Thor, you are taking part for whole again. Yes, I think your Vi behavior was bad, along with your me-behavior, along with your not looking town the way the rest of the population is.
Hey Thor, regardless whether :you: are scum, it should be pretty obvious by this point that I'm not.
Which means you should vote something else!
Like Iso or Cyouni.
Thor, you are taking part for whole again. Yes, I think your Vi behavior was bad, along with your me-behavior, along with your not looking town the way the rest of the population is.
My "me-behavior" ...oooookay.
And, the reason i don't look own is...oh, right, the Vi thing.
So, no, I think I pegged it correctly. i also pegged it *very* correctly considering how much you wanted to scream misrep about it when, at worst at this stage, you're claimign I'm ignoring...generic scumminess.
Which is barely a thing in a case to ignore as all - how dastardly misreppy of me to ignore the gut parts and focus on your example points. Really creepy evil and obviously a scum motivated action.
I think Iso is town.
I think Cyouni is a meh lurksack.
Are you still demanding a claim from the replace, or have you just mentally PoE-ed him away off a presumption of a comment and used that as your case on others?
You've picked out ONE part of the things I don't like about you, and you're saying it's okay because other people did it too (which is funny because the other scums ARE those other people). Not even that it wasn't a bad thing to be doing, just that others also did it. And then behaving as though I somehow do not have any right to read you as scum because of this wonderful defensive maneuver you have accomplished. You-scum is a holistic read and your approach to Vi and now me and your disingenuous reasons behind your reads are some concrete things I can point to to illustrate. Show me your efforts to resolve the game as a whole. Do you have anything more interesting to say about people other than "I think Iso is town" and "I want lots of people dead because they're lurky"
I categorically cannot fake the post-rate / intensity I demonstrated yesterday. I've done this in probably 10 or so town games and ZERO scumgames. If you want to continue voting me you simply aren't playing the odds. This level of obvtown doesn't come along very often. I DEFY you to find me a scum who has called themselves obvtown as frequently as I have in this game. To find a scum this certain they cannot be lynched. To find a scum everyone who's played with will stake the game on their being town. To find a scum who would take the "what you're peddling is dumb, but I'm done talking to you" angle w/respect to your D1 vs Vi. To find a scum who essentially skips the early (easy) part of the game and blasts onto the scene later. To find a scum who professes sufficient certainty of game-evaluation to proclaim it's time to "Endgame" the scumteam.
I am obvtown, and if you believe otherwise you are FLAT WRONG. I'm pretty sure Iso doesn't even vaguely regard me as scum and is voting me because I beat him at his own game of being cheeky and annoying.
I still expect Voxx's replacement to claim 'notable PR' or 'No'
No, llama, I'm voting you because I don't buy your garbage "GUYS LOOK HOW TOWN I AM GUYS LOOK HOW RIGHT I WAS" crap that you've been spewing ALL DAMN DAY, you haven't done anything at all to convince me you're town, and you're one of the people I don't have a town read on.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mod: Request an additional 24 hour deadline extension (corresponding to Thankgiving last week).
Immediate thoughts from initial read: This game is 99% solved, with the main uncertainty coming from two (maaayyybbeee three) slots which I'm less confident about than the others.
- Cyan is almost certainly town; he's had trouble faking this level of tunneling in recent scumgames (see: Survival Horror and Redux Invitational).
- Nacho is uncounterclaimed investigative role with a flipped Mafia Rolecop. He's town.
- I did the research on Llamarble (Mini 1504, YOLOville, and one other game... man, now I'm reminded how much I miss the ISO function). He's not lying about having a distinct difference in tone between his scum and town games, and is very likely town.
- Tammy is likely town, especially given D1 interactions. Not as confident as the above three, I'm having real trouble finding Tammy scum games (Tammy hydras ALL THE TIME and half of the mods don't announce who's in the hydra, it's annoying) and given that and what I've read of Tammytown (Mafia of the Raptured, YOLOville, Mafia 160B, some more recent game I'm forgetting) I can't completely rule out Tammy having an inverted meta. But I think that doesn't apply and that Tammy is town.
- Iso is likely town. He's not quite as energetic and driven as I'm used to from town!Iso (see: Majora's Mask and Amistarian 3), but he's a lot less flippant and more focused than any scum!Iso I've seen.
- DGB is never, ever going above likely town on my townlists ever again short of mechanical confirmation (it's been over two years since Mafia Invictus and I STILL haven't forgotten that game), but this looks more like what I remember of town DGB than scum DGB - again, less flippant, and more willing to attack too (DGB didn't really *attack* in Invictus, she just sat on the sidelines while I falsecleared her for bad meta reasons).
By PoE, that leaves Cyouni and Thor as the scumteam barring a falsecleared town. More confident on Cyouni - Cyouni's new style is hard to read, but this looks more like the Redux Mirror version than the Cross-Town 1 version (less focused, gut says he doesn't actually care about the answers to his questions). That also means that we should have enough mislynches to PoE lynch me if necessary.
I'd vote Cyouni, but with the impending -1 lynch threshold that risks him getting deadline lynched tomorrow.
HoS: Cyouni (pseudovote with willingness to hammer tomorrow if Cyouni doesn't claim)
I still expect Voxx's replacement to claim 'notable PR' or 'No'
No, I don't think so.
Let's do this instead: I am either a protective role or vanilla town (i.e: I'm not counterclaiming Nacho, I'm not the Vig, and I'm not some miscellaneous town power role). Let the scum WIFOM it out toNight, okay?
"Doc or VT" is a lot less helpful than "Doc or Vig" would have been, if you're actually a doctor. And if you aren't a PR that was what I wanted to know in the first place because your predecessor showed good potential to be scum.
And then talk of getting PoEd...
beh
Cyouni can claim I spose.
Please do so quickly; time is fleeting.
You've picked out ONE part of the things I don't like about you, and you're saying it's okay because other people did it too
I picked out the...MAIN thing you have an issue about me, and asked you why it's an issue for me and not others - and your answer is BoP and I called that out as bad too.
I still expect Voxx's replacement to claim 'notable PR' or 'No'
And he doesn't - why are you fine with that since the only stated reason you had for lacking a continued push on him was the presumption he was a PR. Why would you want Cyouni to claim instead?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I gave backing off of Vi as an example of ONE THING you could have done which would've looked town. Everybody who was on the wagon received plenty of suckpoints; it turns out as I've been saying since yesterday all three scum WERE on the wagon. DGB / Cyan were also on the Vi Failwagon, but have not participated in your current fool's errand and DGB has done other nice things while Cyan has a 50% inno. Cyouni and Iso don't have a burden of proficiency to meet (sorry). Voxxicus simply hasn't done enough for there to be a pattern of suck in the body of work.
Honestly, I'm pretty fine with POE, given it's at a relatively safe state right now and I'm not sure where my focus should be right now. Plus I'm Vanilla anyways, so w/e.
Like if both llamarble and Nacho are town then I don't know where to go from here.
He went from me to Voxx - I think that's simply because he recognizes Voxx as the next easiest lynch with Nacho off the table.
I also think he's buying into Nacho town too easily.
I recall llamarble had Nacho as town before the claim. How does this make sense?
Cyouni, did you notice where I refuted cyan several times after the fact? I didn't feel like responding at that moment because his accusation was bad and I didn't feel like responding. Doesn't matter whether I thought he was scum or town; didn't feel like responding. Why am I more likely to respond to him if I think he's scum? Why does it matter that I ignored a question once when I answered it down the road? What do you think of cyan completely ignoring the entirety of my previous case against him?
What, you mean how you went "but everyone else had no direction too" followed by "I had direction, but no one else did"?
And why the hell wouldn't you respond to someone you think is scum making a bad case on you? If you really think they're scum, it should be free rein to prove that.
I did respond to his case on me. Why does it matter if I didn't respond to Cyan's case against me, one time? Hint: It absolutely does not matter. At all. As scum and as town, occasionally I give non-answers to people's arguments because those arguments don't make me happy. I don't see why this would bother anyone so much, or even at all.
He also spent a huge # of posts explaining why I should be town, and then voted me out of nowhere, for basically nothing. This doesn't strike me as something a person would do as town. Vote Nacho
Cause that seems like a perfectly valid response to me.
I presented a case against him. The only response that I ever got for it was "you called me town before + it's basically nothing". That's not a valid response, Cyouni.
This was what you said regarding that:
"I don't like Cyan clearing Iso on a Vi townflip that much in retrospect."
Great and good are two words that mean positive things. I think he's a great candidate for scum, but his inactivity means that he's a poor candidate to push. It doesn't mean that I have wonderful reasons for voting him (or else probably would be voting him). I just think that he's a solid candidate for scum.
Then why the hell wouldn't you push him?
"I think he's a solid candidate for scum. No, of course I'm not going to do anything about it, because I can't get him to respond to me."
Sorry, what am I doing now? Is it:
A) Pushing Voxx
or
B) Not pushing Voxx
Now =/= then.
Then you didn't.
Now you are.
They're separate things.
"Vi wasn't defending Cyan" is self explanatory, yes. It doesn't make sense when it is paired up with an earliern comment that suggested Vi WAS defending Cyan. So I pointed out his previous comment. Where did I use this in a push? What did I misconstrue?
You pushed on Iso while claiming that Vi was defending Cyan - see the original post this was all about.
See "It's like you didn't read Day 1 and are trying to misconstrue stuff", etc.
I did claim that Vi was defending Cyan because he was (see: the post where he called Cyan town). I asked Iso what he thought of this. That wasn't a push on Iso.
Congrats! You have a post that calls Cyan town...wait, that's not defending him.
If every post that calls someone town is defending them, then you need better definitions. Especially given there wasn't ad hom, because there wasn't a person making an argument.
It's pretty hard to defend against a nonexistent attack.
I wasn't interested in your points when you made them; I didn't bring them up when referring to your later Vi push because you dropped them. I don't understand the big difference; your push on Vi was because he didn't explain his claimstalling awesomely enough. If you didn't care about claim stalling in the first place, you wouldn't care about his explanation for it.
Claimstalling by itself isn't the best action, yes.
However, that pales in comparison with the fact that her explanation was complete BS.
And it seems slightly odd for you to claim that all I said about Vi was regarding claimstalling, when you brought up how you understood my line of thought. You seem to be avoiding that.
I understood your line of thought, yes. But you dropped all line of thought (you ignored that specific point), and in the end, your push on Vi was based on his claimstalling/explanation of it.
Those are completely different things.
The two lines of thought are not compatible in any way.
You cannot both understand my line of logic that lead to that and think that all I said about Vi was regarding claimstalling.
The second cannot be true if the first is, and vice versa.
If all I said about Vi had to do with claimstalling, then I COULD NOT have had a stated line of logic that lead to me voting Vi. Similarly, if I had a line of logic (pre-claimstall) that lead to me voting Vi, then I COULD NOT have only said stuff regarding Vi claimstalling.
I was high hanging fruit because I was active, I posted a ton of good ****, there are three people here who can read me well from our side (Thor probably can too, but he's always scum when we play together or I'm trying to mislynch him soo). I was high hanging fruit because generally I don't have a problem connecting with a lot of players on this player list, I am hard to lynch under pressure because I become town in one way or another, I am high hanging fruit because not a lot of people really cared to lynch me yesterday. The point was that I was an odd target for cyan to go after as scum. Do you disagree? Is mislynching me proving as easy as you hoped it would be? Do you understand what I'm talking about when I talk about opportunistic targets and not opportunistic targets, and what does my reasoning on me being a hard target have to do with anything?
A, ad hom.
B, last game says differently.
C, Cyan went at you last game, and you said absolutely nothing regarding it then.
A, nowhere did I attack anyone. I talked about who was easy to lynch and who was hard to lynch.
B, did I get lynched last game? Did I get vigged last game? What the hell does this even mean?
C, yes. because when I was attacking Cyan last game, attacking low/hi fruit was something that didn't really matter when I was in endgame with an extraordinarily strong townread and a cop innocent.
A) Ad hom refers to attacking the person instead of the argument. I'm pretty sure calling me scum out of nowhere (you know, given you said nothing regarding this before) is a perfect example of that.
B) Considering you had an all-town wagon form on you last game, that should say something.
C) He attacked you D1, and early on at that.
I DEFY you to find me a scum who has called themselves obvtown as frequently as I have in this game. To find a scum this certain they cannot be lynched. To find a scum everyone who's played with will stake the game on their being town. To find a scum who would take the "what you're peddling is dumb, but I'm done talking to you" angle w/respect to your D1 vs Vi. To find a scum who essentially skips the early (easy) part of the game and blasts onto the scene later. To find a scum who professes sufficient certainty of game-evaluation to proclaim it's time to "Endgame" the scumteam.
You know none of that is terribly uncommon, right?
Also laughing at how apparently no one but you can say "no one can push on me".
No, llama, I'm voting you because I don't buy your garbage "GUYS LOOK HOW TOWN I AM GUYS LOOK HOW RIGHT I WAS" crap that you've been spewing ALL DAMN DAY, you haven't done anything at all to convince me you're town, and you're one of the people I don't have a town read on.
Show me someone who has spewed similar 'garbage' and flipped scum.
You're voting me because I'm engaging in a behavior that makes me MASSIVELY more likely to be town than scum.
It's not even that uncommon for people to post stuff like you just did. Players as good as Spyrex have made that complaint (and flipped town). But seriously, my scumgame could NEVER prompt that response from someone. I challenge you to show me someone's who could.
#1117 makes me want to lynch Thor first.
Unfortunately my vote is insufficient to do that.
I'm not sure why nobody else is voting Thor considering Tammy professes general issues with reading him and so far all he's done is try to lynch town and he works splendidly with DYH.
Of all people, I'd expect Iso to want revenge on big bad evil Thor, not to want to lose to him twice in a row, and to notice the twist-level matching last game's. So that's interesting, but fortunately Iso isn't very town at all either.
Of all people, I'd expect Iso to want revenge on big bad evil Thor, not to want to lose to him twice in a row, and to notice the twist-level matching last game's. So that's interesting, but fortunately Iso isn't very town at all either.
Town fight people who are trying to lynch them by "I'm town and here's why and here's who I think as scum."'
Scum fight people who are trying to lynch them by trying to pin their logic into weak forms and attack it and attack them on grounds of trying to win :logicwarz:
There's obviously some overlap, but Thor is clearly focusing on the second approach.
Nothing is going to "bite me in the backside." There are more people on my team than yours.
You know none of that is terribly uncommon, right?
This is wrong.
I am going to attribute you holding this incorrect opinion to you being kind of a noob >_<.
You are welcome to show me examples to demonstrate the commonness of scum exhibiting this behavior though. Or you can vote Thor, he can flip scum, and we can agree to disagree.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Honestly, I'm pretty fine with POE, given it's at a relatively safe state right now and I'm not sure where my focus should be right now. Plus I'm Vanilla anyways, so w/e.
Like if both llamarble and Nacho are town then I don't know where to go from here.
He went from me to Voxx - I think that's simply because he recognizes Voxx as the next easiest lynch with Nacho off the table.
I also think he's buying into Nacho town too easily.
I recall llamarble had Nacho as town before the claim. How does this make sense?
Cyouni, did you notice where I refuted cyan several times after the fact? I didn't feel like responding at that moment because his accusation was bad and I didn't feel like responding. Doesn't matter whether I thought he was scum or town; didn't feel like responding. Why am I more likely to respond to him if I think he's scum? Why does it matter that I ignored a question once when I answered it down the road? What do you think of cyan completely ignoring the entirety of my previous case against him?
What, you mean how you went "but everyone else had no direction too" followed by "I had direction, but no one else did"?
And why the hell wouldn't you respond to someone you think is scum making a bad case on you? If you really think they're scum, it should be free rein to prove that.
I did respond to his case on me. Why does it matter if I didn't respond to Cyan's case against me, one time? Hint: It absolutely does not matter. At all. As scum and as town, occasionally I give non-answers to people's arguments because those arguments don't make me happy. I don't see why this would bother anyone so much, or even at all.
He also spent a huge # of posts explaining why I should be town, and then voted me out of nowhere, for basically nothing. This doesn't strike me as something a person would do as town. Vote Nacho
Cause that seems like a perfectly valid response to me.
I presented a case against him. The only response that I ever got for it was "you called me town before + it's basically nothing". That's not a valid response, Cyouni.
This was what you said regarding that:
"I don't like Cyan clearing Iso on a Vi townflip that much in retrospect."
Great and good are two words that mean positive things. I think he's a great candidate for scum, but his inactivity means that he's a poor candidate to push. It doesn't mean that I have wonderful reasons for voting him (or else probably would be voting him). I just think that he's a solid candidate for scum.
Then why the hell wouldn't you push him?
"I think he's a solid candidate for scum. No, of course I'm not going to do anything about it, because I can't get him to respond to me."
Sorry, what am I doing now? Is it:
A) Pushing Voxx
or
B) Not pushing Voxx
Now =/= then.
Then you didn't.
Now you are.
They're separate things.
"Vi wasn't defending Cyan" is self explanatory, yes. It doesn't make sense when it is paired up with an earliern comment that suggested Vi WAS defending Cyan. So I pointed out his previous comment. Where did I use this in a push? What did I misconstrue?
You pushed on Iso while claiming that Vi was defending Cyan - see the original post this was all about.
See "It's like you didn't read Day 1 and are trying to misconstrue stuff", etc.
I did claim that Vi was defending Cyan because he was (see: the post where he called Cyan town). I asked Iso what he thought of this. That wasn't a push on Iso.
Congrats! You have a post that calls Cyan town...wait, that's not defending him.
If every post that calls someone town is defending them, then you need better definitions. Especially given there wasn't ad hom, because there wasn't a person making an argument.
It's pretty hard to defend against a nonexistent attack.
I wasn't interested in your points when you made them; I didn't bring them up when referring to your later Vi push because you dropped them. I don't understand the big difference; your push on Vi was because he didn't explain his claimstalling awesomely enough. If you didn't care about claim stalling in the first place, you wouldn't care about his explanation for it.
Claimstalling by itself isn't the best action, yes.
However, that pales in comparison with the fact that her explanation was complete BS.
And it seems slightly odd for you to claim that all I said about Vi was regarding claimstalling, when you brought up how you understood my line of thought. You seem to be avoiding that.
I understood your line of thought, yes. But you dropped all line of thought (you ignored that specific point), and in the end, your push on Vi was based on his claimstalling/explanation of it.
Those are completely different things.
The two lines of thought are not compatible in any way.
You cannot both understand my line of logic that lead to that and think that all I said about Vi was regarding claimstalling.
The second cannot be true if the first is, and vice versa.
If all I said about Vi had to do with claimstalling, then I COULD NOT have had a stated line of logic that lead to me voting Vi. Similarly, if I had a line of logic (pre-claimstall) that lead to me voting Vi, then I COULD NOT have only said stuff regarding Vi claimstalling.
I was high hanging fruit because I was active, I posted a ton of good ****, there are three people here who can read me well from our side (Thor probably can too, but he's always scum when we play together or I'm trying to mislynch him soo). I was high hanging fruit because generally I don't have a problem connecting with a lot of players on this player list, I am hard to lynch under pressure because I become town in one way or another, I am high hanging fruit because not a lot of people really cared to lynch me yesterday. The point was that I was an odd target for cyan to go after as scum. Do you disagree? Is mislynching me proving as easy as you hoped it would be? Do you understand what I'm talking about when I talk about opportunistic targets and not opportunistic targets, and what does my reasoning on me being a hard target have to do with anything?
A, ad hom.
B, last game says differently.
C, Cyan went at you last game, and you said absolutely nothing regarding it then.
A, nowhere did I attack anyone. I talked about who was easy to lynch and who was hard to lynch.
B, did I get lynched last game? Did I get vigged last game? What the hell does this even mean?
C, yes. because when I was attacking Cyan last game, attacking low/hi fruit was something that didn't really matter when I was in endgame with an extraordinarily strong townread and a cop innocent.
A) Ad hom refers to attacking the person instead of the argument. I'm pretty sure calling me scum out of nowhere (you know, given you said nothing regarding this before) is a perfect example of that.
B) Considering you had an all-town wagon form on you last game, that should say something.
C) He attacked you D1, and early on at that.
I DEFY you to find me a scum who has called themselves obvtown as frequently as I have in this game. To find a scum this certain they cannot be lynched. To find a scum everyone who's played with will stake the game on their being town. To find a scum who would take the "what you're peddling is dumb, but I'm done talking to you" angle w/respect to your D1 vs Vi. To find a scum who essentially skips the early (easy) part of the game and blasts onto the scene later. To find a scum who professes sufficient certainty of game-evaluation to proclaim it's time to "Endgame" the scumteam.
You know none of that is terribly uncommon, right?
Also laughing at how apparently no one but you can say "no one can push on me".
Actually this post isn't a townie post. It's a resigned scum post.
Mafiaswoon! Here is an abominable smiley greeting:
I hear that if you work at it you might convince me to come out of MS exile (there's an MafiaScum Redux Mafia in my notes that would only work on 'Scum... but I've apparently contracted Shyamalan syndrome as a mod, so that might not be the greatest idea).
(Also +5 paranoia points, possible buddying. Probably not given rest of play, though.)
---
llamarble: Claiming this way has a very specific purpose. That purpose has less to do with you and more to do with WIFOMing out the scum.
Nacho: If we lynch scum toDay (and ESPECIALLY if we lynch scum power role), track me tonight - I'll claim my action (if any) toMorrow, then you confirm. If we hit town, then it's a judgment call.
You've picked out ONE part of the things I don't like about you, and you're saying it's okay because other people did it too
I picked out the...MAIN thing you have an issue about me, and asked you why it's an issue for me and not others - and your answer is BoP and I called that out as bad too.
I still expect Voxx's replacement to claim 'notable PR' or 'No'
And he doesn't - why are you fine with that since the only stated reason you had for lacking a continued push on him was the presumption he was a PR. Why would you want Cyouni to claim instead?
You know what? Cyouni can wait. His last post can come from town.
This post? Can't. Especially the last part - that "why are you fine with that" is classic scum mudslinging (trying to paint scum motivation on town actions - note that Thor portrays llamarble as "fine" with my refusal to claim whether or not I'm power when he clearly has reservations), and the tone is fake as hell.
Thor KNOWS that llamarble is town, and he's trying to discredit him and get him lynched despite that. I wonder why?
Town fight people who are trying to lynch them by "I'm town and here's why and here's who I think as scum."'
Scum fight people who are trying to lynch them by trying to pin their logic into weak forms and attack it and attack them on grounds of trying to win :logicwarz:
There's obviously some overlap, but Thor is clearly focusing on the second approach.
Nothing is going to "bite me in the backside." There are more people on my team than yours.
Town are paranoid.
Scum make absolute statements and parade them around as given facts.
Yes, I am attacking the case on me. The case sucks - for someone who was so enamored by themselves in stating that the Vi case was weak I'm amazed that you're so closed to thoughts about the Thor case.
Also, good generic town rah-rah nothing comment.
How about this one 'if I am lynched you'll be lynched next'
or 'My role PM is able to prove that I am town'
Don't those make my case and position so much stronger simply by being said?
What games did you play with me/read that gave you the idea in your head that town me should have spotted the Vi lynch as bad. You're using BoP on me, I now want you to show me why you think i am as good as you are saying I must be - if it's part of your case on me this should be supportable in some manner I would think.
I will note that your BoP game of me has me attacking cases on me for being bad and silly and lacking logic and I don't bother explaining why I'm town regardless, just that the case is bad.
It's also good to know that one game two years ago equates to BoP today.
Meh.
Not really buying your stated understanding of my actual play style nor skill here Llama, what's up? When does this case start making sense?
Also - I feel like you dodged that question I asked about Tarl replacing Voxx and the claim situation. Did you answer that and I missed it, because if not I'd still like it answered.
I disagree that you wouldn't do that Tammy, but I think you're more likely to say you wouldn't as town
Not that game. Not when it's like three scum games ago. Not the one that I put so much effort into trying to look like my town game and is really nothing like my typical scum game. If I were somehow scum here playing a good town-looking game, I'd never offer that up for comparison.
I still expect Voxx's replacement to claim 'notable PR' or 'No'
And he doesn't - why are you fine with that since the only stated reason you had for lacking a continued push on him was the presumption he was a PR. Why would you want Cyouni to claim instead?
Well for one thing, I told him I didn't like this.
For another thing, he has replaced in pretty strong and I'm not currently reading the slot as scum.
It's stupid that you would even ask about or take interest in this; as Tar pointed out it's OBVIOUS that I disliked the claim decision and decided not to lynch that slot today anyway.
Even more boring is "on what grounds do you think I'm decent at town." I've played with you before. You played well. You also have played well at scum, which as it turns out is correlated with playing well as town. I can assure you if you flip town this game I'll lower my opinion some, but your basic skills don't totally suck.
If your "Thor is good" example came from within the last six months I might buy it more.
But I think it's a seriously legit question that if you are using BoP on me you *should* be able to justify why I am as good as you say I am.
What else is there to your case if I'm not as good as you are saying I am?
Ah, and also, he 'replaced in strong' I see how solid your PoE was on Voxx now.
If I quit because you annoy me and someone replaced in strong would that clear my slot too?
Your reads are mush and you're pretending like they aren't just to push my case.
I am underwhelmed.
I'm supposed to expect you to have gotten worse since last time I played with you as town?
"You only saw me play well a few years ago and therefore I don't buy that you think I'm good now"
LOL.
My reads are mush?
I am town.
Nacho is town.
Tammy is very likely town.
DGB is very likely town.
Cyan is probably town, largely thanks to roleclear but it's otherwise believeable.
Tar can make two posts and it matters because TAR ALREADY HAS MORE CONTENT THAN VOXX DID. Voxx could have flipped scum easily enough, but also had some potential to flip town. Tar looks pretty solid so far. Also they're a maybedoctor. This slot isn't a good lynch today.
Cyouni is a bag of limpness, and could be scum, but "IDGAF if I'm lynched; I'm vanilla and we'll be fine" is not the standard scumapproach when they see themselves on the way to becoming the default lynch.
Iso is scum. SCUMSCUMSCUM
You are scum. SCUMSCUMSCUM
You and Iso ARE the NEXT 2 lynches barring a miracle.
Although it's hilarious you find it :scummy: that I would reevaluate a read on somebody so quickly after a new face appeared. Because that makes sense.
You on the other hand are stolidly going 'llama is still scum because I'm trying really really hard to secure lots of mislynches and him calling me bad for that is use of the fallacious (except it isn't) burden of proficiency argument that shouldn't apply because I am only widely regarded as one of the best players on the site as one alignment and am merely good at the other' despite me opening a CAN OF WHOOP A** on this thread.
You know why we approach reevaluation so differently?
Because I want to win this game for town whereas your sole goal for today is "secure a llama lynch instead of a thor lynch"
Tammy, a pact:
Next 4 lynches are Thor, Iso, hammermoron, and Voxxicus in some order.
Agree?
Sometimes Twilight brings Clarity.
I even say right after that that all 3 scum were on the wagon.
DGB also towned quite a bit during twilight. I think Twilight is extremely pro town.
That's right.
I freaking caught up during twilight. Sometimes I forget just how obvtown I can be.
DGB-DYH yesterday is interesting.
DYH votes DGB for an asstastic reason.
DGB calls him scum with substantial fervor and yells at him but continues voting Vi.
She makes the 'request extension to lynch DYH' remark which I found rather suspicious as it looked like a marker so she could later say "hey it's just like my last towngame where I wanted extension to lynch so and so."
DGB ENTIRELY forgets her scumread on DYH when he is replaced and professes her <3s for the replacement.
I think that's the most interesting DYH interaction to be had, though Iso-DYH is also worthwhile.
This was true too.
DGB still could, possibly, conceivably be scum.
Iso and Thor first though.
I could MAYBE lynch Iso before Thor, if that is what the masses want.
Cyouni is a bag of limpness, and could be scum, but "IDGAF if I'm lynched; I'm vanilla and we'll be fine" is not the standard scumapproach when they see themselves on the way to becoming the default lynch
@DGB - you know how little I am sold by your cases when presented like that.
Deadline extended until tomorrow!
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Thor, you are taking part for whole again. Yes, I think your Vi behavior was bad, along with your me-behavior, along with your not looking town the way the rest of the population is.
Hey Thor, regardless whether :you: are scum, it should be pretty obvious by this point that I'm not.
Which means you should vote something else!
Like Iso or Cyouni.
My "me-behavior" ...oooookay.
And, the reason i don't look own is...oh, right, the Vi thing.
So, no, I think I pegged it correctly. i also pegged it *very* correctly considering how much you wanted to scream misrep about it when, at worst at this stage, you're claimign I'm ignoring...generic scumminess.
Which is barely a thing in a case to ignore as all - how dastardly misreppy of me to ignore the gut parts and focus on your example points. Really creepy evil and obviously a scum motivated action.
Whut?
Why?
I think Iso is town.
I think Cyouni is a meh lurksack.
Are you still demanding a claim from the replace, or have you just mentally PoE-ed him away off a presumption of a comment and used that as your case on others?
I still think you look like scum.
I categorically cannot fake the post-rate / intensity I demonstrated yesterday. I've done this in probably 10 or so town games and ZERO scumgames. If you want to continue voting me you simply aren't playing the odds. This level of obvtown doesn't come along very often. I DEFY you to find me a scum who has called themselves obvtown as frequently as I have in this game. To find a scum this certain they cannot be lynched. To find a scum everyone who's played with will stake the game on their being town. To find a scum who would take the "what you're peddling is dumb, but I'm done talking to you" angle w/respect to your D1 vs Vi. To find a scum who essentially skips the early (easy) part of the game and blasts onto the scene later. To find a scum who professes sufficient certainty of game-evaluation to proclaim it's time to "Endgame" the scumteam.
I am obvtown, and if you believe otherwise you are FLAT WRONG. I'm pretty sure Iso doesn't even vaguely regard me as scum and is voting me because I beat him at his own game of being cheeky and annoying.
I still expect Voxx's replacement to claim 'notable PR' or 'No'
No, llama, I'm voting you because I don't buy your garbage "GUYS LOOK HOW TOWN I AM GUYS LOOK HOW RIGHT I WAS" crap that you've been spewing ALL DAMN DAY, you haven't done anything at all to convince me you're town, and you're one of the people I don't have a town read on.
Nice try, though.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
First order of business:
Mod: Request an additional 24 hour deadline extension (corresponding to Thankgiving last week).
Immediate thoughts from initial read: This game is 99% solved, with the main uncertainty coming from two (maaayyybbeee three) slots which I'm less confident about than the others.
- Cyan is almost certainly town; he's had trouble faking this level of tunneling in recent scumgames (see: Survival Horror and Redux Invitational).
- Nacho is uncounterclaimed investigative role with a flipped Mafia Rolecop. He's town.
- I did the research on Llamarble (Mini 1504, YOLOville, and one other game... man, now I'm reminded how much I miss the ISO function). He's not lying about having a distinct difference in tone between his scum and town games, and is very likely town.
- Tammy is likely town, especially given D1 interactions. Not as confident as the above three, I'm having real trouble finding Tammy scum games (Tammy hydras ALL THE TIME and half of the mods don't announce who's in the hydra, it's annoying) and given that and what I've read of Tammytown (Mafia of the Raptured, YOLOville, Mafia 160B, some more recent game I'm forgetting) I can't completely rule out Tammy having an inverted meta. But I think that doesn't apply and that Tammy is town.
- Iso is likely town. He's not quite as energetic and driven as I'm used to from town!Iso (see: Majora's Mask and Amistarian 3), but he's a lot less flippant and more focused than any scum!Iso I've seen.
- DGB is never, ever going above likely town on my townlists ever again short of mechanical confirmation (it's been over two years since Mafia Invictus and I STILL haven't forgotten that game), but this looks more like what I remember of town DGB than scum DGB - again, less flippant, and more willing to attack too (DGB didn't really *attack* in Invictus, she just sat on the sidelines while I falsecleared her for bad meta reasons).
By PoE, that leaves Cyouni and Thor as the scumteam barring a falsecleared town. More confident on Cyouni - Cyouni's new style is hard to read, but this looks more like the Redux Mirror version than the Cross-Town 1 version (less focused, gut says he doesn't actually care about the answers to his questions). That also means that we should have enough mislynches to PoE lynch me if necessary.
I'd vote Cyouni, but with the impending -1 lynch threshold that risks him getting deadline lynched tomorrow.
HoS: Cyouni (pseudovote with willingness to hammer tomorrow if Cyouni doesn't claim)
No, I don't think so.
Let's do this instead: I am either a protective role or vanilla town (i.e: I'm not counterclaiming Nacho, I'm not the Vig, and I'm not some miscellaneous town power role). Let the scum WIFOM it out toNight, okay?
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
My most recent scum games:
Best scum game I've ever played on Mafiascum
Meh scum game I'm tsunami here. Technically a hydra but my hydra partner never posted once in that game so it's basically just a me alt.
One of my worst scum games (I've drawn scum a lot between mafiascum and my homesite. You can probably read the miserableness dripping in my posts.)
More later.
Mafiaswoon! Here is an abominable smiley greeting:
And then talk of getting PoEd...
beh
Cyouni can claim I spose.
Please do so quickly; time is fleeting.
I picked out the...MAIN thing you have an issue about me, and asked you why it's an issue for me and not others - and your answer is BoP and I called that out as bad too.
Why not?
And he doesn't - why are you fine with that since the only stated reason you had for lacking a continued push on him was the presumption he was a PR. Why would you want Cyouni to claim instead?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Like if both llamarble and Nacho are town then I don't know where to go from here.
I recall llamarble had Nacho as town before the claim. How does this make sense?
This was what you said regarding that:
"I don't like Cyan clearing Iso on a Vi townflip that much in retrospect."
And that's it. That's basically nothing.
Now =/= then.
Then you didn't.
Now you are.
They're separate things.
Congrats! You have a post that calls Cyan town...wait, that's not defending him.
If every post that calls someone town is defending them, then you need better definitions. Especially given there wasn't ad hom, because there wasn't a person making an argument.
It's pretty hard to defend against a nonexistent attack.
Those are completely different things.
The two lines of thought are not compatible in any way.
You cannot both understand my line of logic that lead to that and think that all I said about Vi was regarding claimstalling.
The second cannot be true if the first is, and vice versa.
If all I said about Vi had to do with claimstalling, then I COULD NOT have had a stated line of logic that lead to me voting Vi. Similarly, if I had a line of logic (pre-claimstall) that lead to me voting Vi, then I COULD NOT have only said stuff regarding Vi claimstalling.
It's simple logic.
A) Ad hom refers to attacking the person instead of the argument. I'm pretty sure calling me scum out of nowhere (you know, given you said nothing regarding this before) is a perfect example of that.
B) Considering you had an all-town wagon form on you last game, that should say something.
C) He attacked you D1, and early on at that.
You know none of that is terribly uncommon, right?
Also laughing at how apparently no one but you can say "no one can push on me".
Show me someone who has spewed similar 'garbage' and flipped scum.
You're voting me because I'm engaging in a behavior that makes me MASSIVELY more likely to be town than scum.
It's not even that uncommon for people to post stuff like you just did. Players as good as Spyrex have made that complaint (and flipped town). But seriously, my scumgame could NEVER prompt that response from someone. I challenge you to show me someone's who could.
Unfortunately my vote is insufficient to do that.
I'm not sure why nobody else is voting Thor considering Tammy professes general issues with reading him and so far all he's done is try to lynch town and he works splendidly with DYH.
Of all people, I'd expect Iso to want revenge on big bad evil Thor, not to want to lose to him twice in a row, and to notice the twist-level matching last game's. So that's interesting, but fortunately Iso isn't very town at all either.
I agree with this.
Man, how do I live with myself for not addressing all the points of this case.
You're spewing dreck Llama, and it's going to bite you in the backside.
Scum fight people who are trying to lynch them by trying to pin their logic into weak forms and attack it and attack them on grounds of trying to win :logicwarz:
There's obviously some overlap, but Thor is clearly focusing on the second approach.
Nothing is going to "bite me in the backside." There are more people on my team than yours.
This is wrong.
I am going to attribute you holding this incorrect opinion to you being kind of a noob >_<.
You are welcome to show me examples to demonstrate the commonness of scum exhibiting this behavior though. Or you can vote Thor, he can flip scum, and we can agree to disagree.
wondrous
SIXTEENTH VOTE COUNT!
llamarble (3) - Cyouni, Thor665, Iso
Cyouni (2) - Tammy, Nachomomma8
Thor665 (2) - llamarble, Kami of Lunacy
Not Voting (2) - Taredas, Cyan
With 9 still alive, it takes 5 to lynch!
[Day Two "deadline" is December 5th.]
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Actually this post isn't a townie post. It's a resigned scum post.
I hear the role isn't *always* scum. (Also yes.)
Urk, my beautiful PoE - that's more similar to your play this game than most of your town games I've found.
Meh, you can wait one way or another.
I hear that if you work at it you might convince me to come out of MS exile (there's an MafiaScum Redux Mafia in my notes that would only work on 'Scum... but I've apparently contracted Shyamalan syndrome as a mod, so that might not be the greatest idea).
(Also +5 paranoia points, possible buddying. Probably not given rest of play, though.)
---
llamarble: Claiming this way has a very specific purpose. That purpose has less to do with you and more to do with WIFOMing out the scum.
Nacho: If we lynch scum toDay (and ESPECIALLY if we lynch scum power role), track me tonight - I'll claim my action (if any) toMorrow, then you confirm. If we hit town, then it's a judgment call.
---
Paranoia about Iso: rising.
(REALLY need to take a closer look at him soon, for reasons I will not explain at this time.)
---
You know what? Cyouni can wait. His last post can come from town.
This post? Can't. Especially the last part - that "why are you fine with that" is classic scum mudslinging (trying to paint scum motivation on town actions - note that Thor portrays llamarble as "fine" with my refusal to claim whether or not I'm power when he clearly has reservations), and the tone is fake as hell.
Thor KNOWS that llamarble is town, and he's trying to discredit him and get him lynched despite that. I wonder why?
And just look at this completely dismissive ad hominem defense.
The kind that almost always comes from one alignment. Here's a hint: It's not town.
Let's do this.
Unvote, Vote: Thor669
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Town are paranoid.
Scum make absolute statements and parade them around as given facts.
Yes, I am attacking the case on me. The case sucks - for someone who was so enamored by themselves in stating that the Vi case was weak I'm amazed that you're so closed to thoughts about the Thor case.
Also, good generic town rah-rah nothing comment.
How about this one 'if I am lynched you'll be lynched next'
or 'My role PM is able to prove that I am town'
Don't those make my case and position so much stronger simply by being said?
What games did you play with me/read that gave you the idea in your head that town me should have spotted the Vi lynch as bad. You're using BoP on me, I now want you to show me why you think i am as good as you are saying I must be - if it's part of your case on me this should be supportable in some manner I would think.
I've won and been nominated for IC work, Best Scum, Most Manipulative, and whatever the funny body of work one is.
I am pretty sure I've never been up for any Paragon of Scumhunting or Best Town noms, so...?
I'm pretty obviously town, but thanks for the assertion. Maybe you should read some more town games.
Also, I'm not a ****ing ******. If I was actually scum here, I wouldn't offer you what I consider my best scum game as a meta analysis.
I honestly don't even remember it properly, but I am suspecting you mean this game;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=19359&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select[]=12326&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go
I will note that your BoP game of me has me attacking cases on me for being bad and silly and lacking logic and I don't bother explaining why I'm town regardless, just that the case is bad.
It's also good to know that one game two years ago equates to BoP today.
Meh.
Not really buying your stated understanding of my actual play style nor skill here Llama, what's up? When does this case start making sense?
Also - I feel like you dodged that question I asked about Tarl replacing Voxx and the claim situation. Did you answer that and I missed it, because if not I'd still like it answered.
Or was that one the sharks. I forget.
Not that game. Not when it's like three scum games ago. Not the one that I put so much effort into trying to look like my town game and is really nothing like my typical scum game. If I were somehow scum here playing a good town-looking game, I'd never offer that up for comparison.
Regardless, it still looks nothing to here.
Yeah, you haven't addressed this yet.
For another thing, he has replaced in pretty strong and I'm not currently reading the slot as scum.
It's stupid that you would even ask about or take interest in this; as Tar pointed out it's OBVIOUS that I disliked the claim decision and decided not to lynch that slot today anyway.
Even more boring is "on what grounds do you think I'm decent at town." I've played with you before. You played well. You also have played well at scum, which as it turns out is correlated with playing well as town. I can assure you if you flip town this game I'll lower my opinion some, but your basic skills don't totally suck.
But I think it's a seriously legit question that if you are using BoP on me you *should* be able to justify why I am as good as you say I am.
What else is there to your case if I'm not as good as you are saying I am?
Ah, and also, he 'replaced in strong' I see how solid your PoE was on Voxx now.
If I quit because you annoy me and someone replaced in strong would that clear my slot too?
Your reads are mush and you're pretending like they aren't just to push my case.
I am underwhelmed.
"You only saw me play well a few years ago and therefore I don't buy that you think I'm good now"
LOL.
My reads are mush?
I am town.
Nacho is town.
Tammy is very likely town.
DGB is very likely town.
Cyan is probably town, largely thanks to roleclear but it's otherwise believeable.
Tar can make two posts and it matters because TAR ALREADY HAS MORE CONTENT THAN VOXX DID. Voxx could have flipped scum easily enough, but also had some potential to flip town. Tar looks pretty solid so far. Also they're a maybedoctor. This slot isn't a good lynch today.
Cyouni is a bag of limpness, and could be scum, but "IDGAF if I'm lynched; I'm vanilla and we'll be fine" is not the standard scumapproach when they see themselves on the way to becoming the default lynch.
Iso is scum. SCUMSCUMSCUM
You are scum. SCUMSCUMSCUM
You and Iso ARE the NEXT 2 lynches barring a miracle.
I have 5 friends you have 1.5. Time to burn.
You on the other hand are stolidly going 'llama is still scum because I'm trying really really hard to secure lots of mislynches and him calling me bad for that is use of the fallacious (except it isn't) burden of proficiency argument that shouldn't apply because I am only widely regarded as one of the best players on the site as one alignment and am merely good at the other' despite me opening a CAN OF WHOOP A** on this thread.
Because I want to win this game for town whereas your sole goal for today is "secure a llama lynch instead of a thor lynch"
I guess I'm having a bonding moment with a corpse?
Sometimes Twilight brings Clarity.
I even say right after that that all 3 scum were on the wagon.
DGB also towned quite a bit during twilight. I think Twilight is extremely pro town.
That's right.
I freaking caught up during twilight. Sometimes I forget just how obvtown I can be.
This was true too.
DGB still could, possibly, conceivably be scum.
Iso and Thor first though.
I could MAYBE lynch Iso before Thor, if that is what the masses want.
Yes, Iso definitely needs to Get Dunked.
I disagree with that.
What you mean, yo???