Hitman really isn't an SK. If a town knows definitely that someone is a Hitman(not sure how they would, but I'm sure it's come up), they don't even really have to kill the person, they just work it out together. An SK needs everyone else to die, and accordingly, is going to fire constantly, and mostly is going to kill townies. A Hitman interacts differently.
Geez, the scum really had a doctor? The only possible way to justify the use of one in the scum is if both:
a)Town doesn't has one.
b)There's a SK or vig running rampant.
By giving the scum a doc while the town also have one the mod just does a disservice to the scum, it's almost like giving a bogus falseclaim. The scum would be probably best served with a goon.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
DRey definitely put a better effort into this game than many people that played from the outset.
Um. Uh. AE? Seems legit.
I was overly harsh with my words. I've allowed circumstances external to this game to color my feelings.
DRey played well for someone who hadn't read the thread. That said, not reading a thread upon replacing in is horrendous. I don't think we should be encouraging that sort of behavior under any circumstances.
I don't need any encouragement, from my understanding players do whatever they want in mafia (unless it's against their wincon, like claiming scum as town or naming your team as scum). Besides I didn't want to play the game, I was busy and the game looked really complex to my tastes. I only played because Iso said "me or modkill" and I owned him one.
Note that I'm not saying I'm an example to follow or that not rereading a game is tech, far from it, game was in auto-pilot anyway right after I joined, with a cop that copped everyone else and lynching two scum in a row. I just put an effort in the end (I reread all Eron and Void posts) to have arguments for not lynching WG because he was a strong town read.
Ah, one last thing people need to understand. Strongly defending others is a towntell, usually scum doesn't want to get too involved in defending others because either it's against their wincon(defending town) or nonsense(because which scum want to strongly defend a mate?). When scum want to defend town they usually waffle and don't provide real alternatives "I don't really believe X is scum". Seppel charged defense of Shark made me 90% sure both of them were town.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
This isn't getting a lot of notice because of Uroboros, but I just thought of this: Nis's role is kinda broken too. There's no way around it, except for the other broken ability.
@Cyan (re: me being lynched): You should check out the spec QT when that gets posted.
Yes, that was also my feeling Meg. I know I had convinced WG already and you were warming up to my idea of lynching Cyan. Btw that was my plan from the start (lynching Cyan or AE, all others were unacceptable lynches), being lynched never crossed my ming as lynching confirmed town me would not advance town position at the least. I was just posturing for some town credit, I can never get enough of town credit.
Yep; I figured AE was the last scum but I was cool with any universe in which both AE and Cyan were dead.
Nis's role did at least require some outside influence to turn on.
Yeah, but: double vote, untargetable, mod-confirmed. Any time untargetable and mod-confirmed appear together, it's not really fair for anti-town teams to deal with.
By giving the scum a doc while the town also have one the mod just does a disservice to the scum, it's almost like giving a bogus falseclaim. The scum would be probably best served with a goon.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh, Mao, please take to heart what we were saying about distracting gambits. I've seen a lot of towns lose because of them, and they really don't help as much as you think, generally.
I presume that even though cyan was scum he would have said the same thing as town (though perhaps with different end goals).
I have acknowledged this and I still do. I just thought that I was being given waaay too much heat for it given that the result was rather helpful to Town: dC would have gone for me that Night, and for Cyan the Night after (because he kind of slipped that he was Wesker) and then he would have won the game.
In my defense, too, my second gambit (threatening to vig Cyan and tracking Void instead, worked wonders).
Is Cyan always this defensive in games? Whenever Mao pressed on him he turned up the OMGUS attacks to 11.
Is that so? I was attacking Mao long before he ever said a single word to me. And my going after him was what made him 'decide' that I was scum in the first place, which is a fairly common newb response to pressure.
When Mao 'pressed' on me I went to great effort to explain why his attacks were awful. Because they were. The end result doesn't make a bad argument better. When you think that someone is scum, you have to prove it in a way that makes sense to everyone else, and take's that person's individual history into account.
You appear to be confused as to what 'OMGUS' means. Delving deeper into the context of the acronym, it means "Here is why you are scum for attacking me". And even THEN, sometimes, you can be correctly retaliate against someone for a poor attack against you.
I didn't OMGUS Maokun. His arguments were, and I told him as much. There is a difference, and the conversation would have been the same had I been town.
Yes, the first time I pointed an FoS at you was definitely OMGUSy, but afterwards, I started to dig for your intentions behind that and found you actually scummy.
I already apologised to Seppel in QT but I'll do it again here. It was undoubtedly my biggest mistake and I'm quite ashamed. Otherwise, I think I wasn't too bad this game. I was right about Kpaca, I was right about Shark, it was right to rolecop dC in N2, it was right to track Void in N3, I was right about EtR, I was right about Void (except the role), I was right about Cyan, I was right about WG at the end (when I was expected to vig him and chose against).
Moreover, it was a great learning experience and a lot of fun. I've learned that I have good instincts but I'm dreadful at casing, and yeah, that I should go easy with Town gambits. The setting was great, the roles were cool and though some unbalancing caused a chance resolution, I think the game as a whole was quite enjoyable through the months it lasted. I hope that Iso keeps making games like this with the help of the stern lessons learned here.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
I'm having terrible flashbacks to Points Mafia. I thought the lesson had been learned from that about multi-voting roles and endgames from our mistake there. I was apparently mistaken.
I'm having terrible flashbacks to Points Mafia. I thought the lesson had been learned from that about multi-voting roles and endgames from our mistake there. I was apparently mistaken.
I thought so too. I'm honestly not even particularly disturbed by not winning. Even if I had won the race, it wouldn't have been a real 'mafia win', it would have just been dumb role/timing gaming. As I told Iso in the scum QT, I seriously considered just conceding, but I just couldn't freely give the win to a town group that played so poorly(in my opinion, at least).
@Maokun: The thing is that, the things that you thought that I did that were scummy are just how I play the game. I always lead wagons, I am not discouraged from leading more wagons by people flipping town, etc. I only half pay attention to what is going on outside of what I am directly focused on. This is not scum behavior for me. It is my constant behavior, I just happened to be scum THIS time. I play this way on purpose, because it throws people off. When you play super cautious and so on, it is easy for people to defend themselves against you, because they know what to expect. Especially given that that is how almost everyone plays. But when your playstyle involves a bit of controlled/planned chaos, it is very effective no matter what your alignment is. You were not right about me. You just happened to be right THIS TIME because you didn't know any differently. Please don't take this personally, because it's not an attempt to discredit you or make you feel bad. You had some good instincts this game.
Oh, wow, that ended up a bit of a mess, didn't it? I'm almost glad I got lynched.
I actually don't really think the setup was unbalanced. Cyan's role was absurd, Nis's role was absurd, and both sides had access to a number of ridiculous abilities via mutation. It was, however, swingy - so much so that a case could be made that the game came down to abilities rather than to playing Mafia.
Where I think this game suffered, unfortunately, was in the moderation. Iso, I hope you take this as constructive criticism, but a game moderator really should be trying to lessen the impact of his or her own presence on the game as much as possible. In that vein, you made a number of highly questionable choices. I saw the whole uproar about vote counts on one of the times I glanced through spectator chat, and I remember being highly annoyed when I first looked over mafiachat and saw you letting them know about what the Butcher did ahead of time by accident - and while that was an accident, I understand from other posts in the spectator chat that you advised the mafia a couple of times as well. On the flip side, you had the inexplicable choice to name the day 'The Butcher Rises' when you knew Cantrip had rolecopped EtR, and I'm not convinced that you explored all options before letting KosaKosa replace in for Magenta.
Gameplay-wise, I actually don't think either side played well at all. The town was floundering around for most of the game, with the exception of Megiddo and to a certain extent Cantrip. The mafia had exactly one player who played well - Cyan. kpaca's hospital plan was a giant red flag and Void simply wasn't good enough at appearing town to get rid of that, ganderin/EtR were obvious as heck, and AI basically suicided.
Player comments:
@Cyan: Ironically, if I hadn't made that gaffe (and KosaKosa not been still around to call me on it :mad:) and had the Maokun lynch gone through, I might have shot you that night or the following night. I figured you were my one scum target, and since I thought I probably had around 3 targets I was trying to find my town targets first. But if Maokun flipped town I might have shot you to get town cred. Heh.
Although I would probably never have thought you scum if not for past history in Britannia Rebellion Mafia, so there's that.
@Maokun: Your gambits may have turned out well in result, but were definitely flawed in execution. If I hadn't made that mistake, you would undoubtedly have been lynched, probably quicklynched via Cyan. And while your town reads were fairly good, much the same applies to me and applied to Cyan - you were suspicious of us basically because we went after you. You yourself said that you rolecopped me because you were suspicious of the way I was 'tunneling' on you, but that's basically exactly what I do as town, trying to find scum.
That being said, your general play was still better than many others this game, so I'll give you that. Don't feel bad about shooting Seppel night 1, by the way - he was pretty wrong about many things, and would have been a distraction day 2. And without the knowledge of there being an actual vig around, I probably would have never chosen to shoot Kosa.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
@dC: Void was able to double protect every night, and I was one of his targets every night as well. I don't think you would have had much success killing me.
I agree with dC re: Seppel, also. He was a fine vig target, though generally you don't want to vig people that are unclaimed. Especially in a no reveal game.
@dC: AI's suicide set up Cyan perfectly, though, so I think that it was actually a good play. AI wasn't going to last another day, anyway.
I'll see what Iso has to say about Plagas in general, but I know that from my perspective, after looking over the setup, I basically feel that the effectiveness of Plagas would come down to whether I hit Maokun or not. If I hit Maokun's role, then Plagas would have probably carried the game, honestly -- but given how Maokun was playing compared to some others, I wouldn't have chosen him, which spelled my death sentence early.
I don't think that Nis was a bad selection, though -- especially since it was able to dispel the whole Cult Leader thing completely.
Yeah I was very much fixated on that D1, which is why I chose to cop AI. He was likely scum anyway and choosing a "cultist" set us up well in case you actually were lying.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Yeah I was very much fixated on that D1, which is why I chose to cop AI. He was likely scum anyway and choosing a "cultist" set us up well in case you actually were lying.
Questionable posts + lurky behavior get my attention every time (oh, and, of course, you claimed to have started in Spencer Mansion, and I was trying to find Zombies who started there). That said, I was so fixated on finding Zombies who started in Spencer Mansion that I almost forgot that I had learned you were the Butcher when Iso posted the torturing bit.
My reads were at the bit that I read D1 were: Seppel and Shark both town, Cantrip scum (don't really remember why but I was pissed everyone was seeing him as town). After I replaced in my reads were: Cyan scum, WG town. Meg and Kosa were also town because of role.
But I was town!
I'm a little miffed that D5 ended so quickly, without me getting a chance to check in. Yes, I was on baby V/LA, but still: I got infected, becoming a licker, so could have confirmed that AE's terrible role (licker) really was that terrible role, and, more importantly, that Cyan had no mutations even though he claimed that he did, which would have sealed his fate as scum. Instead the day ended early and Cyan (wisely) killed me. I don't care if Megiddo found scum; don't end the day before everyone checks in!!!
So, most of my comments on the setup are in the Spectator chat (including my commentary on Las Plagas and the G-Virus vs. Uroboros).
I will say again that I am tremendously sorry for my slip-shod moderating during this game. Things got insane for me IRL and I made a LOT of mistakes. I have no intention of running a game this complex again, at least not without a co-host to help me keep up on small triggers and things like that. I was working a ridiculous amount and was perpetually exhausted so a lot of things slipped my mind (like KCC's ability, for example). I wish that hadn't been the case, but that's how it happened.
Regarding Uroboros vs. Nis's role, they were actually designed to counteract each other in an endgame scenario. Nis actually would have died on Night 1 if I hadn't decided to make his t+G strain an Untargetable role over Unkillable at the last second. There was a lot of the setup that was designed to fall to chance + players' personal styles of Mafia. In the end, the location mechanic was specifically meant to overcome any power creep that the town might have had as a result of outlasting the scum, as well as helping with the balance of the roles who could not be mutated. I've seen a lot of people say that the scum team was underpowered, but with a Double Doc/Self-Reviver in a setup with a full Vig and a Hitman (who was out to get one of their own, not to mention the possibility of the town having two 1-Shot Daykills), a Double Roleblocker/Daykill Immunity in a setup with a lot of town power (albeit mostly through mutation), a vote/lynch threshold booster that was a Godfather, and a delayed poisoner, the mafia was pretty stacked against the biggest threats that the town had.
I think that the setup overall turned out more or less how I wanted it to be run (though I was hoping for a longer run from Las Plagas), and that a lot of the disgruntled feelings are a result of my poor modding + the way certain events transpired as a result of how a few players played.
If I had to give out MVPs, then Megiddo would be the town's (for obvious reasons), and Cyan would be the mafia's (again, for obvious reasons).
I'm sorry most of you simply didn't enjoy this game or my Specialty, but I plan to be more careful about the roles that I include in my future games and I hope that this performance won't deter any of you from joining Iso games from now on.
As stated, I've been experimenting, pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable in a role and what isn't. I'm disappointed that so many people disagreed with my experimentation, but I've learned a lot from my last two games.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Cyan pulled out his gun, firing it furiously at the two infected beasts lumbering towards him...but to no avail. He quickly tossed aside his sidearm and began to engage in physical combat against the invincible Tyrant and the deadly G, but despite his enhanced combat abilities and the aid of the Uroboros Virus, he was unable to penetrate the electromagnetic field that Nis was generating. Kosakosa began a furious mutation, turning into a spindle-legged creature, and pounced on Cyan. Cyan smacked Kosakosa around a few times, but upon kicking Kosakosa down an elevator shaft, Nis's arm blade impaled Cyan through the heart.
Buh-bump.
Buh-bump.
Buh...bump.
B...
Cyan is dead. Albert Wesker is no more.
The towns have been quarantined.
The government was going to nuke them.
Everything was okay again.
At least until the sequel...
-
Cyan was Albert Wesker.
Kosakosa was William Birkin, aka G.
Nis was Sherry Birkin.
Survival Horror Mafia has ended in a Town Victory!
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1. The Cultist issue is a massive one. While I appreciate the idea of having a town-aligned clique / supergroup, if it EVER comes out, it's basically impossible to fight against. The only way I was able to stand vs it at all is that AI was willing to back me up. If AI had said that he started the game as a cultist, I would have been a free D1 lynch -- it's just that simple.
2. Ties in with that. While I do agree that starting the game with a town/mason bud is probably too powerful, I think that starting with a scum as part of Plagas is too damning for the Saddler role. AI chose to play his part riskily, I think -- if I had been scum in AI's position, I think I would have immediately outed the Saddler role as a cult leader. It's a literal free mislynch for the scum. Yeah, they don't get the potential benefits of Plagas, but that's always an outside shot anyway since most of the people Saddler would want to recruit would be the people the scumteam would want to kill. If you were going to run the game again, I would suggest that Saddler start either completely alone, or else with a Vanilla Town Plagas who is otherwise immune to mutations or some such. Possibly the survivor role.
3. The lack of a readily available Plagas doc. In the way that Plagas was set up, I was doomed to die as soon as AI died, or as soon as the scumteam realized that they weren't going to get anything useful from me. While obviously giving multiple roles the Doc Plagas mutation would be overpowered, I think that you could set up something whereby like the 2nd Plagas recruit is a guaranteed Doc mutation, but then none afterward. Or something....I dunno. When I looked over the setup after I died, I just felt that the odds were ludicrously stacked against me.
Forget everything about the setup; the flavor needed more Fatal Frame
Having skimmed your Vote Shenanigans trilogy on Colo (well, mainly the third), I think your "experiments" there were more successful in general, if only because most of the roles were just as fun without being as swingy, like the Votefather that chose how to distribute the mafia's votes. Or maybe things just worked out more fortunately over there.
1. Yes, the two town roles who were immune to mutations were supposed to deter modgaming and give the mafia a hand because they could easily be spun as Neutrals, whereas the actual Neutrals were also immune to mutations.
2. That was one of the points of the role. The scum needed to know Las Plagas existed. If you had figured out that AI was, in fact, mafia for sure, then it was up to you to be tactful about that. Las Plagas was in the hands of the scum from the start for that reason, and gave them a slight edge in the "secret town cult". It's definitely a role that requiers skill to play effectively.
3. Again, that was part of how you had to play the role to be effective.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso: Well, the problem with #2 is that I was able to rightfully deduce that you did just that - sticking a scum in Las Plagas as a balance. I mean, AI was scummy enough on his own that I thought he should've been the D1 lynch, anyway ( <3 AI ), but that kinda sealed the deal for me.
Giving Arianrhod his choice to recruit before the game, I think, gives it more of the cult feel you were looking for (to be spun as a neutral).
Forget everything about the setup; the flavor needed more Fatal Frame
Having skimmed your Vote Shenanigans trilogy on Colo (well, mainly the third), I think your "experiments" there were more successful in general, if only because most of the roles were just as fun without being as swingy, like the Votefather that chose how to distribute the mafia's votes. Or maybe things just worked out more fortunately over there.
Heh. If I had played Fatal Frame, maybe.
Yeah, the Vote Shenanigans roles were basically variations of roles that I've wanted to experiment with to see if they were viable. The third was full of jokes from the first two, though.
Edit @ DYH: Of course, that was if you had originally gotten around the idea of Arianrhod being a cult leader.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Cyan/AI/Scum: So AI's bad flavor-attack on Cyan was because...you felt AI was going down anyway and you wanted to distance/give Cyan town-cred by bussing? If so, it felt a touch over the top and was one of the reasons I started suspecting Cyan.
EDIT: @Iso, I didn't really have many issues with the setup/roles, but I'm more lenient in that regard. I enjoyed playing this game.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
"I swear to god when I finally get into designing and hosting games I'm going to do a "**** DRey Said Couldn't Happen" Mafia."
Also loved the concept/top down design of the game, and I really wish this game would be known for that rather than the trainwreck ending. Mutations that grant abilities and can cross mutate to grant other abilities tickles the designer in me.
The mutation concept was good, the location concept was good, and most of the roles had some elegance to them.
Cyan and KCC's roles were just completely terrible design and shouldn't have existed, though.
If you remove the survivor (which is never fun to play) and Cyan's role, and include a fifth mafia, the game probbbably would have been fairly balanced, as well as enjoyable - as I think that'd have removed all of the anti-fun mechanics.
I actually think an interesting spin on the setup that would have probably resulted in a much better-received game would have been giving Arianrhod the Night 0 recruit and having whoever he recruited become the 5th scum in lieu of a Survivor.
Hell, maybe the setup would have been better with randomized mutations and alignments.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Cyan/AI/Scum: So AI's bad flavor-attack on Cyan was because...you felt AI was going down anyway and you wanted to distance/give Cyan town-cred by bussing? If so, it felt a touch over the top and was one of the reasons I started suspecting Cyan.
As I said in the spec chat, I did think Cyan claiming to be the source of Uroboros was as bad as claiming scum. Obviously, that came from inside knowledge, so it was ultimately a Bad Idea.
Someone please remember me to talk about this setup once my game finishes.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I actually think an interesting spin on the setup that would have probably resulted in a much better-received game would have been giving Arianrhod the Night 0 recruit and having whoever he recruited become the 5th scum in lieu of a Survivor.
Hell, maybe the setup would have been better with randomized mutations and alignments.
To be clear, I'm not condemning you or your game at all. I feel that Plagas was a fascinating area of the setup that could possibly be improved on, sure -- but I certainly had fun while the game lasted, and it was fun watching Nis and Wheat carry on the crusade after I fell.
I actually think an interesting spin on the setup that would have probably resulted in a much better-received game would have been giving Arianrhod the Night 0 recruit and having whoever he recruited become the 5th scum in lieu of a Survivor.
Hell, maybe the setup would have been better with randomized mutations and alignments.
The setup was really cool overall; it's just Nis and Cyan that were a problem.
Have their roles not be so bonkers and I'd be voting you host of the year.
Have their roles not be so bonkers and I'd be voting you host of the year.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Personally, I enjoyed the game. I feel like this was my best scum performance so far. Rats to you Cantrip for finding out I was the butcher. There really was no way out of that (that I could see)
a)Town doesn't has one.
b)There's a SK or vig running rampant.
By giving the scum a doc while the town also have one the mod just does a disservice to the scum, it's almost like giving a bogus falseclaim. The scum would be probably best served with a goon.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Um. Uh. AE? Seems legit.
I was overly harsh with my words. I've allowed circumstances external to this game to color my feelings.
DRey played well for someone who hadn't read the thread. That said, not reading a thread upon replacing in is horrendous. I don't think we should be encouraging that sort of behavior under any circumstances.
Note that I'm not saying I'm an example to follow or that not rereading a game is tech, far from it, game was in auto-pilot anyway right after I joined, with a cop that copped everyone else and lynching two scum in a row. I just put an effort in the end (I reread all Eron and Void posts) to have arguments for not lynching WG because he was a strong town read.
Ah, one last thing people need to understand. Strongly defending others is a towntell, usually scum doesn't want to get too involved in defending others because either it's against their wincon(defending town) or nonsense(because which scum want to strongly defend a mate?). When scum want to defend town they usually waffle and don't provide real alternatives "I don't really believe X is scum". Seppel charged defense of Shark made me 90% sure both of them were town.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@Cyan (re: me being lynched): You should check out the spec QT when that gets posted.
Yep; I figured AE was the last scum but I was cool with any universe in which both AE and Cyan were dead.
Yeah, but: double vote, untargetable, mod-confirmed. Any time untargetable and mod-confirmed appear together, it's not really fair for anti-town teams to deal with.
Town had multiple stupid roles, scum had one. Recipe for a swingy game, and that's what we got.
edit: I was going to post this if I got NK'd:
CCMIV. We lost Cythare/Keifru to that.
So yeah, I have a lot to say about this game. I'll do that and post the final scene when I can get to a computer.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I have acknowledged this and I still do. I just thought that I was being given waaay too much heat for it given that the result was rather helpful to Town: dC would have gone for me that Night, and for Cyan the Night after (because he kind of slipped that he was Wesker) and then he would have won the game.
In my defense, too, my second gambit (threatening to vig Cyan and tracking Void instead, worked wonders).
Yes, the first time I pointed an FoS at you was definitely OMGUSy, but afterwards, I started to dig for your intentions behind that and found you actually scummy.
I already apologised to Seppel in QT but I'll do it again here. It was undoubtedly my biggest mistake and I'm quite ashamed. Otherwise, I think I wasn't too bad this game. I was right about Kpaca, I was right about Shark, it was right to rolecop dC in N2, it was right to track Void in N3, I was right about EtR, I was right about Void (except the role), I was right about Cyan, I was right about WG at the end (when I was expected to vig him and chose against).
Moreover, it was a great learning experience and a lot of fun. I've learned that I have good instincts but I'm dreadful at casing, and yeah, that I should go easy with Town gambits. The setting was great, the roles were cool and though some unbalancing caused a chance resolution, I think the game as a whole was quite enjoyable through the months it lasted. I hope that Iso keeps making games like this with the help of the stern lessons learned here.
Thanks Iso and thanks everyone!
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I thought so too. I'm honestly not even particularly disturbed by not winning. Even if I had won the race, it wouldn't have been a real 'mafia win', it would have just been dumb role/timing gaming. As I told Iso in the scum QT, I seriously considered just conceding, but I just couldn't freely give the win to a town group that played so poorly(in my opinion, at least).
@Maokun: The thing is that, the things that you thought that I did that were scummy are just how I play the game. I always lead wagons, I am not discouraged from leading more wagons by people flipping town, etc. I only half pay attention to what is going on outside of what I am directly focused on. This is not scum behavior for me. It is my constant behavior, I just happened to be scum THIS time. I play this way on purpose, because it throws people off. When you play super cautious and so on, it is easy for people to defend themselves against you, because they know what to expect. Especially given that that is how almost everyone plays. But when your playstyle involves a bit of controlled/planned chaos, it is very effective no matter what your alignment is. You were not right about me. You just happened to be right THIS TIME because you didn't know any differently. Please don't take this personally, because it's not an attempt to discredit you or make you feel bad. You had some good instincts this game.
I actually don't really think the setup was unbalanced. Cyan's role was absurd, Nis's role was absurd, and both sides had access to a number of ridiculous abilities via mutation. It was, however, swingy - so much so that a case could be made that the game came down to abilities rather than to playing Mafia.
Where I think this game suffered, unfortunately, was in the moderation. Iso, I hope you take this as constructive criticism, but a game moderator really should be trying to lessen the impact of his or her own presence on the game as much as possible. In that vein, you made a number of highly questionable choices. I saw the whole uproar about vote counts on one of the times I glanced through spectator chat, and I remember being highly annoyed when I first looked over mafiachat and saw you letting them know about what the Butcher did ahead of time by accident - and while that was an accident, I understand from other posts in the spectator chat that you advised the mafia a couple of times as well. On the flip side, you had the inexplicable choice to name the day 'The Butcher Rises' when you knew Cantrip had rolecopped EtR, and I'm not convinced that you explored all options before letting KosaKosa replace in for Magenta.
Gameplay-wise, I actually don't think either side played well at all. The town was floundering around for most of the game, with the exception of Megiddo and to a certain extent Cantrip. The mafia had exactly one player who played well - Cyan. kpaca's hospital plan was a giant red flag and Void simply wasn't good enough at appearing town to get rid of that, ganderin/EtR were obvious as heck, and AI basically suicided.
Player comments:
@Cyan: Ironically, if I hadn't made that gaffe (and KosaKosa not been still around to call me on it :mad:) and had the Maokun lynch gone through, I might have shot you that night or the following night. I figured you were my one scum target, and since I thought I probably had around 3 targets I was trying to find my town targets first. But if Maokun flipped town I might have shot you to get town cred. Heh.
Although I would probably never have thought you scum if not for past history in Britannia Rebellion Mafia, so there's that.
@Maokun: Your gambits may have turned out well in result, but were definitely flawed in execution. If I hadn't made that mistake, you would undoubtedly have been lynched, probably quicklynched via Cyan. And while your town reads were fairly good, much the same applies to me and applied to Cyan - you were suspicious of us basically because we went after you. You yourself said that you rolecopped me because you were suspicious of the way I was 'tunneling' on you, but that's basically exactly what I do as town, trying to find scum.
That being said, your general play was still better than many others this game, so I'll give you that. Don't feel bad about shooting Seppel night 1, by the way - he was pretty wrong about many things, and would have been a distraction day 2. And without the knowledge of there being an actual vig around, I probably would have never chosen to shoot Kosa.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I agree with dC re: Seppel, also. He was a fine vig target, though generally you don't want to vig people that are unclaimed. Especially in a no reveal game.
Spec/scumchat?
I'll see what Iso has to say about Plagas in general, but I know that from my perspective, after looking over the setup, I basically feel that the effectiveness of Plagas would come down to whether I hit Maokun or not. If I hit Maokun's role, then Plagas would have probably carried the game, honestly -- but given how Maokun was playing compared to some others, I wouldn't have chosen him, which spelled my death sentence early.
I don't think that Nis was a bad selection, though -- especially since it was able to dispel the whole Cult Leader thing completely.
Cool setup, bro.
Spectator Chat
Scumchat
Questionable posts + lurky behavior get my attention every time (oh, and, of course, you claimed to have started in Spencer Mansion, and I was trying to find Zombies who started there). That said, I was so fixated on finding Zombies who started in Spencer Mansion that I almost forgot that I had learned you were the Butcher when Iso posted the torturing bit.
But I was town!
I'm a little miffed that D5 ended so quickly, without me getting a chance to check in. Yes, I was on baby V/LA, but still: I got infected, becoming a licker, so could have confirmed that AE's terrible role (licker) really was that terrible role, and, more importantly, that Cyan had no mutations even though he claimed that he did, which would have sealed his fate as scum. Instead the day ended early and Cyan (wisely) killed me. I don't care if Megiddo found scum; don't end the day before everyone checks in!!!
I will say again that I am tremendously sorry for my slip-shod moderating during this game. Things got insane for me IRL and I made a LOT of mistakes. I have no intention of running a game this complex again, at least not without a co-host to help me keep up on small triggers and things like that. I was working a ridiculous amount and was perpetually exhausted so a lot of things slipped my mind (like KCC's ability, for example). I wish that hadn't been the case, but that's how it happened.
Regarding Uroboros vs. Nis's role, they were actually designed to counteract each other in an endgame scenario. Nis actually would have died on Night 1 if I hadn't decided to make his t+G strain an Untargetable role over Unkillable at the last second. There was a lot of the setup that was designed to fall to chance + players' personal styles of Mafia. In the end, the location mechanic was specifically meant to overcome any power creep that the town might have had as a result of outlasting the scum, as well as helping with the balance of the roles who could not be mutated. I've seen a lot of people say that the scum team was underpowered, but with a Double Doc/Self-Reviver in a setup with a full Vig and a Hitman (who was out to get one of their own, not to mention the possibility of the town having two 1-Shot Daykills), a Double Roleblocker/Daykill Immunity in a setup with a lot of town power (albeit mostly through mutation), a vote/lynch threshold booster that was a Godfather, and a delayed poisoner, the mafia was pretty stacked against the biggest threats that the town had.
I think that the setup overall turned out more or less how I wanted it to be run (though I was hoping for a longer run from Las Plagas), and that a lot of the disgruntled feelings are a result of my poor modding + the way certain events transpired as a result of how a few players played.
If I had to give out MVPs, then Megiddo would be the town's (for obvious reasons), and Cyan would be the mafia's (again, for obvious reasons).
I'm sorry most of you simply didn't enjoy this game or my Specialty, but I plan to be more careful about the roles that I include in my future games and I hope that this performance won't deter any of you from joining Iso games from now on.
As stated, I've been experimenting, pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable in a role and what isn't. I'm disappointed that so many people disagreed with my experimentation, but I've learned a lot from my last two games.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Cyan (3): Uroboros, Nis, Nis
That is a lynch.
-
Cyan pulled out his gun, firing it furiously at the two infected beasts lumbering towards him...but to no avail. He quickly tossed aside his sidearm and began to engage in physical combat against the invincible Tyrant and the deadly G, but despite his enhanced combat abilities and the aid of the Uroboros Virus, he was unable to penetrate the electromagnetic field that Nis was generating. Kosakosa began a furious mutation, turning into a spindle-legged creature, and pounced on Cyan. Cyan smacked Kosakosa around a few times, but upon kicking Kosakosa down an elevator shaft, Nis's arm blade impaled Cyan through the heart.
Buh-bump.
Buh-bump.
Buh...bump.
B...
Cyan is dead. Albert Wesker is no more.
The towns have been quarantined.
The government was going to nuke them.
Everything was okay again.
At least until the sequel...
-
Cyan was Albert Wesker.
Kosakosa was William Birkin, aka G.
Nis was Sherry Birkin.
Survival Horror Mafia has ended in a Town Victory!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1. The Cultist issue is a massive one. While I appreciate the idea of having a town-aligned clique / supergroup, if it EVER comes out, it's basically impossible to fight against. The only way I was able to stand vs it at all is that AI was willing to back me up. If AI had said that he started the game as a cultist, I would have been a free D1 lynch -- it's just that simple.
2. Ties in with that. While I do agree that starting the game with a town/mason bud is probably too powerful, I think that starting with a scum as part of Plagas is too damning for the Saddler role. AI chose to play his part riskily, I think -- if I had been scum in AI's position, I think I would have immediately outed the Saddler role as a cult leader. It's a literal free mislynch for the scum. Yeah, they don't get the potential benefits of Plagas, but that's always an outside shot anyway since most of the people Saddler would want to recruit would be the people the scumteam would want to kill. If you were going to run the game again, I would suggest that Saddler start either completely alone, or else with a Vanilla Town Plagas who is otherwise immune to mutations or some such. Possibly the survivor role.
3. The lack of a readily available Plagas doc. In the way that Plagas was set up, I was doomed to die as soon as AI died, or as soon as the scumteam realized that they weren't going to get anything useful from me. While obviously giving multiple roles the Doc Plagas mutation would be overpowered, I think that you could set up something whereby like the 2nd Plagas recruit is a guaranteed Doc mutation, but then none afterward. Or something....I dunno. When I looked over the setup after I died, I just felt that the odds were ludicrously stacked against me.
Having skimmed your Vote Shenanigans trilogy on Colo (well, mainly the third), I think your "experiments" there were more successful in general, if only because most of the roles were just as fun without being as swingy, like the Votefather that chose how to distribute the mafia's votes. Or maybe things just worked out more fortunately over there.
2. That was one of the points of the role. The scum needed to know Las Plagas existed. If you had figured out that AI was, in fact, mafia for sure, then it was up to you to be tactful about that. Las Plagas was in the hands of the scum from the start for that reason, and gave them a slight edge in the "secret town cult". It's definitely a role that requiers skill to play effectively.
3. Again, that was part of how you had to play the role to be effective.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Giving Arianrhod his choice to recruit before the game, I think, gives it more of the cult feel you were looking for (to be spun as a neutral).
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Heh. If I had played Fatal Frame, maybe.
Yeah, the Vote Shenanigans roles were basically variations of roles that I've wanted to experiment with to see if they were viable. The third was full of jokes from the first two, though.
Edit @ DYH: Of course, that was if you had originally gotten around the idea of Arianrhod being a cult leader.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
EDIT: @Iso, I didn't really have many issues with the setup/roles, but I'm more lenient in that regard. I enjoyed playing this game.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
"I swear to god when I finally get into designing and hosting games I'm going to do a "**** DRey Said Couldn't Happen" Mafia."
Also loved the concept/top down design of the game, and I really wish this game would be known for that rather than the trainwreck ending. Mutations that grant abilities and can cross mutate to grant other abilities tickles the designer in me.
The mutation concept was good, the location concept was good, and most of the roles had some elegance to them.
Cyan and KCC's roles were just completely terrible design and shouldn't have existed, though.
If you remove the survivor (which is never fun to play) and Cyan's role, and include a fifth mafia, the game probbbably would have been fairly balanced, as well as enjoyable - as I think that'd have removed all of the anti-fun mechanics.
Hell, maybe the setup would have been better with randomized mutations and alignments.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As I said in the spec chat, I did think Cyan claiming to be the source of Uroboros was as bad as claiming scum. Obviously, that came from inside knowledge, so it was ultimately a Bad Idea.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
To be clear, I'm not condemning you or your game at all. I feel that Plagas was a fascinating area of the setup that could possibly be improved on, sure -- but I certainly had fun while the game lasted, and it was fun watching Nis and Wheat carry on the crusade after I fell.
The setup was really cool overall; it's just Nis and Cyan that were a problem.
Have their roles not be so bonkers and I'd be voting you host of the year.
Setup of the year =|= Host of the year
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Sorry team. Gj to the town.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Whoops, yeah, setup of the year.
Thanks Iso for letting me replace in.
(Thank you, princess.)
Makes me chuckle though.