MTG Salvation

Quote from Iso

If such were implemented regarding # of games a player is in, I would recommend making it an extension of the Active Player List that is in the PCL thread, perhaps parenthetically next to each player's name on the list. Of course, all gimmicks would then have to report to Void.

I would gladly take this on as well. I don't forsee any issues coming from this and believe the idea to be grand.

Just keep me informed of the proceedings.

I dig this idea, and I want to announce my next game features to start the pre-ins early so no one is caught without free time when it starts. How do I proceed now? Game will be AWESOME.

Rolling Signups:

I am pretty sure previous conclusions have been that these are a bad idea. We cut the rolling sign ups for basics because they were consuming players, and the rolling mini queue didn't work either.

There are also the more theoretical arguments (which are reasonably supported by the previous attempts) which suggest that players will overcommit themselves to rolling signups, resulting in a high game start rate, but also a high dropout/lower activity rate.

Rolling signups should only be necessary if there is genuine, large demand for lots of games. Not just a small group of players who want to play in as many games as possible, but a large number of mostly unique players who find it hard to get into a game. This is really not the case, and until someone can produce numbers from the PCL that demonstrate it, I think rolling sign ups not only unnecessary, but also potentially harmful to the forum.

Pre-ins
Officially setting up pre-ins seems kind of pointless. Highly anticipated games would often be entirely full before signups were even posted. I can see the point if signups closed as soon as a game hit the required number of players: pre-ins help avoid you missing out or getting screwed by time zones. However, with our system that gives players ample time to sign up, pre-ins just functionally make signups start before the game has even begun.

If games fired automatically after a number of pre-ins, I see this only really function to accelerate well-known and respected mods up the queue. We already have the FTQ for accelerating games, and that review system is fairer to newer mods.

If the point of it is try and work out exactly how much demand we have for particular upcoming games...isn't that precisely what the Player Contact List is for? I mean, thinking about it, the Player Contact List basically already is a pre-in system.

It just seems like an awful lot of effort and book-keeping to go through to do something which we already are doing, and doesn't really provide any benefit to the player (since they have days to see signups and join).


Nakamura
Az's 7549 sums it up. He possessed basically no capacity for the sportmanship or mutual respect upon which this game relies. He lied repeatedly, and was destructive to pretty much every game he played.
He remains on the blacklist, and stands very little chance of every being removed.

/barn Eco completely on all matters mentioned.

How about this:

We simply add another category to the PCL: "Actively looking for a new game".

For all the people who are just burning to get their mafia fix scratched. That will help us differentiate between the people who just want to get pinged, and the people who will be guaranteed /ins.

It'd probably take the format of:

Azrael (Minis)
Eco (Any)
Toastboy (Mini, Normal)
Fadeblue (PCQ)

And, it would probably need updated more regularly.

Rolling Signups:
I think rolling signups are the best way to make games happen. Give the players what they want. Rolling signups just "failed" before because it was restricted to minis and basics therefore syphoning all players to those games, because they were the only option for people who wanted to play. I think if all games used RSGNs it could work beautifully.

Pre-ins
I think you missed the point Eco, pre-ins are not to make game filled, they are a way to advertise future games to make people aware they are coming. For example, imagine I'm a big Xyre fan, my personal max is two games and I'm in one, a cute game appears and I join. Right after that a Xyre game opens and I'm stuck because I don't replace out. Now I can play on my favorite mod game because I had no idea his game was so near. If one month before his game run it started doing pre-ins I would have stayed out of the cute game and waited for his.

Besides pre-ins are not to occupy all slots, just a max of 20% or so. This way the people that really want to play will reserve time, and prepare ahead to be free when their anticipated game arrives.

I vote no to rolling signups, and I'm pretty sure we had that argument before. I also vote no to pre ins. Why woukd we ever need a pre in?

Again, here you guys go trying to solve non-existant problems.

I say no to rolling sign ups. The last time the community had it people were bogged down in too many games and when replacements were needed, they were not available.

Pre-in's are very different then Player contact list. Pre/in is a guarantee you will be in the game. I also think (so sorry I didn't see who started the discussion) mentioned that when people do pre/in the game will only take so many pre/in's. Usually that number is half/the number of players needed to start. Mafiascum I believed lowed that number more because people thought they missed out on the game because how quickly signups go. I'm thinking that maybe, lets say a 12 player game can take no more then 4 pre-in's and anyone else either going to have to hope the game does not exceed the number of player or hope random.org doesn't take them out of the game.

My problem with the Player Contact List, is that it doesn't not really say who is ready to play now, just that people want to be notified when a game starts.

Now for an issue I have.

Quote from Ecophagy

Right now, the Council are in discussion with the League judges to work out how we can best proceed. It's not quite all wrapped up, but what I can say is that - once Chimes finishes - all Normal games will functionally become League games - they will all conform to the new Normal rules, which gives a more uniform and less complex platform from which to test and improve your skill, which will be assisted competitively through the League scoring.

The separate League PCQ will cease to exist, except for corner cases like excessive demand. In future, we want to try and integrate the League into the existing queue system (and maybe even minis), rather than have it as something separate, sitting on top of the forum.

I have no desire to join the League, but I want to play a normal game. Why is there no separation between the 2? I have to hope that not every person joining is part of the league to play a normal game? How is that fair?

Quote from Azrael

How about this:

We simply add another category to the PCL: "Actively looking for a new game".

For all the people who are just burning to get their mafia fix scratched. That will help us differentiate between the people who just want to get pinged, and the people who will be guaranteed /ins.

It'd probably take the format of:

Azrael (Minis)
Eco (Any)
Toastboy (Mini, Normal)
Fadeblue (PCQ)

And, it would probably need updated more regularly.

I feel like this or any similar solution should be done programmatically. It would not be hard to write a script that would let people say they're actively looking for a game in specific queues, and to have those expire after a fixed period of time (say, a month). This would have very little load on the server, but if it's a concern it can be done offsite.

I also think the thread should be called "New Player Sign-up Thread! (Contact List & Replacement Requests)."

I actively went looking for the thread and couldn't find it. It's really hard to find with all the sticky threads.

As people know I've been an advocate for rolling sign-ups for well since ever. In the interest of compromise I purpose the following system which I believe takes the best of all worlds in that it allows for rolling sign-ups in a way, but shouldn't strain the playerbase.

First off the current system will stay in place, as my proposal is more of an addition to the current system than an overhaul. By that I mean we will still have only one sign-up at a time and will shoot for having 3 mini games, 1 specialty, etc.

Second I believe we should have a sort of modified rolling sign-up in a way. I'll be using a mini for my example to explain it.

My idea is that if their are no sign-ups currently open a "pre" sign-up where the next person on the "mini" list posts a pre-sign-up thread. Only people in zero or one games can sign-up in this pre sign-up thread. The zero or one game limit should make sure that we are straining the playerbase to the most minimal amount, while still allowing a sort of rolling sign-up. Once the thread reaches a certain threshold of pre-sign-ups the sign-ups are then open to general sign-ups. For these post-pre-sign-up-threads only players with zero games get automatically priority over one game players while one game players get auto-priority over two game players. This way of /in for the pre-sign-ups allows for the nature of the pre-sign-up to be preserved without auto-inning all pre-sign-uppers.

For example:

• There are currently no sign-ups running.
• Because of this X Mafia, a mini, opens pre-sign-ups.
• The threshold is 75%, for example, which is 9 players.
• 9 players in only one or zero games signs-up for the pre-sign-ups.
• The pre-sign-ups then shift to sign-ups allowing for all to sign-up.
• If a sign-up slot for a mini opens before pre-sign-ups is finished, X Mafia converts to a regular sign-ups, with the pre-ins converting to regular /ins.

The nice thing about this is that these extra games will be fired on need, rather than desire, which should put a minimal extra strain on the playerbase. If we do do this I suggest starting with a mini first for purposes of seeing how well it works.

So your solution is to essentially open signups for the next game early to gauge interest. I'm okay with testing this to see if players like it.

I don't see any reason to even do that, though.

Quote from Zionite

So your solution is to essentially open signups for the next game early to gauge interest. I'm okay with testing this to see if players like it.

Pretty much, except restricting the interest gauge to those at zero or one games so we can see if their is a need for the game rather than a want.

Quote from Seppel

I also think the thread should be called "New Player Sign-up Thread! (Contact List & Replacement Requests)."

I actively went looking for the thread and couldn't find it. It's really hard to find with all the sticky threads.

*Nods* Done.

-Az

Quote from Iso

I don't see any reason to even do that, though.

We could always not change anything!

Also: any word on getting rid of nested quotes here? They still suck just as bad as the last time I brought it up. I just spent an hour on an ipad trying to quote posts. Thanks!

Once the site goes through it's overhaul the admin team will looking into adding a "Nested Quote" button near the "Quote" button that already exists.

Time frame is unknown at this time.

Quote from Void

Once the site goes through it's overhaul the admin team will looking into adding a "Nested Quote" button near the "Quote" button that already exists.

Time frame is unknown at this time.

Can you link me to some announcement about this?

Or do you speak for the admin team?

Quote from Iso

I don't see any reason to even do that, though.

Quote from Condoms

Quote from Iso

I don't see any reason to even do that, though.

We could always not change anything!

Also: any word on getting rid of nested quotes here? They still suck just as bad as the last time I brought it up. I just spent an hour on an ipad trying to quote posts. Thanks!

But there is great upside to doing it (letting people who aren't playing the ability to play soon rather than wait for a sign-up to come up) and little downside (since it is based on need it should have negligible strain on the playerbase.

As for the nested quotes, I don't know about any quotes or a nested quotes button, but I do remember a mod saying that they are holding off on the nested quote solutions until after they update.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10007337#post10007337

Slightly misspoken, kpaca, but it's coming.

Little harsh, brah.

Quote from Void

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10007337#post10007337

Slightly misspoken, kpaca, but it's coming.

Little harsh, brah.

Harsh? For all I know you're some sort of admin-mafia liason the way we invent new ways to give people titles in this sub

Sorry to offend you, thanks for the link.

Quote from Condoms

Quote from Void

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10007337#post10007337

Slightly misspoken, kpaca, but it's coming.

Little harsh, brah.

Harsh? For all I know you're some sort of admin-mafia liason the way we invent new ways to give people titles in this sub

Sorry to offend you, thanks for the link.

Lol, kpaca. Your questions for just a little more abbraisive that what I see from you, that's all.

We're good and you're welcome.

/barn kpaca on the current matters

Quote from Prophylaxis

This is something nitpicky, but could someone explain why the "3. Notes from a Newb: My Favorite Flavor is Vanilla" article in the articles thread is invalid?

Right at the bottom of that page, with that blue text that's really hard to read on a dark background.

There's something funky going on with some of our links that's triggered by weird mismatches in page-count.

Try this link and see if it works.

Quote from Prophylaxis

Quote from MafiaScribe

Quote from Seppel

I also think the thread should be called "New Player Sign-up Thread! (Contact List & Replacement Requests)."

I actively went looking for the thread and couldn't find it. It's really hard to find with all the sticky threads.

*Nods* Done.

-Az

This is something nitpicky, but could someone explain why the "3. Notes from a Newb: My Favorite Flavor is Vanilla" article in the articles thread is invalid?

Right at the bottom of that page, with that blue text that's really hard to read on a dark background.

This is because 2-3 years ago when I created that thread I did a sloppy job rerouting links from the old thread. Since the thread is closed, it'll need a mod tweak, now.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

The article you guys are talking about does not exist (anymore).

Did someone move the old thread to the Forbidden Zone?

Which thread?

Edit: Also, a proposal, since I don't really mind doing the extra work: To avoid modkills through ninja edits and accidental edits or things of that nature, if a player wants to fix a typo/quote formatting/aesthetic (such as EBWODP; not wording) error in a post, would it be fine if they PMed the game host and myself to either merge the posts in question or fix the typo or quote tags (since we're seeing that a lot with nested quotes) or whatever the problem is with permission of the game host (who could then determine whether or not the "fix" will have any bearing on the game)? I know we used to do something like that, and I'm sure there's a reason we stopped, I just don't know what that reason is and again, I don't mind being helpful with fixing simple formatting mistakes or merging an EBWODP with the previous post with permission of the game host - as I said, no words will be changed in the post(s).

Quote from Iso

To avoid modkills...

I don't recall us ever doing that, and I'm reasonably sure that it was because no one wanted to bother with the busywork considering the pros are minimal while the cons (accumulated over multiple players per game and multiple ongoing games) are significant.

I dont see a reason to fix our current systems of leave the tupos as they lie.

While that's a generous offer Iso, I would rather that not happen, since it requires us to trust the integrity of basically the entire game to you. You are of course trustworthy, but for the sake of fixing typos, it seems too much, especially since as a human you would be bound to make a mistake eventually (and I'd rather avoid the unpleasent possibility of someone blaming you making a mistake for why something incriminating has disappeared, or attempting to manipulate potentially deliberate mistakes and the resulting edits (breadcrumb of the century is a broken tag that Iso then fixes to make it invisible and deniable)).

It's also much easier to keep the rule to "don't edit ever" than "you can't edit, except in some cases Iso can do it for you" because that can only lead to confusion and players being more lax over making multiple posts or not checking tags.

No worries, makes sense to me. I figured I'd ask.

Quote from Azrael

This is because 2-3 years ago when I created that thread I did a sloppy job rerouting links from the old thread. Since the thread is closed, it'll need a mod tweak, now.

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

The article you guys are talking about does not exist (anymore).

Quote from Azrael

Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur

The article you guys are talking about does not exist (anymore).

Did someone move the old thread to the Forbidden Zone?

Doh!

Ok, I found the problem. The old thread was deleted four years ago (not inherently obvious btw when you just get plopped into it. :sweat:)

I've gone ahead and undeleted it for the time being.

I have sent Void a message RE: the replacement message that more or less everyone just got. For future reference, the Active Player List is only really for keeping track of the player base rather than for use as a mailing list. Hopefully in future we can avoid such spam-like messaged.

Unless people think this approach can be refined into a good idea? Or would people like to still only be informed of replacements (or starting games etc) on a strictly opt in basis?

Quote from Ecophagy

I have sent Void a message RE: the replacement message that more or less everyone just got. For future reference, the Active Player List is only really for keeping track of the player base rather than for use as a mailing list. Hopefully in future we can avoid such spam-like messaged.

Unless people think this approach can be refined into a good idea? Or would people like to still only be informed of replacements (or starting games etc) on a strictly opt in basis?

An Active Replacement List might be a good idea, if we are willing to maintain one.

Quote from AsianInvasion

Quote from Ecophagy

I have sent Void a message RE: the replacement message that more or less everyone just got. For future reference, the Active Player List is only really for keeping track of the player base rather than for use as a mailing list. Hopefully in future we can avoid such spam-like messaged.

Unless people think this approach can be refined into a good idea? Or would people like to still only be informed of replacements (or starting games etc) on a strictly opt in basis?

An Active Replacement List might be a good idea, if we are willing to maintain one.

Isn't that what the Replacements list (the one right above the Active Players list) is for?

Quote from fadeblue

Isn't that what the Replacements list (the one right above the Active Players list) is for?

Presumably. Which leads me to wonder why the users in the second list got PM'd.

Rick Santorum and Ganderin_Dan both have had replacements in their games already. I thought it was best to PM the Active Player List because of this. Next time I will contact the Council for permission rather than just jumping in and doing what I thought best.

I for one appreciated the heads up. *shrug* But yes, replacement list looks like the optimal choice.

Quote from Azrael

I for one appreciated the heads up. *shrug*

So far you are the only one. That includes PM's that I have been receiving.

I'll second that I appreciated it. I'd been looking to get into another game, and there haven't been too many sign-ups for new games lately.

My favorite part was when I got a request to replace into my own game

Whatever ya'll decide, you can add my name to whatever list. I don't mind getting messages like that at all.

Quote from Megiddo

My favorite part was when I got a request to replace into my own game

I've reviewed 4+ of the current games running and I got the message, as well.

We have a replacement list as a part of the PCL. The Active Player List should be used more as a gauge for amount of games we should be running than a "oh looks like no one is responding for a replacement request" thing. Modkills are a thing, you know.

Quote from Iso

Quote from Megiddo

My favorite part was when I got a request to replace into my own game

I've reviewed 4+ of the current games running and I got the message, as well.

We have a replacement list as a part of the PCL. The Active Player List should be used more as a gauge for amount of games we should be running than a "oh looks like no one is responding for a replacement request" thing. Modkills are a thing, you know.

Modkills should be avoided at all costs so long as the integerity of the game is not destroyed in the process.

I concur, but sometimes there just isn't anyone to replace in.

Quote from Iso

I concur, but sometimes there just isn't anyone to replace in.

So, we should let a Modkill happen becasue no one from the Replacement List contacted back?

No offense, Iso, but that approach is not benefical to the community here.

What is your solution when nobody responds to the replacement request and nobody makes a post in the PCL thread indicating that they want to replace in? Aside from PM every player who has played in a game in the past 6 months, of course.