MTG Salvation

I think I would go so far as to say that Meta doesn't accurately determine alignments, but it does frame mindsets to allow other evidence to determine their alignment.

The real lesson to be learned here is that DRey is always, always town.

Quote from DYH

Quote from DRey

I think to discern new players real scumtells from bogus ones is an art. I know ZDS is pretty spot on those things but there are some tells that are quite universal given new players.

I remember that after trying to chain lynches on two players in my first game(final fantasy) I was slammed into the ground pretty quickly and correctly by DYH, geez, DYH was quite a good townie in that game, he caught me so easily.

LOL!

/scumteam high-five bus drive!

I still regret not attacking you that night. I think it is the action I most regret not taking in all my time playing, as I was right Soylent Green is peop... I mean you were scum. And I could've gotten away with it if I only killed you.

I have more interesting concepts for my next Mafia project. Would anyone be willing to help me hammer out another role design?

Sure, shoot me a PM.

/basically a giant barn of ZDS

But I will address the first point in a little more detail:

In general, I don't think enough thought is put into why people were NKed here on MTGS, to be honest. From a personal anecdotal standpoint see Survival Horror and Xyre's Redux (invitational) - I was killed N1 in both games for being suspicious of scum (AI and Cyan, respectively).

As ZDS said though, the scum always have reason for killing who they do, and sometimes it's in search of a power role, or even WIFOM. It's been my experience that in the earlier stages of the game, they're trying to eliminate people who pose the largest threat to them in the thread. Later on, they're trying to avoid PoE (eliminating power roles, or those they suspect are) and sowing confusion (WIFOM).

Speaking of WIFOM, I got thinking about it the other day. I always see WIFOM treated like moldy meat that needs to thrown out as soon as it's recognized, as though the presence of WIFOM means there's a 50% chance that the "poison" is in one glass and a 50% chance that it's in the other glass. But...WIFOM can't always be 50/50.

Example: going into a Night you have an unclaimed doc, a claimed and cleared cop, and an unclaimed townie who's a skilled player and is generally a strong town read for the rest of the town. The last two are far and away the town's two most valuable players (i.e. in the mind of the mafia one of them has to die): which of them does the mafia kill? It wants to kill the cop, but "a doc may protect the cop." So then it wants to kill the other townie, but "a doc may realize we'd think 'a doc may protect the cop' and protect the other townie." So then it wants to kill the cop again, but "a doc may realize we'd think 'a doc may realize we'd think 'a doc may protect the cop' and protect the other townie' and protect the cop." Ad nauseum. So the NK decision is riddled with WIFOM -- but at the same time there's a very good chance (less than 100%, but greater than 50%) that the doc will protect the cop and the other townie would be safe to kill.

So, the way I see it, getting into a WIFOM mindset is important to realize that there are alternatives to an obvious conclusion ("he obviously put the poison in my glass if he wants me to drink it"), but that doesn't change the fact that those alternatives may not occur with the same frequency.

Am I off base here or is WIFOM not a bogeyman?

In that situation, I would kill the Doc.

If you drink all the wine and see what happens youll probably learn something or die.

That's my mafia theory on WIFOM.

Guardman's thoughts on WIFOM.

1. Claim one-shot vig.
2. N1 shoot the claimed neutral.
3. Boosts the doc's ego by making him think he has had good protects.
4. Profit.

I'm intrigued by this whole thing but have never played... what kind of time investment are we talking about here to get through a game and how regularly are check ins needed?

Thanks in advance!

It's best to post at least once every 2 days (though more is generally regarded as "good"), and games can last anywhere between 2 weeks and 6 months.

Games will last anywhere from 2 Months to about a year depending on the type of game.

Basics last the least amount of time normally while Specialties/FTQ's can last for 5 Months+

As for checking the game. It's best to check on a daily basis, but you are required to post at least 72 hours for most games. If not 72 hours, then 48 hours.

If you want to try a game out, then please Sign Up for the Player Contact List here

Nath'd by Iso...

I think I can handle that - I can be a pretty regular poster - just wanted to make sure that if I go on vacation or something that it wouldn't be an issue. But it seems paced slowly enough to allow for that.

Thanks for the responses!

Try a basic to see if you can adapt. It's really hard to gauge how much time does mafia require since each player is so different. Some players are overwhelmed with one game while others can play 4 just fine.

If you find yourself not enjoying it just ask to replace out, just don't start playing in more than one game at a time because "geez this game is too slow for my tastes, I can certainly play in two more". I say you stick with just one until you successfully finish your first one.

Quote from Iso

In that situation, I would kill the Doc.

I assume the situation calls for an unclaimed doc.

Quote from Guardman

Guardman's thoughts on WIFOM.

1. Claim one-shot vig.
2. N1 shoot the claimed neutral.
3. Boosts the doc's ego by making him think he has had good protects.
4. Profit.

When has that actually worked for you?

Quote from AsianInvasion

When has that actually worked for you?

If you aren't joking and haven't read BSG...well normally I'd say "go read BSG" but it's probably best that you don't.

Quote from Guardman

Guardman's thoughts on WIFOM.

1. Claim one-shot vig.
2. N1 shoot the claimed neutral.
3. Boosts the doc's ego by making him think he has had good protects.
4. Profit.

I approve of this plan. :D:thumbsup:

What's more powerful of the following 2?

A mafia member who can't be Watched/seen as a target of someone being Tracked?

or

A mafia member who can't be seen targeting a Watcher target/Tracked?

I'm obviously leaning towards the latter, but the former seems like it would be a good tool for painting PRs as liars.

wat

Please rephrase your question.

The second option. It gives the mafia member way more latitude to commit their evil deeds.

Edit: In fact, the second one gives the mafia a chance to frame town PRs. If some PR targets the same as the mafia, and the watcher see this, they'll have to assume the PR was responsible.

Rephrasing:

Iso,

You are Iso, Mafia Ninja. If you would be seen targeting a player by a Watcher or Tracker, you will instead not be seen targeting that player.

-or-

Iso,

You are Iso, Mafia Escapist. If a player targets you with an ability, a Watcher or Tracker will instead not see that player targeting you.

Ninjas are traditionally very strong.
This hypothetical Escapist role just seems kind of useless. It has the potential to confuse the town in LyLo when everyone claims their targets and two townies think the other is a liar, but that's not at all a fun or interesting way for the mafia to win a game.

Is that any different from Townie A saying, "I saw Mafia B target no one last Night, there is one scum left, and there was still a kill"?

Quote from Iso

Is that any different from Townie A. saying, "I saw Mafia B target no one last Night, there is one scum left, and there was still a kill"?

The point of the Ninja role is that it is invisible, which is relevant at all stages of the game. It is also a role that is uncommon, but common enough that players should expect to play around it.
A role whose sole purpose is to trick the town into mislynching at LyLo and does nothing else (if the town isn't publicly coordinating actions) is just plain bad design.

Godfather with the only uninvestigated player being a townie?

I just feel like it's asinine to limit design space to commonly expected roles if they serve the same function, just in a different way.

Quote from Iso

Godfather with the only uninvestigated player being a townie?

I just feel like it's asinine to limit design space to commonly expected roles if they serve the same function, just in a different way.

When your creative mafia role serves the same function as a stock mafia role only in specific situations, at which point the town is going to lose if they aren't playing around the specific situation, you probably want that specific situation to be something the town has a reasonable chance of expecting, so they actually have a shot at winning.
What your hypothetical mafia role does is make that chance close enough to zero that the role is just unfun; because optimal play is generally to only claim non-incriminating track/watch results at L-2/LyLo, the mafia role either does nothing or it results in two townies pointing fingers at each other, often resulting in one, if not two mislynches.

Here's another way to look at it: A mafia Ninja getting away with a kill is cool because you get the sense that the player used his or her role effectively to get away with murder. A mafia Escapist who sits there and gets investigated and watched will probably result in the cop and/or watcher getting mislynched, without actually having to lift a finger.

I just don't see how that's different from "you're clear, I investigated you", but maybe there's just a disconnect in mindset, here. I'll take your word for it, though, and put some more thought into my role ideas.

Quote from Iso

I just don't see how that's different from "you're clear, I investigated you", but maybe there's just a disconnect in mindset, here. I'll take your word for it, though, and put some more thought into my role ideas.

The roles are similar on paper, but they are different in how each role plays out in the context of an actual game.
It helps to think of various scenarios and realistic outcomes one might expect when theory-crafting and tinkering with new roles.

What kind of power would that be balanced to offset, do you think? Or would that depend on the setup?

Quote from Iso

I just don't see how that's different from "you're clear, I investigated you", but maybe there's just a disconnect in mindset, here. I'll take your word for it, though, and put some more thought into my role ideas.

Part of it is that Godfathers are such a common role that players can expect to have to play around them. Ninjas, while less common, are at least straightforward and known to exist. The Escapist, players have no way of expecting or predicting, because it's such a weird, random ability.

Godfathers exist to counterbalance the power of a cop. Ninjas usually exist to counterbalance a town's potential Unbeatable Plan. The Escapist...doesn't seem to balance anything. I mean, were it a common role, it would make watchers and trackers question their results a little bit more, but personally I don't think that's a good thing. They're not roles that need to be nerfed, and even if they were, there are better ways to do it imo.

Distinguishing between "visiting" and "choosing" is useful. Trackers visit a player each night and learn whom that player visits. Ninjas choose a player to kill instead of visiting. An Escapist essentially converts being visited to being chosen. It's definitely narrow.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

I do think a town version of the same role could be an okay town role (or an okay drawback for a town role). It's a townie the mafia can NK without fear of being watched. In terms of power it would be somewhere between Miller and Vanilla.

Ooh, the flavor being that no one liked that guy, so people are willing to look the other way if he winds up dead! It would probably have to be a hidden ability, or the townie would just claim and then never be the target of watchers. But then again, the scum would know that he's an easy kill, protective abilities aside.

I can think of some clever roles to make use of such a drawback.

Yeah, I like the idea of using this as a Miller variant to offset some PR.

Quote from swishh

Distinguishing between "visiting" and "choosing" is useful. Trackers visit a player each night and learn whom that player visits. Ninjas choose a player to kill instead of visiting. An Escapist essentially converts being visited to being chosen. It's definitely narrow.

I don't understand the difference here.
A Ninja may "choose" to kill someone but he still visits them to kill them. The tracker just doesn't "see" it.

You're needlessly complicating something that is simple.
Trying to justify roles through standard real life Mafia flavor is not going to help anyone understand anything.

So, I know there are "donation" types of roles, but are there "donation" JoaTs? Like, a townie who could donate one of the following on each night:

1 dayshot
1 docshot
1 track

etc etc?

Never seen such a role, but I like it very much, much weaker than a natural JOAT though.

Yes. They are called Inventors.

Thanks Iso. Is it exclusively town, or sometimes scum for WIFOM purposes?

If he gives vig shots it's exclusively town(unless some heavy balancing is done because the scum are getting a vig shot) otherwise could be seen either way.

Quote from DRey

If he gives vig shots it's exclusively town(unless some heavy balancing is done because the scum are getting a vig shot) otherwise could be seen either way.

There was a mafia role in Powerful Wizards that could give vig shots to townies. They elected not to use it for fear of shooting themselves in the foot (pun totally intended).

Take a look at Smalltown Animaniacs for an example of the Inventor role.

Quote from AsianInvasion

There was a mafia role in Powerful Wizards that could give vig shots to townies. They elected not to use it for fear of shooting themselves in the foot (pun totally intended).

This too, meaning if he can only give vig shots for townies the role can be mafia, and it's a pretty elegant design imho. High risk high reward.

Quote from LnGrrrR

Thanks Iso. Is it exclusively town, or sometimes scum for WIFOM purposes?

I cannot see an inventor having a point at all for mafia unless it's like the above examples. They could donate over and over to their buddies, and until one of the buddies flips, it wouldn't be suspicious.

Quote from TK-421

Quote from LnGrrrR

Thanks Iso. Is it exclusively town, or sometimes scum for WIFOM purposes?

I cannot see an inventor having a point at all for mafia unless it's like the above examples. They could donate over and over to their buddies, and until one of the buddies flips, it wouldn't be suspicious.

Hm... What about an Inventor that had the following caveat?

"You are an Inventor. Once per night, you may donate a power to any player. If you try to donate a power to anyone that is Mafia, that action will succeed, but that Mafia member will not actually receive that power."

Your powers to donate are as follows:
1x Docshot
1x Vigshot
1x Copshot

----------------

Those are all powers that scum could claim to have, but it might prevent some swinginess.

Also, would making the Inventor neutral take some of the fun out of it?

Quote from LnGrrrR

Hm... What about an Inventor that had the following caveat?

"You are an Inventor. Once per night, you may donate a power to any player. If you try to donate a power to anyone that is Mafia, that action will succeed, but that Mafia member will not actually receive that power."

Seems like it turns it into a bonus investigative role (give ableys to scum, scum fails to produce results, lynch).

Quote from TK-421

Quote from LnGrrrR

Thanks Iso. Is it exclusively town, or sometimes scum for WIFOM purposes?

I cannot see an inventor having a point at all for mafia unless it's like the above examples. They could donate over and over to their buddies, and until one of the buddies flips, it wouldn't be suspicious.

Actually on Xylbot, we had a few variants of Inventor, one was town only, while another could be town or scum, but instead of being able to choose the target, it chose it at random and it was used automatically. There was also a third that only gave 0% abilities.

We also had a gifter variant that would autogive players protective abilities (Santa) or one shot kills only (Devil.) Usually the player who had the role would not know if they were an actual Santa or a devil (reason it is santa as opposed to Angel is because the bot already had an angel role.)