Wow look at that huge overreaction by Vierni. If I were scum, clearly I would just have gone along with Nacho today, given that he is plainly the easier of the two of you to wagon.
Also, neither the words "vanilla" nor "townie" appear in a search of your posts but that's neither here nor there.
A statement like this is definitely not 'neither here nor there', and when you put it that way, it looks like you're just trying to discredit me without having to actually take a hard line.
Also, neither the words "vanilla" nor "townie" appear in a search of your posts but that's neither here nor there.
A statement like this is definitely not 'neither here nor there', and when you put it that way, it looks like you're just trying to discredit me without having to actually take a hard line.
No, I'm trying to figure out whether it's plausible for you to not see that Iso was misreading Llamarble's "Town Poisoner Detective" claim (vice attacking him for rolefishing) based on whether your flavor name had a title. In this case it does! You get a coveted fifteenth point levied in favor of your lynch.
That's all I wanted to know. You can go back to being unproductive while I wait for DYH to come back so I can argue the long post with him. He might look at it long enough that I mention "Reasons Nacho should be lynched" at some point.
Without saying how I feel about it one way or another yet, I'm curious, Cyan: what's scummy about Nacho's last post you quoted?
Can we save this until tomorrow? I would rather it be fresh in everyone's mind for the last day of the game(assuming that Thor really is scum). I just wanted to make a note of it now because it bugged me enough.
It's tomorrow. I would like an answer to this, please.
Maybe I'm just dense - or losing translation amongst all the pronouns, but can you clarify this point?
Quote from Vierni »
Here's why we shouldn't lynch Nacho.
1) While neither Nacho nor Cyan interacted at all with Thor and Fate and vice versa, Nacho's stances were a lot more risky to take as scum - notably here
Quote from Nacho 188 »
i really really don't want to do it, but vi/llamarble/thor are all town and it looks like fate rolled scum again :/
Vote: Aggressive Fate
please make me regret this vote as soon as I make it
He's basically placed a giant shubbery on this post/vote, though. He calls one buddy town, "PoEs" the other on day 1.
Quote from Vierni »
3) Calling me solid Town at what's basically LyLo is a gigantic (and probably highly unfavorable) risk to take as scum.
I've got some theories on this, but I'm going to withhold them until some of my other questions are resolved.
I'll also cover Vi's review of Cyan once he's responded to the questions directed at him.
Wow look at that huge overreaction by Vierni. If I were scum, clearly I would just have gone along with Nacho today, given that he is plainly the easier of the two of you to wagon.
Isn't your Vi scum case hinged on how she's reacting to presumed buddy Iso?
That's not why [Fate] thinks Vi is scum. Hell if I know the actual reason, but that isn't it.
The read on you came before the read on Iso, and town Fate would have reasons for you being scum on your own merits.
Please note the bolded. Nacho specifically projects Fate as Town. In context, this seems like a contrast with what scum Fate would do (which is what was actually going on).
He's basically placed a giant shubbery on this post/vote, though. He calls one buddy town, "PoEs" the other on day 1.
Isn't it usually FoS?
I can see what you're saying, but etc.
It's tomorrow. I would like an answer to this, please.
Yesterday, Nacho was highly interested in getting me lynched. This seems highly unlikely for a townie to do. In the situation we were in, clearly Voxx v. Thor needed to be resolved. Over everything else. Trying to work out the 'other' scum when you have an absolutely clear dichotomy is ridiculous. It was either A)bad play or B)scummy play. Given the context of this game, I don't think that 'bad play' should ever be used nor accepted as an argument for someone.
Furthermore, what were you expecting from Vi here, exactly?
I was expecting him to not just run into the day voting, and I was expecting him(and any townie) to let myself v. Nacho play itself out. Or, if he thinks that I was just going to fail to defend myself and he wanted to just lynch Nacho to avoid the possibility of me losing that argument and getting mislynched, I would expect him to say as much. None of that happened. The way that he just came into the thread voting Nacho looks very, very scummy in my eyes.
What makes you say that?
I made a pretty minor statement, and he responded with EIGHT posts in a row, trying to create more suspicion against both myself AND Nacho. It comes across awfully.
@Vi: He actually voted Fate, though, so it wouldn't be a FoS (finger of suspicion). That's generally used here as a 'secondary vote' or in a position where voting is unsafe. I said PoE (process of elimination) because he was basically weeding out who could be scum based on who wasn't a town read to him from MS.
I'm still trying to parse the 'scumslip' of Nacho's. So, looking back, it certainly appears as though Fate's idea of you being scum happened before he read Iso's stuff, but that was his second post of the game and could have been considered RVS material. Two posts later (92) he's all over Iso and then later switches his vote to Iso (130) saying this:
Quote from Fate »
whoa whoa whoa did Vi just get cold feet on his bus?
Nacho is saying that a "Town" Fate would have had his own reasons for thinking you (Vi) to be scum outside of the Iso relationship. So, I might still be dense - not seeing it, other than he took the RVS post seriously? Is that what you're getting at?
It's tomorrow. I would like an answer to this, please.
Yesterday, Nacho was highly interested in getting me lynched. This seems highly unlikely for a townie to do. In the situation we were in, clearly Voxx v. Thor needed to be resolved. Over everything else. Trying to work out the 'other' scum when you have an absolutely clear dichotomy is ridiculous. It was either A)bad play or B)scummy play. Given the context of this game, I don't think that 'bad play' should ever be used nor accepted as an argument for someone.
I made the point, though, and I think Voxx was urging it as well before the day was cut short that having conversation with a full house made more sense than getting to today and doing it. I don't see anything wrong with Nacho pursuing the idea of finding the second scum yesterday - there was zero chance anyone besides Thor/Voxx was getting lynched.
Quote from Cyan »
Quote from DYH »
Furthermore, what were you expecting from Vi here, exactly?
I was expecting him to not just run into the day voting, and I was expecting him(and any townie) to let myself v. Nacho play itself out. Or, if he thinks that I was just going to fail to defend myself and he wanted to just lynch Nacho to avoid the possibility of me losing that argument and getting mislynched, I would expect him to say as much. None of that happened. The way that he just came into the thread voting Nacho looks very, very scummy in my eyes.
This is why I asked the question below - do you not recall that I had Vierni atop the scum list yesterday as the most likely candidate? That you expected a you vs. Nacho showdown speaks to a "him or me" mentality that is unsettling.
Quote from Cyan »
Quote from DYH »
What makes you say that?
I made a pretty minor statement, and he responded with EIGHT posts in a row, trying to create more suspicion against both myself AND Nacho. It comes across awfully.
Sorry, should've been clearer, but I addressed it above. I was asking more about the second part "If I were scum..." line.
I made the point, though, and I think Voxx was urging it as well before the day was cut short that having conversation with a full house made more sense than getting to today and doing it. I don't see anything wrong with Nacho pursuing the idea of finding the second scum yesterday - there was zero chance anyone besides Thor/Voxx was getting lynched.
Given that you're saying this from a standpoint of 'incredibly likely to be town', I guess that I can't really argue with it. But it still seems like sub-optimal play.
This is why I asked the question below - do you not recall that I had Vierni atop the scum list yesterday as the most likely candidate? That you expected a you vs. Nacho showdown speaks to a "him or me" mentality that is unsettling.
As of yesterday, Nacho was my #1 suspect, and I appeared to be his. Vierni was on my radar, but barely. I also promised Nacho that I would respond to his case on me today, and that was what I was intending to do, and I presumed that you and Vierni, regardless of alignment frankly, would let this occur before making any decisions. So I was pretty taken aback when I came into the thread to see Vierni coming out guns blazing at Nacho.
Sorry, should've been clearer, but I addressed it above. I was asking more about the second part "If I were scum..." line.
If I am scum, I would plainly have been setting up yesterday to get a Nacho mislynch today. And accordingly, coming into the thread seeing Vi voting Nacho would have been a home run for me. Why would I rock that boat? It would have been much simpler to just continue on from yesterday, as opposed to trying to take on Vi AND Nacho(a situation I am still clearly going to have to address).
Nacho's vote on Iso is bad. Like completely miserably awful. A couple of his posts prior to that aren't much better. Other people from MS, is this normal behavior for him? I still think that Iso is scum, but I would probably switch wagons if Iso weren't already at L-2.
This looks like something I would post as scum.
Indifferent to this point.
Quote from Vierni »
2)
Quote from Cyan 149 »
And Iso's 'trying a new playstyle' argument doesn't sound sincere. Mostly because, from what I can tell, he is only trying it for this series of 3 games? Call me skeptical that someone would abandon the playstyle that they love for only a few games.
Bullcensored.
I'm with you on this one. What I couldn't elaborate on earlier as to why I easily believed Iso was that I was modding a game he and Cyan were playing in. Iso was in the process of "getting into it" again with players in-game (namely AsianInvasion, who was scum FWIW, but there were multiple complaints about the overall tone in the game, itself), and it wasn't the first incident where people have actively said they would avoid playing in games with him.
Given the fact we have "guests", I didn't find it at all hard to believe Iso would be "on his best behavior".
Quote from Vierni »
3)
Quote from Cyan 433 »
And if Nacho needs one more vote on him to claim, then someone should put a vote on him. There is no doubting that he deserves it.
"deserves"
Is this the "honestly" tell of MS? Urban legend here has it that scum are more likely to use that word than townies, since the latter should be telling the truth all the time*. Or is this specific to mindset?
Quote from Vierni »
4)
Quote from "Cyan 599" »
Re: Thor: It's true that he has been posting differently, but now that we know that he is in Vietnam and is posting from an iPad, it makes sense. I don't think that further suspicion is warranted at this time.
In the mean time, more people should be looking at DYH. His attitude toward Thor is dubious at best. He was all up in arms about how Thor's attitude sucks, and then when Thor's posting demeanor changed, DYH used that as a point against him too. This smacks of opportunism. He didn't even bother trying to figure out WHY Thor was suddenly acting so differently. This isn't even consistent with DYH's stance of accepting Iso's 'well I'm trying a different playstyle'.
See also:
Quote from DYH 604 »
Wow, is that completely incorrect.
I've known Thor has been in Vietnam posting from an iPad, he mentioned it quite some time ago - and, as I pointed out - was posting like he did previously while on said iPad. So I don't believe the 'tone shift' is directly related to that. It is, in my opinion - as I clearly expressed in a very recent post - tied to his inability to just disregard the attack on him now that Kami/DGB is involved.
For what it's worth, it was a hard argument to put into words - especially with all the semantics-twisting Thor was doing - but I think the last sentence made it as clear as I could. I'm not as torn up about this point as some of the other ones you make below as a result.
Quote from Vierni »
5)
Quote from Cyan 635 »
Do you guys ever actually make detailed, organized cases on each other? I understand why people want to vote for Thor, but that is largely thanks to the effort of DYH(even though I disagree with the case).
But you seem very determined to have people vote for AF, and I have no idea why.
Also, KOL still seems like the scummiest person from MS. And it's not particularly close.
Defense of both Thor and Fate simultaneously was a surprisingly common thing in my readthrough. Cyan went on to vote Fate when it was fairly safe to do so and it looked like his own site had caught him.
I'm seeing that from your bulleted list.
Quote from Vierni »
6)
Quote from Cyan 816 »
Are you asking me who you should vig? I would recommend KoL, assuming that we are lynching Iso. Otherwise, I would recommend Iso.
with
Quote from Cyan 836 »
I agree with Voxx. Doc is a role that appears in virtually every MTGS game. If no one counterclaims KoL, then he is it.
To put these posts in perspective, the Doctor claim was post 777. Given the knowledge in 836, why say KoL should be vigged?
Cyan needs to address this point.
Quote from Vierni »
7)
Quote from Cyan 915 »
So...to summarize follow up events. Iso clarifies that he is not, in fact, counter-claiming llamarble. He just completely thinks that Llamarble is scum based on role flavor. And apparently said role flavor is not particularly concrete. Llamarble then partakes in an exercise where he helps Iso legitimize/make sense of this belief.
Honestly, what is going on this game? We're like 6 hours from deadline, and there is almost no solidity as far as whom we should be lynching.
Everyone is unvoting Iso, but somehow they are not voting Llamarble instead. This makes zero sense. If you believe that Iso is town, you should clearly be voting the person that he flatly stated is scum.
"If you believe Iso is Town, then you should be following this logic onto this claimed confirmable power role even though I just said that logic is idiotic."
Along with the point above, Cyan does seem to have a nasty habit of trying to get town PRs killed.
Quote from Vierni »
8)
Quote from Cyan 994 »
I'm not convinced that any scum was going to leave themself sitting on Iso's wagon once it became completely obvious that AF was getting lynched(yes yes, I get the irony of me making this statement). I certainly don't think that this is sufficient valid reasoning for voting Voxxicus.
I mentioned this at the time, but I believe Cyan is projecting his own notions of what looks scummy onto other people here. Of note, the only people other than Cyan whose alignments are in question right now were at the beginning of the Cyan wagon, so this comes across as Cyan trying to justify himself.
I'm going to pull a dC here and just say Mmhmm for the moment.
I don't think Cyouni makes sense as a scumbuddy the way Fate was talking about the slot. That looks like a chosen mislynch for the day to me.
Two people came in and were voting Cyouni. You say it's the 'chosen mislynch' for the day. Which of them is the scum pushing the mislynch, then? You say that, and then vote...DYH.
The logic doesn't mesh, at all. You think Cyouni is town, you think scum are pushing the lynch on him, but you aren't making any attempt to determine the alignment of Vi/Nacho - who are the only people voting/pushing for that lynch.
Reconcile this.
This seems like the best post I've seen all game. I'm greatly looking forward to seeing it answered.
This post looks exactly like something I would post, right down to the verbiage. As scum.
See point 1. (Indifferent to application of self-meta to Cyan.)
Quote from Vierni »
10)
Quote from Cyan 994 »
I found(and still do) Thor and Vierni to be thoroughly town,
Quote from Vierni 1028 »
I wouldn't know it reading this page.
But aside from asking if you have strong reads at all,
Quote from Cyan 1033 »
Things change? You're still my leading town candidate, but not much beyond that. llamarble is clearly town, but that's not really a 'read'.
I know I'm skimming for a select few peoples' posts but I missed where Thor became a (benign) scum read.
Isn't Cyan just indirectly saying you surpassed Thor on the townie-meter here?
Quote from Vierni »
11)
Quote from "Cyan 1040" »
Interesting. DC's analysis is pretty impressive, from an objective standpoint. If I wasn't me, I'd probably think I was scum.
Though I will note that he makes more direct conclusions in that post than he is typically prone toward.
Both lines of this post should be struck with lightning.
"Interesting". (That's another MTGS urban scum-hunting legend.) Cyan really has downplayed his mafia skills throughout this game, though.
Quote from Vierni »
12)
Quote from Cyan 1040 »
I also think that, at most, one of DYH/Thor is scum. DYH hinted toward a power role yesterday, and should be expected to deliver on that at some point. If I were him and I had relevant information to share, I'd consider doing so today, because he seems fairly unlikely to survive tonight now that the Doc is already dead.
Dat fishing. If I were a power role and I had relevant information to share, I would consider not being an imbecile about it.
Coupled with points 6&7 (I think, too lazy to scroll back) this does have a fishing feel to it, but in fairness, the bulk of my defense to Cyan in Day 1 was "leave me alone" because I was annoyed.
Quote from Vierni »
13)
Quote from Cyan 1151 »
If I were scum, I would never have bussed AF there. I gain absolutely nothing out of doing so(you could even argue that I look worse because I gave up the Iso case that I had been on all day). But I did it anyway, because it was the correct play, as town.
Beyond what I said earlier about Cyan projecting what he thinks is scummy, the last two words tip that he's being way too self-aware.
Yeah, I'm picking up what you're putting down.
Quote from Vierni »
14) Pushing No Lynch and Voxxicus+DYH on Day 3 looks like "I know I can't get away with actively PUSHING for it, but I'd like to float the idea" and when called on it responded with "but I would never do this as scum" and see my earlier thoughts about having some very neatly defined boundaries for what he would do as scum.
Yeah, the question here becomes "paranoid town Cyan" or "scum gambit Cyan trying to win now". This is a healthy dose of WIFOM and I will say Cyan has the balls to do it, but I wouldn't hold it as a point against him.
With a little research, I suspect I know what Cyan is recalling [a scenario from Redux 2], and that reaction feels genuine and leads me to believe his knee-jerk vote of me is "I-don't-give-a-****" Cyan mode rather than scum-Cyan mode. He's playing completely different from that game or Survival Horror (where he was scum in both).
This coincides nicely with his acceptance of play styles I think he'd otherwise find reprehensible (Thor, Fate), insulting his own "team" (MTGS players), and being inattentive, which is actually most similar to Cyberspace where he was town.
Unvote [Cyan]
Considering the names you mentioned as examples here, please revisit this, DYH.
Yeah, this is where the meta is giving me heartache, because the above statement is highly accurate given my extensive history with Cyan. I can't deny that's one hell of a coincidence, though, that he played nice with both guys who ended up scum.
Quote from Vierni »
2)
Quote from Cyan 503 »
The frustration in Iso's last post seems sincere to me, I'm willing to give him a bit more time to see what happens. Unvote, Vote DYH
I'll be in trouble if this wagon doesn't work out, I don't have any other strong scum reads at this moment.
This is a rather self-aware thing to say, and not a good one to admit as scum.
Yeah, but it does fit with the consistent downplaying Cyan did of his skills throughout the game.
Quote from Vierni »
3)
Quote from Cyan 1232 »
My two strongest scumreads are DYH and Thor. This is obviously problematic, because it seems extremely unlikely for them to be scum together.
I need to back and reread Vierni and Nacho and see their various interactions.
There is always the argument that scum wouldn't forget who the claimed clears and power roles are. However, Voxxicus did survive the Night. Who knows if Thor was around to direct the kill or say "sounds good" or even "Voxxicus should only be one-shot with this kind of balance" (Voxxicus never suggested otherwise IIRC).
Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of this, either.
Quote from Vierni »
4) Cyan's reaction to the opening of Day 4 is not entirely implausible as Town if he was planning to vote Nacho. However, casting a vote would be entirely harmless unless it was on himself, unless DYH is scum.
See my questions to him - I'm worried about his mindset as a result, actually.
This is a LOT of stuff. My scumdar readings have shifted around as a result of all this, and ironically enough I'm at the position Cyan was referencing after all. It's very likely either he or Nacho as the last remaining scum, and my brain tells me one, and my gut the other.
I'd like to see Cyan's response to Nacho's case, and Nacho to Vierni.
So I'm not doing quote stripes. Hopefully this is still legible.
Cyan 1414
Nacho figuring Thor vs. Voxxicus out - I think everyone, you (Cyan) included, believed Voxxicus the first time and just moved on.
Vi scummy for not watching Nacho vs. Cyan play out - As scum I'd be totes happy with that and just voting the loser, but I'm giving you flack for saying that sort of thing, so let's not use that excuse. Excuse me for not conforming to your predefined beliefs of what's scummy and what's not, then. Given the circumstances of a four-player LyLo there's nothing actually scummy about it - quite the opposite, actually, as voting first in LyLo is generally seen as a disadvantage (how can I quickhammer Nacho? and for that matter, is DYH going to vote Cyan?).
Vi made eight posts - Spoilers: Not all of that was directed at you. It was a roundabout way of answering Nacho, actually. "Did you do Voxxicus' suggested reading overNight?" "He told us to read? ...so he did. Should I? ...meh, may as well. Ooh this is interesting. Oh wow I didn't realize Cyan looked THIS bad." etc.
----------------------
DYH 1415
I've still not seen process of elimination used to only clear one scum, is what I'm saying.
As I'm pretty sure I mentioned or insinuated before there's nothing in Fate's posts to suggest why I would be scum, and I had to drag an answer out of Nacho because I had to be the third person to ask the question you saw quoted (Nacho answered the wrong question the previous times). That aside, the gist of the point I'm making is that Nacho felt a need to specify that Fate as Town would have a reason, without regard for Fate as scum.
That said, looking back that was post 146 and Nacho thinking Fate was scum started at 188, so one could plausibly say that Nacho started with the default assumption that Nacho thought Fate was playing his usual Town game.
----------------------
Cyan 1417
Cyan-scum rocking the proverbial boat over Vi voting Nacho - It's not a home run because it's four-player LyLo and you need to keep the ruse up until DYH votes.
----------------------
DYH 1418
3) "to be honest" tell - I actually know who started this; it was curiouskarmadog, semifamous unusable shift key person, and he said some time after the fact that he made the "tell" up as scum to push a mislynch and hated how it had caught on. I'm not going to chase that.
What I -am- going to chase is Cyan pushing for Nacho to claim because he "deserves" it. This is far more often than not a scum move, a move to punish a poor Town player for poor play (and indirectly reward the far superior player speaking who happens to be scum). Get the difference? A Town player wants to lynch someone for being scum, and a scum player wants to lynch someone for being a bad player. The only times you will see a Town player talk about "deserving" are:
a) in LyLo when saying that someone "deserves" the win more (the theory of this is debatable)
b) when dealing with a village idiot that they would rather lynch than try to parse the alignment of because they are a danger to everyone around them
and I firmly believe that b) is not the case here because this is an invitational game and while I don't know if Nacho has played here before Cyan has no grounds to believe that Nacho is persistently a bad player who should not have been invited to an invitational game to start with.
Yes I did just finish watching an episode of Penn & Teller.
4) Cyan defending iPad Thor and going after DYH - Fair enough. I still wanted to note the Thor defense. Also, seriously, posting from an iPad? I think phoneposting is wildly impractical, so etc. *shrug* I will probably be one of the last people on earth to still use a desktop computer.
5) Defense of Fate and Thor - Journalistic honesty: defense of Thor and Fate together was common from more than just Cyan if memory serves.
10) Vanishing solid Town read on Thor - Indirectly, yes, Cyan did say my Towniness surpassed Thor's. I'm going to put a medieval-style halo behind Altaria's head. But that's not the point. Somehow somewhere Cyan got a scummish read on Thor (not quoted) and no one's really sure how.
11) Cyan's response to desCoures' case against him - Again, "interesting" is not the word I'm pursuing. If I had a feather for every "...hmm." and "...mmm." desCoures and Voxxicus put up in this game that caused me to twitch, I'd be even fluffier. Cyan's first line looks like "caught for the right reasons", and not in the way that desCoures did it when I confronted him about Fate. The attack on desCoures is a feeble attempt to save face by pushing back on the person making the case and I believe that was called out at the time.
14) Cyan's motive WIFOM - I think we can safely rule out Cyan trying for the quick win given the list of "why as scum would I expose myself" responses we've gotten from him. A lot of his posts look pro-scum given post hoc alignment knowledge; I'm actually kind of impressed with how he's been able to weave in lines that hurt the Town and never got sufficiently called. I don't think the Voxxicus-Thor decision would have been as protracted without Cyan's involvement.
I'm with you on this one. What I couldn't elaborate on earlier as to why I easily believed Iso was that I was modding a game he and Cyan were playing in. Iso was in the process of "getting into it" again with players in-game (namely AsianInvasion, who was scum FWIW, but there were multiple complaints about the overall tone in the game, itself), and it wasn't the first incident where people have actively said they would avoid playing in games with him.
Given the fact we have "guests", I didn't find it at all hard to believe Iso would be "on his best behavior".
I will be extremely surprised if Iso maintains this 'new playstyle' beyond this game(or at least this series of games w/ MS)
Is this the "honestly" tell of MS? Urban legend here has it that scum are more likely to use that word than townies, since the latter should be telling the truth all the time*. Or is this specific to mindset?
I'm tired of sitting around watching people get away with scummy behavior 'because that is how they are'. I have gone back to my old mentality of "shape up or ship out", effectively. This part of my mindset is not going to change regardless of alignment.
Cyan needs to address this point.
I pretty clearly just missed the post where KoL claimed Doc, as someone pointed out shortly after this to me(I believe it was Voxx, but it might have been Cyouni). I mean like..are you really arguing that I saw a Doc claim and knowingly tried to get the guy lynched? That is absurd.
I'm going to pull a dC here and just say Mmhmm for the moment.
I don't even know what 'trying to project his own notions of what looks scummy onto other people here' is supposed to mean. I can't parse that sentence any way that makes sense.
"Interesting". (That's another MTGS urban scum-hunting legend.) Cyan really has downplayed his mafia skills throughout this game, though.
Around the time that this game started, I also started another game that I got a 'special invite' to, on another site. I was really out of my element(Their day phases were always exactly 48 hours long, night was 12 hours, etc) and I got vigged as scum N1. It forced me to look at the perspective that I might not be as good at mafia as I thought, and maybe that our site is just really bad, but I'm not quite as bad as everyone else. It's pretty depressing.
Yeah, I'm picking up what you're putting down.
Everyone that is even a little bit capable at this game is self-aware. This is a nonsense point.
Yeah, the question here becomes "paranoid town Cyan" or "scum gambit Cyan trying to win now". This is a healthy dose of WIFOM and I will say Cyan has the balls to do it, but I wouldn't hold it as a point against him.
There was no reason NOT to NL yesterday. The scum would just have killed Voxx and then we'd have lynched Thor. This would have helped us avoid the corner case scenario where DYH is a Godfather, because he wouldn't be able to explain being alive the next day.
This game has just been a mixture of frustation and 'complete lack of fun' for me. I haven't been able to muster any kind of enthusiasm for it, despite the fact that I should feel flattered to be involved. I just hate the way that MS players approach the game. Their methodology might even be better than ours, but I still greatly dislike it. I hate reading through so many posts of nonsense/non-explanations(even when asked) to try and find something that I can agree with/disagree with.
Around the time that this game started, I also started another game that I got a 'special invite' to, on another site.
Just as an out-of-game thing, but how did that invitational go in general? I know the game took place and I saw you and Goofball were in it, but etc..
--
Quote from Cyan »
I don't even know what 'trying to project his own notions of what looks scummy onto other people here' is supposed to mean.
"I would never do that! Because that would look scummy." (or in this case the inverse)
--
Quote from Cyan »
I pretty clearly just missed the post where KoL claimed Doc, as someone pointed out shortly after this to me(I believe it was Voxx, but it might have been Cyouni).
i'm quite hungover. i'm gonna triple post with priority #1 being this post. priority number two being responses and attacks. priority number three being everything else.
BIG CYAN PROBLEMS:
1) The majority of his posts are Day 1. When claims started coming out and the puzzle actually started unfolding, Cyan cooled down big time. Posting levels decreasing is not a major deal because Day 1 was huge, long, etc. The problem is that all of the fire that Cyan had sort of burned out completely, due apparently to the Day 1 lynch. I don't find a ****ty first day that ends with a scum lynch to be something that completely wrecks morale, but his Cyouni push in later days had no comparison to his other pushes, and I think that may be because of scum fatigue.
2) Day 1 Pushes: Iso (chainsawing Thor), DYH (chainsawing Thor), KoL (chainsawing Thor). He consistently finds KoL and I scummy, but doesn't attack Fate early-game (why? it's not like he was putting out a ton more content than we were at that moment). He ends up on both Fate wagons, but both times also as a late addition and his hop is inconsistent with his thought process towards Fate. The first time he votes Fate, there are plenty of other options on stronger stated scumreads. Why vote Fate in that particular time unless he was distancing with his buddy? Second Fate vote is right when Fate is going to be lynched when Cyan goes "well maybe I'm wrong but if Fate flips scum then that day was just lucky". To me, that reads as an attempt to discredit those on the Fate wagon since him and his buddy didn't partake too much in the scumlynch Day 1; it also seems like an unnatural flip from his play before.
3) Cyan buddying up to the MTGSers in the way that he did seemed a bit sketchy, but sketchier were his attacks on KoL and I while skipping over Fate, who was also a lazy low content poster at the time. If I remember properly, DYH even brought up that Cyan was giving the MSers more slack than he was expecting him to; I think that's because both of his buddies were in the ms crew and he would rather focus on the mtgs group instead of the ms one.
4) His push on Thor; so in case you hadn't noticed, Cyan had Thor as town town town for pretty much the whole game until yesterday. He then sort of sets up for the whole "one of Thor/DYH is scum" dichotomy so that he can lynch DYH one day and then bus his buddy the next. He also never seemed like he was moving towards voting Thor at any time during his play yesterday, and thanking DYH for catching Thorscum seems like an odd thing to do as town because he caught Thorscum as well.
1) The majority of his posts are Day 1. When claims started coming out and the puzzle actually started unfolding, Cyan cooled down big time. Posting levels decreasing is not a major deal because Day 1 was huge, long, etc. The problem is that all of the fire that Cyan had sort of burned out completely, due apparently to the Day 1 lynch. I don't find a ****ty first day that ends with a scum lynch to be something that completely wrecks morale, but his Cyouni push in later days had no comparison to his other pushes, and I think that may be because of scum fatigue.
The same day 1 where I was wrong about Iso, wrong about KoL, didn't notice AF acting like scum? How could I not be gunshy afterwards? And I don't get 'scum fatigue'.
2) Day 1 Pushes: Iso (chainsawing Thor), DYH (chainsawing Thor), KoL (chainsawing Thor). He consistently finds KoL and I scummy, but doesn't attack Fate early-game (why? it's not like he was putting out a ton more content than we were at that moment). He ends up on both Fate wagons, but both times also as a late addition and his hop is inconsistent with his thought process towards Fate. The first time he votes Fate, there are plenty of other options on stronger stated scumreads. Why vote Fate in that particular time unless he was distancing with his buddy? Second Fate vote is right when Fate is going to be lynched when Cyan goes "well maybe I'm wrong but if Fate flips scum then that day was just lucky". To me, that reads as an attempt to discredit those on the Fate wagon since him and his buddy didn't partake too much in the scumlynch Day 1; it also seems like an unnatural flip from his play before.
I just addressed some of this. As for why I didn't attack Fade early, he wasn't really posting. Compared to many others, who were A)posting and B)being scummy in the process.
3) Cyan buddying up to the MTGSers in the way that he did seemed a bit sketchy, but sketchier were his attacks on KoL and I while skipping over Fate, who was also a lazy low content poster at the time. If I remember properly, DYH even brought up that Cyan was giving the MSers more slack than he was expecting him to; I think that's because both of his buddies were in the ms crew and he would rather focus on the mtgs group instead of the ms one.
I wouldn't say that I 'buddied up' to the MTGSers at all. I went after DYH and Iso Day 1. And I went after you and KoL because your posts read to me as scummy. It had nothing to do with your level of content, and nowhere do I recall saying anything of the sort. also, you appear to be contradicting yourself here, accusing me of giving MSers slack at the same time of accusing me of attacking you and KoL and giving MTGSers slack. So which is it?
4) His push on Thor; so in case you hadn't noticed, Cyan had Thor as town town town for pretty much the whole game until yesterday. He then sort of sets up for the whole "one of Thor/DYH is scum" dichotomy so that he can lynch DYH one day and then bus his buddy the next. He also never seemed like he was moving towards voting Thor at any time during his play yesterday, and thanking DYH for catching Thorscum seems like an odd thing to do as town because he caught Thorscum as well.
I have alot of history with DYH, and I felt bad that I was apparently wrong about him AND wrong about Thor while he was simultaneously right about Thor.
Ultimately, this game has apparently solidified a concern that I had. I can't read people from your site at all, because your general approach to the game infuriates me. You all post tons of nonsense, and everyone has to read all of it because somewhere buried in it is some relevant content. I played 2 games at MS years ago(Wheel of Time and some other one) and they were the same way, and I hated it. And apparently nothing has changed. I thought that Thor and Vierni were town Day 1 because they had meaningful things to say in a way that could be easily parsed.
1) Vote record D2. Literally sheeping me. Admittedly, cloud bird has cottony wings and clumping to me is likely a highly pleasurable experience. While both Nacho and Cyan were on the desCoures wagon at some point, Cyan went off to disregard the Town justification on Cyouni (to be fair, I can sympathize) while Nacho kept his vote where it counted toward the mislynch.
dC was the best lynch for yesterday, unfortunately. I wanted to give him room based on Cyouni being the other good option but that being a tired bandwagon + slight doubts coupled with your doubts. Thor and Cyan both were pretty solidly townreads.
3) Both scum defended Nacho when it came down to it. Given that neither of the four players I'm looking at really went after each other (except Cyan-Nacho) I'm inclined to believe that their goal wasn't to bus.
Quote from Thor 407 »
I am not a fan of the Nacho push.
It lacks even more in the "case" department than either the Iso or Cyourni wagons and yet people are acting like there is something there.
wts, over?
Quote from Fate 415 »
What the litearall hell is this talk of a NACHO wagon?
Fate usually defends me when he's scum and I'm town; I do the same for him. We expect accurate reads EVENTUALLY, and both are fans of calling people town to give people false reassurance and then 180'ing the hell out of them.
Thor buddied the **** out of me; he defended me especially when I began to back him up on Iso; I don't think my early townread on Thor was weird because Thor is a god of scum.
I'll also use this space to bring up again how CYAN defended FATE for no reason. He doesn't have the extensive history Fate and I have so it's not like he naturally wants to townread him or something. I also sat my ass down on Fate for a pretty long time despite other juicy mislynch options available; I'm sure if Thor and I were calling him town and I was citing juicy ~meta~ reasons, we'd get away with directing the lynch somewhere else.
1)
Quote from Vi »
Quote from DYH 336 »
With a little research, I suspect I know what Cyan is recalling [a scenario from Redux 2], and that reaction feels genuine and leads me to believe his knee-jerk vote of me is "I-don't-give-a-****" Cyan mode rather than scum-Cyan mode. He's playing completely different from that game or Survival Horror (where he was scum in both).
This coincides nicely with his acceptance of play styles I think he'd otherwise find reprehensible (Thor, Fate), insulting his own "team" (MTGS players), and being inattentive, which is actually most similar to Cyberspace where he was town.
Unvote [Cyan]
Considering the names you mentioned as examples here, please revisit this, DYH.
Notice how he's complaining about MS's playstyles now despite meshing so well with some of us in the beginning. Even his apathy isn't consistent.
It's tomorrow. I would like an answer to this, please.
Yesterday, Nacho was highly interested in getting me lynched. This seems highly unlikely for a townie to do. In the situation we were in, clearly Voxx v. Thor needed to be resolved. Over everything else. Trying to work out the 'other' scum when you have an absolutely clear dichotomy is ridiculous. It was either A)bad play or B)scummy play. Given the context of this game, I don't think that 'bad play' should ever be used nor accepted as an argument for someone.
The situation of Voxx v. Thor was a situation that was resolved pretty solidly in favor of Thor-scum when I decided there probably wasn't a framer in the game. I like talking to people while they go down (usually) even if I think they're scum as **** because sometimes townies who are about to be mislynched say some really really town things and sometimes scum say some interesting things they shouldn't. Check out this quote from Xenoblade:
Quote from Nachomamma8 »
and i will always listen to you even if i have to lynch you
no matter what <3
1) The majority of his posts are Day 1. When claims started coming out and the puzzle actually started unfolding, Cyan cooled down big time. Posting levels decreasing is not a major deal because Day 1 was huge, long, etc. The problem is that all of the fire that Cyan had sort of burned out completely, due apparently to the Day 1 lynch. I don't find a ****ty first day that ends with a scum lynch to be something that completely wrecks morale, but his Cyouni push in later days had no comparison to his other pushes, and I think that may be because of scum fatigue.
The same day 1 where I was wrong about Iso, wrong about KoL, didn't notice AF acting like scum? How could I not be gunshy afterwards? And I don't get 'scum fatigue'.
Usually people don't like being wrong, so when they get three reads wrong they don't give up completely. Everyone mislynches, everyone has scum dodge them. Why does that mean it's game over for you?
Quote from Cyan »
2) Day 1 Pushes: Iso (chainsawing Thor), DYH (chainsawing Thor), KoL (chainsawing Thor). He consistently finds KoL and I scummy, but doesn't attack Fate early-game (why? it's not like he was putting out a ton more content than we were at that moment). He ends up on both Fate wagons, but both times also as a late addition and his hop is inconsistent with his thought process towards Fate. The first time he votes Fate, there are plenty of other options on stronger stated scumreads. Why vote Fate in that particular time unless he was distancing with his buddy? Second Fate vote is right when Fate is going to be lynched when Cyan goes "well maybe I'm wrong but if Fate flips scum then that day was just lucky". To me, that reads as an attempt to discredit those on the Fate wagon since him and his buddy didn't partake too much in the scumlynch Day 1; it also seems like an unnatural flip from his play before.
I just addressed some of this. As for why I didn't attack Fade early, he wasn't really posting. Compared to many others, who were A)posting and B)being scummy in the process.
KoL wasn't posting really.
I wasn't posting really.
You attacked both of us and didn't have a problem with it at all. You also TOWNREAD Fate early. It's not like you ignored him, you townread him. Why?
Quote from Cyan »
3) Cyan buddying up to the MTGSers in the way that he did seemed a bit sketchy, but sketchier were his attacks on KoL and I while skipping over Fate, who was also a lazy low content poster at the time. If I remember properly, DYH even brought up that Cyan was giving the MSers more slack than he was expecting him to; I think that's because both of his buddies were in the ms crew and he would rather focus on the mtgs group instead of the ms one.
I wouldn't say that I 'buddied up' to the MTGSers at all. I went after DYH and Iso Day 1. And I went after you and KoL because your posts read to me as scummy. It had nothing to do with your level of content, and nowhere do I recall saying anything of the sort. also, you appear to be contradicting yourself here, accusing me of giving MSers slack at the same time of accusing me of attacking you and KoL and giving MTGSers slack. So which is it?
MSers, sorry. I think you were buddying up to MSers mostly because Thor and Fate were your scumbuddies and Llamarble was strongly reading you as town. You made a quote about how you enjoyed MS playstyles (same post where you attacked MTGSers), which I thought was buddying with MSers.
Quote from Cyan »
4) His push on Thor; so in case you hadn't noticed, Cyan had Thor as town town town for pretty much the whole game until yesterday. He then sort of sets up for the whole "one of Thor/DYH is scum" dichotomy so that he can lynch DYH one day and then bus his buddy the next. He also never seemed like he was moving towards voting Thor at any time during his play yesterday, and thanking DYH for catching Thorscum seems like an odd thing to do as town because he caught Thorscum as well.
I have alot of history with DYH, and I felt bad that I was apparently wrong about him AND wrong about Thor while he was simultaneously right about Thor.
Ultimately, this game has apparently solidified a concern that I had. I can't read people from your site at all, because your general approach to the game infuriates me. You all post tons of nonsense, and everyone has to read all of it because somewhere buried in it is some relevant content. I played 2 games at MS years ago(Wheel of Time and some other one) and they were the same way, and I hated it. And apparently nothing has changed. I thought that Thor and Vierni were town Day 1 because they had meaningful things to say in a way that could be easily parsed.
Wheel of Time sure as hell wasn't the same way? You had 50-50 scumreads, the game was no reveal and had a ****ton of scum in them and you ended up voting for a large portion of them and getting nightkilled. This game is a normal setup, logic lately seems to be pretty okay and pretty relevant (you sure as hell aren't attacking much of it), and your townread on Fate is even weirder because he didn't have meaningful things to say in a way that could be easily parsed, did he?
I'm also pretty sorry that you don't like the way we approach the game; I'm in love with the MTGS crew even if you rip on our style a bunch. desCoures's posts are pretty entertaining to read and he's pretty good at the game (even if I paranoia-lynched him when I shouldn't have), Cyouni got a lot of **** from us earlygame but in the end played pretty well (also was the most willing to do cross-site legwork; I didn't end up looking at that Iso game I promised except for a very short skim), Iso was pretty amusing in retrospect and certainly has a unique style, always enjoyable, Voxxicus was my personal opposite in the MS/MTGS tunnelfest but had the frame of mind to investigate people who were hard as hell to read and scum who would be pretty ****ing difficult to lynch, DYH was pretty quiet but ended up in going on his own path with ended up being against scum most of the time, and you had a pretty amazing D1 and although I think later play is a bit lacking think you're playing up the dislike because you're a scumbag and it explains why you've been so disconnected from the game lately.
I thought that Thor and Vierni were town Day 1 because they had meaningful things to say in a way that could be easily parsed.
...me?
If you mean me, when did I stop?
If you mean Fate, when did he start?
Quote from Nacho 1425 »
The situation of Voxx v. Thor was a situation that was resolved pretty solidly in favor of Thor-scum when I decided there probably wasn't a framer in the game. I like talking to people while they go down (usually) even if I think they're scum as **** because sometimes townies who are about to be mislynched say some really really town things and sometimes scum say some interesting things they shouldn't. Check out this quote from Xenoblade:
Please back this up.
(Also if memory serves Kinetic's Wheel of Time was such a complex game that etc.)
Notice how he's complaining about MS's playstyles now despite meshing so well with some of us in the beginning. Even his apathy isn't consistent.
A)I wanted to lynch you and KoL Day 1, because of your scummy playstyle. I was trying to give the general 'MS approach' the benefit of the doubt, because of the context of this game.
Usually people don't like being wrong, so when they get three reads wrong they don't give up completely. Everyone mislynches, everyone has scum dodge them. Why does that mean it's game over for you?
"Usually people don't like being wrong, so, when they're wrong a bunch they..continue to risk being wrong again" is essentially what you are saying here. Which makes no sense. This is also compounded with A)me being wrong about a townie(or 2) during the same timeframe in the game DYH was running and B)the invitiational game I was playing in where I got completely blown out. So I really didn't have much self-confidence at that point.
KoL wasn't posting really.
I wasn't posting really.
You attacked both of us and didn't have a problem with it at all. You also TOWNREAD Fate early. It's not like you ignored him, you townread him. Why?
You were both posting plenty, and your entire posting style was/is scummy. I think that the way that you are trying to blend yourself in with a dead townie here reflects very poorly upon you.
AF wasn't really saying much, and what he was saying didn't come across as overtly scummy to me. All of the initial votes against AF were from MS players. Nobody from MTGS went along with voting him, according to the vote count, until very late into his wagon/with an imminent deadline. You are making an accusation against me here, while ignoring the fact that multiple dead/confirmed town + DYH(likely town) acted the same way.
MSers, sorry. I think you were buddying up to MSers mostly because Thor and Fate were your scumbuddies and Llamarble was strongly reading you as town. You made a quote about how you enjoyed MS playstyles (same post where you attacked MTGSers), which I thought was buddying with MSers.
I think you are misunderstanding/misconstruing what I was saying there.
Wheel of Time sure as hell wasn't the same way? You had 50-50 scumreads, the game was no reveal and had a ****ton of scum in them and you ended up voting for a large portion of them and getting nightkilled. This game is a normal setup, logic lately seems to be pretty okay and pretty relevant (you sure as hell aren't attacking much of it), and your townread on Fate is even weirder because he didn't have meaningful things to say in a way that could be easily parsed, did he?
I'm surprised that you remember anything about that game. I certainly don't, except that it made me dislike the entire MS environment.
I'm also pretty sorry that you don't like the way we approach the game; I'm in love with the MTGS crew even if you rip on our style a bunch. desCoures's posts are pretty entertaining to read and he's pretty good at the game (even if I paranoia-lynched him when I shouldn't have), Cyouni got a lot of **** from us earlygame but in the end played pretty well (also was the most willing to do cross-site legwork; I didn't end up looking at that Iso game I promised except for a very short skim), Iso was pretty amusing in retrospect and certainly has a unique style, always enjoyable, Voxxicus was my personal opposite in the MS/MTGS tunnelfest but had the frame of mind to investigate people who were hard as hell to read and scum who would be pretty ****ing difficult to lynch, DYH was pretty quiet but ended up in going on his own path with ended up being against scum most of the time, and you had a pretty amazing D1 and although I think later play is a bit lacking think you're playing up the dislike because you're a scumbag and it explains why you've been so disconnected from the game lately.
I'm not saying that your approach to the game is bad or anything like that, it's just not fun for me. And I'm not playing up anything, that is not how I act. This game has been completely miserable for me, to the point that I'm not sure I even want to play in the next one.
@Vierni: I don't know if you stopped or not. I'm still trying to work up the motivation to re-read you and Nacho and figure out which one of you I think is the last scum.
14) Cyan's motive WIFOM - I think we can safely rule out Cyan trying for the quick win given the list of "why as scum would I expose myself" responses we've gotten from him. A lot of his posts look pro-scum given post hoc alignment knowledge; I'm actually kind of impressed with how he's been able to weave in lines that hurt the Town and never got sufficiently called. I don't think the Voxxicus-Thor decision would have been as protracted without Cyan's involvement
I don't think it ever felt like it was going to materialize into anything. I believe even Cyan, himself, indicated what unlikely parameters would need to have been met in order for Voxx to have been running a gambit there.
I agree with what you're saying on all other points.
At this point, I really just need Cyan to put in the effort he's alluding to above.
llamarble was confirmed Town and confirmed Vig. Voxxicus had a negative result on DYH with ~some power~.
Would, based on what is probably Role Cop + Goonx2, M:tGS have expected the info role to be a greater threat? A scummer may consider an info role in that case to be one-shot, especially considering the Doctor - on mafiascum this setup would be considered more Town-sided than average (what if the Gunsmith claimed D1 and the game became about hunting the Doctor? Honestly I'm kind of surprised follow-the-cop isn't somewhat standard).
More importantly, if llamarble were alive and Voxxicus were NKd, that would leave (assuming Cyouni getting shot was a given, though he said "Nacho/Thor/Cyouni have arguments" in 1180)
Vierni - TOWN
llamarble - TOWN
Cyan - TOWN
DYH - TOWN
Thor
Nacho
from llamarble's point of view. (1177 and various posts before)
What I'm asking is whether M:tGS would have always killed the info role in that situation based on standard site balance.
That and Nacho is basically annoying me by claiming to be MaStEr Of Vi MeTa and not sharing any of the reasons why I should clearly not be comparing this game to one of his scum games.
In most cases, I would expect the info role to have died. I also would have expected llamarble to be bluffing about a second shot - most vigs here are either full-out or 1-shot. I mentioned yesterday I think Thor/buddy had more to fear from llamarble than they did Voxx - devil you know vs. devil you don't on a couple levels. These two things do speak to a more likely Nacho connection, but on the flip side - Voxx had mentioned at the end of D2 he wanted to see Nacho/Cyouni dead. It's a gamble either way.
Can you explain this YOLOnacho or whatever you called it?
The situation of Voxx v. Thor was a situation that was resolved pretty solidly in favor of Thor-scum when I decided there probably wasn't a framer in the game. I like talking to people while they go down (usually) even if I think they're scum as **** because sometimes townies who are about to be mislynched say some really really town things and sometimes scum say some interesting things they shouldn't. Check out this quote from Xenoblade:
Please back this up.
(Also if memory serves Kinetic's Wheel of Time was such a complex game that etc.)
Xenoblade Mafia, end of Day 1. Read my interactions with 2.
@Vierni: I don't know if you stopped or not. I'm still trying to work up the motivation to re-read you and Nacho and figure out which one of you I think is the last scum.
That and Nacho is basically annoying me by claiming to be MaStEr Of Vi MeTa and not sharing any of the reasons why I should clearly not be comparing this game to one of his scum games.
Interactions, mostly.
When I turned to bussing I was pretty vocal on it (last minute case on DeasVail). My read on Fate was an early vote followed by telling Llamarble that he should do some rereading on Fate and rethink his read, whereas I'm pretty sure I didn't pull anything like that in #YOLOville. My talk with Thor is also interesting, doesn't really seem like a Nacho-scum move unless I thought that generating four pages of interactions with my partner at the end of the day when he's pretty much confirmed scum was a good idea for some reason. I've also haven't made any pushes against people who looked town as hell who needed to be mislynched; the closest that I've come to doing anything like that is the push against Cyan, but I don't think anyone thinks that he looks particularly town at this point, etc. I also don't see why my following you that closely bothers you as much as it does.
I'm not claiming to be master of vi meta anywhere? You-scum in this game would be pulling off a pretty good game that I haven't seen you pull off anywhere else. Do you disagree with that statement?
Notice how he's complaining about MS's playstyles now despite meshing so well with some of us in the beginning. Even his apathy isn't consistent.
A)I wanted to lynch you and KoL Day 1, because of your scummy playstyle. I was trying to give the general 'MS approach' the benefit of the doubt, because of the context of this game.
With a little research, I suspect I know what Cyan is recalling [a scenario from Redux 2], and that reaction feels genuine and leads me to believe his knee-jerk vote of me is "I-don't-give-a-****" Cyan mode rather than scum-Cyan mode. He's playing completely different from that game or Survival Horror (where he was scum in both).
This coincides nicely with his acceptance of play styles I think he'd otherwise find reprehensible (Thor, Fate), insulting his own "team" (MTGS players), and being inattentive, which is actually most similar to Cyberspace where he was town.
Unvote
@llamarble: No, I don't think Iso is scum. I still think Thor is, but that's a fruitless pursuit since everyone's afraid of the big, bad bully.
I wouldn't say that I 'accept' the playstyles of people from MS. I would prefer a game where people don't act that way. And if they were planning on sticking around here, I would get into it with them. But they're not, so I just force myself to read through it. And when you do read through it, Thor is very clearly town. AF is not as clearly town, but he doesn't appear particularly scummy to me either.
And I wasn't trying to insult my own team, it's just amusing to me that the MSers generally appear more townie. I'm honestly concerned about this, because it is unlikely that every scum is on the MTGS side. And yet, the 3 people that I want to be voting right now are all MTGS folk.
Hmmm. It doesn't seem like you were trying to give them the benefit of the doubt; it seems like you legitimately thought they were town. Or am I having trouble reading something here?
Usually people don't like being wrong, so when they get three reads wrong they don't give up completely. Everyone mislynches, everyone has scum dodge them. Why does that mean it's game over for you?
"Usually people don't like being wrong, so, when they're wrong a bunch they..continue to risk being wrong again" is essentially what you are saying here. Which makes no sense. This is also compounded with A)me being wrong about a townie(or 2) during the same timeframe in the game DYH was running and B)the invitiational game I was playing in where I got completely blown out. So I really didn't have much self-confidence at that point.
How long have you been playing mafia?
KoL wasn't posting really.
I wasn't posting really.
You attacked both of us and didn't have a problem with it at all. You also TOWNREAD Fate early. It's not like you ignored him, you townread him. Why?
You were both posting plenty, and your entire posting style was/is scummy. I think that the way that you are trying to blend yourself in with a dead townie here reflects very poorly upon you.
AF wasn't really saying much, and what he was saying didn't come across as overtly scummy to me. All of the initial votes against AF were from MS players. Nobody from MTGS went along with voting him, according to the vote count, until very late into his wagon/with an imminent deadline. You are making an accusation against me here, while ignoring the fact that multiple dead/confirmed town + DYH(likely town) acted the same way.
Voxxicus found Fate and I both scummy.
DYH compromised from Thor onto Fate pretty quickly.
dC said was lynching Iso, but said that "Fate should be shot by Llamarble or Llamarble should be lynched the next day".
Cyouni's suspects were Llamarble, Thor, and Fate.
You were the one who didn't have Fate as a suspect. In fact, in #761, you imply that he's actively looking for scum for no apparent reason.
Can you explain this YOLOnacho or whatever you called it?
You need the #hashtag in front of it. The title comes with its own #SWAG. (The game is here.)
This game is pretty much loaded with quote stripes - some of which I'm sure were legitimate two-line queries and many more of which were pretty much useless - and never actually went anywhere. Then sometime mid-late in Day 1 he pulled out this lengthy post that stood at such a complete contrast that it probably bought him a day's survival on its own. This is pretty much the same game he has played here.
Contrast HunterxHunterxMafia (which I mentioned Day 1) where he did the heavy lifting and I just called obvscum we worked together Day 1. Going from one game to the other, the difference in posting style is pretty obvious.
Also I saw Nacho's new avvy on 'scum and almost literally screamed.
I don't see a reason why Nacho's push on Day 3 and Day 4 wouldn't be home-stretch LyLo play.
As for shooting Voxxicus vs. shooting llamarble, I'd remind you that at the end of D2, Voxxicus looked... really weak. He dodged a noose by making a nebulous softclaim and not really not acting scummy. It wouldn't be out of the question for him to be overrun if he didn't get that positive result on Thor. In the meantime - would Cyan+Thor have shot llamarble?
---
Quote from Nacho 1433 »
Xenoblade Mafia, end of Day 1. Read my interactions with 2.
I see no need to. One game does not make for a pattern.
Also, I'm so devastatingly obvTown right now that I don't even have to say it for people to just generally believe it, even at LyLo. Except for Cyan.
Quote from Nacho 1433 »
I've also haven't made any pushes against people who looked town as hell who needed to be mislynched; the closest that I've come to doing anything like that is the push against Cyan, but I don't think anyone thinks that he looks particularly town at this point, etc.
@Vi: The correlation with the long save-my-ass post is legit. Nacho basically has been able to manufacture content when needed at critical points during this game, too.
It's possible Thor+Cyan shot llamarble if Thor wanted it badly enough. He strikes me as overbearing, and while Cyan used to be nearly as aggressive, he's not the same bulldog he used to be. Do you think Thor+Nacho shoot llamarble? I'm going to guess yes?
With the deadline ticking, I'm going to place a vote by the end of the today (Wednesday) and que sera, sera.
This game is pretty much loaded with quote stripes - some of which I'm sure were legitimate two-line queries and many more of which were pretty much useless - and never actually went anywhere. Then sometime mid-late in Day 1 he pulled out this lengthy post that stood at such a complete contrast that it probably bought him a day's survival on its own. This is pretty much the same game he has played here.
Except as that scumgame, I didn't make that giant wallpost as a response to pressure. I made that end of day 1 wallpost so that I would have a good amount of towncred going into the next day. I made a giant wallpost here because I was getting a lot of pressure and I figured the transparency switch needed to be flipped.
Quote from Nacho 1433 »
I've also haven't made any pushes against people who looked town as hell who needed to be mislynched; the closest that I've come to doing anything like that is the push against Cyan, but I don't think anyone thinks that he looks particularly town at this point, etc.
desCoures.
When suspects yesterday were desCoures/Cyouni/Thor, my thought process was pretty clear. Who would have been a better push? Cyouni?
In re: transparency - One would think that that's something scum are more likely to do.
A better push D2 would have been the end-Day wagon I chose. Also, hold up.
Quote from "Nacho 1433" »
I've also haven't made any pushes against people who looked town as hell who needed to be mislynched; the closest that I've come to doing anything like that is the push against Cyan, but I don't think anyone thinks that he looks particularly town at this point, etc.
So Cyan looks Town as hell but doesn't particularly count as Town as hell...? Given that you've been calling Cyan scum (in caps: BIG CYAN PROBLEMS) since early D3, how does that work?
@Vi: The correlation with the long save-my-ass post is legit. Nacho basically has been able to manufacture content when needed at critical points during this game, too.
It's possible Thor+Cyan shot llamarble if Thor wanted it badly enough. He strikes me as overbearing, and while Cyan used to be nearly as aggressive, he's not the same bulldog he used to be. Do you think Thor+Nacho shoot llamarble? I'm going to guess yes?
With the deadline ticking, I'm going to place a vote by the end of the today (Wednesday) and que sera, sera.
I would never have gone along with shooting llamarble as scum, especially not after Voxx behavior.
That particular set of night actions strongly points to Thor + other MS being the other 2 remaining scum.
Looking everything over, I'm pretty sold/set on Nacho being the final scum. I don't know if I'll be able to make a convincing enough case, but, I'll post one today.
@Vi: The correlation with the long save-my-ass post is legit. Nacho basically has been able to manufacture content when needed at critical points during this game, too.
It's possible Thor+Cyan shot llamarble if Thor wanted it badly enough. He strikes me as overbearing, and while Cyan used to be nearly as aggressive, he's not the same bulldog he used to be. Do you think Thor+Nacho shoot llamarble? I'm going to guess yes?
With the deadline ticking, I'm going to place a vote by the end of the today (Wednesday) and que sera, sera.
I would never have gone along with shooting llamarble as scum, especially not after Voxx behavior.
That particular set of night actions strongly points to Thor + other MS being the other 2 remaining scum.
Looking everything over, I'm pretty sold/set on Nacho being the final scum. I don't know if I'll be able to make a convincing enough case, but, I'll post one today.
oh that's cool
no one saw that coming
why did you decide on vi town?
DYH, please explain why you find me scummy still, despite the fact that Cyan's been coasting hardcore on Llamarble's townread on him. The game shouldn't be given away because "gut"; him being apathetic and lurking is perfectly fine but his thought process actually doesn't make any sort of logical sense whatsoever. I've been doing my absolute best lately railing against scum who has been tight-lipped and won't show any initiative whatsoever although we damn well know he's capable of it; recognize that and do me the favor of looking through my posts one more time and try to see what I'm seeing with Cyan. Please.
A better push D2 would have been the end-Day wagon I chose. Also, hold up.
If I pushed Cyouni and he was lynched instead, Llamarble would probably have shot dC considering the mutual tunnel for most of the game. Freeing him up from dC was a great thing.
Quote from "Nacho 1433" »
I've also haven't made any pushes against people who looked town as hell who needed to be mislynched; the closest that I've come to doing anything like that is the push against Cyan, but I don't think anyone thinks that he looks particularly town at this point, etc.
So Cyan looks Town as hell but doesn't particularly count as Town as hell...? Given that you've been calling Cyan scum (in caps: BIG CYAN PROBLEMS) since early D3, how does that work?
Cyan is the closest to being someone who looks town as hell because of the D1 townreads on him and Llamarble's townread on him. That doesn't mean he's not scum.
If I pushed Cyouni and he was lynched instead, Llamarble would probably have shot dC considering the mutual tunnel for most of the game. Freeing him up from dC was a great thing.
Post hoc justifications aside, you do realize that by that logic "freeing him up from dC" would have done nothing. Also, and let me make sure this is clear, "freeing him up from dC was a great thing" implies that your conscious choice to mislynch desCoures was a good thing.
Cyan is the closest to being someone who looks town as hell
A statement like this is definitely not 'neither here nor there', and when you put it that way, it looks like you're just trying to discredit me without having to actually take a hard line.
That's all I wanted to know. You can go back to being unproductive while I wait for DYH to come back so I can argue the long post with him. He might look at it long enough that I mention "Reasons Nacho should be lynched" at some point.
It's tomorrow. I would like an answer to this, please.
Furthermore, what were you expecting from Vi here, exactly?
Maybe I'm just dense - or losing translation amongst all the pronouns, but can you clarify this point?
He's basically placed a giant shubbery on this post/vote, though. He calls one buddy town, "PoEs" the other on day 1.
I've got some theories on this, but I'm going to withhold them until some of my other questions are resolved.
I'll also cover Vi's review of Cyan once he's responded to the questions directed at him.
What makes you say that?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Isn't it usually FoS?
I can see what you're saying, but etc.
Yesterday, Nacho was highly interested in getting me lynched. This seems highly unlikely for a townie to do. In the situation we were in, clearly Voxx v. Thor needed to be resolved. Over everything else. Trying to work out the 'other' scum when you have an absolutely clear dichotomy is ridiculous. It was either A)bad play or B)scummy play. Given the context of this game, I don't think that 'bad play' should ever be used nor accepted as an argument for someone.
I was expecting him to not just run into the day voting, and I was expecting him(and any townie) to let myself v. Nacho play itself out. Or, if he thinks that I was just going to fail to defend myself and he wanted to just lynch Nacho to avoid the possibility of me losing that argument and getting mislynched, I would expect him to say as much. None of that happened. The way that he just came into the thread voting Nacho looks very, very scummy in my eyes.
I made a pretty minor statement, and he responded with EIGHT posts in a row, trying to create more suspicion against both myself AND Nacho. It comes across awfully.
I'm still trying to parse the 'scumslip' of Nacho's. So, looking back, it certainly appears as though Fate's idea of you being scum happened before he read Iso's stuff, but that was his second post of the game and could have been considered RVS material. Two posts later (92) he's all over Iso and then later switches his vote to Iso (130) saying this:
Nacho is saying that a "Town" Fate would have had his own reasons for thinking you (Vi) to be scum outside of the Iso relationship. So, I might still be dense - not seeing it, other than he took the RVS post seriously? Is that what you're getting at?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I made the point, though, and I think Voxx was urging it as well before the day was cut short that having conversation with a full house made more sense than getting to today and doing it. I don't see anything wrong with Nacho pursuing the idea of finding the second scum yesterday - there was zero chance anyone besides Thor/Voxx was getting lynched.
This is why I asked the question below - do you not recall that I had Vierni atop the scum list yesterday as the most likely candidate? That you expected a you vs. Nacho showdown speaks to a "him or me" mentality that is unsettling.
Sorry, should've been clearer, but I addressed it above. I was asking more about the second part "If I were scum..." line.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Given that you're saying this from a standpoint of 'incredibly likely to be town', I guess that I can't really argue with it. But it still seems like sub-optimal play.
As of yesterday, Nacho was my #1 suspect, and I appeared to be his. Vierni was on my radar, but barely. I also promised Nacho that I would respond to his case on me today, and that was what I was intending to do, and I presumed that you and Vierni, regardless of alignment frankly, would let this occur before making any decisions. So I was pretty taken aback when I came into the thread to see Vierni coming out guns blazing at Nacho.
If I am scum, I would plainly have been setting up yesterday to get a Nacho mislynch today. And accordingly, coming into the thread seeing Vi voting Nacho would have been a home run for me. Why would I rock that boat? It would have been much simpler to just continue on from yesterday, as opposed to trying to take on Vi AND Nacho(a situation I am still clearly going to have to address).
Indifferent to this point.
I'm with you on this one. What I couldn't elaborate on earlier as to why I easily believed Iso was that I was modding a game he and Cyan were playing in. Iso was in the process of "getting into it" again with players in-game (namely AsianInvasion, who was scum FWIW, but there were multiple complaints about the overall tone in the game, itself), and it wasn't the first incident where people have actively said they would avoid playing in games with him.
Given the fact we have "guests", I didn't find it at all hard to believe Iso would be "on his best behavior".
Is this the "honestly" tell of MS? Urban legend here has it that scum are more likely to use that word than townies, since the latter should be telling the truth all the time*. Or is this specific to mindset?
For what it's worth, it was a hard argument to put into words - especially with all the semantics-twisting Thor was doing - but I think the last sentence made it as clear as I could. I'm not as torn up about this point as some of the other ones you make below as a result.
I'm seeing that from your bulleted list.
Cyan needs to address this point.
Along with the point above, Cyan does seem to have a nasty habit of trying to get town PRs killed.
I'm going to pull a dC here and just say Mmhmm for the moment.
See point 1. (Indifferent to application of self-meta to Cyan.)
Isn't Cyan just indirectly saying you surpassed Thor on the townie-meter here?
"Interesting". (That's another MTGS urban scum-hunting legend.) Cyan really has downplayed his mafia skills throughout this game, though.
Coupled with points 6&7 (I think, too lazy to scroll back) this does have a fishing feel to it, but in fairness, the bulk of my defense to Cyan in Day 1 was "leave me alone" because I was annoyed.
Yeah, I'm picking up what you're putting down.
Yeah, the question here becomes "paranoid town Cyan" or "scum gambit Cyan trying to win now". This is a healthy dose of WIFOM and I will say Cyan has the balls to do it, but I wouldn't hold it as a point against him.
Yeah, this is where the meta is giving me heartache, because the above statement is highly accurate given my extensive history with Cyan. I can't deny that's one hell of a coincidence, though, that he played nice with both guys who ended up scum.
Yeah, but it does fit with the consistent downplaying Cyan did of his skills throughout the game.
Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of this, either.
See my questions to him - I'm worried about his mindset as a result, actually.
This is a LOT of stuff. My scumdar readings have shifted around as a result of all this, and ironically enough I'm at the position Cyan was referencing after all. It's very likely either he or Nacho as the last remaining scum, and my brain tells me one, and my gut the other.
I'd like to see Cyan's response to Nacho's case, and Nacho to Vierni.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Cyan 1414
Nacho figuring Thor vs. Voxxicus out - I think everyone, you (Cyan) included, believed Voxxicus the first time and just moved on.
Vi scummy for not watching Nacho vs. Cyan play out - As scum I'd be totes happy with that and just voting the loser, but I'm giving you flack for saying that sort of thing, so let's not use that excuse. Excuse me for not conforming to your predefined beliefs of what's scummy and what's not, then. Given the circumstances of a four-player LyLo there's nothing actually scummy about it - quite the opposite, actually, as voting first in LyLo is generally seen as a disadvantage (how can I quickhammer Nacho? and for that matter, is DYH going to vote Cyan?).
Vi made eight posts - Spoilers: Not all of that was directed at you. It was a roundabout way of answering Nacho, actually. "Did you do Voxxicus' suggested reading overNight?" "He told us to read? ...so he did. Should I? ...meh, may as well. Ooh this is interesting. Oh wow I didn't realize Cyan looked THIS bad." etc.
----------------------
DYH 1415
I've still not seen process of elimination used to only clear one scum, is what I'm saying.
As I'm pretty sure I mentioned or insinuated before there's nothing in Fate's posts to suggest why I would be scum, and I had to drag an answer out of Nacho because I had to be the third person to ask the question you saw quoted (Nacho answered the wrong question the previous times). That aside, the gist of the point I'm making is that Nacho felt a need to specify that Fate as Town would have a reason, without regard for Fate as scum.
That said, looking back that was post 146 and Nacho thinking Fate was scum started at 188, so one could plausibly say that Nacho started with the default assumption that Nacho thought Fate was playing his usual Town game.
----------------------
Cyan 1417
Cyan-scum rocking the proverbial boat over Vi voting Nacho - It's not a home run because it's four-player LyLo and you need to keep the ruse up until DYH votes.
----------------------
DYH 1418
3) "to be honest" tell - I actually know who started this; it was curiouskarmadog, semifamous unusable shift key person, and he said some time after the fact that he made the "tell" up as scum to push a mislynch and hated how it had caught on. I'm not going to chase that.
What I -am- going to chase is Cyan pushing for Nacho to claim because he "deserves" it. This is far more often than not a scum move, a move to punish a poor Town player for poor play (and indirectly reward the far superior player speaking who happens to be scum). Get the difference? A Town player wants to lynch someone for being scum, and a scum player wants to lynch someone for being a bad player. The only times you will see a Town player talk about "deserving" are:
a) in LyLo when saying that someone "deserves" the win more (the theory of this is debatable)
b) when dealing with a village idiot that they would rather lynch than try to parse the alignment of because they are a danger to everyone around them
and I firmly believe that b) is not the case here because this is an invitational game and while I don't know if Nacho has played here before Cyan has no grounds to believe that Nacho is persistently a bad player who should not have been invited to an invitational game to start with.
Yes I did just finish watching an episode of Penn & Teller.
4) Cyan defending iPad Thor and going after DYH - Fair enough. I still wanted to note the Thor defense. Also, seriously, posting from an iPad? I think phoneposting is wildly impractical, so etc. *shrug* I will probably be one of the last people on earth to still use a desktop computer.
5) Defense of Fate and Thor - Journalistic honesty: defense of Thor and Fate together was common from more than just Cyan if memory serves.
10) Vanishing solid Town read on Thor - Indirectly, yes, Cyan did say my Towniness surpassed Thor's. I'm going to put a medieval-style halo behind Altaria's head. But that's not the point. Somehow somewhere Cyan got a scummish read on Thor (not quoted) and no one's really sure how.
11) Cyan's response to desCoures' case against him - Again, "interesting" is not the word I'm pursuing. If I had a feather for every "...hmm." and "...mmm." desCoures and Voxxicus put up in this game that caused me to twitch, I'd be even fluffier. Cyan's first line looks like "caught for the right reasons", and not in the way that desCoures did it when I confronted him about Fate. The attack on desCoures is a feeble attempt to save face by pushing back on the person making the case and I believe that was called out at the time.
14) Cyan's motive WIFOM - I think we can safely rule out Cyan trying for the quick win given the list of "why as scum would I expose myself" responses we've gotten from him. A lot of his posts look pro-scum given post hoc alignment knowledge; I'm actually kind of impressed with how he's been able to weave in lines that hurt the Town and never got sufficiently called. I don't think the Voxxicus-Thor decision would have been as protracted without Cyan's involvement.
I will be extremely surprised if Iso maintains this 'new playstyle' beyond this game(or at least this series of games w/ MS)
I'm tired of sitting around watching people get away with scummy behavior 'because that is how they are'. I have gone back to my old mentality of "shape up or ship out", effectively. This part of my mindset is not going to change regardless of alignment.
I pretty clearly just missed the post where KoL claimed Doc, as someone pointed out shortly after this to me(I believe it was Voxx, but it might have been Cyouni). I mean like..are you really arguing that I saw a Doc claim and knowingly tried to get the guy lynched? That is absurd.
I don't even know what 'trying to project his own notions of what looks scummy onto other people here' is supposed to mean. I can't parse that sentence any way that makes sense.
Around the time that this game started, I also started another game that I got a 'special invite' to, on another site. I was really out of my element(Their day phases were always exactly 48 hours long, night was 12 hours, etc) and I got vigged as scum N1. It forced me to look at the perspective that I might not be as good at mafia as I thought, and maybe that our site is just really bad, but I'm not quite as bad as everyone else. It's pretty depressing.
Everyone that is even a little bit capable at this game is self-aware. This is a nonsense point.
There was no reason NOT to NL yesterday. The scum would just have killed Voxx and then we'd have lynched Thor. This would have helped us avoid the corner case scenario where DYH is a Godfather, because he wouldn't be able to explain being alive the next day.
This game has just been a mixture of frustation and 'complete lack of fun' for me. I haven't been able to muster any kind of enthusiasm for it, despite the fact that I should feel flattered to be involved. I just hate the way that MS players approach the game. Their methodology might even be better than ours, but I still greatly dislike it. I hate reading through so many posts of nonsense/non-explanations(even when asked) to try and find something that I can agree with/disagree with.
--
"I would never do that! Because that would look scummy." (or in this case the inverse)
--
Vouched.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs069dndIYk
do you remember
the case that i posted yesterday
The same day 1 where I was wrong about Iso, wrong about KoL, didn't notice AF acting like scum? How could I not be gunshy afterwards? And I don't get 'scum fatigue'.
I just addressed some of this. As for why I didn't attack Fade early, he wasn't really posting. Compared to many others, who were A)posting and B)being scummy in the process.
I wouldn't say that I 'buddied up' to the MTGSers at all. I went after DYH and Iso Day 1. And I went after you and KoL because your posts read to me as scummy. It had nothing to do with your level of content, and nowhere do I recall saying anything of the sort. also, you appear to be contradicting yourself here, accusing me of giving MSers slack at the same time of accusing me of attacking you and KoL and giving MTGSers slack. So which is it?
I have alot of history with DYH, and I felt bad that I was apparently wrong about him AND wrong about Thor while he was simultaneously right about Thor.
Ultimately, this game has apparently solidified a concern that I had. I can't read people from your site at all, because your general approach to the game infuriates me. You all post tons of nonsense, and everyone has to read all of it because somewhere buried in it is some relevant content. I played 2 games at MS years ago(Wheel of Time and some other one) and they were the same way, and I hated it. And apparently nothing has changed. I thought that Thor and Vierni were town Day 1 because they had meaningful things to say in a way that could be easily parsed.
dC was the best lynch for yesterday, unfortunately. I wanted to give him room based on Cyouni being the other good option but that being a tired bandwagon + slight doubts coupled with your doubts. Thor and Cyan both were pretty solidly townreads.
Fate usually defends me when he's scum and I'm town; I do the same for him. We expect accurate reads EVENTUALLY, and both are fans of calling people town to give people false reassurance and then 180'ing the hell out of them.
Thor buddied the **** out of me; he defended me especially when I began to back him up on Iso; I don't think my early townread on Thor was weird because Thor is a god of scum.
I'll also use this space to bring up again how CYAN defended FATE for no reason. He doesn't have the extensive history Fate and I have so it's not like he naturally wants to townread him or something. I also sat my ass down on Fate for a pretty long time despite other juicy mislynch options available; I'm sure if Thor and I were calling him town and I was citing juicy ~meta~ reasons, we'd get away with directing the lynch somewhere else.
1)
Notice how he's complaining about MS's playstyles now despite meshing so well with some of us in the beginning. Even his apathy isn't consistent.
The situation of Voxx v. Thor was a situation that was resolved pretty solidly in favor of Thor-scum when I decided there probably wasn't a framer in the game. I like talking to people while they go down (usually) even if I think they're scum as **** because sometimes townies who are about to be mislynched say some really really town things and sometimes scum say some interesting things they shouldn't. Check out this quote from Xenoblade:
Usually people don't like being wrong, so when they get three reads wrong they don't give up completely. Everyone mislynches, everyone has scum dodge them. Why does that mean it's game over for you?
KoL wasn't posting really.
I wasn't posting really.
You attacked both of us and didn't have a problem with it at all. You also TOWNREAD Fate early. It's not like you ignored him, you townread him. Why?
MSers, sorry. I think you were buddying up to MSers mostly because Thor and Fate were your scumbuddies and Llamarble was strongly reading you as town. You made a quote about how you enjoyed MS playstyles (same post where you attacked MTGSers), which I thought was buddying with MSers.
Wheel of Time sure as hell wasn't the same way? You had 50-50 scumreads, the game was no reveal and had a ****ton of scum in them and you ended up voting for a large portion of them and getting nightkilled. This game is a normal setup, logic lately seems to be pretty okay and pretty relevant (you sure as hell aren't attacking much of it), and your townread on Fate is even weirder because he didn't have meaningful things to say in a way that could be easily parsed, did he?
If you mean me, when did I stop?
If you mean Fate, when did he start?
Please back this up.
(Also if memory serves Kinetic's Wheel of Time was such a complex game that etc.)
A)I wanted to lynch you and KoL Day 1, because of your scummy playstyle. I was trying to give the general 'MS approach' the benefit of the doubt, because of the context of this game.
"Usually people don't like being wrong, so, when they're wrong a bunch they..continue to risk being wrong again" is essentially what you are saying here. Which makes no sense. This is also compounded with A)me being wrong about a townie(or 2) during the same timeframe in the game DYH was running and B)the invitiational game I was playing in where I got completely blown out. So I really didn't have much self-confidence at that point.
You were both posting plenty, and your entire posting style was/is scummy. I think that the way that you are trying to blend yourself in with a dead townie here reflects very poorly upon you.
AF wasn't really saying much, and what he was saying didn't come across as overtly scummy to me. All of the initial votes against AF were from MS players. Nobody from MTGS went along with voting him, according to the vote count, until very late into his wagon/with an imminent deadline. You are making an accusation against me here, while ignoring the fact that multiple dead/confirmed town + DYH(likely town) acted the same way.
I think you are misunderstanding/misconstruing what I was saying there.
I'm surprised that you remember anything about that game. I certainly don't, except that it made me dislike the entire MS environment.
I'm not saying that your approach to the game is bad or anything like that, it's just not fun for me. And I'm not playing up anything, that is not how I act. This game has been completely miserable for me, to the point that I'm not sure I even want to play in the next one.
@Vierni: I don't know if you stopped or not. I'm still trying to work up the motivation to re-read you and Nacho and figure out which one of you I think is the last scum.
I don't think it ever felt like it was going to materialize into anything. I believe even Cyan, himself, indicated what unlikely parameters would need to have been met in order for Voxx to have been running a gambit there.
I agree with what you're saying on all other points.
At this point, I really just need Cyan to put in the effort he's alluding to above.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Vierni
Voxxicus
DYH
llamarble
Cyan
Nacho
Thor
Cyouni
llamarble was confirmed Town and confirmed Vig. Voxxicus had a negative result on DYH with ~some power~.
Would, based on what is probably Role Cop + Goonx2, M:tGS have expected the info role to be a greater threat? A scummer may consider an info role in that case to be one-shot, especially considering the Doctor - on mafiascum this setup would be considered more Town-sided than average (what if the Gunsmith claimed D1 and the game became about hunting the Doctor? Honestly I'm kind of surprised follow-the-cop isn't somewhat standard).
More importantly, if llamarble were alive and Voxxicus were NKd, that would leave (assuming Cyouni getting shot was a given, though he said "Nacho/Thor/Cyouni have arguments" in 1180)
Vierni - TOWN
llamarble - TOWN
Cyan - TOWN
DYH - TOWN
Thor
Nacho
from llamarble's point of view. (1177 and various posts before)
What I'm asking is whether M:tGS would have always killed the info role in that situation based on standard site balance.
Can you explain this YOLOnacho or whatever you called it?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Xenoblade Mafia, end of Day 1. Read my interactions with 2.
You didn't answer the other part of the question.
Interactions, mostly.
When I turned to bussing I was pretty vocal on it (last minute case on DeasVail). My read on Fate was an early vote followed by telling Llamarble that he should do some rereading on Fate and rethink his read, whereas I'm pretty sure I didn't pull anything like that in #YOLOville. My talk with Thor is also interesting, doesn't really seem like a Nacho-scum move unless I thought that generating four pages of interactions with my partner at the end of the day when he's pretty much confirmed scum was a good idea for some reason. I've also haven't made any pushes against people who looked town as hell who needed to be mislynched; the closest that I've come to doing anything like that is the push against Cyan, but I don't think anyone thinks that he looks particularly town at this point, etc. I also don't see why my following you that closely bothers you as much as it does.
I'm not claiming to be master of vi meta anywhere? You-scum in this game would be pulling off a pretty good game that I haven't seen you pull off anywhere else. Do you disagree with that statement?
Hmmm. It doesn't seem like you were trying to give them the benefit of the doubt; it seems like you legitimately thought they were town. Or am I having trouble reading something here?
How long have you been playing mafia?
Voxxicus found Fate and I both scummy.
DYH compromised from Thor onto Fate pretty quickly.
dC said was lynching Iso, but said that "Fate should be shot by Llamarble or Llamarble should be lynched the next day".
Cyouni's suspects were Llamarble, Thor, and Fate.
You were the one who didn't have Fate as a suspect. In fact, in #761, you imply that he's actively looking for scum for no apparent reason.
This game is pretty much loaded with quote stripes - some of which I'm sure were legitimate two-line queries and many more of which were pretty much useless - and never actually went anywhere. Then sometime mid-late in Day 1 he pulled out this lengthy post that stood at such a complete contrast that it probably bought him a day's survival on its own. This is pretty much the same game he has played here.
Contrast HunterxHunterxMafia (which I mentioned Day 1) where
he did the heavy lifting and I just called obvscumwe worked together Day 1. Going from one game to the other, the difference in posting style is pretty obvious.Also I saw Nacho's new avvy on 'scum and almost literally screamed.
I don't see a reason why Nacho's push on Day 3 and Day 4 wouldn't be home-stretch LyLo play.
As for shooting Voxxicus vs. shooting llamarble, I'd remind you that at the end of D2, Voxxicus looked... really weak. He dodged a noose by making a nebulous softclaim and not really not acting scummy. It wouldn't be out of the question for him to be overrun if he didn't get that positive result on Thor. In the meantime - would Cyan+Thor have shot llamarble?
---
I see no need to. One game does not make for a pattern.
Also, I'm so devastatingly obvTown right now that I don't even have to say it for people to just generally believe it, even at LyLo. Except for Cyan.
desCoures.
Although in this case it just means that DYH dies and we waffle for a while longer.
It's possible Thor+Cyan shot llamarble if Thor wanted it badly enough. He strikes me as overbearing, and while Cyan used to be nearly as aggressive, he's not the same bulldog he used to be. Do you think Thor+Nacho shoot llamarble? I'm going to guess yes?
With the deadline ticking, I'm going to place a vote by the end of the today (Wednesday) and que sera, sera.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Except as that scumgame, I didn't make that giant wallpost as a response to pressure. I made that end of day 1 wallpost so that I would have a good amount of towncred going into the next day. I made a giant wallpost here because I was getting a lot of pressure and I figured the transparency switch needed to be flipped.
When suspects yesterday were desCoures/Cyouni/Thor, my thought process was pretty clear. Who would have been a better push? Cyouni?
---
In re: transparency - One would think that that's something scum are more likely to do.
A better push D2 would have been the end-Day wagon I chose. Also, hold up. So Cyan looks Town as hell but doesn't particularly count as Town as hell...? Given that you've been calling Cyan scum (in caps: BIG CYAN PROBLEMS) since early D3, how does that work?
---
Cyan is lurking.
I would never have gone along with shooting llamarble as scum, especially not after Voxx behavior.
That particular set of night actions strongly points to Thor + other MS being the other 2 remaining scum.
Looking everything over, I'm pretty sold/set on Nacho being the final scum. I don't know if I'll be able to make a convincing enough case, but, I'll post one today.
If Vi is scum, so be it. Well-played.
Vote: Nacho
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
oh that's cool
no one saw that coming
why did you decide on vi town?
If I pushed Cyouni and he was lynched instead, Llamarble would probably have shot dC considering the mutual tunnel for most of the game. Freeing him up from dC was a great thing.
Cyan is the closest to being someone who looks town as hell because of the D1 townreads on him and Llamarble's townread on him. That doesn't mean he's not scum.
What I really mean to say to whichever of you two is Town is .
I don't feel confident enough about Cyan to follow your vote, so I'm going to let the deadline lapse.
Deadline is tomorrow night, though, not tonight.
Cyan's lack of effort here is pretty annoying because I think I'm right.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Like I am literally split 45/35/20(Nacho/Vi/DYH), and I don't want to cast my vote when it's that close.
I didn't realize that the deadline was tomorrow though, that is awfully soon for a day that started like a week ago.