Once per Night, you may target a player. All abilities that player uses on the Night you target them will fail. All abilities that target that player on the Night you target them will fail. However, if that player is targeted with a kill, you will die.
Once per Night, you may target a player. If you are targeted with a kill on a Night you use this ability, you will not be killed. If the player you target is killed on the Night you target them, you will also die.
Once per Night, you may target a player. If you are targeted with a kill on the Night you target a player, the player you target that night will die, instead.
Once per Night, you may target a player. That player will have 2 votes until the end of the Day. You may not target the same player twice.
Are roles like these acceptable in a Basic? What about a Normal? Would a Neighborizour (limited shot or otherwise) be an okay role in a Basic? What about roles that die when they target scum?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
But, if I can find them in the MS Wiki, are any of these acceptable roles? I'm sure I'm not the first person who's thought of them.
I think they are all ok, but very limited: the difference between them and their more regular counterpart (bodyguard/jailer, redirecting/bus driver variants, and vote giving) are all prety small, and it would make sense to bump them up. As an aside, I really hate double votes in basics, because they suck (do nothing at all except comfirm a player as town and maybe make a day end marginally earlier, possibly screw up LyLo).
I don't think a role necessarily has to exist in MSW to be legal (and there a good number that are in it that shouldn't be legal), you should just be aware that it is probably a good idea to move the role from an orignal and highly restrictive one to a more common and barely different in power level one.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Once per Night, you may target a player. All abilities that player uses on the Night you target them will fail. All abilities that target that player on the Night you target them will fail. However, if that player is targeted with a kill, you will die.
perfectly fine in my book for a basic. It is basically a Jailkeeper with the added cavet of being a bodyguard.
Once per Night, you may target a player. If you are targeted with a kill on a Night you use this ability, you will not be killed. If the player you target is killed on the Night you target them, you will also die.
Slightly modified Hider/coward role right here. Again perfectly fine. You could upgrade it to have it modify all actions most likely without it being game breaking.
Once per Night, you may target a player. If you are targeted with a kill on the Night you target a player, the player you target that night will die, instead.
Modified twin role, Again see no problems with the role, though you COULD go a bit more powerful and make it redirect all abilities to target player. I would be more apt to place this on a scum role however.
Once per Night, you may target a player. That player will have 2 votes until the end of the Day. You may not target the same player twice.
Ahh, what we call the Motivator on IRC. THIS one may be a bit iffy in a basic setup, but perfectly fine as is in a Normal. Making it limited shot also balances the role a bit more.
Would a Neighborizour (limited shot or otherwise) be an okay role in a Basic? What about roles that die when they target scum?
As for the neighborizer, I can see it working in a basic as a limited shot ability. In a normal have fun making it unlimited. Modified a bit to where they die if they kill non town would be a masonizer. Again, limited shot in a basic, unlimited in a normal is acceptable.
Why is the concept of a scum doublevoter so foreign?
Because they do nothing until they win the game for scum a day earlier than the town expected. Surprise scum wins when you expect to be in Lynch Or Lose are really lame.
Why is the concept of a scum doublevoter so foreign?
Because they do nothing until they win the game for scum a day earlier than the town expected. Surprise scum wins when you expect to be in Lynch Or Lose are really lame.
The problem with never having a scum double-voter is that you essentially give all future double-voters a free pass within the MTGS metagame. Because there are never scum double-voters, the double-voter in your game must be town, or maybe a neutral. Don't you think that's more damaging than a "surprise" scum win?
The problem with this thinking is that the other option (having scum double voters) is much worse than having people be confirmed by being proven double voter.
Seriously this is not a big problem, some roles are exclusively scum, other town, this is not a bug, it's a feature. Mods must take this into account when balancing games though. Town double voter is also to be considered an information role (an innocent child really).
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Why is the concept of a scum doublevoter so foreign?
Because they do nothing until they win the game for scum a day earlier than the town expected. Surprise scum wins when you expect to be in Lynch Or Lose are really lame.
The problem with never having a scum double-voter is that you essentially give all future double-voters a free pass within the MTGS metagame. Because there are never scum double-voters, the double-voter in your game must be town, or maybe a neutral. Don't you think that's more damaging than a "surprise" scum win?
To be honest, I'll am unlikely to use a double voter in one of my games, regardless of alignment. I don't think it's a particularly excting role that adds anything to the game: I consider a straight up +1 vote to be an "I am confirmed town" button. It doesn't really do anything else apart from end a day marginally ealier and mean that the bearer has sole power in a 3-man endgame. Now I say "unlikely" because I can always be persuaded that a game needs a double voter, even if it's just as a confirmed town dude, or as some kind of foil for a 1 town, 1 scum, 1 SK endgame. In addition, there is plenty of design space around it: you can donate (or bequeath) votes, accrue votes through completing tasks, alternate between no vote/two votes, have a limited number of second votes, can't put 2 votes on the same player, or anything you can really think of. As long as it is balanced and can feasibly exist on any alignment (in a way I don't think a straight +1 vote can) then it can be used, and might even occurr in a game of mine.
In any case, people are welcome to ty and game me. Just remember that I put a town roleblocker in a basic game: that was somewhat unprecedented.
I also don't really think that using a role that can end the game a day earlier than anyone is expecting is an accetpable price to pay to avoid a " very likely town" role becoming " virtually auto town". Double voting is not so fun or useful that it outweighs the incredibly lameness of losing without seeing it coming. I would certainly choose "no double voters" to "frequent scum double voters".
EDIT: DRey basically covered my stance in fewer words.
Why is the concept of a scum doublevoter so foreign?
Because they do nothing until they win the game for scum a day earlier than the town expected. Surprise scum wins when you expect to be in Lynch Or Lose are really lame.
The problem with never having a scum double-voter is that you essentially give all future double-voters a free pass within the MTGS metagame. Because there are never scum double-voters, the double-voter in your game must be town, or maybe a neutral. Don't you think that's more damaging than a "surprise" scum win?
I had a scum double-voter in Amistarian II, albeit she had to give up NK protection in order to use it, and the way the game played out it was irrelevant.
Quote from TFF"s role PM »
Dominick, Azzyrian Godfather:
Twenty years you have patiently waited for the perfect time to strike,
and finally it has come! The Red Faction is in shambles, rebellion is
afoot, and the puppets of Amistar have no idea your small strike force
has arrived.
You are the most tenured soldier the Azzyrian army has to offer.
Battle-mages, they call you. But not only are you a grizzled war
veteran, you are also an adept politician.
Abilities:
Iron Hide - A spell you personally developed, this incantation
protects you from death during the night. You may use it only on
yourself. [mod note: protects against all kills and Poison].
Empowered Voice (burnout) - This spell will grant you a permanent
double vote (your vote will count twice, it may not be split and will
appear in the vote count as 2 votes). You may not perform any other
action in conjunction with a Burnout, and use of this ability will
render you vanilla the rest of the game.
Win Condition: Make it so that no other faction can win.
* * * * * *
It can be done, but you need to account for the swinginess that comes with it. The group size can be reduced by one, but if the scum loses the double-voter, it's obviously a huge blow. (The other mafia had the infamous traitor scum to "balance" them out. Dammit, Ged.)
I prefer the way Bateleur did it in Court Mafia, even though I basically enacted the strategy Zionite brings up here. Day one I had multiple votes (three, I think?), so I made sure to let everyone know it and get myself 'cleared' as town, claiming they were "stolen" later, IIRC.
Why is the concept of a scum doublevoter so foreign?
Because they do nothing until they win the game for scum a day earlier than the town expected. Surprise scum wins when you expect to be in Lynch Or Lose are really lame.
The problem with never having a scum double-voter is that you essentially give all future double-voters a free pass within the MTGS metagame. Because there are never scum double-voters, the double-voter in your game must be town, or maybe a neutral. Don't you think that's more damaging than a "surprise" scum win?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why is the concept of a scum doublevoter so foreign?
Because they do nothing until they win the game for scum a day earlier than the town expected. Surprise scum wins when you expect to be in Lynch Or Lose are really lame.
The problem with never having a scum double-voter is that you essentially give all future double-voters a free pass within the MTGS metagame. Because there are never scum double-voters, the double-voter in your game must be town, or maybe a neutral. Don't you think that's more damaging than a "surprise" scum win?
Hey Zionite, remember OFWGKTA?
Yes, I do. I'm not trying to defend the role; I'm only pointing out the danger in having town-only and scum-only roles when you don't balance for them with the metagame in mind. I kind of agree with Eco that a straight +1 vote isn't very fun. I much prefer a motivator role because it involves having to read other players enough to trust them with a +1 vote.
I think "surprise" scum wins via Unlynchable, higher lynch thresholds, doublevoter, daykills are all rewarding a successful line of play. I don't see a problem with them.
I think all of Iso's suggested roles are fine for Basics, but I don't generally see the need for the extra complications as opposed to their more commonplace partners. Original roles, IMO, should probably stay out of basics, regardless of complexity.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't have a problem with surprise wins when the threat is known. For example if their is a neutral that can win via X, the town knows their is an anti-town neutral, but don't know X, then it is fine since they will be on the lookout for odd behavior. If they don't know about the anti-town neutral, well that is a whole other can of worms.
In talking of making basics more streamlined, I'd like to propose a role that I haven't seen done in them before, but which I think (with experience in playing the game of Avalon) is a lot less swingy than cop/tracker/watcher type roles. The role is simply thus: one player knows who all of the mafia are. However, at the end of the game, if the town would win, the mafia gets one chance to guess who this player was. If they are correct, they win instead.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I see. Is that the ONLY role that exists in the game besides the scum?
You can have additional roles, but for a pure experience:
3 mafia, 9 town (1 of which knows all the mafia members)
No role shenanigans, just pure mafia play.
EDIT: To be clear, I was originally mentioning the idea just as a cop/tracker/watcher investigative replacement. However, your question prompted a potential different idea.
In talking of making basics more streamlined, I'd like to propose a role that I haven't seen done in them before, but which I think (with experience in playing the game of Avalon) is a lot less swingy than cop/tracker/watcher type roles. The role is simply thus: one player knows who all of the mafia are. However, at the end of the game, if the town would win, the mafia gets one chance to guess who this player was. If they are correct, they win instead.
That's a huge shift to the entire fabric of the game. If that one player plays well then the town basically auto-wins, while also forcing a town player to play like scum (by fabricating their reads). It also incentivises the scum to not NK or mislynch in order to keep everyone around to try and guess who that one player is. I also don't really like that a town can play well as a team, only to have at worst a 1/9 chance of just losing.
In short, I only see multiple huge downsides which also teaching new players how to play a totally different game to any non-basic games they would play. I think you need to go into a lot more detail on the positives because I acutally don't see any at all.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I suppose the role flips as VT. Anyway I'm intrigued by the setup, I think it would run well, however I agree with Eco this is not fit for a basic because that's not real mafia. It would make a fine normal or mini though.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
What happens if that player is NKed or lynched, anyway?
Ah, see here's the difference between Avalon and mafia. In Avalon, players are not eliminated. Drey is correct in that you would have to mark them as VT. I might post a summary of the rules of the game later today after I get home. It is a mafia-varient without kills for 5-10 players. My gaming group likes it better than mafia because people aren't eliminated and get to keep playing through the whole thing.
As you can see, didn't put much thought in the proposal to borrow the role o_O.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
There's so many different opinions that I have no idea what is a normal anymore, anyway, considering the league has absorbed the normal spot, I think their judges should have the final say on what constitutes a normal from now on. That being said, the old normal games that doesn't fit in the new guidelines should be incorporated into the Speciality queue or run as usual before the league takes over.
EDIT: @atlseal you don't really have to try to "fix" Avalon to play similar to mafia, maybe you can run it exactly how it was designed in the first place with minimal changes, because from what I'm seeing I think it would make a good speciality. This also gave me the idea of running a game of The Resistance.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I know Zenjo has played a few games, and is only here because I talked to him about mafia. I think pikachugundam and Kankennon started playing Mafia as a result of watching along in CCMVI.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yes, people have clearly brought their friends/other forum members to come play.
It seems like we need this on a larger scale, considering that we're still having rampant activity/replacement issues a month after the holidays. Something organized. Has this ever been discussed?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well, something has always bothered me when I came into Mafia. Three threads are stickied: "The Player Contact List/Replacement Request Thread (New players sign up here!)", "Mafia Hosting Sign-Ups & Player Rules" and "Welcome to the Mafia Subforum! (Rules, Info, and Articles)"
As a new player, I remember being confused by all of these conflicting threads. There are two threads that deal with "rules" and one that loudly says new players sign up here. It's jarring. Is it possible for us to get a one "new player thread" that new players can read if they want to join a game?
The hosting thread has HOSTING rules. I was specifically instructed by Az to include New Players Sign Up Here when I merged the PCL and Replacement threads.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You could always take a few tips from Assassins in the Palace games to adapt to an Avalon-style setup.
For reference: Assassins in the Palace is usually a mini, with 8 guards and 2 kings on the 'town' side, and 2 assassins on the 'mafia' side. The assassins' win condition is to kill both kings, regardless of whether the assassins are alive or not. All 8 guards know who the two kings are; the 2 kings don't know each other.
I don't quite remember if the assassins have a nightkill, but I do remember that each assassin can suicide bomb daykill another player at any time, and if lynched, can choose one player to immediately suicide bomb. You'd have to check MafiaScum for however it's run now, but that's what I recall from the last time I saw it.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
You could always take a few tips from Assassins in the Palace games to adapt to an Avalon-style setup.
For reference: Assassins in the Palace is usually a mini, with 8 guards and 2 kings on the 'town' side, and 2 assassins on the 'mafia' side. The assassins' win condition is to kill both kings, regardless of whether the assassins are alive or not. All 8 guards know who the two kings are; the 2 kings don't know each other.
I don't quite remember if the assassins have a nightkill, but I do remember that each assassin can suicide bomb daykill another player at any time, and if lynched, can choose one player to immediately suicide bomb. You'd have to check MafiaScum for however it's run now, but that's what I recall from the last time I saw it.
I absolutely love the assassin setup; there's a variant on IRC with one king and one assassin and the rest are guards. The assassin only needs to kill the king to win, but of course the guards do their thing to distract/find him. Pretty neat game.
Once per Night, you may target a player. If you are targeted with a kill on a Night you use this ability, you will not be killed. If the player you target is killed on the Night you target them, you will also die.
Once per Night, you may target a player. If you are targeted with a kill on the Night you target a player, the player you target that night will die, instead.
Once per Night, you may target a player. That player will have 2 votes until the end of the Day. You may not target the same player twice.
Are roles like these acceptable in a Basic? What about a Normal? Would a Neighborizour (limited shot or otherwise) be an okay role in a Basic? What about roles that die when they target scum?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Basic #70 is going to knock it out of the park
I think they are all ok, but very limited: the difference between them and their more regular counterpart (bodyguard/jailer, redirecting/bus driver variants, and vote giving) are all prety small, and it would make sense to bump them up. As an aside, I really hate double votes in basics, because they suck (do nothing at all except comfirm a player as town and maybe make a day end marginally earlier, possibly screw up LyLo).
I don't think a role necessarily has to exist in MSW to be legal (and there a good number that are in it that shouldn't be legal), you should just be aware that it is probably a good idea to move the role from an orignal and highly restrictive one to a more common and barely different in power level one.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It increases swinginess to a very large degree. It essentially gives two kills to the mafia.
Has anyone ever played a Mafia game without looking a their Role PM once?
This.
I am reminded of the time Seppel forgot who his scumbuddies were in CCMIV (which was more hilarious than dishonest).
perfectly fine in my book for a basic. It is basically a Jailkeeper with the added cavet of being a bodyguard.
Slightly modified Hider/coward role right here. Again perfectly fine. You could upgrade it to have it modify all actions most likely without it being game breaking.
Modified twin role, Again see no problems with the role, though you COULD go a bit more powerful and make it redirect all abilities to target player. I would be more apt to place this on a scum role however.
Ahh, what we call the Motivator on IRC. THIS one may be a bit iffy in a basic setup, but perfectly fine as is in a Normal. Making it limited shot also balances the role a bit more.
As for the neighborizer, I can see it working in a basic as a limited shot ability. In a normal have fun making it unlimited. Modified a bit to where they die if they kill non town would be a masonizer. Again, limited shot in a basic, unlimited in a normal is acceptable.
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Because they do nothing until they win the game for scum a day earlier than the town expected. Surprise scum wins when you expect to be in Lynch Or Lose are really lame.
The problem with never having a scum double-voter is that you essentially give all future double-voters a free pass within the MTGS metagame. Because there are never scum double-voters, the double-voter in your game must be town, or maybe a neutral. Don't you think that's more damaging than a "surprise" scum win?
Seriously this is not a big problem, some roles are exclusively scum, other town, this is not a bug, it's a feature. Mods must take this into account when balancing games though. Town double voter is also to be considered an information role (an innocent child really).
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
To be honest, I'll am unlikely to use a double voter in one of my games, regardless of alignment. I don't think it's a particularly excting role that adds anything to the game: I consider a straight up +1 vote to be an "I am confirmed town" button. It doesn't really do anything else apart from end a day marginally ealier and mean that the bearer has sole power in a 3-man endgame. Now I say "unlikely" because I can always be persuaded that a game needs a double voter, even if it's just as a confirmed town dude, or as some kind of foil for a 1 town, 1 scum, 1 SK endgame. In addition, there is plenty of design space around it: you can donate (or bequeath) votes, accrue votes through completing tasks, alternate between no vote/two votes, have a limited number of second votes, can't put 2 votes on the same player, or anything you can really think of. As long as it is balanced and can feasibly exist on any alignment (in a way I don't think a straight +1 vote can) then it can be used, and might even occurr in a game of mine.
In any case, people are welcome to ty and game me. Just remember that I put a town roleblocker in a basic game: that was somewhat unprecedented.
I also don't really think that using a role that can end the game a day earlier than anyone is expecting is an accetpable price to pay to avoid a " very likely town" role becoming " virtually auto town". Double voting is not so fun or useful that it outweighs the incredibly lameness of losing without seeing it coming. I would certainly choose "no double voters" to "frequent scum double voters".
EDIT: DRey basically covered my stance in fewer words.
I had a scum double-voter in Amistarian II, albeit she had to give up NK protection in order to use it, and the way the game played out it was irrelevant.
* * * * * *
It can be done, but you need to account for the swinginess that comes with it. The group size can be reduced by one, but if the scum loses the double-voter, it's obviously a huge blow. (The other mafia had the infamous traitor scum to "balance" them out. Dammit, Ged.)
I prefer the way Bateleur did it in Court Mafia, even though I basically enacted the strategy Zionite brings up here. Day one I had multiple votes (three, I think?), so I made sure to let everyone know it and get myself 'cleared' as town, claiming they were "stolen" later, IIRC.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
It's funny how often "dammit Ged" comes up after weird things happen in games...
Very true!
I miss Ged.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Hey Zionite, remember OFWGKTA?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yes, I do. I'm not trying to defend the role; I'm only pointing out the danger in having town-only and scum-only roles when you don't balance for them with the metagame in mind. I kind of agree with Eco that a straight +1 vote isn't very fun. I much prefer a motivator role because it involves having to read other players enough to trust them with a +1 vote.
Holy ****, you're unretired? When did that happen?
Also miss you too, bro.
Also also, I take that as a huge compliment, Eco.
I just recently came back - I'm playing in Eco/Toastboy's game.
Working on Amistarian III, drop me a line if you want to brainstorm with me and Gandarin_dan.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Please make more games.
FTFY
I think "surprise" scum wins via Unlynchable, higher lynch thresholds, doublevoter, daykills are all rewarding a successful line of play. I don't see a problem with them.
I think all of Iso's suggested roles are fine for Basics, but I don't generally see the need for the extra complications as opposed to their more commonplace partners. Original roles, IMO, should probably stay out of basics, regardless of complexity.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Will do, Ged!
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You can have additional roles, but for a pure experience:
3 mafia, 9 town (1 of which knows all the mafia members)
No role shenanigans, just pure mafia play.
EDIT: To be clear, I was originally mentioning the idea just as a cop/tracker/watcher investigative replacement. However, your question prompted a potential different idea.
That's a huge shift to the entire fabric of the game. If that one player plays well then the town basically auto-wins, while also forcing a town player to play like scum (by fabricating their reads). It also incentivises the scum to not NK or mislynch in order to keep everyone around to try and guess who that one player is. I also don't really like that a town can play well as a team, only to have at worst a 1/9 chance of just losing.
In short, I only see multiple huge downsides which also teaching new players how to play a totally different game to any non-basic games they would play. I think you need to go into a lot more detail on the positives because I acutally don't see any at all.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Ah, see here's the difference between Avalon and mafia. In Avalon, players are not eliminated. Drey is correct in that you would have to mark them as VT. I might post a summary of the rules of the game later today after I get home. It is a mafia-varient without kills for 5-10 players. My gaming group likes it better than mafia because people aren't eliminated and get to keep playing through the whole thing.
As you can see, didn't put much thought in the proposal to borrow the role o_O.
EDIT: @atlseal you don't really have to try to "fix" Avalon to play similar to mafia, maybe you can run it exactly how it was designed in the first place with minimal changes, because from what I'm seeing I think it would make a good speciality. This also gave me the idea of running a game of The Resistance.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
How do we fix this?
Talk to people about mafia.
I know Zenjo has played a few games, and is only here because I talked to him about mafia. I think pikachugundam and Kankennon started playing Mafia as a result of watching along in CCMVI.
Get the word out, and people are likely come.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Doing my part... Though you can thank rianalnn for getting me to start playing.
It seems like we need this on a larger scale, considering that we're still having rampant activity/replacement issues a month after the holidays. Something organized. Has this ever been discussed?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As a new player, I remember being confused by all of these conflicting threads. There are two threads that deal with "rules" and one that loudly says new players sign up here. It's jarring. Is it possible for us to get a one "new player thread" that new players can read if they want to join a game?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You could always take a few tips from Assassins in the Palace games to adapt to an Avalon-style setup.
For reference: Assassins in the Palace is usually a mini, with 8 guards and 2 kings on the 'town' side, and 2 assassins on the 'mafia' side. The assassins' win condition is to kill both kings, regardless of whether the assassins are alive or not. All 8 guards know who the two kings are; the 2 kings don't know each other.
I don't quite remember if the assassins have a nightkill, but I do remember that each assassin can suicide bomb daykill another player at any time, and if lynched, can choose one player to immediately suicide bomb. You'd have to check MafiaScum for however it's run now, but that's what I recall from the last time I saw it.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I absolutely love the assassin setup; there's a variant on IRC with one king and one assassin and the rest are guards. The assassin only needs to kill the king to win, but of course the guards do their thing to distract/find him. Pretty neat game.
Yeah, was just going to suggest that. /barn
Ugh, such a shame that the flash tutorial went down.. :/ I remember that was a major part of my understanding of the game.