And while you're at it, as best you can, tell me why you would rather not fully claim this ability.
Because if I claim it, the Mafia will be able to get around it.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory than be mislynched.
Get around "it" is not especially satisfying.
So, you are claiming this is something bad for the Mafia, if you do "it" as long as they don't know what "it" is? And then you die?
You didn't answer my question about the locks either.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Also @Cythare - I don't know if it's a good idea to put WoD at L-1 until we have a discussion around ced hammering or not, but that's my opinion on it.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Also @Cythare - I don't know if it's a good idea to put WoD at L-1 until we have a discussion around ced hammering or not, but that's my opinion on it.
Huh. Apparently I'm a little late to the party.
I brought it up earlier. I had forgotten about ced's hammer request, since it was really early on. At this point, since WoD lured himself, I'd prefer to have someone hammer.
EBWOTP: *someone else. Unless we are able to have a meaningful enough conversation to decide how much we trust ced as a group, I'm not comfortable with him hammering. This concern could be alleviated by someone else unvoting WoD for the time being so he's out of hammer range.
Please, somebody unvote now, as WOD has put himself in Ced's hammer range. Note that this could very easily be his attempt to set up for Ced since he waited an additional post to vote himself. I think that speaks to a certain amount of, "Oh yeah, and might as well help my buddy!"
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
As I said before, I'm not fond of ced hammering either, not without at least explaning good reasoning as why to do so.
And props to Xyre. A bit ironic that the meta hater was called out by his meta in the first place lol
@dC: you can now point out what was wrong with my reasoning, but I don't think it was wrong at all
So, who hammers in if not ced?
So. Many. Bad. Feelings. About the bolded.
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I just had an insight here in Modgamingville, WIFOMburg: if "All in" is for real, maybe it's smarter to let a scummy player hammer WoD. If it truly kills WoD on use, it's probably because it also kills another player depending on certain conditions. One of which could be a player trying to vig/NK/hammer WoD, in the same way the Pokemon move Destiny Bond does.
This is entirely, double-layered speculation, but based on it I would have no qualms on putting Shark to hammer WoD.
#1 I was nath'd. Unfakevote No reason to lynch scum that wants to die when we can get him later and lynch another scum now instead.
#2 I think Axelrod started trying to bus his scumbuddy a few pages ago. I'm pretty sure we can catch two scum off this.
Fakeunrealproxyvotethatdoesn'tcount Axelrod
So shall we try for the double play?
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
#1 I was nath'd. Unfakevote No reason to lynch scum that wants to die when we can get him later and lynch another scum now instead.
#2 I think Axelrod started trying to bus his scumbuddy a few pages ago. I'm pretty sure we can catch two scum off this.
Fakeunrealproxyvotethatdoesn'tcount Axelrod
So shall we try for the double play?
Nath'd by who? And when? You posted nearly an hour after WoD voted himself.
Also, what do you mean by "double play"? Are you suggesting we lynch Axelrod instead?
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
My fake vote is on WoD as well. If you respect that at all, then WoD is effectively at L-1.
You're off by one there. WoD is now at L-2, because Guardman unvoted, but this post feels a little out of place. However, I forgot that you can't vote until I was halfway through writing the rest of this post, so it makes a little more sense.
Please, somebody unvote now, as WOD has put himself in Ced's hammer range. Note that this could very easily be his attempt to set up for Ced since he waited an additional post to vote himself. I think that speaks to a certain amount of, "Oh yeah, and might as well help my buddy!"
While I don't think this is in any way enough to implicate ced, the bolded is definitely worth noting. Self-voting at L-2 is very unusual, and the above is a very logical conclusion as to why it was done. At the very least, it definitely makes me want to look into ced more. I'm also assuming that's how he unlocks his locks.
I just had an insight here in Modgamingville, WIFOMburg: if "All in" is for real, maybe it's smarter to let a scummy player hammer WoD. If it truly kills WoD on use, it's probably because it also kills another player depending on certain conditions. One of which could be a player trying to vig/NK/hammer WoD, in the same way the Pokemon move Destiny Bond does.
This is entirely, double-layered speculation, but based on it I would have no qualms on putting Shark to hammer WoD.
I honestly don't care who hammers, as long as it isn't ced. If it really doesn't matter, I'm okay with a scummier player hammering. So you're suggesting that All In might make him some sort of Super Saint?
EBWODP: @AI: I could say the same about your 10-day lurking and low postcount.
I was very right at the end. That made me happy because I did a correct reasoning and contributed to the game and town advantage, despite what was said. Mudsling it as you want, it won't change my logical process
I like Asenion's call about Axel busing, especially given that I also think Axelrod pussyfooted around the WoD wagon until he was convinced it was definitely going to take off.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
EBWODP: @AI: I could say the same about your 10-day lurking and low postcount.
I was very right at the end. That made me happy because I did a correct reasoning and contributed to the game and town advantage, despite what was said. Mudsling it as you want, it won't change my logical process
That was not mudslinging. Mudslinging is making 8 days inactive into 10 and judging my play based on postcount.
I'm not attacking your logical process. I'm saying that the gloating you did felt like the convicted killer who gets off on a clerical error and then declares himself innocent.
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
For the record, I'm obviously not going to hammer (my unlock trigger) unless there's a majority in favor - although, if you're going to say no, you'll definitely need to justify yourself.
For me to have an opinion, I need to have information. I realize that it's your unlock trigger; I don't think anyone who is paying attention didn't already come to that conclusion. So question:
Why did you claim your unlock trigger so soon into the game? What was the inherent strategical play of this maneuver?
Because to me it looks like Wrath tried to give you the hammer by putting himself at L-1.
Until the question and the previous point are fully addressed, I'm voting "no" on letting you hammer here.
So I started a reread of Shark. I wasn't attempting to analyze what he said early what with the 4 scum thing and all, but rather I was looking for other peoples' reactions to what Shark has said. I didn't get too far, though, before I read this bit again:
2. Apparently I was not making myself clear with my response so let's try this again.
Vote: Non-serious.
Catching 2-scum: Non-serious joke meant to stir reaction.
Claiming 4 scum: An internalized expectation to this game. Did not believe it was a slip, though I can understand (now) how it can be perceived as a slip.
My emphasis. I'm not sure how I didn't catch this before, and from the looks of it nobody else paid it much heed either. Right now it strikes me as really odd phrasing. If Shark had said, "It was not a slip, though I can understand (now) hot it can be perceived as a slip," I would totally get him. Townies can and do make statements that appear as if they have some sort of insider information.
What Shark said, however, is that he believes it wasn't a slip. That's a really weird way to put it. In mafia there isn't really much believing about yourself or what you say; you either know something about yourself or you don't. There are cases like where you might believe you're a miller or a naive cop or something like that, but that's more hidden information about your role, not about what you said. What you say reflects a state of mind; your state of mind is not something you believe, it just is.
Furthermore, the grammatical phrasing is odd. "Did not believe" implies that at one point you, well, did not believe but now you do believe. So did Shark believe he had made a slip at the time he wrote the quoted post? I can't really tell because grammatically the phrase is a mess.
Basically I'm beginning to think Shark made another slip when trying to write off his slip about there being four scum. Saying, " did not believe it was a slip," shows that Shark is conflicted about whether he made a slip or not. Since townies can't make slips when it comes to knowing how many scum are in the game Shark cannot be town if he made a slip. I'm inclined to think he's now made two.
@Nis: I think you are looking too much into that phrasing. Did what I say not mean the same thing as "It was not a slip, though I can understand (now) hot it can be perceived as a slip"? I don't think I have to say all of that.
Take a look at what I wrote again. I replaced the first part of your statement (the "Did not believe it was a slip" part) and replaced it with "It was not a slip..." The second half is your own words repeated. If you now feel like you did not have to say all of it, why did you use more words than what I used?
"Did not believe it was a slip, though I can understand (now) how it can be perceived as a slip.": 20 words
"It was not a slip, though I can understand (now) how it can be perceived as a slip.": 18 words
If my phrasing is less then how can you think now that you didn't have to say all of what I said?
At the time I posted, I did not believe that what I posted would be in any sense percieved as a slip. I saw (once pointed out) how it could.
That definitely makes more sense. If you had used that word, "perceived", then your statement would not have struck me now. As it is, I still think you made a slip trying to cover your other slip.
That does nothing to rebut Xyre's argument. Let's up the pressure. Unvote Vote Wrath_of_DoG
1. Nis' first posts for a while were basically totally null, non-content. Occasionally he questions one aspect or another in the game, he is trying to be helpful without any real solids in his post. He does mention some suspicion of Eco. He questions him in #257 in regards of wording alluding to knowing Asenion is townie. Also questions Arnnaria on his summary of Ecophagy in http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9186864#post9186864 because Arnnaria didn't mention specific posts Eco made that Nis didn't like.
2. It took Nis to page 30 to make his first serious vote with a re-read of me. Now this is a minor deal, but when you look at the position he would have been on my wagon if it had grew to the point of lynch, then he would have been in the middle of the wagon, as a scum-bandwagon.
3. The real thing that ping'd my radar was Nis jumping onto the WoD wagon. I feel like he was just voting me to be on a major wagon, and when he saw an opportunity to jump onto another wagon of a more experienced player, knowing with players like Ecophagy and DesCoures that my wagon would never subside, he took a chance to get on the main wagon and push it to the end.
@ced395:
On Vitek: Most of my previous arguments really don't hold now. My main point on him was "he's trying to look like he's doing something, ergo he's scum." Just general active lurking. But his replacement for IRL does nullify my argument because I know from my own experience IRL can affect stuff. But I've liked Cythare's play since he's joined so nothing bad there. Summary: If Vitek had not replaced, I'd still consider him probable scum, but Cythare changed my opinion to town.
Aside: This "All-In" thing still is worries me. I wouldn't mind hammering in case of bomb.
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"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
I don't trust ced enough to have a hammer vote. We should avoid letting him have it.
That's unfortunate
Why do you feel that way?
This question goes for everyone else who hasn't previously commented on me, by the way.
I personally feel unless we are reasonably confident you are town, we should not let you hammer anyone.
As an aside, can we go back and look at CharmMaster, he has not posted much, but he did make that god awful attack back in post 526 on Kosa. As I stated in my post 530, it makes sense for him to make such an attack on Kosa if WoD was scum IMO.
You do know that pointing that out beforehand nullifies the chance of WoD doing it as you expect, don't you Shark?
Ah, delicious WIFOM. The way you have been bouncing around at people is really not making me think you're doing things that aren't exactly in our interest. add to that the smug attitude before and the confidence you seem to have despite no experience makes me think that you've got someone pushing you up. Vote Kosakosa.
Yeah, now the 2 questions that are raised in my mind is this:
1) What would Shark's motivations be for trying to feed WoD hints.
2) What is the motivation for Charm's attack on Kosakosa.
As for #1, it could be his attempt to buddy up with WoD as pointed out by Eco. It could also be him trying to coach him by dropping a hint to change what he is doing. There is still a chance it is a slip, but given how he thought the summary was "good analysis", I highly doubt that. There is another option here, which I will explain below.
As for #2, It seems like a very odd attack on something that is a very valid point to be pointing out. At first it seems like he could be trying to defend a scum buddy (In this case shark) via a chainsaw, but Charm is way too skilled to make such a simple slip like this. There is also a possibility he could be trying to muddy a townie shark by doing this attack. The thing is though is what motivation would a scum Charm have to do this. Well the most obvious choice in my mind is to protect WoD. Shark has already provided the out for him to use, so it may make sense here to try such a move.
Gonna need some time to think how to proceed on all this, but I do have a question for Charm.
@Charm: What exactly has KosaKosa done that you haven't seen in the best interests of the town?
P.S.: We have not had any word with the mod in 10 days now. Can we get a votecount please?
Edit: Arnn does raise a good point on how WoD selfvoted when he did. I dunno how I would read into this though given WoD is outted scum now. I really wish no one mentioned the Ced thing though and let him post on his own. If only for the possibility of getting more info on Ced based on what he does/says. At minimum if he did hammer without asking first, we could have had a big scum suspect going into D2, at best if he didn't hammer on his own accord, he would have gained more trust in my mind.
Also, I can get down for a Shark hammer for the reasons he stated. I'll take a look at his Nis case later.
#1 I was nath'd. Unfakevote No reason to lynch scum that wants to die when we can get him later and lynch another scum now instead.
#2 I think Axelrod started trying to bus his scumbuddy a few pages ago. I'm pretty sure we can catch two scum off this.
Fakeunrealproxyvotethatdoesn'tcount Axelrod
So shall we try for the double play?
Nath'd by who? And when? You posted nearly an hour after WoD voted himself.
Also, what do you mean by "double play"? Are you suggesting we lynch Axelrod instead?
I was phone posting and didn't see the new posts. And yes, I'm suggesting we lynch Axelrod instead. I think it's clear that he is scum as well, and that WoD is trying to get himself killed. I would rather kill the scum trying to bus his buddy and stay alive than the scum who is actively trying to die. Disrupting the enemies plans seems like a good idea to me.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
#1 I was nath'd. Unfakevote No reason to lynch scum that wants to die when we can get him later and lynch another scum now instead.
#2 I think Axelrod started trying to bus his scumbuddy a few pages ago. I'm pretty sure we can catch two scum off this.
Fakeunrealproxyvotethatdoesn'tcount Axelrod
So shall we try for the double play?
Nath'd by who? And when? You posted nearly an hour after WoD voted himself.
Also, what do you mean by "double play"? Are you suggesting we lynch Axelrod instead?
I was phone posting and didn't see the new posts. And yes, I'm suggesting we lynch Axelrod instead. I think it's clear that he is scum as well, and that WoD is trying to get himself killed. I would rather kill the scum trying to bus his buddy and stay alive than the scum who is actively trying to die. Disrupting the enemies plans seems like a good idea to me.
WoD has to be lynched. He's claimed to have a self-sacrifice ability, and though I now have my doubts that it is already fully unlocked, I don't think we can afford to take the chance.
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
I meant: why didn't you follow up on the interest in reactions?
Because everyone gave the "lol no" textbook answer.
Quote from ced395 »
I don't believe I was around at the time, was I?
You made at least one other post from that point onward. So yes, you were.
Quote from ced395No, not really. He may have made his points in a long-winded way, but they"re mostly pretty straightforward compared to yours.[/QUOTE »
I'd ask you how my points aren't straightforward but that's something that Axel still needs to answer for himself.
Quote from ced395 »
I haven't pointed them out? What about here and here?
How is one to read "this seems disingenuous" into any of that?
Quote from ced395 »
[QUOTE=Iso]
I disagree - I think Axel's indignation seems feigned and of the "I can't believe he caught me!" variety - hence, feigned.
What's that evaluation based on?
Oh gee, I dunno, maybe his posts? Y'know, the ones I pointed out?
Quote from ced395 »
Quote from Iso »
Why should my posts show emotion, eh?
I never said that they "should." I said I couldn't read anything from them.
Then why is that a point you felt the need to bring up, if it's irrelevant?
Well, to me it also looks like WoD is claimed scum.
I'm pretty sure he knows me well enough to know that I wouldn't just randomly end the day like that.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Asenion: I fail to see axelrod bussing WoD. Axel brought up meta on WoD that I looked into and axelrod played similarly then in regards to WoD and in that game was the tipping point that got WoD lynched (that day took forever and did not have a strong wagon until then).
Also, we are not going to leave claimed scum alive. So make your case on axel and tomorrow you can get to lynching him.
Guardman: why tan?
ced395: ditto Iso's quote. What do you mean WoD knows you wouldn't end the day that fast???
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"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
Do we want to propose a top 3 to vote the hammer? It might help to organize things.
1. Shark
2. Kosa
3. Tan
After thinking on it a bit, I'm pretty nervous about helping anyone unlock their locks because of the neutral. It could be that they have to perform several different tasks in order to unlock their ability. So for that reason, I oppose letting ced hammer.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah, I don't actually have a self-sacrifice ability, and it is locked. I'd have tried harder to milk it, but really I didn't think anyone was falling for it.
It has a red lock, and a yellow lock, and allowed me (once unlocked) to each night kill any player who would try to kill me, but instantly I'd die if I was targeted with a non-killing ability.
So mine is one of those roles that could definitely go either way.
I'm actually pretty gutted that I was given a scum role in this game, it looked awesome, but I'm just so terribly bad at being Mafia.
I guess it's time to take a closer look at WoD then....
Here in post #490 is the first time Axelrod interacts with WoD. This reads like he is admitting he was intentionally ignoring WoD. (Notice that this is after the Xyre accusation.)
His next post on the subject is a long "analysis" full of rock-solid fence-sitting here in post #509.
He finally seems to decide to pick a side and attack WoD in post #597 But then he almost immediately backpedals and sits on the fence some more in post #612 until it looks like WoD is sunk for sure. Then his next three posts at 623, 624, and 700 are 100 focused on attacking WoD.
The total picture I'm getting here, is that Axelrod and WoD are likely scumbuddies. First he ignored him, then he sat on the fence when WoD was in trouble and positioned himself, then he went all-in after WoD as soon as it was obvious that WoD was going down. Each stage of increased aggression against WoD was immediately proceeded by town actions that made WoD look worse.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I never saw anything that really needed to be commented on previously. If you want me to comment, please feel free to point them out if that's what you want.
It should have been largely clear what should be responded to and what shouldn't. Why is the onus on me?
And here is a prime example of backseat wagon driving - except one so eager you even threw in someone who not only isn't voting WoD, but who is just as concerned as I am over this wagon's speed and over the people on it. Heh. Ha ha.
I saw Eron unvote Tanarin, but I guess I thought he voted WoD, but he voted Kosa. If you think I intentionally did this, what would that mean for mean for Eron, Tanarin, and Kosa? Does that auto-make Eron town, since I made it look like he was voting WoD?
It actually means absolutely nothing for any of them - nice attempt at distraction, by the way. What it looked like instead was you encouraging a wagon while not really reading properly.
...of course, now that WoD has claimed scum, that doesn't quite follow. I'll have to look over that entire interaction again, but point dropped for now.
Xyre makes some, on the surface, interesting points here, but I'm not feeling this case.
For a start, WoD does bring it up later that he was already voting for Iso, so I don't think that the "self-fulfilling prophecy" thing follows from that. Guardman does raise a valid point later about WoD "talking to himself", although I think this may be too much reading into things - it could easily be WoD reviewing the same posts that motivated his Iso vote in the first place.
As for the meta thing, I do agree with his characterisation of WoD's scum play, but I also agree with Eco that this is something Xyre should have waited on before dropping. Xyre bringing this up as quickly as he did didn't really do the WoD case any favors, and, to compound things, inherently makes WIFOM of any follow-up WoD does to his game review.
It actually might be a point against Xyre, should WoD be scum - voting for him this quickly would make sense if Xyre was wanting to get "credit for the catch".
...and taking into account WoD-as-scum, this entire section now positively reeks. Right down to the attempt to discredit Xyre for, you know, being the first person to vote WoD and probably the main driver of that whole wagon.
This next little exchange serves to illustrate the point above, I feel. WoD's response is pretty in character for him, and yet Xyre seems to think that WoD is "lashing out" and that this is "interesting".
Then, Xyre still doesn't take into account that WoD's reread isn't done. Trying to ask WoD what the reread "accomplished" is entirely pointless, isn't it?
Since nobody responded to my aside in 626, I want to pose it as a direct question to the people going after Shark:
If Shark is scum, what is your perception of his mindset in the original "four scum" post, given that the odds are very good (based on previous zindabad games) that there are five mafia members in the game?
As I told ced, I work with in-game knowledge. Unless someone is willing to tell me for certain how many people are on the mafia team this game, that means absolutely nothing.
-------------------------------------
Rest of town:
I need to do some re-reading with the knowledge of WoD as scum. That considered, however, I can say that Xyre is almost certainly town, that Iso is probably town, and Kosa and Asenion now look a bit less dodgy - although I'll note that Kosa, in the end, never did explain just what about WoD's posts was so 'lacking' to him, only that they were.
For now I'm willing to give Kosa a pass, though, because ced still looks horrendously suspicious, especially given the quote I have in his section above. As such, I'm very much against ced being allowed to hammer.
....and actually, with WoD as scum, I'm suddenly a bit less certain about Shark. Especially since his supposed 'secret case' is on Nis, who's also caught my attention of late. I need to look at that case a bit more.
...uh? Are you reading that properly? The problem I have with ced isn't 'Shark's meta' - it's that Shark is so obviously and ridiculously scummy, and yet ced has been constantly defending him from the start, often in a blase and dismissive fashion (for reference: 'I'm tired of talking about Shark'), and is blatantly ignoring the marked difference between Shark in his one town game on this site (which is also his most recent completed game) and him here. That last bit is the only bit where Shark's meta comes into play.
Let me reread the exchange between you and ced then.
I also highly dislike your use of 'novel tactic' up there. It comes across as dismissive - almost as dismissive as 'I'm tired of talking about Shark'.
That was certainly not my intention. Now I'm wondering if you're projecting.
Let me put it this way: I saw you referencing Shark's meta as evidence in your exchange with ced. It's something I haven't seen before therefore it is new to me. I find it interesting and I would think it potentially useful if I didn't already think meta was so subjective. In no way did I mean to imply that I'm trying to throw it out of hand entirely; instead, I'm not giving it as much credence as you are. If you want to convince me then you need to give me something else.
Meta is subjective, someone's response to meta isn't. Again, what conclusions have you come to from re-reading me vs ced?
The former implies that you think something in the case is good. The latter implies nefarious reasoning that would seem to suggest the case is false. It's not rocket science why these two wouldn't seem to go together.
An invalid argument can be dressed up well with rhetoric and appeals. That doesn't make the argument right, but it can make it appealing. Think of anything that's come out of a politician's mouth. Think of most advertising. The thought that something is appealing yet still wrong is not unheard of.
Fair enough. Then let's change the question - are you actually suspicious of EtR or myself?
Err. That question was more of a 'isn't that common sense? why are you asking me this?' kind of question. I generally don't like using meta.
Wait, wait, wait. Isn't that what you're doing? You're pointing out that ced is ignoring Shark's meta. That is using Shark's meta. You are dissecting Shark's play in Intrigue in your last post!
First off - 'don't like using' doesn't mean 'don't use'.
Second off - Not only is that a very loose interpretation of 'using', I'm interested in ced's blatant misinterpretation of Shark's meta, not the meta itself. I'm certainly not using Shark's meta against Shark - I brought it up once against him, and that was because he pointed us to it himself.
And finally, while I note you hurriedly 'thought of a better word' and double-posted to correct it, I can't help but think the bolded is a Freudian slip.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory than be mislynched.
Xyre, you caught me good, and I never recovered. From now on, however, I will be doing analysis as both Town and Mafia.
I figure even if you guys let me live, my days are still numbered, as I made such a mess this Day that I won't be able to recover.
Get around "it" is not especially satisfying.
So, you are claiming this is something bad for the Mafia, if you do "it" as long as they don't know what "it" is? And then you die?
You didn't answer my question about the locks either.
But in a good way.
{Magic: The RPG}
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Huh. Apparently I'm a little late to the party.
{Magic: The RPG}
I brought it up earlier. I had forgotten about ced's hammer request, since it was really early on. At this point, since WoD lured himself, I'd prefer to have someone hammer.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
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My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Please, somebody unvote now, as WOD has put himself in Ced's hammer range. Note that this could very easily be his attempt to set up for Ced since he waited an additional post to vote himself. I think that speaks to a certain amount of, "Oh yeah, and might as well help my buddy!"
Yeah I really don't want ced to hammer.
And props to Xyre. A bit ironic that the meta hater was called out by his meta in the first place lol
@dC: you can now point out what was wrong with my reasoning, but I don't think it was wrong at all
So, who hammers in if not ced?
So. Many. Bad. Feelings. About the bolded.
Also against ced hammering.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This is entirely, double-layered speculation, but based on it I would have no qualms on putting Shark to hammer WoD.
#2 I think Axelrod started trying to bus his scumbuddy a few pages ago. I'm pretty sure we can catch two scum off this.
Fakeunrealproxyvotethatdoesn'tcount Axelrod
So shall we try for the double play?
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Nath'd by who? And when? You posted nearly an hour after WoD voted himself.
Also, what do you mean by "double play"? Are you suggesting we lynch Axelrod instead?
You're off by one there. WoD is now at L-2, because Guardman unvoted, but this post feels a little out of place. However, I forgot that you can't vote until I was halfway through writing the rest of this post, so it makes a little more sense.
While I don't think this is in any way enough to implicate ced, the bolded is definitely worth noting. Self-voting at L-2 is very unusual, and the above is a very logical conclusion as to why it was done. At the very least, it definitely makes me want to look into ced more. I'm also assuming that's how he unlocks his locks.
I honestly don't care who hammers, as long as it isn't ced. If it really doesn't matter, I'm okay with a scummier player hammering. So you're suggesting that All In might make him some sort of Super Saint?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I was very right at the end. That made me happy because I did a correct reasoning and contributed to the game and town advantage, despite what was said. Mudsling it as you want, it won't change my logical process
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That was not mudslinging. Mudslinging is making 8 days inactive into 10 and judging my play based on postcount.
I'm not attacking your logical process. I'm saying that the gloating you did felt like the convicted killer who gets off on a clerical error and then declares himself innocent.
Well, I'm glad you admitted it to make me feel better. I don't like meta catches either. I look forward to our next engagement, old friend.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
For me to have an opinion, I need to have information. I realize that it's your unlock trigger; I don't think anyone who is paying attention didn't already come to that conclusion. So question:
Why did you claim your unlock trigger so soon into the game? What was the inherent strategical play of this maneuver?
Because to me it looks like Wrath tried to give you the hammer by putting himself at L-1.
Until the question and the previous point are fully addressed, I'm voting "no" on letting you hammer here.
Yea, I agree. I just sped glanced and see that Xyre was right and a self-vote.
Here's my case for Nis-scum
1. Nis' first posts for a while were basically totally null, non-content. Occasionally he questions one aspect or another in the game, he is trying to be helpful without any real solids in his post. He does mention some suspicion of Eco. He questions him in #257 in regards of wording alluding to knowing Asenion is townie. Also questions Arnnaria on his summary of Ecophagy in http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9186864#post9186864 because Arnnaria didn't mention specific posts Eco made that Nis didn't like.
2. It took Nis to page 30 to make his first serious vote with a re-read of me. Now this is a minor deal, but when you look at the position he would have been on my wagon if it had grew to the point of lynch, then he would have been in the middle of the wagon, as a scum-bandwagon.
3. The real thing that ping'd my radar was Nis jumping onto the WoD wagon. I feel like he was just voting me to be on a major wagon, and when he saw an opportunity to jump onto another wagon of a more experienced player, knowing with players like Ecophagy and DesCoures that my wagon would never subside, he took a chance to get on the main wagon and push it to the end.
@ced395:
On Vitek: Most of my previous arguments really don't hold now. My main point on him was "he's trying to look like he's doing something, ergo he's scum." Just general active lurking. But his replacement for IRL does nullify my argument because I know from my own experience IRL can affect stuff. But I've liked Cythare's play since he's joined so nothing bad there. Summary: If Vitek had not replaced, I'd still consider him probable scum, but Cythare changed my opinion to town.
Aside: This "All-In" thing still is worries me. I wouldn't mind hammering in case of bomb.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
I personally feel unless we are reasonably confident you are town, we should not let you hammer anyone.
As an aside, can we go back and look at CharmMaster, he has not posted much, but he did make that god awful attack back in post 526 on Kosa. As I stated in my post 530, it makes sense for him to make such an attack on Kosa if WoD was scum IMO.
Here is a recap of said posts:
Edit: Arnn does raise a good point on how WoD selfvoted when he did. I dunno how I would read into this though given WoD is outted scum now. I really wish no one mentioned the Ced thing though and let him post on his own. If only for the possibility of getting more info on Ced based on what he does/says. At minimum if he did hammer without asking first, we could have had a big scum suspect going into D2, at best if he didn't hammer on his own accord, he would have gained more trust in my mind.
Also, I can get down for a Shark hammer for the reasons he stated. I'll take a look at his Nis case later.
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In light of KosaKosa suggesting a possible Super-Saint/bomb role, would it not be better to risk a possible non-town in case of that.
Also, who do you feel should hammer? Yourself or someone else?
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Even if that is the case we shouldn't have Ced hammer in case it's all a ploy. I say let Tan hammer.
I was phone posting and didn't see the new posts. And yes, I'm suggesting we lynch Axelrod instead. I think it's clear that he is scum as well, and that WoD is trying to get himself killed. I would rather kill the scum trying to bus his buddy and stay alive than the scum who is actively trying to die. Disrupting the enemies plans seems like a good idea to me.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
WoD has to be lynched. He's claimed to have a self-sacrifice ability, and though I now have my doubts that it is already fully unlocked, I don't think we can afford to take the chance.
Because everyone gave the "lol no" textbook answer.
You made at least one other post from that point onward. So yes, you were.
Oh gee, I dunno, maybe his posts? Y'know, the ones I pointed out?
Then why is that a point you felt the need to bring up, if it's irrelevant?
...did you just claim scum?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, we are not going to leave claimed scum alive. So make your case on axel and tomorrow you can get to lynching him.
Guardman: why tan?
ced395: ditto Iso's quote. What do you mean WoD knows you wouldn't end the day that fast???
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
Because Tan is scum.
1. Shark
2. Kosa
3. Tan
After thinking on it a bit, I'm pretty nervous about helping anyone unlock their locks because of the neutral. It could be that they have to perform several different tasks in order to unlock their ability. So for that reason, I oppose letting ced hammer.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It has a red lock, and a yellow lock, and allowed me (once unlocked) to each night kill any player who would try to kill me, but instantly I'd die if I was targeted with a non-killing ability.
So mine is one of those roles that could definitely go either way.
I'm actually pretty gutted that I was given a scum role in this game, it looked awesome, but I'm just so terribly bad at being Mafia.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
His next post on the subject is a long "analysis" full of rock-solid fence-sitting here in post #509.
He finally seems to decide to pick a side and attack WoD in post #597 But then he almost immediately backpedals and sits on the fence some more in post #612 until it looks like WoD is sunk for sure. Then his next three posts at 623, 624, and 700 are 100 focused on attacking WoD.
The total picture I'm getting here, is that Axelrod and WoD are likely scumbuddies. First he ignored him, then he sat on the fence when WoD was in trouble and positioned himself, then he went all-in after WoD as soon as it was obvious that WoD was going down. Each stage of increased aggression against WoD was immediately proceeded by town actions that made WoD look worse.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Like seriously that's almost what I was going to say verbatim.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hm.
(And somehow the nested quotes are making it more difficult to continue this posting style, with the mess of tags...)
--------------------------
@SharkFinnigan
It should have been largely clear what should be responded to and what shouldn't. Why is the onus on me?
It actually means absolutely nothing for any of them - nice attempt at distraction, by the way. What it looked like instead was you encouraging a wagon while not really reading properly.
...of course, now that WoD has claimed scum, that doesn't quite follow. I'll have to look over that entire interaction again, but point dropped for now.
@ced395, part 2
Pretty sure I answered this when Caex asked me about it.
...and taking into account WoD-as-scum, this entire section now positively reeks. Right down to the attempt to discredit Xyre for, you know, being the first person to vote WoD and probably the main driver of that whole wagon.
More of the above.
@Xyre
As I told ced, I work with in-game knowledge. Unless someone is willing to tell me for certain how many people are on the mafia team this game, that means absolutely nothing.
-------------------------------------
Rest of town:
I need to do some re-reading with the knowledge of WoD as scum. That considered, however, I can say that Xyre is almost certainly town, that Iso is probably town, and Kosa and Asenion now look a bit less dodgy - although I'll note that Kosa, in the end, never did explain just what about WoD's posts was so 'lacking' to him, only that they were.
For now I'm willing to give Kosa a pass, though, because ced still looks horrendously suspicious, especially given the quote I have in his section above. As such, I'm very much against ced being allowed to hammer.
....and actually, with WoD as scum, I'm suddenly a bit less certain about Shark. Especially since his supposed 'secret case' is on Nis, who's also caught my attention of late. I need to look at that case a bit more.
To whit, on Nis:
@Nis
Well? What's your conclusion here?
Meta is subjective, someone's response to meta isn't. Again, what conclusions have you come to from re-reading me vs ced?
Fair enough. Then let's change the question - are you actually suspicious of EtR or myself?
First off - 'don't like using' doesn't mean 'don't use'.
Second off - Not only is that a very loose interpretation of 'using', I'm interested in ced's blatant misinterpretation of Shark's meta, not the meta itself. I'm certainly not using Shark's meta against Shark - I brought it up once against him, and that was because he pointed us to it himself.
And finally, while I note you hurriedly 'thought of a better word' and double-posted to correct it, I can't help but think the bolded is a Freudian slip.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Please don't judge me too hard on my recent posts, I'm liek totally town.