Crypto claiming was banned sitewide about 2 years ago. I think It was Alx2 that designed a way to just destroy a scumteam's chance of winning with a day one cryptoclaim.
Nothing was ever said about Encrypting a whole message however.
Get it straight, it was Harry Potter Mafia....and the scum still won that game :-P.
But yes, cryptoclaiming was banned, at least to the extent that it was done en-mass to force everyone to lock in their claims on day 1.
It wasn't as clearly defined however, and various other ways of subclaiming have been allowed. Whatever is being cryptoclaimed or whatever may or may not be banned in a certain situation....the key is that you're allowed to encrypt information to be revealed later (Cop results for instance) or hide them in posts....but they can't be used as a whole to basically force claims early in game.
It's a really really fine line. I thought the general rule was to ask your mod if a proposed subclaim would be fine.
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Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
There is no "general rule" posted anywhere. You guys can't just expect all of your players to know all of this in-house stuff that dates back multiple years and requires specific examples and gray areas. You need good clean clear rules for players to read.
Zionite has access to the unencrypted version of my post. You can ask him if you are needing more information about the ruling in this specific situation. I had no idea any ruling would be necessary though, as there was no rule preventing me from posting that.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
Wasn't HP mafia the game you played to your scum meta, but got out of it cause you claimed mod confirmed masons with your scum buddy alpha?
Yah, the town designed foolproof way to win and let you get away with mason gambit.
Yes.
in unrelated news:
Hi Loran.
Also Hi. But I'm still retired.
EDIT:
Quote from Dragonheart91 »
There is no "general rule" posted anywhere. You guys can't just expect all of your players to know all of this in-house stuff that dates back multiple years and requires specific examples and gray areas. You need good clean clear rules for players to read.
Zionite has access to the unencrypted version of my post. You can ask him if you are needing more information about the ruling in this specific situation. I had no idea any ruling would be necessary though, as there was no rule preventing me from posting that.
You're correct of course. The situation is indeed an oversight, which will be corrected, I'm sure. (I think the cryptoclaiming thing is in an old thread but I can't find it atm)
That said, it is up to the mod on whether to allow it.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Loran was right that this was addressed earlier, so I searched the council thread and found :
Quote from Azrael »
Unless any of the other members of the council would object, I'd recommend that our official stance be that crypto-claims are unilaterally banned unless the mod specifically states in their sign-up rules, before the game begins, that they are to be allowed.
The exemption is provided not in hopes that mods will allow it from time to time (I expect this rule will function in practice as a complete ban) but in recognition of the fact that such a tactic is simply unfun, not completely game-breaking, and it's conceivable that a mod could have special reasons for allowing it.
Since no other council members replied within the next 2 pages, I assume that it was the councils decision (one which I think is perfectly acceptable, as while crypto-claims are good, any game where the mafia are provided false claims gets past them) since it leaves open possible design space in the future.
This should probably be added to some list of rules somewhere so noobs are not confused.
I do not agree with 1 uniform rules set, as all games are different and as such need different rules. I also think it takes the fun out of the stolen rules, which while most mods now dont include it, the list of names is usually amusing.
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
Is it so bad to have a MTGS framework of rules and give Mod's the option to tailor them on a game-by-game basis, for the sake of clarity, consistency, and helping the new player orient more easily?
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
The Ice King, Latviareplacing Yanni - lynched Day 1
Puddlejumber, Cuba - Throat slit Night 1
Tezzeret12, Chinareplacing Dancing Mad - Modkilled Day 2
kpaca, Estonia - Modkilled Day 2
Johnthemaster, Poland - Modkilled Day 2
DesCoures, Canada - Modkilled Day 2
Azrael, Germany - Lynched Day 2
Zionite, Britain - Neck snapped Night 2
MandersHex, United States - Stabbed Night 2
Vezokpiraka, Italy - Vaporized Night 2
Deathjoey, Belarus - Lynched Day 3
AsianInvasion, Austria - Vaporized Night 3
Deaths_Vampire, Lithuania - Stabbed Night 3
Pale Mage, Russia - Lynched Day 4
Rules (Taken and modified from Dagger): Lynch Mechanic
1. Votes should be bolded for them to be counted. E.g. Vote: Dagger
2. Unvotes should be bolded for them to be counted E.g. Unvote: Dagger
3. You may Vote: No Lynch. A majority of these votes will result in the day going to the night phase without a lynch
4. Unvoting a player first before voting another player is not necessary, but is appreciated and will put you in my good book.
5. Lynch will occur with a simple majority of votes. This is irreversible; no amount of unvoting will stop a lynch if the player has reached the lynch threshold.
6. If a deadline is set, a lynch will occur on the player with the highest number of votes at the deadline. If there is a tie, a lynch will occur on the player who reaches that number of votes first. If there is no vote at all, No Lynch will occur.
Action Choices
1. There is a deadline for night action choices. Abide by it. Any player who misses, barring extenuating circumstances, will be counted as not submitting any action for that current phase.
2. Choices can be sent in advance if you won’t be available during the coming phase.
3. Any action choice is to be sent to me via PM, my preferred method of bookkeeping, and should have this game’s name in its title and the current phase listed. E.g. Hetalia Mafia Night 2
Upon the threat of replacement or modkill
1. Do not communicate, discuss, or even hint about this game with with people outside of this game thread at all, unless your role explicitly gives you permission. This applies even when you are dead, unless permitted by me.
2. Direct quoting or or paraphrasing too closely your role PM or any PM at all from me is not allowed. If you are uncertain if you're paraphrasing too closely, ask me beforehand The same threat holds if you ask other players to do the same.
3. Modifying or deleting your posts in the game thread is not allowed.
4. Posting in the game thread during the Night phase is not allowed.
5. If you are dead, posting in the game thread is not allowed. I will tolerate a “Bah” post on the condition there is no relevant information being conveyed to the living players, explicitly or implicitly.
6. You are expected to maintain a reasonable rate of posting, at least once every 72 hours. If you anticipate being unavailable for a period of time longer than that, please let me know ahead of time. After 24 hours without posting, you will be prodded. Failure to respond to the prod within 48 hours is grounds for replacement or modkill.
7. Crypto-claiming and its variants are not allowed.
Miscellaneous
1. Please consult with me if you have any doubt or query. Better be safe than wrong. I don’t bite… much.
2. Any request to be made of me in the game thread should be bolded.
3. Any request to be made of me in via PM should have this game’s name in its title.
4. Respect the Mod, the players, and the Forum Rules. This is not optional.
5. Have fun! This is not optional.
Community Chosen Abilities
1. At the start of each game day, three abilities will be posted in the game thread. These are the Community Chosen Abilities, whose targets are chosen by the players in the game collectively within the same day.
2. Throughout the day, you may vote for the player you would like each ability to be used on via PM. Only votes submitted through PM will be counted.
3. At the end of the day, each ability will be used on the player who received the most votes for it to be used on. This will take place during the same night.
4. The following day, the result of each ability will be posted in the opening post of the day.
5. These abilities may be the target of other abilities
I was not aware of cryto claiming until this game.
Rule number Seven(under threat of modkill) was added due to me asking the mod if I could set up a code to talk with my oneshot mason buddy during the day.
Until then I had never heard of it so I understand where DragonH is coming from.
Also in Ogre Mafia Seppel tried to do the same thing.
It's clear that the rules aren't clear enough about this.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Council already said they're working on the issue. How about we let them handle it instead of talking about ongoing games?
^^This. I'm sure there will be a war of words sometime in the future. Now is not the time to compound the problem, especially since a Council member is involved in the game in question.
I'd like to not compound the drama.
===================================
All that being said, the timeline seems to be long on this ruling. If, as atlseal suggests, I'm not likely to be removed from games, can I please be given a ruling as to whether I can join tordeck's game? We are hours away from role PM's being sent.
It is the only game firing at the moment, and I would very much like the green light to know that I won't be yanked out of it as it tries to fire, for his sake and mine as my game count is dwindling, fast.
Thanks for your attention, regardless as to the result.
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Just as a heads-up to everyone, I think I'm going on something of a playing hiatus after all of my on-going games are completed or I die in them - the only game I see coming up soon on the queue that particularly interests me is Dagger's, so unless something phenomenal pops into the FTQ (I'm actually hoping one of my submissions will be the choice), I'll probably be MIA in most games for a spell. I'll still be here to do Secretary work, of course, and I'll happily mentor anyone who needs it. But I need to rest my brain for a bit.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Zionite said he was of the opinion that Artifice should be banned because of him posting his role PM in Cyberpunk.
I personally disagree unless he does it again.
Just to clarify, as it seems people are misunderstanding, Artifice didn't JUST quote his role PM. He also swore on his children he wasn't lying about forgetting his role PM was colorless, unlike the revealed PMs. Almost every player found this to be terribly bad form. This on top of the PM quoting, I can't help but suggest at least a temporary ban.
Just to clarify, as it seems people are misunderstanding, Artifice didn't JUST quote his role PM. He also swore on his children he wasn't lying about forgetting his role PM was colorless, unlike the revealed PMs. Almost every player found this to be terribly bad form. This on top of the PM quoting, I can't help but suggest at least a temporary ban.
Given that this should all be discussed after your game is over, so that everyone involved (including the player base still currently involved in the game) I'd appreciate it if we could drop the subject until the Council asks to discuss it. Seems to make more sense in every way.
I'm more than willing to discuss all of this, and to dredge up the previous arguments to this effect. Just not now. Compounding the perceived problem seems like the wrong route to take.
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
The purpose of this thread is to provide a place where Salvation's mafia players can discuss their problems and opinions, appeal decisions to the council, suggest improvements to the current system, and consult with council members about pretty much anything.
The council makes decisions that are best for the entire player base. If that base doesn't completely understand what happened, they may misinterpret the council's action later. Simple as that. If you were really concerned with the health of my game, you wouldn't have acted how you did.
I'm not trying to be a dick. I just have an interest in my players and want to make sure that their thoughts are considered.
I politely disagree with your timing. As I've said, we can discuss all of this later. You have only part of the overall philosophical picture.
My suggestion is that we keep things simple and argue the merits at a later date for the sake of the continued health of your game, whether you believe me or not. You aren't impartial anymore. Accept that, please?
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
I actually don't see why the conversation is being put on hold. Artifice is already dead, and his actions(and people's reactions) have no bearing on anyone's alignment(s). I think that something like this is better dealt with while it is fresh in people's minds than just tabling it until later.
Obviously Artifice is just hoping that some people will forget about it/care less whenever Zionite's game ends(which will probably be a couple of months from now). But I think he's waiting on nothing there, as the vocal parties in this matter are going to be just as fervent later as we are now.
I actually don't see why the conversation is being put on hold. Artifice is already dead, and his actions(and people's reactions) have no bearing on anyone's alignment(s). I think that something like this is better dealt with while it is fresh in people's minds than just tabling it until later.
Obviously Artifice is just hoping that some people will forget about it/care less whenever Zionite's game ends(which will probably be a couple of months from now). But I think he's waiting on nothing there, as the vocal parties in this matter are going to be just as fervent later as we are now.
Obviously. /sarcasm You have no right to speak to my mindstate about this discussion as you are not me. Simply put, you are wrong. Stop attempting to make me out as a liar and besmirch my character with your suggestions. You have no right to continue to do so.
Also, you shouldn't be commenting here as you are in said ongoing game. The statement that the discussion will have no bearing on alignments is less accurate than saying people's alignments will have a bearing on the discussion. I, for one, want to wait to protect the rest of the game. To be clear, on all I hold dear, the above is the absolute truth. This includes my children, for reference, obv.
I ask for a formal council ruling on when discussion of this subject will be deemed appropriate, please.
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
If the vocal parties(ie you) will be just as fervent when the game is over then they can wait till then to discuss it. Discussing ongoing games has always been a no-no and there is no reason to change it now just because a you dont agree with a gambit.
I have an opinion on the matter as well, but I don't think Cyan's attacks are appropriate at this time. Any discussion here is going to lead into discussion about our on-going game. Just my opinion though.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
If the vocal parties(ie you) will be just as fervent when the game is over then they can wait till then to discuss it. Discussing ongoing games has always been a no-no and there is no reason to change it now just because a you dont agree with a gambit.
edit aimed at cyan got snarfed by art
I have, in fact, always been disdainful of that rule, because it assumes that players are rejects that will leak ingame information when discussing something that is actually off-topic.
Besides, waiting on this cannot hurt Artifice, and can only benefit him. Of course that is what he is going to want. I don't see why he should get that courtesy.
atlseal and Ecophagy have posted their thoughts on the issue in the Council Cave. When Azrael checks in, he will share his opinion, and perhaps publicly declare what the next steps in the process will be.
Until then, please be respectful and do not exacerbate the problem. This applies to all users posting here.
Council, any objections to adding the following, previously informal guidelines to the hosting signups thread?
-Cryptoclaims-
Unless explicitly authorized by the game moderator in their opening rules section, cryptoclaims are forbidden.
-Out-of-game Promises or statements-
Players may not use out-of-game promises or statements (example: I swear on my grandmother's life, I bet you my entire collection of magic cards, etc.) in an effort to influence other players.
The council will take action prior to the end of the game, but at this point, I'd recommend that any statements from players be submitted to the council via PM to protect the game's integrity.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What about mentioning things happening outside the game (i.e. loggin in to MTGS, being seen on other sites or in real life)?
What about promises that don't involve "real life" but do involve personal things of importance?
What about site Mods effecting game integrity?
What about all of the other issues that need to be discussed, with ALL the information on the table (i.e. when the game is over, as i've suggested above)? And where does it all end?
How exactly is a townie supposed to express themselves without being a robot? I mean I will be submitting something to you. Not a problem. But I can't do so fairly until this game is actually over. Have you read the events in question?
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
I apologize for the holdup, after posting my initial review of the situation I've been absorbed in being a lawyer part-time, being an oil and gas researcher full-time, and buying a brand new home - life's been busy! Returning to the matter at hand, my feelings are as such:
1. Out-of-game wagers have been considered inappropriate since myself and Axel (mostly me) set a benchmark for ugliness with them in random mafia. It's been an informal and unwritten rule up till now for the sake of trying to avoid rules proliferation, but apparently we've reached a stage where that's no longer a good approach.
2. Because it's an unwritten rule, I feel that the council's jurisdiction is not quite as wide-ranging as it otherwise could be. Which is not to say that I feel our hands are altogether tied on this issue.
3. Artifice, you've been rubbing an awful lot of people the wrong way with that hyper-competitive attitude we've discussed previously, and the outcry we're seeing here is very much symptomatic of that. That has been a continuing problem. I'm not sure I really got through to you, the first time around. Perhaps this time, we can have a more productive discussion.
Your actions and attitudes - the perception that you're not big on sportmanship or considering the enjoyment of others - have begun impacting a lot of people. It's becoming a problem for the health of the entire sub. That is not a good thing. Until recently we haven't had to worry much about this kind of issue, but it is the sort of breakdown that the council is charged with preventing.
Do you see how what's going on here is in any way problematic?
Scum have also lied about real life happenings for their own gain, some of which of course none of us can prove, but I can demonstrate happening three seperate times. But real-life hinderances have been used as scum defenses/attacks as well.
This is a game of lies. I prefer to play it honorably. If that has a side-effect, part of it is that it forces me to be more creative when I random into scum... on and on.
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Do you see how what's going on here is in any way problematic?
When you use such nebulous language, of course I see that there is a problem. That being said, I'd like a fair shot at explaining myself.
Given that I cannot in good conscience discuss the problem at hand and sufficiently defend myself while maintaining the health of Zionite's game, I would like to wait until I can. [Redacted -- I can't even say the next natural sentence... I will PM you, Az']
Suffice it to say lumping these arguments together and using language that makes being competative sound inexusable of course bastardizes my position beyond any reasonable defense.
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
I feel like it's not fair game to completely ban OoG-related things - the most amusing recent example being when I was called out for "lurking" during Flame Warriors but I had actually delivered cheesecake to Seppel and he posted a video in the game showing a lack of cheesecake in his fridge.
Admittedly, I was being truthful (he just couldn't find it or something), but is this new rule striking down things like that, where one can prove that another may or may not be lying based on what they say is keeping them busy OoG?
If that's an affirmative, can we no longer use the "is posting elsewhere on the site" line of thought as an attack?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I feel like it's not fair game to completely ban OoG-related things - the most amusing recent example being when I was called out for "lurking" during Flame Warriors but I had actually delivered cheesecake to Seppel and he posted a video in the game showing a lack of cheesecake in his fridge.
Admittedly, I was being truthful (he just couldn't find it or something), but is this new rule striking down things like that, where one can prove that another may or may not be lying based on what they say is keeping them busy OoG?
If that's an affirmative, can we no longer use the "is posting elsewhere on the site" line of thought as an attack?
As covered below, I don't believe we want to begin policing that type of things. Facts, whether in-game or out-of-game, can still be referenced and proven. We simply don't want wagers or promises.
Scum have also lied about real life happenings for their own gain, some of which of course none of us can prove, but I can demonstrate happening three seperate times. But real-life hinderances have been used as scum defenses/attacks as well.
This is a game of lies. I prefer to play it honorably. If that has a side-effect, part of it is that it forces me to be more creative when I random into scum... on and on.
That's not exactly pertinent to the topic. We're not discussing the sleaziness of some third-party person who tries to invent a family illness to excuse their lurking. I'm sure that's happened before, and while it's distasteful, it's a can of worms I'd rather not attempt to police or double-check. That's more of a karma issue.
What we're discussing is your particular case, which is something which HAS been previously addressed, and outlawed, due to the bad taste that it leaves in players' mouths.
You are not exactly filling me with confidence that you're going to have a change of heart or some kind of epiphany on this issue.
When Nakamura was banned from this site, the root causes were very similar to what I'm seeing here. He was not able to realize or admit how what he was doing was wrong, and he appeared to have very little regard for others. That is an excellent recipe for a festering problem.
EDIT:
Quote from Artifice »
When you use such nebulous language, of course I see that there is a problem. That being said, I'd like a fair shot at explaining myself.
Of course.
Quote from Artifice »
Given that I cannot in good conscience discuss the problem at hand and sufficiently defend myself while maintaining the health of Zionite's game, I would like to wait until I can. [Redacted -- I can't even say the next natural sentence... I will PM you, Az']
Ok.
Quote from Artifice »
Suffice it to say lumping these arguments together and using language that makes being competative sound inexusable of course bastardizes my position beyond any reasonable defense.
At times, being overly competitive is inexcusable. That's the line we're concerned with here, and it's why there's a group of people who are very ticked off with you ITT.
I'm surprised that it managed to become a problem. It seems to me that out of game issue should either be ignored or ridiculed by the other players. It literally has no relevance on the game and should be treated as such. On my forum we pretty much ignore anyone who tries that kind of claim and/or chalk it up as scummy behavior.
If you are going to pass a rule banning that type of behavior, it should be worded in a way that makes it a principle or guideline and not a hard rule. There will always be gray areas in these situations and you need to have the rule specifically leave it up to neutral moderators to determine what side of the line specific events fall on. For example: "Players should refrain from making promises relating to anything they care about outside of the game. Failure to do so will result in warnings or other penalties at the discretion of the forum moderators." Something along the lines of that. Keep it vague and make sure that human supervision is involved.
In this specific incidence, I don't think the out of game chatter should have much to do with anything. I'm more concerned with the arguments and flaming that happened immediately afterwards and with the clear rule violation of posting a full quoted role PM. (Although he posted that after he was already dead and moments before the moderator would have posted it anyway. It had no actual effect on the game and is therefore slightly less troublesome.)
That's my opinion on the matter. I don't think any of this interferes with the ongoing game. I leave it up to the council to make the decisions on these matters.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
That's not exactly pertinent to the topic. We're not discussing the sleaziness of some third-party person who tries to invent a family illness to excuse their lurking. I'm sure that's happened before, and while it's distasteful, it's a can of worms I'd rather not attempt to police or double-check. That's more of a karma issue.
Sure. Your choice.
What we're discussing is your particular case, which is something which HAS been previously addressed, and outlawed, due to the bad taste that it leaves in players' mouths.
Given that you haven't read your PM, I can't continue to discuss this at length. I'd like to know if you have read the game in question to see what occured, and where the bolded above occured? It appears to me as if you don't understand what actually happened.
You are not exactly filling me with confidence that you're going to have a change of heart or some kind of epiphany on this issue.
And again, your nebulous language leads me to believe that I'm not allowed to argue my position. I'm being prejudged without a trial.
When Nakamura was banned from this site, the root causes were very similar to what I'm seeing here. He was not able to realize or admit how what he was doing was wrong, and he appeared to have very little regard for others. That is an excellent recipe for a festering problem.
Please don't compare me to him. This is exactly the opposite of his problems, as I understand them. His slimeball behavior of ripping and his anti-social game destructive issues to the detriment of his team were the issue. I am trying to help my team with my behavior. The comparison if unfounded and inflamatory. Please, don't make it.
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My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
I don't get how you don't realize what the deeper problem is here, Artifice.
Let's say that what you did in Zionite's game was perfectly allowable. Like Zindabad said, every game state would devolve into EVERY player saying 'I swear on my mom/cat/kids/collection of cabbage patch kids that I am not scum. And surely I would not make this kind of oath if I didn't mean it'.
And...then what? Clearly some of them would be lying. But how would you figure it out?
This is also why lurking is frowned upon, you know. If it wasn't, everyone could just lurk, and nothing would ever happen. There is a certain code and spirit of the game that everyone expects everyone else to uphold.
Crypto claims were banned for the same reason.
Ultimately, mafia is just a game. No matter how much you win or how well you perform, there is no prize. It is supposed to be fun and competitive. And like everything competitive, it has rules. Rules that most people have no problem following.
I'm surprised that it managed to become a problem. It seems to me that out of game issue should either be ignored or ridiculed by the other players. It literally has no relevance on the game and should be treated as such. On my forum we pretty much ignore anyone who tries that kind of claim and/or chalk it up as scummy behavior.
If you are going to pass a rule banning that type of behavior, it should be worded in a way that makes it a principle or guideline and not a hard rule. There will always be gray areas in these situations and you need to have the rule specifically leave it up to neutral moderators to determine what side of the line specific events fall on. For example: "Players should refrain from making promises relating to anything they care about outside of the game. Failure to do so will result in warnings or other penalties at the discretion of the forum moderators." Something along the lines of that. Keep it vague and make sure that human supervision is involved.
In this specific incidence, I don't think the out of game chatter should have much to do with anything. I'm more concerned with the arguments and flaming that happened immediately afterwards and with the clear rule violation of posting a full quoted role PM. (Although he posted that after he was already dead and moments before the moderator would have posted it anyway. It had no actual effect on the game and is therefore slightly less troublesome.)
That's my opinion on the matter. I don't think any of this interferes with the ongoing game. I leave it up to the council to make the decisions on these matters.
This is another of the reasons that the rule has remained informal, up till now. It was argued that players can and should disregard such promises. However, it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, even so, which is why they're frowned upon.
Given that you haven't read your PM, I can't continue to discuss this at length. I'd like to know if you have read the game in question to see what occured, and where the bolded above occured? It appears to me as if you don't understand what actually happened.
I'm referring to Random Mafia.
Quote from Artifice101 »
And again, your nebulous language leads me to believe that I'm not allowed to argue my position. I'm being prejudged without a trial.
You're certainly allowed to argue your position. However, this IS the trial, and I'm alerting you to the fact that you're not being terribly convincing at the moment. I've read your PM, and I don't understand why delay is relevant to making a defense of your actions, as far as private communication with the council is concerned.
Quote from Artifice »
Please don't compare me to him. This is exactly the opposite of his problems, as I understand them. His slimeball behavior of ripping and his anti-social game destructive issues to the detriment of his team were the issue. I am trying to help my team with my behavior. The comparison if unfounded and inflamatory. Please, don't make it.
No, I'm afraid that Nakamura actually did several of the unfortunate rules violations he committed in an effort to aid his team. And I don't see how disregarding the sportsmanship standards of the subforum in the name of aiding your team improves the situation.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Making fun of people who swear on OoG things seems like the simplest approach.
Also lol comparing Naka to Art.
It's not that simple, because that doesn't make in game situations just go away. The playerbase still has to act, and shouldn't be guilt tripped about it. And we're all humans. When someone says 'I swear on my kids', it IS going to give you pause. But you shouldn't have to figure that out in a game of mafia. That is just not part of the game.
But it's against the spirit of the game, is the point, here. What's to stop Mafia from degenerating into a "well I swear on my dog" "well I swear on my car" battle? OHOK GUYS EVERYONE IS TOWN GAME OVER
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Get it straight, it was Harry Potter Mafia....and the scum still won that game :-P.
But yes, cryptoclaiming was banned, at least to the extent that it was done en-mass to force everyone to lock in their claims on day 1.
It wasn't as clearly defined however, and various other ways of subclaiming have been allowed. Whatever is being cryptoclaimed or whatever may or may not be banned in a certain situation....the key is that you're allowed to encrypt information to be revealed later (Cop results for instance) or hide them in posts....but they can't be used as a whole to basically force claims early in game.
It's a really really fine line. I thought the general rule was to ask your mod if a proposed subclaim would be fine.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Zionite has access to the unencrypted version of my post. You can ask him if you are needing more information about the ruling in this specific situation. I had no idea any ruling would be necessary though, as there was no rule preventing me from posting that.
Yah, the town designed foolproof way to win and let you get away with mason gambit.
in unrelated news:
Hi Loran.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Yes.
Also Hi. But I'm still retired.
EDIT:
You're correct of course. The situation is indeed an oversight, which will be corrected, I'm sure. (I think the cryptoclaiming thing is in an old thread but I can't find it atm)
That said, it is up to the mod on whether to allow it.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Since no other council members replied within the next 2 pages, I assume that it was the councils decision (one which I think is perfectly acceptable, as while crypto-claims are good, any game where the mafia are provided false claims gets past them) since it leaves open possible design space in the future.
This should probably be added to some list of rules somewhere so noobs are not confused.
I do not agree with 1 uniform rules set, as all games are different and as such need different rules. I also think it takes the fun out of the stolen rules, which while most mods now dont include it, the list of names is usually amusing.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Rule number Seven(under threat of modkill) was added due to me asking the mod if I could set up a code to talk with my oneshot mason buddy during the day.
Until then I had never heard of it so I understand where DragonH is coming from.
Also in Ogre Mafia Seppel tried to do the same thing.
It's clear that the rules aren't clear enough about this.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Art shouldn't be banned from mafia, what is going on in this place?
LOL
Who said that Artifice is going to be banned?
Zionite said he was of the opinion that Artifice should be banned because of him posting his role PM in Cyberpunk.
I personally disagree unless he does it again.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
LOL
I'd like to not compound the drama.
===================================
All that being said, the timeline seems to be long on this ruling. If, as atlseal suggests, I'm not likely to be removed from games, can I please be given a ruling as to whether I can join tordeck's game? We are hours away from role PM's being sent.
It is the only game firing at the moment, and I would very much like the green light to know that I won't be yanked out of it as it tries to fire, for his sake and mine as my game count is dwindling, fast.
Thanks for your attention, regardless as to the result.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
The Family
All of this to demonstrate tordeck's willingness to include me, for clarity.
BTW @tordeck: thanks for that.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Just to clarify, as it seems people are misunderstanding, Artifice didn't JUST quote his role PM. He also swore on his children he wasn't lying about forgetting his role PM was colorless, unlike the revealed PMs. Almost every player found this to be terribly bad form. This on top of the PM quoting, I can't help but suggest at least a temporary ban.
I'm more than willing to discuss all of this, and to dredge up the previous arguments to this effect. Just not now. Compounding the perceived problem seems like the wrong route to take.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
The council makes decisions that are best for the entire player base. If that base doesn't completely understand what happened, they may misinterpret the council's action later. Simple as that. If you were really concerned with the health of my game, you wouldn't have acted how you did.
I'm not trying to be a dick. I just have an interest in my players and want to make sure that their thoughts are considered.
My suggestion is that we keep things simple and argue the merits at a later date for the sake of the continued health of your game, whether you believe me or not. You aren't impartial anymore. Accept that, please?
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Obviously Artifice is just hoping that some people will forget about it/care less whenever Zionite's game ends(which will probably be a couple of months from now). But I think he's waiting on nothing there, as the vocal parties in this matter are going to be just as fervent later as we are now.
Also, you shouldn't be commenting here as you are in said ongoing game. The statement that the discussion will have no bearing on alignments is less accurate than saying people's alignments will have a bearing on the discussion. I, for one, want to wait to protect the rest of the game. To be clear, on all I hold dear, the above is the absolute truth. This includes my children, for reference, obv.
I ask for a formal council ruling on when discussion of this subject will be deemed appropriate, please.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
edit aimed at cyan got snarfed by art
The Family
I have, in fact, always been disdainful of that rule, because it assumes that players are rejects that will leak ingame information when discussing something that is actually off-topic.
Besides, waiting on this cannot hurt Artifice, and can only benefit him. Of course that is what he is going to want. I don't see why he should get that courtesy.
Until then, please be respectful and do not exacerbate the problem. This applies to all users posting here.
The council will take action prior to the end of the game, but at this point, I'd recommend that any statements from players be submitted to the council via PM to protect the game's integrity.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What about self-voting to make a point?
What about mentioning things happening outside the game (i.e. loggin in to MTGS, being seen on other sites or in real life)?
What about promises that don't involve "real life" but do involve personal things of importance?
What about site Mods effecting game integrity?
What about all of the other issues that need to be discussed, with ALL the information on the table (i.e. when the game is over, as i've suggested above)? And where does it all end?
How exactly is a townie supposed to express themselves without being a robot? I mean I will be submitting something to you. Not a problem. But I can't do so fairly until this game is actually over. Have you read the events in question?
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Iso and Pinkfloyd and Art and others having been making bets for well over a year now if I have my timeline correct.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
1. Out-of-game wagers have been considered inappropriate since myself and Axel (mostly me) set a benchmark for ugliness with them in random mafia. It's been an informal and unwritten rule up till now for the sake of trying to avoid rules proliferation, but apparently we've reached a stage where that's no longer a good approach.
2. Because it's an unwritten rule, I feel that the council's jurisdiction is not quite as wide-ranging as it otherwise could be. Which is not to say that I feel our hands are altogether tied on this issue.
3. Artifice, you've been rubbing an awful lot of people the wrong way with that hyper-competitive attitude we've discussed previously, and the outcry we're seeing here is very much symptomatic of that. That has been a continuing problem. I'm not sure I really got through to you, the first time around. Perhaps this time, we can have a more productive discussion.
Your actions and attitudes - the perception that you're not big on sportmanship or considering the enjoyment of others - have begun impacting a lot of people. It's becoming a problem for the health of the entire sub. That is not a good thing. Until recently we haven't had to worry much about this kind of issue, but it is the sort of breakdown that the council is charged with preventing.
Do you see how what's going on here is in any way problematic?
This is a game of lies. I prefer to play it honorably. If that has a side-effect, part of it is that it forces me to be more creative when I random into scum... on and on.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Given that I cannot in good conscience discuss the problem at hand and sufficiently defend myself while maintaining the health of Zionite's game, I would like to wait until I can. [Redacted -- I can't even say the next natural sentence... I will PM you, Az']
Suffice it to say lumping these arguments together and using language that makes being competative sound inexusable of course bastardizes my position beyond any reasonable defense.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Admittedly, I was being truthful (he just couldn't find it or something), but is this new rule striking down things like that, where one can prove that another may or may not be lying based on what they say is keeping them busy OoG?
If that's an affirmative, can we no longer use the "is posting elsewhere on the site" line of thought as an attack?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As covered below, I don't believe we want to begin policing that type of things. Facts, whether in-game or out-of-game, can still be referenced and proven. We simply don't want wagers or promises.
That's not exactly pertinent to the topic. We're not discussing the sleaziness of some third-party person who tries to invent a family illness to excuse their lurking. I'm sure that's happened before, and while it's distasteful, it's a can of worms I'd rather not attempt to police or double-check. That's more of a karma issue.
What we're discussing is your particular case, which is something which HAS been previously addressed, and outlawed, due to the bad taste that it leaves in players' mouths.
You are not exactly filling me with confidence that you're going to have a change of heart or some kind of epiphany on this issue.
When Nakamura was banned from this site, the root causes were very similar to what I'm seeing here. He was not able to realize or admit how what he was doing was wrong, and he appeared to have very little regard for others. That is an excellent recipe for a festering problem.
EDIT:
Of course.
Ok.
At times, being overly competitive is inexcusable. That's the line we're concerned with here, and it's why there's a group of people who are very ticked off with you ITT.
If you are going to pass a rule banning that type of behavior, it should be worded in a way that makes it a principle or guideline and not a hard rule. There will always be gray areas in these situations and you need to have the rule specifically leave it up to neutral moderators to determine what side of the line specific events fall on. For example: "Players should refrain from making promises relating to anything they care about outside of the game. Failure to do so will result in warnings or other penalties at the discretion of the forum moderators." Something along the lines of that. Keep it vague and make sure that human supervision is involved.
In this specific incidence, I don't think the out of game chatter should have much to do with anything. I'm more concerned with the arguments and flaming that happened immediately afterwards and with the clear rule violation of posting a full quoted role PM. (Although he posted that after he was already dead and moments before the moderator would have posted it anyway. It had no actual effect on the game and is therefore slightly less troublesome.)
That's my opinion on the matter. I don't think any of this interferes with the ongoing game. I leave it up to the council to make the decisions on these matters.
Given that you haven't read your PM, I can't continue to discuss this at length. I'd like to know if you have read the game in question to see what occured, and where the bolded above occured? It appears to me as if you don't understand what actually happened.
And again, your nebulous language leads me to believe that I'm not allowed to argue my position. I'm being prejudged without a trial.
Please don't compare me to him. This is exactly the opposite of his problems, as I understand them. His slimeball behavior of ripping and his anti-social game destructive issues to the detriment of his team were the issue. I am trying to help my team with my behavior. The comparison if unfounded and inflamatory. Please, don't make it.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Let's say that what you did in Zionite's game was perfectly allowable. Like Zindabad said, every game state would devolve into EVERY player saying 'I swear on my mom/cat/kids/collection of cabbage patch kids that I am not scum. And surely I would not make this kind of oath if I didn't mean it'.
And...then what? Clearly some of them would be lying. But how would you figure it out?
This is also why lurking is frowned upon, you know. If it wasn't, everyone could just lurk, and nothing would ever happen. There is a certain code and spirit of the game that everyone expects everyone else to uphold.
Crypto claims were banned for the same reason.
Ultimately, mafia is just a game. No matter how much you win or how well you perform, there is no prize. It is supposed to be fun and competitive. And like everything competitive, it has rules. Rules that most people have no problem following.
This is another of the reasons that the rule has remained informal, up till now. It was argued that players can and should disregard such promises. However, it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, even so, which is why they're frowned upon.
I'm referring to Random Mafia.
You're certainly allowed to argue your position. However, this IS the trial, and I'm alerting you to the fact that you're not being terribly convincing at the moment. I've read your PM, and I don't understand why delay is relevant to making a defense of your actions, as far as private communication with the council is concerned.
No, I'm afraid that Nakamura actually did several of the unfortunate rules violations he committed in an effort to aid his team. And I don't see how disregarding the sportsmanship standards of the subforum in the name of aiding your team improves the situation.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Already addressed in 5307, right?
I feel like DragonHeart's approach is best.
Making fun of people who swear on OoG things seems like the simplest approach.
Also lol comparing Naka to Art.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's not that simple, because that doesn't make in game situations just go away. The playerbase still has to act, and shouldn't be guilt tripped about it. And we're all humans. When someone says 'I swear on my kids', it IS going to give you pause. But you shouldn't have to figure that out in a game of mafia. That is just not part of the game.
Everybody should just accept that Art did his best to avoid being lynched and move on.
I don't see why Art doing everything he could do to not get lynched is an issue.
It's the goal of Mafia.
Art swears on his kids because he cares so much about being lynched is his Town Meta.
Chalk it up and move on.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is a complete non-issue as far as I am concerned.
Art did his best not to get lynched.
He used appeal to emotion in doing so.
He got lynched.
Art using Appeal to Emotion is not a clear cut tell for him because he flipped town.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]