OK here's another thing. The way SNL self voted and was all like ANYONE WHO HAMMERS ME IS CLAIMING SCUM was just totally ridiculous and so townie BECAUSE we would all see SNL's flip and if he were scum, whoever hammered wouldn't really have anything to "worry" about, so yeah it seemed like a genuine "hammer me if you dare" type deal. The reason I told SNL it was stupid was because all of us who don't know SNL's alignment can't really be held accountable for his flip because we don't know what it will be. Yeah sure there's the wifom card but is really the type of play we'd see from noob scum?
Oh and I think the Citizen of Ravnica thing sort of town-clears SNL, yeah?
What? How?
Also stop. No more guild-claiming. This is a terrible idea.
Quit being obtuse. WHY is it a "terrible idea?" Meg isn't going to reveal our guilds upon death. It's important that we don't allow leeway with claims.
OK I'll go for lynching SNL today. I don't feel great about it, but at least it will mean no more claims. I really do want us all to claim guilds though. And if anyone has a problem with that I want a detailed explanation why.
Ok, SNL most likely screwed up the claim then. I think not lynching SNL is probably trying to be too cute with our lynches. It's a mafia example of fancy play syndrome. Worst case we lynch a nilla, and for years I have said a nilla day 1 lynch is fine. Not ideal, but fine. Gives us something solid to build on.
And by too neat I meant votes started shedding off SNL a bit more then I expected.
Wow. All this argument over SNL's dumb claim? Not a single one of you is lazy? Because I'd sure call myself "Vanilla" if I had no abilities. I'm not going to type out "Citizen of Ravnica" because I'm that lazy.
However, KK's push on SNL is just really terrible. I really like the subtle smear he did at the beginning, stating how bad everyone here is. There's no reason to lynch a player ASAP. If we do decide to lynch SNL, we've no need to do it now. We continue talking until the deadline and vote, or he'd start ruining any discussion and we'd vote him.
Bad, bad. Vote KoolKoal
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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@Cantrip, I would share more about AE but I can't. I'm perfectly willing to look at AE another Day, but I don't have him as a suspect right now.
And yes, I was scolding Axel. I don't want him outing the Selesnyan power, whatever it is. Regarding the bussing comment, while Axel wasn't voting it did look like he was laying the groundwork for a hop onto the SNL wagon.
OK here's another thing. The way SNL self voted and was all like ANYONE WHO HAMMERS ME IS CLAIMING SCUM was just totally ridiculous and so townie BECAUSE we would all see SNL's flip and if he were scum, whoever hammered wouldn't really have anything to "worry" about, so yeah it seemed like a genuine "hammer me if you dare" type deal. The reason I told SNL it was stupid was because all of us who don't know SNL's alignment can't really be held accountable for his flip because we don't know what it will be. Yeah sure there's the wifom card but is really the type of play we'd see from noob scum?
I don’t know which portion of your statement “the wifom card” is referring to, but trying to decipher SNL’s self-vote to determine alignment is WIFOM. If he flipped scum, we still wouldn’t know anything about the hammerer because it just as easily could be a scumbuddy ending the Day as it could be a townie convinced of SNL’s scumminess. I can't see that SNL voting himself clears him, although...
@SNL: Please remind me of your mafia experience (other than the one GIP that you're dead in that I know of)?
I really do want us all to claim guilds though. And if anyone has a problem with that I want a detailed explanation why.
I have two concerns with a guild claim toDay:
1. It’s been identified that all Selesnyans have a guild ability, which, in the absence of anything else, could lead to scum choosing to kill a Selesnyan instead of the possibility of hitting vanilla town.
2. AE says he cares about guilds, and I don’t trust AE.
I could maybe see some weak benefit to claiming guild toDay, but I don’t see how it outweighs the two above elements. Plus, you know, I don’t really think that you’re in a position to make these kinds of requests until you’ve read the entire thread.
Wow. All this argument over SNL's dumb claim? Not a single one of you is lazy? Because I'd sure call myself "Vanilla" if I had no abilities. I'm not going to type out "Citizen of Ravnica" because I'm that lazy.
I'm not suspicious of SNL for his claim. What did you think of the way SNL “cased” AI?
Quote from TK-421 »
However, KK's push on SNL is just really terrible. I really like the subtle smear he did at the beginning, stating how bad everyone here is. There's no reason to lynch a player ASAP. If we do decide to lynch SNL, we've no need to do it now. We continue talking until the deadline and vote, or he'd start ruining any discussion and we'd vote him.
There are times that more discussion isn’t helpful until a flip occurs, and sometimes it’s even detrimental.
I haven’t had much concern with KK’s posts this game; do you really think you’re going to derail SNL’s wagon from L-2 and build support for a player with one vote on him based on the above reasoning?
I have been asked whether this game will be full reveal or not.
FYI, I was the one that asked. I wanted to know if SNL’s death would reveal his guild ability. Given that it won’t, I’m still onboard with lynching SNL. I think he needs to be given the chance to respond to the latest series of exchanges, but I’m not sure what he could say that would sway me from his lynch. What other discussion needs to happen before the Day ends? Anything?
Still liking the SNL lynch for toDay. Also, I like that post by Cantrip. scarbo is looking pretty brutal, he clearly isn't paying very close attention to the thread despite claiming to have read it twice. Could just be a playstyle thing, but I find scum pay less attention to the details of everything going on since they don't necessarily need to analyze as much.
@Mod - V/LA - from about noon CST today until Sunday I will be without phone/computer access.
Still liking the SNL lynch for toDay. Also, I like that post by Cantrip. scarbo is looking pretty brutal, he clearly isn't paying very close attention to the thread despite claiming to have read it twice. Could just be a playstyle thing, but I find scum pay less attention to the details of everything going on since they don't necessarily need to analyze as much.
@Mod - V/LA - from about noon CST today until Sunday I will be without phone/computer access.
I'm gonna call BS. I missed the Simic symbol and that means I'm not paying attention to the thread?
Still liking the SNL lynch for toDay. Also, I like that post by Cantrip. scarbo is looking pretty brutal, he clearly isn't paying very close attention to the thread despite claiming to have read it twice. Could just be a playstyle thing, but I find scum pay less attention to the details of everything going on since they don't necessarily need to analyze as much.
@Mod - V/LA - from about noon CST today until Sunday I will be without phone/computer access.
I'm gonna call BS. I missed the Simic symbol and that means I'm not paying attention to the thread?
You also missed that two people have claimed characters that don't align with their guild, and Dag had to point it out to you.
You also missed that Citizen of Ravnica is on the OP sample PM, which I pointed out yesterday as a reason SNL's claim is even worse because he could have seen that after he messed up the vanilla claim.
You also vote for and as KK to sum up his reasons for voting SNL, when he had already done exactly that.
So yeah, I don't think you are paying very close attention.
Wow. All this argument over SNL's dumb claim? Not a single one of you is lazy? Because I'd sure call myself "Vanilla" if I had no abilities. I'm not going to type out "Citizen of Ravnica" because I'm that lazy.
However, KK's push on SNL is just really terrible. I really like the subtle smear he did at the beginning, stating how bad everyone here is. There's no reason to lynch a player ASAP. If we do decide to lynch SNL, we've no need to do it now. We continue talking until the deadline and vote, or he'd start ruining any discussion and we'd vote him.
Bad, bad. Vote KoolKoal
So first you poorly defend SNL, as if the possible null tell of being lazy should clear him of suspicion.
Then you say I subtly smear everyone at the beginning. How is saying multiple people are bad at mafia with a facepalm smiley subtle? Further, why does my penchant for insulting people suddenly read as scum motivated to you? Its like you've forgotten ever playing with me before.
You also accuse me of trying to lynch SNL ASAP, which is not only putting words into my mouth, but directly counter to what I actually said, that he will be our lynch toDay, and we can wait until discussion has wound down.
This post combined with the rest of your suspect play (poor wagon-hopping and lurking) has proven to me that you're scum, and I'll be happy to lynch you day 2.
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I should have done this after my uber-post. These are, I think, all the unanswered questions from that uber-post.
@Masterplum:
• What was the "4 claims" comment in 398 regarding?
• Isn’t it a better idea to play to your wincon and let other players learn in the process (perhaps commenting on the situation when it happens/after the game)?
• Why so anti-PTAP?
•
Quote from masterplum »
Has SNL ever done something like this as scum. It seems just a bit too neat. Think he is town, but I want to know if I should worry about that read right now
When you say "like this", what is "this", exactly?
@RobRoy:
• I feel like you handwaved my question about resolving Void's "plan" with his replacement. If Void had a plan as scum, why do you think he wouldn't have anticipated coming under attack? If you think he would have anticipated it, why do you think he replaced out because of the pressure, especially given that it wasn't very much pressure?
• You have been sorta snarky in some responses; what gives? I don't remember your standard being the snark.
@Axel:
• Why does Void’s replace make more sense from scum than town?
• What's the difference between Void’s situation and a lurker’s situation in determining alignment?
• Why the LnGrrrR preamble?
• Did you notice that the logic questions you're highlighting regarding the Void-replace are similar to the ones being asked of you?
@SNL:
• Why did you feel the need to highlight three responders as "non-vanilla"?
• What was your intent with the smiley in response to Scarbo asking why you still haven't answered his question?
• How does your method of "casing" AI give you any insight into AI's alignment?
@Scarbo: Y u respond to my q, but not 588? That "calling bs" comment had a lot of indignation, but your lack of attention to the thread has been mentioned before, referenced by you (well, dismissed due to booze), and is fairly obvious to all...but you get in Hunger's face like his point was invalid?
Thanks for the answer, though. I'm not terribly concerned with Cyouni at the moment, but when I have time, I'll try isoing his posts.
It's almost like the forum change replaced swishh with another person...was swishh a "more polite" persona you had adopted, scarbo? I'm not trying to be acerbic; I'm just confused because I don't remember you being this...curt? Abrupt? Harsh? Dunno...
@SNL:
• Why did you feel the need to highlight three responders as "non-vanilla"?
• What was your intent with the smiley in response to Scarbo asking why you still haven't answered his question?
• How does your method of "casing" AI give you any insight into AI's alignment?
-Because they all reacted the same way when I mentioned that I had a guild power after claiming VT.
No, not "how did you suspect that they were non-vanilla". "Why would you, as town, go out of your way to identify them as non-vanilla?"
Quote from SNL »
-Sarcasm.
So you didn't answer scarbo's question on purpose? Why?
Quote from SNL »
-My breakdown was mainly looking at AI's commitment at calling players out as either town or scum. The ones I marked "statement" and "question" provided no insight on that specific topic. Early in the game, he was okay with ruffling some feathers (such as with TK and Void), but that quickly waned as the game progressed. AI's late-game lack of calls isn't what makes him seem scummy; it's that he started out with strong opinions, then just decided to bandwagon without giving a reason. I also marked posts that seemed suspicious to me, such as flimsily answering questions or that "focus shift" he never followed up on. Hell, I even threw in posts that seemed town, like him defending himself or other players.
But you didn't weigh in on any of those elements as towny or scummy. You just said "oh look guys at this scummy pattern that totally ignores content or context". And the pattern is dependent on what you choose to reduce to "comment" or "question". So how is that helpful in any way?
Quote from SNL »
@Everyone: If you eventually find out what Selesnya's guild power is, it will seem very likely that Selesnyans can't be scum. This isn't the case. SELESNYANS CAN STILL BE SCUM.
Hmmmmm...this does give me pause, though. I know it's WIFOM, but why would he be posting this warning if we would be on the brink of finding that out anyway with his flip?
@SNL: I remembered another question: Please remind me of your mafia experience?
Wow. All this argument over SNL's dumb claim? Not a single one of you is lazy? Because I'd sure call myself "Vanilla" if I had no abilities. I'm not going to type out "Citizen of Ravnica" because I'm that lazy.
However, KK's push on SNL is just really terrible. I really like the subtle smear he did at the beginning, stating how bad everyone here is. There's no reason to lynch a player ASAP. If we do decide to lynch SNL, we've no need to do it now. We continue talking until the deadline and vote, or he'd start ruining any discussion and we'd vote him.
Bad, bad. Vote KoolKoal
I notice you completely avoid having an opinion on SNL. Why?
OK here's another thing. The way SNL self voted and was all like ANYONE WHO HAMMERS ME IS CLAIMING SCUM was just totally ridiculous and so townie BECAUSE we would all see SNL's flip and if he were scum, whoever hammered wouldn't really have anything to "worry" about, so yeah it seemed like a genuine "hammer me if you dare" type deal. The reason I told SNL it was stupid was because all of us who don't know SNL's alignment can't really be held accountable for his flip because we don't know what it will be. Yeah sure there's the wifom card but is really the type of play we'd see from noob scum?
Or as scum, it's a scare tactic that can be used to try to prevent town voting him.
I'm going to assume it's because you were most likely drunk at that point that you missed this obvious point.
@SNL: Is there a particular reason you were attempting to hide your guild power when you were claiming? You know, the part where you put everything into the thread in an attempt to not be lynched?
Also, why so defeatist?
My claim included everything it had to: Faction, Alignment, and Role. I didn't say "I have a guild power" because I assumed we all have guild powers, which apparently isn't the case.
I'm defeatist because I was terrible at this game toDay.
I suppose the first is justifiable.
The second, not so much. I fail to see what "being terrible so far" and "not doing anything to argue against your lynch" have to do with each other.
Have an actual read on KK, or is that your real reason for finding him Town?
Why does scarbo taking a run at Axel make him town?
Why does AE not pushing as hard as he can make him town? What do you think he could be pushing harder?
What makes you think I have an agenda? What do you think that agenda is?
Why is Axel scummy for taking Void's post at face value?
You realize that what I have written there is almost the entirety of my reactions, right? I don't have pages and pages of notes that I distilled down to those. Those were the notes.
Your notes should still have reasons behind them. Why don't these appear to?
I read over the thread. I wrote down people who felt townie or scum to me, with as much reason as I had. Then I posted it.
So you're telling me that, for example, because Axelrod took Void's post at face value, you think he's scum. You have no reason behind why that's a scummy action.
And because scarbo took a run at Axelrod, he's town. No reason why that's a townie action.
Same with KoolKoal, AE, and Hunger.
Is that really what you're saying - that you have no reasons behind why any of those actions make someone town/scum?
Wow. All this argument over SNL's dumb claim? Not a single one of you is lazy? Because I'd sure call myself "Vanilla" if I had no abilities. I'm not going to type out "Citizen of Ravnica" because I'm that lazy.
I'm not suspicious of SNL for his claim. What did you think of the way SNL “cased” AI?
The way? The listing thing? He's done it before. I'm very to it. It's concise, but also lacks detail, better for the player than for making arguments. If you mean his actual case, AI's hunting has shifted styles. The question/statement is a perfectly legitimate way of hunting. It can actually be a better assessment of someone like me, where I respond all at once.
Quote from TK-421 »
However, KK's push on SNL is just really terrible. I really like the subtle smear he did at the beginning, stating how bad everyone here is. There's no reason to lynch a player ASAP. If we do decide to lynch SNL, we've no need to do it now. We continue talking until the deadline and vote, or he'd start ruining any discussion and we'd vote him.
There are times that more discussion isn’t helpful until a flip occurs, and sometimes it’s even detrimental.
Yes, exactly. But we don't need to rush ourselves either.
I haven’t had much concern with KK’s posts this game; do you really think you’re going to derail SNL’s wagon from L-2 and build support for a player with one vote on him based on the above reasoning?
Nope, but I've been hopping around the less viewed players. This is all part of my above reasoning.
Wow. All this argument over SNL's dumb claim? Not a single one of you is lazy? Because I'd sure call myself "Vanilla" if I had no abilities. I'm not going to type out "Citizen of Ravnica" because I'm that lazy.
However, KK's push on SNL is just really terrible. I really like the subtle smear he did at the beginning, stating how bad everyone here is. There's no reason to lynch a player ASAP. If we do decide to lynch SNL, we've no need to do it now. We continue talking until the deadline and vote, or he'd start ruining any discussion and we'd vote him.
Bad, bad. Vote KoolKoal
So first you poorly defend SNL, as if the possible null tell of being lazy should clear him of suspicion.
Then you say I subtly smear everyone at the beginning. How is saying multiple people are bad at mafia with a facepalm smiley subtle? Further, why does my penchant for insulting people suddenly read as scum motivated to you? Its like you've forgotten ever playing with me before.
You also accuse me of trying to lynch SNL ASAP, which is not only putting words into my mouth, but directly counter to what I actually said, that he will be our lynch toDay, and we can wait until discussion has wound down.
This post combined with the rest of your suspect play (poor wagon-hopping and lurking) has proven to me that you're scum, and I'll be happy to lynch you day 2.
Hmmmm, you are right. Your last sentence does say exactly what I said. It's hard for me to read posts that start out with "everyone else is dumb." But his claim is not some smoking gun to his guilt as it feels like many make it out to be. As I read, it felt like every person was saying "He said vanilla not citizen of ravnica, lynch". It's poor evidence and a decision hinging on that would be terrible.
As for your smear, the longer my memory goes, the worse it gets. The only reason I remember Dagaen is that he JUST played SW with me. I know you, I know I've played with you, but your style is now foreign to me. I assume most people aren't naturally as... antagonistic as that, so it reads poorly. (And as you saw, I get flak for being overly nice! Apparently, we're opposites and will clearly explode in a life-ending bang if we touch). It seems that you've forgotten playing with me, since it's common for me to have infrequent posting.
Anyway, it appears I owe you an apology and an unvote. Unvote
Wow. All this argument over SNL's dumb claim? Not a single one of you is lazy? Because I'd sure call myself "Vanilla" if I had no abilities. I'm not going to type out "Citizen of Ravnica" because I'm that lazy.
However, KK's push on SNL is just really terrible. I really like the subtle smear he did at the beginning, stating how bad everyone here is. There's no reason to lynch a player ASAP. If we do decide to lynch SNL, we've no need to do it now. We continue talking until the deadline and vote, or he'd start ruining any discussion and we'd vote him.
Bad, bad. Vote KoolKoal
I notice you completely avoid having an opinion on SNL. Why?
Because my post was not truly about SNL (except the claim). It was about my (wrong) feelings on KK and the arguments regarding the claim. If you want my opinion on SNL, I'll need to invest some time, rather than reading along and responding to what I don't like.
As a note to all, my computer died on... last Friday, I think, and I got really ill on Wednesday, so I'm following along, but it leaves much to be desired.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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I don't see why everyone is saying that SNL's claim is the only reason to lynch him. I mean, what about his horrible reads, lack of voting for his top scumread, and just overall lackluster play toDay?
It's concise, but also lacks detail, better for the player than for making arguments.
I don't get what you mean by "better for the player"...which player?
Quote from TK-421 »
There are times that more discussion isn’t helpful until a flip occurs, and sometimes it’s even detrimental.
Yes, exactly. But we don't need to rush ourselves either.
Agreed.
Quote from TK-421 »
I haven’t had much concern with KK’s posts this game; do you really think you’re going to derail SNL’s wagon from L-2 and build support for a player with one vote on him based on the above reasoning?
Nope, but I've been hopping around the less viewed players. This is all part of my above reasoning.
Other than demonstrate that you were on a bunch of players wagons Day 1, what are you hoping to accomplish?
I notice you completely avoid having an opinion on SNL. Why?
Because my post was not truly about SNL (except the claim). It was about my (wrong) feelings on KK and the arguments regarding the claim. If you want my opinion on SNL, I'll need to invest some time, rather than reading along and responding to what I don't like.
You have no opinion...on the guy on the brink of being lynched? Who's been the focus of the discussion for a couple hundred posts? How is that even remotely possible? I need you to commit to the present moment: Do you think SNL is town or scum?
I don't see why everyone is saying that SNL's claim is the only reason to lynch him. I mean, what about his horrible reads, lack of voting for his top scumread, and just overall lackluster play toDay?
Yeah, there's this. But I'm really questioning my read with his recent warning.
I should have done this after my uber-post. These are, I think, all the unanswered questions from that uber-post.
@Masterplum:
• What was the "4 claims" comment in 398 regarding?
• Isn’t it a better idea to play to your wincon and let other players learn in the process (perhaps commenting on the situation when it happens/after the game)?
• Why so anti-PTAP?
•
Quote from masterplum »
Has SNL ever done something like this as scum. It seems just a bit too neat. Think he is town, but I want to know if I should worry about that read right now
When you say "like this", what is "this", exactly?
@RobRoy:
• I feel like you handwaved my question about resolving Void's "plan" with his replacement. If Void had a plan as scum, why do you think he wouldn't have anticipated coming under attack? If you think he would have anticipated it, why do you think he replaced out because of the pressure, especially given that it wasn't very much pressure?
• You have been sorta snarky in some responses; what gives? I don't remember your standard being the snark.
@Axel:
• Why does Void’s replace make more sense from scum than town?
• What's the difference between Void’s situation and a lurker’s situation in determining alignment?
• Why the LnGrrrR preamble?
• Did you notice that the logic questions you're highlighting regarding the Void-replace are similar to the ones being asked of you?
@SNL:
• Why did you feel the need to highlight three responders as "non-vanilla"?
• What was your intent with the smiley in response to Scarbo asking why you still haven't answered his question?
• How does your method of "casing" AI give you any insight into AI's alignment?
4 was an arbitrary number.
If people do something stupid and aren't punished for it then they have nothing telling them it's not ok. I see it happen often.
Ptap is saying I'm not posting. There is no reason you should ever have nothing to say in 3 days unless you are out of town
I don't see why everyone is saying that SNL's claim is the only reason to lynch him. I mean, what about his horrible reads, lack of voting for his top scumread, and just overall lackluster play toDay?
My problem is I can see such play coming from a new player.
@Cantripmancer: I did enjoy that big long post. It was much better on being free from hyperbole and mis-statements.
• Why does Void’s replace make more sense from scum than town?
All right, I'll give you the short-form essay. I'll start by quoting myself in this thread.
I think Void had all of 2 votes on him. Two. And most of the discussion has been about other people so far, not Void. Who's blowing what out of proportion here? I also think - and this is more meta - that a Townie bowing out there would have said something else. His (apparent) rage at being called out for doing something he says he wasn't doing would have merited either (1) more of a rant from an upset Townie or (2) more of an explanation from a non-upset Townie about why he needs to be bowing out there. A scum, on the other hand, who didn't want to deal with the pressure of being scum (a feeling I know well) could and probably would bow out just like that, without saying anything.
Everyone (who thinks Void is Town) is assuming he quit because he got so annoyed and/or frustrated with being "attacked" for what he perceived as bad reasons. But the way he just said "/replace" without saying anything else seems to me to weigh against that. If you're quitting because your really just so angry usually something else is said there. Because you're angry, right? You're pissed off. Usually, you tell the people who are pissing you off how they are pissing you off and how full of **** they are and that you're quitting because you just can't deal with idiots like you anymore, etc. etc. That's what getting angry and quitting usually means. Otherwise, you're imagining someone who is seething on the inside, and who, rather than explode his rage into the thread, just elects to quietly replace out. Which shows some restraint at least. Which doesn't quite follow from his getting so raged up in the first place over basically nothing. And even if that's what was going on, why didn't he just say that? He's still not explaining, even in a calm way, that this is why he's stepping down, which seems to go against that idea of him being all mature and restrained about it.
On the other hand, if you are scum and you find yourself catching some heat early and you are the type of player who (1) doesn't like to be scum anyway (2) or maybe just perceives themselves as a poor scum player, it's easy for me to imagine a scum player opting to just quit in that spot because he doesn't want to deal with the pressure of being scum and/or be responsible for being an early scum lynch. And if you were scum quitting in that spot, quitting with a 1-line /replace post would seem to be the correct way to do it, because it gives the Town zero additional information. You don't want to say something that someone could possibly get a read on. If you blow up at the person attacking you, then maybe you've tipped it that said person isn't scum, etc. etc. You just duck out with no explanation whatsoever.
That's why his post/replace made more sense to me as coming from scum then Town. And that's on top of that I didn't like his prior posts to begin with.
Sure, he could still be Town there. Maybe his mind just works differently. Maybe he's got stuff going on I have no idea about. It's not a lot to go on. It was early. But it's definitely more than nothing, and it was the best lead I felt there was to that point.
• What's the difference between Void’s situation and a lurker’s situation in determining alignment?
Not a lot before he replaced out. "Active lurking" is a thing you watch for, and Void's first couple of posts were like that. Just, here I am, reading the thread, but got nothing to say....This can be worth an early vote - in my oh so humble opinion.
• Why the LnGrrrR preamble?
As noted, the way Void replaced out made my suspicions stronger. That was me making that point.
• Did you notice that the logic questions you're highlighting regarding the Void-replace are similar to the ones being asked of you?
No. Because they're really not.
RR posited a "theory" that scum-Void made bad posts on purpose in order to attract attention to himself. And he did so with the intent to (subsequently) score Townie points by arguing the WIFOM "why would I have made such bad posts as scum?" This is, in fact, what a few people (you?) have been arguing in Void's defense - that scum-Void wouldn't have said such dumb things. So, RR's "Theory" is that this was all according to plan.
My point concerning RR's theory was (1) that it's dumb. This is a bad plan. To draw attention to yourself intentionally and then hope to WIFOM it away with "but why would I have done that as scum...." That is not a plan I would imagine very many scum coming up with. Because dumb. But EVEN IF that was the plan, then it seems the theory falls apart with Void asking to replace out. Why did he ask to replace out if this was what was going on? That really makes no sense.
My point concerning Void's play is not WIFOMY at all. My point is that scum make mistakes. Scum dig themselves into holes. Unintentionally. Not realizing at the time that whatever it is that they were saying was going to draw all this attention to themselves. I can easily see Void making the posts he made without thinking/realizing that he might get heavily criticized for them.
But to address your actual question: tell me how attacking/pressuring an experienced player for announcing that he’s not yet participating is any less of an exercise in WIFOM and/or grasping at straws than attacking/pressuring a lurker.
You're referencing Void's "experience" again here which I will reiterate that I don't know. But regardless, even experienced players say dumb things as scum. Even experienced player lurk as scum. They just do. I'm as experienced as anyone here and I've got lynched my last 2 games as scum. I tend to lurk more as scum. I think it's a normal and natural trap to fall into. Yeah, you can WIFOM it, like you can WIFOM every single thing anyone posts ever in this game, but there's no reason. I think you pressure the lurkers. Period. And see what they say/do. If they quit? Well? Someone made some reference to maths that was done on this suggesting that scum replace out at higher frequency than Town. I don't know the math/statictics, but if that's true then it's no more than what I would have expected anyway.
You imply that the AI post makes it less likely that SNL is scum, but (surprise, surprise) don’t really take a stand on it. You’re also pushing the “balls of steel” theory, but SNL fearmongers the hammer vote and then there are four quick “what are you, nuts?” posts, including LnGrrrR’s unvote and then SNL’s own unvote. Late game, that move would take balls of steel. Early game, I don’t think it’s as much of a risk as you assert it to be. Especially since the last vote on SNL (other than KK putting him back at L-2) was almost 50 posts and a day earlier, with a lot of uncertainty on SNL’s alignment in-between.
This fear mongering thing is something I don't quite get. Imagine scum-SNL. Who exactly is he fear mongering? Townies who are afraid that if they vote for him, and he flips Town, then his dire words will come to pass and the rest of the Town will lynch them next? When scum-SNL knows full well that this won't happen because when he's lynched his scumness is revealed for all the world to see? It's the emptiest of threats. Maybe I guess it could "scare" off the really weak-minded who are worried about making a mistake or their own personal appearance. But this isn't most Townies, I think. On the other hand, Town-SNL's threat carries slightly more weight - at least to the scum. Scum know he's Town and might just be slightly more hesitant to drop the hammer on him. And I think Town-SNL is just somewhat more likely to be making a statement like that to begin with. The same way I think Town-SNL is more likely to vote himself in frustration than scum-SNL is to vote himself to L-1 as a ploy. That kind of scum-play involves some fairly next-level thinking, and SNL simply doesn't strike me as that crafty/subtle.
I do probably need to do my own breakdown of that SNL post on AI though. It's possible I'm giving him too much credit for doing "work" when there isn't much to it under the surface.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
No. I thought that was dumb. He ought to know that that makes no sense, because no Selesnyan would ever even try to make that argument. It's like he's trying to guard against the possibility of non-Selesnyans mistakenly thinking Selesnyans must be Town. But no non-Selesnyans are going to be thinking that, when all the Selesnyans themselves are making it very clear that it's perfectly possibly for a Selesnyan to be scum. Again, this appears to be a case of SNL not thinking something all the way through.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I get the sense that SNL is relatively new to Mafia but I'm not sure how that is supposed to excuse his behavior. Even the greenest of townies tend to be internally consistent. Sure they might make rash posts out of frustration or flail occasionally, but they don't generally make a whole slew of nonsensical plays.
To wit:
1. Admitting to bandwagoning one's sole scum read only to OMGUS vote him later when he (justifiably) expresses suspicion.
2. Claim in a format inconsistent from the OP only to later claim additional abilties only to later claim a different role title.
3. Self-vote only to OMGUS an entirely new player once others mention that scum tend to be defeatist.
Everyone (who thinks Void is Town) is assuming he quit because he got so annoyed and/or frustrated with being "attacked" for what he perceived as bad reasons. But the way he just said "/replace" without saying anything else seems to me to weigh against that. If you're quitting because your really just so angry usually something else is said there. Because you're angry, right? You're pissed off. Usually, you tell the people who are pissing you off how they are pissing you off and how full of **** they are and that you're quitting because you just can't deal with idiots like you anymore, etc. etc. That's what getting angry and quitting usually means. Otherwise, you're imagining someone who is seething on the inside, and who, rather than explode his rage into the thread, just elects to quietly replace out. Which shows some restraint at least. Which doesn't quite follow from his getting so raged up in the first place over basically nothing. And even if that's what was going on, why didn't he just say that? He's still not explaining, even in a calm way, that this is why he's stepping down, which seems to go against that idea of him being all mature and restrained about it.
On the other hand, if you are scum and you find yourself catching some heat early and you are the type of player who (1) doesn't like to be scum anyway (2) or maybe just perceives themselves as a poor scum player, it's easy for me to imagine a scum player opting to just quit in that spot because he doesn't want to deal with the pressure of being scum and/or be responsible for being an early scum lynch. And if you were scum quitting in that spot, quitting with a 1-line /replace post would seem to be the correct way to do it, because it gives the Town zero additional information. You don't want to say something that someone could possibly get a read on. If you blow up at the person attacking you, then maybe you've tipped it that said person isn't scum, etc. etc. You just duck out with no explanation whatsoever.
That's why his post/replace made more sense to me as coming from scum then Town. And that's on top of that I didn't like his prior posts to begin with.
• What's the difference between Void’s situation and a lurker’s situation in determining alignment?
Not a lot before he replaced out. "Active lurking" is a thing you watch for, and Void's first couple of posts were like that. Just, here I am, reading the thread, but got nothing to say....This can be worth an early vote - in my oh so humble opinion.
I'm inclined to agree with this. I've seen Void rage before, specifically in Smalltown (and to a lesser extent in Walking Dead, based on CFTWR). Yes, he ragequit as town in Smalltown, but he was very vocal and combative and went out of his way to explain that it was in the best interests of the game for him to exit.
I'm also inclined to agree with AI. The SNL vanilla claim fiasco is too significant to let slide. I'm ready to vote him when we're ready for the day to end.
It's in the OP (last edited a full day before SNL said that)?
Quit being obtuse. WHY is it a "terrible idea?" Meg isn't going to reveal our guilds upon death. It's important that we don't allow leeway with claims.
Oh...
well *****
This. Just because it isn't in writing doesn't mean the information isn't there.
OK
beer and mafia do not mix.
Maybe I'm scum and lied about my guild.
Maybe you'll never know.
carry on
It was something about the blue font and indentation that just didn't register with my brain. I think guild symbols are fine.
Simic wasn't a choice though right?
Obviously. I clicked "Reply" instead of "Quote" in response to scarbo's comment.
ilu
And by too neat I meant votes started shedding off SNL a bit more then I expected.
Unvote
Vote SNL
Axelrod (3): RobRoy, Cantripmancer, Sir Karn
SelesnyaNewLife (7): Hunger, AsianInvasion, Dagaen, Cyouni, dkingsland967, KoolKoal, masterplum
RobRoy (1): Axelrod
Archmage Eternal (1): TK-421
Scarbo (1): Archmage Eternal
AsianInvasion (1): SelesnyaNewLife
KoolKoal (1): Scarbo
With 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch!
Please inform me if there is an error with any vote count.
What do you think that says about those who unvoted SNL? Does it depend on whether he flips town or scum?
Wow. All this argument over SNL's dumb claim? Not a single one of you is lazy? Because I'd sure call myself "Vanilla" if I had no abilities. I'm not going to type out "Citizen of Ravnica" because I'm that lazy.
However, KK's push on SNL is just really terrible. I really like the subtle smear he did at the beginning, stating how bad everyone here is. There's no reason to lynch a player ASAP. If we do decide to lynch SNL, we've no need to do it now. We continue talking until the deadline and vote, or he'd start ruining any discussion and we'd vote him.
Bad, bad.
Vote KoolKoal
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Fair enough on all points.
This made my day.
Sorry, though.
I still think something’s off with the action of balancing wagons. It’s almost like you wanted to test which way the lynch was going.
What were your thoughts on the way he “cased” AI?
I don’t know which portion of your statement “the wifom card” is referring to, but trying to decipher SNL’s self-vote to determine alignment is WIFOM. If he flipped scum, we still wouldn’t know anything about the hammerer because it just as easily could be a scumbuddy ending the Day as it could be a townie convinced of SNL’s scumminess. I can't see that SNL voting himself clears him, although...
@SNL: Please remind me of your mafia experience (other than the one GIP that you're dead in that I know of)?
I have two concerns with a guild claim toDay:
1. It’s been identified that all Selesnyans have a guild ability, which, in the absence of anything else, could lead to scum choosing to kill a Selesnyan instead of the possibility of hitting vanilla town.
2. AE says he cares about guilds, and I don’t trust AE.
I could maybe see some weak benefit to claiming guild toDay, but I don’t see how it outweighs the two above elements. Plus, you know, I don’t really think that you’re in a position to make these kinds of requests until you’ve read the entire thread.
I wish Simic had been an option. #FavoriteGuild
I'm not suspicious of SNL for his claim. What did you think of the way SNL “cased” AI?
There are times that more discussion isn’t helpful until a flip occurs, and sometimes it’s even detrimental.
I haven’t had much concern with KK’s posts this game; do you really think you’re going to derail SNL’s wagon from L-2 and build support for a player with one vote on him based on the above reasoning?
FYI, I was the one that asked. I wanted to know if SNL’s death would reveal his guild ability. Given that it won’t, I’m still onboard with lynching SNL. I think he needs to be given the chance to respond to the latest series of exchanges, but I’m not sure what he could say that would sway me from his lynch. What other discussion needs to happen before the Day ends? Anything?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Yep. Not worth analyzing until the flip I think. Either way we should be able to get something out of it
@Mod - V/LA - from about noon CST today until Sunday I will be without phone/computer access.
I'm gonna call BS. I missed the Simic symbol and that means I'm not paying attention to the thread?
You also missed that Citizen of Ravnica is on the OP sample PM, which I pointed out yesterday as a reason SNL's claim is even worse because he could have seen that after he messed up the vanilla claim.
You also vote for and as KK to sum up his reasons for voting SNL, when he had already done exactly that.
So yeah, I don't think you are paying very close attention.
So first you poorly defend SNL, as if the possible null tell of being lazy should clear him of suspicion.
Then you say I subtly smear everyone at the beginning. How is saying multiple people are bad at mafia with a facepalm smiley subtle? Further, why does my penchant for insulting people suddenly read as scum motivated to you? Its like you've forgotten ever playing with me before.
You also accuse me of trying to lynch SNL ASAP, which is not only putting words into my mouth, but directly counter to what I actually said, that he will be our lynch toDay, and we can wait until discussion has wound down.
This post combined with the rest of your suspect play (poor wagon-hopping and lurking) has proven to me that you're scum, and I'll be happy to lynch you day 2.
@Masterplum:
• What was the "4 claims" comment in 398 regarding?
• Isn’t it a better idea to play to your wincon and let other players learn in the process (perhaps commenting on the situation when it happens/after the game)?
• Why so anti-PTAP?
• When you say "like this", what is "this", exactly?
@Scarbo: Why'd you include Cyouni in 414?
@RobRoy:
• I feel like you handwaved my question about resolving Void's "plan" with his replacement. If Void had a plan as scum, why do you think he wouldn't have anticipated coming under attack? If you think he would have anticipated it, why do you think he replaced out because of the pressure, especially given that it wasn't very much pressure?
• You have been sorta snarky in some responses; what gives? I don't remember your standard being the snark.
@Axel:
• Why does Void’s replace make more sense from scum than town?
• What's the difference between Void’s situation and a lurker’s situation in determining alignment?
• Why the LnGrrrR preamble?
• Did you notice that the logic questions you're highlighting regarding the Void-replace are similar to the ones being asked of you?
@SNL:
• Why did you feel the need to highlight three responders as "non-vanilla"?
• What was your intent with the smiley in response to Scarbo asking why you still haven't answered his question?
• How does your method of "casing" AI give you any insight into AI's alignment?
Thanks for the answer, though. I'm not terribly concerned with Cyouni at the moment, but when I have time, I'll try isoing his posts.
Judging by the quality of recent posts, we've already hit that point.
SNL needs to come in here and give his final thoughts, then we're going to lynch him.
No, not "how did you suspect that they were non-vanilla". "Why would you, as town, go out of your way to identify them as non-vanilla?"
So you didn't answer scarbo's question on purpose? Why?
But you didn't weigh in on any of those elements as towny or scummy. You just said "oh look guys at this scummy pattern that totally ignores content or context". And the pattern is dependent on what you choose to reduce to "comment" or "question". So how is that helpful in any way?
Hmmmmm...this does give me pause, though. I know it's WIFOM, but why would he be posting this warning if we would be on the brink of finding that out anyway with his flip?
@SNL: I remembered another question: Please remind me of your mafia experience?
Considering how much you've missed in the thread, I don't really put much stock in you seeing anything in the thread.
Or as scum, it's a scare tactic that can be used to try to prevent town voting him.
I'm going to assume it's because you were most likely drunk at that point that you missed this obvious point.
I suppose the first is justifiable.
The second, not so much. I fail to see what "being terrible so far" and "not doing anything to argue against your lynch" have to do with each other.
So you're telling me that, for example, because Axelrod took Void's post at face value, you think he's scum. You have no reason behind why that's a scummy action.
And because scarbo took a run at Axelrod, he's town. No reason why that's a townie action.
Same with KoolKoal, AE, and Hunger.
Is that really what you're saying - that you have no reasons behind why any of those actions make someone town/scum?
The way? The listing thing? He's done it before. I'm very to it. It's concise, but also lacks detail, better for the player than for making arguments. If you mean his actual case, AI's hunting has shifted styles. The question/statement is a perfectly legitimate way of hunting. It can actually be a better assessment of someone like me, where I respond all at once.
Yes, exactly. But we don't need to rush ourselves either.
Nope, but I've been hopping around the less viewed players. This is all part of my above reasoning.
Hmmmm, you are right. Your last sentence does say exactly what I said. It's hard for me to read posts that start out with "everyone else is dumb." But his claim is not some smoking gun to his guilt as it feels like many make it out to be. As I read, it felt like every person was saying "He said vanilla not citizen of ravnica, lynch". It's poor evidence and a decision hinging on that would be terrible.
As for your smear, the longer my memory goes, the worse it gets. The only reason I remember Dagaen is that he JUST played SW with me. I know you, I know I've played with you, but your style is now foreign to me. I assume most people aren't naturally as... antagonistic as that, so it reads poorly. (And as you saw, I get flak for being overly nice! Apparently, we're opposites and will clearly explode in a life-ending bang if we touch). It seems that you've forgotten playing with me, since it's common for me to have infrequent posting.
Anyway, it appears I owe you an apology and an unvote.
Unvote
Because my post was not truly about SNL (except the claim). It was about my (wrong) feelings on KK and the arguments regarding the claim. If you want my opinion on SNL, I'll need to invest some time, rather than reading along and responding to what I don't like.
As a note to all, my computer died on... last Friday, I think, and I got really ill on Wednesday, so I'm following along, but it leaves much to be desired.
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? On this site? Can you point me to it?
I don't get what you mean by "better for the player"...which player?
Agreed.
Other than demonstrate that you were on a bunch of players wagons Day 1, what are you hoping to accomplish?
You have no opinion...on the guy on the brink of being lynched? Who's been the focus of the discussion for a couple hundred posts? How is that even remotely possible? I need you to commit to the present moment: Do you think SNL is town or scum?
Yeah, there's this. But I'm really questioning my read with his recent warning.
Bloodthirsty much? We've still got plenty of time before the deadline.
4 was an arbitrary number.
If people do something stupid and aren't punished for it then they have nothing telling them it's not ok. I see it happen often.
Ptap is saying I'm not posting. There is no reason you should ever have nothing to say in 3 days unless you are out of town
My problem is I can see such play coming from a new player.
All right, I'll give you the short-form essay. I'll start by quoting myself in this thread.
Everyone (who thinks Void is Town) is assuming he quit because he got so annoyed and/or frustrated with being "attacked" for what he perceived as bad reasons. But the way he just said "/replace" without saying anything else seems to me to weigh against that. If you're quitting because your really just so angry usually something else is said there. Because you're angry, right? You're pissed off. Usually, you tell the people who are pissing you off how they are pissing you off and how full of **** they are and that you're quitting because you just can't deal with idiots like you anymore, etc. etc. That's what getting angry and quitting usually means. Otherwise, you're imagining someone who is seething on the inside, and who, rather than explode his rage into the thread, just elects to quietly replace out. Which shows some restraint at least. Which doesn't quite follow from his getting so raged up in the first place over basically nothing. And even if that's what was going on, why didn't he just say that? He's still not explaining, even in a calm way, that this is why he's stepping down, which seems to go against that idea of him being all mature and restrained about it.
On the other hand, if you are scum and you find yourself catching some heat early and you are the type of player who (1) doesn't like to be scum anyway (2) or maybe just perceives themselves as a poor scum player, it's easy for me to imagine a scum player opting to just quit in that spot because he doesn't want to deal with the pressure of being scum and/or be responsible for being an early scum lynch. And if you were scum quitting in that spot, quitting with a 1-line /replace post would seem to be the correct way to do it, because it gives the Town zero additional information. You don't want to say something that someone could possibly get a read on. If you blow up at the person attacking you, then maybe you've tipped it that said person isn't scum, etc. etc. You just duck out with no explanation whatsoever.
That's why his post/replace made more sense to me as coming from scum then Town. And that's on top of that I didn't like his prior posts to begin with.
Sure, he could still be Town there. Maybe his mind just works differently. Maybe he's got stuff going on I have no idea about. It's not a lot to go on. It was early. But it's definitely more than nothing, and it was the best lead I felt there was to that point.
Not a lot before he replaced out. "Active lurking" is a thing you watch for, and Void's first couple of posts were like that. Just, here I am, reading the thread, but got nothing to say....This can be worth an early vote - in my oh so humble opinion.
As noted, the way Void replaced out made my suspicions stronger. That was me making that point.
No. Because they're really not.
RR posited a "theory" that scum-Void made bad posts on purpose in order to attract attention to himself. And he did so with the intent to (subsequently) score Townie points by arguing the WIFOM "why would I have made such bad posts as scum?" This is, in fact, what a few people (you?) have been arguing in Void's defense - that scum-Void wouldn't have said such dumb things. So, RR's "Theory" is that this was all according to plan.
My point concerning RR's theory was (1) that it's dumb. This is a bad plan. To draw attention to yourself intentionally and then hope to WIFOM it away with "but why would I have done that as scum...." That is not a plan I would imagine very many scum coming up with. Because dumb. But EVEN IF that was the plan, then it seems the theory falls apart with Void asking to replace out. Why did he ask to replace out if this was what was going on? That really makes no sense.
My point concerning Void's play is not WIFOMY at all. My point is that scum make mistakes. Scum dig themselves into holes. Unintentionally. Not realizing at the time that whatever it is that they were saying was going to draw all this attention to themselves. I can easily see Void making the posts he made without thinking/realizing that he might get heavily criticized for them.
You're referencing Void's "experience" again here which I will reiterate that I don't know. But regardless, even experienced players say dumb things as scum. Even experienced player lurk as scum. They just do. I'm as experienced as anyone here and I've got lynched my last 2 games as scum. I tend to lurk more as scum. I think it's a normal and natural trap to fall into. Yeah, you can WIFOM it, like you can WIFOM every single thing anyone posts ever in this game, but there's no reason. I think you pressure the lurkers. Period. And see what they say/do. If they quit? Well? Someone made some reference to maths that was done on this suggesting that scum replace out at higher frequency than Town. I don't know the math/statictics, but if that's true then it's no more than what I would have expected anyway.
This fear mongering thing is something I don't quite get. Imagine scum-SNL. Who exactly is he fear mongering? Townies who are afraid that if they vote for him, and he flips Town, then his dire words will come to pass and the rest of the Town will lynch them next? When scum-SNL knows full well that this won't happen because when he's lynched his scumness is revealed for all the world to see? It's the emptiest of threats. Maybe I guess it could "scare" off the really weak-minded who are worried about making a mistake or their own personal appearance. But this isn't most Townies, I think. On the other hand, Town-SNL's threat carries slightly more weight - at least to the scum. Scum know he's Town and might just be slightly more hesitant to drop the hammer on him. And I think Town-SNL is just somewhat more likely to be making a statement like that to begin with. The same way I think Town-SNL is more likely to vote himself in frustration than scum-SNL is to vote himself to L-1 as a ploy. That kind of scum-play involves some fairly next-level thinking, and SNL simply doesn't strike me as that crafty/subtle.
I do probably need to do my own breakdown of that SNL post on AI though. It's possible I'm giving him too much credit for doing "work" when there isn't much to it under the surface.
Once again, he is new?
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To wit:
1. Admitting to bandwagoning one's sole scum read only to OMGUS vote him later when he (justifiably) expresses suspicion.
2. Claim in a format inconsistent from the OP only to later claim additional abilties only to later claim a different role title.
3. Self-vote only to OMGUS an entirely new player once others mention that scum tend to be defeatist.
This seems pretty cut and dry to me.
I'm inclined to agree with this. I've seen Void rage before, specifically in Smalltown (and to a lesser extent in Walking Dead, based on CFTWR). Yes, he ragequit as town in Smalltown, but he was very vocal and combative and went out of his way to explain that it was in the best interests of the game for him to exit.
I'm also inclined to agree with AI. The SNL vanilla claim fiasco is too significant to let slide. I'm ready to vote him when we're ready for the day to end.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Signs point to hammering and ending the day now.