I don't think anything is outright suspicious at the moment. I won't wait around forever to vote, but I'll at least give people the night to filter in before I start to charge in.
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See now the person who comes in and talks fondly about random votes and then votes based on the lack of random votes when there has been quite a bit of conversation? That I'll vote.
Vote Wildfire393
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See now the person who comes in and talks fondly about random votes and then votes based on the lack of random votes when there has been quite a bit of conversation? That I'll vote.
Vote Wildfire393
This reinforces why Dels deserves the vote and you don't - at least you're engaging.
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To be fair in your original post you made it seem like me and dels were pretty even. If you are town, I would ask that you perhaps lead with the whole "this isn't a joke vote, I am voting this person for defending someone and shutting down discussion, while the other fellow I mentioned has been better" instead of waiting. It is kind of burying the lead, I think.
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Dels I don't think that question needs to be asked. The reasoning you posted seemed pretty serious to me! Instead of questioning, how about you discuss what he actually said about defending me and shutting down discussion? Do you refuse them as scummy actions? Share with the class.
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But I didn't defend you, Dels. I just attacked his approach. I would have thought you would have had something to share in terms of disagreement with the claims themselves. While I want to see how he posts about this, I'd also like to hear you respond about what he brought up. Also I kind of got the sense you did parrot my previous post, more or less. Not the words but certainly the point.
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I think we're past that, Wildfire. There have been other things to comment on.
I mean, there's also the fact that you've been speaking for and defending Chris and seem to want to shut down discussion.
So your vote was serious? Because everything in your original post made it seem like it was just a "random vote" because I'm new.
It was more because you avoided RVSing than just because you were new here. It's surprising how many scum can be caught just by looking for people who RVS wrong (either avoiding voting or voting non-entities).
Looking at your posts and how you've been shooting down every accusation without actual fostering any meaningful discussion, yeah, this became a serious vote.
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So let me ask this question. Why are you assuming an extremely experienced mafia player from a different site would have the same random voting meta you do?
You're right. Ultimately, I did parrot you. Because you pointed out that same issue with his vote too. Whoops.
He says that I've been "speaking for and defending" you. This isn't true. I questioned BE about why he was voting you. This was moreso an attempt at analyzing BE's thoughts, and not an attempt at defending you. I don't think you need me to defend you.
He says I seem to want to shut down discussion. This also seems wrong to me. I've been around and have been one of the only people actually discussing things. I suppose you could accuse me of attempting to shut down discussion if you consider that I've tried to shut down BE's reasons for voting people. But that would display a very elementary understanding of the game.
Ultimately, the biggest thing against Wildfire is the way he placed his vote. For exactly the reasons you said. I interpreted it as nothing but a random vote. "Hey, these guys are new, I'll random vote one of them because they didn't random vote! Hehehe" Then we both called him out on that and he changes his tune. Suddenly, its a serious vote. Why on me? Because apparently, you are more engaging than I am.
My first impression upon just reading his initial post with the vote was that he came into the topic probably still thinking it was early enough to do a random vote, and even after seeing that we had gotten past that and were discussing real things, he refused to adapt. Therefore, his post feels too planned out. Like that is what he wanted to say, regardless of what had actually happened in the game. This is a mindset I'd associate with scum.
I do wonder how natural a reaction it is to compliment someone when they vote you. That is a bit slick feeling. I'll stick with my vote for now and see where this goes. I always tend to worry when someone who I vote compliments me.
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Looks like Plum parroted both of us by asking the same exact question about Wilfire's vote. Hah! Though Plum's question was serious. And I can't blame him for asking, it is a pretty confusing vote.
You're right. Ultimately, I did parrot you. Because you pointed out that same issue with his vote too. Whoops.
He says that I've been "speaking for and defending" you. This isn't true. I questioned BE about why he was voting you. This was moreso an attempt at analyzing BE's thoughts, and not an attempt at defending you. I don't think you need me to defend you.
He says I seem to want to shut down discussion. This also seems wrong to me. I've been around and have been one of the only people actually discussing things. I suppose you could accuse me of attempting to shut down discussion if you consider that I've tried to shut down BE's reasons for voting people. But that would display a very elementary understanding of the game.
Ultimately, the biggest thing against Wildfire is the way he placed his vote. For exactly the reasons you said. I interpreted it as nothing but a random vote. "Hey, these guys are new, I'll random vote one of them because they didn't random vote! Hehehe" Then we both called him out on that and he changes his tune. Suddenly, its a serious vote. Why on me? Because apparently, you are more engaging than I am.
My first impression upon just reading his initial post with the vote was that he came into the topic probably still thinking it was early enough to do a random vote, and even after seeing that we had gotten past that and were discussing real things, he refused to adapt. Therefore, his post feels too planned out. Like that is what he wanted to say, regardless of what had actually happened in the game. This is a mindset I'd associate with scum.
So here, you've got a big wall about how you think I'm scummy... yet you don't follow it up with a vote?
I do wonder how natural a reaction it is to compliment someone when they vote you. That is a bit slick feeling. I'll stick with my vote for now and see where this goes. I always tend to worry when someone who I vote compliments me.
Not so much a complement as an observation. Look at how Dels is being overly cautious with his vote. His response to me voting him is to pore over my posts and decide that I'm scum, but he won't back it with a vote. He questions BE's posts and their motives, but he doesn't back it with a vote. It shows a certain level of self-consciousness.
Your play has been fairly similar to his thus far, but at least when you think you've found a lead, you jump on it. I think you're mistaken, but at least you're not shy about placing your vote.
So yeah, my vote on Dels started out light-hearted, but his response to it has only served to solidify it.
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Wildfire a question for you. How many games of mafia have you played? I swear this has a purpose.
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I am going to quote a sentence you just said, and tell you why I find it troubling:
Your play has been fairly similar to his thus far, but at least when you think you've found a lead, you jump on it. I think you're mistaken, but at least you're not shy about placing your vote.
If you are town, I would sincerely expect you to say "I know you're mistaken." Instead you say, "I think you're mistaken." Now if I had voted for another player your thought processes would be of value and certainly welcomed, but because I voted for you it looks troubling. As if you fumbled over yourself trying to sound "right." What do you think of this observation I have made about that?
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I am going to quote a sentence you just said, and tell you why I find it troubling:
Your play has been fairly similar to his thus far, but at least when you think you've found a lead, you jump on it. I think you're mistaken, but at least you're not shy about placing your vote.
If you are town, I would sincerely expect you to say "I know you're mistaken." Instead you say, "I think you're mistaken." Now if I had voted for another player your thought processes would be of value and certainly welcomed, but because I voted for you it looks troubling. As if you fumbled over yourself trying to sound "right." What do you think of this observation I have made about that?
Hm... That's certainly an interesting observation. I'm trying to think about it in terms of how I would react had you pointed out a similar "slip" from someone else. Obviously, that's a little difficult to do. But I feel like I wouldn't put too much stock in that. Someone who says they "know" you're mistaken about your read on them would send up a (minor) red flag for me, because it's a "methinks he doth protest too much" kind of situation. Someone who has to so emphatically attempt to tell you they're town probably isn't.
All I can tell you is what I was thinking as I wrote that. To me, the important distinction is "I think" versus "you think", rather than "I think" versus "I know". I was merely trying to point out that my opinion on the matter of my alignment is understandably different than yours. Despite the fact that I disagree with your vote, I was making note of the fact that at least you were placing it when you had a suspicion.
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That is not a big wall, Wildfire. Trust me, when I write a big wall, you'll know it.
You say that scum can be found by looking at how they react to the random vote stage. Sure, that sounds valid enough. But then you say that I seem like scum because I didn't place a random vote. And that is where your analysis ends. So, every person who doesn't random vote is scummy? Obviously not. So you need to explain what exactly it was about my refusal to RVS that makes me scummy. For example, the way I said it, the timing of it, etc. But you didn't do that. This is another thing indicative of a scum mindset, in my opinion. As if you came up with a legitimate reason for voting someone, but you couldn't quite make it fit the person you're voting for.
To repeat what Plum said...You don't know me, Wildfire. You don't know how I vote. So I didn't follow up my wall there with a vote. Why does this mean I'm scummy? Isn't it possible that that is just how I am? The reason I didn't put a vote on BE was because I don't think he is scum. I questioned him in an attempt to figure out my opinion on him, and that is the conclusion I came to. I am still in the process of questioning you. I will not jump to conclusions.
You're also being inconsistent about the reason for your vote, and I'd like you to clarify it. You just said your vote "started out light-hearted". Yes or no, when you first posted your initial vote on me (post #56), did you have reasons in mind other than the RVS thing?
Interesting. Could you go back and look at post 44 of this topic and tell me what you think of it? I stated there that I was town in my discussion with BE. Given your current stance about I think vs I know, I would have thought my strong stand about my alignment and why it meant I wasn't lying would have struck a cord with you.
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That is not a big wall, Wildfire. Trust me, when I write a big wall, you'll know it.
You say that scum can be found by looking at how they react to the random vote stage. Sure, that sounds valid enough. But then you say that I seem like scum because I didn't place a random vote. And that is where your analysis ends. So, every person who doesn't random vote is scummy? Obviously not. So you need to explain what exactly it was about my refusal to RVS that makes me scummy. For example, the way I said it, the timing of it, etc. But you didn't do that. This is another thing indicative of a scum mindset, in my opinion. As if you came up with a legitimate reason for voting someone, but you couldn't quite make it fit the person you're voting for.
You were one of the first people into the thread, when RVS was definitely still in full swing. The first half of your first post (#23) isn't really any substance, and the second half is extremely noncommittal commentary on other actions taking place.
BE asks you about no vote, and you simply say you don't do it. No explanation, no reasoning, no contribution to the discussion.
To repeat what Plum said...You don't know me, Wildfire. You don't know how I vote. So I didn't follow up my wall there with a vote. Why does this mean I'm scummy? Isn't it possible that that is just how I am? The reason I didn't put a vote on BE was because I don't think he is scum. I questioned him in an attempt to figure out my opinion on him, and that is the conclusion I came to. I am still in the process of questioning you. I will not jump to conclusions.
I don't know you. So I'm simply playing from my gut feelings, which are telling me that you are being non-committal. The more I look back at your play this game, the more this appears apparent.
You're also being inconsistent about the reason for your vote, and I'd like you to clarify it. You just said your vote "started out light-hearted". Yes or no, when you first posted your initial vote on me (post #56), did you have reasons in mind other than the RVS thing?
I browsed the thread, saw you and Chris with no RVS. BE was already pressuring Chris, and I felt that you could use some as well. Your responses plus a deeper read solidified/serious'd the vote.
Interesting. Could you go back and look at post 44 of this topic and tell me what you think of it? I stated there that I was town in my discussion with BE. Given your current stance about I think vs I know, I would have thought my strong stand about my alignment and why it meant I wasn't lying would have struck a cord with you.
#44 seems somewhat different. You aren't claiming you're town, you're actually saying that you're scum if you're lying. It isn't even "I'm only scum if I'm lying", it's "I'm only lying if I'm scum". This does even leave open the possibility that you are both telling the truth and scum.
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You were one of the first people into the thread, when RVS was definitely still in full swing. The first half of your first post (#23) isn't really any substance, and the second half is extremely noncommittal commentary on other actions taking place.
BE asks you about no vote, and you simply say you don't do it. No explanation, no reasoning, no contribution to the discussion.
First of all, I don't think the RVS was "definitely" in full swing. Plum and BE's thing is what began to end it, and I'd say my commenting on that situation also helped bring it to end and helped bring about some actual discussion. So, you are wrong about that. You also call my comment noncommital. How much exactly do you want me to commit in my very first post of the game? I posted my thoughts on what BE had said, and I pointed out what I found odd about it. Seems committal enough to me. What more would you have wanted? Would you have been happier if I had voted for someone right away?
Again, you are refusing to actually try and understand the situation. So I said that I didn't place random votes. Why does this make me scummy? Surely you can imagine the possibility that I am town and that I simply don't random vote, and that's why I said that. What makes it more likely to you that I am scum?
I browsed the thread, saw you and Chris with no RVS. BE was already pressuring Chris, and I felt that you could use some as well. Your responses plus a deeper read solidified/serious'd the vote.
Okay. So it wasn't "light-hearted" then if you had those reasons in mind and wanted to pressure me. Sorry if I am being pedantic, but I define a light-hearted vote as a vote made without any serious reason or belief the person is scum. So when you call it light-hearted, but then you admit you did want to pressure me, that strikes me as a contradiction. If you already had the reasons from your second post in mind when you made the first post, then it was far from light-hearted.
You were one of the first people into the thread, when RVS was definitely still in full swing. The first half of your first post (#23) isn't really any substance, and the second half is extremely noncommittal commentary on other actions taking place.
BE asks you about no vote, and you simply say you don't do it. No explanation, no reasoning, no contribution to the discussion.
First of all, I don't think the RVS was "definitely" in full swing. Plum and BE's thing is what began to end it, and I'd say my commenting on that situation also helped bring it to end and helped bring about some actual discussion. So, you are wrong about that. You also call my comment noncommital. How much exactly do you want me to commit in my very first post of the game? I posted my thoughts on what BE had said, and I pointed out what I found odd about it. Seems committal enough to me. What more would you have wanted? Would you have been happier if I had voted for someone right away?
Again, you are refusing to actually try and understand the situation. So I said that I didn't place random votes. Why does this make me scummy? Surely you can imagine the possibility that I am town and that I simply don't random vote, and that's why I said that. What makes it more likely to you that I am scum?
Here's what you said:
Anyway... I find it weird that BE took plum's post there so seriously. Not just that you took it seriously, but that you made such a big deal about it. Like saying that plum is setting himself up with selfmeta that he can play based on. That's reading into it a bit too much I think!
So you're not RVSing, but you also think the first semi-serious vote is "such a big deal" and "a bit too much". That isn't encouraging discussion, that's shutting it down and belittling it.
I browsed the thread, saw you and Chris with no RVS. BE was already pressuring Chris, and I felt that you could use some as well. Your responses plus a deeper read solidified/serious'd the vote.
Okay. So it wasn't "light-hearted" then if you had those reasons in mind and wanted to pressure me. Sorry if I am being pedantic, but I define a light-hearted vote as a vote made without any serious reason or belief the person is scum. So when you call it light-hearted, but then you admit you did want to pressure me, that strikes me as a contradiction. If you already had the reasons from your second post in mind when you made the first post, then it was far from light-hearted.
I defined it as light-hearted because it wasn't made with the rock-solid belief that you were 100% scum. It was made to elicit a reaction to analyze. Given that your reaction is a noncomittal OMGUS, I'd say that was pretty successful.
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Vote Hunger, he's the only one here I *have* played with before.
Two new guys (to this site), both of which are refusing to RVS? I regret that I have but one vote to give.
If mine are non-commital, then what are yours? Sure, the first one is during RVS, but so was mine, and yet you still call me out for it. And the second one is a vote with no basis or reasoning given.
How exactly can you take issue with my first post, when yours are no better?
You accuse me of shutting down discussion, but I'd argue I was doing the opposite. I was starting a discussion by bringing up BE's votes and my thoughts on it. Just because I disagreed with his reasoning, doesn't mean I am shutting it down. I am inviting people to potentially disagree with me, while also starting a new discussion about BE himself.
This is NOT the town B_E that I've played with before. From his first few posts, I've got a strong sense that he's not used to playing scum, and thinks that he can seem town by looking like he's on the hunt for scum early on. It's very forced.
/vote Burning_Earth
Hi. Could you please go into more detail here? Specifically how his hunt for scum here feels different than his posting style in... uPick mafia, which you were town with him in which he voted a lot early on and had the same tone to the best of MY quick observation. Doesn't seem much different, curious what you see here that I don't. Thanks.
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Vote Hunger, he's the only one here I *have* played with before.
Two new guys (to this site), both of which are refusing to RVS? I regret that I have but one vote to give.
If mine are non-commital, then what are yours? Sure, the first one is during RVS, but so was mine, and yet you still call me out for it. And the second one is a vote with no basis or reasoning given.
How exactly can you take issue with my first post, when yours are no better?
I have a post in RVS that does RVS. Your post in RVS avoids RVSing. Please tell me how these are all comparable.
The second is a vote with basis - you avoided RVSing.
You accuse me of shutting down discussion, but I'd argue I was doing the opposite. I was starting a discussion by bringing up BE's votes and my thoughts on it. Just because I disagreed with his reasoning, doesn't mean I am shutting it down. I am inviting people to potentially disagree with me, while also starting a new discussion about BE himself.
It wasn't just that you disagreed with his reasoning. You dismiss it out of hand as an overreaction, and you don't state strong opinions of your own for anyone ti disagree with.
Here are some key phrases of yours I've noticed:
"I find it weird that BE took plum's post there so seriously" - It's not wrong, it's just "weird"
"And I don't think plum's "self-meta" is that offensive. Is this something that is frowned upon around here?" - "Here's an opinion... but let's leave an opening in case that's not how things are done here so I can back down"
"Man, for someone who is apparently okay with the random voting stage (aka useless), you sure are quick to jump on Chris there!" - Observation, no opinion
"And I don't jump to conclusions so quickly." - "I prefer to sit on the fence"
"I detect a noticeable shift in your tone" - "Hey, I have some information. But I won't share my opinion on it"
Basically the entirety of your page two posts are soft questions with no oomph behind them. It seems pretty evident that you want to float through the early game without getting involved in a meaningful way.
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This is NOT the town B_E that I've played with before. From his first few posts, I've got a strong sense that he's not used to playing scum, and thinks that he can seem town by looking like he's on the hunt for scum early on. It's very forced.
/vote Burning_Earth
Hi. Could you please go into more detail here? Specifically how his hunt for scum here feels different than his posting style in... uPick mafia, which you were town with him in which he voted a lot early on and had the same tone to the best of MY quick observation. Doesn't seem much different, curious what you see here that I don't. Thanks.
Yes, he did vote a lot, but his tone is radically different between games. In uPick, B_E let the game develop naturally while placing his vote wherever he felt it needed placing. In this game, he cranks it up to 11 on the first page, hammering on masterplum and Dels like nobody's business. It literally feels like someone else has taken over B_E's account.
Interesting. I didn't see it as anything other than RVS-chasing, which I've seen as fairly standard, but I'm not that familiar with BE's play.
(Also, he hammers on Sir Chris, not Dels)
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I have a post in RVS that does RVS. Your post in RVS avoids RVSing. Please tell me how these are all comparable.
The second is a vote with basis - you avoided RVSing.
They're not comparable. That's the point. I tried to start a discussion. You just did a standard RVS post. My post is waaaay better!
And the second post doesn't actually give the basis for your vote. That's why Chris and I both thought it was a joke vote and we both questioned you about it.
It wasn't just that you disagreed with his reasoning. You dismiss it out of hand as an overreaction, and you don't state strong opinions of your own for anyone ti disagree with.
No, I don't "dissmiss" it. That is your word. I comment on it. I give my own thoughts. I let BE know what I think of his vote, so I can see his reaction to it. I am starting discussion, not stifling it. You are wrong. The very act of commenting on his vote is me stating an opinion of my own.
Here are some key phrases of yours I've noticed:
"I find it weird that BE took plum's post there so seriously" - It's not wrong, it's just "weird"
"And I don't think plum's "self-meta" is that offensive. Is this something that is frowned upon around here?" - "Here's an opinion... but let's leave an opening in case that's not how things are done here so I can back down"
"Man, for someone who is apparently okay with the random voting stage (aka useless), you sure are quick to jump on Chris there!" - Observation, no opinion
"And I don't jump to conclusions so quickly." - "I prefer to sit on the fence"
"I detect a noticeable shift in your tone" - "Hey, I have some information. But I won't share my opinion on it"
Basically the entirety of your page two posts are soft questions with no oomph behind them. It seems pretty evident that you want to float through the early game without getting involved in a meaningful way.
If my plan was to float, I sure am doing a bad job of it, huh? Pretty silly of me to immediately jump in and start talking to plum and BE and Chris. I feel especially silly when I look at the handful of players who haven't even posted yet...Man, if I only had just done that.
You are overanalyzing my posts in an attempt to find half-baked reasons why I am scum. It is as simple as that. You think if you come in with a big list and lots of quotes, people will accept that you are scum hunting. They will not. I could make a list such as yours for any player in the game so far. It is really that easy to paint someone as scum. What I am missing from you is a true desire to actually understand me and how I might play if I were scum. How do you know that I am not just a town player whose playstyle early on involves questioning people, keeping an open mind, and taking time to come to conclusions? Why are these things scummy to you?
I am also waiting for the other players, I would assume that part of the reason is they don't know the game started yet. The sign up period lasted a while so it might take them a bit to realize it started as they probably don't frequent this site. Sending mod pokes through Gamefaqs would probably be most effective in letting them know the game is going on. I considered doing it myself, but thought that might get into the hazy grey area of outside communication so I decided against it.
If my plan was to float, I sure am doing a bad job of it, huh? Pretty silly of me to immediately jump in and start talking to plum and BE and Chris. I feel especially silly when I look at the handful of players who haven't even posted yet...Man, if I only had just done that.
You're talking to them. You're trying to appear active. But your actual contribution to the conversation, before I dragged you into it, is pretty much nil.
You are overanalyzing my posts in an attempt to find half-baked reasons why I am scum. It is as simple as that. You think if you come in with a big list and lots of quotes, people will accept that you are scum hunting. They will not. I could make a list such as yours for any player in the game so far. It is really that easy to paint someone as scum. What I am missing from you is a true desire to actually understand me and how I might play if I were scum. How do you know that I am not just a town player whose playstyle early on involves questioning people, keeping an open mind, and taking time to come to conclusions? Why are these things scummy to you?
Okay. Let's take a look at every question you've asked thus far this game, before my vote on you. This is every single statement with a question mark, no picking and choosing:
"And I don't think plum's "self-meta" is that offensive. Is this something that is frowned upon around here?" - A question about the local meta, rather than anything of a player or action.
"And yeah, by frowned upon, I just meant, is it considered scummy in general...or just be you? " - Again, asking general meta over a specific player's action.
"So your vote is on plum because you think he's scum? When you said "Lynch this guy", is that what you genuinely want? You'd be happy if everyone just agreed with you and voted plum right now?" - This is something of a decent question, but it doesn't go very deep. You're just asking him, after saying he thinks someone is scummy, if that is why he is voting that person.
"Remind me what Chris did to convince you he is scum?" - Again, a very shallow question
"I have also defended plum and I've been unwilling to vote. What makes it different with Chris?" - This one just seems to be defensive of Chris
"You call Chris out for being unwilling to vote, but he hasn't yet stated anyone that he believes seems scummy. Who, then, would you expect him to vote for?" - Again, just defensive of Chris (for something you're doing as well).
And that's it. Your questions, at best, are just observations on the game. There's nothing here that actually asks someone to engage with you.
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You are grasping. Those are all valid questions that I was asking in order to further understand BE's actions. In doing so, I was engaging him. You seem very fond of these lists, huh?
Wildfire, what is RVS-chasing? You didn't think BE's opening posts in this game were notably aggressive?
Over-aggression is a tool I've seen used in the early game in order to drive discussion. There's obviously an air of non-seriousness to it. Take a look at the beginning of uPick, he makes a claim that he gets a random player's alignment at the beginning of each day and has confirmation that another player is scum. This drives a bit of discussion, and then he finally admits he was making it up.
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You are grasping. Those are all valid questions that I was asking in order to further understand BE's actions. In doing so, I was engaging him. You seem very fond of these lists, huh?
They're valid-ish. There's nothing here that is actually driving real meaning. For the most part, you're just asking for clarification.
Really questioning players, in a meaningful way, involves questions that actually seek to find the motivation behind their actions, rather than just the meaning.
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I like this Dels guy for town so far. He is active and is asking good questions and shows pretty good logic. If I'm off and he is scum, as long as he keeps contributing like he is, it should be no problem to find inconsistencies and slip ups as the game goes on. He reads how I would expect town to play though.
While Wildfire has the opposite read regarding Dels and calls him scummy for being non-committal, I don't see Wildfire as pushing an agenda, he reads more like misguided town to me.
I don't really have a meta on BE having only played one game with him (which had NO DEADLINES, Days lasted months, and weeks would go by with only a couple posts...that's another story though), but there does seem to be an MTGS meta of someone pushing hard out the gates and calling out multiple scum like he has. It hasn't been indicative of alignment in my experience. Scum have done it to try and see if something catches on early, and town have done it to try and pressure people into slipping up. I would maybe lean towards the latter in this case as his pushes are on people new to the site, but overall it's mostly a neutral read on BE.
I will say that I agree with BE's point about plum self-meta'ing, it looks a bit self-conscious, but certainly not obvscum.
I was trying to understand BE's motivations. You have no reason to believe otherwise.
This is another example of how your reasoning doesn't fit the person you are voting for. It is perfectly valid to think someone is scum if they ask lots of questions simply for clarification, but with no attempt at actually trying to understand the situation. My questions...were not that. What's the metaphor? Its like I'm a round peg and you're trying to fit me into a square peg hole. If I were actually a square peg, that'd be great, but I'm not. So ultimately, you list lots and lots of vague reasons why a player might be scum, but you don't manage to explain why they mean that I am scum, or prove that those reasons apply to me.
I was trying to understand BE's motivations. You have no reason to believe otherwise.
This is another example of how your reasoning doesn't fit the person you are voting for. It is perfectly valid to think someone is scum if they ask lots of questions simply for clarification, but with no attempt at actually trying to understand the situation. My questions...were not that. What's the metaphor? Its like I'm a round peg and you're trying to fit me into a square peg hole. If I were actually a square peg, that'd be great, but I'm not. So ultimately, you list lots and lots of vague reasons why a player might be scum, but you don't manage to explain why they mean that I am scum, or prove that those reasons apply to me.
From where I stand, that's what your questions largely have been. I've got several specific reasons as to why you're scum, and you're fitting in those holes nicely:
-Shallow questions to appear active, but not actually driving meaningful conversation
-Overcaution with your vote; won't vote in RVS, won't vote someone you read as scummy
-Overall dismissive attitude (dismiss RVS, dismiss the first non-RVS argument, dismiss the case against you, all largely with handwaving)
-Your analysis of things that take place has all been more of a summary than anything with actual opinion in it
Overall, it comes off as noncommittal and scummy.
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You are trying to fit dels, a veteran of almost a decade, into your preconceived notion of what scum would do based on 4 pages and 4 games of experience.
Dels could be scum but you have no idea if that is true at this point.
- They're not shallow! They all had a purpose and I think anyone can agree that the way I was questioning BE was helpful.
- I am not overcautious. I don't vote in RVS because RVS is stupid. I don't vote now because I'm not going to place a vote on you before half the game has even posted and when I have plenty of time to decide where I want my vote.
- Handwaving? I have written up multiple posts full of reasoning on everything I believe. I resent this accusation. You make it sound as if I'm just sitting here saying "no u" to everything.
- My analysis is pretty in-depth and I give reasons for why I believe things that go beyond just summarizing events.
Wildfire, you really really like those lists, huh? You just keep posting them.
Plum while I see a point about Wildfire, obviously, I don't like that reasoning as having much basis. If we judge people on number of games played then we don't really know much. Feels like you're buddying up to Dels for no reason. I stopped my pursuit mostly to give Wildfire a chance to one on one a bit without feeling teamed up upon, your interjection says nothing other than "Man you're newer in this game, how dare you have confidence."
Like if you think he is scum say so, but attacking his newness is below the belt and serves no purpose.
Hi Hunger just a quick question what are your thoughts on me? I only ask because you mentioned every other person who has posted a fair amount except for myself, did nothing I say jump out or did you simply feel it would retread old ground?
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- They're not shallow! They all had a purpose and I think anyone can agree that the way I was questioning BE was helpful.
Sure, clarification helps. But you can't paint yourself as someone who's asking the deep, probing questions when you've mostly just asked for clarification.
- I am not overcautious. I don't vote in RVS because RVS is stupid. I don't vote now because I'm not going to place a vote on you before half the game has even posted and when I have plenty of time to decide where I want my vote.
There's also plenty of time to decide to change your vote. I've voted you, but I'm free to change that if I see an error in my analysis or if someone scummier comes around.
- Handwaving? I have written up multiple posts full of reasoning on everything I believe. I resent this accusation. You make it sound as if I'm just sitting here saying "no u" to everything.
"I'm a round peg and you're trying to put me in a square whole" is pretty darn handwavy.
- My analysis is pretty in-depth and I give reasons for why I believe things that go beyond just summarizing events.
Sure, but what I haven't seen from you is a lot of strong opinions.
Wildfire, you really really like those lists, huh? You just keep posting them.
Lists are a good way to organize multiple similar, yet different things. Each of my "lists" has been a different type of list as well. Is there a problem with that?
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You are trying to fit dels, a veteran of almost a decade, into your preconceived notion of what scum would do based on 4 pages and 4 games of experience.
Dels could be scum but you have no idea if that is true at this point.
Nobody has any solid idea who is or isn't scum at this point. I'm just going from my gut and for the scummiest person I've seen so far. I'm certainly not 100% sold on him being scum. Hell, I'm not even like 40% sold. It's driving discussion though.
How does the early game play out on whatever site you all play on? With no RVS and no accusations before you're sure someone is scum, does everyone just sit around and durdle for day 1?
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But you can't paint yourself as someone who's asking the deep, probing questions when you've mostly just asked for clarification.
I never once asked a question purely for clarification. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true.
There's also plenty of time to decide to change your vote. I've voted you, but I'm free to change that if I see an error in my analysis or if someone scummier comes around.
Okay? And I think you're the scummiest player so far and I can either change my mind later or I can keep thinking that, and then I'll probably vote you. Different playstyle. Same result.
"I'm a round peg and you're trying to put me in a square whole" is pretty darn handwavy.
That was a metaphor. And it represents the #1 reason I've posted why I think you are scum. Because you keep listing valid reasons why a player is scum, but you never manage to explain how they actually fit what I have posted.
You just took the main reason why I have repeatedly stated you are acting like scum, and dismissed it as handwaving. I don't like that.
Lists are a good way to organize multiple similar, yet different things. Each of my "lists" has been a different type of list as well. Is there a problem with that?
Lists are very easy to make. Anyone can make a list. I could make a list about any other player in this game.
Well maybe you should form an opinion then? There's enough intent to go on.
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Vote Wildfire393
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I mean, there's also the fact that you've been speaking for and defending Chris and seem to want to shut down discussion.
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This reinforces why Dels deserves the vote and you don't - at least you're engaging.
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So your vote was serious? Because everything in your original post made it seem like it was just a "random vote" because I'm new.
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Also the question was rhetorical.
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It was more because you avoided RVSing than just because you were new here. It's surprising how many scum can be caught just by looking for people who RVS wrong (either avoiding voting or voting non-entities).
Looking at your posts and how you've been shooting down every accusation without actual fostering any meaningful discussion, yeah, this became a serious vote.
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Is this a serious vote?
I can't tell from your follow up posts
Check the one posted just before this - it's serious.
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So let me ask this question. Why are you assuming an extremely experienced mafia player from a different site would have the same random voting meta you do?
He says that I've been "speaking for and defending" you. This isn't true. I questioned BE about why he was voting you. This was moreso an attempt at analyzing BE's thoughts, and not an attempt at defending you. I don't think you need me to defend you.
He says I seem to want to shut down discussion. This also seems wrong to me. I've been around and have been one of the only people actually discussing things. I suppose you could accuse me of attempting to shut down discussion if you consider that I've tried to shut down BE's reasons for voting people. But that would display a very elementary understanding of the game.
Ultimately, the biggest thing against Wildfire is the way he placed his vote. For exactly the reasons you said. I interpreted it as nothing but a random vote. "Hey, these guys are new, I'll random vote one of them because they didn't random vote! Hehehe" Then we both called him out on that and he changes his tune. Suddenly, its a serious vote. Why on me? Because apparently, you are more engaging than I am.
My first impression upon just reading his initial post with the vote was that he came into the topic probably still thinking it was early enough to do a random vote, and even after seeing that we had gotten past that and were discussing real things, he refused to adapt. Therefore, his post feels too planned out. Like that is what he wanted to say, regardless of what had actually happened in the game. This is a mindset I'd associate with scum.
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So here, you've got a big wall about how you think I'm scummy... yet you don't follow it up with a vote?
Not so much a complement as an observation. Look at how Dels is being overly cautious with his vote. His response to me voting him is to pore over my posts and decide that I'm scum, but he won't back it with a vote. He questions BE's posts and their motives, but he doesn't back it with a vote. It shows a certain level of self-consciousness.
Your play has been fairly similar to his thus far, but at least when you think you've found a lead, you jump on it. I think you're mistaken, but at least you're not shy about placing your vote.
So yeah, my vote on Dels started out light-hearted, but his response to it has only served to solidify it.
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This is game #4. #3 is ongoing.
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I am going to quote a sentence you just said, and tell you why I find it troubling:
If you are town, I would sincerely expect you to say "I know you're mistaken." Instead you say, "I think you're mistaken." Now if I had voted for another player your thought processes would be of value and certainly welcomed, but because I voted for you it looks troubling. As if you fumbled over yourself trying to sound "right." What do you think of this observation I have made about that?
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Hm... That's certainly an interesting observation. I'm trying to think about it in terms of how I would react had you pointed out a similar "slip" from someone else. Obviously, that's a little difficult to do. But I feel like I wouldn't put too much stock in that. Someone who says they "know" you're mistaken about your read on them would send up a (minor) red flag for me, because it's a "methinks he doth protest too much" kind of situation. Someone who has to so emphatically attempt to tell you they're town probably isn't.
All I can tell you is what I was thinking as I wrote that. To me, the important distinction is "I think" versus "you think", rather than "I think" versus "I know". I was merely trying to point out that my opinion on the matter of my alignment is understandably different than yours. Despite the fact that I disagree with your vote, I was making note of the fact that at least you were placing it when you had a suspicion.
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You say that scum can be found by looking at how they react to the random vote stage. Sure, that sounds valid enough. But then you say that I seem like scum because I didn't place a random vote. And that is where your analysis ends. So, every person who doesn't random vote is scummy? Obviously not. So you need to explain what exactly it was about my refusal to RVS that makes me scummy. For example, the way I said it, the timing of it, etc. But you didn't do that. This is another thing indicative of a scum mindset, in my opinion. As if you came up with a legitimate reason for voting someone, but you couldn't quite make it fit the person you're voting for.
To repeat what Plum said...You don't know me, Wildfire. You don't know how I vote. So I didn't follow up my wall there with a vote. Why does this mean I'm scummy? Isn't it possible that that is just how I am? The reason I didn't put a vote on BE was because I don't think he is scum. I questioned him in an attempt to figure out my opinion on him, and that is the conclusion I came to. I am still in the process of questioning you. I will not jump to conclusions.
You're also being inconsistent about the reason for your vote, and I'd like you to clarify it. You just said your vote "started out light-hearted". Yes or no, when you first posted your initial vote on me (post #56), did you have reasons in mind other than the RVS thing?
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You were one of the first people into the thread, when RVS was definitely still in full swing. The first half of your first post (#23) isn't really any substance, and the second half is extremely noncommittal commentary on other actions taking place.
BE asks you about no vote, and you simply say you don't do it. No explanation, no reasoning, no contribution to the discussion.
I don't know you. So I'm simply playing from my gut feelings, which are telling me that you are being non-committal. The more I look back at your play this game, the more this appears apparent.
I browsed the thread, saw you and Chris with no RVS. BE was already pressuring Chris, and I felt that you could use some as well. Your responses plus a deeper read solidified/serious'd the vote.
#44 seems somewhat different. You aren't claiming you're town, you're actually saying that you're scum if you're lying. It isn't even "I'm only scum if I'm lying", it's "I'm only lying if I'm scum". This does even leave open the possibility that you are both telling the truth and scum.
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First of all, I don't think the RVS was "definitely" in full swing. Plum and BE's thing is what began to end it, and I'd say my commenting on that situation also helped bring it to end and helped bring about some actual discussion. So, you are wrong about that. You also call my comment noncommital. How much exactly do you want me to commit in my very first post of the game? I posted my thoughts on what BE had said, and I pointed out what I found odd about it. Seems committal enough to me. What more would you have wanted? Would you have been happier if I had voted for someone right away?
Again, you are refusing to actually try and understand the situation. So I said that I didn't place random votes. Why does this make me scummy? Surely you can imagine the possibility that I am town and that I simply don't random vote, and that's why I said that. What makes it more likely to you that I am scum?
Okay. So it wasn't "light-hearted" then if you had those reasons in mind and wanted to pressure me. Sorry if I am being pedantic, but I define a light-hearted vote as a vote made without any serious reason or belief the person is scum. So when you call it light-hearted, but then you admit you did want to pressure me, that strikes me as a contradiction. If you already had the reasons from your second post in mind when you made the first post, then it was far from light-hearted.
Here's what you said:
So you're not RVSing, but you also think the first semi-serious vote is "such a big deal" and "a bit too much". That isn't encouraging discussion, that's shutting it down and belittling it.
I defined it as light-hearted because it wasn't made with the rock-solid belief that you were 100% scum. It was made to elicit a reaction to analyze. Given that your reaction is a noncomittal OMGUS, I'd say that was pretty successful.
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Here are your first two posts:
Vote Hunger, he's the only one here I *have* played with before.
Two new guys (to this site), both of which are refusing to RVS? I regret that I have but one vote to give.
If mine are non-commital, then what are yours? Sure, the first one is during RVS, but so was mine, and yet you still call me out for it. And the second one is a vote with no basis or reasoning given.
How exactly can you take issue with my first post, when yours are no better?
You accuse me of shutting down discussion, but I'd argue I was doing the opposite. I was starting a discussion by bringing up BE's votes and my thoughts on it. Just because I disagreed with his reasoning, doesn't mean I am shutting it down. I am inviting people to potentially disagree with me, while also starting a new discussion about BE himself.
Hi. Could you please go into more detail here? Specifically how his hunt for scum here feels different than his posting style in... uPick mafia, which you were town with him in which he voted a lot early on and had the same tone to the best of MY quick observation. Doesn't seem much different, curious what you see here that I don't. Thanks.
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I have a post in RVS that does RVS. Your post in RVS avoids RVSing. Please tell me how these are all comparable.
The second is a vote with basis - you avoided RVSing.
It wasn't just that you disagreed with his reasoning. You dismiss it out of hand as an overreaction, and you don't state strong opinions of your own for anyone ti disagree with.
Here are some key phrases of yours I've noticed:
"I find it weird that BE took plum's post there so seriously" - It's not wrong, it's just "weird"
"And I don't think plum's "self-meta" is that offensive. Is this something that is frowned upon around here?" - "Here's an opinion... but let's leave an opening in case that's not how things are done here so I can back down"
"Man, for someone who is apparently okay with the random voting stage (aka useless), you sure are quick to jump on Chris there!" - Observation, no opinion
"And I don't jump to conclusions so quickly." - "I prefer to sit on the fence"
"I detect a noticeable shift in your tone" - "Hey, I have some information. But I won't share my opinion on it"
Basically the entirety of your page two posts are soft questions with no oomph behind them. It seems pretty evident that you want to float through the early game without getting involved in a meaningful way.
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Interesting. I didn't see it as anything other than RVS-chasing, which I've seen as fairly standard, but I'm not that familiar with BE's play.
(Also, he hammers on Sir Chris, not Dels)
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They're not comparable. That's the point. I tried to start a discussion. You just did a standard RVS post. My post is waaaay better!
And the second post doesn't actually give the basis for your vote. That's why Chris and I both thought it was a joke vote and we both questioned you about it.
No, I don't "dissmiss" it. That is your word. I comment on it. I give my own thoughts. I let BE know what I think of his vote, so I can see his reaction to it. I am starting discussion, not stifling it. You are wrong. The very act of commenting on his vote is me stating an opinion of my own.
If my plan was to float, I sure am doing a bad job of it, huh? Pretty silly of me to immediately jump in and start talking to plum and BE and Chris. I feel especially silly when I look at the handful of players who haven't even posted yet...Man, if I only had just done that.
You are overanalyzing my posts in an attempt to find half-baked reasons why I am scum. It is as simple as that. You think if you come in with a big list and lots of quotes, people will accept that you are scum hunting. They will not. I could make a list such as yours for any player in the game so far. It is really that easy to paint someone as scum. What I am missing from you is a true desire to actually understand me and how I might play if I were scum. How do you know that I am not just a town player whose playstyle early on involves questioning people, keeping an open mind, and taking time to come to conclusions? Why are these things scummy to you?
You're talking to them. You're trying to appear active. But your actual contribution to the conversation, before I dragged you into it, is pretty much nil.
Okay. Let's take a look at every question you've asked thus far this game, before my vote on you. This is every single statement with a question mark, no picking and choosing:
"And I don't think plum's "self-meta" is that offensive. Is this something that is frowned upon around here?" - A question about the local meta, rather than anything of a player or action.
"And yeah, by frowned upon, I just meant, is it considered scummy in general...or just be you? " - Again, asking general meta over a specific player's action.
"So your vote is on plum because you think he's scum? When you said "Lynch this guy", is that what you genuinely want? You'd be happy if everyone just agreed with you and voted plum right now?" - This is something of a decent question, but it doesn't go very deep. You're just asking him, after saying he thinks someone is scummy, if that is why he is voting that person.
"Remind me what Chris did to convince you he is scum?" - Again, a very shallow question
"I have also defended plum and I've been unwilling to vote. What makes it different with Chris?" - This one just seems to be defensive of Chris
"You call Chris out for being unwilling to vote, but he hasn't yet stated anyone that he believes seems scummy. Who, then, would you expect him to vote for?" - Again, just defensive of Chris (for something you're doing as well).
And that's it. Your questions, at best, are just observations on the game. There's nothing here that actually asks someone to engage with you.
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Over-aggression is a tool I've seen used in the early game in order to drive discussion. There's obviously an air of non-seriousness to it. Take a look at the beginning of uPick, he makes a claim that he gets a random player's alignment at the beginning of each day and has confirmation that another player is scum. This drives a bit of discussion, and then he finally admits he was making it up.
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They're valid-ish. There's nothing here that is actually driving real meaning. For the most part, you're just asking for clarification.
Really questioning players, in a meaningful way, involves questions that actually seek to find the motivation behind their actions, rather than just the meaning.
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While Wildfire has the opposite read regarding Dels and calls him scummy for being non-committal, I don't see Wildfire as pushing an agenda, he reads more like misguided town to me.
I don't really have a meta on BE having only played one game with him (which had NO DEADLINES, Days lasted months, and weeks would go by with only a couple posts...that's another story though), but there does seem to be an MTGS meta of someone pushing hard out the gates and calling out multiple scum like he has. It hasn't been indicative of alignment in my experience. Scum have done it to try and see if something catches on early, and town have done it to try and pressure people into slipping up. I would maybe lean towards the latter in this case as his pushes are on people new to the site, but overall it's mostly a neutral read on BE.
I will say that I agree with BE's point about plum self-meta'ing, it looks a bit self-conscious, but certainly not obvscum.
This is another example of how your reasoning doesn't fit the person you are voting for. It is perfectly valid to think someone is scum if they ask lots of questions simply for clarification, but with no attempt at actually trying to understand the situation. My questions...were not that. What's the metaphor? Its like I'm a round peg and you're trying to fit me into a square peg hole. If I were actually a square peg, that'd be great, but I'm not. So ultimately, you list lots and lots of vague reasons why a player might be scum, but you don't manage to explain why they mean that I am scum, or prove that those reasons apply to me.
From where I stand, that's what your questions largely have been. I've got several specific reasons as to why you're scum, and you're fitting in those holes nicely:
-Shallow questions to appear active, but not actually driving meaningful conversation
-Overcaution with your vote; won't vote in RVS, won't vote someone you read as scummy
-Overall dismissive attitude (dismiss RVS, dismiss the first non-RVS argument, dismiss the case against you, all largely with handwaving)
-Your analysis of things that take place has all been more of a summary than anything with actual opinion in it
Overall, it comes off as noncommittal and scummy.
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Dels could be scum but you have no idea if that is true at this point.
- I am not overcautious. I don't vote in RVS because RVS is stupid. I don't vote now because I'm not going to place a vote on you before half the game has even posted and when I have plenty of time to decide where I want my vote.
- Handwaving? I have written up multiple posts full of reasoning on everything I believe. I resent this accusation. You make it sound as if I'm just sitting here saying "no u" to everything.
- My analysis is pretty in-depth and I give reasons for why I believe things that go beyond just summarizing events.
Wildfire, you really really like those lists, huh? You just keep posting them.
Like if you think he is scum say so, but attacking his newness is below the belt and serves no purpose.
Hi Hunger just a quick question what are your thoughts on me? I only ask because you mentioned every other person who has posted a fair amount except for myself, did nothing I say jump out or did you simply feel it would retread old ground?
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Sure, clarification helps. But you can't paint yourself as someone who's asking the deep, probing questions when you've mostly just asked for clarification.
There's also plenty of time to decide to change your vote. I've voted you, but I'm free to change that if I see an error in my analysis or if someone scummier comes around.
"I'm a round peg and you're trying to put me in a square whole" is pretty darn handwavy.
Sure, but what I haven't seen from you is a lot of strong opinions.
Lists are a good way to organize multiple similar, yet different things. Each of my "lists" has been a different type of list as well. Is there a problem with that?
Nobody has any solid idea who is or isn't scum at this point. I'm just going from my gut and for the scummiest person I've seen so far. I'm certainly not 100% sold on him being scum. Hell, I'm not even like 40% sold. It's driving discussion though.
How does the early game play out on whatever site you all play on? With no RVS and no accusations before you're sure someone is scum, does everyone just sit around and durdle for day 1?
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I never once asked a question purely for clarification. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true.
Okay? And I think you're the scummiest player so far and I can either change my mind later or I can keep thinking that, and then I'll probably vote you. Different playstyle. Same result.
That was a metaphor. And it represents the #1 reason I've posted why I think you are scum. Because you keep listing valid reasons why a player is scum, but you never manage to explain how they actually fit what I have posted.
You just took the main reason why I have repeatedly stated you are acting like scum, and dismissed it as handwaving. I don't like that.
Lists are very easy to make. Anyone can make a list. I could make a list about any other player in this game.
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