I doubt you all need me to post (and, let's be honest, if you, me, Generic, Rhand all posted from the same hydra I'd even have trouble reading it and I'd have access to the role PM) but I'll be happy to follow along/give reads in the chat.
@DCIII: You should still join. I need players for non-Family hydras. Since two clans that were earlier interested have become busy, I have two empty slots and I need someone to fill them...
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@DCIII: You should still join. I need players for non-Family hydras. Since two clans that were earlier interested have become busy, I have two empty slots and I need someone to fill them...
Sorry man, if I participate it'll definitely be to help my clan. I just, I dunno, I have a hard time getting into playing with hydras. Looks like you're only one away from launching, though.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
so posted this in the wrong mafia thread so just to copy paste:
"I get that being an ass is considered a 'legit playstyle' in this game, but c'mon people! there is a point where you arent playing and just being an ass for the sake of being an ass.
Requesting review of Megs and imabusinessman."
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Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
so posted this in the wrong mafia thread so just to copy paste:
"I get that being an ass is considered a 'legit playstyle' in this game, but c'mon people! there is a point where you arent playing and just being an ass for the sake of being an ass.
Requesting review of Megs and imabusinessman."
Are there any particular posts you'd like to present?
Im not sure how the rule of 'dont talk about ongoing games' applies here in the council so i dont know how much i can say, if its ok to quote then ill post them, otherwise i could PM them to Az for review if preferred.
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Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
I am placing myself on the blacklist [in spirit] (for playing, not hosting) until I have a little more stability in my life and I've had a sufficient break to de-burn myself from Mafia burnout. It's been creeping into my play and severely hampering my love for the game, as well as making it unenjoyable for other people that I'm playing with.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I've reviewed the posts in question and I'm not lol'ing.
They may not be blacklist worthy, but the line my own mind has always that's it's ok to criticize bad play, but not to haze the player. I'd rather we keep a tighter leash on that. One of our chief selling points has always been that we have a more pleasant environment and better sportsmanship than other mafia sites, and hazing players for mistakes won't exactly help bring flocks of players to our doors, or help us keep the players we already have. Make sense?
I'm also not sure why we are talking about an ongoing game at all (this would appear to be trying to exert undue outside influence on the game on Sepiriel's part)
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm also not sure why we are talking about an ongoing game at all (this would appear to be trying to exert undue outside influence on the game on Sepiriel's part)
There's an exception to that rule for reporting flaming or sportsmanship issues. And even if you were going to leave permanently, I think it's important for not only Sepiriel, but for the playerbase as a whole to be reminded that we would like to keep things civil, polite, and in a healthy spirit of fun to the best of our ability. I need that reminder myself from time to time.
The council is currently reviewing the matter from CCM regarding Proph, Chemtrail (aka homarid honey), and Megiddo for possible disciplinary action. Briefly, the players in that game were given hydra accounts, but required to sign their names at the end of each post. Instead, they agreed prior to the game to sign their name only as Homarid Honey. The Hydra account was also used to make some particularly choice flames, such as:
"hey go piss up a rope you autistic *******"
Which might just be the single most offensive post I've ever read in a game of mafia in ten years.
As far as I'm concerned, ALL available disciplinary options are available for consideration. Mafia runs on an honor system - a cold and calculating decision to violate that honor system is a very serious matter, which we've dealt with very harshly on the past occasions where it has come to light.
We'll be gathering more information on the situation, and keep you posted.
With Proph being recently promoted to moderator, the situation is further complicated. In the spirit of transparency, I'm including my own views on the subject from the council cave.
Quote from Azrael »
As a past mafia mod/admin, one of the most difficult things I had to do was attempt to police Mandershex when she toed or crossed the line on flaming. It was not comfortable, and while we had a good working relationship, it was hella awkward.
However, I felt at the time that it was absolutely critical that we not present a double standard for how moderators were treated, versus ordinary users. Moderator status should mean that you are held not to a lower standard, but to a higher standard, than the rest of the userbase. You're a leadership role, that comes with the territory.
Now, in Mandershex's case, it was a matter of her losing her temper. It wasn't intentional, but over time, it was still sufficient for me to make the difficult decision to terminate her from her position as mafia mod. In this case, we have a mafia moderator who knowingly broke the rules in playing a hydra account illegally, just for S&Gs. Proph's been around long enough to KNOW that's not ok. There have only been a very small number of times someone has flagrantly broken a mafia rule out of cool calculation, and it was met with swift and decisive action. While I like Proph and he's one of my favorite people to play with at the moment, it certainly seems questionable from an objective, dispassionate standpoint to have one of the few people to ever intentionally break a core mafia rule, put in charge of making sure everyone else follows our rules. Compounding that, the hydra he participated in was used to make posts like the following:
"hey go piss up a rope you autistic *******"
Which might just be the single most offensive post I've ever read in a game of mafia in ten years.
It's certainly a point in his favor that he came clean about it, but this a pretty ugly set of facts we're dealing with, and I'm not sure I'm satisfied to overlook this "because mod". It also sounds as if he may have only come clean about it, because you forced his hand. Mafia is a game that relies on the honor system, and the integrity of the game depends upon having confidence that the people you're playing with will abide by the rules. That's why we've taken these kinds of violations very, very seriously in the past.
Looking back to the Manders incident, Manders and I are actually still on good terms, she knew that I was acting purely based on principle and with the utmost reluctance, and she respected that. It wasn't easy, but it was the right thing to do.
I'd like to get some more information on this situation, such as the circumstances surrounding the post where Proph came clean, their reasons for posting as a hydra, and did this happen before or after his mod status kicked in, and I'd like to hear from Proph himself and make sure he has a chance to comment, and to give site admin an opportunity to weigh in on this.
This may also have a bearing on Megiddo's and Chemtrail's status as well. Running an illicit hydra goes beyond flaming to potentially undermine the integrity of the game itself, it's an extremely disruptive and unfair practice that needs to be strictly discouraged. I don't think it's good policy to set an example that running an illicit hydra won't result in meaningful, decisive consequences.
Quote from Azrael »
Ahhh. Reading the circumstances of the game in greater detail now. So the hydra accounts were authorized, BUT the mod required each player to sign for their posts. A rule they intentionally violated. Hmm.
So it was a mod-specific rule that was broken - technically. But still very problematic.
As always in these kinds of difficult situations, we welcome input from the community.
The masses have spoken, and mini-games are in extremely high demand under the new rolling queue system. I've just been informed that we have only a single person remaining on the mini signups list at present (or possibly only one person ready to fire).
If you're looking to host a game, now's the time to crank out a mini.
why are you not just contacting us directly instead of spewing this all over the forum?
I would have been happy to chat about this but now all I will tell you is that I completely stand by my post and the sentiments contained within. Also I take full responsibility for the hydra goofiness; that was not Proph's idea whatsoever.
>I'd like to get some more information on this situation sure you do.
I have a couple of minis kicking around that I can get ready to run, incidentally.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
why are you not just contacting us directly instead of spewing this all over the forum?
I would have been happy to chat about this but now all I will tell you is that I completely stand by my post and the sentiments contained within. Also I take full responsibility for the hydra goofiness; that was not Proph's idea whatsoever.
>I'd like to get some more information on this situation sure you do.
I have a couple of minis kicking around that I can get ready to run, incidentally.
All council disciplinary decisions are subject to public review and comment from start to finish, and always have been. We've never wanted a closed door system of smokey rooms where you have no idea what anyone is saying for or against you, have no chance to respond, and where the community itself is voiceless in the process. If people think that we're taking this too seriously, we need to hear that. If people think this kind of activity is problematic for the integrity of our games, we need to hear that too.
If you look back over the history of the thread, you'll find that we keep an open mind and take the community's thoughts on these (and pretty much every other issue) very seriously, to the point that even Nakamura, very much against my better judgment, nearly escaped his perma-ban due to community sentiments. Up to this point, we haven't had much input from either the balance of the council or the community, but I'm the only person who's chimed in on this situation so far who is fully loaded for bear and I'm not comfortable making the decision unilaterally.
With regards to Flamingo's behavior, it's my understanding that Proph had intended to play the game from the start, and be the only player making serious contributions. It was only meant as a simple prank and I'm sure Chemtrails and Proph had no idea that it was going to escalate as it did.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Regarding Proph, I've been advised that this occurred prior to his modding, which is a major point in his favor in my mind.
This is also the first time that any of these three players has been referred for possible disciplinary action. We've perma-banned players before over a single incident if it was considered severe enough, but repeated incidents, or a reason to believe that there would be repeated problems, was very much an important consideration.
To clarify, so far as the council is concerned, there isn't a pertinent difference between breaking a sub rule and a mod-specific rule, especially when there are concerns of fairness and game integrity brought into play. But looking at the situation through the eyes of Proph/Megs, it's possible that they might have seen it as a less weighty and serious issue because it was "only" a game mod rule. I don't know if that's how they saw it or not.
Taking off my impartial council-member hat for the moment, I REALLY don't want to lose Proph, I suspect it was a one-time issue and that it was more a case of what Megs suggested, acceding to a bad idea discussed by the group. He's never been a problem player, very much the opposite in fact. But given that we've perma-banned in the past for similar actions, and given his mod status, I don't want to either engage in playing favorites behind closed doors, or create that appearance, so I don't think sweeping this under the rug with a verbal would have been the right decision.
Especially if we wind up taking a different tack on Megs and Chemtrails.
In Megs' favor, perhaps he viewed this game a bit less seriously since it was a clan affair? He's also been a long-time player with no integrity issues prior to this, and while's he's recently been brought to our attention regarding flaming issues, a lot of other players have flamed and the primary consequence has been discipline via the moderation staff, which I understand has already taken place here.
I'd also note that the game mod in question, Bur, didn't think the issue rated even a mod-kill of the participants. Which is hard for me to grok, but worth mentioning.
In reading the thread, I did note that the possibility of adding the participants to the mafia blacklist was raised by at least one other player in that game, and there was a very significant negative reaction from the entire playerbase to those hijinks.
I feel like it's fair to point out, also, that neither Proph nor Chemtrails flamed anybody during said game. The bar isn't exactly the same for the three of them, at present.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I feel like it's fair to point out, also, that neither Proph nor Chemtrails flamed anybody during said game. The bar isn't exactly the same for the three of them, at present.
True. Although I suppose there's a fair argument that the flaming is a separate issue, already adjudicated, that shouldn't be considered in tandem with the hydra issue at all, but simply as the incidental mechanism which brought the issue to light.
The counterpoint to that is that Megs clearly doesn't seem to be taking either the flaming or the hydra issue seriously, and isn't exactly the slightest bit repentant over flaming the hell out of another player.
my days of taking things on the internet too seriously are way past, though if you still feel like doing so go for it. i've said my piece and since you apparently blew by my post and have no intention of talking with me about this issue i don't see a need to talk to you about it.
don't punish proph in any way, i browbeat him into the hydra prank and he didn't want to do it. if you continue to not listen to me i will produce skype chat logs that prove his role in the prank was reluctant at best.
other than that do as you will.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
my days of taking things on the internet too seriously are way past, though if you still feel like doing so go for it. i've said my piece and since you apparently blew by my post and have no intention of talking with me about this issue i don't see a need to talk to you about it.
don't punish proph in any way, i browbeat him into the hydra prank and he didn't want to do it. if you continue to not listen to me i will produce skype chat logs that prove his role in the prank was reluctant at best.
other than that do as you will.
I've responded directly to your post, and referred to things you've said in it in a few different places, and if there's any other portion of your post you'd like me to respond to, feel free to point it out.
I'd love to see the Skype logs, actually.
And sure, this is a game of forum mafia and not a life or death issue. But there's a certain minimum bar of respecting the rules, taking them seriously, and abiding by them that has to be enforced if the game is going to continue to exist. We can't simply says "forum mafia, lolz!" and do whatever we please and expect there to still be a forum for people to come to after a while.
Likewise, we can't simply blacklist or probate people without a fair and open discussion, as that also tends to rub people the wrong way. For some mysterious reason.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Two cents: offensive behavior should be pointed by site moderation. Nothing here from a game integrity standpoint is enough for a one time offense perm-banning, IMO.
Posted that quickly and should probably elaborate.
It's hard to quantify levels of offensiveness. I certainly might react more negatively toward certain comments than I would others, and certain topics will be considered more inflammatory by others depending on the audience - so I think that offensive content should be reported and moderated through overall MTGS site moderation (as we've been doing) and we shouldn't really police the severity with any more action than the moderators would take based on the site's policies around that.
As for the hydra issue, I think there's a big difference between actions that are against the spirit of the game and actions that intentionally compromise the integrity of the game. I think this was the first. The behavior was against the rules and was intentionally deceptive, but I see it as much different in severity than something that renders the game moot from a competitive standpoint like... crypto-claiming or discussing alignment OOG intentionally, posting spoilers in thread, etc, etc.
The latter are ban worthy, IMO, the former aren't as a first time offense.
I think that's a valid distinction to bear in mind. However, it seems as if pretending to be only a single person, when in fact you are three different people, very clearly compromises the ability of the players to do behavioral analysis, and thereby directly compromises integrity of the game.
Agreed, but not to the same degree, IMO. And I don't think that was the purpose of the behavior either. It was to troll rather than to gain competitive advantage.
Which, still not good, sure, but there's a pretty distinct line there to me.
I personally think that nobody needs to be "made an example of", so to speak; at least, not this time.
There have been an influx of toxic posts and anger flares and civility issues as of late. I think it would be fair to say that the next time something like this comes up, the person responsible will be Blacklisted for a full cycle of games (3 Minis, a Normal, a Specialty, and possibly an FTQ), no questions asked, regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done before.
It may seem a bit Draconian but I think the "Have Fun, Or Else" policy is a stance we should be taking right now. This can serve as a warning to players that we are on high alert, and will punish indiscriminately if need be.
I'll let more people weigh in on this, though.
We should also probably have the next CCM NOT use hydras, as very few people actually seem to enjoy it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So, I know a large portion of this topic is about the use of one name for 3 people on a hydra - but it's clear that a big problem that Azrael (and others(?)) have here is the flaming.
I would just like to point out that, from what I've seen over the last ~5 years that I've been on this forum (I have well over 5000 posts across my accounts, and I've seen a lot - I usually at least skimmed through the games I wasn't playing when I was playing a lot, and I was once a regular around other parts of the forums), Generic has been the most flame-inducing player around. I've seen more players get warnings while flaming Generic than I've seen against anyone else (even more flames than I've seen people induce on the Standard forums ) - and most of those players who flamed Generic, as far as I've seen, rarely - if ever - were warned for flaming anyone else in their time being here.
I'm pointing out that maybe it'd be nice to look at the source of a lot of problems rather than going around trying to bop every problem that springs up from it. (And no, I don't want to have an argument about this, Generic)
Also, in regards to 3 people signing as the same person - how is this much different, if at all, from say: talking in a QuickTopic like everyone does in these hydra games, everyone collaborating on a post (or even just one person saying "post this"), and having only one person always write in the game thread? And I know people have done that before.
Let me acknowledge that I 100% broke a rule with the "impersonating one person as three people" thing. We only intended to joke/troll/have fun and I would have never thought that it would escalate to something like this. If this needs to be disciplined, then I'm willing to accept that fact.
@Sins: Do you believe that Generic acts in such a way to intentionally draw aggro flaming? If so, please cite examples of this. If not, I have no reason to believe that this isn't simply one person's personality/playstyle mingling poorly with a lot of others'.
Also, in my time as a mod, if anyone has broken a rule and deserved a card, I have made sure that they received it, since it seems like you may be calling into question the integrity of my modding and possibly even hinting at favoritism. If not, I apologize for misinterpreting your tone - but hell, I've carded my own brother when he broke the rules.
As for the difference with regards to the QT/Hydra deal, it's dishonest because you think you're trying to read one player attempting to carry out juxtaposing actions when it's actually several. It's dishonest and impedes the scumhunting process, whereas with 1 person making a post with the thoughts of 3 people in it, you at least know why the discrepancy is there.
If you have any further questions about this particular matter, I recommend you read the section of the game in question if you have not already done so for some context.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Sins: Do you believe that Generic acts in such a way to intentionally draw aggro flaming? If so, please cite examples of this. If not, I have no reason to believe that this isn't simply one person's personality/playstyle mingling poorly with a lot of others'.
Does it being intentional or not change that much? Just like Bertoncini being banned in MTG - some people still think he was just super sloppy all the time - but at a certain point, does it matter if he cheated intentionally or was just the sloppiest player imaginable? If he's trying to get people to flame him, or if his personality and consistent actions are that of which makes people flame him or get very upset on the regular, is there much of a difference?
And I'm not calling into question modding integrity - I'm just stating that Generic induces a LOT of flaming, even from players who normally never flame. (I must point out though, that I do recall being warned for flaming once while saying something to Generic that I've said to a dozen other players and never got a reprimand for - from either a mod or the other players. It wasn't even close to flaming in my eyes, but I'm sure that he reported it and mods just followed through, where as I'd imagine no one had ever reported it before (and no, I don't recall the specific wording or game it was in, as it was probably close to 2 years ago at this point).)
As for the difference with regards to the QT/Hydra deal, it's dishonest because you think you're trying to read one player attempting to carry out juxtaposing actions when it's actually several. It's dishonest and impedes the scumhunting process, whereas with 1 person making a post with the thoughts of 3 people in it, you at least know why the discrepancy is there.
I still really don't see much difference between that and:
Talking in a QuickTopic like everyone does in these hydra games, everyone collaborating on a post (or even just one person saying "post this"), and having only one person always write in the game thread
The latter of which is totally acceptable and has been done. The difference being, the players sometimes talk about it first in the QT in the second example (which they just as well could do in the first too, tbh), and in the first they don't. (As well as having one person PHYSICALLY press the "Post Reply" button in the second, where multiple do in the first - but that is completely irrelevant in my opinion.)
I'm not really at liberty to discuss who has reported what but I assure you that every post I see that I feel should get a card does. Also, sometimes a report is what it takes for me to notice a post was worded a little strongly, because when it's not directed towards me, I sometimes don't understand the full brunt of impact it may have on someone else. I also admit that I really just don't have the time or patience to read over every single post that gets made in every game we run, and sometimes, I glaze over some details in the larger ones. Could I improve in that respect? Probably. But if you feel a post should be carded - even your own - please flag it so a Moderator or higher up can address it.
As far as Generic is concerned, what exactly are you suggesting we so? Tell him, "Don't be so flame-inducing"?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't know what the best course of action is - but I just wanted to let it be known that I think that someone who induces so many flame warnings out of otherwise friendly and non-flaming players (and has been for over two years I believe it is at this point), and has made myself and others that I've talked to actually STOP joining games because he's in them, has effectively no marks against him, yet all of these otherwise friendly players are racking up warnings, and in some cases even suspensions.
Something about that seems wrong to me. If you disagree, I'm fine with continuing to only pop back here occasionally, but it definitely feels like a problem in my eyes - and I've talked to others, so I know it isn't just me.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Just my two cents, having read the last couple pages of this thread and not the game in question.
From what I can tell the Flaming was taken care of my MTGS staff. That's handled. Its the game specific (and possibly Mafia sub) rules that were violated that are still to be resolved.
So far Proph has been a person of integrity, coming clean and apologizing for the actions that have lead to this inquiry, as well as being accepting of any punishment should one be handed out. To me this shows a sincerity of remorse. While that should not mean the council just looks the other way, it should mean that some leniency be given. I would recommend a warning, possibly a probation period of no more than 6 months.
Chemtrails from what I can see has not weighed in at all. I would recommend a probation period of 6 months - 1 year starting from the next game that Chem was to /in.
Megiddo, on the other hand, while admitting guilt, has shown no remorse, acting as if the actions that took place are no big deal, and with a break planned anyway that no more action is needed from the council. In this thread alone, Meg has laughed this all off as a joke, been disrespectful of the council (Az in particular), and shows a total lack of taking this situation seriously. This all, combined with the actions that lead to this inquiry in the first place leads me to believe that given the chance, Meg would repeat these behaviors. I would recommend a probation period of no less than 1 year, starting upon the next game Meg was to /in.
All of the above recommendations would be subject to harsher punishments being enforced should further violations occur during the probationary periods.
I'd view the above as a very harsh punishment. Agreed on the flaming part being taken care of, so that's not really in the discussion regarding the issue any longer, for me.
I get the sense that all parties involved viewed the hydra thing as a prank with various levels of feeling bad about it (ranging from considerably to not) - but I still don't get the impression that anyone is likely to repeat that action... and, if they did, at that time harsher action would be appropriate considering the discussion that's taking place now so... cross that bridge?
It was also done in a clan game with all hydras, which I think lends more to the mindset that a prank like that wouldn't be viewed as seriously.
Personally, I don't think any kind of game sign up or hosting limitation is the appropriate course of action here considering all of the circumstances... and, if that is the route others want to go... that it's a shorter length of time. A year suspension might as well be a perm-ban, IMO, as the person is likely just to start playing elsewhere if they want to keep playing, or will move on. Should it come up again from a spirit of the game standpoint, then absolutely.
I doubt you all need me to post (and, let's be honest, if you, me, Generic, Rhand all posted from the same hydra I'd even have trouble reading it and I'd have access to the role PM) but I'll be happy to follow along/give reads in the chat.
Which is the other, is it mine?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModSorry man, if I participate it'll definitely be to help my clan. I just, I dunno, I have a hard time getting into playing with hydras. Looks like you're only one away from launching, though.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Nice choice.
The Family
"I get that being an ass is considered a 'legit playstyle' in this game, but c'mon people! there is a point where you arent playing and just being an ass for the sake of being an ass.
Requesting review of Megs and imabusinessman."
Are there any particular posts you'd like to present?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This man speaks the truth!
I've reviewed the posts in question and I'm not lol'ing.
They may not be blacklist worthy, but the line my own mind has always that's it's ok to criticize bad play, but not to haze the player. I'd rather we keep a tighter leash on that. One of our chief selling points has always been that we have a more pleasant environment and better sportsmanship than other mafia sites, and hazing players for mistakes won't exactly help bring flocks of players to our doors, or help us keep the players we already have. Make sense?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
There's an exception to that rule for reporting flaming or sportsmanship issues. And even if you were going to leave permanently, I think it's important for not only Sepiriel, but for the playerbase as a whole to be reminded that we would like to keep things civil, polite, and in a healthy spirit of fun to the best of our ability. I need that reminder myself from time to time.
"hey go piss up a rope you autistic *******"
Which might just be the single most offensive post I've ever read in a game of mafia in ten years.
As far as I'm concerned, ALL available disciplinary options are available for consideration. Mafia runs on an honor system - a cold and calculating decision to violate that honor system is a very serious matter, which we've dealt with very harshly on the past occasions where it has come to light.
We'll be gathering more information on the situation, and keep you posted.
With Proph being recently promoted to moderator, the situation is further complicated. In the spirit of transparency, I'm including my own views on the subject from the council cave.
As always in these kinds of difficult situations, we welcome input from the community.
The masses have spoken, and mini-games are in extremely high demand under the new rolling queue system. I've just been informed that we have only a single person remaining on the mini signups list at present (or possibly only one person ready to fire).
If you're looking to host a game, now's the time to crank out a mini.
I would have been happy to chat about this but now all I will tell you is that I completely stand by my post and the sentiments contained within. Also I take full responsibility for the hydra goofiness; that was not Proph's idea whatsoever.
>I'd like to get some more information on this situation
I have a couple of minis kicking around that I can get ready to run, incidentally.
All council disciplinary decisions are subject to public review and comment from start to finish, and always have been. We've never wanted a closed door system of smokey rooms where you have no idea what anyone is saying for or against you, have no chance to respond, and where the community itself is voiceless in the process. If people think that we're taking this too seriously, we need to hear that. If people think this kind of activity is problematic for the integrity of our games, we need to hear that too.
If you look back over the history of the thread, you'll find that we keep an open mind and take the community's thoughts on these (and pretty much every other issue) very seriously, to the point that even Nakamura, very much against my better judgment, nearly escaped his perma-ban due to community sentiments. Up to this point, we haven't had much input from either the balance of the council or the community, but I'm the only person who's chimed in on this situation so far who is fully loaded for bear and I'm not comfortable making the decision unilaterally.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is also the first time that any of these three players has been referred for possible disciplinary action. We've perma-banned players before over a single incident if it was considered severe enough, but repeated incidents, or a reason to believe that there would be repeated problems, was very much an important consideration.
To clarify, so far as the council is concerned, there isn't a pertinent difference between breaking a sub rule and a mod-specific rule, especially when there are concerns of fairness and game integrity brought into play. But looking at the situation through the eyes of Proph/Megs, it's possible that they might have seen it as a less weighty and serious issue because it was "only" a game mod rule. I don't know if that's how they saw it or not.
Taking off my impartial council-member hat for the moment, I REALLY don't want to lose Proph, I suspect it was a one-time issue and that it was more a case of what Megs suggested, acceding to a bad idea discussed by the group. He's never been a problem player, very much the opposite in fact. But given that we've perma-banned in the past for similar actions, and given his mod status, I don't want to either engage in playing favorites behind closed doors, or create that appearance, so I don't think sweeping this under the rug with a verbal would have been the right decision.
Especially if we wind up taking a different tack on Megs and Chemtrails.
In Megs' favor, perhaps he viewed this game a bit less seriously since it was a clan affair? He's also been a long-time player with no integrity issues prior to this, and while's he's recently been brought to our attention regarding flaming issues, a lot of other players have flamed and the primary consequence has been discipline via the moderation staff, which I understand has already taken place here.
I'd also note that the game mod in question, Bur, didn't think the issue rated even a mod-kill of the participants. Which is hard for me to grok, but worth mentioning.
In reading the thread, I did note that the possibility of adding the participants to the mafia blacklist was raised by at least one other player in that game, and there was a very significant negative reaction from the entire playerbase to those hijinks.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
True. Although I suppose there's a fair argument that the flaming is a separate issue, already adjudicated, that shouldn't be considered in tandem with the hydra issue at all, but simply as the incidental mechanism which brought the issue to light.
The counterpoint to that is that Megs clearly doesn't seem to be taking either the flaming or the hydra issue seriously, and isn't exactly the slightest bit repentant over flaming the hell out of another player.
don't punish proph in any way, i browbeat him into the hydra prank and he didn't want to do it. if you continue to not listen to me i will produce skype chat logs that prove his role in the prank was reluctant at best.
other than that do as you will.
I've responded directly to your post, and referred to things you've said in it in a few different places, and if there's any other portion of your post you'd like me to respond to, feel free to point it out.
I'd love to see the Skype logs, actually.
And sure, this is a game of forum mafia and not a life or death issue. But there's a certain minimum bar of respecting the rules, taking them seriously, and abiding by them that has to be enforced if the game is going to continue to exist. We can't simply says "forum mafia, lolz!" and do whatever we please and expect there to still be a forum for people to come to after a while.
Likewise, we can't simply blacklist or probate people without a fair and open discussion, as that also tends to rub people the wrong way. For some mysterious reason.
i'll deal with other council members regarding this issue from here on out.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
edit: nothing in this thread anyway. feel free to pm me or whatever if you want to discuss this with me.
I would say go ahead and provide the Skype logs for posterity, assuming Proph consents.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
It's hard to quantify levels of offensiveness. I certainly might react more negatively toward certain comments than I would others, and certain topics will be considered more inflammatory by others depending on the audience - so I think that offensive content should be reported and moderated through overall MTGS site moderation (as we've been doing) and we shouldn't really police the severity with any more action than the moderators would take based on the site's policies around that.
As for the hydra issue, I think there's a big difference between actions that are against the spirit of the game and actions that intentionally compromise the integrity of the game. I think this was the first. The behavior was against the rules and was intentionally deceptive, but I see it as much different in severity than something that renders the game moot from a competitive standpoint like... crypto-claiming or discussing alignment OOG intentionally, posting spoilers in thread, etc, etc.
The latter are ban worthy, IMO, the former aren't as a first time offense.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Which, still not good, sure, but there's a pretty distinct line there to me.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I personally think that nobody needs to be "made an example of", so to speak; at least, not this time.
There have been an influx of toxic posts and anger flares and civility issues as of late. I think it would be fair to say that the next time something like this comes up, the person responsible will be Blacklisted for a full cycle of games (3 Minis, a Normal, a Specialty, and possibly an FTQ), no questions asked, regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done before.
It may seem a bit Draconian but I think the "Have Fun, Or Else" policy is a stance we should be taking right now. This can serve as a warning to players that we are on high alert, and will punish indiscriminately if need be.
I'll let more people weigh in on this, though.
We should also probably have the next CCM NOT use hydras, as very few people actually seem to enjoy it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I would just like to point out that, from what I've seen over the last ~5 years that I've been on this forum (I have well over 5000 posts across my accounts, and I've seen a lot - I usually at least skimmed through the games I wasn't playing when I was playing a lot, and I was once a regular around other parts of the forums), Generic has been the most flame-inducing player around. I've seen more players get warnings while flaming Generic than I've seen against anyone else (even more flames than I've seen people induce on the Standard forums
I'm pointing out that maybe it'd be nice to look at the source of a lot of problems rather than going around trying to bop every problem that springs up from it. (And no, I don't want to have an argument about this, Generic)
Also, in regards to 3 people signing as the same person - how is this much different, if at all, from say: talking in a QuickTopic like everyone does in these hydra games, everyone collaborating on a post (or even just one person saying "post this"), and having only one person always write in the game thread?
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Curse PremiumAlso, in my time as a mod, if anyone has broken a rule and deserved a card, I have made sure that they received it, since it seems like you may be calling into question the integrity of my modding and possibly even hinting at favoritism. If not, I apologize for misinterpreting your tone - but hell, I've carded my own brother when he broke the rules.
As for the difference with regards to the QT/Hydra deal, it's dishonest because you think you're trying to read one player attempting to carry out juxtaposing actions when it's actually several. It's dishonest and impedes the scumhunting process, whereas with 1 person making a post with the thoughts of 3 people in it, you at least know why the discrepancy is there.
If you have any further questions about this particular matter, I recommend you read the section of the game in question if you have not already done so for some context.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Does it being intentional or not change that much? Just like Bertoncini being banned in MTG - some people still think he was just super sloppy all the time - but at a certain point, does it matter if he cheated intentionally or was just the sloppiest player imaginable? If he's trying to get people to flame him, or if his personality and consistent actions are that of which makes people flame him or get very upset on the regular, is there much of a difference?
And I'm not calling into question modding integrity - I'm just stating that Generic induces a LOT of flaming, even from players who normally never flame. (I must point out though, that I do recall being warned for flaming once while saying something to Generic that I've said to a dozen other players and never got a reprimand for - from either a mod or the other players. It wasn't even close to flaming in my eyes, but I'm sure that he reported it and mods just followed through, where as I'd imagine no one had ever reported it before (and no, I don't recall the specific wording or game it was in, as it was probably close to 2 years ago at this point).)
I still really don't see much difference between that and:
The latter of which is totally acceptable and has been done. The difference being, the players sometimes talk about it first in the QT in the second example (which they just as well could do in the first too, tbh), and in the first they don't. (As well as having one person PHYSICALLY press the "Post Reply" button in the second, where multiple do in the first - but that is completely irrelevant in my opinion.)
As far as Generic is concerned, what exactly are you suggesting we so? Tell him, "Don't be so flame-inducing"?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Something about that seems wrong to me. If you disagree, I'm fine with continuing to only pop back here occasionally, but it definitely feels like a problem in my eyes - and I've talked to others, so I know it isn't just me.
In fairness, I do recall getting quite frustrated with you in a number of our games together.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
From what I can tell the Flaming was taken care of my MTGS staff. That's handled. Its the game specific (and possibly Mafia sub) rules that were violated that are still to be resolved.
So far Proph has been a person of integrity, coming clean and apologizing for the actions that have lead to this inquiry, as well as being accepting of any punishment should one be handed out. To me this shows a sincerity of remorse. While that should not mean the council just looks the other way, it should mean that some leniency be given. I would recommend a warning, possibly a probation period of no more than 6 months.
Chemtrails from what I can see has not weighed in at all. I would recommend a probation period of 6 months - 1 year starting from the next game that Chem was to /in.
Megiddo, on the other hand, while admitting guilt, has shown no remorse, acting as if the actions that took place are no big deal, and with a break planned anyway that no more action is needed from the council. In this thread alone, Meg has laughed this all off as a joke, been disrespectful of the council (Az in particular), and shows a total lack of taking this situation seriously. This all, combined with the actions that lead to this inquiry in the first place leads me to believe that given the chance, Meg would repeat these behaviors. I would recommend a probation period of no less than 1 year, starting upon the next game Meg was to /in.
All of the above recommendations would be subject to harsher punishments being enforced should further violations occur during the probationary periods.
The Family
I get the sense that all parties involved viewed the hydra thing as a prank with various levels of feeling bad about it (ranging from considerably to not) - but I still don't get the impression that anyone is likely to repeat that action... and, if they did, at that time harsher action would be appropriate considering the discussion that's taking place now so... cross that bridge?
It was also done in a clan game with all hydras, which I think lends more to the mindset that a prank like that wouldn't be viewed as seriously.
Personally, I don't think any kind of game sign up or hosting limitation is the appropriate course of action here considering all of the circumstances... and, if that is the route others want to go... that it's a shorter length of time. A year suspension might as well be a perm-ban, IMO, as the person is likely just to start playing elsewhere if they want to keep playing, or will move on. Should it come up again from a spirit of the game standpoint, then absolutely.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player