He claimed Bulletproof. If he is Town or Mafia, there would be little reason to lie about that, but I would not put it past Iso to false counter-claim altogether. The reality is that we don't know one way or the other.
The same holds for LMD and his Bodyguard claim. I think that from a game balance perspective, we probably don't have both a Town Bodyguard and a Bulletproof Town. I would not put it by any Mafioso to false-claim Doc to out the real Doc, so again we don't know for sure.
What benefit would it be to me to CC a town PR [because in this hypothetical world, LMD would have to be town] when he eventually flips town?
I took a gamble by CCing LMD, and it gives me absolutely no benefit not to continue pushing the FO lynch [as scum Iso] once LMD claims since he can easily be Nightkilled by the scum toNight if I am, in fact, falseclaiming.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Tom: You never told us what your mistake was. Why?
@Arches: You never answered my "What do you qualify as massive lurking", or respond why when I mentioned that you purposefully removed it from the quote (far worse than "pretty much" misquoting :D). Why?
@FO: Okay, sure. Why Iso, the CC'er, over Arches, the CC'd? This is standard procedure.
@Everyone not voting Iso or McD (if any): Why?
I like the case on Proph, but not over Arches.
Unless I hear some satisfactory answers as to why this is not a CC situation, I don't support a mass-claim.
Whoops, my fault. Axelrod is a friend of mine (got me into mafia), and I was using his computer to post very quickly, but didn't realize it was logged in as him. Won't happen again. Completely my fault.
I am not 100% sold on bulletproof and bodyguard being mutual exclusive roles in a basic.
Bodyguard is very weak while bulletproof is strong.
Wessel was a strong role too. Two strong roles + a weak one makes sense.
It would even make sense to add a bodyguard as 4th PR to balance out a strong scumteam. Is having exactly 3 PR's a policy here?
I prefer to lynch someone that I have a strong scumread on over a possible PR.
That's also the reason why I prefer to lynch Tom over Proph: if there is another PR out there, it can't be Tom.
I do. Part of my thinking is also that since there are 3 PR's (yes Rhand, this is assumed), our team would be Cop, Bodyguard, Bulletproof. This would also mean Iso was telling the truth about being Roleblocked, so the scum have a Roleblocker, and probably not anything else. With this set of PR's, I don't see a scum roleblocker being viable. For a scum roleblocker to work, just looking at FO's PR list from past games, there has always either been 3 blockable townies, or 2 powerful ones (like 66, which also had a backup). Here, we have one powerful one and one extremelly weak one, so a roleblocker seems not to fit. Furthermore, a bodyguard only fits when there are town PRs to guard, which we would have exactly one of. Again, looking back at past games, there have always been two. Sorry if this sounds like set up-gaming, but it just does not add up to me.
Rhand, why can it not be Tom again? Did he claim vanilla at some point (I forget :embarrass:)?
Whoops, my fault. Axelrod is a friend of mine (got me into mafia), and I was using his computer to post very quickly, but didn't realize it was logged in as him. Won't happen again. Completely my fault.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
For posterity's sake, the post that Misting posted from Axelrod's account and deleted:
"I don't see Bodyguard and Bulletproof together, no." in response to Eron's question about CC.
So, yeah, I deleted that post, not Misting (who is, in fact, a completely different person who sometimes uses the same computer). I wasn't even thinking about the fact I was deleting a post with possible game-related content in it, just that he had made a post under my name and I was trying to tidy that up.
I already PM'd the Mod. about this. Sorry, guys. My bad, not his. Carry on.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
For posterity's sake, the post that Misting posted from Axelrod's account and deleted:
"I don't see Bodyguard and Bulletproof together, no." in response to Eron's question about CC.
So, yeah, I deleted that post, not Misting (who is, in fact, a completely different person who sometimes uses the same computer). I wasn't even thinking about the fact I was deleting a post with possible game-related content in it, just that he had made a post under my name and I was trying to tidy that up.
I already PM'd the Mod. about this. Sorry, guys. My bad, not his. Carry on.
This is the truth, and all is right with the world. Please carry on.
In the future, if you notice something like this, please let me know instead of just griping about it in the thread. (Iso.)
@Arches: You never answered my "What do you qualify as massive lurking", or respond why when I mentioned that you purposefully removed it from the quote (far worse than "pretty much" misquoting :D). Why?
@Everyone not voting Iso or McD (if any): Why?
[/B]
1. When I read that post, FO was on his third prod (like I), I don't really have a clear definition of 'massive lurking' yet, but getting prodded 3 times in a game is probably within the ball park
2. I believe tom to be scum, far more than Iso, and unlike day 1, I honestly do at this point...also, why would I vote myself
I do. Part of my thinking is also that since there are 3 PR's (yes Rhand, this is assumed), our team would be Cop, Bodyguard, Bulletproof. This would also mean Iso was telling the truth about being Roleblocked, so the scum have a Roleblocker, and probably not anything else. With this set of PR's, I don't see a scum roleblocker being viable. For a scum roleblocker to work, just looking at FO's PR list from past games, there has always either been 3 blockable townies, or 2 powerful ones (like 66, which also had a backup). Here, we have one powerful one and one extremelly weak one, so a roleblocker seems not to fit. Furthermore, a bodyguard only fits when there are town PRs to guard, which we would have exactly one of. Again, looking back at past games, there have always been two. Sorry if this sounds like set up-gaming, but it just does not add up to me.
Rhand, why can it not be Tom again? Did he claim vanilla at some point (I forget :embarrass:)?
Tom and FO both claimed vanilla at some point: Tom because of pressure and FO because he had something in his lore that convinced him that Tom was speaking the truth.
I've asked this before; I think only Iso gave an opinion on it: does a roleblock on a bulletproof do anything?
Because if you can kill the bulletproof by roleblock + NK, then the roleblocker does make sense because it can block 2 strong roles.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What benefit would it be to me to CC a town PR [because in this hypothetical world, LMD would have to be town] when he eventually flips town?
It would benefit a Scum-Iso to CC LMD because its not a 100% CC. You aren't claiming Bodyguard or Doc, so its not that hard to paint it as bastard moderation if LMD flipped Town. It would be a big WIFOM argument either way.
Quote from Iso »
I took a gamble by CCing LMD, and it gives me absolutely no benefit not to continue pushing the FO lynch [as scum Iso] once LMD claims since he can easily be Nightkilled by the scum toNight if I am, in fact, falseclaiming.
If you were false-claiming scum, pushing for my lynch actually makes even more sense. Since LMD is a Bodyguard and not a Doc, there is no reason for the Mafia to NK him with the Cop already dead. Why would the Mafia bother to help out the Town by giving us free information? I would completely expect a scum-Iso to see that lynching a Vanilla and NK-ing a Vanilla is EXACTLY what the Mafia want to do right now because it basically puts us in the same spot we are in right now tomorrow except that we would be in LYLO.
I'm not saying that either of the above scenarios is absolutely true, but they are possibilities that make a lot of sense to me. Painting your counter-claim as some obv-Town atruistic gesture however is ignoring some fairly basic mafia deception techniques that someone of your experience should be able to see...
Everyone gets it by now. No matter what I do, its scummy. 10-4.
This is massively hyperbolic. Why are you overreacting when (I think?) the only person who is aggressively voting you is Iso?
It's called sarcasm. No matter what I say or do, Iso will be right there to try and paint it as scummy. I could say "Hello everyone" and Iso would probably reply "There goes scum-FO buddying up to everyone again :rolleyes:."
I'm not sure who to believe anymore. At first I thought Iso was full of crap, but looking at past roles and the role list from the stickied thread I linked briefly made me consider otherwise. I am back to thinking that Iso is full of crap... this is on top of all my other reads that point to Iso being scum.
I am not 100% sold on bulletproof and bodyguard being mutual exclusive roles in a basic.
Bodyguard is very weak while bulletproof is strong.
Wessel was a strong role too. Two strong roles + a weak one makes sense.
It would even make sense to add a bodyguard as 4th PR to balance out a strong scumteam. Is having exactly 3 PR's a policy here?
The only way to truly figure out what is going on with the setup is to continue with the mass-claim. We are almost assured that we have 3 Town PR's, and I can go back and analyze more past setups to confirm this if need be. If we have nothing but vanilla claims then we can assume that they are both Town and telling the truth and we can move on to other things.
I prefer to lynch someone that I have a strong scumread on over a possible PR.
That's also the reason why I prefer to lynch Tom over Proph: if there is another PR out there, it can't be Tom.
[QUOTE=EtR;/comments/10872511]Misting, you believe this to be a counter claim?
I do. Part of my thinking is also that since there are 3 PR's (yes Rhand, this is assumed), our team would be Cop, Bodyguard, Bulletproof. This would also mean Iso was telling the truth about being Roleblocked, so the scum have a Roleblocker, and probably not anything else. With this set of PR's, I don't see a scum roleblocker being viable. For a scum roleblocker to work, just looking at FO's PR list from past games, there has always either been 3 blockable townies, or 2 powerful ones (like 66, which also had a backup). Here, we have one powerful one and one extremelly weak one, so a roleblocker seems not to fit. Furthermore, a bodyguard only fits when there are town PRs to guard, which we would have exactly one of. Again, looking back at past games, there have always been two. Sorry if this sounds like set up-gaming, but it just does not add up to me.
Rhand, why can it not be Tom again? Did he claim vanilla at some point (I forget :embarrass:)?
I agree with this analysis of the setup. The part about Iso having claimed to have been roleblocked and being the person who is claiming Bulletproof seem contradictory from a setup standpoint.
I've asked this before; I think only Iso gave an opinion on it: does a roleblock on a bulletproof do anything?
Because if you can kill the bulletproof by roleblock + NK, then the roleblocker does make sense because it can block 2 strong roles.
A Roleblock on a Bulletproof shouldn't deactivate it.
A Town Bulletproof and a Town Roleblocker.... in a Basic... when was the last time either role was Town in a Basic on this site? I would take the chances that you are lying scum over that being true anytime.
I can really get behind Iso being his crazy self. At the same token, McDo's posts are horrendous, bus as I've proven countless times, I can't read noobs.
I guess it does make sense that we have 3 PRs, 2 now that the cop is dead, so it doesn't make sense for both LMD and Iso to be town if the scum have a roleblocker.
But then, if the roleblocker can get rid of bulletproofness, maybe it does make sense.
I'm surprised Iso got a notification that he was roleblocked if he is just a bulletproof. Do vanilla town get such notifications?
But if that is the case then we should have another PR. They haven't revealed themselves though.
I'm really confused right now. I'm not sure if a LMD lynch is smart or not, but I'm leaning towards it. He has a lot of terrible, scummy posts and was the one "counterclaimed".
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
For your weak play at the start, with the vote on FO as highlight.
For your diversion with the mass name claim.
For how you buddy the ones that see you as town and omgus those that don't.
For how you respond to cases by saying that you've already answered them.
For how you tried to use mathematics to "catch" scum and weren't listening to people telling you how that made no sense.
Since then, Tom votes and unvotes without reasonings and fails to deliver when he is asked for reasons / cases.
Questions he never answered:
* What was the day 1 mistake? (Eron/Misting)
* What is the case on McDo? (different people)
* What is the reason for the Proph vote? (FO)
I can really get behind Iso being his crazy self. At the same token, McDo's posts are horrendous, bus as I've proven countless times, I can't read noobs.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It would benefit a Scum-Iso to CC LMD because its not a 100% CC. You aren't claiming Bodyguard or Doc, so its not that hard to paint it as bastard moderation if LMD flipped Town. It would be a big WIFOM argument either way.
He says scum Iso benefits from the counterclaim because whatever McDo flips, your claim can still hold up.
If you were false-claiming scum, pushing for my lynch actually makes even more sense. Since LMD is a Bodyguard and not a Doc, there is no reason for the Mafia to NK him with the Cop already dead. Why would the Mafia bother to help out the Town by giving us free information? I would completely expect a scum-Iso to see that lynching a Vanilla and NK-ing a Vanilla is EXACTLY what the Mafia want to do right now because it basically puts us in the same spot we are in right now tomorrow except that we would be in LYLO.
He says scum Iso pushing the FO lynch makes sense because if McDo / you don't flip, we're in the same situation tomorrow in lylo.
I'm not saying that either of the above scenarios is absolutely true, but they are possibilities that make a lot of sense to me. Painting your counter-claim as some obv-Town atruistic gesture however is ignoring some fairly basic mafia deception techniques that someone of your experience should be able to see...
He keeps an open mind to other possibilities but sees scum Iso as making most sense.
He says a counterclaim is a basic mafia deception technique.
It's called sarcasm. No matter what I say or do, Iso will be right there to try and paint it as scummy. I could say "Hello everyone" and Iso would probably reply "There goes scum-FO buddying up to everyone again :rolleyes:."
He says you're painting him as scum with every post he makes.
I'm not sure who to believe anymore. At first I thought Iso was full of crap, but looking at past roles and the role list from the stickied thread I linked briefly made me consider otherwise. I am back to thinking that Iso is full of crap... this is on top of all my other reads that point to Iso being scum.
He has doubted you being scum because of the claim, but is again convinced.
The only way to truly figure out what is going on with the setup is to continue with the mass-claim. We are almost assured that we have 3 Town PR's, and I can go back and analyze more past setups to confirm this if need be. If we have nothing but vanilla claims then we can assume that they are both Town and telling the truth and we can move on to other things.
He is pretty sure that there are exactly 3 town PR's. He says that a massclaim is the only way to be sure wether one of the claimed PR's must be lying.
Can you summarize your Tom case?
He asks me to summarize my Tom case
I agree with this analysis of the setup. The part about Iso having claimed to have been roleblocked and being the person who is claiming Bulletproof seem contradictory from a setup standpoint.
He agrees with Misting that Cop + Bodyguard + Bulletproof vs. Roleblocker makes no sense and adds that you being Bulletproof and scum having a roleblocker seem contradictory.
Please don't ask for a deadline. There are plenty of things to work out and discuss, and rushing this process makes no sense.
He says we need more time.
A Roleblock on a Bulletproof shouldn't deactivate it.
He answers my question.
A Town Bulletproof and a Town Roleblocker.... in a Basic... when was the last time either role was Town in a Basic on this site? I would take the chances that you are lying scum over that being true anytime.
He doesn't believe that we have a town bulletproof and a town roleblocker.
I don't see him calling you a PR and I don't see him saying that there being a roleblocker is a fact.
He can't point out what doesn't exist, but I guarantee you that Iso will find some way to torture logic and twist words to support just about anything right now.
Quote from Rhand »
For your weak play at the start, with the vote on FO as highlight.
For your diversion with the mass name claim.
For how you buddy the ones that see you as town and omgus those that don't.
For how you respond to cases by saying that you've already answered them.
For how you tried to use mathematics to "catch" scum and weren't listening to people telling you how that made no sense.
Thank you for posting this. I read Tom as being the guy who scumhunts by jumping his vote around without realizing just how bad it looks. I'm not sure how experienced he is (or anybody else for that matter) so I'm not sure that it is immediately a scum-tell. Of the five points above, the first and the third are the only ones I really worry about. His responses to Iso were seemingly out of frustration, which I can attest to being just as frustrated with Iso in this game so I don't hold that against him. The whole math %'s thing was a big stretch, but I've seen worse (in this game) and it can just as easily be an over-zealous Townie. I was for a mass nameclaim also, so I abviously don't hold that against him either (although I think the timing was the main issue).
Quote from Rhand »
Since then, Tom votes and unvotes without reasonings and fails to deliver when he is asked for reasons / cases.
Questions he never answered:
* What was the day 1 mistake? (Eron/Misting)
* What is the case on McDo? (different people)
* What is the reason for the Proph vote? (FO)
To me, this is much more troubling. His vote-jumpiness comes accross as much more wagon-ish, and people are asking for his reasoning and he isn't providing it. If Tom flipped scum, I would have to reconsider a lot of things (Iso and IB would be Town; Misting scum). I just don't see it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Vote count:
Prophylaxis (2): AtheistGod, EtR
Iso (2): infectiousbaloth, Forgotten One
Tom (2): Rhand, Lord_McDonalds
Lord_McDonalds (1): Prophylaxis
Forgotten One (1): Iso
Not Voting (2): Misting, Tom
There is not currently a deadline. Please keep the game moving.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh God Iso that kinda stuff is happening way to much with you this game. It is really hard to believe you are town when you do this.
I guess I'm up for killing LMD today and killing Iso tomorrow if LMD flips town. However if there really is a town bodyguard and bulletproof this game, we lose, which is my only reservation. I can't think of anything better to do right now though.
I guess I'm up for killing LMD today and killing Iso tomorrow if LMD flips town. However if there really is a town bodyguard and bulletproof this game, we lose, which is my only reservation. I can't think of anything better to do right now though.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I guess I'm up for killing LMD today and killing Iso tomorrow if LMD flips town. However if there really is a town bodyguard and bulletproof this game, we lose, which is my only reservation. I can't think of anything better to do right now though.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Eh, your terrible posts have already been pointed out, and the main thing is that you were essentially counter-claimed unless we are failing at logic or this game is set up really strangely.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What is your view on Tom and AG?
FO: why do you believe that Iso is bulletproof?
He claimed Bulletproof. If he is Town or Mafia, there would be little reason to lie about that, but I would not put it past Iso to false counter-claim altogether. The reality is that we don't know one way or the other.
The same holds for LMD and his Bodyguard claim. I think that from a game balance perspective, we probably don't have both a Town Bodyguard and a Bulletproof Town. I would not put it by any Mafioso to false-claim Doc to out the real Doc, so again we don't know for sure.
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Let's suppose I'm falseclaiming scum.
What benefit would it be to me to CC a town PR [because in this hypothetical world, LMD would have to be town] when he eventually flips town?
I took a gamble by CCing LMD, and it gives me absolutely no benefit not to continue pushing the FO lynch [as scum Iso] once LMD claims since he can easily be Nightkilled by the scum toNight if I am, in fact, falseclaiming.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is massively hyperbolic. Why are you overreacting when (I think?) the only person who is aggressively voting you is Iso?
TIL: Never play sc2mafia/epicmafia/other role based mafias again
@Arches: You never answered my "What do you qualify as massive lurking", or respond why when I mentioned that you purposefully removed it from the quote (far worse than "pretty much" misquoting :D). Why?
@FO: Okay, sure. Why Iso, the CC'er, over Arches, the CC'd? This is standard procedure.
@Everyone not voting Iso or McD (if any): Why?
I like the case on Proph, but not over Arches.
Unless I hear some satisfactory answers as to why this is not a CC situation, I don't support a mass-claim.
@Mod: Vote-count please? Thanks.
I am not 100% sold on bulletproof and bodyguard being mutual exclusive roles in a basic.
Bodyguard is very weak while bulletproof is strong.
Wessel was a strong role too. Two strong roles + a weak one makes sense.
It would even make sense to add a bodyguard as 4th PR to balance out a strong scumteam. Is having exactly 3 PR's a policy here?
I prefer to lynch someone that I have a strong scumread on over a possible PR.
That's also the reason why I prefer to lynch Tom over Proph: if there is another PR out there, it can't be Tom.
I do. Part of my thinking is also that since there are 3 PR's (yes Rhand, this is assumed), our team would be Cop, Bodyguard, Bulletproof. This would also mean Iso was telling the truth about being Roleblocked, so the scum have a Roleblocker, and probably not anything else. With this set of PR's, I don't see a scum roleblocker being viable. For a scum roleblocker to work, just looking at FO's PR list from past games, there has always either been 3 blockable townies, or 2 powerful ones (like 66, which also had a backup). Here, we have one powerful one and one extremelly weak one, so a roleblocker seems not to fit. Furthermore, a bodyguard only fits when there are town PRs to guard, which we would have exactly one of. Again, looking back at past games, there have always been two. Sorry if this sounds like set up-gaming, but it just does not add up to me.
Rhand, why can it not be Tom again? Did he claim vanilla at some point (I forget :embarrass:)?
...and I'm not even voting him.
Because garbage post from Proph.
And then Misting was an Axelrod gimmick.
And yes, Tom claimed VT.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
"I don't see Bodyguard and Bulletproof together, no." in response to Eron's question about CC.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So, yeah, I deleted that post, not Misting (who is, in fact, a completely different person who sometimes uses the same computer). I wasn't even thinking about the fact I was deleting a post with possible game-related content in it, just that he had made a post under my name and I was trying to tidy that up.
I already PM'd the Mod. about this. Sorry, guys. My bad, not his. Carry on.
This is the truth, and all is right with the world. Please carry on.
In the future, if you notice something like this, please let me know instead of just griping about it in the thread. (Iso.)
1. When I read that post, FO was on his third prod (like I), I don't really have a clear definition of 'massive lurking' yet, but getting prodded 3 times in a game is probably within the ball park
2. I believe tom to be scum, far more than Iso, and unlike day 1, I honestly do at this point...also, why would I vote myself
@Mod: Vote count and deadline, please?
Tom and FO both claimed vanilla at some point: Tom because of pressure and FO because he had something in his lore that convinced him that Tom was speaking the truth.
I've asked this before; I think only Iso gave an opinion on it: does a roleblock on a bulletproof do anything?
Because if you can kill the bulletproof by roleblock + NK, then the roleblocker does make sense because it can block 2 strong roles.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It would benefit a Scum-Iso to CC LMD because its not a 100% CC. You aren't claiming Bodyguard or Doc, so its not that hard to paint it as bastard moderation if LMD flipped Town. It would be a big WIFOM argument either way.
If you were false-claiming scum, pushing for my lynch actually makes even more sense. Since LMD is a Bodyguard and not a Doc, there is no reason for the Mafia to NK him with the Cop already dead. Why would the Mafia bother to help out the Town by giving us free information? I would completely expect a scum-Iso to see that lynching a Vanilla and NK-ing a Vanilla is EXACTLY what the Mafia want to do right now because it basically puts us in the same spot we are in right now tomorrow except that we would be in LYLO.
I'm not saying that either of the above scenarios is absolutely true, but they are possibilities that make a lot of sense to me. Painting your counter-claim as some obv-Town atruistic gesture however is ignoring some fairly basic mafia deception techniques that someone of your experience should be able to see...
It's called sarcasm. No matter what I say or do, Iso will be right there to try and paint it as scummy. I could say "Hello everyone" and Iso would probably reply "There goes scum-FO buddying up to everyone again :rolleyes:."
I agree with this analysis of the setup. The part about Iso having claimed to have been roleblocked and being the person who is claiming Bulletproof seem contradictory from a setup standpoint.
Please don't ask for a deadline. There are plenty of things to work out and discuss, and rushing this process makes no sense.
A Roleblock on a Bulletproof shouldn't deactivate it.
A Town Bulletproof and a Town Roleblocker.... in a Basic... when was the last time either role was Town in a Basic on this site? I would take the chances that you are lying scum over that being true anytime.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I guess it does make sense that we have 3 PRs, 2 now that the cop is dead, so it doesn't make sense for both LMD and Iso to be town if the scum have a roleblocker.
But then, if the roleblocker can get rid of bulletproofness, maybe it does make sense.
I'm surprised Iso got a notification that he was roleblocked if he is just a bulletproof. Do vanilla town get such notifications?
But if that is the case then we should have another PR. They haven't revealed themselves though.
I'm really confused right now. I'm not sure if a LMD lynch is smart or not, but I'm leaning towards it. He has a lot of terrible, scummy posts and was the one "counterclaimed".
Anyway, FO just simultaneously scumslipped and cleared me as town.
Unvote, Vote FO
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What are you talking about? 1) It's kinda hard to "scumslip" when I'm not scum, and 2) you can't possibly be this bad at this game.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I summarised why I was voting Tom here:
Since then, Tom votes and unvotes without reasonings and fails to deliver when he is asked for reasons / cases.
Questions he never answered:
* What was the day 1 mistake? (Eron/Misting)
* What is the case on McDo? (different people)
* What is the reason for the Proph vote? (FO)
Are you saying you're bussing McDo?
I don't see this in FO's post?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll dissect his post for you:
He says scum Iso benefits from the counterclaim because whatever McDo flips, your claim can still hold up.
He says scum Iso pushing the FO lynch makes sense because if McDo / you don't flip, we're in the same situation tomorrow in lylo.
He keeps an open mind to other possibilities but sees scum Iso as making most sense.
He says a counterclaim is a basic mafia deception technique.
He says you're painting him as scum with every post he makes.
He has doubted you being scum because of the claim, but is again convinced.
He is pretty sure that there are exactly 3 town PR's. He says that a massclaim is the only way to be sure wether one of the claimed PR's must be lying.
He asks me to summarize my Tom case
He agrees with Misting that Cop + Bodyguard + Bulletproof vs. Roleblocker makes no sense and adds that you being Bulletproof and scum having a roleblocker seem contradictory.
He says we need more time.
He answers my question.
He doesn't believe that we have a town bulletproof and a town roleblocker.
I don't see him calling you a PR and I don't see him saying that there being a roleblocker is a fact.
so I ask you again: point it out please.
Thank you for posting this. I read Tom as being the guy who scumhunts by jumping his vote around without realizing just how bad it looks. I'm not sure how experienced he is (or anybody else for that matter) so I'm not sure that it is immediately a scum-tell. Of the five points above, the first and the third are the only ones I really worry about. His responses to Iso were seemingly out of frustration, which I can attest to being just as frustrated with Iso in this game so I don't hold that against him. The whole math %'s thing was a big stretch, but I've seen worse (in this game) and it can just as easily be an over-zealous Townie. I was for a mass nameclaim also, so I abviously don't hold that against him either (although I think the timing was the main issue).
To me, this is much more troubling. His vote-jumpiness comes accross as much more wagon-ish, and people are asking for his reasoning and he isn't providing it. If Tom flipped scum, I would have to reconsider a lot of things (Iso and IB would be Town; Misting scum). I just don't see it.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And...
/barn
I'm not convinced of Iso being auto-town if Tom flips scum. They've let go of each other a long time ago. It might as well be distancing.
How does it make IB town and Misting scum?
Prophylaxis (2): AtheistGod, EtR
Iso (2): infectiousbaloth, Forgotten One
Tom (2): Rhand, Lord_McDonalds
Lord_McDonalds (1): Prophylaxis
Forgotten One (1): Iso
Not Voting (2): Misting, Tom
There is not currently a deadline. Please keep the game moving.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I guess I'm up for killing LMD today and killing Iso tomorrow if LMD flips town. However if there really is a town bodyguard and bulletproof this game, we lose, which is my only reservation. I can't think of anything better to do right now though.
Vote: LMD
So I do get a case after all right
and why were you voting proph?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
how did you misquote this as me
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
lol
Eh, your terrible posts have already been pointed out, and the main thing is that you were essentially counter-claimed unless we are failing at logic or this game is set up really strangely.
I was voting proph for his bad post.
Because if LMD is town, I highly doubt I could deter my lynch following his flip.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So here's hoping that LMD is scum if he's the lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah, and as I'm you know, I was referring to the fact that I wasn't sure your lynch would be a mislynch.