Has anyone tried to make a script/use automaton stuff to handle vote counts? I'm quite interested in that.
I considered writing one, but you have to realize that players don't always follow the same 'method' for placing votes. In fact, there's often abbreviations or typos.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
@Mu: I'm sorry to hear that. Are you sure it's not just a bad day or whatever, because I've definitely had times when, for both in game and real life reasons, I needed to step away for a few days, or sometimes more. -Of course, if you really aren't enjoying it, then there is no reason to continue, but I'd hate to see you walk away if it's just because of a temporary frustration or annoyance or something like that.
Mafia brings out the worst in people, including myself, and I'm just tired of it. I take everything far too personally and at the point where a game is seriously affecting my real life emotional state, it's time for me to stop.
So it was down to player C and D, Player D goes and says he does not believe Player C was scum, thus PoEing himself as scum. Would this be worth an insta-lynch by the king?
Yes. Freudian slip. Subconscious desire to appear overly townie and to seem like he's being good with his reads, and as such, accidentally incriminates himself.
See personally, I would have sided with AI on this one. Pretty hard to explain how Player C is in Player D's mind town and how he isn't scum with 2 confirmed. I'll post up a log later when I get a chance to edit the player Name's out.
Unless B was just trying to "confirm" himself (non-quickhammer=/=town), there is no situation in which D should not have been lynched.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I considered writing one, but you have to realize that players don't always follow the same 'method' for placing votes. In fact, there's often abbreviations or typos.
What about if you say "if you use abbreviations/typos, your vote won't be counted" and "use some special sort of font so your vote will be counted"?
Then again, we have to outway the desire for an autovote count vs. the player's willingness to spell out each player's name.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mafia brings out the worst in people, including myself, and I'm just tired of it. I take everything far too personally and at the point where a game is seriously affecting my real life emotional state, it's time for me to stop.
Give it some time, then reconsider. You were a good addition to the subforum, and we hate to see such players go.
Mafia brings out the worst in people, including myself, and I'm just tired of it. I take everything far too personally and at the point where a game is seriously affecting my real life emotional state, it's time for me to stop.
I'm sorry to hear that you are leaving, but I can understand where you are coming from.
Will you still Mod games? I really enjoyed your flavor to Basic #53 The Magic Scholl Bus.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mafia brings out the worst in people, including myself, and I'm just tired of it. I take everything far too personally and at the point where a game is seriously affecting my real life emotional state, it's time for me to stop.
Sorry to see you go. If you decide to return after a break, maybe develop some strategies to help you compartmentalize. For example, it's easier for things to get heated if you are interacting with the forum rapidly. Even if you are around and available to post, give it a few hours before you reply. Remember, if you wanted to play at chat room speeds you would've signed up to play in a chat room. Grant yourself permission to gain perspective.
Sorry to see you go. If you decide to return after a break, maybe develop some strategies to help you compartmentalize. For example, it's easier for things to get heated if you are interacting with the forum rapidly. Even if you are around and available to post, give it a few hours before you reply. Remember, if you wanted to play at chat room speeds you would've signed up to play in a chat room. Grant yourself permission to gain perspective.
This is excellent advice, and for those of you who read Cyan's Impossible Mafia (Cyan's pick), that's a scenario exactly like what PM is referring to here. The situation on day 1 of the game escalated for the very reason that the two people arguing back-and-forth (me and Manders) were extremely active and firing shots at a rapid pace. (Granted I was doing so in an attempt to meet a restriction in my role to allow me to investigate at night which required having 100 more posts than my target.)
In fact, each scenario I can recall off the top of my head where feelings got hurt, the people were interacting almost real-time; it's easy to lose your cool in the heat of the moment.
So. I'm recommencing work on the setup for my specialty game, which has been in production in some form or another for about two years now. Only, I haven't really been around the forum for the past nine months or so. Would anyone care to fill me in on any notable advances, developments, innovations, etc. that have occurred in setup design in that time?
When I left, there was something of an ongoing debate over whether setups were getting too clever for their own good in the sense of deliberately faking players out to deter claim-based gameplay. Players were trying to use behavioral analysis almost exclusively as a reaction to this. Is that still the case, or has the pendulum swung back the other way?
Mostly, I'm just hoping to avoid a reaction of, "Well, that setup might've been cool in 2010, but..."
So. I'm recommencing work on the setup for my specialty game, which has been in production in some form or another for about two years now. Only, I haven't really been around the forum for the past nine months or so. Would anyone care to fill me in on any notable advances, developments, innovations, etc. that have occurred in setup design in that time?
When I left, there was something of an ongoing debate over whether setups were getting too clever for their own good in the sense of deliberately faking players out to deter claim-based gameplay. Players were trying to use behavioral analysis almost exclusively as a reaction to this. Is that still the case, or has the pendulum swung back the other way?
Mostly, I'm just hoping to avoid a reaction of, "Well, that setup might've been cool in 2010, but..."
This is excellent advice, and for those of you who read Cyan's Impossible Mafia (Cyan's pick), that's a scenario exactly like what PM is referring to here. The situation on day 1 of the game escalated for the very reason that the two people arguing back-and-forth (me and Manders) were extremely active and firing shots at a rapid pace. (Granted I was doing so in an attempt to meet a restriction in my role to allow me to investigate at night which required having 100 more posts than my target.)
In fact, each scenario I can recall off the top of my head where feelings got hurt, the people were interacting almost real-time; it's easy to lose your cool in the heat of the moment.
Great post, PM.
I still you, btw.
PM's absolutely right, though, and this is something I have GOT to work on. That and eliminating all curse words from my in-game posts. From now on the only ****s you'll get from me will be OOG ****s.
This post is inspired by ZDS's post in the Mafia League thread, which in turn links to some other excellent statistical analysis he did regarding the subject of why the town loses Specialties, FTQs, and large games in general.
Here is some analysis of large (18+ player) games and what trends may exist in their outcomes.
World Domination Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 983 posts): Town win
Kamigawa Mafia (20 players, 28 days, 688 posts): Town win
Shaman Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 1029 posts): Mafia win
Seventh Edition Mafia (30 (!) players, 2.5 months, 1930 posts): Town win
LOTR Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 913 posts): Mafia win
Random Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 1103 posts): Town win
8-Bit Mafia (22 players, 4 months, 1740 posts): Mafia win
High School Mafia (23 players, 2 months, 1318 posts): Town win
Random Mafia 2 (21 players, 3 months, 1597 posts): Mafia win
World Domination Mafia 2 (20 players, 1.5 months, 1267 posts): Mafia win
Sin City Mafia (23 players, 3 months, 1713 posts): Mafia win
Seinfeld Mafia (19 players, 2.5 months, 1370 posts): Town win
Douglas Adams Mafia (21 players, 2 months, 1750 posts): Mafia win
Star Trek Mafia (22 players, 4 months, 1980 posts): Mafia win
Romance of the Three Kingdoms Mafia (22 players, 6 months, 1805 posts): Town win
Magic Mafia (26 players, 4 months, 2139 posts): Mafia win
Court Mafia (20 players, 1.5 months, 1311 posts): Mafia win
Elegant Mafia (22 players, 2 months, 1567 posts): Town win
View Askew Mafia (26 players, 4 months, 1553 posts): Town win
Defense of the Ancients Mafia (20 players, 5 months, 2330 posts): Mafia win
Blood Moon Mafia (25 players, 5 months, 2582 posts): Mafia win
Mushroom Kingdom Mafia (21 players, 4 months, 1855 posts): SK win
Kung Fu Mafia (21 players, 3 months, 2178 posts): Mafia win
Matrix Mafia (24 players, 4 months, 4908 posts): Mafia win
The Greenwood Affair (22 players, 3 months, 1931 posts): Town win
1001 Nights Mafia (23 players, 3 months, 1717 posts): Mafia win
Random Mafia 3 (19 players, 6 months, 1736 posts): Mafia win
Hats Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 2006 posts): Town win
Points Mafia (20 players, 1 month, 1162 posts): Mafia win
Warhammer 40k Mafia (24 players, 3 months, 2435 posts): Town win
The Fiasco Corporation (23 players, 3 months, 2574 posts): SK win
Final Fantasy VII Mafia (28 players, 3 months, 2126 posts): SK win
Harry Potter Mafia (24 players, 8 months, 3181 posts): Mafia win
Berserk Mafia (24 players, 5 months, 1832 posts): Mafia win
Didn't do a whole lot with these since I'm not sure how relevant they are. The 4 months trend that is outlined below is still prevalent here, though - the town won just 2 out of 12 games that ran for 4 months or more.
"Ratio" means number of posts divided by number of months the game ran for. The months are not exact to the day and are rounded.
By the numbers:
36 games
15 town wins, 2 neutral wins, 19 mafia wins
Games that ended in under 2000 posts: 19
Games that ended in 2 months or less: 7
Games that ended in over 3000 posts that the town won: 2 out of 7
Games that ended in 4 months or more that the town won: 4 out of 15
Games whose posts/months ratio was less than 500 that the town won: 3 out of 7
Possible analysis that can be drawn from these statistics:
Games are getting longer, both in number of posts and in length of time they take to play out.
Games where there are a relatively low number of posts over a relatively long amount of time favor the mafia.
Games where there are a lot of posts favor the mafia.
Games that take a very long time overwhelmingly favor the mafia.
I'm sure there's a lot more than can be gleaned from this but my brain is tired from compiling it all. It'd be interesting to look back at how many replacements there were in these games, especially in games that had a low posts/months ratio, and see how the town fared in those games.
One more thing - out of all the 18+ player dual-mafia games we've ran on this site (there are 6, namely Too Much Scum 1, 24: The Salvation Code, Return to Amistaria, Doomsday Mafia, Battle Royale Mafia, and Annorax's Bastard Mod Mafia), the town has not won a single game.
Well, firstly, as a member of the town in two of the most recent giant games that were won by the scum (Hetalia, Flame Warriors), I can fairly say that morale was dwindling due to how long the games took, so it was easy for the scum to skate by because at that point the town just wanted to game to be over (despite, in Hetalia, the fact that 3 scum were dead relatively early on). In addition, Flame Warriors was just a cluster**** of spam posts (and I admit that I was a huge proponent of that) but due to the length of the game and sheer amount of posts, most people simply weren't willing to look too far back into the game. It's especially demoralizing in a game such as Flame Warriors, where no scum died at all.
In Star Trek, I think it's pretty worth noting that the scum pretty much threw that game away; there was a lurker modkill, a self-hammer, one that falseclaimed Doc and got CC'd, and it was just horrible. Otherwise, it's entirely possible that the town could have lost that one. It was a closer game overall than Flame Warriors. Hetalia was another close game, and I partially blame that loss on the mechanics that the scum could implement, effectively turning a 3 town 2 scum scenario into a 2 town 3 scum situation. It was a bit bastardly and unfair to the town who could rely only on analysis when the scum team had a bunch of stuff that the town had no way of knowing, and yeah I'm gonna stop ranting about a game that's long-over. But anyway, it's really easy for scum to fake townie demotivation and as such, longer games favoring the scum makes hella sense.
As for the 2-scum teams thing, I think a lot of the reason why those games also favor the mafia is because a lot of players would be looking for specific interactions (e.g. this person can't be scum with this person because X) and so when one scum team is dead they're like OH WELL WHO COULD IT BE NOT THIS PERSON BECAUSE X STILL APPLIES and yeah.
In the end, I think it really mostly comes down to the design of the game - wherein games that favor the scum are more often than not also the games that withhold more information from the town. I'd say it's more of a design flaw, and I'm uncertain as to whether or not this would be the fault of the designer/reviewer for not realizing this, the players for not being intuitive enough, or something else entirely.
I'm actually considering making a series of open-setup games simply to encourage more behavioral analysis over setup-gaming and confounding the town, or at least attempting to make my setups a little less bastardly. I recommend this become a more widespread practice; I'd really like to see some more open games here.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I 100 percent agree with Iso. I think open set-ups for Normal games would be awesome, or lower the Normal size to 16-18 players. Either of them would make me far more interested in joining Normals. As it stands now they mostly look long and boring, so I prefer basics. I'm also a terrible player so
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pure, in its general form, is acting with selfless intentions whilst living a life of proactive, correct and logical choices where blame is nonexistent and there replaced with gratitude.
Join the Pure Alliance! For fun, making friends, and the purification of your soul!
Every *TBD*, right here, we discuss cute things over some healthy green tea.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Will you even be able to keep your post count down ;)? Or will this be the first time a mod has the most posts in their game?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pure, in its general form, is acting with selfless intentions whilst living a life of proactive, correct and logical choices where blame is nonexistent and there replaced with gratitude.
Join the Pure Alliance! For fun, making friends, and the purification of your soul!
Every *TBD*, right here, we discuss cute things over some healthy green tea.
I need someone to bounce ideas off for my FTQ setup. I'm in the Brainstorming Stage right now. PM me and we can find the best medium to talk. AIM would be great.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The problem with giving everyone a killing role is that unless you put in conditions which prevent all killing roles from being active at the same time the set-up is easily breakable with a high town success rate.
The problem with giving everyone a killingthe same role is that unless you put in conditions which prevent all killingthe roles from being active at the same time the set-up is easily breakable with a high town success rate.
This is is more the reality than this specific example.
I don't know how many people know about games on MTGNews, but Doctor mafia is good example of how to handle this type of concept.
By the numbers:
33 games (some from my last count were omitted, like Doha Mafia, since alignments changed during the course of that game.)
Games where 20% or more of the town replaced out: 16.
Number of those games the town won: 3.
Games where 40% or more of the scum replaced out: 9
Number of those games the town won: 4
Games where 20% or more of players, regardless of alignment, replaced out: 17
Number of those games the town won: 5
Total replacement rate (not counting anyone but townies and mafia, so no neutrals of any kind): 143/689 or 21%.
Notes about this data: Whenever a player was modkilled because a replacement could not be found, I counted that as a modkill. Instances where one role was held by three or more players during a game always counted as extra replacements (so, for example, in Hetalia, obviously 100% of the scumteam did not actually replace out. But Seppel's role was held by 4 seperate players during that game, so that counted as 3 replacements.) Also, numbers are probably off for South Park.
In a Normal/Special/whatever, is a two-shot vig that shoots people into tree stumps considered bastardly or a bad role? Basically they target someone at night and the person can still post they just aren't considering 'living' and cannot vote.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pure, in its general form, is acting with selfless intentions whilst living a life of proactive, correct and logical choices where blame is nonexistent and there replaced with gratitude.
Join the Pure Alliance! For fun, making friends, and the purification of your soul!
Every *TBD*, right here, we discuss cute things over some healthy green tea.
In a Normal/Special/whatever, is a two-shot vig that shoots people into tree stumps considered bastardly or a bad role? Basically they target someone at night and the person can still post they just aren't considering 'living' and cannot vote.
Not inherently, but understand that many players would lose interest at that point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
To expand on atlseal's point, it's potentially problematic if you design and balance the game around those players still contributing in every way other than voting. That's often an unrealistic expectation.
Roles that limit other players' ability to participate in the game without removing them outright (i.e. killing them) tend not to be fun because the affected players are locked out of the normal privileges of being a player while still being saddled with the responsibility of keeping up with all the game's developments so that they can be of use to their team. All the work with less of the fun, basically.
So I guess my advice would be to steer clear of roles that prevent other players from posting, voting, etc. unless you have a definite reason for including them.
The problem with giving everyone a killing role is that unless you put in conditions which prevent all killing roles from being active at the same time the set-up is easily breakable with a high town success rate.
Yea, that is the big problem. I know on Xylbot, we handled the problem by making some of the town 50% OSVs(Basically 50% of the time the shot will fail,) and other's 0% OSV (basically townie.) None of the 50% or 0% vigs know if they are not full vigs or not. This helps in balancing the setup somewhat, but it would result in more book keeping on the Mod's end.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Assuming you're talking about the 0/50 vig thing, it's only bastardly if you tell the person that they are a full vig. If you tell them that they are a 50% vig, (even though they may be 0), I don't think it is anymore. My judgement about bastardly is if a player will get mad at you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I think it's not bastardly so long as people know going into the game that their vig shots may not be effective. To me, bastardy is not putting a bomb in a cake box - it's the difference between "Five of these boxes have cakes, one has a bomb" and "Have six cakes! All are delicious!"
I think it's not bastardly so long as people know going into the game that their vig shots may not be effective. To me, bastardy is not putting a bomb in a cake box - it's the difference between "Five of these boxes have cakes, one has a bomb" and "Have six cakes! All are delicious!"
That's an excellent way of putting it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Assuming you're talking about the 0/50 vig thing, it's only bastardly if you tell the person that they are a full vig. If you tell them that they are a 50% vig, (even though they may be 0), I don't think it is anymore. My judgement about bastardly is if a player will get mad at you.
Well given Texas Justice is an open setup, there is no way a townie would NOT know that there is a chance that they may have a defective shot. Now the player does not nor should not know in their role PM if they are indeed 50/0% but they should be aware that there is the chance that they are.
This does raise the question though, if you consider that bastardiy, then would quack docs and insane cops also be bastardly as well, even without warning, considering that in both cases they are somewhat common modifiers to their respective roles?
Well given Texas Justice is an open setup, there is no way a townie would NOT know that there is a chance that they may have a defective shot. Now the player does not nor should not know in their role PM if they are indeed 50/0% but they should be aware that there is the chance that they are.
This does raise the question though, if you consider that bastardiy, then would quack docs and insane cops also be bastardly as well, even without warning, considering that in both cases they are somewhat common modifiers to their respective roles?
Was it not clear? I don't actually find the 0/50 bastardly as long as the player knows that there's a chance their shot will fail. Its all in expectations. Can the player trust you? If they can't it's bastardly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Was it not clear? I don't actually find the 0/50 bastardly as long as the player knows that there's a chance their shot will fail. Its all in expectations. Can the player trust you? If they can't it's bastardly.
OH, that was not directed to you, that was more towards Iso and Guardman. Should have made that clear.
Again, read Doctor Mafia on MTGNews. It was setup so that each doctor saved a certain percentage towards the kill, and the scum would be able to stack certain percentages towards the kill. If the percentage was over 100 the player would die.
You can do the same thing for this game - some players shot is worth 100%, some 50%, some 25%, etc. If a person gets over 100% in a night then they die - with no random calculations.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well, first of all, you guys are forgetting numerous factors. Among them, one powerful one called "Meta". Being a psychological game and considering there are several frequent players of varying reputations in that channel, many situations are open to psychological exploitation based on those reputations.
Another point I'd like to emphasize about is related to "reads", fake or not. Stating disbelief that X is mafia or suggesting "X is town" does not imply absolute knowledge therefore there's no way in which it can be counted as a definitive POE. Also, consider how instantaneous the claim was. In a game like kingmaker, where there's no content, such reads don't carry much weight as they are always based on very little.
haven't you ever had a lylo where you didn't strongly suspect any player?
Quote from "Tanarin" »
See personally, I would have sided with AI on this one. Pretty hard to explain how Player C is in Player D's mind town and how he isn't scum with 2 confirmed. I'll post up a log later when I get a chance to edit the player Name's out.
Because the X is town was instantaneous after DAY START. The appearance was that I didn't even read who died or not, who was king, etc. I didn't care about those things because I was town. That was the point I subtly pointed out later.
You're misjudging a lot of things.
One last time just in case:
There was never any mistake here. It was all intended. I might have lost it if player F didn't react so "But it's obv, don't you see?" but he did, and the kill was weird.
My thought process involved the following: I would not kill the kingmaker. I would kill a player that was scumy/lurky/inactive and it would look like a weird kill. The previous king (who he is absolutely relevant) had done his fastlynching thing and would always spark fear. KM was more likely to king me or the remaining player (Who's close to the aforementioned Player F in real life).
I knew imp was going to be cleared and that I'd win or Player B would be king (and cleared for not lynching) so when I said what I did, I was completely aware. The point was to do play the disoriented townie, oh, look, I was wrong that I even called scum town when it should've been obv, made the argument for them, foot in my mouth and all that.
Next thought -> Mafia would know better than that, he must be town.
If we add the weird kill and the fact that F wasn't seemingly sure who the KM
was (and got worked up easily pointing at "the obvious") it was a pretty good gambit.
I would not try it with people I don't know or uncreative types.
But yes, gambits are fan. I have a couple more in mind.
Sincerely,
I considered writing one, but you have to realize that players don't always follow the same 'method' for placing votes. In fact, there's often abbreviations or typos.
Mafia brings out the worst in people, including myself, and I'm just tired of it. I take everything far too personally and at the point where a game is seriously affecting my real life emotional state, it's time for me to stop.
LOL
Yes. Freudian slip. Subconscious desire to appear overly townie and to seem like he's being good with his reads, and as such, accidentally incriminates himself.
Nooo Muuu. </3 We love you here.
Sorry we drive you up the wall. Shoot me a PM?
Unless B was just trying to "confirm" himself (non-quickhammer=/=town), there is no situation in which D should not have been lynched.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumWhat about if you say "if you use abbreviations/typos, your vote won't be counted" and "use some special sort of font so your vote will be counted"?
Then again, we have to outway the desire for an autovote count vs. the player's willingness to spell out each player's name.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Give it some time, then reconsider. You were a good addition to the subforum, and we hate to see such players go.
From what I understand, if B was mafia, the game would already have been over.
I'm sorry to hear that you are leaving, but I can understand where you are coming from.
Will you still Mod games? I really enjoyed your flavor to Basic #53 The Magic Scholl Bus.
My bad.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sorry to see you go. If you decide to return after a break, maybe develop some strategies to help you compartmentalize. For example, it's easier for things to get heated if you are interacting with the forum rapidly. Even if you are around and available to post, give it a few hours before you reply. Remember, if you wanted to play at chat room speeds you would've signed up to play in a chat room. Grant yourself permission to gain perspective.
Hopefully this is just a bad day/week, and that a bit of time to clear your head will change your mind.
Stay awesome.
Come back when you learn to care less?
s'been real
Yep, even though it isn't fixed perse, the bot does not slip in powerroles in Kingmaker until 7P usually for balance reasons.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
This is excellent advice, and for those of you who read Cyan's Impossible Mafia (Cyan's pick), that's a scenario exactly like what PM is referring to here. The situation on day 1 of the game escalated for the very reason that the two people arguing back-and-forth (me and Manders) were extremely active and firing shots at a rapid pace. (Granted I was doing so in an attempt to meet a restriction in my role to allow me to investigate at night which required having 100 more posts than my target.)
In fact, each scenario I can recall off the top of my head where feelings got hurt, the people were interacting almost real-time; it's easy to lose your cool in the heat of the moment.
Great post, PM.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
When I left, there was something of an ongoing debate over whether setups were getting too clever for their own good in the sense of deliberately faking players out to deter claim-based gameplay. Players were trying to use behavioral analysis almost exclusively as a reaction to this. Is that still the case, or has the pendulum swung back the other way?
Mostly, I'm just hoping to avoid a reaction of, "Well, that setup might've been cool in 2010, but..."
I think setups are still punishing relying too much on claim-based analysis, & you know, behavioural analysis ain't never going out of style.
"This setup is SO 2010." *snap-snap*
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I still
PM's absolutely right, though, and this is something I have GOT to work on. That and eliminating all curse words from my in-game posts. From now on the only ****s you'll get from me will be OOG ****s.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
Here is some analysis of large (18+ player) games and what trends may exist in their outcomes.
Kamigawa Mafia (20 players, 28 days, 688 posts): Town win
Shaman Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 1029 posts): Mafia win
Seventh Edition Mafia (30 (!) players, 2.5 months, 1930 posts): Town win
LOTR Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 913 posts): Mafia win
Random Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 1103 posts): Town win
8-Bit Mafia (22 players, 4 months, 1740 posts): Mafia win
High School Mafia (23 players, 2 months, 1318 posts): Town win
Random Mafia 2 (21 players, 3 months, 1597 posts): Mafia win
World Domination Mafia 2 (20 players, 1.5 months, 1267 posts): Mafia win
Sin City Mafia (23 players, 3 months, 1713 posts): Mafia win
Seinfeld Mafia (19 players, 2.5 months, 1370 posts): Town win
Douglas Adams Mafia (21 players, 2 months, 1750 posts): Mafia win
Star Trek Mafia (22 players, 4 months, 1980 posts): Mafia win
Romance of the Three Kingdoms Mafia (22 players, 6 months, 1805 posts): Town win
Magic Mafia (26 players, 4 months, 2139 posts): Mafia win
Court Mafia (20 players, 1.5 months, 1311 posts): Mafia win
Elegant Mafia (22 players, 2 months, 1567 posts): Town win
View Askew Mafia (26 players, 4 months, 1553 posts): Town win
Defense of the Ancients Mafia (20 players, 5 months, 2330 posts): Mafia win
Blood Moon Mafia (25 players, 5 months, 2582 posts): Mafia win
Mushroom Kingdom Mafia (21 players, 4 months, 1855 posts): SK win
Kung Fu Mafia (21 players, 3 months, 2178 posts): Mafia win
Matrix Mafia (24 players, 4 months, 4908 posts): Mafia win
The Greenwood Affair (22 players, 3 months, 1931 posts): Town win
1001 Nights Mafia (23 players, 3 months, 1717 posts): Mafia win
Random Mafia 3 (19 players, 6 months, 1736 posts): Mafia win
Hats Mafia (20 players, 2 months, 2006 posts): Town win
Points Mafia (20 players, 1 month, 1162 posts): Mafia win
Warhammer 40k Mafia (24 players, 3 months, 2435 posts): Town win
The Fiasco Corporation (23 players, 3 months, 2574 posts): SK win
Final Fantasy VII Mafia (28 players, 3 months, 2126 posts): SK win
Harry Potter Mafia (24 players, 8 months, 3181 posts): Mafia win
Berserk Mafia (24 players, 5 months, 1832 posts): Mafia win
Didn't do a whole lot with these since I'm not sure how relevant they are. The 4 months trend that is outlined below is still prevalent here, though - the town won just 2 out of 12 games that ran for 4 months or more.
Amistarian Mafia (21 players, 1 month, 1618 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 1618)
VR: Salvation Mafia (20 players, 4.5 months, 2732 posts): Town win (ratio: 607)
Danger City (19 players, 3 months, 1440 posts): Town win (ratio: 480)
Tales of the Fantastic (24 players, 2 months, 1780 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 890)
Persona Mafia (20 players, 4.5 months, 1779 posts): Town win (ratio: 395.3)
Led Zeppelin Mafia (24 players, 2 months, 1211 posts): Town win (ratio: 605.5)
Inheritance Mafia (24 players, 7 months, 5762 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 823.1)
Cubus's Normal (21 players, 3 months, 1896 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 632)
Inter-Dimensional Fleet Mafia (22 players, 3 months, 1493 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 497.7)
Ghost Town Mafia (22 players, 4 months, 2185 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 546.25)
Sword of Truth Mafia (22 players, 3 months, 1895 posts): Neutral win (ratio: 631.7)
Joss Whedon Mafia (22 players, 2 months, 1918 posts): Town win (ratio: 959)
LOTR II (20 players, 3 months, 962 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 320.7)
Manipulator Mafia (20 players, 2.5 months, 1133 posts): Town win (ratio: 453.2)
Anita Blake Mafia 2 (20 players, 1.5 months, 1686 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 1124)
Duel Monsters Mafia (21 players, 2.5 months, 1656 posts): Town win (ratio: 662.4)
The Asphodel Meadows (24 players, 3.5 months, 2488 posts): Town win (ratio: 710.9)
Symbiote Mafia (23 players, 3 months, 1906 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 635.3)
Heroes Mafia (22 players, 2 months, 1374 posts): Town win (ratio: 687)
South Park Mafia (22 players, 3 months, 1063 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 354.3)
Goo Mafia (21 players, 4.5 months, 1800 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 400)
CCMIV (22 players, 4 months, 2975 posts): SK win (ratio: 743.75)
Powerful Wizard Mafia (18 players, 4 months, 1719 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 429.75)
Doha Mafia (22 players, 5 months, 3113 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 622.6)
Ogre Mafia (22 players, 3 months, 2834 posts): Town win (ratio: 944.7)
Conflux Mafia (21 players, 3.5 months, 2266 posts): Town win (ratio: 647.4)
Hecatea Mafia (22 players, 4 months, 3726 posts): Town win (ratio: 931.5)
Final Fantasy Mafia (24 players, 5.5 months, 2398 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 436)
Grim Batol (23 players, 4.5 months, 2385 posts): Town win (ratio: 530)
Neon Genesis Evangelion Mafia (22 players, 4 months, 2656 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 664)
Hetalia Mafia (20 players, 5 months, 3613 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 722.6)
Star Trek Myriad Universes (25 players, 4 months, 3286 posts): Town win (ratio: 821.5)
CCMV (20 players, 5 months, 3681 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 736.2)
Flame Warriors Mafia (24 players, 4.5 months, 5627 posts): Mafia win (ratio: 1250.4)
"Ratio" means number of posts divided by number of months the game ran for. The months are not exact to the day and are rounded.
By the numbers:
36 games
15 town wins, 2 neutral wins, 19 mafia wins
Games that ended in under 2000 posts: 19
Games that ended in 2 months or less: 7
Games that ended in over 3000 posts that the town won: 2 out of 7
Games that ended in 4 months or more that the town won: 4 out of 15
Games whose posts/months ratio was less than 500 that the town won: 3 out of 7
Possible analysis that can be drawn from these statistics:
Games are getting longer, both in number of posts and in length of time they take to play out.
Games where there are a relatively low number of posts over a relatively long amount of time favor the mafia.
Games where there are a lot of posts favor the mafia.
Games that take a very long time overwhelmingly favor the mafia.
I'm sure there's a lot more than can be gleaned from this but my brain is tired from compiling it all. It'd be interesting to look back at how many replacements there were in these games, especially in games that had a low posts/months ratio, and see how the town fared in those games.
One more thing - out of all the 18+ player dual-mafia games we've ran on this site (there are 6, namely Too Much Scum 1, 24: The Salvation Code, Return to Amistaria, Doomsday Mafia, Battle Royale Mafia, and Annorax's Bastard Mod Mafia), the town has not won a single game.
Thoughts?
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Well, firstly, as a member of the town in two of the most recent giant games that were won by the scum (Hetalia, Flame Warriors), I can fairly say that morale was dwindling due to how long the games took, so it was easy for the scum to skate by because at that point the town just wanted to game to be over (despite, in Hetalia, the fact that 3 scum were dead relatively early on). In addition, Flame Warriors was just a cluster**** of spam posts (and I admit that I was a huge proponent of that) but due to the length of the game and sheer amount of posts, most people simply weren't willing to look too far back into the game. It's especially demoralizing in a game such as Flame Warriors, where no scum died at all.
In Star Trek, I think it's pretty worth noting that the scum pretty much threw that game away; there was a lurker modkill, a self-hammer, one that falseclaimed Doc and got CC'd, and it was just horrible. Otherwise, it's entirely possible that the town could have lost that one. It was a closer game overall than Flame Warriors. Hetalia was another close game, and I partially blame that loss on the mechanics that the scum could implement, effectively turning a 3 town 2 scum scenario into a 2 town 3 scum situation. It was a bit bastardly and unfair to the town who could rely only on analysis when the scum team had a bunch of stuff that the town had no way of knowing, and yeah I'm gonna stop ranting about a game that's long-over. But anyway, it's really easy for scum to fake townie demotivation and as such, longer games favoring the scum makes hella sense.
As for the 2-scum teams thing, I think a lot of the reason why those games also favor the mafia is because a lot of players would be looking for specific interactions (e.g. this person can't be scum with this person because X) and so when one scum team is dead they're like OH WELL WHO COULD IT BE NOT THIS PERSON BECAUSE X STILL APPLIES and yeah.
In the end, I think it really mostly comes down to the design of the game - wherein games that favor the scum are more often than not also the games that withhold more information from the town. I'd say it's more of a design flaw, and I'm uncertain as to whether or not this would be the fault of the designer/reviewer for not realizing this, the players for not being intuitive enough, or something else entirely.
I'm actually considering making a series of open-setup games simply to encourage more behavioral analysis over setup-gaming and confounding the town, or at least attempting to make my setups a little less bastardly. I recommend this become a more widespread practice; I'd really like to see some more open games here.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Join the Pure Alliance! For fun, making friends, and the purification of your soul!
Every *TBD*, right here, we discuss cute things over some healthy green tea.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Join the Pure Alliance! For fun, making friends, and the purification of your soul!
Every *TBD*, right here, we discuss cute things over some healthy green tea.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't know how many people know about games on MTGNews, but Doctor mafia is good example of how to handle this type of concept.
Amistarian Mafia - 3/15 townies replaced, 0/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 20%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Scum win.
Danger City - No replacements. Town win.
Tales of the Fantastic - 0/14 townies replaced, 2/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 0%. Scum replacement rate: 40%. Scum win.
Persona Mafia - 2/15 townies replaced, 0/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 13%. Scum repalcement rate: 0%. Town win.
Led Zeppelin Mafia - 1/15 townies replaced, 1/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 7%. Scum replacement rate: 20%. Town win.
Inheritance Mafia - 5/18 townies replaced, 2/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 28%. Scum replacement rate: 40%. Scum win.
Cubus's Normal - 6/16 townies replaced, 0/4 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 38%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Scum win.
Fleet Mafia: No replacements. Scum win.
Ghost Town Mafia: 2/15 townies replaced, 1/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 13%. Scum replacement rate: 20%. Scum win.
Sword of Truth Mafia: 4/14 townies replaced*, 1/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 29%. Scum replacement rate: 20%. Neutral win.
Joss Whedon Mafia: 1/15 townies replaced, 0/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 7%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Town win.
LOTR II: 1/15 townies replaced, 0/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 7%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Scum win.
Manipulator Mafia: No replacements. Town win.
Anita Blake Mafia 2: 1/15 townies replaced, 0/4 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 7%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Scum win.
Duel Monsters Mafia: 4/15 townies replaced, 0/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 27%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Town win.
The Asphodel Meadows: 2/16 townies replaced, 1/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 13%. Scum replacement rate: 20%. Town win.
Symbiote Mafia: 4/16 townies replaced, 0/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 25%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Scum win.
Heroes Mafia: 1/16 townies replaced, 1/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 6%. Scum replacement rate: 20%. Town win.
South Park Mafia: 5/15 townies replaced*, 1/6 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 33%. Scum replacement rate: 17%. Scum win.
Goo Mafia: 4/15 townies replaced, 4/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 27%. Scum replacement rate: 80%. Scum win.
CCMIV: 3/16 townies replaced, 3/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 19%. Scum replacement rate: 60%. SK win.
Powerful Wizard Mafia: 3/14 townies replaced, 0/4 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 21%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Scum win.
Ogre Mafia: 6/15 townies replaced, 2/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 40%. Scum replacement rate: 40%. Town win.
Conflux Mafia: 2/15 townies replaced, 1/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 13%. Scum replacement rate: 20%. Town win.
Hecatea Mafia: 2/16 townies replaced, 4/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 13%. Scum replacement rate: 80%. Town win.
Final Fantasy Mafia: 7/17 townies replaced, 2/6 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 41%. Scum replacement rate: 33%. Scum win.
Grim Batol: 5/18 townies replaced, 2/4 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 28%. Scum replacement rate: 50%. Town win.
NGE Mafia: 6/15 townies replaced, 1/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 40%. Scum replacement rate: 20%. Scum win.
Hetalia Mafia: 7/14 townies replaced, 5/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 50%. Scum replacement rate: 100%. Scum win.
Star Trek Myriad Universes: 3/18 townies replaced, 2/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 17%. Scum replacement rate: 40%. Town win.
CCMV: 3/14 townies replaced, 1/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 21%. Scum replacement rate: 20%. Scum win.
Flame Warriors Mafia: 5/17 townies replaced, 0/5 scum replaced. Townie replacement rate: 29%. Scum replacement rate: 0%. Scum win.
By the numbers:
33 games (some from my last count were omitted, like Doha Mafia, since alignments changed during the course of that game.)
Games where 20% or more of the town replaced out: 16.
Number of those games the town won: 3.
Games where 40% or more of the scum replaced out: 9
Number of those games the town won: 4
Games where 20% or more of players, regardless of alignment, replaced out: 17
Number of those games the town won: 5
Total replacement rate (not counting anyone but townies and mafia, so no neutrals of any kind): 143/689 or 21%.
Notes about this data: Whenever a player was modkilled because a replacement could not be found, I counted that as a modkill. Instances where one role was held by three or more players during a game always counted as extra replacements (so, for example, in Hetalia, obviously 100% of the scumteam did not actually replace out. But Seppel's role was held by 4 seperate players during that game, so that counted as 3 replacements.) Also, numbers are probably off for South Park.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Join the Pure Alliance! For fun, making friends, and the purification of your soul!
Every *TBD*, right here, we discuss cute things over some healthy green tea.
Not inherently, but understand that many players would lose interest at that point.
Roles that limit other players' ability to participate in the game without removing them outright (i.e. killing them) tend not to be fun because the affected players are locked out of the normal privileges of being a player while still being saddled with the responsibility of keeping up with all the game's developments so that they can be of use to their team. All the work with less of the fun, basically.
So I guess my advice would be to steer clear of roles that prevent other players from posting, voting, etc. unless you have a definite reason for including them.
Yea, that is the big problem. I know on Xylbot, we handled the problem by making some of the town 50% OSVs(Basically 50% of the time the shot will fail,) and other's 0% OSV (basically townie.) None of the 50% or 0% vigs know if they are not full vigs or not. This helps in balancing the setup somewhat, but it would result in more book keeping on the Mod's end.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Assuming you're talking about the 0/50 vig thing, it's only bastardly if you tell the person that they are a full vig. If you tell them that they are a 50% vig, (even though they may be 0), I don't think it is anymore. My judgement about bastardly is if a player will get mad at you.
That's an excellent way of putting it.
Well given Texas Justice is an open setup, there is no way a townie would NOT know that there is a chance that they may have a defective shot. Now the player does not nor should not know in their role PM if they are indeed 50/0% but they should be aware that there is the chance that they are.
This does raise the question though, if you consider that bastardiy, then would quack docs and insane cops also be bastardly as well, even without warning, considering that in both cases they are somewhat common modifiers to their respective roles?
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Was it not clear? I don't actually find the 0/50 bastardly as long as the player knows that there's a chance their shot will fail. Its all in expectations. Can the player trust you? If they can't it's bastardly.
OH, that was not directed to you, that was more towards Iso and Guardman. Should have made that clear.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
You can do the same thing for this game - some players shot is worth 100%, some 50%, some 25%, etc. If a person gets over 100% in a night then they die - with no random calculations.
"**** you, I'm Batman."
Best argument or best argument?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
"**** you, I'm Heath Ledger."
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why so serious?
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Because you guys are pushing the bounds of spam here. Please stop.
- atlseal
I'm player D and I've come to give you some insights from that game and why I think you're mistaken in your assesment.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7986720&postcount=3730
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=28513&page=250
Well, first of all, you guys are forgetting numerous factors. Among them, one powerful one called "Meta". Being a psychological game and considering there are several frequent players of varying reputations in that channel, many situations are open to psychological exploitation based on those reputations.
Another point I'd like to emphasize about is related to "reads", fake or not. Stating disbelief that X is mafia or suggesting "X is town" does not imply absolute knowledge therefore there's no way in which it can be counted as a definitive POE. Also, consider how instantaneous the claim was. In a game like kingmaker, where there's no content, such reads don't carry much weight as they are always based on very little.
haven't you ever had a lylo where you didn't strongly suspect any player?
Because the X is town was instantaneous after DAY START. The appearance was that I didn't even read who died or not, who was king, etc. I didn't care about those things because I was town. That was the point I subtly pointed out later.
You're misjudging a lot of things.
One last time just in case:
There was never any mistake here. It was all intended. I might have lost it if player F didn't react so "But it's obv, don't you see?" but he did, and the kill was weird.
My thought process involved the following: I would not kill the kingmaker. I would kill a player that was scumy/lurky/inactive and it would look like a weird kill. The previous king (who he is absolutely relevant) had done his fastlynching thing and would always spark fear. KM was more likely to king me or the remaining player (Who's close to the aforementioned Player F in real life).
I knew imp was going to be cleared and that I'd win or Player B would be king (and cleared for not lynching) so when I said what I did, I was completely aware. The point was to do play the disoriented townie, oh, look, I was wrong that I even called scum town when it should've been obv, made the argument for them, foot in my mouth and all that.
Next thought -> Mafia would know better than that, he must be town.
If we add the weird kill and the fact that F wasn't seemingly sure who the KM
was (and got worked up easily pointing at "the obvious") it was a pretty good gambit.
I would not try it with people I don't know or uncreative types.
But yes, gambits are fan. I have a couple more in mind.
Sincerely,
Occam's Razor FTW?