Also, I'm pretty sure Cyan is the best scum player I know, even if his heart was only halfway in this particular game. He's hardly ever, ever caught tipping his hand with scum tells. From the start, I knew that Tar or I might have a tough time to stay alive, but that Cyan was going to be solid for us. And he was.
Sad to see Arnnaria take a break, but definitely appreciated all the work you've put in here over the years, and not simply in this particular game.
Thanks, Az. I was just raging the whole time that you didn't get lynched immediately after I died because I intentionally gave absolutely no indication that I was a PR, even deleting entire post fragments because it would have leaked through - and it was obvious that I died because I was scumreading you and townreading dC. I'm pretty happy with my "Welp, if Tare is scum, so is Cyan" post, my scum read on Az within the first 70 posts, Tare's inexplicable fear of townIso, keeping my power on the DL, and my play overall was probably some of the townier stuff I've done in my days. I'm not happy the game ended the way it did, but I'm fine with my part in how it went, so, what can you do?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Kami - why didn't you read my case? I really do feel like thats the best way to try to catch someone.
I knew you were scum and I knew you'd fake-convince your buddies no matter what I said. After LanguidJaguar's fateful vote, there was nothing I could do. And I knew that Thor wouldn't budge, so that put me in the hole quite a bit.
I meant before the Jaguar vote. My first reaction would have been to read the case and point out to everyone why the case was wrong so I wouldn't get votes on me. I think it was less the case itself and more your reaction to it that iced it.
Thanks, Az. I was just raging the whole time that you didn't get lynched immediately after I died because I intentionally gave absolutely no indication that I was a PR, even deleting entire post fragments because it would have leaked through - and it was obvious that I died because I was scumreading you and townreading dC. I'm pretty happy with my "Welp, if Tare is scum, so is Cyan" post, my scum read on Az within the first 70 posts, Tare's inexplicable fear of townIso, keeping my power on the DL, and my play overall was probably some of the townier stuff I've done in my days. I'm not happy the game ended the way it did, but I'm fine with my part in how it went, so, what can you do?
After you showed as a power role, I was slapping myself in the forehead for not remembering to pick up on your "don't make me destroy you" thing being an actual power role tell. I think I got so far into character that I convinced myself that that was just something I should disregard. D'oh.
Thanks, Az. I was just raging the whole time that you didn't get lynched immediately after I died because I intentionally gave absolutely no indication that I was a PR, even deleting entire post fragments because it would have leaked through - and it was obvious that I died because I was scumreading you and townreading dC. I'm pretty happy with my "Welp, if Tare is scum, so is Cyan" post, my scum read on Az within the first 70 posts, Tare's inexplicable fear of townIso, keeping my power on the DL, and my play overall was probably some of the townier stuff I've done in my days. I'm not happy the game ended the way it did, but I'm fine with my part in how it went, so, what can you do?
After you showed as a power role, I was slapping myself in the forehead for not remembering to pick up on your "don't make me destroy you" thing being an actual power role tell. I think I got so far into character that I convinced myself that that was just something I should disregard. D'oh.
Oh yeah, I forgot I did that.
That was basically my, "If you make me activate my role, I will punish you dearly for it," response.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I actually thought he was town but it was really hard for me to reconcile his game-long persecution of me, and complete lack of looking at any other player, with a town agenda.
Say what you will... I looked at other players plenty.
Yeah.
It was because you lied yo get a reaction and then chose not to admit it nor to address it and instead called me scum because I reacted negatively to it.
That kind of caught my attention.
I don't even care what happens in this game, I will forever take glee at the fact that *every single one* of the high and mightly players from MS were so incorrectly sure that Azrael was scum that they stopped him from correctly getting lynched Day 1.
On topic, this game continues to make no sense to me.
Echoed, except that instead of 'taking glee' replace 'smack face into palm liberally'.
Seriously, the only MS player I felt was legitimately good this game was LanguidJaguar.
Had a lot of fun, Cyan's distancing was incredible, the town replacements felt really hard to deal with as we were counting on some more predicable votes and more friendly votes, I hope I didn't drive DC too crazy, and mad props to everyone who stuck with us through all the replacements to finish out the game. It's been a pleasure, and I look forward to future cross-town games on MS, hopefully where I get to play town for a change.
The vast majority of my frustration goes entirely to all of those players who were town-reading you for blatant mimicry of emotion.
With one exception. I feel the personal digs were beneath you. Now, in the abstract, I know exactly what you were doing - playing up to the [expletive self-redacted] MS townie meta, which is apparently being an overemotional [expletive self-redacted], but that didn't make it much less annoying. I did have to check myself several times from going into a real tirade, and I won't hesitate to say that if you ever do it again in a game with me and I have a killing role, I will take that as an auto scum-tell and kill you sight unseen.
But yes. Other than that, every iota of my annoyance with this game goes instead to everyone who blocked your lynch, multiple times.
Well, I did read the game... but, yeah, I pretty much replaced into an ideal situation as no one had Az and Cyan together. The decision was just whether or not to bus Az and thought it better just to try to win today. You'd probably always think I'm scum, though, Kami as that's how I play as town, too.
Cyan and Az as co MVPs? impressive that Az staved off a lynch with literally every MTGS played voting him at one point, including both teammates.
In actual fact, I did have Azrael and Cyan as scum together - specifically for two reasons. The first is ancient history - I still remember Cyan, as scum, conspiring in-thread with a town player to kill one of his own teammates on early day 1, so I would never have cleared Cyan for his position on Azrael anyway. The second, and the real reason, was that post where he was giving tips to Azrael about securing his internet connection on his cruise. That didn't sound at all like something a Cyan actually wanting Azrael dead would say - instead, it sounded very much like 'please be on if a quicklynch opportunity shows up'.
I didn't say anything, however, because that was predicated on Azrael being scum, and I figured if I said anything he'd just NK me and then everyone else would clear him based on Azrael flipping scum. Meh.
If any scum slot had me fooled, it was the Taredas slot, i.e. yours. I had him read as fairly town the whole while. The point at which I started to be suspicious of your slot was only in the same post where you declare Kami and Cyan as scum, because while convincing on the surface, it was prone to all the same logical discrepancies that Azrael was guilty of all game - thus the questions I aimed at you. Of course, that was far too little, far too late.
-------------
On balance, though, well played to the mafia. Cyan and Taredas played more than well enough, and while I don't think Azrael played particularly well, he definitely managed to manipulate the MS side masterfully.
Still, I'm highly unsure if I actually want to participate in the MS side of this series, given that, if I was going by this game alone, LanguidJaguar is literally the only MS player I'd want on my team.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I actually thought he was town but it was really hard for me to reconcile his game-long persecution of me, and complete lack of looking at any other player, with a town agenda.
Say what you will... I looked at other players plenty.
Yeah that was mostly directed at Thor, whom I would argue is largely responsible for this loss.
I will admit to being particularly bent out of shape by Nacho this game.
And yes, Thor, that's the keyword - this game. I was impressed by you in the first two games, and Nacho in the first. Here? Not so much. And Zen's showing was particularly poor, I feel, especially where he didn't even bother to show up to claim.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I think I mostly just took some offense to the 'high and mighty' comment which, first off, I thought was utterly unfounded as I thought that (besides mocking the iso feature) no one from MS claimed any superiority of our site to this one as far as player skill goes, and second off, which really seems to be a comment that goes against the even purpose of the series.
I do think that multiple players failed to perform to hoped for standards in this game.
This game might be my least favorite game of all time.
I don't think anything should be judged by that.
Besides me and DGB agreeing to never play together again because we clearly have gone down incompatible roads as far as playstyle.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The second, and the real reason, was that post where he was giving tips to Azrael about securing his internet connection on his cruise. That didn't sound at all like something a Cyan actually wanting Azrael dead would say - instead, it sounded very much like 'please be on if a quicklynch opportunity shows up'.
I did this because selling cruises is my job, so it's something I know alot about and I just wanted to be helpful. This post would have happened regardless of my alignment. Ironically, I truly wanted Az dead, because I thought it was necessary for us to win(the scum chat reflects this).
@Thor: Maybe I'm putting too much responsibility for the town's loss on you. But I have a high opinion of your play in general, and you just got stuck in some complete nonsense this game. Like you literally did not look at anything all game other than DGB, even when everyone else that was active was declaring DBG town.
I really need to learn to trust my instincts more.
I noticed how Cyan was so different than what I am used to from him.
I always think he's scum and he's been town every time, and now i got townvibes from him. I just knew there was something wrong but didn't act on it :/
I've read all three of these and I enjoy reading Thor. I think he's perceptive and sarcastic in a way thats fun (unless, I suppose, you're on the receiving end of it).
I really thought that Kami should have engaged the point he was making more - it would have probably gotten him to redirect... and that's one of the reasons I picked Kami to pursue because she's not big on defending herself, she's more interested in waving away cases - which I normally associate more often with scum.
I'd like to apologize to everyone (but especially Proph, Arn, Az, and Cyan) for vanishing at the end - the illness that I thought I was over when I posted my final V/LA message came back with a vengeance. I only got over it a week ago, and by that time I'd already had to be replaced (without explicitly asking to be replaced, which I should have done - sorry about that).
(Honestly, even more than needing to replace out here, what bothers me is that I think that replacing out was the right move for my win condition even if I *hadn't* gotten sick - the combination of the Curse interface, drawing scum so often lately [I hate playing single-faction scum under ordinary circumstances, and spent what little enjoyment I have for the alignment trying to pull out the win in Drury Lane], and the toxic playerbase dynamics [hoist by my own petard there - preserving that dynamic was a major motivation in the scum kills, especially the Nat kill] had left me completely demoralized and I might well have gotten lynched had I stayed in. I really need a break [hopefully not a permanent one] and/or trying that experimental "tell your reads but don't explain why" playstyle. A new forum interface wouldn't hurt, either* - the Curse change wrecked my preferred method of making Mafia posts [open individual posts I want to quote in separate tabs, write what I want to write, then preview for formatting/etc. and stitch everything together - it still works, kinda, but it feels ten times clunkier than it did on MafiaScum or the old MTGS, mainly due to the changed post reply window and the new and "improved" post preview].)
* - Never going to happen, I know. But still.
Specific notes:
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Quote from "Hoopla, in spectator chat" »
Also, I feel myself being won over by MTGS' claiming culture. L-2 seems a lot better if everyone in the game all adheres to that rule-of-thumb. Less chaotic, prevents disasters (while probably not a problem with these players, would definitely be worthwhile in almost every other game on MS) and gives more value to players' votes.
It's kind of funny watching MS warm up to the MTGS "claim at L-2" meta - partially because that meta used to be more common on 'Scum (I should know, I was one of the biggest proponents), but mostly because if either site should be claiming at L-2 it's [i]MafiaScum[/i], not MTGS.
See, the most important reason for claiming at L-2 isn't scum quickhammers (just lynch the quickhammerer the next day, though that's not always easy if the scum disguise their quickhammer with "oops" or deadline*) - it's to prevent inattentive/idiot *townies* from screwing things up (Porcelain Waltz is an obvious recent MTGS example, but I'm sure I could find dozens more by combing through Road to Rome, and that's *without* shenanigans like Fate baiting silavor to quickhammer back in Mafia Invictus). In short, enforcing claims at L-2 prevents VI shenanigans, and for various reasons (smaller playerbase, reduced playerbase churn, decreased emphasis on bandwagons) those shenanigans are less common on MTGS than on 'Scum.
* - Make absolutely no mistake, my D1 Fate hammer was a quickhammer: I saw a townie who read power unclaimed at L-1 and dropped the hammer before he could claim. The impending deadline was a secondary concern.
(Corellary: Ironically... the Cross-Town series had a much lower need for claims at L-2 than normal, due to the higher than average quality of the playerbase. Nobody who played in the series except *MAYBE* kpaca was likely to accidentally hammer as town.)
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Quote from "Oversoul/little lizard, in spectator chat" »
If MS had the play style of MTGS that would be awesome.
[backinmytimerant]
You know what really saddens me? [i]MafiaScum's playstyle used to strongly resemble MTGS's.[/i]
Just go back and look at MafiaScum games circa 2008-2009 (OGML's Satin Doll Showdown [Mini 594] is a spectacular example, but even games like Medieval, Stargate SG-1 - and that's just ones I played!) or even earlier (back when Fritzler/ibaesha/Stoofer, to name a few, were still around). Yes, the walls could get annoying, but you saw analysis and the game was fun to play. Now? Not so much.
I miss the old MafiaScum. I don't feel there's a place for me in the new one.
[/backinmytimerant]
[/kidsgetoffmylawn]
[/ifeelold]
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Quote from "Natirasha/HookerPunch, in spectator chat" »
I presume Tar killed me due to the late-day voting of him. Although it wasn't apparent since the game was in turbo 'day-went-on-and-mastin-walled-too-much' mode, I did hold the key to Tar's lynch the following day--I'd say Tar and I think the most alike and see similar things when it becomes apparent in games, and since I was using him as my stakepost this game(along with Nacho) my vote functionally controlled his fate.I probably could have pushed him through day one, but that's an admitted weakness to my game(laziness).
That was a large part of the reason, but not all of it. Paraphrasing the Mafia chat:
1) You were basically the Mafia 92 zwetschenwasser kill redux: a player with VI reputation who's better than his rep, had correctly read me (courtesy of knowing me better than most players), was widely read as town but (unlike mastin) was unlikely to be protected/watched, and read weakly power. (Why yes DGB, that N1 kill *did* have my fingerprints all over it.)
2) I thought you might be an investigative role, and I strongly suspected that you would point an investigation at me if you had one - that's the same reason we killed AG N1 in Drury (and lo and behold, AG was an investigative role that targeted me N1!).
3) You were the least disruptive kill to the (scum-favoring) gamestate. DGB, Thor, Nacho, and dC (for some godforsaken reason) were too useful as distractions, Iso was blocking a wagon on me (and at some level I didn't want to kill MTGS N1, since that might point to an MTGS-heavy team), ced was too null to kill, and we were worried about mastin drawing protection (especially Watcher).
There were two things that drew me to a NK on you: you suspected Azrael, and I thought you were the most likely surviving player to see through my facade and realize exactly what I was doing (Nacho was dead, mastin had only seen me as scum in multiscum and she didn't show any sign of remembering Mafia 92). You were scum with me in Pleasantville and presumably read the Mafia chat in Drury Lane, both games where I noted that I wanted to subvert my usual scum tendencies and go after townies (read: I'm bus-prone); moreover, I hadn't forgotten the endgame of Drury, where you spent the effort to read through the game and realized what was up with me after I had carefully spent most of the game trying to keep you distracted. I suspected that at some point you would realize that the reason that my attack on Az was sincere was because I *knew* he was scum, and at that point things would have been much more dicey.
And, of course, I just didn't want to make the same mistake twice - I wanted to kill you for most of the game in Drury but kept having other priorities. Not this time.
(Frankly, the biggest reason that killing you N2 wasn't a slam dunk [even more than my power read on Tammy] was because you suspected DGB; I thought DGB was the most likely final mislynch, and Thor/Iso/surviving scumteam looked like the most likely avenue to that.)
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Quote from "Hoopla, in spectator chat" »
[i]"Cyan's gonna win though. I don't think he's ever going to be caught"[/i]
As creative as the all-out-everyone-bus-each-other play is, it really feels like thin value in terms of what you get out of it. There's still so much risk you can't avoid, like PR's getting lucky overnight (going down to 1 or 2 scum early actually increases the potency of most PR's too), or a slew of confirmed-townies/obv-townies cropping up or surviving until endgame, meaning you get PoE'd. You just remove so many options and lock yourself into fewer specific victory paths. Realistically, if you're going to bus to the point where you're virtually powering through a scum lynch D1, you want to soak up enough town-credit to last the whole game and in a town like this, I don't think anyone is granting anyone a free ticket to lylo based solely on a good D1 bus. There's probably more value in hard-defending your buddies and working the so-obvious-wifom angle than hard-bussing them.
My prediction is a few players like Tammy/HookerPunch etc playing transparently town but unthreatening games and making deep into the game, with scum getting PoE'd. If Iso makes it deep too, then I really can't see much room for scum to hide.
There were two (well, really, three) things that drew me towards the Az bus D1:
1) Az looked like obvious scum. Like, *really* obvious - it's not a coincidence that every non-Az MTGS player was voting Az within the first ten pages. At that point, it's time to cut bait - aggressive bussing is the least bad option.
2) I figured that town might look for *one* scum bussing aggressively early. But *both* scum pulling the aggressive bus, on a player with a high reputation? That's unusual, and thus town would be less likely to pick up on it.
[3) I'd been trying to attack townies early as scum lately and kept drawing heavy suspicion for it - see both Drury and Dark Age of the Law on 'Scum - so I was less inclined to do that again.]
Of course, in hindsight, the absolute *best* scenario for scum was the one that actually happened: The Az bus failed and attention went elsewhere. That let me keep attacking Az for tone control and ignoring Cyan since his attacks sounded sincere while MafiaScum drove the discussion onto various townies (led by DGB and Thor degenerating into the kind of slapfight that loses games for towns - I think town!Tar would have put his foot down on that one early, though it's not certain since I have trouble reading both).
@Thor: Maybe I'm putting too much responsibility for the town's loss on you. But I have a high opinion of your play in general, and you just got stuck in some complete nonsense this game. Like you literally did not look at anything all game other than DGB, even when everyone else that was active was declaring DBG town.
First off, I looked at and commented on *many* things. I personally found it annoying how people never seemed to notice nor care. Heck, look at my play this game and find a situation that I *didn't* comment on. I dare you - I bet I can link you to my comment with ease. I did FOCUS on Kami, but that's because I wanted to lynch her. That is different than a mindless tunnel in my opinion.
I also am bothered that people feel I got "caught up in nonesense" this gmae. i waas hearing that for DAYS and it felt like a scum story that people decided to believe with no actual basis. Here's what I understood the situation to be;
1. Kami lied about meta with me to push my lynch (unless you care to buy her "100%" accuracy story about me...and if you do...well...say so)
2. I called her on the lie.
3. She defended the lie.
4. I called her scum.
5. She said I was scum for pushing that angle.
6. I said that made no sense
7. She stopped talking about it.
8. I kept calling her scum, and kept pointing out how she was evading the topic.
9. People called me "caught in nonsense"
10. Probably somewhere in there she dropped in her 'caught for the wrong reasons' malarky just to really make my day. Oh, and I wasn't caught for the wrong reasons - shock.
Look...if it was a reaction test - then as shown in a game I linked, she as town, lied, and I called her on it, she got a reaction from me, admitted it was a lie - AND I DROPPED THE POINT.
In this game, she lied, and then evaded discussing the thy or wherefore of the lie (which I thought made no town sense to lie about - because the only reaction you could get was negative...and apparently she decided that equaled scum). When someone lies in a game of mafia, does so to push a case on someone, and lacks any valid reaction reasoning, and then is shady about admitting they did it or discussing why they did it - then I am going to think that person is scum.
That is just an absolute tell in my mind.
I have no idea why anyone else saw it differently, or why they thought my stance was unusual.
I would love commentary on this - because I literally feel like all of you are talking absolute CRAZY when you suggest I was being unreasonable. Please, clue me in here, where is my logic flawed, or where did I fail to convey my issue?
I think "lynch all liars" is bunk. Every piece of evidence has a given weight, and if concentrate on one piece of evidence too heavily, or believe that a given activity can *always* or *only* or *most readily* be explained by a scum alignment, it can lock you into a tunnel.
I mean, it's not inconceivable for townies to lie, even when they shouldn't. Townies misplay or exaggerate or run their mouths off all the time. The key factor is figuring out why they're behaving the way they're behaving, and what alignment(s) it best fits under. In Kami's case, I think she was so tilted and upset with you, that refusing to admit fault was not at all an unexpected human reaction. I'd go so far as to say that it would take a person with uncommon self-control and honesty to admit fault in that spat, with the argument between you becoming as polarized as it did.
You're more than smart enough to figure that out, but you convinced yourself that you didn't need to think it through, that you could take the mental shortcut to "lying = scum". That was where you misstepped, I think.
Under a standpoint that believes in classical tells like anti-town actions, and lying, Kami was guilty as sin.
Under an analysis that looked at tone and motivation, I think her true alignment was being broadcast pretty clearly. Given a choice between those two styles of analysis, I'll pick the latter every time.
@Thor - I agree with you and, again, it was one of the main reasons (along with how strange her approach toward Az was D1) that I decided I was going to try to get the mislynch on her. When people get cased or someone presses them hard on a point and they actively avoid it, I have trouble reading that any way other than scummy. I know that some people think this looks like they aren't worried about the points you're making and makes them appear to be more town, but I've always thought the opposite (on minor points or observations, sure, but on entire cases or direct confrontation like you were approaching - don't get it).
Only 50% of the responsibility of being Town is scum-hunting, the other 50% is keeping people satisfied that you're town - I'd argue that the latter is probably more important than the former, actually.
Az was never town and you should have picked that up on Day 1...like every MTGS player did in this game.
FWIW, Thor, a large portion of why I was willing to vote her over Az, aside from the buddying between the two, was your own argument against her - if it makes you feel any better.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hm, that Zen case was really scum-driven.
Did you ever read my analysis of it?
It could have gone either way. Zen was barely playing, he read me wrong right out of the gate (I also had to deal with persistent wrong reads from Thor & Iso), and I thought he was a good lynch myself as a townie.
Yes, all true, but if you look at how the case was built, it was a salespitch instead of a case.
The fact that Zen was acting scummy doesn't change that.
That's kind of you to say so, Kami. *shrugs* I feel my scum game was really uneven, there were some pretty tricky moves I attempted in terms of seeding false townie tells and manipulating people that I was making up on the fly, interspersed with a lot of pretty dumb blunders/inability to maintain the facade of my town mindset.
I dunno that sounding like a sales pitch is really a scum tell for me; I think all my cases and a lot of other people's are written that way. Maybe your gut saw something else in that case that hit you wrong, something artificial in the tone or the way it was written, that you haven't quite put your finger on.
Yes, quite possible. I haven't played with you enough to know for sure.
Gut is a strong tool in mafia. The hard thing is convincing others why the gut is correct
I think "lynch all liars" is bunk. Every piece of evidence has a given weight, and if concentrate on one piece of evidence too heavily, or believe that a given activity can *always* or *only* or *most readily* be explained by a scum alignment, it can lock you into a tunnel.
I mean, it's not inconceivable for townies to lie, even when they shouldn't. Townies misplay or exaggerate or run their mouths off all the time. The key factor is figuring out why they're behaving the way they're behaving, and what alignment(s) it best fits under. In Kami's case, I think she was so tilted and upset with you, that refusing to admit fault was not at all an unexpected human reaction. I'd go so far as to say that it would take a person with uncommon self-control and honesty to admit fault in that spat, with the argument between you becoming as polarized as it did.
You're more than smart enough to figure that out, but you convinced yourself that you didn't need to think it through, that you could take the mental shortcut to "lying = scum". That was where you misstepped, I think.
Under a standpoint that believes in classical tells like anti-town actions, and lying, Kami was guilty as sin.
Under an analysis that looked at tone and motivation, I think her true alignment was being broadcast pretty clearly. Given a choice between those two styles of analysis, I'll pick the latter every time.
You call it a mental shortcut - okay. But, as shown, i actually broke down and presented my thoughts of 'here is why she'd do it as town, and here is why she'd do it as scum' and came up with nothing to justify it for town - I then asked her.
And she didn't choose to respond.
And then I tunneled.
Why was that a lazy or poor move on my part in your opinion?
FWIW, Thor, a large portion of why I was willing to vote her over Az, aside from the buddying between the two, was your own argument against her - if it makes you feel any better.
It does - I'm just curious about the thought process of the people suggesting that what I did was, in effect, the doom of the town. I find that a silly and unsupportable stance to take and find my play to have bad elements, but suggest I am hardly alone in that as I think many people played poorly in this game, and also that as far as my issue with Kami goes, though I find most of the blame on her end and a lesser amount on mine, I am chagrined that multiple people seem to find her somehow blameless, which is what I'm trying to figure out. She lied, then refused to discuss it - that's bad play in my book. Now, maybe other people can disagree it's a scum case...okay, I disagree, but...even if it's not a total scum case people should have been willing to talk to me about it instead of acting like what she did was fine. unless people are looking to argue that it *is* fine in which case I would benefit from having it explained as to 'why' it is fine, because I massively disagree with every belief I have about how the game should be played.
I mean, I could start lying and refusing to discuss it if that's what town play is nowadays - but people need to talk me through that. I missed the memo.
It was an exaggeration insomuch as what she said was absolutely not true and used weird logic to justify itself.
The alignment tell was not in the lie though, the alignment tell was in that she wouldn't talk about the lie and used me reacting negatively towards her for lying as a scumtell and in that she had no reason to lie about it.
You call it a mental shortcut - okay. But, as shown, i actually broke down and presented my thoughts of 'here is why she'd do it as town, and here is why she'd do it as scum' and came up with nothing to justify it for town - I then asked her.
And she didn't choose to respond.
And then I tunneled.
Why was that a lazy or poor move on my part in your opinion?
It's very understandable, but probably short-sighted. I've run into situations where I got really upset with town players because of the ridiculous tactics they were using, the completely destructive and hostile things they were saying, and they weren't genuinely making an effort to work with me at all.
Despite that, other people in the town would be able to step back and correctly read that person. Sometimes, it just takes the objectivity to ignore how unhelpful or non-compliant the person you're casing is being, and switch over to considering alternate hypotheses of your own and looking over other pieces of evidence like emotion, attitude, and tone.
I hear you talking, Az, but note that really you appear to be debating the fine art of telling anti-town play from pro-scum play, which is, to my mind, one of the most difficult and fine lines to perceive in the game. I can agree I should have done it better in this game, if that's your point. But I will stand by my originally stated point of 'if that's what went wrong, I don't think the 'blame Thor' stance is a valid one as far as this game goes' which is what I was questioning when people originally indicated that I had torpedoed town somehow more than anyone else.
@DGB - I am trying to understand the stance of other people, I am not trying to explain why you are scum. Please allow me to try to improve myself for next game - I have already agreed to avoid you like the plague in the future - feel free to not read my posts.
Blaming you is pretty unfair. There were a lot of different things that went wrong for the town here. *Any* of the MS players could have switched to vote me. Nacho, Kami, and Zen could have handled their defenses better. Languid could have refrained from voting Kami. The people who replaced out could have stuck around. And so on.
@Kami: You'd best not try that in a game around here, though, unless you like being lynched day 1 as scum.
...of course, if I'm town in the same game, be my guest.
@Thor: I'd hardly say it was purely your fault; in fact, I say Zen and Nacho are both far more culpable, especially the latter. But it doesn't change how all of you managed to totally misread scum-Azrael, who was so obvious that both his own teammates decided they needed to bus him to the ground - and both you and Kami managed to continue that misread all the way to the final day, which sticks in my head specifically for that one point when Az was at virtual L-1 (with me having said that I'd be perfectly willing to lynch him) and you basically said that if the choices were Az and no-lynch, you'd snort and vote Kami.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It sucks that I got spoiled just as I was getting back into the game. I guessed the scum team correctly on my way out the door though >_>. (To the mod)
I really don't think it's fair to be all each of you misread Azrael bla bla bla though. I mean you're right but save nacho none of us had experience with Azrael and I know for my part after reading through a few of his Isos in previous games and trying to get you guys to talk about that read was difficult. Cyan answered some of my questions but I think descoures ignored my attempts to get him to explain. That was not helpful. I wouldn't have even wanted him lynched right away as caught scum as I'd have wanted people to talk some for analysis later.
Thor - I don't think you realize that you can bring on situations like what happened in this game with you and dgb. Sometimes the things you say to people and the way it comes across can cause them to just dig their heels in and remain stubborn, and then communication just isn't likely to happen. I'd submit that starting off the game talking about how you'd policy lynch someone already sets a tone that makes it less likely you're going to be able to work with that person or get them to back down on something.
Also, can you just realize that attempting to read me by my emotions is not your forte, that you wouldn't know what to look for in the first place (as evidenced by here), and steer clear of focusing on them instead of the game? That'd be great. People typically can't give an emotional breakdown on command, and when someone says they can't deal with that anyway, chances are they just can't.
I was slightly amused a couple people thought my slot could be scum even after knowing I left for being spoiled.
Rhand I remember you from the pornography game. I wish I'd have gotten to play with you again.
Thanks for running the game prophylaxis! It was fun playing with you guys. Good game scum team!
I also thought it was funny the scum team thought I was a pr. I don't know why, but there have been a few times I've sent off pr vibes to the scum team when I've just been a vt.
@dC - mildly in my defense, I didn't townread Az until the final day, Not the best time to do it, but I was actually the MS player supporting that lynch for a substantial part of the day - as I recall my support even got me some heat Day 1 for how I did it. I'll agree my reads on the last day were useless...but you guys mostly all lurked and left me with Az who was putting in effort and I eventually equated the effort and the emotions I was getting with a townish vibe. Don't leave town alone with scum is a mantra I always teach Newbies in Newbie games.
@Tammy - I don't think I ever claimed to be able to read your emotions, and even when you were discussing that with me you were pointing out how I had little to no experience with your emotion tells and I openly agreed with you on that, though said I was attempting to understand it.
@Tammy - also, I will admit "people digging in their heels due to Thor's style" doesn't quite sell me on a justification for the issues I thought I was expressing. I will agree I have a style that attempts to force reactions - but I disagree that my style is so poisonous that people need to start playing anti-town as a 'up yers' to me.
I doubt you'll take advice from me, but I think your downfall is your complete inability to change your mind in the face of new evidence. I was trying to point out to you that you should be looking at other things in the game, but you pretty much refused to. The game was reduced to a single post: DGB said she could read me and that was a lie. Other than that one post, there was virtually no game worthy of notice, and I posted nothing else, either. Nothing counted but that one post.
With Tammy, it's failure to know it's time to disengage. It's fine to create reactions; you did just that. But her reaction was that of frustrated town. Once you make this judgement, you can say: OK you're town never mind. Or if after she reacts, you still can't read her... there is no point getting her to continue with that same reaction, except deeper and more extreme. You have to let go. There was nothing to be gained by making Tammy even more miserable. Why persist?
From my end I tend to see this inflexibility as something much more likely to be born of following a strict scum agenda, than from a townie who fumbles in the dark not knowing who his team mates are. Even as I was partly reading you as town in the end (look! I can change my mind and nothing bad happened!), your inability to consider other possibilities dragged you back into a scum read.
I doubt you'll take advice from me, but I think your downfall is your complete inability to change your mind in the face of new evidence. I was trying to point out to you that you should be looking at other things in the game, but you pretty much refused to. The game was reduced to a single post: DGB said she could read me and that was a lie. Other than that one post, there was virtually no game worthy of notice, and I posted nothing else, either. Nothing counted but that one post.
Why did you avoid talking with me about my issue during the game like you did in the SoIaF game?
I never changed my mind because, in my opinion, I never got the new evidence. I never got any further evidence at all, I was left at the end of a road wanting to know what the path looked like, and you seemed to lack any desire to bring a light around.
I also will admit I disagree that I had a single point, though will agree I was strongly focused on my case on you - but as I said earlier, I can't think of an important subject that I didn't address in the game.
With Tammy, it's failure to know it's time to disengage. It's fine to create reactions; you did just that. But her reaction was that of frustrated town. Once you make this judgement, you can say: OK you're town never mind. Or if after she reacts, you still can't read her... there is no point getting her to continue with that same reaction, except deeper and more extreme. You have to let go. There was nothing to be gained by making Tammy even more miserable. Why persist?
I persisted because of two reasons;
1. What I had seen so far felt easy to fake - I could certainly fake that level of reaction.
2. The other game I had seen the tell used, her reaction had been different - and that was the type of reaction I was looking for.
To a minor extent the 'I don't want to give you a reaction' commentary from her also felt like something scum would say as an 'out' from the tell.
Private Mod Note
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Sad to see Arnnaria take a break, but definitely appreciated all the work you've put in here over the years, and not simply in this particular game.
Sorry to see you go, Arn. It's been good.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I meant before the Jaguar vote. My first reaction would have been to read the case and point out to everyone why the case was wrong so I wouldn't get votes on me. I think it was less the case itself and more your reaction to it that iced it.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
After you showed as a power role, I was slapping myself in the forehead for not remembering to pick up on your "don't make me destroy you" thing being an actual power role tell. I think I got so far into character that I convinced myself that that was just something I should disregard. D'oh.
Oh yeah, I forgot I did that.
That was basically my, "If you make me activate my role, I will punish you dearly for it," response.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I was looking for the clip where Gohan says it to Cell, but I'll just settle for how it would've went down being like this:
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah.
It was because you lied yo get a reaction and then chose not to admit it nor to address it and instead called me scum because I reacted negatively to it.
That kind of caught my attention.
I will happily never play with you again.
Echoed, except that instead of 'taking glee' replace 'smack face into palm liberally'.
Seriously, the only MS player I felt was legitimately good this game was LanguidJaguar.
------------------------------------------
The vast majority of my frustration goes entirely to all of those players who were town-reading you for blatant mimicry of emotion.
With one exception. I feel the personal digs were beneath you. Now, in the abstract, I know exactly what you were doing - playing up to the [expletive self-redacted] MS townie meta, which is apparently being an overemotional [expletive self-redacted], but that didn't make it much less annoying. I did have to check myself several times from going into a real tirade, and I won't hesitate to say that if you ever do it again in a game with me and I have a killing role, I will take that as an auto scum-tell and kill you sight unseen.
But yes. Other than that, every iota of my annoyance with this game goes instead to everyone who blocked your lynch, multiple times.
In actual fact, I did have Azrael and Cyan as scum together - specifically for two reasons. The first is ancient history - I still remember Cyan, as scum, conspiring in-thread with a town player to kill one of his own teammates on early day 1, so I would never have cleared Cyan for his position on Azrael anyway. The second, and the real reason, was that post where he was giving tips to Azrael about securing his internet connection on his cruise. That didn't sound at all like something a Cyan actually wanting Azrael dead would say - instead, it sounded very much like 'please be on if a quicklynch opportunity shows up'.
I didn't say anything, however, because that was predicated on Azrael being scum, and I figured if I said anything he'd just NK me and then everyone else would clear him based on Azrael flipping scum. Meh.
If any scum slot had me fooled, it was the Taredas slot, i.e. yours. I had him read as fairly town the whole while. The point at which I started to be suspicious of your slot was only in the same post where you declare Kami and Cyan as scum, because while convincing on the surface, it was prone to all the same logical discrepancies that Azrael was guilty of all game - thus the questions I aimed at you. Of course, that was far too little, far too late.
-------------
On balance, though, well played to the mafia. Cyan and Taredas played more than well enough, and while I don't think Azrael played particularly well, he definitely managed to manipulate the MS side masterfully.
Still, I'm highly unsure if I actually want to participate in the MS side of this series, given that, if I was going by this game alone, LanguidJaguar is literally the only MS player I'd want on my team.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
And why is that?
I can't think of a single MS player in this entire game cycle that claimed the players here were bad players.
And yes, Thor, that's the keyword - this game. I was impressed by you in the first two games, and Nacho in the first. Here? Not so much. And Zen's showing was particularly poor, I feel, especially where he didn't even bother to show up to claim.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Nacho was 50%
People have bad games - bad games exist. That doesn't mean they are inherently bad players nor that a given site is inherently bad either.
I do think that multiple players failed to perform to hoped for standards in this game.
This game might be my least favorite game of all time.
I don't think anything should be judged by that.
Besides me and DGB agreeing to never play together again because we clearly have gone down incompatible roads as far as playstyle.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I did this because selling cruises is my job, so it's something I know alot about and I just wanted to be helpful. This post would have happened regardless of my alignment. Ironically, I truly wanted Az dead, because I thought it was necessary for us to win(the scum chat reflects this).
@Thor: Maybe I'm putting too much responsibility for the town's loss on you. But I have a high opinion of your play in general, and you just got stuck in some complete nonsense this game. Like you literally did not look at anything all game other than DGB, even when everyone else that was active was declaring DBG town.
I noticed how Cyan was so different than what I am used to from him.
I always think he's scum and he's been town every time, and now i got townvibes from him. I just knew there was something wrong but didn't act on it :/
I really thought that Kami should have engaged the point he was making more - it would have probably gotten him to redirect... and that's one of the reasons I picked Kami to pursue because she's not big on defending herself, she's more interested in waving away cases - which I normally associate more often with scum.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I'll provide scores (if anyone cares about those) and postgame commentary soon.
(Honestly, even more than needing to replace out here, what bothers me is that I think that replacing out was the right move for my win condition even if I *hadn't* gotten sick - the combination of the Curse interface, drawing scum so often lately [I hate playing single-faction scum under ordinary circumstances, and spent what little enjoyment I have for the alignment trying to pull out the win in Drury Lane], and the toxic playerbase dynamics [hoist by my own petard there - preserving that dynamic was a major motivation in the scum kills, especially the Nat kill] had left me completely demoralized and I might well have gotten lynched had I stayed in. I really need a break [hopefully not a permanent one] and/or trying that experimental "tell your reads but don't explain why" playstyle. A new forum interface wouldn't hurt, either* - the Curse change wrecked my preferred method of making Mafia posts [open individual posts I want to quote in separate tabs, write what I want to write, then preview for formatting/etc. and stitch everything together - it still works, kinda, but it feels ten times clunkier than it did on MafiaScum or the old MTGS, mainly due to the changed post reply window and the new and "improved" post preview].)
* - Never going to happen, I know. But still.
Specific notes:
---
It's kind of funny watching MS warm up to the MTGS "claim at L-2" meta - partially because that meta used to be more common on 'Scum (I should know, I was one of the biggest proponents), but mostly because if either site should be claiming at L-2 it's [i]MafiaScum[/i], not MTGS.
See, the most important reason for claiming at L-2 isn't scum quickhammers (just lynch the quickhammerer the next day, though that's not always easy if the scum disguise their quickhammer with "oops" or deadline*) - it's to prevent inattentive/idiot *townies* from screwing things up (Porcelain Waltz is an obvious recent MTGS example, but I'm sure I could find dozens more by combing through Road to Rome, and that's *without* shenanigans like Fate baiting silavor to quickhammer back in Mafia Invictus). In short, enforcing claims at L-2 prevents VI shenanigans, and for various reasons (smaller playerbase, reduced playerbase churn, decreased emphasis on bandwagons) those shenanigans are less common on MTGS than on 'Scum.
* - Make absolutely no mistake, my D1 Fate hammer was a quickhammer: I saw a townie who read power unclaimed at L-1 and dropped the hammer before he could claim. The impending deadline was a secondary concern.
(Corellary: Ironically... the Cross-Town series had a much lower need for claims at L-2 than normal, due to the higher than average quality of the playerbase. Nobody who played in the series except *MAYBE* kpaca was likely to accidentally hammer as town.)
---
[backinmytimerant]
You know what really saddens me? [i]MafiaScum's playstyle used to strongly resemble MTGS's.[/i]
Just go back and look at MafiaScum games circa 2008-2009 (OGML's Satin Doll Showdown [Mini 594] is a spectacular example, but even games like Medieval, Stargate SG-1 - and that's just ones I played!) or even earlier (back when Fritzler/ibaesha/Stoofer, to name a few, were still around). Yes, the walls could get annoying, but you saw analysis and the game was fun to play. Now? Not so much.
I miss the old MafiaScum. I don't feel there's a place for me in the new one.
[/backinmytimerant]
[/kidsgetoffmylawn]
[/ifeelold]
---
That was a large part of the reason, but not all of it. Paraphrasing the Mafia chat:
1) You were basically the Mafia 92 zwetschenwasser kill redux: a player with VI reputation who's better than his rep, had correctly read me (courtesy of knowing me better than most players), was widely read as town but (unlike mastin) was unlikely to be protected/watched, and read weakly power. (Why yes DGB, that N1 kill *did* have my fingerprints all over it.)
2) I thought you might be an investigative role, and I strongly suspected that you would point an investigation at me if you had one - that's the same reason we killed AG N1 in Drury (and lo and behold, AG was an investigative role that targeted me N1!).
3) You were the least disruptive kill to the (scum-favoring) gamestate. DGB, Thor, Nacho, and dC (for some godforsaken reason) were too useful as distractions, Iso was blocking a wagon on me (and at some level I didn't want to kill MTGS N1, since that might point to an MTGS-heavy team), ced was too null to kill, and we were worried about mastin drawing protection (especially Watcher).
---
Not as inexplicable as you might think.
There were two things that drew me to a NK on you: you suspected Azrael, and I thought you were the most likely surviving player to see through my facade and realize exactly what I was doing (Nacho was dead, mastin had only seen me as scum in multiscum and she didn't show any sign of remembering Mafia 92). You were scum with me in Pleasantville and presumably read the Mafia chat in Drury Lane, both games where I noted that I wanted to subvert my usual scum tendencies and go after townies (read: I'm bus-prone); moreover, I hadn't forgotten the endgame of Drury, where you spent the effort to read through the game and realized what was up with me after I had carefully spent most of the game trying to keep you distracted. I suspected that at some point you would realize that the reason that my attack on Az was sincere was because I *knew* he was scum, and at that point things would have been much more dicey.
And, of course, I just didn't want to make the same mistake twice - I wanted to kill you for most of the game in Drury but kept having other priorities. Not this time.
(Frankly, the biggest reason that killing you N2 wasn't a slam dunk [even more than my power read on Tammy] was because you suspected DGB; I thought DGB was the most likely final mislynch, and Thor/Iso/surviving scumteam looked like the most likely avenue to that.)
---
There were two (well, really, three) things that drew me towards the Az bus D1:
1) Az looked like obvious scum. Like, *really* obvious - it's not a coincidence that every non-Az MTGS player was voting Az within the first ten pages. At that point, it's time to cut bait - aggressive bussing is the least bad option.
2) I figured that town might look for *one* scum bussing aggressively early. But *both* scum pulling the aggressive bus, on a player with a high reputation? That's unusual, and thus town would be less likely to pick up on it.
[3) I'd been trying to attack townies early as scum lately and kept drawing heavy suspicion for it - see both Drury and Dark Age of the Law on 'Scum - so I was less inclined to do that again.]
Of course, in hindsight, the absolute *best* scenario for scum was the one that actually happened: The Az bus failed and attention went elsewhere. That let me keep attacking Az for tone control and ignoring Cyan since his attacks sounded sincere while MafiaScum drove the discussion onto various townies (led by DGB and Thor degenerating into the kind of slapfight that loses games for towns - I think town!Tar would have put his foot down on that one early, though it's not certain since I have trouble reading both).
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
First off, I looked at and commented on *many* things. I personally found it annoying how people never seemed to notice nor care. Heck, look at my play this game and find a situation that I *didn't* comment on. I dare you - I bet I can link you to my comment with ease. I did FOCUS on Kami, but that's because I wanted to lynch her. That is different than a mindless tunnel in my opinion.
I also am bothered that people feel I got "caught up in nonesense" this gmae. i waas hearing that for DAYS and it felt like a scum story that people decided to believe with no actual basis. Here's what I understood the situation to be;
1. Kami lied about meta with me to push my lynch (unless you care to buy her "100%" accuracy story about me...and if you do...well...say so)
2. I called her on the lie.
3. She defended the lie.
4. I called her scum.
5. She said I was scum for pushing that angle.
6. I said that made no sense
7. She stopped talking about it.
8. I kept calling her scum, and kept pointing out how she was evading the topic.
9. People called me "caught in nonsense"
10. Probably somewhere in there she dropped in her 'caught for the wrong reasons' malarky just to really make my day. Oh, and I wasn't caught for the wrong reasons - shock.
Look...if it was a reaction test - then as shown in a game I linked, she as town, lied, and I called her on it, she got a reaction from me, admitted it was a lie - AND I DROPPED THE POINT.
In this game, she lied, and then evaded discussing the thy or wherefore of the lie (which I thought made no town sense to lie about - because the only reaction you could get was negative...and apparently she decided that equaled scum). When someone lies in a game of mafia, does so to push a case on someone, and lacks any valid reaction reasoning, and then is shady about admitting they did it or discussing why they did it - then I am going to think that person is scum.
That is just an absolute tell in my mind.
I have no idea why anyone else saw it differently, or why they thought my stance was unusual.
I would love commentary on this - because I literally feel like all of you are talking absolute CRAZY when you suggest I was being unreasonable. Please, clue me in here, where is my logic flawed, or where did I fail to convey my issue?
I mean, it's not inconceivable for townies to lie, even when they shouldn't. Townies misplay or exaggerate or run their mouths off all the time. The key factor is figuring out why they're behaving the way they're behaving, and what alignment(s) it best fits under. In Kami's case, I think she was so tilted and upset with you, that refusing to admit fault was not at all an unexpected human reaction. I'd go so far as to say that it would take a person with uncommon self-control and honesty to admit fault in that spat, with the argument between you becoming as polarized as it did.
You're more than smart enough to figure that out, but you convinced yourself that you didn't need to think it through, that you could take the mental shortcut to "lying = scum". That was where you misstepped, I think.
Under a standpoint that believes in classical tells like anti-town actions, and lying, Kami was guilty as sin.
Under an analysis that looked at tone and motivation, I think her true alignment was being broadcast pretty clearly. Given a choice between those two styles of analysis, I'll pick the latter every time.
Only 50% of the responsibility of being Town is scum-hunting, the other 50% is keeping people satisfied that you're town - I'd argue that the latter is probably more important than the former, actually.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
FWIW, Thor, a large portion of why I was willing to vote her over Az, aside from the buddying between the two, was your own argument against her - if it makes you feel any better.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
IMHO, Azrael's was perhaps the best scum performance I've ever seen.
When I'm scum I just troll... I should learn from the master.
Did you ever read my analysis of it?
It could have gone either way. Zen was barely playing, he read me wrong right out of the gate (I also had to deal with persistent wrong reads from Thor & Iso), and I thought he was a good lynch myself as a townie.
The fact that Zen was acting scummy doesn't change that.
I dunno that sounding like a sales pitch is really a scum tell for me; I think all my cases and a lot of other people's are written that way. Maybe your gut saw something else in that case that hit you wrong, something artificial in the tone or the way it was written, that you haven't quite put your finger on.
Gut is a strong tool in mafia. The hard thing is convincing others why the gut is correct
You call it a mental shortcut - okay. But, as shown, i actually broke down and presented my thoughts of 'here is why she'd do it as town, and here is why she'd do it as scum' and came up with nothing to justify it for town - I then asked her.
And she didn't choose to respond.
And then I tunneled.
Why was that a lazy or poor move on my part in your opinion?
It does - I'm just curious about the thought process of the people suggesting that what I did was, in effect, the doom of the town. I find that a silly and unsupportable stance to take and find my play to have bad elements, but suggest I am hardly alone in that as I think many people played poorly in this game, and also that as far as my issue with Kami goes, though I find most of the blame on her end and a lesser amount on mine, I am chagrined that multiple people seem to find her somehow blameless, which is what I'm trying to figure out. She lied, then refused to discuss it - that's bad play in my book. Now, maybe other people can disagree it's a scum case...okay, I disagree, but...even if it's not a total scum case people should have been willing to talk to me about it instead of acting like what she did was fine. unless people are looking to argue that it *is* fine in which case I would benefit from having it explained as to 'why' it is fine, because I massively disagree with every belief I have about how the game should be played.
I mean, I could start lying and refusing to discuss it if that's what town play is nowadays - but people need to talk me through that. I missed the memo.
I think I said that somewhere.
The alignment tell was not in the lie though, the alignment tell was in that she wouldn't talk about the lie and used me reacting negatively towards her for lying as a scumtell and in that she had no reason to lie about it.
It's very understandable, but probably short-sighted. I've run into situations where I got really upset with town players because of the ridiculous tactics they were using, the completely destructive and hostile things they were saying, and they weren't genuinely making an effort to work with me at all.
Despite that, other people in the town would be able to step back and correctly read that person. Sometimes, it just takes the objectivity to ignore how unhelpful or non-compliant the person you're casing is being, and switch over to considering alternate hypotheses of your own and looking over other pieces of evidence like emotion, attitude, and tone.
@DGB - I am trying to understand the stance of other people, I am not trying to explain why you are scum. Please allow me to try to improve myself for next game - I have already agreed to avoid you like the plague in the future - feel free to not read my posts.
...of course, if I'm town in the same game, be my guest.
@Thor: I'd hardly say it was purely your fault; in fact, I say Zen and Nacho are both far more culpable, especially the latter. But it doesn't change how all of you managed to totally misread scum-Azrael, who was so obvious that both his own teammates decided they needed to bus him to the ground - and both you and Kami managed to continue that misread all the way to the final day, which sticks in my head specifically for that one point when Az was at virtual L-1 (with me having said that I'd be perfectly willing to lynch him) and you basically said that if the choices were Az and no-lynch, you'd snort and vote Kami.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
So...1/3 of the playerbase
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=10193
I really don't think it's fair to be all each of you misread Azrael bla bla bla though. I mean you're right but save nacho none of us had experience with Azrael and I know for my part after reading through a few of his Isos in previous games and trying to get you guys to talk about that read was difficult. Cyan answered some of my questions but I think descoures ignored my attempts to get him to explain. That was not helpful. I wouldn't have even wanted him lynched right away as caught scum as I'd have wanted people to talk some for analysis later.
Thor - I don't think you realize that you can bring on situations like what happened in this game with you and dgb. Sometimes the things you say to people and the way it comes across can cause them to just dig their heels in and remain stubborn, and then communication just isn't likely to happen. I'd submit that starting off the game talking about how you'd policy lynch someone already sets a tone that makes it less likely you're going to be able to work with that person or get them to back down on something.
Also, can you just realize that attempting to read me by my emotions is not your forte, that you wouldn't know what to look for in the first place (as evidenced by here), and steer clear of focusing on them instead of the game? That'd be great. People typically can't give an emotional breakdown on command, and when someone says they can't deal with that anyway, chances are they just can't.
I was slightly amused a couple people thought my slot could be scum even after knowing I left for being spoiled.
Rhand I remember you from the pornography game. I wish I'd have gotten to play with you again.
Thanks for running the game prophylaxis! It was fun playing with you guys. Good game scum team!
I also thought it was funny the scum team thought I was a pr. I don't know why, but there have been a few times I've sent off pr vibes to the scum team when I've just been a vt.
@Tammy - I don't think I ever claimed to be able to read your emotions, and even when you were discussing that with me you were pointing out how I had little to no experience with your emotion tells and I openly agreed with you on that, though said I was attempting to understand it.
With Tammy, it's failure to know it's time to disengage. It's fine to create reactions; you did just that. But her reaction was that of frustrated town. Once you make this judgement, you can say: OK you're town never mind. Or if after she reacts, you still can't read her... there is no point getting her to continue with that same reaction, except deeper and more extreme. You have to let go. There was nothing to be gained by making Tammy even more miserable. Why persist?
From my end I tend to see this inflexibility as something much more likely to be born of following a strict scum agenda, than from a townie who fumbles in the dark not knowing who his team mates are. Even as I was partly reading you as town in the end (look! I can change my mind and nothing bad happened!), your inability to consider other possibilities dragged you back into a scum read.
Why did you avoid talking with me about my issue during the game like you did in the SoIaF game?
I never changed my mind because, in my opinion, I never got the new evidence. I never got any further evidence at all, I was left at the end of a road wanting to know what the path looked like, and you seemed to lack any desire to bring a light around.
I also will admit I disagree that I had a single point, though will agree I was strongly focused on my case on you - but as I said earlier, I can't think of an important subject that I didn't address in the game.
I persisted because of two reasons;
1. What I had seen so far felt easy to fake - I could certainly fake that level of reaction.
2. The other game I had seen the tell used, her reaction had been different - and that was the type of reaction I was looking for.
To a minor extent the 'I don't want to give you a reaction' commentary from her also felt like something scum would say as an 'out' from the tell.