I seem to remember several other sites that we found out he was banned on for basic trolling. Also shalako sigged when I am able to.
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Noooo. DV watched someone do something recently that reminded him of other things. And instead of and he decided he should say something about things that happened.
To be clear, its not that I don't believe that Naka should not have been banned. But he should not have been smeared the way he was. That is all.
I simply have a problem with some of the double standards that are sometimes present.
Anyways though please don't try and minimize what Cyan and Loran did. It wasn't fair and it was done to hurt on purpose and it succeeded to an extent. The fact that you think that it is ok says something about yourself as well sir.
When Loran had that in his sig, it was before this site started on the path of being too sensitive. Using gay as slang was not an offense at the time. And it's not something that was done intentionally to spite you, no matter what you think. I said something that Loran found funny, so he quoted it. It was a coincidence that it was something 'mean' regarding you. It's really hard to believe that you're still going on about it.
When Loran had that in his sig, it was before this site started on the path of being too sensitive. Using gay as slang was not an offense at the time. And it's not something that was done intentionally to spite you, no matter what you think. I said something that Loran found funny, so he quoted it. It was a coincidence that it was something 'mean' regarding you. It's really hard to believe that you're still going on about it.
The fact that you refuse to say,
"Hey I was wrong."
And I never talked about it then. I kept it to myself. I watched you say other rude things in this very thread about me. I only brought it up to facilitate a point. What you did was Cyber Bullying, it was wrong, and the fact that you think it was ok, says something about you.
And I never talked about it then. I kept it to myself. I watched you say other rude things in this very thread about me. I only brought it up to facilitate a point. What you did was Cyber Bullying, it was wrong, and the fact that you think it was ok, says something about you.
Hey look I'm alive. Also, DV, can we talk about this rationally for a second?
First of all, the sig was something like 8 sigs ago from me (It was, if i recall correctly, involving Camp Tachronic signups, so 3 years ago now).
Second of all, here was something like how the sig went, as a copy/pasting of an AIM convo:
loran: Saw you signed up for Camp Tachronic Mafia
Cyan: Yeah
loran: There's a nice group of guys signed up; AI,
loran: Some One,
loran: Andelijah,
loran: Bilbro
Cyan: Nice
loran: Oh, wait, also....DV
Cyan: ***
(Originally there weren't the astericks. After a mod PMed me, the word was replaced with astericks).
Now here's the thing - that sig? Isn't insulting. It was funny to me - that's why I posted it - but that's about it. So it showed that Cyan didn't like ya, so what? There's nothing against that in the forum. (Also Cyan wasn't calling you ***, if that even was an insult, he was calling the fact you were in the game derogatory. There's a difference). Cyan makes it clear who he doesn't like in this forum all the time.
tl;dr: The sig involved nothing insulting about you, other than expressing how Cyan thought about you - which again isn't an insult. Not offensive. Which is why the sig was fine after I removed the actual 3 letter word used.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I am against a mass claim day 1.
I have poked my head into Joss Whedon mafia. That has turned out horrible.
Ouch didn't know Cyan hated me that much.
So yeah you are right, its still offensive and it was still rude and unneeded. It also effected my behavior in that game because I would have done anything to make sure he was lynched as soon as I found out he was the SK.
I am being logical about this, and I fail to see why you guys are so ready to defend this. I am not wrong in saying it wasn't right and that it was hurtful and rude. You refuse to accept this. I literally don't care about it anymore, I only brought it up to facilitate a point, which is that I have watched as members were bullied(in my opinion) and others namely some of the members on this council did nothing about it. They actually did the opposite with the naka situation, they encouraged it.
The point is simple, personal attacks on Naka were not needed. It would have been simply enough to state that he broke the rules the end. The fact that a smear campaign was raised actually makes me question the legitimacy of his rule breaking, but that is beside the point. The point I was trying to make was that if we are taking past offenses people have committed and using them as part of our weight in evidence for banning members, then there is a lot of people that would fall into this category. I think we can all agree that would be silly at best. Basically what I want is an apology for what happened to naka, and a promise that personal attacks in the future will never be used by the mods or the council as a basis to ban someone.
I had a problem with it then and I decided to speak up about it now because of other reasons.
Actually a small look for it found the quote I was talking about it was it was the Xyre game. So, actually that was only like two years ago now.
So yeah you are right, its still offensive and it was still rude and unneeded. It also effected my behavior in that game because I would have done anything to make sure he was lynched as soon as I found out he was the SK.
I am being logical about this, and I fail to see why you guys are so ready to defend this. I am not wrong in saying it wasn't right and that it was hurtful and rude. You refuse to accept this. I literally don't care about it anymore, I only brought it up to facilitate a point, which is that I have watched as members were bullied(in my opinion) and others namely some of the members on this council did nothing about it. They actually did the opposite with the naka situation, they encouraged it.
The point is simple, personal attacks on Naka were not needed. It would have been simply enough to state that he broke the rules the end. The fact that a smear campaign was raised actually makes me question the legitimacy of his rule breaking, but that is beside the point. The point I was trying to make was that if we are taking past offenses people have committed and using them as part of our weight in evidence for banning members, then there is a lot of people that would fall into this category. I think we can all agree that would be silly at best. Basically what I want is an apology for what happened to naka, and a promise that personal attacks in the future will never be used by the mods or the council as a basis to ban someone.
I had a problem with it then and I decided to speak up about it now because of other reasons.
So someone insulted you, maliciously or not.
You have a few options. Be hurt about it and post like you have been, be hurt about it but let it go, or just don't worry about it.
In the long run, the last option will make you feel the best.
So yeah you are right, its still offensive and it was still rude and unneeded. It also effected my behavior in that game because I would have done anything to make sure he was lynched as soon as I found out he was the SK.
@DV: Please use PMs and/or moderator helpdesks to resolve any issue/s you may have. Thanks in advance.
To change the topic, it appears that being "thanked" does not result in any notification, so it's an ineffective alternative to "/barn." I would discourage the usage of this system within most games of Mafia, but keep the door open in case a game host wants to explore "thanking" as a game mechanic.
Why is this conversation still going on? I recommended you stop posting here, the council has asked you to stop, and now I am requesting that this stops. The Council Thread is not the place to air petty feuds with other players, especially ones where the time to bring them up was years ago.
DV, if you wish to continue this conversation, bring it to PM or helpdesks, as AI requested.
He isn't talking about seeking punishment for those who had fun at his expense. He's iterating a point about a larger trend in the sub forum about a lack of accountability when the ad hom gets too rough. If you seriously think DV is talking about any one person in particular, you are mistaken and completely missing his point.
Personally I could not care any less about the mud slinging that sometimes happens. But I do care about mods completely ignoring or misrepresenting the concerns of the players in the only thread intended for such a discussion.
Obviously to prove his point, yes that is what he would need. I just feel that grievances should be heard out and debated on rather than swept under the moderator's rug. There's a time and place for that, but this isn't one of those occasions. DV's statements are clearly not placing the blame on anyone or seeking restitution for actions that he acknowledged as expired, but the mod response is acting as if this is the case.
Obviously to prove his point, yes that is what he would need. I just feel that grievances should be heard out and debated on rather than swept under the moderator's rug.
The place for grievances to be heard out and debated on is the moderator's helpdesk. That's hardly sweeping under the rug.
When a game ends I can provide a much more recent example. If I look around I can probably find a lot of other examples that date a year back and plus. I quit playing for about a year so that is as good as I can do!
I would also like to point out that I have messaged the council and they have basically said, well what ever, and then never gotten back to me after I tried to pursue it. It has been a week to the date now since I have had any communication from them.
Atseal got back to me, and I thank him for that, but hes not part of the council and most of what I am trying to talk about is about council things.
When a game ends I can provide a much more recent example. If I look around I can probably find a lot of other examples that date a year back and plus. I quit playing for about a year so that is as good as I can do!
I would also like to point out that I have messaged the council and they have basically said, well what ever, and then never gotten back to me after I tried to pursue it. It has been a week to the date now since I have had any communication from them.
Atseal got back to me, and I thank him for that, but hes not part of the council and most of what I am trying to talk about is about council things.
Current Council Members: Azrael, DYH, AsianInvasion, Ecophagy, Atlseal
@Zionite: Mine or atlseal's desk is far from sweeping it under the rug. If all of you were that curious to see the result, all you would have to do is go to the respective mod desk thread.
First, no, but with it being very public and around for a long time, especially after he changed it to the **** I would be surprised if they hadn't seen it.
It was something to the jist of,
Loran, "Did you check the player list? Dv is on it"
Cyan "GAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY"
Loran LoL
And that was the IM quote except that it had cyans IM name. I know I quoted it somewhere I can try and find it later.
It was then changed to after I brought it up
Cyan *****************
Etc.
I am simply bringing this stuff up, because I feel as though it was ignored I also feel that people looked over it and that isn't fair.
Yes I agree with you about the wrong doing part. The proof part you are right, except for the fact that in this thread Azreal promised us that proof, because of how public they made it. The proof part is very little concern its the rest of what was done that bothers me.
When I came here, loran's sig had "***" for whatever Cyan said. And, I didn't pay attention to the number of asterisks there, but I always thought it was the "F" word.
I'm reading the latest happenings now, but I just wanted to point that out.
Noooo. DV watched someone do something recently that reminded him of other things. And instead of and he decided he should say something about things that happened.
To be clear, its not that I don't believe that Naka should not have been banned. But he should not have been smeared the way he was. That is all.
I simply have a problem with some of the double standards that are sometimes present.
Anyways though please don't try and minimize what Cyan and Loran did. It wasn't fair and it was done to hurt on purpose and it succeeded to an extent. The fact that you think that it is ok says something about yourself as well sir.
How dare you minimize a situation where someone in a caring community was offended by his brethren. Seriously, why are you just dismissing everything he says? Do you think there's a double standard here on what gets moderated and what doesn't? Why aren't you contributing to the subject instead of making fun of DV?
When Loran had that in his sig, it was before this site started on the path of being too sensitive. Using gay as slang was not an offense at the time. And it's not something that was done intentionally to spite you, no matter what you think. I said something that Loran found funny, so he quoted it. It was a coincidence that it was something 'mean' regarding you. It's really hard to believe that you're still going on about it.
It's a natural, human response to desire an apology when one is offended and/or hurt by a fellow human being. There is nothing wrong with him for wanting that closure to a bad situation.
And I never talked about it then. I kept it to myself. I watched you say other rude things in this very thread about me. I only brought it up to facilitate a point. What you did was Cyber Bullying, it was wrong, and the fact that you think it was ok, says something about you.
It does, and cyber-bullying absolutely cannot be allowed in this forum. Maybe to an extent in-games as so many of you think it's necessary to gauge reactions, but absolutely not in this thread or any other non-game threads.
I am against a mass claim day 1.
I have poked my head into Joss Whedon mafia. That has turned out horrible.
[QUOTE=Loran's Sig]loran16: Wait
loran16: DV is in the game.
Shalafi79: Wait, what? Didn't think i saw his name.
loran16: It's there.
Shalafi79: gayyyyyyyyyy
Ouch didn't know Cyan hated me that much.
Oh, apparently it did. Apologies, buddy. Yeah, that's the one I saw.
Still, with all those asterisks, I thought it was the "F" word.
I am being logical about this, and I fail to see why you guys are so ready to defend this. I am not wrong in saying it wasn't right and that it was hurtful and rude. You refuse to accept this. I literally don't care about it anymore, I only brought it up to facilitate a point, which is that I have watched as members were bullied(in my opinion) and others namely some of the members on this council did nothing about it. They actually did the opposite with the naka situation, they encouraged it.
The point is simple, personal attacks on Naka were not needed. It would have been simply enough to state that he broke the rules the end. The fact that a smear campaign was raised actually makes me question the legitimacy of his rule breaking, but that is beside the point. The point I was trying to make was that if we are taking past offenses people have committed and using them as part of our weight in evidence for banning members, then there is a lot of people that would fall into this category. I think we can all agree that would be silly at best. Basically what I want is an apology for what happened to naka, and a promise that personal attacks in the future will never be used by the mods or the council as a basis to ban someone.
I had a problem with it then and I decided to speak up about it now because of other reasons.
I've honestly forgotten all about the Naka situation, but I think I remember him being smeared during his banning. I'm sure it came out of anger, and you're right. It shouldn't have. This is something that needs to be addressed.
As for retroactively using offenses, no, if something's going to change, it has to start once you make the change.
He isn't talking about seeking punishment for those who had fun at his expense. He's iterating a point about a larger trend in the sub forum about a lack of accountability when the ad hom gets too rough. If you seriously think DV is talking about any one person in particular, you are mistaken and completely missing his point.
Personally I could not care any less about the mud slinging that sometimes happens. But I do care about mods completely ignoring or misrepresenting the concerns of the players in the only thread intended for such a discussion.
No, thank you for thanking, vBulletin. I agree with this entire post.
Obviously to prove his point, yes that is what he would need. I just feel that grievances should be heard out and debated on rather than swept under the moderator's rug. There's a time and place for that, but this isn't one of those occasions. DV's statements are clearly not placing the blame on anyone or seeking restitution for actions that he acknowledged as expired, but the mod response is acting as if this is the case.
If they're situations regarding the site or a mod in particular, they should be in a helpdesk, yes. If they're regarding a possible change in the subforum, it needs to be addressed here.
Just a question - will there be special mafia events like the Creative Writing + Mafia mashup coming soon?
Nothing is currently in the works. For the moment, my energies have been focused on the ongoing crisis in Community Issues. Another council member could step up and investigate if there is sufficient interest in another special event, whether PCQ, or writing mashup, the league - I suspect there is.
We would welcome any suggestions people have for that.
Basically what I want is an apology for what happened to naka, and a promise that personal attacks in the future will never be used by the mods or the council as a basis to ban someene.
I meant part of the council that I wanted to hear from. Namely Azreal.
Sorry, that was my bad there.
I believe you're conflating "personal attacks" with not trusting the credibility of people who commit mail fraud and are demonstrably pathological liars. Now, I'm inclined to be an extremely tolerant and passive person under most circumstances. But when it comes to those rare, extreme outliers who appear to have no regard whatsoever for the impact that they are having on others, I have no compunction about holding them accountable for their behavior by simply calling it what it is.
As I explained earlier, our initial judgment on Naka's conduct hinged upon the belief that his original account of events was credible. Our subsequent investigation revealed that trusting in Naka was an error.
I'm not certain why exactly you sympathize with Naka in this situation. He repeatedly lied to the council and the entire forum, despite numerous chances to admit his wrongdoing and step off the path that he was on. He simply could not bring himself to admit that he was in the wrong, even when that meant that he would be allowed to stay.
"Mail fraud" and "demonstrably pathological liars", is strong language, yes. But when that strong language happens to be all too true, I have no intention of tiptoeing around it. However, I won't hold a grudge against them, and I make an effort to differentiate between a person's reprehensible conduct, and the person himself. If you've read that period of the thread in any detail, you'll note that I regarded Naka as someone who was deeply sick and dysfunctional, and needed to change and to seek help - not as someone that I harbored any ill-will towards. If Naka somehow came back as a completely healthy, reformed person tomorrow, I would line up to welcome him back. If I thought there were something I could do to help him, I would do it. Regrettably, I don't think that scenario is very realistic, but I have no problem with forgiving and forgetting just as soon as the problem is genuinely in the rear view mirror.
I'm not above apologizing when there is cause, but I feel that you have deeply mistaken the intent behind our actions.
Quote from DV »
To be frank I don't trust this council. I have asked at least twice now to removed from the probation list. It was even agreed that I had no business being there, since I was in my opinion bullied by a moderator to putting my name on that list. But I have never been removed even though it has been agreed that I should not be there.
Can you provide more details on this? Who agreed that you should not be on the list? When were your two previous requests?
As to TCM, DC, and NIV, please forward me the links to the relevant incidents and I will review them personally. The site administration is ordinarily a much better place to go for this kind of thing, but if you want an answer from the council, you'll get it.
I've also saved your latest two PMs to me, but I cannot locate the original.
How is this not the place for him to discuss an issue of smearing in the subforum?
Deaths_Vampire's intent was unclear. It appeared to several of us, TCM included, that he was airing old grievances. If his intent is to address ongoing concerns regarding unfair treatment of the Mafia playerbase, then he should list specific recent examples regarding said treatment instead of what, to us, looked like a specific grudge against Cyan, loran16, and Azrael.
Deaths_Vampire's intent was unclear. It appeared to several of us, TCM included, that he was airing old grievances. If his intent is to address ongoing concerns regarding unfair treatment of the Mafia playerbase, then he should list specific recent examples regarding said treatment instead of what, to us, looked like a specific grudge against Cyan, loran16, and Azrael.
Thank you for helping to clarify the situation.
He used an old example as the current ones are in ongoing games. while not optimal, he did what he could with what he could. Waiting for those games to be over might have been a better plan but then again hindsight is always 20/20
Agreed with AI. DV was incredibly unclear in his opening points, using an old incident only gave the appearance that he was refusing to let go of said incident that happened a while ago.
Keep it to recent smearing if we are going to continue this here. I don't want to play Jr. Detective to try and figure out what happened 1 year, 7 months, 25 days, 3 hours, and 14 seconds ago.
TCM, DC, and NIV, please forward me the links to the relevant incidents and I will review them personally. The site administration is ordinarily a much better place to go for this kind of thing, but if you want an answer from the council, you'll get it.
What are you talking about Az? Are you referring to in-game incidents that shouldn't be brought up here?
To the subject of smearing, if smearing was ever in the form of name-calling, or breaking mtgs rules, you are supposed to report it. Me and atlseal get reports in, an we do respond to the legit ones.
If we are talking about harassment that isn't breaking the rules or toes the line, I would think that is something to take to the game moderator. Our typical philosophy for warnings and infractions are to be lenient in-game, so unless its blatant flaming, typically nothing red text will be involved, as I just hate going to the apposite color.
If multiple players are having a particular problem with a single player, as we have had in the past, this is where I would think to bring it, or pm the entire council. If we are simply waiting for an ongoing game to end, can we not just pm Azreal and the rest of the council, since to the best of my knowledge, no member of the council is in that game?
Agreed with AI. DV was incredibly unclear in his opening points, using an old incident only gave the appearance that he was refusing to let go of said incident that happened a while ago.
Keep it to recent smearing if we are going to continue this here. I don't want to play Jr. Detective to try and figure out what happened 1 year, 7 months, 25 days, 3 hours, and 14 seconds ago.
I don't really buy this. Based on your reaction, it seems like you only read the context around DVs post like Shalako's comment and AIs request. Anyone actually reading DVs post could tell he was citing an example to illustrate a point since he couldn't cite the most recent occasion. It's your job to comprehend these things correctly before reprimanding him.
EDIT: I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just seeing a lot of 'jumping the gun' reactions when there is really no need for it. It needs to be kept in check when you have the responsibility of actually being in a position of power.
I agree with Manders, Zionite and DV. If I understood the situation correctly, DV had already done what TIK just suggested to him before coming here, only after some time has passed with no response at all, he posted here to open the discussion to the public. I would have done the same in his shoes.
At least looks like everything will be solved now and everyone will be happy. Time to move on and let the powers solve this.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The mod got butt-hurt and modkilled me. I want it expunged from my records, because it was stupid.
You flamed after he told everyone to keep it civil, and threatened with a modkill. You told kpaca to die in a fire horribly, or something to that effect. I don't see why it should be expunged.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You were belligerent and made no effort to keep a civil head despite a VERY blatant warning to keep things civil. Even now, you're resorting to baseless name-calling and impugning my ability to run the game, which undermines my authority as a GM in the first place.
I will personally lobby to keep this modkill on your record, and that's if I don't advocate blacklisting you entirely. You've been over the line, and it's high time you realize just how much you have ****ed up.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
It's a play style. I'm not actually upset with anyone in the game. When I went too far on someone one time, I apologized. The person who ****ed up here is YOU as the mod.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
I especially appreciated the personal smear where you accused me of "post manipulation" a.k.a. cheating. I don't ever cheat and I'm offended at the accusation.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
Your modkill was quite possibly the most deserved I have seen in years. You should have been modkilled just for PM quoting alone, nevermind the rest of it. Get over yourself.
flaming other players, unsportsmanlike conduct, and suspicion of post manipulation.
I got a little over the top flaming, then apologized. The mod threatened me and I told him to suck it. Then he modkilled me and accused me of cheating.
I don't really buy this. Based on your reaction, it seems like you only read the context around DVs post like Shalako's comment and AIs request. Anyone actually reading DVs post could tell he was citing an example to illustrate a point since he couldn't cite the most recent occasion. It's your job to comprehend these things correctly before reprimanding him.
Based on his post, his first post, and the more recent one you and Manders replied to, his intent was to dredge up the past, and showed a clear grudge for Loran/Cyan. I reread both posts, and the reports I had received about his posts muiltiple times, and only after hearing your/Manders spin on it, could I see what DV was trying to say.
Also, regardless of all that, I still requested he move his conversation out of the thread. All he had to do was go to my desk, or someone higher up and explain what he was actually trying to do. He instead chose to keep posting, hence why I brought out the red text. It wasn't just me and a few posters who read DV's posts that way, but quite a few more users than perhaps your anticipating, id est, he could have done a much better job of explaining his objective, and had he done so, he received my apology encourgament to please continue.
EDIT: I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just seeing a lot of 'jumping the gun' reactions when there is really no need for it. It needs to be kept in check when you have the responsibility of actually being in a position of power.
I really dislike the condescending tone here, but I am going to look the otherway, as it seems your just trying to be blunt. Had I known what DV actually wanted to do, would I have still used the red mod text? No, probably not. But I assure you, I give all my actions thought, before deciding to make a post with scary moderating text, regardless of how...impulsive you may think of them.
PM quoting isn't even remotely one of the reasons he cited. I would have accepted that as my screw-up. Just to be clear, I was modkilled for:
I got a little over the top flaming, then apologized. The mod threatened me and I told him to suck it. Then he modkilled me and accused me of cheating.
The mod told you to keep it civil...and in response you pretty much told him to suck it?
Seriously?
You're really complaining when, by your own words, that's what happened?
The mod told you to keep it civil...and in response you pretty much told him to suck it?
Seriously?
You're really complaining when, by your own words, that's what happened?
Well... DH does have a point that that isn't all he's being accused of. A modkill for offensive behaviour and/or PM quoting is supported by the thread; the allegation of post manipulation isn't. It feels like Charm needs to say something more about this, but I don't know what the appropriate forum is (this thread, PM to the council, PM to DH directly) or when (now vs once the game is no longer ongoing).
The thing is, the mod did not handle the situation well. If he wanted me to change my behavior, he could have pmed me and had a chat. What he did, was post in the main thread with "someone here needs to behave and we all know who it is". That is not a disciplinary measure or warning, it's a thinly veiled attempt to embarrass me. I explained my behavior an literally said "suck it" because I am not going to tolerate being publicly threatene or put down.
The mods next post is mod killing me for unsportsmanlike conduct, flaming, and post manipulation.
If my actions were bad enough to warrant a modkill already, then why post the "warning"? If they weren't, then does telling the mod to suck it constitute being modkilled? And where in this does the mod get the right to slander me with a false cheating charge? The simple explanation is that the mod never cared about making me reform, but rather was trying to embarrass me. When I pushed back, he lost his temper and modkilled me. However, he didn't feel he had enough justification to do so, so he made up false charges.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
The thing is, the mod did not handle the situation well. If he wanted me to change my behavior, he could have pmed me and had a chat. What he did, was post in the main thread with "someone here needs to behave and we all know who it is". That is not a disciplinary measure or warning, it's a thinly veiled attempt to embarrass me. I explained my behavior an literally said "suck it" because I am not going to tolerate being publicly threatene or put down.
The mods next post is mod killing me for unsportsmanlike conduct, flaming, and post manipulation.
If my actions were bad enough to warrant a modkill already, then why post the "warning"? If they weren't, then does telling the mod to suck it constitute being modkilled? And where in this does the mod get the right to slander me with a false cheating charge? The simple explanation is that the mod never cared about making me reform, but rather was trying to embarrass me. When I pushed back, he lost his temper and modkilled me. However, he didn't feel he had enough justification to do so, so he made up false charges.
Dragon, I love you man, but a lot of us were telling you to cool your jets. I know I posted at least three times to ease back on the throttle. It wasn't just the mod. Yes, some of the responses were sardonic and sarcastic. But that just served to fuel your fire which was aimed at everyone who was voting against you. I know I'm not exactly the poster-boy for not getting heated or pressured in a harsh situation, but you were warned by the mod and should accept the consequences of your actions.
I do not wish to get involved in this further so this is the only thing I'm going to say on the issue.
I really think this situation needs to be addressed only after the game is over. Will hold my opinion to myself until then.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Whether you liked it or not, it was a successful defense. And in any case, I was done and even said so. I had cooled my jets so to speak, and then got modkilled anyway.
@Drey I don't see anything here that affects the game state. We are talki about how I was apparently too mean. This has an immediate impact on me and potentially any other game I play. At very least, I need better explanations of where I went out of line and how I adjust my behavior for the future. That shouldn't wait until this game ends.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
Doesn't matter what the host says or does, DH. For that game and in that space, they are God. You essentially committed hubris and were punished. You never ever piss off a game master.
Doesn't matter what the host says or does, DH. For that game and in that space, they are God. You essentially committed hubris and were punished. You never ever piss off a game master.
This is precisely what happened. I don't believe I was modkilled for flaming, I believe I was modkilled for disagreeing with the mod and hubris.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
This is precisely what happened. I don't believe I was modkilled for flaming, I believe I was modkilled for disagreeing with the mod and hubris.
That's totally fair, in my opinion. The mod has a right to get rid of you if you're more of a headache than you're worth. It happens in DnD and every other GM-to-many kind of game. Mafia is no different. That is why, no matter what mistakes are made, a GM's word is gold and decisions final. You can **** talk them later when the dice aren't rolling.
#1 Don't slander me and lie about the reasons for killing me.
#2 He's still campaigning for me to be put on probation and/or banned.
#3 I don't think being modkilled for the mod not liking me should go on my record.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
Basically, I'm not disputing my kill or calling for any action against Charm. I'm disputing the further punishments that Charm is pushing for. His handling of the situation was inappropriate, but within his rights. I won't tolerate his lies though and I don't think further punishment is warranted.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
Basically, I'm not disputing my kill or calling for any action against Charm. I'm disputing the further punishments that Charm is pushing for. His handling of the situation was inappropriate, but within his rights. I won't tolerate his lies though and I don't think further punishment is warranted.
CM didn't announce his intent to push for further punishment until you came into this thread, calling him "butthurt" and demanding that your completely justified modkill be wiped out. To be honest, I'd be heading down that avenue myself in his place. But either way, this is now a Council issue and shouldn't be aired in public, especially while the game is still ongoing. So why don't we leave it to them to decide how to deal with the situation?
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When Loran had that in his sig, it was before this site started on the path of being too sensitive. Using gay as slang was not an offense at the time. And it's not something that was done intentionally to spite you, no matter what you think. I said something that Loran found funny, so he quoted it. It was a coincidence that it was something 'mean' regarding you. It's really hard to believe that you're still going on about it.
The fact that you refuse to say,
"Hey I was wrong."
And I never talked about it then. I kept it to myself. I watched you say other rude things in this very thread about me. I only brought it up to facilitate a point. What you did was Cyber Bullying, it was wrong, and the fact that you think it was ok, says something about you.
Hey look I'm alive. Also, DV, can we talk about this rationally for a second?
First of all, the sig was something like 8 sigs ago from me (It was, if i recall correctly, involving Camp Tachronic signups, so 3 years ago now).
Second of all, here was something like how the sig went, as a copy/pasting of an AIM convo:
loran: Saw you signed up for Camp Tachronic Mafia
Cyan: Yeah
loran: There's a nice group of guys signed up; AI,
loran: Some One,
loran: Andelijah,
loran: Bilbro
Cyan: Nice
loran: Oh, wait, also....DV
Cyan: ***
(Originally there weren't the astericks. After a mod PMed me, the word was replaced with astericks).
Now here's the thing - that sig? Isn't insulting. It was funny to me - that's why I posted it - but that's about it. So it showed that Cyan didn't like ya, so what? There's nothing against that in the forum. (Also Cyan wasn't calling you ***, if that even was an insult, he was calling the fact you were in the game derogatory. There's a difference). Cyan makes it clear who he doesn't like in this forum all the time.
tl;dr: The sig involved nothing insulting about you, other than expressing how Cyan thought about you - which again isn't an insult. Not offensive. Which is why the sig was fine after I removed the actual 3 letter word used.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
So yeah you are right, its still offensive and it was still rude and unneeded. It also effected my behavior in that game because I would have done anything to make sure he was lynched as soon as I found out he was the SK.
I am being logical about this, and I fail to see why you guys are so ready to defend this. I am not wrong in saying it wasn't right and that it was hurtful and rude. You refuse to accept this. I literally don't care about it anymore, I only brought it up to facilitate a point, which is that I have watched as members were bullied(in my opinion) and others namely some of the members on this council did nothing about it. They actually did the opposite with the naka situation, they encouraged it.
The point is simple, personal attacks on Naka were not needed. It would have been simply enough to state that he broke the rules the end. The fact that a smear campaign was raised actually makes me question the legitimacy of his rule breaking, but that is beside the point. The point I was trying to make was that if we are taking past offenses people have committed and using them as part of our weight in evidence for banning members, then there is a lot of people that would fall into this category. I think we can all agree that would be silly at best. Basically what I want is an apology for what happened to naka, and a promise that personal attacks in the future will never be used by the mods or the council as a basis to ban someone.
I had a problem with it then and I decided to speak up about it now because of other reasons.
So someone insulted you, maliciously or not.
You have a few options. Be hurt about it and post like you have been, be hurt about it but let it go, or just don't worry about it.
In the long run, the last option will make you feel the best.
Umm...
Why is this conversation still going on? I recommended you stop posting here, the council has asked you to stop, and now I am requesting that this stops. The Council Thread is not the place to air petty feuds with other players, especially ones where the time to bring them up was years ago.
DV, if you wish to continue this conversation, bring it to PM or helpdesks, as AI requested.
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Personally I could not care any less about the mud slinging that sometimes happens. But I do care about mods completely ignoring or misrepresenting the concerns of the players in the only thread intended for such a discussion.
I would also like to point out that I have messaged the council and they have basically said, well what ever, and then never gotten back to me after I tried to pursue it. It has been a week to the date now since I have had any communication from them.
Atseal got back to me, and I thank him for that, but hes not part of the council and most of what I am trying to talk about is about council things.
@Zionite: Mine or atlseal's desk is far from sweeping it under the rug. If all of you were that curious to see the result, all you would have to do is go to the respective mod desk thread.
Running to work, so I may post more later.
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Sorry, that was my bad there.
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Curse PremiumWhen I came here, loran's sig had "***" for whatever Cyan said. And, I didn't pay attention to the number of asterisks there, but I always thought it was the "F" word.
I'm reading the latest happenings now, but I just wanted to point that out.
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How is this not the place for him to discuss an issue of smearing in the subforum?
I thanked this post.
How dare you minimize a situation where someone in a caring community was offended by his brethren. Seriously, why are you just dismissing everything he says? Do you think there's a double standard here on what gets moderated and what doesn't? Why aren't you contributing to the subject instead of making fun of DV?
It's a natural, human response to desire an apology when one is offended and/or hurt by a fellow human being. There is nothing wrong with him for wanting that closure to a bad situation.
I feel ya.
It does, and cyber-bullying absolutely cannot be allowed in this forum. Maybe to an extent in-games as so many of you think it's necessary to gauge reactions, but absolutely not in this thread or any other non-game threads.
Oh, apparently it did. Apologies, buddy. Yeah, that's the one I saw.
Still, with all those asterisks, I thought it was the "F" word.
I've honestly forgotten all about the Naka situation, but I think I remember him being smeared during his banning. I'm sure it came out of anger, and you're right. It shouldn't have. This is something that needs to be addressed.
As for retroactively using offenses, no, if something's going to change, it has to start once you make the change.
Not everyone finds it easy to just blow off something offensive.
No, thank you for thanking, vBulletin. I agree with this entire post.
If they're situations regarding the site or a mod in particular, they should be in a helpdesk, yes. If they're regarding a possible change in the subforum, it needs to be addressed here.
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Nothing is currently in the works. For the moment, my energies have been focused on the ongoing crisis in Community Issues. Another council member could step up and investigate if there is sufficient interest in another special event, whether PCQ, or writing mashup, the league - I suspect there is.
We would welcome any suggestions people have for that.
I believe you're conflating "personal attacks" with not trusting the credibility of people who commit mail fraud and are demonstrably pathological liars. Now, I'm inclined to be an extremely tolerant and passive person under most circumstances. But when it comes to those rare, extreme outliers who appear to have no regard whatsoever for the impact that they are having on others, I have no compunction about holding them accountable for their behavior by simply calling it what it is.
As I explained earlier, our initial judgment on Naka's conduct hinged upon the belief that his original account of events was credible. Our subsequent investigation revealed that trusting in Naka was an error.
I'm not certain why exactly you sympathize with Naka in this situation. He repeatedly lied to the council and the entire forum, despite numerous chances to admit his wrongdoing and step off the path that he was on. He simply could not bring himself to admit that he was in the wrong, even when that meant that he would be allowed to stay.
"Mail fraud" and "demonstrably pathological liars", is strong language, yes. But when that strong language happens to be all too true, I have no intention of tiptoeing around it. However, I won't hold a grudge against them, and I make an effort to differentiate between a person's reprehensible conduct, and the person himself. If you've read that period of the thread in any detail, you'll note that I regarded Naka as someone who was deeply sick and dysfunctional, and needed to change and to seek help - not as someone that I harbored any ill-will towards. If Naka somehow came back as a completely healthy, reformed person tomorrow, I would line up to welcome him back. If I thought there were something I could do to help him, I would do it. Regrettably, I don't think that scenario is very realistic, but I have no problem with forgiving and forgetting just as soon as the problem is genuinely in the rear view mirror.
I'm not above apologizing when there is cause, but I feel that you have deeply mistaken the intent behind our actions.
Can you provide more details on this? Who agreed that you should not be on the list? When were your two previous requests?
As to TCM, DC, and NIV, please forward me the links to the relevant incidents and I will review them personally. The site administration is ordinarily a much better place to go for this kind of thing, but if you want an answer from the council, you'll get it.
I've also saved your latest two PMs to me, but I cannot locate the original.
Deaths_Vampire's intent was unclear. It appeared to several of us, TCM included, that he was airing old grievances. If his intent is to address ongoing concerns regarding unfair treatment of the Mafia playerbase, then he should list specific recent examples regarding said treatment instead of what, to us, looked like a specific grudge against Cyan, loran16, and Azrael.
Thank you for helping to clarify the situation.
He used an old example as the current ones are in ongoing games. while not optimal, he did what he could with what he could. Waiting for those games to be over might have been a better plan but then again hindsight is always 20/20
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Keep it to recent smearing if we are going to continue this here. I don't want to play Jr. Detective to try and figure out what happened 1 year, 7 months, 25 days, 3 hours, and 14 seconds ago.
What are you talking about Az? Are you referring to in-game incidents that shouldn't be brought up here?
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No, I believe it's older material.
To the subject of smearing, if smearing was ever in the form of name-calling, or breaking mtgs rules, you are supposed to report it. Me and atlseal get reports in, an we do respond to the legit ones.
If we are talking about harassment that isn't breaking the rules or toes the line, I would think that is something to take to the game moderator. Our typical philosophy for warnings and infractions are to be lenient in-game, so unless its blatant flaming, typically nothing red text will be involved, as I just hate going to the apposite color.
If multiple players are having a particular problem with a single player, as we have had in the past, this is where I would think to bring it, or pm the entire council. If we are simply waiting for an ongoing game to end, can we not just pm Azreal and the rest of the council, since to the best of my knowledge, no member of the council is in that game?
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I don't really buy this. Based on your reaction, it seems like you only read the context around DVs post like Shalako's comment and AIs request. Anyone actually reading DVs post could tell he was citing an example to illustrate a point since he couldn't cite the most recent occasion. It's your job to comprehend these things correctly before reprimanding him.
EDIT: I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just seeing a lot of 'jumping the gun' reactions when there is really no need for it. It needs to be kept in check when you have the responsibility of actually being in a position of power.
At least looks like everything will be solved now and everyone will be happy. Time to move on and let the powers solve this.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
You flamed after he told everyone to keep it civil, and threatened with a modkill. You told kpaca to die in a fire horribly, or something to that effect. I don't see why it should be expunged.
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Since when did being mean constitute grounds for a mod-kill? The only flaming I did was against Arcadic, and that had already been dealt with.
Since when did being mean constitute grounds for a mod-kill? The only flaming I did was against Arcadic, and that had already been dealt with.
I will personally lobby to keep this modkill on your record, and that's if I don't advocate blacklisting you entirely. You've been over the line, and it's high time you realize just how much you have ****ed up.
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I got a little over the top flaming, then apologized. The mod threatened me and I told him to suck it. Then he modkilled me and accused me of cheating.
Based on his post, his first post, and the more recent one you and Manders replied to, his intent was to dredge up the past, and showed a clear grudge for Loran/Cyan. I reread both posts, and the reports I had received about his posts muiltiple times, and only after hearing your/Manders spin on it, could I see what DV was trying to say.
Also, regardless of all that, I still requested he move his conversation out of the thread. All he had to do was go to my desk, or someone higher up and explain what he was actually trying to do. He instead chose to keep posting, hence why I brought out the red text. It wasn't just me and a few posters who read DV's posts that way, but quite a few more users than perhaps your anticipating, id est, he could have done a much better job of explaining his objective, and had he done so, he received my apology encourgament to please continue.
I really dislike the condescending tone here, but I am going to look the otherway, as it seems your just trying to be blunt. Had I known what DV actually wanted to do, would I have still used the red mod text? No, probably not. But I assure you, I give all my actions thought, before deciding to make a post with scary moderating text, regardless of how...impulsive you may think of them.
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You're really complaining when, by your own words, that's what happened?
Well... DH does have a point that that isn't all he's being accused of. A modkill for offensive behaviour and/or PM quoting is supported by the thread; the allegation of post manipulation isn't. It feels like Charm needs to say something more about this, but I don't know what the appropriate forum is (this thread, PM to the council, PM to DH directly) or when (now vs once the game is no longer ongoing).
Also: hi everybody! Long time no see!
The mods next post is mod killing me for unsportsmanlike conduct, flaming, and post manipulation.
If my actions were bad enough to warrant a modkill already, then why post the "warning"? If they weren't, then does telling the mod to suck it constitute being modkilled? And where in this does the mod get the right to slander me with a false cheating charge? The simple explanation is that the mod never cared about making me reform, but rather was trying to embarrass me. When I pushed back, he lost his temper and modkilled me. However, he didn't feel he had enough justification to do so, so he made up false charges.
Dragon, I love you man, but a lot of us were telling you to cool your jets. I know I posted at least three times to ease back on the throttle. It wasn't just the mod. Yes, some of the responses were sardonic and sarcastic. But that just served to fuel your fire which was aimed at everyone who was voting against you. I know I'm not exactly the poster-boy for not getting heated or pressured in a harsh situation, but you were warned by the mod and should accept the consequences of your actions.
I do not wish to get involved in this further so this is the only thing I'm going to say on the issue.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@Drey I don't see anything here that affects the game state. We are talki about how I was apparently too mean. This has an immediate impact on me and potentially any other game I play. At very least, I need better explanations of where I went out of line and how I adjust my behavior for the future. That shouldn't wait until this game ends.
This is precisely what happened. I don't believe I was modkilled for flaming, I believe I was modkilled for disagreeing with the mod and hubris.
That's totally fair, in my opinion. The mod has a right to get rid of you if you're more of a headache than you're worth. It happens in DnD and every other GM-to-many kind of game. Mafia is no different. That is why, no matter what mistakes are made, a GM's word is gold and decisions final. You can **** talk them later when the dice aren't rolling.
#2 He's still campaigning for me to be put on probation and/or banned.
#3 I don't think being modkilled for the mod not liking me should go on my record.
CM didn't announce his intent to push for further punishment until you came into this thread, calling him "butthurt" and demanding that your completely justified modkill be wiped out. To be honest, I'd be heading down that avenue myself in his place. But either way, this is now a Council issue and shouldn't be aired in public, especially while the game is still ongoing. So why don't we leave it to them to decide how to deal with the situation?
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Nope. Tell me what I did wrong, tell me how to avoid doing that in the future, and give me a chance to defend myself from false accusations.