1481 is the case on AI, but it's so after the fact of starting to call him scum that it's hard to believe it's not manufactured. I mean some of the points are good and make AI look bad, and in particular I like his point about AI not caring where we go but usually being a mechanics-focused player if that's true, but most if it is just restating what other people have said was scummy about AI. The point of it was to prove AI is scum and this doesn't prove it to me. A lot of his points aren't even solid and feel tacked on. Like the last two. In the second to last he basically says that it isn't really anything. The last thing, he doesn't say why it's even scummy and what it implies. It just seems like it could be fishing.
_____
I think there are definitely quite a few things that make KJ look bad, but he has some stuff in his favor as well. In particular my very first quote in this post. It's not a slam dunk, but he looks scummy and I would be in favor of his lynch toDay.
I also don't remember saying I didn't think roles were randomized, but I don't see how that's relevent to alignment anyway.
Meg: You say you read my case. What conclusions did you draw from it?
Seppel, Iso: Read the case. Proph too. Everyone else keep track of whether this gets ignored (again).
I haven't noticed Proph in here recently. If he's being lurky, that's a scumtell for him. Look into that.
Over night, someone needs to factcheck Hunger's post on me. Something seems off about it. Like it's fencesitty, and I don't like how he's willing to lynch me before reading up on AI, especially if it's "not a slam dunk".
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So I've slept on it and realized that nothing I say will convince you guys of my alignment. I'll just leave a few questions for people to answer. (Everyone who wants to)
1. Are you currently voting me because you think I'm scum, or because you just want the day to end?
2. If I'm Town, who are the scum and why?
3. If you were scum, who would you Nightkill tonight and why? (Not sure how effective this will be as scum will just lie, but it's worth a shot)
So, again... see you guys in the Ghostlands.
I don't understand your question - can you rephrase it?
You're misrepping me. I outlined why you are scum in my votal analysis post (which includes everything else).
I think Hunger is a scum-replacement - EtR's behavior was terrible, and he's doing the same thing as dC. Thinking about how people will look is not a town mindset.
Not sure yet on KamikazeArchon.
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I'm just not sure what the scum motivation is for AI to suggest a massclaim when the OP (and all zindabad games since Seasons) have an anti-massclaim policy on them.
How is not caring where we move to a scumtell? I don't particularly care where we move D1 because I personally dislike mechanics optimization.
AI thought Sir Chris was town for an extremely weak reason (pointing out something from Castlevania Mafia).
I think AI just brushed off attacks from weak sources ("u mad?" "nah bro") but once someone actually commits to a case against him, he defends himself in a full manner. It's something I would do, too.
This is just theory nitpicking.
I do think that "directing the town" points to a slight town mindset, though - scum aren't inclined to take the banner up early.
AI's "decrease killjoy's vitality" thing is /off/, but I'm not sure if it comes from a scum mindset.
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I think you're scum.
I think killjoy/AI are an unaligned pair - If killjoy is scum, I think AI is town because their interactions are not scum-on-scum. Would have to reread if by some miraculous chance killjoy flips town. (I really don't think he will, though)
What case did I ignore?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/563580-celestial-mafia-day-1-beneath-snuffed-stars?comment=1481
1. I do think you're scum
2. AI still seems scummy, especially if you're town. Still figuring out the rest. Arian seems suspicious, Niv's slot deserves some scrutiny, I still don't know what to think about HookerPunch (but I guess that's a pattern with us), and I've really got to go sort through the incredibly lurky people.
3. Megiddo has been a veritable bulldozer, and scum fears very active town. They probably scour the thread for PR breadcrumbs though.
Currently Playing:
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If anyone can give me vitality that would be great kthx.
People should pay more attention to Sir Chris.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Kaze, you have the highest starting vitality of any player. Why would anyone give you vitality?
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I hope to have a very long post by tomorrow night, Thursday at the latest.
please dont hammer, i'd like a chance to at least get caught up.
I don't like this question. No one needs to know the answer to that right now. Just gives off a huge scmmy info-fishing vibe to me.
@Proph, fair enough.
@Killjoy,
1) A mix of thinking you are scum and wanting the Day to end. I would rather a lynch on Cythare, Proph or Karn, but then this Day would go on for 100 pages.
2) I haven't liked Karn's "just do enough" play. For someone who usually has accurate reads, he should be doing more, end game comments in a recent game aside. Cythare only posts when being attacked, and Proph lurked a ton, then came in with a vote on me because of "random votes" that he didn't bother explaining, then did some busywork. It's also very likely that at least one of our lurkers is scum too.
3) Megiddo. Super obv town.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I don't like him asking for Vitality out of nowhere when he's already got the highest. If he's going to breadcrumb stupidly, he may as well be obvious about it.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
that sounds suspiciously like it requires effort
I can
I mean, it should be fairly obvious that I'm town by this point.
Given that Killjoy and I think a small handful of other players along with DCIII are calling me scummy, does your above point regarding his "lone" attack on me still stand, in your opinion?
arhoncid
I read the case. Why do you think I didn't?
1. Yes
2. My scumreads minus you
3. probably your mom. actually probably seppel.
why would you ask this
sigh
or me
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What should they be paying attention to? Earlier on I got a lot of attention, what about that attention did not satisfy you? Don't be vague, please by all means explain your feeling about me in vivid detail.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Still not sure why people just dropped the attention on you, though.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Apologies for not being around. Been sick in bed with some weird allergic reaction. The red spots still haven't all gone away.
I'm still feeling a bit off, so excuse me not catching up just this moment. But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
I can hammer if needed. I'll check back later, assuming I don't fall asleep again.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
arhoncid
I don't see malice in Sir Chris's actions.
From the beginning to the T/S list: Flippant town who doesn't feel the need to defend himself.
Karn might be scum with AI: I don't see it.
Handwave: Isn't a handwave.
Why reduce KJ's vitality: God it's so obvious. But any attempt in getting someone to publish the answer is so scummy. And that's exactly what Killjoy is trying to do here.
You're bad at this game.
What?
I washed my pants today and they're drying currently.