For any of you that have played with Generic before..how is this different than he always acts as town? I only have a couple of games experience with him, but he was town in those, and he seems to be acting the same way here as he did in those games. I don't think this is a good wagon.
I don't care if someone wants to maximize their league points, it's whatever.
What bothers me is constantly referencing it, like an attempt to reinforce it into our subconscious like 'Oh, he cares about league points and scum wouldn't do that'.
I'm proposing to flat out ban mentioning league points during games going forwards, so that people just...play the game, and let the points be awarded how they will after the fact.
It adds an element to game play and trying to read players that shouldn't exist, and isn't good for game health.
This isn't really a personal critique of you or anything, but more a 'I think it'd make the game and league better going forward if we do this' thing.
I just skimmed some recent posts, so going to try and catch up properly now.
For any of you that have played with Generic before..how is this different than he always acts as town? I only have a couple of games experience with him, but he was town in those, and he seems to be acting the same way here as he did in those games. I don't think this is a good wagon.
He really doesn't care about finding scum. He only cares about seeing as being in 1v1's because 1v1's are inherently town.
This is something I've brought up regarding League scoring. Talking about ongoing games is prohibited, as is discussing ongoing games outside of the game. I feel these are specific instances of a much larger category of behaviors that go against the spirit of the game: Out-of-Game Influence. Further examples would be referencing a player's activity in other threads, threatening to avoid players in future games, etc. So henceforth there will be no more appealing to forces outside this specific game in an attempt to influence others, including reference to the League scoring system.
I get it. I'm a statistical analyst for a living, mathematics major, competitive gamer, etc.
It's less about you, and more about just not wanting it to be a layer that we have to sort through in the game, if that makes sense? Just something to worry about once it's over.
Dropping it, though.
And no, don't think I want to vote you.
Might not want to vote Fulcrum either, though that's a little more tempting.
Trying to decide what I think about Cantrip at the moment and his self-sacrificial-ness. But it'd have to be a provable and logical claim to fit with his current play so I'm...probably okay with him for now? Ish? Eh.
This is something I've brought up regarding League scoring. Talking about ongoing games is prohibited, as is discussing ongoing games outside of the game. I feel these are specific instances of a much larger category of behaviors that go against the spirit of the game: Out-of-Game Influence. Further examples would be referencing a player's activity in other threads, threatening to avoid players in future games, etc. So henceforth there will be no more appealing to forces outside this specific game in an attempt to influence others, including reference to the League scoring system.
Referencing a player's activity in other threads(especially other mafia) ones is 100% legitimate.
This is something I've brought up regarding League scoring. Talking about ongoing games is prohibited, as is discussing ongoing games outside of the game. I feel these are specific instances of a much larger category of behaviors that go against the spirit of the game: Out-of-Game Influence. Further examples would be referencing a player's activity in other threads, threatening to avoid players in future games, etc. So henceforth there will be no more appealing to forces outside this specific game in an attempt to influence others, including reference to the League scoring system.
Referencing a player's activity in other threads(especially other mafia) ones is 100% legitimate.
Other (completed) mafia games is fine. "Look, this player isn't posting in this game but he posted in Club Flamingo" is not. Or, "I see this person is currently viewing the thread. Why isn't he posting?" Such things have been deemed modkillable in games I've played.
This is something I've brought up regarding League scoring. Talking about ongoing games is prohibited, as is discussing ongoing games outside of the game. I feel these are specific instances of a much larger category of behaviors that go against the spirit of the game: Out-of-Game Influence. Further examples would be referencing a player's activity in other threads, threatening to avoid players in future games, etc. So henceforth there will be no more appealing to forces outside this specific game in an attempt to influence others, including reference to the League scoring system.
Referencing a player's activity in other threads(especially other mafia) ones is 100% legitimate.
Other (completed) mafia games is fine. "Look, this player isn't posting in this game but he posted in Club Flamingo" is not. Or, "I see this person is currently viewing the thread. Why isn't he posting?" Such things have been deemed modkillable in games I've played.
This is 100% garbage. I have used this tell against people that I thought were scum and was right literally every single time. Townies do not actively avoid a game thread. Even when they're under suspicion. Scum do. Period. Infringing upon viable game strategy because you feel like it as the Mod is infuriating. I dare you to ask around about this particular train of thought. Ask the Council, or the general council thread. Anyone.
This being a league game influences some people's play, wether you want it or not.
Not being allowed to talk about what that does with someone's mindset cripples town.
It's an extra layer indeed, but it is there so why ignore it? It is definately not an 'outside game influence'. It's part of this game.
I am not sure if I want to continue to play with these new rules. Put them in the sign-up post next time?
This is something I've brought up regarding League scoring. Talking about ongoing games is prohibited, as is discussing ongoing games outside of the game. I feel these are specific instances of a much larger category of behaviors that go against the spirit of the game: Out-of-Game Influence. Further examples would be referencing a player's activity in other threads, threatening to avoid players in future games, etc. So henceforth there will be no more appealing to forces outside this specific game in an attempt to influence others, including reference to the League scoring system.
Referencing a player's activity in other threads(especially other mafia) ones is 100% legitimate.
Other (completed) mafia games is fine. "Look, this player isn't posting in this game but he posted in Club Flamingo" is not. Or, "I see this person is currently viewing the thread. Why isn't he posting?" Such things have been deemed modkillable in games I've played.
This is 100% garbage. I have used this tell against people that I thought were scum and was right literally every single time. Townies do not actively avoid a game thread. Even when they're under suspicion. Scum do. Period. Infringing upon viable game strategy because you feel like it as the Mod is infuriating. I dare you to ask around about this particular train of thought. Ask the Council, or the general council thread. Anyone.
I've actively avoided a game thread before as town. A lot. Usually not to the point of getting prodded, but I've avoided posting for a few days before.
@WG: If you did so under heavy suspicion, then you deserved to get lynched and put on probation. That is unacceptable gameplay.
@Rhand: I feel the same way, and am seriously considering replacement(the fact that this new forum software is completely miserable and stupidly difficult to use for mafia does not help).
In the meantime, people should stop voting Generic and vote Karn instead. Like this: Unvote, Vote Karn. Karn's wagon hopping today alone warrants this, even if you don't read through Day 1, where he spends most of his time talking about how scummy Generic is, while voting Shockwave, and where he completely ignores the Antny wagon.
So we've had Generic vs. Rhand and Generic vs. Fulcrum. From reading him, I don't think Generic is mafia. He reads a lot like other town games where he gets into fights that tend toward the minutiae, gets offended by other players suspecting him and challenges others to duels. I'd be more inclined to think fulcrum was. She either hasn't played (or watched Generic play) with him, or is misrepping his town play. This reads differently than both Marvels where he tried to manipulate the others by playing to modgaming.
Vote fulcrum
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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Kill shot: BB
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I agree that questioning people's posting habits (epecially if extensively outside a game thread) may count as 'out of game influence' technically, but I feel like it's within the bounds of trying to figure out mindset and should be allowed in games. Only if the postings outside of games are large in number is it a reasonable case, I would say. We can ask Theory after the game though for this, unless we feel like it needs addressing right now. Maybe a private discussion with the council so as not to let the details of that discussion influence this game, possibly?
Also: Cyan claimed Doc. I'm not sure if I were in his position I would have sent the action he did, but with known information right now Doc isn't unlikely, so I'm gonna trust that he's telling the truth.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Let's not get into rules discussion now. Since the game has already begun, carry on with the rules listed in the OP. Reference to League scoring is futile, however, since as far as I know the rubric for the new season hasn't been decided.
KillJoy's last post irks me. It's something about his wording, like if he doesn't want to take definite stances on anything and doesn't trust his own words.
Is Fulcrum in claim range yet? We need to start picking the final lynch for toDay.
Alright I tried to look back and find who talked about Shock being town (other than Rhand and Cyan which I have already covered) but didn't respond to my multiple prods to show why to see if there was anything there.
Wheat - Calls Shock town for reasons, but doesn't give those reasons. I've been becoming progressively more wary of Wheat, I really don't like the "x is town" without any reasons type of play and he has done that for like 3 or 4 people. Someone that has played with him more, is this normal? In this game alone, he has shown the ability to think about things and question people, so it doesn't really add up to me that it's just his style, there seems to be two styles happening.
TK - Didn't actually call Shock town but I found it interesting that he agreed with me that Shock was scummy and said I was right in my reads. Never voted Shock and never pressured him or mentioned him after. Based on Niv/Antny interactions I did have a town read on TK though so not sure what to think.
Killjoy - Was questioning Rhand about why his Shock town tells were town tells yet stated he thinks Shock is town. Didn't find any reasoning for why he felt Shock was town and he didn't reply to my questioning. KJ has been fairly lurky which I typically don't like, but THAT town slip...
Cantrip - Called Shock town and didn't reply to me, but did actually give some reasoning when calling him town, and since he has been mostly MIA, probably didn't even see my question. Also, I'm getting a town vibe from his whole kill me thing, and even if I wasn't, I tend to not be so quick to want to lynch someone that is asking for it.
SNL - Moot since he replaced out likely without even reading my question. There is the weird thing I pointed out in my Niv interactions post though that he called Shock town and then kept questioning him anyway.
I also reread my Niv interaction notes, definitely don't want to lynch Karn or TK toDay. Shock and the SNL slot still look bad. I don't like that Shock has disappeared when he was actually getting pressure. I do think Fulcrum has made the SNL slot look better, but the weird interactions are still there.
I think the Hans slot deserves pressure based on Antny calling him town while I think the other three he called town (Cyan, TK, Rhand) all are looking better based on Niv interactions and/or their play toDay. Assuming Antny called a buddy town, pretty sure it's either Hans or Rhand. Also, Voxx has done nothing with the Hans slot.
Still think Generic is town and I won't support that wagon toDay.
@everyone - Can we talk about Antny's weird waffling on Shock that lead to his lynch and what it means for Shock's alignment please? I keep going back and forth.
Right now, Shock/Voxx/Fulcrum are probably the pool I would want to lynch from depending on if I can get discussion on the Shock thing. Rhand and Wheat are on the peripherals as well. I also realize I don't have much of an opinion on hawk, which I don't like as it tells me he is mostly laying low. All I remember is he and Generic getting after it a bit, and I feel like I had a town read on him D1 for something.
It can go both ways. Antny wanted off the Shock wagon, that's for sure. But why?
It can be because too many people had a townread on town!Shock. But also because scum!Shock was no longer in real danger and Antny didn't have to be bussing the buddy anymore.
Both possibilities explain why Antny tried to keep himself open to hop back on if the wagon gained tracktion again.
I think town!Shock might make a tad more sense that way.
Iirc, Wheat called Shock town for something Niv said, right?
@Rhand - Yeah, that's what I'm going back and forth on. Why do you say town Shock makes a bit more sense?
@people pushing Karn - Is anyone going to make an actual case? Also, if/when you do, can you please address my town read of him based on Niv interactions post I made?
@Rhand - Yeah, that's what I'm going back and forth on. Why do you say town Shock makes a bit more sense?
Because I think the urgency to leave himself open to hop on a future mislynch wagon might be bigger than leaving an opening to bus a buddy.
But that's a small thing. I really think it can go both ways.
Ignoring the fact that he left a later bus opportunity open, what do you think about the unvote by itself? Like, if Antny had just unvoted Shock there and not said anything about him still being scummy, do you think it would be more likely he was hopping off a buddy or a townie?
@WG: If you did so under heavy suspicion, then you deserved to get lynched and put on probation. That is unacceptable gameplay.
I've done it then too, and I defend my decision. Mafia is a game of timing, too.
If you want to put me on probation for it then start filing for it.
@Rhand: I feel the same way, and am seriously considering replacement(the fact that this new forum software is completely miserable and stupidly difficult to use for mafia does not help).
Seriously, how can curse be *this* bad? Things (a lot of things) that should work just plain don't, and what do we get from it? a background image and "add us on FB and Twitter" buttons.
**** Curse.
In the meantime, people should stop voting Generic and vote Karn instead. Like this: Unvote, Vote Karn. Karn's wagon hopping today alone warrants this, even if you don't read through Day 1, where he spends most of his time talking about how scummy Generic is, while voting Shockwave, and where he completely ignores the Antny wagon.
Wheat - Calls Shock town for reasons, but doesn't give those reasons. I've been becoming progressively more wary of Wheat, I really don't like the "x is town" without any reasons type of play and he has done that for like 3 or 4 people. Someone that has played with him more, is this normal? In this game alone, he has shown the ability to think about things and question people, so it doesn't really add up to me that it's just his style, there seems to be two styles happening.
I like to see if any cages get rattled so I usually don't post reasoning unless I really wanted the player dead immediately. And if I really want that, I go back and make a full case.
And then I forget that I've never posted reasoning.
But I thought I did give reasons for Shock? Let me look...
Ah. I did not. Post 68 I said I would but didn't: He's trying to get town to figure out what they're gonna do when he flips, no matter what he flips. He was promoting thinking and getting mileage out of his death, while still accepting that he was gonna die. That's a townie mindset.
If there's sufficient interest and reason for an extension, I'll grant one. I don't really see much reason to grant one in this situation.
I guess I'm not sure how many players in this game are from the US, but the 4th is a pretty big holiday especially for going out of town. The deadline is on the 5th and I won't be around during crunch time and I would wager that at least one other person is probably in the same boat.
If we can't get to a lynch within these deadlines, then we deserve it really.
It's not like we've had to deal with excessive and overlapping VL/A's and stuff like that.
So eh... let's move towards a concencus, shall we?
This is my view on the current wagons:
Cantripmancer (2): Voxxicus, 7hawk77 --> there's no case on Cantrip? Why are you voting him?
Sir Karn (2): Cyan, Generic --> is there a case on Karn? All I know he's not doing is answering Fulcrum's question? Anything else?
Shockwave07 (1): Hunger --> Shock really is most probably town and you're not going to find support for this wagon toDay.
Cyan (1): Killjoy --> the unCC'ed doc? We're not lynching this slot toDay.
fulcrum (3): Shockwave07, Rhand, TK-421 --> best lynch option: look at Niv interactions.
Generic (3): fulcrum, Sir Karn, Wheat_Grinder --> decent lynch option: he's not being productive (unproductive even at times) and can flip either way.
Outdated Mafia Stats
I don't care if someone wants to maximize their league points, it's whatever.
What bothers me is constantly referencing it, like an attempt to reinforce it into our subconscious like 'Oh, he cares about league points and scum wouldn't do that'.
I'm proposing to flat out ban mentioning league points during games going forwards, so that people just...play the game, and let the points be awarded how they will after the fact.
It adds an element to game play and trying to read players that shouldn't exist, and isn't good for game health.
This isn't really a personal critique of you or anything, but more a 'I think it'd make the game and league better going forward if we do this' thing.
I just skimmed some recent posts, so going to try and catch up properly now.
He really doesn't care about finding scum. He only cares about seeing as being in 1v1's because 1v1's are inherently town.
Are you scum?
Maybe with Karn?
I get it. I'm a statistical analyst for a living, mathematics major, competitive gamer, etc.
It's less about you, and more about just not wanting it to be a layer that we have to sort through in the game, if that makes sense? Just something to worry about once it's over.
Dropping it, though.
And no, don't think I want to vote you.
Might not want to vote Fulcrum either, though that's a little more tempting.
Trying to decide what I think about Cantrip at the moment and his self-sacrificial-ness. But it'd have to be a provable and logical claim to fit with his current play so I'm...probably okay with him for now? Ish? Eh.
Re-reading Karn and Wheat. Soon.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
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Referencing a player's activity in other threads(especially other mafia) ones is 100% legitimate.
Other (completed) mafia games is fine. "Look, this player isn't posting in this game but he posted in Club Flamingo" is not. Or, "I see this person is currently viewing the thread. Why isn't he posting?" Such things have been deemed modkillable in games I've played.
This is 100% garbage. I have used this tell against people that I thought were scum and was right literally every single time. Townies do not actively avoid a game thread. Even when they're under suspicion. Scum do. Period. Infringing upon viable game strategy because you feel like it as the Mod is infuriating. I dare you to ask around about this particular train of thought. Ask the Council, or the general council thread. Anyone.
Not being allowed to talk about what that does with someone's mindset cripples town.
It's an extra layer indeed, but it is there so why ignore it? It is definately not an 'outside game influence'. It's part of this game.
I am not sure if I want to continue to play with these new rules. Put them in the sign-up post next time?
No. Are you?
I've actively avoided a game thread before as town. A lot. Usually not to the point of getting prodded, but I've avoided posting for a few days before.
@Rhand: I feel the same way, and am seriously considering replacement(the fact that this new forum software is completely miserable and stupidly difficult to use for mafia does not help).
In the meantime, people should stop voting Generic and vote Karn instead. Like this: Unvote, Vote Karn. Karn's wagon hopping today alone warrants this, even if you don't read through Day 1, where he spends most of his time talking about how scummy Generic is, while voting Shockwave, and where he completely ignores the Antny wagon.
Vote fulcrum
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Also: Cyan claimed Doc. I'm not sure if I were in his position I would have sent the action he did, but with known information right now Doc isn't unlikely, so I'm gonna trust that he's telling the truth.
Wheat's 714 feels off to me though. Not sure why.
Is Fulcrum in claim range yet? We need to start picking the final lynch for toDay.
Wheat - Calls Shock town for reasons, but doesn't give those reasons. I've been becoming progressively more wary of Wheat, I really don't like the "x is town" without any reasons type of play and he has done that for like 3 or 4 people. Someone that has played with him more, is this normal? In this game alone, he has shown the ability to think about things and question people, so it doesn't really add up to me that it's just his style, there seems to be two styles happening.
TK - Didn't actually call Shock town but I found it interesting that he agreed with me that Shock was scummy and said I was right in my reads. Never voted Shock and never pressured him or mentioned him after. Based on Niv/Antny interactions I did have a town read on TK though so not sure what to think.
Killjoy - Was questioning Rhand about why his Shock town tells were town tells yet stated he thinks Shock is town. Didn't find any reasoning for why he felt Shock was town and he didn't reply to my questioning. KJ has been fairly lurky which I typically don't like, but THAT town slip...
Cantrip - Called Shock town and didn't reply to me, but did actually give some reasoning when calling him town, and since he has been mostly MIA, probably didn't even see my question. Also, I'm getting a town vibe from his whole kill me thing, and even if I wasn't, I tend to not be so quick to want to lynch someone that is asking for it.
SNL - Moot since he replaced out likely without even reading my question. There is the weird thing I pointed out in my Niv interactions post though that he called Shock town and then kept questioning him anyway.
I also reread my Niv interaction notes, definitely don't want to lynch Karn or TK toDay. Shock and the SNL slot still look bad. I don't like that Shock has disappeared when he was actually getting pressure. I do think Fulcrum has made the SNL slot look better, but the weird interactions are still there.
I think the Hans slot deserves pressure based on Antny calling him town while I think the other three he called town (Cyan, TK, Rhand) all are looking better based on Niv interactions and/or their play toDay. Assuming Antny called a buddy town, pretty sure it's either Hans or Rhand. Also, Voxx has done nothing with the Hans slot.
Still think Generic is town and I won't support that wagon toDay.
@everyone - Can we talk about Antny's weird waffling on Shock that lead to his lynch and what it means for Shock's alignment please? I keep going back and forth.
Right now, Shock/Voxx/Fulcrum are probably the pool I would want to lynch from depending on if I can get discussion on the Shock thing. Rhand and Wheat are on the peripherals as well. I also realize I don't have much of an opinion on hawk, which I don't like as it tells me he is mostly laying low. All I remember is he and Generic getting after it a bit, and I feel like I had a town read on him D1 for something.
@mod - V/LA 4th - 6th
Unvote
Vote Karn
You will answer the question or you will die.
It can be because too many people had a townread on town!Shock. But also because scum!Shock was no longer in real danger and Antny didn't have to be bussing the buddy anymore.
Both possibilities explain why Antny tried to keep himself open to hop back on if the wagon gained tracktion again.
I think town!Shock might make a tad more sense that way.
Iirc, Wheat called Shock town for something Niv said, right?
@people pushing Karn - Is anyone going to make an actual case? Also, if/when you do, can you please address my town read of him based on Niv interactions post I made?
Because I think the urgency to leave himself open to hop on a future mislynch wagon might be bigger than leaving an opening to bus a buddy.
But that's a small thing. I really think it can go both ways.
Cantripmancer (2): Voxxicus, 7hawk77
Sir Karn (3): Cyan, Generic, fulcrum
Shockwave07 (1): Hunger
Cyan (1): Killjoy
fulcrum (3): Shockwave07, Rhand, TK-421
Generic (2): Sir Karn, Wheat_Grinder
Not voting (1): Cantripmancer
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to burn. The deadline is 52 hours from now.
We need people posting so we don't end toDay with a no lynch.
I agree: we need to pick up the pace pronto.
I have no idea what the question is but you should still answer it.
I've done it then too, and I defend my decision. Mafia is a game of timing, too.
If you want to put me on probation for it then start filing for it.
Seriously, how can curse be *this* bad? Things (a lot of things) that should work just plain don't, and what do we get from it? a background image and "add us on FB and Twitter" buttons.
**** Curse.
But Karn is town tho.
I like to see if any cages get rattled so I usually don't post reasoning unless I really wanted the player dead immediately. And if I really want that, I go back and make a full case.
And then I forget that I've never posted reasoning.
But I thought I did give reasons for Shock? Let me look...
Ah. I did not. Post 68 I said I would but didn't: He's trying to get town to figure out what they're gonna do when he flips, no matter what he flips. He was promoting thinking and getting mileage out of his death, while still accepting that he was gonna die. That's a townie mindset.
If there's sufficient interest and reason for an extension, I'll grant one. I don't really see much reason to grant one in this situation.
Tell me why you think I'm scum. Give me ******* reasons. This isn't a high bar.
It's not like we've had to deal with excessive and overlapping VL/A's and stuff like that.
So eh... let's move towards a concencus, shall we?
This is my view on the current wagons:
Cantripmancer (2): Voxxicus, 7hawk77 --> there's no case on Cantrip? Why are you voting him?
Sir Karn (2): Cyan, Generic --> is there a case on Karn? All I know he's not doing is answering Fulcrum's question? Anything else?
Shockwave07 (1): Hunger --> Shock really is most probably town and you're not going to find support for this wagon toDay.
Cyan (1): Killjoy --> the unCC'ed doc? We're not lynching this slot toDay.
fulcrum (3): Shockwave07, Rhand, TK-421 --> best lynch option: look at Niv interactions.
Generic (3): fulcrum, Sir Karn, Wheat_Grinder --> decent lynch option: he's not being productive (unproductive even at times) and can flip either way.
I will be VL/A from the 5th until the 23rd for work.
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v/la from the 4th to the 6th; meeting friends in Copenhagen
Well neither has Voxx, and he's on the same wagon?