What exactly is the case on me? The votes on me right now are for various minor things that I pretty much do every game I'm in. Wessel's PBPA didn't make much of a case either from what I could tell.
I'm certainly not a fan of Rhand's little hop on the bandwagon there.
I am voting you because of your constant very weak reasonings.
You voted FO because of ":thumbsdown:" and then unvoted again, both times not bothering to give a reasoning.
When asked about it, you still give no reasoning.
Apparently you needed the pressure of a vote to finally come up with a motivation.
That's how I like to play.
Anyway, I believe I answered your question, so what is your reasoning for voting me currently?
Because your answer looks like you went searching for a reason to unvote FO after I asked you a second time and found nothing better than a wiki page.
@Rhand & AG: When they both refer to 'the gambit post', I'm not entirely sure they're referring to the same gambit post. I'm pretty sure Misting is talking about the 'Iso is a cop' post, but what FO is talking about seems to be something different? I'm not quite sure whether this is true or if their banter is just confusing me.
@IB: You thought I was scum in KoTH Mafia too, but I was town... Is my game play here any different from there? I'm sure there's less flailing, but yeah. Care to build a case on me? Or is naked voting how you roll?
Aren't you the one who was railing against meta? I have no clue how your play here is different (yet), but your actions are more important than meta. Especially when you only have one game to compare to. I don't care to build a case on you yet because I'd rather unvote; vote Tom. You're less experienced and I'm bad at reading noobs.
"I wouldn't be surprised if Iso were scum or town"
"I disagree whole-heartedly on your strong town read of Iso"
How do these two statements not contradict?
There is absolutely no contradiction there. I disagree that you are "exhibit[ing your] usual townie brazenness" as Wessel put it because I don't agree with the assessment that it paints you as strongly Town. That is in no way contradictory to the statement I made that I currently read you almost right down the middle.
In any case, I've responded in full to Wessel's sad little interpretation of me. I'm now waiting for you to proceed to relieve yourself on my posts and/or build some sort of a case on me. I look forward to responding to it.
(and the above is just one example)
Unvote, vote Tom.
I was about to make a statement that although I made a case against Tom on the request of Iso, my preference was still Forgotten One. However, Tom's ad hom of me and Iso (and other rudeness, and his earlier denial of doing so) makes me want him gone.
"Sad little interpretation" was definitely a negative way of stating it, but I'm rather frustrated at what is going on right now - a big waste of time. I apologize if I offended you..
I don't see how "relieve yourself" is ad hom, when it is another word for "piss", which is exactly what Iso said he was going to do.
I'm surprised that you want to lynch me just because I may have been rude, which I apologize for.
Can you respond to my response on your case of me? As of right now I still don't understand the wagon on me, and apparently Iso doesn't want to say anything until you do.
But you obviously weren't paying attention or you would know that someone was focusing on LMNOP. So how would you know?
I was paying attention, I just didn't notice that, as it was many posts and even a page behind everything else that was going on.
As for "the purpose of these comments", I'm making it clear how laughable your defense - which has mostly consisted of "THERE IS NO CASE ON ME~!!!" - is.
DEFENSE FROM WHAT?????
I've already responded to what Wessel had to say about me, which is the only thing I can find that somewhat resembles a case on me.
I haven't laid out solid points against you?
No. You've said "see what Wessel posted" and not much outside of that. And I've already responded to what Wessel posted, but you are refusing to comment on that until Wessel does.
If a large portion of what is against you has been said by Wessel already, why do I need to restate it?
Because half of what he said wasn't a case, and the other half I've already responded to by showing why he was incorrect. There currently isn't anything against me from Wessel. And certainly nothing from you.
Have you been reading my posts? You are building the case on yourself for me. As for why I think you're scum, what first didn't sit right with me was when you voted me, painted what I was doing in a scummy light, and then completely backed off on to FO without any reasoning offered whatsoever. The rest was all downhill from there.
Thank you for finally saying this. Would have wasted much less time if you had done this to begin with.
Now, how was I painting you in scummy light?
I think it was pretty clear at the time FO's posts weren't so great, so I'm not sure why I had to go into that in detail when I voted.
You say "it was all downhill from there." Please bring up some specific things "from there" that you think I'm scum for.
"He hasn't posted much content."
So you're gunning for someone who obviously doesn't know how to play the game instead of someone who has posted far more content and is obviously scummy, such as FO? Can you explain how that isn't opportunistic to me?
I'm not sure how you could miss that I don't think FO is scum anymore.
The main purpose of my vote is to get LMNOP posting, anyway. I don't want him dead right now.
Quote from Tom »
Also, you seem to be acknowledging that my vote on LMNOP was considered a deflection. That would mean you knew my vote on LMNOP occurred after the case on me started. However, above you claimed the opposite had happened (which is false). Explain please.
Misremembered? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe look things up before state them in a case?
Anyway, noted. What you did could have very much been intentional.
It most certainly is what you did the whole game - up until you got Daykilled. And no, that was a caricaturization, not ad hom.
No, it wasn't. But this conversation is pointless.
No, that was to discredit your attempt at discrediting me, not to say "FOLLOW ME GUISE!!!1111".
What was my attempt at discrediting you that prompted you to bring up your stats?
"I wouldn't be surprised if Iso were scum or town"
"I disagree whole-heartedly on your strong town read of Iso"
How do these two statements not contradict?
There is absolutely no contradiction there. I disagree that you are "exhibit[ing your] usual townie brazenness" as Wessel put it because I don't agree with the assessment that it paints you as strongly Town. That is in no way contradictory to the statement I made that I currently read you almost right down the middle.
So strongly disagreeing with a strong town read = "I can't tell if he's town or scum"?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
"I wouldn't be surprised if Iso were scum or town"
"I disagree whole-heartedly on your strong town read of Iso"
How do these two statements not contradict?
There is absolutely no contradiction there. I disagree that you are "exhibit[ing your] usual townie brazenness" as Wessel put it because I don't agree with the assessment that it paints you as strongly Town. That is in no way contradictory to the statement I made that I currently read you almost right down the middle.
So strongly disagreeing with a strong town read = "I can't tell if he's town or scum"?
That's obviously not correct, but that's also obviously NOT what I said. To hold the view that someone is "Not Strongly Town" and "Neutral" at the same time is perfectly logical. How is this a hard concept for you to grasp???
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
With all of that said, Ireally, really think you should re-read the entire thread with unbiased eyes because I think 99% of what you are talking about it a complete misunderstanding. I have been taking that to mean that you are intentionally mischaracteizing what I've been trying to tell you. I'll take part of the blame for that because I don't always explain myself 100% of the time and I expect people to see things that I think are obvious when apprently they are not...
I will do a reread, using some of the explanations that you've given (for instance, I can accept the tl:dr thing, which is mostly used in reference to not reading an entire wall post from my experience). I agree that we've probably been misunderstanding eachother on a number of points, which may or may not change my opinion of you. I will say this: Having not cross checked much of what you said, this was easily your best post (to me) thus far.
But you obviously weren't paying attention or you would know that someone was focusing on LMNOP. So how would you know?
I was paying attention, I just didn't notice that, as it was many posts and even a page behind everything else that was going on.
How convenient!
Quote from Tom »
Have you been reading my posts? You are building the case on yourself for me. As for why I think you're scum, what first didn't sit right with me was when you voted me, painted what I was doing in a scummy light, and then completely backed off on to FO without any reasoning offered whatsoever. The rest was all downhill from there.
Thank you for finally saying this. Would have wasted much less time if you had done this to begin with.
Are you serious?
This is how I scumhunt.
You know this.
Quote from Tom »
Now, how was I painting you in scummy light?
Your early attack on me. I can see no conceivable reason for you to attempt to pressure me, cast my posts in a negative standing, and vote me if you weren't attempting to paint me in a scummy light.
Quote from Tom »
I think it was pretty clear at the time FO's posts weren't so great, so I'm not sure why I had to go into that in detail when I voted.
Because then you can't be held accountable for your vote. This is why voting without reasoning is generally a scummy thing, though it's something that can be overlooked if an explanation follows shortly thereafter. Not only did you not explain why you voted him, your explanation for unvoting him was just as nondescript.
Quote from Tom »
You say "it was all downhill from there." Please bring up some specific things "from there" that you think I'm scum for.
HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY POSTS?!?
Quote from Tom »
"He hasn't posted much content."
So you're gunning for someone who obviously doesn't know how to play the game instead of someone who has posted far more content and is obviously scummy, such as FO? Can you explain how that isn't opportunistic to me?
I'm not sure how you could miss that I don't think FO is scum anymore.
That was my point. How can you reasonably have no one you think is scum at this juncture in the game?
Quote from Tom »
The main purpose of my vote is to get LMNOP posting, anyway. I don't want him dead right now.
...:facepalm:
Here, let's try this:
Tom, who do you think is scum and why? Give detailed reasoning for each scumspect.
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
Also, you seem to be acknowledging that my vote on LMNOP was considered a deflection. That would mean you knew my vote on LMNOP occurred after the case on me started. However, above you claimed the opposite had happened (which is false). Explain please.
Misremembered? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe look things up before state them in a case?
Anyway, noted. What you did could have very much been intentional.
Not hardly. I'm bad with chronology in Mafia games and I'm prone to mix up who said what and when - go see Mean Girls as an example of this, where Bolly caught Eron in a slip and I could have sworn later on in the game that it was me who had done so.
Quote from Tom »
No, that was to discredit your attempt at discrediting me, not to say "FOLLOW ME GUISE!!!1111".
What was my attempt at discrediting you that prompted you to bring up your stats?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Have you been reading my posts? You are building the case on yourself for me. As for why I think you're scum, what first didn't sit right with me was when you voted me, painted what I was doing in a scummy light, and then completely backed off on to FO without any reasoning offered whatsoever. The rest was all downhill from there.
Thank you for finally saying this. Would have wasted much less time if you had done this to begin with.
Are you serious?
This is how I scumhunt.
You know this.
Apparently I do not.
Quote from Tom »
Now, how was I painting you in scummy light?
Your early attack on me. I can see no conceivable reason for you to attempt to pressure me, cast my posts in a negative standing, and vote me if you weren't attempting to paint me in a scummy light.
Examples? I wasn't trying to pressure you, and the only thing I see that looks like casting your posts in a negative standing was when I brought up the suspicion of your over-defensiveness. I don't see how bringing that up is indicative of me being scum.
I already said why I was voting you. First was for RVS. Second was because you gave a weak answer and I wanted a better one. When you did give a better one, I didn't unvote immediately because your reactions were interesting.
Quote from Tom »
I think it was pretty clear at the time FO's posts weren't so great, so I'm not sure why I had to go into that in detail when I voted.
Because then you can't be held accountable for your vote. This is why voting without reasoning is generally a scummy thing, though it's something that can be overlooked if an explanation follows shortly thereafter. Not only did you not explain why you voted him, your explanation for unvoting him was just as nondescript.
Ok, well I know that now.
Quote from Tom »
You say "it was all downhill from there." Please bring up some specific things "from there" that you think I'm scum for.
HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY POSTS?!?
Yup. And up until you presented why you thought I was scum in my last post all I've seen was you mudslinging BS at me. So, please create a to-the-point list of specific things I've done that make me scum in your opinion (since we started going back and forth).
Quote from Tom »
"He hasn't posted much content."
So you're gunning for someone who obviously doesn't know how to play the game instead of someone who has posted far more content and is obviously scummy, such as FO? Can you explain how that isn't opportunistic to me?
I'm not sure how you could miss that I don't think FO is scum anymore.
That was my point. How can you reasonably have no one you think is scum at this juncture in the game?
I just don't. The only scummy things I've seen this game have been from players who aren't really playing, and so it is hard to have a solid read on them. I also haven't liked some of what you've said, but I've liked some of it too so I just cannot call you town or scum at this point.
Not much has even happened this game. There has been my long interactions with you, which doesn't help me get many reads, and then there has been misting vs FO, both of which I believe to be town (though I feel stronger about misting).
Quote from Tom »
The main purpose of my vote is to get LMNOP posting, anyway. I don't want him dead right now.
...:facepalm:
Here, let's try this:
Tom, who do you think is scum and why? Give detailed reasoning for each scumspect.
See above.
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
Also, you seem to be acknowledging that my vote on LMNOP was considered a deflection. That would mean you knew my vote on LMNOP occurred after the case on me started. However, above you claimed the opposite had happened (which is false). Explain please.
Misremembered? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe look things up before state them in a case?
Anyway, noted. What you did could have very much been intentional.
Not hardly. I'm bad with chronology in Mafia games and I'm prone to mix up who said what and when - go see Mean Girls as an example of this, where Bolly caught Eron in a slip and I could have sworn later on in the game that it was me who had done so.
Ok. That doesn't mean what you did couldn't have been intentional.
Quote from Tom »
No, that was to discredit your attempt at discrediting me, not to say "FOLLOW ME GUISE!!!1111".
What was my attempt at discrediting you that prompted you to bring up your stats?
unvote
Tom is not talking in the weak manner that had me convinced anymore. I have a hard time seeing him as scum since his last few posts.
This game is getting too one-sided. We really need more input. This all feels like town attacking town because no one else responds.
Examples? I wasn't trying to pressure you, and the only thing I see that looks like casting your posts in a negative standing was when I brought up the suspicion of your over-defensiveness. I don't see how bringing that up is indicative of me being scum.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "EXAMPLES"? HOW MANY OF YOUR POSTS AM I GOING TO HAVE TO QUOTE BEFORE YOU QUIT PLAYING DUMB?
I don't see the point of a mass claim rights now. What sort of discussion are you hoping to gain by it, Iso?
Any, given that at the time, no one was doing anything worth mention. However, I think we're starting to get somewhere.
Unvote, Vote Misting
This stood out to me when I read it.
"given that at the time, no one was doing anything worth mention." This feels really out of place. We were in RVS, a point in the game where people almost never do anything worth mentioning, but this reads like Iso was expecting the opposite.
Clearly it shows that Iso was trying to rush RVS to a closing point, and I didn't know what to think about that. I've never seen RVS as a bad thing. That's the reasoning behind the questions I asked him about RVS; I was trying to understand his motives and I was also seeing if I could catch him in a contradiction.
His answers were satisfying, but what I don't like is his being overly defensive (125, 127).
All of this reads to me like you think I'm scum and that you're trying to make other people believe that - except, when my wagon didn't take off, you moved your vote elsewhere.
Quote from Tom »
I already said why I was voting you. First was for RVS. Second was because you gave a weak answer and I wanted a better one. When you did give a better one, I didn't unvote immediately because your reactions were interesting.
So you were just "observing out loud"?
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
You say "it was all downhill from there." Please bring up some specific things "from there" that you think I'm scum for.
HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY POSTS?!?
Yup. And up until you presented why you thought I was scum in my last post all I've seen was you mudslinging BS at me. So, please create a to-the-point list of specific things I've done that make me scum in your opinion (since we started going back and forth).
I absolutely hate repeating myself and you've already made me do it so much. Read. My. Posts.
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
"He hasn't posted much content."
So you're gunning for someone who obviously doesn't know how to play the game instead of someone who has posted far more content and is obviously scummy, such as FO? Can you explain how that isn't opportunistic to me?
I'm not sure how you could miss that I don't think FO is scum anymore.
That was my point. How can you reasonably have no one you think is scum at this juncture in the game?
I just don't. The only scummy things I've seen this game have been from players who aren't really playing, and so it is hard to have a solid read on them. I also haven't liked some of what you've said, but I've liked some of it too so I just cannot call you town or scum at this point.
And that's another reason why I think you're scum - because we're over 300 posts in the game, long past RVS, and you have no scum reads.
Quote from Tom »
Not much has even happened this game. There has been my long interactions with you, which doesn't help me get many reads, and then there has been misting vs FO, both of which I believe to be town (though I feel stronger about misting).
Then why aren't you doing anything else
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
The main purpose of my vote is to get LMNOP posting, anyway. I don't want him dead right now.
...:facepalm:
Here, let's try this:
Tom, who do you think is scum and why? Give detailed reasoning for each scumspect.
See above.
If I had a Daykill, you'd be dead.
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
Also, you seem to be acknowledging that my vote on LMNOP was considered a deflection. That would mean you knew my vote on LMNOP occurred after the case on me started. However, above you claimed the opposite had happened (which is false). Explain please.
Misremembered? Couldn't tell you.
Maybe look things up before state them in a case?
Anyway, noted. What you did could have very much been intentional.
Not hardly. I'm bad with chronology in Mafia games and I'm prone to mix up who said what and when - go see Mean Girls as an example of this, where Bolly caught Eron in a slip and I could have sworn later on in the game that it was me who had done so.
Ok. That doesn't mean what you did couldn't have been intentional.
Well, sure, if I were scum, I absolutely could have done that intentionally if I didn't think you would notice. But this can only devolve into "yes it was" "no it wasn't", it's a point that we're both going to have to concede.
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
No, that was to discredit your attempt at discrediting me, not to say "FOLLOW ME GUISE!!!1111".
What was my attempt at discrediting you that prompted you to bring up your stats?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Examples? I wasn't trying to pressure you, and the only thing I see that looks like casting your posts in a negative standing was when I brought up the suspicion of your over-defensiveness. I don't see how bringing that up is indicative of me being scum.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "EXAMPLES"? HOW MANY OF YOUR POSTS AM I GOING TO HAVE TO QUOTE BEFORE YOU QUIT PLAYING DUMB?
I don't see the point of a mass claim rights now. What sort of discussion are you hoping to gain by it, Iso?
Any, given that at the time, no one was doing anything worth mention. However, I think we're starting to get somewhere.
Unvote, Vote Misting
This stood out to me when I read it.
"given that at the time, no one was doing anything worth mention." This feels really out of place. We were in RVS, a point in the game where people almost never do anything worth mentioning, but this reads like Iso was expecting the opposite.
Clearly it shows that Iso was trying to rush RVS to a closing point, and I didn't know what to think about that. I've never seen RVS as a bad thing. That's the reasoning behind the questions I asked him about RVS; I was trying to understand his motives and I was also seeing if I could catch him in a contradiction.
His answers were satisfying, but what I don't like is his being overly defensive (125, 127).
All of this reads to me like you think I'm scum and that you're trying to make other people believe that - except, when my wagon didn't take off, you moved your vote elsewhere.
Quote 1 translates into: I'm now voting you because I want a better answer.
Quote 2 translates into: This is why your answer was weak (because you had asked).
Quote 3 translates into: This quote stood out to me because it seemed like Iso was rushing RVS, which I didn't know what to think about. However his answers were good.
---
How is any of that me thinking you are scum? The only part that reads as me having any suspicion of you is the last sentence of the third quote, but I wouldn't call my suspension scummy as you really were being over-defensive. I wasn't ready to declare you as scum for that, though.
Quote from Tom »
I already said why I was voting you. First was for RVS. Second was because you gave a weak answer and I wanted a better one. When you did give a better one, I didn't unvote immediately because your reactions were interesting.
So you were just "observing out loud"?
I don't know what you are asking or how to answer it.
Quote from Tom »
Quote from Tom »
You say "it was all downhill from there." Please bring up some specific things "from there" that you think I'm scum for.
HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY POSTS?!?
Yup. And up until you presented why you thought I was scum in my last post all I've seen was you mudslinging BS at me. So, please create a to-the-point list of specific things I've done that make me scum in your opinion (since we started going back and forth).
I absolutely hate repeating myself and you've already made me do it so much. Read. My. Posts.
I've read your posts because I've responded to all of them.
If you aren't going to extract the specific things, then... well, good luck with your case on me.
And that's another reason why I think you're scum - because we're over 300 posts in the game, long past RVS, and you have no scum reads.
Ok.
Quote from Tom »
Not much has even happened this game. There has been my long interactions with you, which doesn't help me get many reads, and then there has been misting vs FO, both of which I believe to be town (though I feel stronger about misting).
Then why aren't you doing anything else
You are on my ass constantly and I have no way of making the other half of the players in this game post content.
Well, sure, if I were scum, I absolutely could have done that intentionally if I didn't think you would notice. But this can only devolve into "yes it was" "no it wasn't", it's a point that we're both going to have to concede.
Yes, I know. You already devolved it into that. I was originally just pointing out the possibility.
Then, in the unlikely scenario that you are town, please do something useful.
I'll do my best once the other half of players in this game actually do some stuff.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Most of your defense has been 'okay', 'then I guess we disagree', 'there is no case on me', and 'you're wrong'. Can you understand why I'm not compelled?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Anyone who has posted LESS that the Mod is lurking and is hurting the game. This is specifically pointed at LMNOP, Infectious Baloth, and Lord McDonalds, and to a lesser extent Eron. I get that Infectious Baloth is a replacement so he gets a bit of a pass, but there should be no reason why Iso has 111 posts and we have 3 players with less than 10...
Most of your defense has been 'okay', 'then I guess we disagree', 'there is no case on me', and 'you're wrong'. Can you understand why I'm not compelled?
No
I've responded to the accusations of me that came from Wessel, and without using the phrases you listed. Sure, I've used them in other places, but not in response to the actual accusations laid out by him.
In the minimal amount of actual accusations you've aimed at me, I also have shown why you were wrong without using those phrases (like about me "painting you in scummy light"). The only exception I can think of is when you accused me of not having scum reads. I don't know how you'd expect me to defend against that without simply saying "ok", as the fact of the matter is that I really do not have any scum reads. Not sure how that makes me scum, but if you want to try to get me lynched for it, go ahead and good luck with it.
You toss around the phrase "your (Tom's) defense" as if everything I've been saying is my defense from some unknown accusation. No. The only laid out points against me are from Wessel and one or two small things from you. I've already shown why those points are wrong, except for the point that I do not have scum reads at this time.
I've done a reread, and responding to FO will take more time than I have right now. I'll do it tommorow evening. I've also read Wessel/Iso vs. Tom, and I see what Tom has been saying. If more points than what Tom have answered to have been made, then I missed them too. Iso, here's my question for you: You said that the first thing that got you about Tom was his vote on you, which he then later removed. If that was bad in your eyes, if that is (outside of this argument about answering questions and Wessel's points to which he still has not responded to Tom's rebuttal) the main reason you are voting him, why, immediatly after he explained his reasons for voting you, did you post this and then drop the subject until it was brought up again?
Who has been doing pro-town activity and scumhunting? Nothing much has happened this game from what I can tell. So far I saw Iso's RVS comment as strange and questioned him on it, and right now there are a couple players giving me scum vibes, but outside of that I have not seen much worth commenting on. That said, I'll try to make time to reread the game in the next couple days to see if I've missed something.
While you're statement about scumhunting appears to be true at first blush, it really isn't. I think several players have made attempts at scum hunting with the limited content in the game. That fact that you had to make this statement demonstrates this fact.
I also dislike the fact that you have had "a couple players giving you scum vibes." This feels like an attempt to redirect attention.
Bull****. In Star Trek: Myriad Universes II Mafia AND Star Trek: Voyager Mafia AND Starcraft Mafia, I did heavy research on falseclaims and was ultimately successful in weaving convincing ones. I even linked the Star Trek: Voyager wiki in the game, IIRC.
@Tom: Why would a scum not look up the flavor of the game? Or are you reffering to somthing else in your last post?
He wasn't just looking up the flavor of them game, he was looking up to see whether the scum could have roles that were clearly evil or not. I'd think he'd already know that if he were scum.
I don't like this at all, and it might even be a slip. Based on what a few people have said early in the game, everyone wants to kill the headmaster. If that's true, why would he know who was clearly evil as scum if everyone wants the same thing?
Defense from... what exactly? Bandwagoning is viewed as a bad thing because scum like to slide their votes onto people who are in danger of getting lynched. That's not even close to what is happening here. There is only 1 other person on LMNOP.
From my experience, scum will slide their vote in anywhere, not just on someone who is in danger of being lynched. And if that person is town, it's almost commonplace for one of the first few to be scum. Scum also don't like to start wagons, so...
@Tom - Can you direct me back to where you discuss the importance of the "when RVS ended" questioning?
He wasn't just looking up the flavor of them game, he was looking up to see whether the scum could have roles that were clearly evil or not. I'd think he'd already know that if he were scum.
Because scum couldn't make a show of doing that?
All townslips or towntells could be made by clever scum. That doesn't make them illegitimate.
I "townslip" all the time as scum. That certainly does make it illegitimate.
So what you are saying is that townslips don't work? The one Seppel found about me in KOTH was worthless?
Are you trying to imply that townslips work 100% of the time? It's easy to fake as scum. In fact, the 2 times I remember playing as scum, I intentionally tried to do it both times.
False. Wessel made his case before my vote on LMNOP, and both yourself and IB were voting for me prior to my vote as well.
And I knew that LMNOP wasn't in any danger because it was plain to see that nobody was really focusing on him (they were on me). I didn't even think anyone was voting him, but I was apparently incorrect.
I like this part of Tom's post. To me, it's reading as though he was genuinely trying to scumhunt on LMNOP and got bogged down after that.
unvote
Tom is not talking in the weak manner that had me convinced anymore. I have a hard time seeing him as scum since his last few posts.
This game is getting too one-sided. We really need more input. This all feels like town attacking town because no one else responds.
I don't like this unvote. Can you provide examples of where you feel Tom was providing weak reasoning before?
That's all for now - I don't know that I've changed my reads that much based on the back and forth. I have
Lord_McDonalds: No read
AtheistGod: No read
EtR: Town
infectiousbaloth: Town
Misting: Town
pikachugundam: No read
Wessel: Null/Leaning Town
Tom: Null/Leaning Scum
Ellemenno P: Scum
Forgotten One: Leaning Scum
Rhand: Leaning town until the unvote mentioned above
Iso: Town
Who has been doing pro-town activity and scumhunting? Nothing much has happened this game from what I can tell. So far I saw Iso's RVS comment as strange and questioned him on it, and right now there are a couple players giving me scum vibes, but outside of that I have not seen much worth commenting on. That said, I'll try to make time to reread the game in the next couple days to see if I've missed something.
While you're statement about scumhunting appears to be true at first blush, it really isn't. I think several players have made attempts at scum hunting with the limited content in the game. That fact that you had to make this statement demonstrates this fact.
I have made attempts too. But in the scheme of things my statement IS true, not much has happened this game including not much scumhunting.
Why LMNOP over any other low content player with a drive by post?
As I've already explained, LMNOP just stops by to express suspicions already expressed by several people, and doesn't even care to explain why. That's more scummy than any other "drive by post" made this game.
@Tom: Why would a scum not look up the flavor of the game? Or are you reffering to somthing else in your last post?
He wasn't just looking up the flavor of them game, he was looking up to see whether the scum could have roles that were clearly evil or not. I'd think he'd already know that if he were scum.
I don't like this at all, and it might even be a slip. Based on what a few people have said early in the game, everyone wants to kill the headmaster. If that's true, why would he know who was clearly evil as scum if everyone wants the same thing?
I don't understand what you are saying. I don't know the "Unseen University" flavor, but just because everyone wants to kill someone doesn't mean that there aren't evil roles. To translate into Harry Potter terms, which seems somewhat related, Malfoy and Potter could have a similar goal (say, get an "A" in a class) but one of the two is clearly a more evil role. I don't know whether there are evil roles or not but I think it is a possibility.
Defense from... what exactly? Bandwagoning is viewed as a bad thing because scum like to slide their votes onto people who are in danger of getting lynched. That's not even close to what is happening here. There is only 1 other person on LMNOP.
From my experience, scum will slide their vote in anywhere, not just on someone who is in danger of being lynched. And if that person is town, it's almost commonplace for one of the first few to be scum. Scum also don't like to start wagons, so...
@Tom - Can you direct me back to where you discuss the importance of the "when RVS ended" questioning?
He wasn't just looking up the flavor of them game, he was looking up to see whether the scum could have roles that were clearly evil or not. I'd think he'd already know that if he were scum.
Because scum couldn't make a show of doing that?
All townslips or towntells could be made by clever scum. That doesn't make them illegitimate.
I "townslip" all the time as scum. That certainly does make it illegitimate.
So what you are saying is that townslips don't work? The one Seppel found about me in KOTH was worthless?
Are you trying to imply that townslips work 100% of the time? It's easy to fake as scum. In fact, the 2 times I remember playing as scum, I intentionally tried to do it both times.
No I am not trying to imply that. But I don't think they work 0% of the time either. Regardless, what I consider to be a townslip from FO, along side his posts that I thought were good, was enough to get me to unvote him, whether it was a legit townslip or not (and I believe it was).
@Tom: Y'know what? You're obviously not understanding. I'm going to stop engaging you now because every response you give me feels condescending and makes me want to put my face through a wall.
I've done a reread, and responding to FO will take more time than I have right now. I'll do it tommorow evening. I've also read Wessel/Iso vs. Tom, and I see what Tom has been saying. If more points than what Tom have answered to have been made, then I missed them too. Iso, here's my question for you: You said that the first thing that got you about Tom was his vote on you, which he then later removed. If that was bad in your eyes, if that is (outside of this argument about answering questions and Wessel's points to which he still has not responded to Tom's rebuttal) the main reason you are voting him, why, immediatly after he explained his reasons for voting you, did you post this and then drop the subject until it was brought up again?
Because he answered my question. While it was bad, it wasn't bad enough to pursue him over at the time. Now that he's racked up several points on the sliding scale of scum, it's a more pursuable wagon. I also don't remember who I was pursuing at the time, so it's possible that I thought they were scummier than Tom was at the time.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
For Misting vs FO: Misting and FO seem to have some misunderstanding because I don't think they quoted some of the posts they were referring to, so somewhere someone was talking about one thing, while the other was talking about something else. FO's responses didn't feel as good compared to Mistings, but I don't think condescension is a scum tell.
For Iso vs Tom: Tom feels like the usual flailing town. Iso also feels very town, but like FO said, I would not be surprised if Iso flips scum because Iso is just that good?
@Iso: What do you want from me? My only scumspect reads besides FO are LMNOP and Rhand and they're not doing anything!
@Tom: Y'know what? You're obviously not understanding. I'm going to stop engaging you now because every response you give me feels condescending and makes me want to put my face through a wall.
I feel the exact same about your responses.
So what now? Are you going to leave your vote on me even though I've logically answered the points you made against me (besides that I don't have scum reads, of course)? I mean, I really don't see why you think I'm scum right now
I'd really like some prods to get issued so this game can start getting played, but it seems the mod isn't around.... am I cursed for this to happen in every game I play in?
I just sat and read it for 2 hours. Thanks anyway.
Why the vote?
Because I feel as though you haven't sufficiently answered Iso's line of questioning.
You are also incredibly snarky. I clearly had just read through most of your posts as they were quoted and couldn't come to a conclusion on where you fell with Iso. I then ask you and your answer is still summarized as "I don't know", but you didn't miss a chance to take a cheap shot at me.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Can you provide examples of where you feel Tom was providing weak reasoning before?
I'm not going to use quotes because many of Tom's posts are quotewalls; I'm using the postnumbers instead.
Wessel did a pbp in #280, showing Tom's weak hunting. When I asked him his reasoning for voting FO and unvoting him again, he gave an extremely weak answer. (#289) I again ask for more info, and his next answer (#293) is just as weak.
Another good example is post #311: It seems big with all the nested quotes, but it contains hardly anything.
I unvoted because of #321 and #327.
In #321 he admits to his frustration. His tone is more confident. This can be town that really doesn't understand what he is supposed to defend himself from. And #327 I read as possible town that really doesn't find good scumleads to pursue.
So... why don't we do a mass name claim or something? That was proposed earlier and I didn't hear much opposition to it.
He never reacted on the RVS mass claim and now all of a sudden he brings it up again. I don't know wether it's meant as diverting or fishing or both, but it's scummy as hell.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm not sure who I want to vote for... And there isn't much of a case on each that hasn't already been stated. If I was not lazy, I could go dig them up for you?
I just sat and read it for 2 hours. Thanks anyway.
Why the vote?
Because I feel as though you haven't sufficiently answered Iso's line of questioning.
You are also incredibly snarky. I clearly had just read through most of your posts as they were quoted and couldn't come to a conclusion on where you fell with Iso. I then ask you and your answer is still summarized as "I don't know", but you didn't miss a chance to take a cheap shot at me.
Could you please point me to what questions asked by Iso that I have not sufficiently answered?
As for my response to your question, I apologize for being snarky, I'm just really frustrated with this game right now. I've also clearly stated like twice that I have no clear read on Iso at this time.
So... why don't we do a mass name claim or something? That was proposed earlier and I didn't hear much opposition to it.
He never reacted on the RVS mass claim and now all of a sudden he brings it up again. I don't know wether it's meant as diverting or fishing or both, but it's scummy as hell.
vote: Tom
Why is it scummy? You bring up the possibility of fishing; why then did you not bring that up when the mass name claim was originally proposed?
You also bring up diverting, but honestly, how am I supposed to show that I'm town without trying to take action and get this game going?
I'm at L-3 now, but counting your somewhat-vote I'd be at L-2, so I'm fine with this (although the fact that there are that many votes on me without much reasoning is rather bothersome...)
I'll redo the wording and such so as not to get modkilled:
I am the Dean of Pentacles, AKA "Two Chairs" or simply "The Dean". I'm Vanilla Town, and I really like to eat. I also have an "ability" where I can sneak to the pantry once a night for a snack, but that is a joke because it apparently has no effect on the game.
Near the beginning of the game I made food jokes, with this in mind. I also used the phrase "oh the flavor" or something with a secret second meaning.
Anyway, Wessel, I responded to your case on me. You have continued to not respond back, thus also preventing Iso from talking about it. As your case, to my knowledge, contains the majority of the points against me, I'd like you to respond to my response.
I really think lynching Tom is a bad idea. He's the one person in this game I feel most strongly about. Everything he's done has felt very townie to me. I've been sitting back to see how this wagon would unfold, but I don't want to risk the mislynch.
In fact, this wagon has pushed Tom from heavily leaning town to confirmed town for me.
The arguments against FO were dropped before he was truly cleared in my mind, I have him as still leaning scum.
PG has been a nagging feeling at me all game. Ever since this post, almost every post from him has felt off. I can't pinpoint anything, but the way he dances around when he posts has me leaning scum.
We are talking about the same post. Your Gambit Post is Post 50, and my immediate response was post 52.
I'll start with this whole argument. Now, FO has been contending that my statement that he made no response to this post before making this post is false and a misrepresentation. Technically, he did make this post immediatly afterwards, to which we had a small terminology debate at the time. However, even as he says later, his "response" to this is sarcastic, and not at all what I meant by a response. I was reffering to a post in which someone makes a non-joking reamrk or opinion or asks a question or something non-RVS. I no more consider that a post worth considering as a response than this one by Rhand. This combined with my interpretation of the wording "So what's the story with this post" is what made me originally think that post was opportunistic and aggressive. I have since then accepted your explanation, that you wanted to get it moving, even though that explanation has a flaw with it.
Iso didn't do that. He questioned why you were attacking him for something that he provably does so often (post a ton).
I would call that taking the bait. He broke RVS, he voted me, the entire rest of the game evolved from that point. Sure, it wasn't technically the same as what happened in Basic #66 if that's your interpretation of his actions, but it still accomplished the goal: ending RVS and getting reactions.
Calling you out on your BS is different than taking the bait. Since it was him you were attacking, I would totally expect him to respond especially when what you said about him was demonstrably false. That's a completely Townie response to what you did. Trying to paint it otherwise is a mischaracterization of Iso's posts.
How have I tried to paint Iso in any way? Actually, I think I see where this misunderstanding is: "Taking the bait" is not reffering to catching scum, merely elliciting a non-RVS reaction. I have never said that Iso is scum for his action, or anything even remotly close to that.
If it gets the game moving, which it did, then it acomplished my goal.
If you are a Townie, then acting scummy in an attempt to get the game moving is the absolutely wrong way to do it. It's a total WIFOM sandwhich to think otherwise.
And your gambit was actually grinding the game to a halt. We only had like 6 active posters, and almost all of them were waiting on you to repspond. If anything, it was my post telling you to get on with it that actuall ygot the game moving again.
I'm not certain what you are trying to prove here. IT WORKED. People left RVS.Furthermore, I did it in such a way as to try and prevent as much as the WIFOM as possible. As anyone who was in KoTH will tell you, people didn't like Stardust's claim that it was all a gambit because it was his word against his previous word. In the same way people breadcrum to support a later claim, I breadcrumbed the intentional nature of it. Saying that it ground the game to a halt is laughable. Nothing was happening before it, and my post started it.
Furthermore, you act as if I was intentionally avoiding responding to it once it became repetative, and we were waiting for days for me to post. Yes, I did not respond to Iso and reveal right away. Yes, I waited for more people to get in on it. It was 24 hours from my previous post to the reveal. During that time, Wessel questioned me, Iso questioned Wessel, you questioned me (saying everything was stalled), then Tom questioned and voted Iso, then I posted. I did not have an opportunity to post the reveal until then, and even after you said things were ground to a halt, Tom still brought up a new topic which is still being discussed. So, no, the game was not stalled in any meaningful way, and saying that my gambit slowed down the game forgets that there was no game before my gambit. However, I don't hold these timing arguments against you because I know most people don't check timestamps regullarly. Just drop this line.
It was a statement of fact to help calrify to you where I'm coming from. In most Mafia circles I used to run in, you would have a lot more people reacting to it like I am. I understand that you know nothing about me or what I know about Mafia, so I was trying to give you a bit of context.
On thta note, trying to turn that into me "cowing the town" is exactly what I mean when I say that you are overexagerating or mischaracterizing things I've said in an attempt to make me look scummy.
You are correct in that I am not aware of who you used to play with, and perhaps they would have reacted like you do. When I read your original statement, my thought was equating it with, "everyone is doing it, so should you". A peer pressure argument. However, you have (now) explained what you meant by it, and I am perfectly happy to accept that and let the point drop. The thing I want you to understand about me then, is that if I don't see the town motivation, but do see the scum one, then I will call it out. By doing so I challenge you to provide the town explanation or refute the scum one. With your most recent comment, you have done so.
So anybody who is not asking questions is scum? Not only is this total WIFOM, its actually false. And again, you were trying to twist what I said into something that it isn't. THAT is scummy.
In this post you said you were completly, 100% sure I was scum. You said you knew what you needed to know. That is not scum hunting. You build cases, you ask questions, which you had not done. You just said "everything he has said is wrong" without backing it up. You said it's "demonstrably false" without demonstrating. That is what I take issue with, because I know that town make mistakes, and that is why you never stop asking them questions until they are unable to respond, either by being caught firmly, and then lynched, or by being lynched because enough people find their defense contrived or inadequate. It's not scumhunting to say, "I know they are scum, and that's that."
That is NOT why I voted for you. I didn't really care about your gambit, but I absolutely care about what you are attempting to pass off as facts surrounding the responses to it. Townies can run gambits, but only scum do so and blow things out of proportion to the response. That is why I am voting for you.
You never mentioned mischaracterization at the time of your vote. Here. I'm not saying that's why you are voting me now, even as I have changed from my original reason. Your comment right before the vote dealt with the gambit itself, correct? In fact, that particular statement makes little sense to me. "What did you expect people to do, just ignore you?". I thought you already knew what I was trying to do.
No you do not. But he's been barning Iso all game, so parroting his reason to vote for me to place a 4th vote 9out of 7 o lynch) comes accross as opportunistic to me. It was also me trying to point out what an actual opportunistic vote looks like.
I'll probably get around to Wessel and everyone else on another post. It didn't really strike me as off at the time, but I will have to look into it more.
Lol... I get it now. tl;dr ws referring to MY post (Post 144), as in to say "if my above five sentences were too long and you didn't read them, let me sum up by saying that you are not as clever as you think you are...".
Anyway, I'm still not sure how my posts don't make sense from your point of view. Your little gambit didn't work at all. the only way you can maintain that "it worked" is by doing exactly what you are doing; exaggeratting and mischaracterizing the responses.
Okay, as I said earlier, terminology confusion. Fine. I think we have another misunderstanding here. In your own words, what do you think the intent of my gambit was? What was it's goal, what would have made it "work"?
That post was a direct response to you asking how I though your initial gambit post was being sarcastic. I "get" that you didn't actually mean it... hence me saying that you HAD to have been saying it sarcastically and hence my sarcastic response even before your gambit reveal. I was pointing out the obvious; that your gambit post was you either obviously joking or you pretending to be a total Mafia noob.
The arguments against FO were dropped before he was truly cleared in my mind, I have him as still leaning scum.
PG has been a nagging feeling at me all game. Ever since this post, almost every post from him has felt off. I can't pinpoint anything, but the way he dances around when he posts has me leaning scum.
@LMNOP: You're not suppose to edit posts either...
@Tom: It's RVS. There is no point.
@Iso: What kind of scummy action would you need to be performed to break RVS?
It's prolly the fact that I've been doing not a whole lot... not even flailing a bunch... I want to try and find something scummy from someone (anyone), but there hasn't been a whole lot besides FO vs Misting and Tom vs Iso...
Because your answer looks like you went searching for a reason to unvote FO after I asked you a second time and found nothing better than a wiki page.
Your only posts were:
I would like to see some reasoning for your vote.
There is absolutely no contradiction there. I disagree that you are "exhibit[ing your] usual townie brazenness" as Wessel put it because I don't agree with the assessment that it paints you as strongly Town. That is in no way contradictory to the statement I made that I currently read you almost right down the middle.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
"Sad little interpretation" was definitely a negative way of stating it, but I'm rather frustrated at what is going on right now - a big waste of time. I apologize if I offended you..
I don't see how "relieve yourself" is ad hom, when it is another word for "piss", which is exactly what Iso said he was going to do.
I'm surprised that you want to lynch me just because I may have been rude, which I apologize for.
Can you respond to my response on your case of me? As of right now I still don't understand the wagon on me, and apparently Iso doesn't want to say anything until you do.
I was paying attention, I just didn't notice that, as it was many posts and even a page behind everything else that was going on.
DEFENSE FROM WHAT?????
I've already responded to what Wessel had to say about me, which is the only thing I can find that somewhat resembles a case on me.
No. You've said "see what Wessel posted" and not much outside of that. And I've already responded to what Wessel posted, but you are refusing to comment on that until Wessel does.
Because half of what he said wasn't a case, and the other half I've already responded to by showing why he was incorrect. There currently isn't anything against me from Wessel. And certainly nothing from you.
Thank you for finally saying this. Would have wasted much less time if you had done this to begin with.
Now, how was I painting you in scummy light?
I think it was pretty clear at the time FO's posts weren't so great, so I'm not sure why I had to go into that in detail when I voted.
You say "it was all downhill from there." Please bring up some specific things "from there" that you think I'm scum for.
I'm not sure how you could miss that I don't think FO is scum anymore.
The main purpose of my vote is to get LMNOP posting, anyway. I don't want him dead right now.
Maybe look things up before state them in a case?
Anyway, noted. What you did could have very much been intentional.
No, it wasn't. But this conversation is pointless.
What was my attempt at discrediting you that prompted you to bring up your stats?
So strongly disagreeing with a strong town read = "I can't tell if he's town or scum"?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That's obviously not correct, but that's also obviously NOT what I said. To hold the view that someone is "Not Strongly Town" and "Neutral" at the same time is perfectly logical. How is this a hard concept for you to grasp???
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
@Tom: I've got to head to work in a minute, I didn't see you responded to me until now. I'll get to your response tomorrow when I'm at my computer.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I will do a reread, using some of the explanations that you've given (for instance, I can accept the tl:dr thing, which is mostly used in reference to not reading an entire wall post from my experience). I agree that we've probably been misunderstanding eachother on a number of points, which may or may not change my opinion of you. I will say this: Having not cross checked much of what you said, this was easily your best post (to me) thus far.
How convenient!
Are you serious?
This is how I scumhunt.
You know this.
Your early attack on me. I can see no conceivable reason for you to attempt to pressure me, cast my posts in a negative standing, and vote me if you weren't attempting to paint me in a scummy light.
Because then you can't be held accountable for your vote. This is why voting without reasoning is generally a scummy thing, though it's something that can be overlooked if an explanation follows shortly thereafter. Not only did you not explain why you voted him, your explanation for unvoting him was just as nondescript.
HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY POSTS?!?
That was my point. How can you reasonably have no one you think is scum at this juncture in the game?
...:facepalm:
Here, let's try this:
Tom, who do you think is scum and why? Give detailed reasoning for each scumspect.
Not hardly. I'm bad with chronology in Mafia games and I'm prone to mix up who said what and when - go see Mean Girls as an example of this, where Bolly caught Eron in a slip and I could have sworn later on in the game that it was me who had done so.
Here's one!
Also, I didn't bring up my stats - you misinterpreted what I meant by "my results", though I suppose that's semantics at this point.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Apparently I do not.
Examples? I wasn't trying to pressure you, and the only thing I see that looks like casting your posts in a negative standing was when I brought up the suspicion of your over-defensiveness. I don't see how bringing that up is indicative of me being scum.
I already said why I was voting you. First was for RVS. Second was because you gave a weak answer and I wanted a better one. When you did give a better one, I didn't unvote immediately because your reactions were interesting.
Ok, well I know that now.
Yup. And up until you presented why you thought I was scum in my last post all I've seen was you mudslinging BS at me. So, please create a to-the-point list of specific things I've done that make me scum in your opinion (since we started going back and forth).
I just don't. The only scummy things I've seen this game have been from players who aren't really playing, and so it is hard to have a solid read on them. I also haven't liked some of what you've said, but I've liked some of it too so I just cannot call you town or scum at this point.
Not much has even happened this game. There has been my long interactions with you, which doesn't help me get many reads, and then there has been misting vs FO, both of which I believe to be town (though I feel stronger about misting).
See above.
Ok. That doesn't mean what you did couldn't have been intentional.
Alright then this conversation is pointless too.
Tom is not talking in the weak manner that had me convinced anymore. I have a hard time seeing him as scum since his last few posts.
This game is getting too one-sided. We really need more input. This all feels like town attacking town because no one else responds.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN "EXAMPLES"? HOW MANY OF YOUR POSTS AM I GOING TO HAVE TO QUOTE BEFORE YOU QUIT PLAYING DUMB?
All of this reads to me like you think I'm scum and that you're trying to make other people believe that - except, when my wagon didn't take off, you moved your vote elsewhere.
So you were just "observing out loud"?
I absolutely hate repeating myself and you've already made me do it so much. Read. My. Posts.
And that's another reason why I think you're scum - because we're over 300 posts in the game, long past RVS, and you have no scum reads.
Then why aren't you doing anything else
If I had a Daykill, you'd be dead.
Well, sure, if I were scum, I absolutely could have done that intentionally if I didn't think you would notice. But this can only devolve into "yes it was" "no it wasn't", it's a point that we're both going to have to concede.
Then, in the unlikely scenario that you are town, please do something useful.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Quote 1 translates into: I'm now voting you because I want a better answer.
Quote 2 translates into: This is why your answer was weak (because you had asked).
Quote 3 translates into: This quote stood out to me because it seemed like Iso was rushing RVS, which I didn't know what to think about. However his answers were good.
---
How is any of that me thinking you are scum? The only part that reads as me having any suspicion of you is the last sentence of the third quote, but I wouldn't call my suspension scummy as you really were being over-defensive. I wasn't ready to declare you as scum for that, though.
I don't know what you are asking or how to answer it.
I've read your posts because I've responded to all of them.
If you aren't going to extract the specific things, then... well, good luck with your case on me.
Ok.
You are on my ass constantly and I have no way of making the other half of the players in this game post content.
Yes, I know. You already devolved it into that. I was originally just pointing out the possibility.
I'll do my best once the other half of players in this game actually do some stuff.
Requesting prods on EtR, LMNOP, and AtheistGod in addition to Lord McDonalds
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{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
No
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Anyone who has posted LESS that the Mod is lurking and is hurting the game. This is specifically pointed at LMNOP, Infectious Baloth, and Lord McDonalds, and to a lesser extent Eron. I get that Infectious Baloth is a replacement so he gets a bit of a pass, but there should be no reason why Iso has 111 posts and we have 3 players with less than 10...
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Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
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Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
No
I've responded to the accusations of me that came from Wessel, and without using the phrases you listed. Sure, I've used them in other places, but not in response to the actual accusations laid out by him.
In the minimal amount of actual accusations you've aimed at me, I also have shown why you were wrong without using those phrases (like about me "painting you in scummy light"). The only exception I can think of is when you accused me of not having scum reads. I don't know how you'd expect me to defend against that without simply saying "ok", as the fact of the matter is that I really do not have any scum reads. Not sure how that makes me scum, but if you want to try to get me lynched for it, go ahead and good luck with it.
You toss around the phrase "your (Tom's) defense" as if everything I've been saying is my defense from some unknown accusation. No. The only laid out points against me are from Wessel and one or two small things from you. I've already shown why those points are wrong, except for the point that I do not have scum reads at this time.
Why PG?
While you're statement about scumhunting appears to be true at first blush, it really isn't. I think several players have made attempts at scum hunting with the limited content in the game. That fact that you had to make this statement demonstrates this fact.
I also dislike the fact that you have had "a couple players giving you scum vibes." This feels like an attempt to redirect attention.
Why LMNOP over any other low content player with a drive by post?
Why not? Especially if scum weren't provided false claims, they would have every reason to look it up.
Well, I see Iso already called that out.
These two chunks are one Iso post, which is giving me good vibes about Iso. These are my sentiments exactly.
I don't like this at all, and it might even be a slip. Based on what a few people have said early in the game, everyone wants to kill the headmaster. If that's true, why would he know who was clearly evil as scum if everyone wants the same thing?
From my experience, scum will slide their vote in anywhere, not just on someone who is in danger of being lynched. And if that person is town, it's almost commonplace for one of the first few to be scum. Scum also don't like to start wagons, so...
@Tom - Can you direct me back to where you discuss the importance of the "when RVS ended" questioning?
Are you trying to imply that townslips work 100% of the time? It's easy to fake as scum. In fact, the 2 times I remember playing as scum, I intentionally tried to do it both times.
I like this part of Tom's post. To me, it's reading as though he was genuinely trying to scumhunt on LMNOP and got bogged down after that.
I don't like this unvote. Can you provide examples of where you feel Tom was providing weak reasoning before?
That's all for now - I don't know that I've changed my reads that much based on the back and forth. I have
Lord_McDonalds: No read
AtheistGod: No read
EtR: Town
infectiousbaloth: Town
Misting: Town
pikachugundam: No read
Wessel: Null/Leaning Town
Tom: Null/Leaning Scum
Ellemenno P: Scum
Forgotten One: Leaning Scum
Rhand: Leaning town until the unvote mentioned above
Iso: Town
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I have made attempts too. But in the scheme of things my statement IS true, not much has happened this game including not much scumhunting.
As I've already explained, LMNOP just stops by to express suspicions already expressed by several people, and doesn't even care to explain why. That's more scummy than any other "drive by post" made this game.
Has already been answered.
I don't understand what you are saying. I don't know the "Unseen University" flavor, but just because everyone wants to kill someone doesn't mean that there aren't evil roles. To translate into Harry Potter terms, which seems somewhat related, Malfoy and Potter could have a similar goal (say, get an "A" in a class) but one of the two is clearly a more evil role. I don't know whether there are evil roles or not but I think it is a possibility.
Sure, though it's not hard to find.
No I am not trying to imply that. But I don't think they work 0% of the time either. Regardless, what I consider to be a townslip from FO, along side his posts that I thought were good, was enough to get me to unvote him, whether it was a legit townslip or not (and I believe it was).
These are your last three posts. You are right when you say you aren't doing anything.
Please give thoughts about Misting vs. FO, Iso vs. Tom, etc?
Can you please read the last 20 posts worth of interactions between us two? I think that will prevent a lot of pointless questions.
I have no read on Iso. I like some stuff he's been saying/doing but I dislike other stuff.
I just sat and read it for 2 hours. Thanks anyway.
Because he answered my question. While it was bad, it wasn't bad enough to pursue him over at the time. Now that he's racked up several points on the sliding scale of scum, it's a more pursuable wagon. I also don't remember who I was pursuing at the time, so it's possible that I thought they were scummier than Tom was at the time.
oh my god do something
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
For Iso vs Tom: Tom feels like the usual flailing town. Iso also feels very town, but like FO said, I would not be surprised if Iso flips scum because Iso is just that good?
@Iso: What do you want from me? My only scumspect reads besides FO are LMNOP and Rhand and they're not doing anything!
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Why the vote?
I feel the exact same about your responses.
So what now? Are you going to leave your vote on me even though I've logically answered the points you made against me (besides that I don't have scum reads, of course)? I mean, I really don't see why you think I'm scum right now
I'd really like some prods to get issued so this game can start getting played, but it seems the mod isn't around.... am I cursed for this to happen in every game I play in?
Because I feel as though you haven't sufficiently answered Iso's line of questioning.
You are also incredibly snarky. I clearly had just read through most of your posts as they were quoted and couldn't come to a conclusion on where you fell with Iso. I then ask you and your answer is still summarized as "I don't know", but you didn't miss a chance to take a cheap shot at me.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm not going to use quotes because many of Tom's posts are quotewalls; I'm using the postnumbers instead.
Wessel did a pbp in #280, showing Tom's weak hunting. When I asked him his reasoning for voting FO and unvoting him again, he gave an extremely weak answer. (#289) I again ask for more info, and his next answer (#293) is just as weak.
Another good example is post #311: It seems big with all the nested quotes, but it contains hardly anything.
I unvoted because of #321 and #327.
In #321 he admits to his frustration. His tone is more confident. This can be town that really doesn't understand what he is supposed to defend himself from. And #327 I read as possible town that really doesn't find good scumleads to pursue.
This I really dislike however:
He never reacted on the RVS mass claim and now all of a sudden he brings it up again. I don't know wether it's meant as diverting or fishing or both, but it's scummy as hell.
vote: Tom
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Vote count:
Forgotten One (1): Misting
Misting (1): Forgotten One
LMNOP (1): Tom
Tom (4): Iso, IB, EtR, Rhand
Not Voting: PikachuGundam, LMNOP, AG, Golden Arches, Wessel
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If you have 3 suspects, why aren't you voting any of them?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Could you please point me to what questions asked by Iso that I have not sufficiently answered?
As for my response to your question, I apologize for being snarky, I'm just really frustrated with this game right now. I've also clearly stated like twice that I have no clear read on Iso at this time.
Why is it scummy? You bring up the possibility of fishing; why then did you not bring that up when the mass name claim was originally proposed?
You also bring up diverting, but honestly, how am I supposed to show that I'm town without trying to take action and get this game going?
I'm at L-3 now, but counting your somewhat-vote I'd be at L-2, so I'm fine with this (although the fact that there are that many votes on me without much reasoning is rather bothersome...)
I'll redo the wording and such so as not to get modkilled:
I am the Dean of Pentacles, AKA "Two Chairs" or simply "The Dean". I'm Vanilla Town, and I really like to eat. I also have an "ability" where I can sneak to the pantry once a night for a snack, but that is a joke because it apparently has no effect on the game.
Near the beginning of the game I made food jokes, with this in mind. I also used the phrase "oh the flavor" or something with a secret second meaning.
Anyway, Wessel, I responded to your case on me. You have continued to not respond back, thus also preventing Iso from talking about it. As your case, to my knowledge, contains the majority of the points against me, I'd like you to respond to my response.
In fact, this wagon has pushed Tom from heavily leaning town to confirmed town for me.
Hey AG, do you have any scum reads? If so, who and why?
The arguments against FO were dropped before he was truly cleared in my mind, I have him as still leaning scum.
PG has been a nagging feeling at me all game. Ever since this post, almost every post from him has felt off. I can't pinpoint anything, but the way he dances around when he posts has me leaning scum.
I'll start with this whole argument. Now, FO has been contending that my statement that he made no response to this post before making this post is false and a misrepresentation. Technically, he did make this post immediatly afterwards, to which we had a small terminology debate at the time. However, even as he says later, his "response" to this is sarcastic, and not at all what I meant by a response. I was reffering to a post in which someone makes a non-joking reamrk or opinion or asks a question or something non-RVS. I no more consider that a post worth considering as a response than this one by Rhand. This combined with my interpretation of the wording "So what's the story with this post" is what made me originally think that post was opportunistic and aggressive. I have since then accepted your explanation, that you wanted to get it moving, even though that explanation has a flaw with it.
I would call that taking the bait. He broke RVS, he voted me, the entire rest of the game evolved from that point. Sure, it wasn't technically the same as what happened in Basic #66 if that's your interpretation of his actions, but it still accomplished the goal: ending RVS and getting reactions.
How have I tried to paint Iso in any way? Actually, I think I see where this misunderstanding is: "Taking the bait" is not reffering to catching scum, merely elliciting a non-RVS reaction. I have never said that Iso is scum for his action, or anything even remotly close to that.
I'm not certain what you are trying to prove here. IT WORKED. People left RVS.Furthermore, I did it in such a way as to try and prevent as much as the WIFOM as possible. As anyone who was in KoTH will tell you, people didn't like Stardust's claim that it was all a gambit because it was his word against his previous word. In the same way people breadcrum to support a later claim, I breadcrumbed the intentional nature of it. Saying that it ground the game to a halt is laughable. Nothing was happening before it, and my post started it.
Furthermore, you act as if I was intentionally avoiding responding to it once it became repetative, and we were waiting for days for me to post. Yes, I did not respond to Iso and reveal right away. Yes, I waited for more people to get in on it. It was 24 hours from my previous post to the reveal. During that time, Wessel questioned me, Iso questioned Wessel, you questioned me (saying everything was stalled), then Tom questioned and voted Iso, then I posted. I did not have an opportunity to post the reveal until then, and even after you said things were ground to a halt, Tom still brought up a new topic which is still being discussed. So, no, the game was not stalled in any meaningful way, and saying that my gambit slowed down the game forgets that there was no game before my gambit. However, I don't hold these timing arguments against you because I know most people don't check timestamps regullarly. Just drop this line.
You are correct in that I am not aware of who you used to play with, and perhaps they would have reacted like you do. When I read your original statement, my thought was equating it with, "everyone is doing it, so should you". A peer pressure argument. However, you have (now) explained what you meant by it, and I am perfectly happy to accept that and let the point drop. The thing I want you to understand about me then, is that if I don't see the town motivation, but do see the scum one, then I will call it out. By doing so I challenge you to provide the town explanation or refute the scum one. With your most recent comment, you have done so.
In this post you said you were completly, 100% sure I was scum. You said you knew what you needed to know. That is not scum hunting. You build cases, you ask questions, which you had not done. You just said "everything he has said is wrong" without backing it up. You said it's "demonstrably false" without demonstrating. That is what I take issue with, because I know that town make mistakes, and that is why you never stop asking them questions until they are unable to respond, either by being caught firmly, and then lynched, or by being lynched because enough people find their defense contrived or inadequate. It's not scumhunting to say, "I know they are scum, and that's that."
You never mentioned mischaracterization at the time of your vote. Here. I'm not saying that's why you are voting me now, even as I have changed from my original reason. Your comment right before the vote dealt with the gambit itself, correct? In fact, that particular statement makes little sense to me. "What did you expect people to do, just ignore you?". I thought you already knew what I was trying to do.
See above. Would you really count that particular post of yours as a response, an actual response, to mine?
Is it a statment that needed to be made? Do you understand why I might take issue with that statement?
I'll probably get around to Wessel and everyone else on another post. It didn't really strike me as off at the time, but I will have to look into it more.
Okay, as I said earlier, terminology confusion. Fine. I think we have another misunderstanding here. In your own words, what do you think the intent of my gambit was? What was it's goal, what would have made it "work"?
Fine explanation.
...Of being scum? But this point is no longer relevant, see what I said about timing earlier.
As far as I can see, no more than the change from this post. See what I've already said about changing opinions with explantion.
No unvote yet. Need to sleep and look into the other cases that are floating around.
It's prolly the fact that I've been doing not a whole lot... not even flailing a bunch... I want to try and find something scummy from someone (anyone), but there hasn't been a whole lot besides FO vs Misting and Tom vs Iso...
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