I don't consider this a point against Vi unless the person who referenced this (was it llama?) can provide some more context and Vi actually claims so we can determine if there's a situational difference that would have called for her early claim there and her stall claim now.
In response, I point to the wagon on me last game that completely fell apart.
Your move.
Different circumstances - you weren't the first and only wagon of the day, with all of the active players clamoring for your death, only your death, and nothing but your death. In addition, your claim wasn't the reason your wagon fell apart (at least it wasn't for me).
How about a third option. What say this conversation is going like (grossly simplified)
"Nah, that's not it."
"Yeah, that's it."
"Nah, that's not it."
"Yeah, that's it."
and that we're talking past each other. Yes?
We might be, but at least I appear to be extroverting trying to understand your points. I can't even get you guys to fake that for me.
You yourself said at some point that until Voxxicus showed up that the wagon looked Town-driven, so I'm ~guessing~ that you think Voxxicus is scum or at the very least not obviously Town.
I am amazed you think that since earlier you were complainging that i had said the whole wagon was town.
Well done, that contains zero reads I didn't already pick up on.
I disagree, and even if it's true you're still pointing out a lot of rather clear opinions about players - and then trying to make it sound like a brain bender to figure out what I'm saying.
And the reason I want to know is because in the event that you're Town, your reads would be useful for bouncing mine off of
We're not going to get any bounce while I think you're scum and am trying to lynch you - that's crazy talk. You need to defuse the case or get me going somewhere else first. That's basic strategy.
You know, if DYH hammers then the collection of people off of Vi's wagon will be 100% of the supertownies. (supertown = usually obvtown very strong towngame)
So you're saying 100% of the scum team is working on this lynch?
Because that should be a screaming sign to you that some of your reads are gakked up I would think. It would certainly be my reaction - what's your reaction?
We might be [talking past each other], but at least I appear to be extroverting trying to understand your points. I can't even get you guys to fake that for me.
Sadly, getting you to acknowledge that we might be in mutual disbelief of each other's better efforts feels like a major accomplishment.
I don't know which would be worse, finding out later that I've been trying to convert scum or that this is your idea of a good-faith discussion.
Quote from "Thor 602" »
I disagree, and even if it's true you're still pointing out a lot of rather clear opinions about players - and then trying to make it sound like a brain bender to figure out what I'm saying.
I dunno, I managed to get a few too many of those wrong for that to be the case.
Remarkably, you're going out of your way to not help me with what I actually wanted to know, and what will probably be interesting to more than just me in the near future.
Quote from "Thor 602" »
We're not going to get any bounce while I think you're scum and am trying to lynch you - that's crazy talk. You need to defuse the case or get me going somewhere else first. That's basic strategy.
At this point I don't care what you think of my reads, because you're an obstacle at best. I'm interested in furthering my reads based in part on what scant little I can get out of the six obstinate stone statues on my wagon. If you have something that's actually helpful for figuring the game out, stop wasting everyone's time and get on with it.
I don't consider this a point against Vi unless the person who referenced this (was it llama?) can provide some more context and Vi actually claims so we can determine if there's a situational difference that would have called for her early claim there and her stall claim now.
In response, I point to the wagon on me last game that completely fell apart.
Your move.
Different circumstances - you weren't the first and only wagon of the day, with all of the active players clamoring for your death, only your death, and nothing but your death. In addition, your claim wasn't the reason your wagon fell apart (at least it wasn't for me).
*turns egg timer over*
At that point, I was the only one who'd gotten to claim range. Regardless, that's irrelevant to your argument.
And according to your argument, I would have been policy lynched because I claimed vanilla, helped by the fact that not a single MTGS player was on my wagon. Yet there were no players attempting to do that.
I'm town, but free time is extremely limited, and not sure I have the time to spend on two games. I keep trying to get invested in this, but I get distracted by shiny things like food, sleep, work, and then motivation drains away.
I'll give it another day or two to see if this general exhaustion improves before formally requesting replacement - tomorrow shouldn't be super busy, so perhaps I'll make it through the thread.
I'm certainly seeing a not-hammering-my-buddy scenario at work - but it's not just Nacho that's doing it.
I'm not sure I buy the Llama as partner concept though. I think if she's scum he's town and vice versa. The relationship from Vi's side doesn't feel like a distance bus, and the derp and easily ignorable defense from him doesn't feel like he actually opposes the wagon going through, simply that he is noted as being against it.
@Nacho - Re:Cyouni's questions generally not going anywhere, as I said earlier on in the game, this is the case. However, in the long term, the point becomes distinguishing if his 'going nowhere questions' are actually him trying to figure things out but bumping into all kinds of walls, or him finding something to pick at in a corner. I'm not quite sure which it is with him just yet. Beyond that, reading Cyouni pre-flip is also a bit of a tone thing. As of right now, #335-338 still reads the worst of his posts to me.
Re: DYH's slot - Those two, and #337. His reaction to Cyouni's #335 felt very much like unimpressed town.
@Cyouni - Re:Vierni calling Cyan scum: Fair enough on #199 and #279 if that was indeed the case. The 'not reading carefully' cheapshot isn't appreciated, though, given that I'm trying to refresh my entire memory of the game person by person. However, a question, then - even if that was the case, that Vierni was calling Cyan the 'only scum in that three' in a really roundabout way... what exactly did you find objectionable about that? That she indirectly called you town?
Re: Thor/Iso: Suffice it to say I disagree that said line of questioning was 'going nowhere'. Taken as a whole, the entire Iso/Thor dynamic never felt quite right. That point I directed at Thor (my main suspect at the time, mind) was one part of those strange interactions. Iso's accusation felt illogical and ill-supported, with the naked bussing accusation based on false premises. Thor didn't pick on those false premises and instead produced a rather less aggressive response than I would have expected from him, given the way he and Iso went at it previous game. What part of 'that feels unnatural' to me did you somehow continue to fail to understand throughout several posts, until you dropped and hastily picked the argument up again?
As for your llamarble and Vierni justifications, I'll keep those in mind while I finish my re-read on each of them.
@Thor - Re:Voxxicus: His post in Mafia Discussion was to the effect of 'with all due respect to day 1... I'm a flip-driven player'. In other words, precisely the kind of person that would go 'just lynch someone and I'll sort it out with flips' rather than sounding reluctant about it and downplaying the information to be gained from it. Mm. Yes. Come to think of it, that last did kind of smack of downplaying potential information.
Also, that same post in Mafia Discussion also contains him describing his playstyle as a PoE process, where he identifies town and narrows down the scum that way. That fits somewhat with what he did previous game, where he came in and decided several people were town. That's not what he did here. His first post of significance was instead to single out three to four people as scum. This doesn't tally with his own description of his play, unless he somehow decided all other seven players were town. Which I seriously doubt.
....gah, that took forever. llamarble up next.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
...the stupid smiley is supposed to be a colon followed by a capital V. I hate this coding sometimes.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
#88 #192: Hm. Is actually supportive of the Vi wagon early on. #202-207: ...or not, apparently. Although Vi is 'probably town' with reservations. Calls KoL town. Has Tammy/Iso/Nacho/myself as possible scum. Rubbishes Thor's timeline, which I seem to recall not being terribly impressed by either, so fair enough. #210-211: Reaffirms not reading Vierni as scum. Otherwise nothing. #224 #228: Heh. #229: KoL = town, Vierni = not scummy, Thor = possible scum. All with not much reasoning. Mmh. #233-235: Votes Thor. Refuses to answer Thor's question, implying his reasoning for disagreeing is similar to others. (*Note to self to cross-check later.) #249: Fair enough. I do agree the point was kind of weak. #339: Still thinks KoL and Vierni aren't scum. Still has me as a 'maybescum', still with no idea why. Has Thor as a 'maybescum' too... wait, does he actually think Thor and I are scum together? How does that work?
(*@Cyouni: I'm not seeing the problem here. His list obviously was calling both Iso and Cyan scum, in different words. He explicitly says 'Iso and Cyan might be the best lynches' before voting Iso. As of #448, I'm pretty certain that if this was the only reason you were 'not enthused' by llamarble, that's a pretty weak point.)
#360-361 #365-369: ...I don't actually see anything wrong with this? #374 #384: This phrasing is a bit odd. I seem to recall him being almost insulted when someone called his towniness into question last game. Have to check. #400: I actually agree with most of this, excepting the bit on #349. I took at quick look at Iso's #349, and it seems a more useful post than llamarble makes it sound here. #406-408 #418-421: ...is going back through the thread for some reason? And his assertion about as-of-page-6 Nacho and Tammy is both oddly placed (why now? Last he mentioned them he had them as 'not likely to be scum'.) and still totally unquantified. #424: ...yes, I'm still not getting this. He's still not giving any reasons whatsoever, which is irritating. Iso questioning him about this is actually a minor point in favour of Iso. #538: Still disagrees with the Vierni lynch. Still apparently not doing that much about it, though. Nacho is later entirely right when he says that it's strange that llamarble apparently just dropped talking about Iso. #577: ....wait. Why is Vierni suspicious of this post again? #585: This, on the other hand... now Tammy is back to 'town', as is Nacho, and now I'm on his list of townies? And didn't he just blast Nacho in #577 for asking him why he was 'wasting so much time sorting Vi'? #592-596: Huh. The implication from his first line here is that he doesn't think KoL is 'obvtown' any more. And now thinks the DYH-slot is scum. @llamarble: Re: DYH-now-kpaca - why?
llamarble has actually posted little to no justification for his reads at all, and they seem to change as the wind blows. Which I would be all over calling scum if it wasn't for the fact this is mostly exactly what he did as town the previous game. Also, I largely agree with the justifications he did posted in the middle of the day, re: Iso and Thor.
However, he does have two consistent reads - Iso as scum, and Vierni as not scum. From what I recall right now, I actually agree with both of these, but this is contingent on me looking over both of them again. Every other read of his seems to have shifted drastically, but these two haven't changed from pretty much the beginning of the game. This is worth noting for later consideration.
Overall, however, I have him as annoyingly null. There's enough niggling to make me uncomfortable with him, but when he does post reasons I kind of agree with them.
Next is Vierni. This is 100% not going to finish today. Will try to look it over tonight.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I don't consider this a point against Vi unless the person who referenced this (was it llama?) can provide some more context and Vi actually claims so we can determine if there's a situational difference that would have called for her early claim there and her stall claim now.
In response, I point to the wagon on me last game that completely fell apart.
Your move.
Different circumstances - you weren't the first and only wagon of the day, with all of the active players clamoring for your death, only your death, and nothing but your death. In addition, your claim wasn't the reason your wagon fell apart (at least it wasn't for me).
*turns egg timer over*
At that point, I was the only one who'd gotten to claim range. Regardless, that's irrelevant to your argument.
And according to your argument, I would have been policy lynched because I claimed vanilla, helped by the fact that not a single MTGS player was on my wagon. Yet there were no players attempting to do that.
Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Your move.
Quote from "Cyan 433, CT1" »
MS players may not realize it(judging by KoL's post, their perspective on vanilla claims seems to be different than ours), but on here, when someone claims Vanilla, they generally get lynched. That is why Cyouni claiming Vanilla looks good for Cyouni. He didn't try to make up some claim and hope it works out, he just claimed his real role(though he obviously COULD be Vanilla Mafia) and hoped it would work out. This speaks well for him, IMO.
So there is this post (half of which I remembered). But see also (the same person, as Town <_< ) say this.
Quote from "Cyan 851, CT1" »
Claiming VT is why you wouldn't be lynched? What? Vanilla is a claim that should ALWAYS get lynched. It's a completely safe claim for a scum to make, and has a built in excuse for never getting NKed.
Quote from "Cyan 862, CT1" »
It's great to know that any scum can just claim Vanilla Town on MS and no one will ever look at them again. To me, THAT is 'sub-optimal'. And Doctor is nowhere near as 'safe' of a claim as Vanilla. It is a risky claim, because on our site, there is almost always a town Doc. So when you false-claim Doc as scum, you are usually just trying to draw a counterclaim from the real one so that your team can NK him. And said real Doc should ALWAYS counterclaim, because getting a 1 for 1 trade is completely acceptable for the town.
And, most importantly, Iso is from this site. He knows fully well that Vanilla is not a claim (around here) that keeps one from getting lynched.
And to head off your next point I'll go down to the next relevant quote.
Quote from "Cyan 869, CT1" »
Cyouni's behavior/claim was believable because he plainly expected to get lynched.
Iso's behavior is not believable because he expects us to believe that we were not going to lynch him with a VT claim.
from which you can generate a variety of counterpoints relevant to this game, not least of which was that Iso was Town, and the second of which being that I'm not actually that interested in acquiescing to a lynch, from which you can derive that I'm trying to avoid what happened to Iso.
In summary,
1) In case it's not evident I didn't carefully pore through the previous game because I have other things to do with my life (i.e. this post took up my morning),
2) I rather grossly miscounted how many people were pushing this, and
3) I recognize now more than ever that trying to work with Cyan was an idea with no hope from the beginning.
@Thor - Re:Voxxicus: His post in Mafia Discussion was to the effect of 'with all due respect to day 1... I'm a flip-driven player'. In other words, precisely the kind of person that would go 'just lynch someone and I'll sort it out with flips' rather than sounding reluctant about it and downplaying the information to be gained from it. Mm. Yes. Come to think of it, that last did kind of smack of downplaying potential information.
I'm a flip and PoE kind of player - I still like to force Day 1 to have people take stances about stuff, especially the eventual flip.
I understand that he has indicated he is a flip sort of player - but I fail to see where he has indicated that Day 1 should be a speed lynch. Can you clarify that? Because if so then I'm all about this logic, and if not then I'm left wondering where you're coming from.
"So you're saying 100% of the scum team is working on this lynch?
Because that should be a screaming sign to you that some of your reads are gakked up I would think. It would certainly be my reaction - what's your reaction?"
You are a strange creature.
I think your statement that DGB cannot comprehend logic is an overstatement but not utterly unfair either.
You can do that; I'd say your inadequacy is more in evaluating the merits of arguments.
Combine that with an 'arguing instead of thinking together' attitude and I think that's why it can be attractive to ignore your posts sometimes.
That being said you're a good player who deserves to represent MS with a strong scumgame and a solid overall towngame.
Right...
3 scum needed to push through a d1 wagon on a high value town player like Vi isn't unreasonable.
It's also worth noting that your "is" is misplaced; my statement is more along "I believe there are two scum currently voting Vi and that if the third scum votes Vi then there will be three scum voting Vi."
Sounds much more reasonable when not Thor-distorted doesn't it
I think there's more to say Nacho is town than Tammy. Tammy is usually obvtown when she's town and here she isn't. I get votes whenever I'm not obvtown so maybe she should too.
It's also worth noting that your "is" is misplaced; my statement is more along "I believe there are two scum currently voting Vi and that if the third scum votes Vi then there will be three scum voting Vi."
Sounds much more reasonable when not Thor-distorted doesn't it
What do you have to connect them all? Because otherwise that's just three top suspects, and you should know as well as I how rarely scum team call outs on Day 1 are actually correct.
You know what, I distorted my own statement too.
Let's be clearer. Actually I was pretty clear in the first place.
"You know, if DYH hammers then the collection of people off of Vi's wagon will be 100% of the supertownies. (supertown = usually obvtown very strong towngame)"
-Me
Which doesn't even state that all three scum are on the wagon since it makes the distinction between supertown (property of the player) and obvtown (property of the slot).
And then I stated that I wouldn't be at all surprised with myself if I managed to call the scumteam D1; I've done it before and I'll do it again.
I simply haven't analyzed enough to feel significant certainty here yet, but eh.
Basically the objection you raise is:
Always a mediocre argument (scum cannot all be on one half of the bagel is a common derp)
Not even relevant
Particularly weak applied to a monster such as myself
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If there's scum off the wagon, it pretty much has to be llamarble. So if llamarble is Town - which is unfortunately not especially unlikely - that means we have three scum on the wagon after all. Enjoy.
kpaca's entrance was pretty much the equivalent of a scumclaim; I'd start there. No one replaces into a game, puts out feelers over whether they'd be able to hammer someone, and then does it over flimsy provocation. Even Fate would just hammer someone outright and cackle maniacally for another few posts.
That leaves two in {Cyan, Thor, Goofball, Iso, Voxxicus, Cyouni}. I'm still going to strike Cyouni. I don't think Iso and Cyan are scum together. If neither of them are scum then that leaves two in {Thor, Goofball, Voxxicus}, and while it's a possibility I'm not so convinced in either Iso or Cyan (more so Iso) that it's solid.
If there's one scum in the bunch then it's a tough call between the guy who argues for its own sake, the foaming nutcase, and the flurker, and I don't feel prepared to make a call here.
So, largely for pinning it in the dead thread and banking that llamarble is being trollishly bad at being Town, I'll place my bet on {kpaca, Iso, Voxxicus}. Voxxicus has the highest probability of being wrong, but the other options aren't very good.
I would also like to point out that I can actually appreciate Cyouni's approach to things Today. The rest of you who didn't draw scum PMs should seriously reconsider ever calling yourself good players, because this was a pretty obvious Town lynch.
Did I say "pretty obvious"? I mean starkly, amazingly obvious.
kpaca's entrance was pretty much the equivalent of a scumclaim; I'd start there. No one replaces into a game, puts out feelers over whether they'd be able to hammer someone, and then does it over flimsy provocation. Even Fate would just hammer someone outright and cackle maniacally for another few posts.
Bonus points for doing so when four people were calling me Town without reservation. You don't normally see that kind of polarization, and when it does happen I'd suggest that the people who are calling Town are more informed on the subject than the ones calling scum. But even so, four people - everyone off the wagon except kpaca himself. Two of whom were off-the-table Town.
kpaca's entrance was pretty much the equivalent of a scumclaim; I'd start there. No one replaces into a game, puts out feelers over whether they'd be able to hammer someone, and then does it over flimsy provocation. Even Fate would just hammer someone outright and cackle maniacally for another few posts.
Bonus points for doing so when four people were calling me Town without reservation. You don't normally see that kind of polarization, and when it does happen I'd suggest that the people who are calling Town are more informed on the subject than the ones calling scum. But even so, four people - everyone off the wagon except kpaca himself. Two of whom were off-the-table Town.
Well someone sure is upset about being dead.
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I'll place my bet on {kpaca, Iso, Voxxicus}. Voxxicus has the highest probability of being wrong, but the other options aren't very good.
The fun part of this prediction is that it agrees with Thor that prior to Voxxicus the wagon was Town-driven. By the worst Townies we've got, but nonetheless.
Quote from "Condoms 626" »
Well someone sure is upset about being dead.
Do keep posting these brilliant insights. They'll lynch you for it sometime in December.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Hey, at least I didn't vote you.
And I explained how such reasons as folks gave were full moron.
I wasn't going to stomp all over Thor's soul before I was even current though.
My, my, my, MY
WAGON hits me - so hard
Makes me say - oh my lord
Thank you - for blessing me
With peeps who know me like Tammy
It feels good! when yer voted down
a part-time birdie from DRey Town
and I'm known - as such
a wagon even llamarble (uh!) won't touch
I TOLD you, Goofball - U can't touch this
Yeah, that's how we hangin' and you know - U can't touch this
Look at my av, (wo)maaaan - U can't touch this
Yo, let me bust the funky lyrics (U can't touch this)
Told to claim, advance
You got it to four, Iso wanna see dance
He moved - Cyan from heat
To get a fly bird to think with feet
Too earlay - hold on!
Push a little bit and let 'em know it's goin' on
Like that - Like that
Scum's on a mission so push me back
To say - that you're too much
That this is a mob (uh!) I can't touch
But seriously, yo - U can't touch this Why you lurkin', Cyan? - U can't touch this
Yo, start the Day, school's in, sucka! U can't touch this
Get someone Town a minute
They'll say you're wrong, like they already given
In hopes - you know
You talkin' 'bout a fluffbird, you talkin' 'bout inno
That's back - to the wall
Voxxy hasn't even explained at all
Or Thor - confused
Doesn't quite see that the Vi refused
To give - legit
I'm still here 'cuz Town don't quit
That's word, 'cuz you know... U Can't Touch This
♪ ♪ U Can't Touch This
♪ ♪ U Can't Touch This
Quote from "llamarble 585" »
You know, if DYH hammers then the collection of people off of Vi's wagon will be 100% of the supertownies. (supertown = usually obvtown very strong towngame)
That's me Tammy Vi Nacho and DC (by reputation anyway).
Okay I quickly caught up and am going to ramble as I'm falling asleep. If something doesn't make sense don't mind me. I've been thinking it was Thursday, which should tell you how long the past few days have been, but I found a box of winter clothes and pajamas so I'm happy!
I'm bothered that the only real wagon today was on Vi. I hate that no one on that wagon thought for a second they could be wrong.
But as I said before if by some weird chance he flips scum, which is pretty unlikely given his post lynch behavior. But if the bizarre happens then kami and Thor are town and cyan is likely town.
But if he flips town, can't see how he won't, bets off on those three.
Thor is probably town anyway. I'm going to give that tentative read even though the things I've picked up, or think I have, for how to read him haven't shown up. But I still think he's town. In fact he's probably the only person I feel good about being town right now. I'm just going on gut here though, I hope one of those two things happen so I can feel out that read better.
I have a paranoid theory about kami. Virtual punches coming your way if I so much as hear a muttering of paranoid scum tell. I went back and read mini 1499 and gay mafia. I know that it's silly to meta her but I did it any way. Anyway, she started off pretty helpful and less trolly in that game as scum and my paranoid theory is that she's scum, and knowing that the mtgsers don't like the spamming troll style modified it to be more pleasing. But then there are just some really genuine moments that remind me of ladies night, so I'm kinda hrm there.
Trojan man is annoying. I liked DYH, so we'll see. It was a bad hammer and a lame setup.
Voxxicus - who?
I'm actually liking cyouni a little more.
Nacho is making me feel uneasy. I'm just not feeling him, as he just feels like he's going through the motions. And Thor was right about why if he had that serious strong read why wasn't he doing something about it? Don't get the isoing everyone else but Vi to show why Vi was town. He did a mini one for marble but not for Vi. He just doesn't feel right and unfortunately it looks like I'm not going to be sure about him until day three.
Also I have a sneakin suspicion the he's bussing cyan, who I don't like anymore. The lack of scumhunting and the continual being here and not saying anything is terrible.
Iso is frustrating because he's not aggressive at all and he doesn't seem to be figuring out the game.
As far as llamarble goes. I'll be kinda disappointed if he's town. And it's not the not being caught up but just I don't know. I guess he hasn't read the whole thing, but some of the reads he's given have just struck me from left field that I have a hard time seeing town him giving them. I hope he picks up on day two.
I think that's all I had to say, if I remember anything else I'll mention it.
Oh it felt werd to me that desc and nacho were isoing at same time. What I didn't like with desc iso is he says the most important thing is Vi, but he doesn't iso him, he does others. Yes I know he explains it but Vi was the most important one to get done.
The whole verbal razzle-dazzle #SWAG gonna rap now > clear communication of meaning
looked like deliberate obfuscation. Vierni might still be scum, but if she's town, in fancying up the language, she transformed some simple ideas into contradictions, weird priorities and illogical statements.
There may be one scum on this wagon regardless of Vi's alignment. One white-knight, and one lurkaderp staying out of it.
*turns egg timer over*
We might be, but at least I appear to be extroverting trying to understand your points. I can't even get you guys to fake that for me.
That would be correct, I even explicitly stated it a few times.
No it doesn't. It means I don't see what you're calling her out on as representative of scum Goofball. It looked pretty clear to me.
I am amazed you think that since earlier you were complainging that i had said the whole wagon was town.
More null to scum - I said it was the *first* time he'd looked to be doing anything town.
It sounds more like Nacho scum with Vi scum to me.
Yup.
Amazing how many reads I'm continually expressing, isn't it?
I disagree, and even if it's true you're still pointing out a lot of rather clear opinions about players - and then trying to make it sound like a brain bender to figure out what I'm saying.
We're not going to get any bounce while I think you're scum and am trying to lynch you - that's crazy talk. You need to defuse the case or get me going somewhere else first. That's basic strategy.
I have to say you've claimed to have read before, and you haven't earned enough bank to make anyone care about your reads yet.
So you're saying 100% of the scum team is working on this lynch?
Because that should be a screaming sign to you that some of your reads are gakked up I would think. It would certainly be my reaction - what's your reaction?
I don't know which would be worse, finding out later that I've been trying to convert scum or that this is your idea of a good-faith discussion.
I dunno, I managed to get a few too many of those wrong for that to be the case.
Remarkably, you're going out of your way to not help me with what I actually wanted to know, and what will probably be interesting to more than just me in the near future.
At this point I don't care what you think of my reads, because you're an obstacle at best. I'm interested in furthering my reads based in part on what scant little I can get out of the six obstinate stone statues on my wagon. If you have something that's actually helpful for figuring the game out, stop wasting everyone's time and get on with it.
And according to your argument, I would have been policy lynched because I claimed vanilla, helped by the fact that not a single MTGS player was on my wagon. Yet there were no players attempting to do that.
Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Your move.
I'm town, but free time is extremely limited, and not sure I have the time to spend on two games. I keep trying to get invested in this, but I get distracted by shiny things like food, sleep, work, and then motivation drains away.
I'll give it another day or two to see if this general exhaustion improves before formally requesting replacement - tomorrow shouldn't be super busy, so perhaps I'll make it through the thread.
I'm certainly seeing a not-hammering-my-buddy scenario at work - but it's not just Nacho that's doing it.
I'm not sure I buy the Llama as partner concept though. I think if she's scum he's town and vice versa. The relationship from Vi's side doesn't feel like a distance bus, and the derp and easily ignorable defense from him doesn't feel like he actually opposes the wagon going through, simply that he is noted as being against it.
@Nacho - Re:Cyouni's questions generally not going anywhere, as I said earlier on in the game, this is the case. However, in the long term, the point becomes distinguishing if his 'going nowhere questions' are actually him trying to figure things out but bumping into all kinds of walls, or him finding something to pick at in a corner. I'm not quite sure which it is with him just yet. Beyond that, reading Cyouni pre-flip is also a bit of a tone thing. As of right now, #335-338 still reads the worst of his posts to me.
Re: DYH's slot - Those two, and #337. His reaction to Cyouni's #335 felt very much like unimpressed town.
@Cyouni - Re:Vierni calling Cyan scum: Fair enough on #199 and #279 if that was indeed the case. The 'not reading carefully' cheapshot isn't appreciated, though, given that I'm trying to refresh my entire memory of the game person by person. However, a question, then - even if that was the case, that Vierni was calling Cyan the 'only scum in that three' in a really roundabout way... what exactly did you find objectionable about that? That she indirectly called you town?
Re: Thor/Iso: Suffice it to say I disagree that said line of questioning was 'going nowhere'. Taken as a whole, the entire Iso/Thor dynamic never felt quite right. That point I directed at Thor (my main suspect at the time, mind) was one part of those strange interactions. Iso's accusation felt illogical and ill-supported, with the naked bussing accusation based on false premises. Thor didn't pick on those false premises and instead produced a rather less aggressive response than I would have expected from him, given the way he and Iso went at it previous game. What part of 'that feels unnatural' to me did you somehow continue to fail to understand throughout several posts, until you dropped and hastily picked the argument up again?
As for your llamarble and Vierni justifications, I'll keep those in mind while I finish my re-read on each of them.
@Thor - Re:Voxxicus: His post in Mafia Discussion was to the effect of 'with all due respect to day 1... I'm a flip-driven player'. In other words, precisely the kind of person that would go 'just lynch someone and I'll sort it out with flips' rather than sounding reluctant about it and downplaying the information to be gained from it. Mm. Yes. Come to think of it, that last did kind of smack of downplaying potential information.
Also, that same post in Mafia Discussion also contains him describing his playstyle as a PoE process, where he identifies town and narrows down the scum that way. That fits somewhat with what he did previous game, where he came in and decided several people were town. That's not what he did here. His first post of significance was instead to single out three to four people as scum. This doesn't tally with his own description of his play, unless he somehow decided all other seven players were town. Which I seriously doubt.
....gah, that took forever. llamarble up next.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
...the stupid smiley is supposed to be a colon followed by a capital V. I hate this coding sometimes.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
#88
#192: Hm. Is actually supportive of the Vi wagon early on.
#202-207: ...or not, apparently. Although Vi is 'probably town' with reservations. Calls KoL town. Has Tammy/Iso/Nacho/myself as possible scum. Rubbishes Thor's timeline, which I seem to recall not being terribly impressed by either, so fair enough.
#210-211: Reaffirms not reading Vierni as scum. Otherwise nothing.
#224
#228: Heh.
#229: KoL = town, Vierni = not scummy, Thor = possible scum. All with not much reasoning. Mmh.
#233-235: Votes Thor. Refuses to answer Thor's question, implying his reasoning for disagreeing is similar to others. (*Note to self to cross-check later.)
#249: Fair enough. I do agree the point was kind of weak.
#339: Still thinks KoL and Vierni aren't scum. Still has me as a 'maybescum', still with no idea why. Has Thor as a 'maybescum' too... wait, does he actually think Thor and I are scum together? How does that work?
(*@Cyouni: I'm not seeing the problem here. His list obviously was calling both Iso and Cyan scum, in different words. He explicitly says 'Iso and Cyan might be the best lynches' before voting Iso. As of #448, I'm pretty certain that if this was the only reason you were 'not enthused' by llamarble, that's a pretty weak point.)
#360-361
#365-369: ...I don't actually see anything wrong with this?
#374
#384: This phrasing is a bit odd. I seem to recall him being almost insulted when someone called his towniness into question last game. Have to check.
#400: I actually agree with most of this, excepting the bit on #349. I took at quick look at Iso's #349, and it seems a more useful post than llamarble makes it sound here.
#406-408
#418-421: ...is going back through the thread for some reason? And his assertion about as-of-page-6 Nacho and Tammy is both oddly placed (why now? Last he mentioned them he had them as 'not likely to be scum'.) and still totally unquantified.
#424: ...yes, I'm still not getting this. He's still not giving any reasons whatsoever, which is irritating. Iso questioning him about this is actually a minor point in favour of Iso.
#538: Still disagrees with the Vierni lynch. Still apparently not doing that much about it, though. Nacho is later entirely right when he says that it's strange that llamarble apparently just dropped talking about Iso.
#577: ....wait. Why is Vierni suspicious of this post again?
#585: This, on the other hand... now Tammy is back to 'town', as is Nacho, and now I'm on his list of townies? And didn't he just blast Nacho in #577 for asking him why he was 'wasting so much time sorting Vi'?
#592-596: Huh. The implication from his first line here is that he doesn't think KoL is 'obvtown' any more. And now thinks the DYH-slot is scum. @llamarble: Re: DYH-now-kpaca - why?
llamarble has actually posted little to no justification for his reads at all, and they seem to change as the wind blows. Which I would be all over calling scum if it wasn't for the fact this is mostly exactly what he did as town the previous game. Also, I largely agree with the justifications he did posted in the middle of the day, re: Iso and Thor.
However, he does have two consistent reads - Iso as scum, and Vierni as not scum. From what I recall right now, I actually agree with both of these, but this is contingent on me looking over both of them again. Every other read of his seems to have shifted drastically, but these two haven't changed from pretty much the beginning of the game. This is worth noting for later consideration.
Overall, however, I have him as annoyingly null. There's enough niggling to make me uncomfortable with him, but when he does post reasons I kind of agree with them.
Next is Vierni. This is 100% not going to finish today. Will try to look it over tonight.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
In summary,
1) In case it's not evident I didn't carefully pore through the previous game because I have other things to do with my life (i.e. this post took up my morning),
2) I rather grossly miscounted how many people were pushing this, and
3) I recognize now more than ever that trying to work with Cyan was an idea with no hope from the beginning.
I'm a flip and PoE kind of player - I still like to force Day 1 to have people take stances about stuff, especially the eventual flip.
I understand that he has indicated he is a flip sort of player - but I fail to see where he has indicated that Day 1 should be a speed lynch. Can you clarify that? Because if so then I'm all about this logic, and if not then I'm left wondering where you're coming from.
Because that should be a screaming sign to you that some of your reads are gakked up I would think. It would certainly be my reaction - what's your reaction?"
You are a strange creature.
I think your statement that DGB cannot comprehend logic is an overstatement but not utterly unfair either.
You can do that; I'd say your inadequacy is more in evaluating the merits of arguments.
Combine that with an 'arguing instead of thinking together' attitude and I think that's why it can be attractive to ignore your posts sometimes.
That being said you're a good player who deserves to represent MS with a strong scumgame and a solid overall towngame.
Right...
3 scum needed to push through a d1 wagon on a high value town player like Vi isn't unreasonable.
It's also worth noting that your "is" is misplaced; my statement is more along "I believe there are two scum currently voting Vi and that if the third scum votes Vi then there will be three scum voting Vi."
Sounds much more reasonable when not Thor-distorted doesn't it
I think there's more to say Nacho is town than Tammy. Tammy is usually obvtown when she's town and here she isn't. I get votes whenever I'm not obvtown so maybe she should too.
/ramble
I personally think that with the way the wagon has grown and what resistance it has felt that this is pretty off-base.
What do you have to connect them all? Because otherwise that's just three top suspects, and you should know as well as I how rarely scum team call outs on Day 1 are actually correct.
Let's be clearer. Actually I was pretty clear in the first place.
"You know, if DYH hammers then the collection of people off of Vi's wagon will be 100% of the supertownies. (supertown = usually obvtown very strong towngame)"
-Me
Which doesn't even state that all three scum are on the wagon since it makes the distinction between supertown (property of the player) and obvtown (property of the slot).
And then I stated that I wouldn't be at all surprised with myself if I managed to call the scumteam D1; I've done it before and I'll do it again.
I simply haven't analyzed enough to feel significant certainty here yet, but eh.
Basically the objection you raise is:
Always a mediocre argument (scum cannot all be on one half of the bagel is a common derp)
Not even relevant
Particularly weak applied to a monster such as myself
Please do. I was about to ask why we hadn't done so yet.
Also,
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Signed,
mafiascum at large
kpaca's entrance was pretty much the equivalent of a scumclaim; I'd start there. No one replaces into a game, puts out feelers over whether they'd be able to hammer someone, and then does it over flimsy provocation. Even Fate would just hammer someone outright and cackle maniacally for another few posts.
That leaves two in {Cyan, Thor, Goofball, Iso, Voxxicus, Cyouni}. I'm still going to strike Cyouni. I don't think Iso and Cyan are scum together. If neither of them are scum then that leaves two in {Thor, Goofball, Voxxicus}, and while it's a possibility I'm not so convinced in either Iso or Cyan (more so Iso) that it's solid.
If there's one scum in the bunch then it's a tough call between the guy who argues for its own sake, the foaming nutcase, and the flurker, and I don't feel prepared to make a call here.
So, largely for pinning it in the dead thread and banking that llamarble is being trollishly bad at being Town, I'll place my bet on {kpaca, Iso, Voxxicus}. Voxxicus has the highest probability of being wrong, but the other options aren't very good.
Did I say "pretty obvious"? I mean starkly, amazingly obvious.
Well someone sure is upset about being dead.
Do keep posting these brilliant insights. They'll lynch you for it sometime in December.
If you only knew what you were dealing with
12 hours twilight, you guys may post as usual until next scene.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Replacements >_>
Ah well, maybe we'll get a scumflip somehow.
I didn't even finish catching up though.
And I explained how such reasons as folks gave were full moron.
I wasn't going to stomp all over Thor's soul before I was even current though.
I wrote a long post in response to this, but I deleted it.
I'm just going to shake my head in consternation.
I love you for this.
Next 4 lynches are Thor, Iso, hammermoron, and Voxxicus in some order.
Agree?
I'm leaning town on Thor. I'm rambling about my reads right now though.
I'm bothered that the only real wagon today was on Vi. I hate that no one on that wagon thought for a second they could be wrong.
But as I said before if by some weird chance he flips scum, which is pretty unlikely given his post lynch behavior. But if the bizarre happens then kami and Thor are town and cyan is likely town.
But if he flips town, can't see how he won't, bets off on those three.
Thor is probably town anyway. I'm going to give that tentative read even though the things I've picked up, or think I have, for how to read him haven't shown up. But I still think he's town. In fact he's probably the only person I feel good about being town right now. I'm just going on gut here though, I hope one of those two things happen so I can feel out that read better.
I have a paranoid theory about kami. Virtual punches coming your way if I so much as hear a muttering of paranoid scum tell. I went back and read mini 1499 and gay mafia. I know that it's silly to meta her but I did it any way. Anyway, she started off pretty helpful and less trolly in that game as scum and my paranoid theory is that she's scum, and knowing that the mtgsers don't like the spamming troll style modified it to be more pleasing. But then there are just some really genuine moments that remind me of ladies night, so I'm kinda hrm there.
Trojan man is annoying. I liked DYH, so we'll see. It was a bad hammer and a lame setup.
Voxxicus - who?
I'm actually liking cyouni a little more.
Nacho is making me feel uneasy. I'm just not feeling him, as he just feels like he's going through the motions. And Thor was right about why if he had that serious strong read why wasn't he doing something about it? Don't get the isoing everyone else but Vi to show why Vi was town. He did a mini one for marble but not for Vi. He just doesn't feel right and unfortunately it looks like I'm not going to be sure about him until day three.
Also I have a sneakin suspicion the he's bussing cyan, who I don't like anymore. The lack of scumhunting and the continual being here and not saying anything is terrible.
Iso is frustrating because he's not aggressive at all and he doesn't seem to be figuring out the game.
As far as llamarble goes. I'll be kinda disappointed if he's town. And it's not the not being caught up but just I don't know. I guess he hasn't read the whole thing, but some of the reads he's given have just struck me from left field that I have a hard time seeing town him giving them. I hope he picks up on day two.
I think that's all I had to say, if I remember anything else I'll mention it.
Yeah it took the lynch for the towntells to start dropping. Sorry to say. It is what it is.
Anyhow DGB, how do you feel about the lynchchain.
Probably town
We'll see
Who?
frustrating
On the squad-slated-for-death.
Anyhow I feel like continuing to catch up.
Meh.
The whole
verbal razzle-dazzle #SWAG gonna rap now > clear communication of meaning
looked like deliberate obfuscation. Vierni might still be scum, but if she's town, in fancying up the language, she transformed some simple ideas into contradictions, weird priorities and illogical statements.
There may be one scum on this wagon regardless of Vi's alignment. One white-knight, and one lurkaderp staying out of it.
Why was there no vote in this post or the one it quoted?
Meh I could be happier with Nacho / Tammy but my involvement level could've been a lot higher too and they seem probably town.