I guess I'll lay off Ahyll for now since no one else wants to lynch the claimed survivor especially when not vigged. I really dont think IB is scum but I could go for SS. I'm going to go retread The IB case from yesterday.
@TIM: I think that it is possible that Fox had at least heard the term miller before and is lying, yes. I'm not sure that there is a good rationale for scum to make such a blatant and silly lie, but that doesn't change the fact that if Fox is lying about not knowing what a miller is that it could be indicative of her alignment.
I completely agree with you both, and I think that at the current juncture, it's not worth pursuing. It's just worth noting that either Foxlet is a forgetful person, or is lying for an unknown reason. It's not necessarily a scum tell, but it's certainly not townie.
@Cyouni: My opinion of it is that Foxlet is lying to us, which is at worst scummy and at best, anti-town.
Waffle #4. Note how there's absolutely no opinion on Fox's alignment.
And right after that, he claims that he thought that Foxlet was scummy all game...after more than enough people have expressed that they think Foxlet's scummy.
For reasons stated earlier and SharkFinnigan's defense of Silver.
Shark stated the following reason for Silver to be town:
And for this vote on Shark from Silver:
Silver talks about the SK tell as if he knew it the entire game. It has been mentioned by other players, but Silver decides to focus the tell on Shark rather than others.
You do realize that the SK thing was directed at IB, right?
The bolded: Silver knew something about Shark. Inside information might be a stretch here, but there is defiantly something Silver knows about Shark. I just don’t know what. Had Silver posted “and see if something turns up” then I would have left it alone.
Of course something is going to turn up. Any time sufficient pressure is applied in this game, SOMETHING will turn up. The question is whether it's what we're looking for or not. Stop trying to twist what I'm saying and make it look sinister. It's reflecting poorly on you.
I'll reiterate that I knew in my gut that there were scum on Manders' wagon. Relevant bit:
Quote from Me, 579 »
I feel that this suggests that we take a closer look at Cyan, AE, and Shark, since they all very quickly started her wagon...within a page or so of each other. IB and Jobie have been barning a ton this game, and then imploding Manders just wants out. Shark's random unvote without provocation or evidence makes him especially suspicious, considering he also didn't vote anyone in her place.
I pointed this out before TIM started the wagon on Shark!. I would have been perfectly fine pursuing any of these options, however since the wagon started on Shark, that's where events ended up. I don't know where you're seeing scum in this, but I will say this: Stop tunnel-visioning me. I don't know what I did that I offend you so much by existing, but screw off. I've done everything I can to prove myself, which maybe isn't the best way to go about things for the future, but that's where I'm at now. Maybe you should focus on actually hunting scum for once rather than trying to make me into one.
Here’s some useful posts from Shark to be anaylzed.
You do realize that I'm responsible for getting him to post his reads, right? Also RE@TIM: I think that his reads post is valid and contains interesting information. At that point in his wagon, I don't think that Shark was far enough along to actually be worried...given the fluidity of the wagons so far in this game. He probably expected that he could get off the hook. Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but I don't think he had yet entered pure WIFOM territory. That's just me, though.
I have had a strong town read on EP all game, and, again, I haven't like AE's posts this game. While AE isn't at the top of my list, people that are at the top of my list are likely to get lynched anyway. So I redirected from EP -> AE, so that if scum tried to NK someone (I think) strongly town, he would be protected. I don't know if the ability actually did anything, although it did resolve.
Anyone else confused by why Kpaca was nightkilled? I can't imagine he was vigged with a miller and a survivor...but Kpaca doesn't really make sense to NK from a mafia perspective either. Due to RL, he'd barely done anything this game. As time allows, I'll go back and look at Kpaca's posts....maybe scum were afraid of some line of reasoning he was adopting.
I just noticed how little jobie has posted could we perhaps get a prod on him?
Also @ Vox why do you have void at leaning scum?
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I don't see any reason IB, as scum, would go to the trouble of digging for a quote from a past game of fox's, based on an offhand comment by a scumbuddy, just so they could bus them, and actually get them lynched...
I don't see any reason IB, as scum, would go to the trouble of digging for a quote from a past game of fox's, based on an offhand comment by a scumbuddy, just so they could bus them, and actually get them lynched...
Unless they planned it. Don't just brush this off.
Anyone else confused by why Kpaca was nightkilled? I can't imagine he was vigged with a miller and a survivor...but Kpaca doesn't really make sense to NK from a mafia perspective either. Due to RL, he'd barely done anything this game. As time allows, I'll go back and look at Kpaca's posts....maybe scum were afraid of some line of reasoning he was adopting.
That's exactly WHY he was killed (just my belief, I don't have inside knowledge. ), because his death gives us so very little to work with. When Mafia kills one of the lurkers, it gives Town much less to work with.
His early game posts had very little of his own thoughts, and were mostly examples of situations and meta.
This gave me a vibe that he was just sitting back and watching, while being "helpful".
I was looking for any sort of reaction at all, maybe an OMGUS or something, but there wasn't any sort of reaction, just a "lol what" and ignored.
I got some reactions from some people that weren't cyan, but mostly I figured it was a failure.
Was lost on what was happening at that point, so I figured I'd do something random to see what would happen.
Thank you for answering.
First off, can you provide quotes and evidence for why Cyan had very few original thoughts? I find this about Cyan very hard to believe.
Second, I'm somewhat disturbed that you were looking for any reaction at all. When town play a gambit like yours, they are usually fishing for a specific response, one that scum are more prone to. When scum play a gambit, they bait any response they can get so they can call it scummy. Scum gambits don't fish for a specific response, they just fish for any reason to call a townie scum. That's what I really really don't like about your answers.
Finally, the fact that you ignored other responses to focus solely on Cyan is strange to me. I can't figure out if it's a scum tell, because part of me says you would/could bait any of those reactions and paint a town scum, but the other part of me says that maybe you wanted Cyan dead specifically.
I don't see any reason IB, as scum, would go to the trouble of digging for a quote from a past game of fox's, based on an offhand comment by a scumbuddy, just so they could bus them, and actually get them lynched...
This is WIFOM. Just because you don't see a reason doesn't mean there is one. Digging something up like IB did could be him trying to gain major townie points if FoxShark ends up being the lynch. His non-comment when he posted the info is telling. Bussing scum can be a powerful tool for the scum to use to appear town. Clearing IB based on the FoxShark wagon is flawed and shouldn't happen.
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DM #18 and #44: The reasoning here seems logical and legitimate, and completely lacking the conviction of an early bus. Town points.
Foxlet #54: "And that knowledge shall forever be ingrained in my brain" sounds much more like a suck-up type attitude towards Void.
DJ #56: This post is pretty bad - basically trying to acknowledge and give credence to all the viewpoints re: Fox, while subtly deflecting attention away.
IB #82: My biggest problem with this post is that a rational townie wouldn't believe Foxlet to be lying about his knowledge (or lack thereof) concerning the miller role. Scum, on the other hand, might manufacture a reason to bus... However, I just don't trust IB's abilities enough - which means it's less of a sure thing. IB, would you consider yourself to be a player who buses frequently as scum? Do you have any evidence to back that up?
Foxlet #135: Difficult to really get any reads here. Fox basically passes the buck on both IB and Ahylis, which makes sense regardless of their alignments.
Reya #138: This post is bad. At this point Reya isn't voting anyone (having just unvoted IB) and calls out Foxlet (for a legitimately bad post, and right after Cyan does so) but without laying down a vote.
Reya #205: See, this is the reason why Reya's previous post was off. He's nice and aggressive with his accusations, he clearly has a quick trigger finger, he's willing to put his money where his mouth is. He votes IB twice, after all. That makes his previous post (#138 - see above) look so out of place.
Reya #209: And again, we see a good amount of hesitancy to analyze Foxlet too deeply, but willingness to look at IB and SS' alignments.
Foxlet #263: That SS is Foxlet's "main" target - especially given that Foxlet is so over-defensive - speaks volumes about SS' alignment.
DJ #288: This post itself is also pretty shifty. Kind of touches on the main points without commitment to any of them. Empty summary rather than analysis of the issues.
Reya #290: Extremely jumpy, which by itself isn't really significant - but once again makes the non-vote on Foxlet stand out.
Void #351: Void, what does "interesting about Fox" even mean?
Voxxicus #357: Are you a gimmick? Do you have mafia experience?
SF #367: This post makes me think people (read: Cyan) are absolutely off-base about Manders. Scum don't ask for confirmation on the scumminess of a bus target - they already know their target is scum. They want confirmation when they're unsure whether their target is a "good" one. Manders just shot to the top of my town pile.
SF #403: We see the same caution from SF re: Manders. If Manders were scum and SF was determined to bus her, he wouldn't need to acknowledge the validity of some of her arguments or hedge at all.
Reya #423: Reya has a little exchange with SF here, and it's the exact same as his previous interactions with Fox: while he's totally willing to lay down his vote on IB, Ahylis, etc., he dances around voting with SF. Furthermore, it's not like his vote was doing any real work at that point. This is the second time Reya calls Fox/SF scum and does not vote.
SF #447: Again, SF defending SS so hard when SS is under the gun suggests that SS is town.
Reya #484: This nice little bit of useless speculation masquerading as "helpful townie" is nicely lumped in there.
SF #521 and #522: The analysis of DJ and the result do not sync up. On one hand, DJ is so scummy that SF almost thinks he's a Jester (you have to be really, really ****ing scummy before that even comes into the equation) - yet SF is still voting MH? Does that make DJ scum - maybe. Perhaps SF is too inexperienced to bus, and is sticking with Manders which has two advantages (she is probably town, and he gets to hide behind Cyan).
SF #532: Again, who talks this way to the buddy they're (supposedly) busing? "Let's look at it from the perspective of you being town...blah blah blah." No. Scum bus scum with conviction because they know they're scum.
TIM #566: I actually forgot completely about this piece of analysis from the end of yesterday, but the long and short of it is that Reya is defending Manders on the basis of meta that suggests we don't really know either way. In short, Reya seems to know Manders' alignment.
AE #607: This post from AE is relatively suspect, as he does not address the SF wagon (which is at 6? votes here) but ends up hammering later.
Overall, I was a little bit disappointed with this re-read. Biggest issue is that SF's reads basically changed every single post, rarely held any conviction whatsoever, and are therefore almost worthless for analysis purposes. On the other hand, Manders, DM and SS all come off looking like solid town. DJ and IB are possibly scum, but Reya is a solid lock. Vote: Reya.
Quick question - is redirecter the same as a busdriver? Or is it a one-way thing.
If Joe is redirected to John, and John is targeted with a kill, does Joe die? Or is it only if Joe is targeted with a kill, John dies? Something said confused me, and it might be relevant.
Usually redirector is a one way thing everything that happens to one person is moved to the other person. Busdriver makes it go both ways.
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From my understanding, Reya's got the right of it. I declare two targets: a person to be redirected FROM, and redirected TO. Everything that would affect FROM affects TO instead.
So theoretically, any ability that would have targeted EP last night targeted AE instead. Obviously there wasn't a night kill or a vig or anything obvious that we would know about...all I know is that my ability resolved (wasn't blocked). I was not informed if it actually did anything or not.
I'm just going to leave this vote Vox here for a minute and go on a little rant.
I spent a while trying to figure out how Vox is trying to prove I'm scum to defend myself, but the fact is that he hasn't tried to prove anything. Just look at the thoughts he has posted (and harped on) as sticking points and the way he has supported them (the few he has attempted to). They're factually correct, but only technically and they make no effort to show what I'm trying to do as scum or even how townies act other than using this sort of hypocritical confirmation bias that starts with "EP is scum" and then goes on a windy path from there ending in the middle of nowhere. Just breaking the case down means leaves little to nothing for me to respond to the way the case is written while taking up a lot of space, and considering the charges I find it extremely disingenuous and the way he propagandized some issues makes me think there is an ulterior motive behind the case.
That said, I want to break this down and explain my vantage point:
1) Assertion that I have a lack of content in my posting
I don't like starting with this issue because it's not only the weakest point of Vox, it's also one of the issues that I find to be entirely hypocritical both in his posting today and his posting yesterday. Anyways, here's some of the quotes:
He also had a pretty high contentless post per post ratio, if you look back through the day. Maintaining a relatively steady thread presence, with bits of not actually saying anything.
That seems to be the sum of this part of the case.... and it's completely crap. Beyond complete crap it's impressively bad pulled from nowhere other than a vague "I reread Night 1 and came up with EP being scum after declaring he was scum Day 1".
There is only one response I can possibly give to this assertion: Prove. It.
In fact, Vox should not just prove it through a PBPA or quoting some examples, he needs to prove how my posting is different from the other players he are declaring town because he's using the same tactic to say people are and are not scum; that is, he is just tossing a sentence or two out there say they are town relying on one or zero posts to call people town. Even then, it's usually bragging about being right or about other players being right. This is not the guy to just leave and empty "he's not providing content" posts. This is a guy who has already said his RL issues prevented him from posting much and just assumes what is left was (apparently) messiah-like. I can show much more of this later, but for now I want to leave it as simply: prove it.
2) Started Silver suspicion, but waited for wagon to form to place my vote.
He mentioned the Silver suspicion first, but did not place a vote. He then voted after the wagon started to form (This is bad).
He avoided the fast-moving IB train, but once that stalled out, and people started to switch to Foxlet (who is now confirmed scum), his push on the alternate wagon looks terrible.
This is what I mean when I say "technically factual", because I would not deny any of this. He posted some indirect copy and paste vote counts to show his point, but when you look at the events they are extremely misleading and only giving a very narrow perspective on the situation. Since he's forcing me to do all the work to defend myself, let's get started.
@SilverSihhe: Ahylis has been fencesitting and not contributing anything but fencesitting. Furthermore, his play thus far is very different and much more cautious than in Stuff I Like Mafia, in which he was town.
IB's post was not such a great "gotcha" as people are treating it, but his response is bizarre. IB clearly has no idea what he's actually being accused of (as evidenced by the posts following people starting to vote for him), so to me he's actually guilty of mindlessly pressing forward in the game. There's really two things that could have happened: pushing whatever came across his lap, or simply didn't realize what he did was wrong in any fashion.
With the way the wagon sprung up it will be harder to get a read on what did happen, but I have to lean towards the first option based on the multiple attempts to point out "gotcha" posts with Foxlet and Reya. Very eager.
Ugh, I hate basing a wagon on something like this because it'll be impossible to get a better read than what's available right this second which is not great and the case is only supported by a slip. Frustrating.
I can back that up from what I've seen reading an ongoing game that Ahylis is participating in, although I haven't read or participated in the same completed games. I just wanted to hear you say a bit more -- thanks.
I'm not sure enough on my read of Ahylis to place a vote yet, however I will FoS Ahylis.
Ahylis, what are your current reads telling you? Give us some content to work with.
SilverSihhe is the one I'm most concerned about though. The pairing of players, the seemingly random defense of players coming under fire, the searching for a wagon to join but only dipping a toe in the pool... none of it points to good things.
This is the entire post where I gave my first amount of content this game followed shortly by a bigger post clarifying what I mean on every hot topic in the game, and it shows a few things. The first, is that I in no way avoided the IB wagon. I, in fact, stated a clear opinion about the IB wagon that rocketed away on just a couple lines and I expressed that I would rather go after another player setting off alarm bells. The crux of Vox's case is that I should have voted here for some reason. I dunno, again he doesn't really explain anything in his case just throws it out there.
So, should I always vote everything I voice an opinion? Is it required or was my point clear enough here? Obviously I committed to a stance even without a vote and there's no hint of fence sitting. So what is it? The vote itself proves your town? Because that's simply not true. At all. Also, is two votes a wagon?
And then there's the other side of this, the voting "once a wagon forms". Well, let's break that down. The first vote on Silver came on 8-15-2012 at 8:41am by void. The second on 8-15-2012 at 11:27am by TIM. Then I voted on 8-15-2012 at 2:44pm. three votes less than 12 hours apart. What is the common thread in these votes? Oh yes, a common development that three players agree on: Silver's responses to MY ****ING QUESITONS. Yes, that's right Vox is literally attacking me for following up on my case that other players reference in their votes. This goes beyond just trying to say I was shopping the field or waiting for an opportune time, this is attacking me for building a case and responding to it myself and other players following my lead against Silver. The timing of the votes are meaningless, because they ALL CAME FROM MY EFFORT IN SHOWING SILVER IS SCUM.
Then there is the cherry on top in this case, specifically focused on this quote from Vox:
He avoided the fast-moving IB train, but once that stalled out, and people started to switch to Foxlet (who is now confirmed scum), his push on the alternate wagon looks terrible.
This is an outright fabrication that I cannot find any evidence to.
IB was officially at L-2 by the votecount in post #118. Following this, IB claims BP. Then comes the Foxlet "wagon" - Cyan and IB directly barning Cyan. These two vote wagons are a real sticking point to Vox, aren't they? interest had not even waned on IB, the wagon was just stuck in the nosebleeds as people processed his claim and such. People were still questioning him.
There was no Reya wagon. At all.
As a bonus, see the confirmation bias showing up? "Fox was scum, so the people who didn't immediately vote Fox then were scum?" He's just trying to prove I'm scum and it's something to say.
Asks question that was already answered. Doesn't need to pay as much attention to the game as town do.
Asks SharkFinnigan if he replaced Foxlet.
Prove it. Again.
You provide nothing in this attack, except for a single example just showing how little this accusation is based on. I would challenge Vox to prove how closely he reread last night considering this is my question to SF:
Aside:
-MH makes a valid point on SS
--It could be in a scum mindset.
--However, I feel strongly that it comes from a town mindset.
You replaced Foxlet, right?
Obviously, I can look at the first post and tell who replaced who... so what is the point of this question? Oh yes, it is calling SF scum. Quite clearly as well to the point of pointing it out to Cyan later on:
If you think this stinks, check out the defense of SS - and who he replaced in for. Shark has pretty much cried town at every major wagon.
I'm sorry that I decided to be a little facetious in posting, but I feel the intent is clear as day. I had called Fox scum for various things, and I called SF scum for various things. This question was just connecting SF behavior and Fox's.
And there's no way you can spin the end of day sequence as looking good for EP at all. The late vote on the wagon, claiming that he has been 'creeping up there for a while', when he had barely mentioned Shark at all in previous posts reeks of scum hopping on the inevitable lynch.
So here's one of the two big selling points Vox has presented. The problem is that I pointed to both Fox and SF being scummy for most of the day. I called Fox oversensitive, I pointed out that her abundance of smilies for no purpose was trying to look harmless, I agreed with Cyan that she was focusing too much on herself when the pressure on her was non-existent. I pointed out that SF was called MH scum and town in the same both he voted for her, SF was defending people for no reason, and providing no explanation on reads. All of this is documented in my posts. All of it.
If Vox even tried putting a PBPA together, then he would have to edit my quotes heavily to miss them or just push a viewpoint that one only gets by forcing it in place (see the accusation of me not paying attention above). It's just not there whatsoever.
The statement about hating to wait for lynches also looks bad, which I commented on yesterday at the time. Especially considering the self-hammer to cut any further discussion shortly afterwards.
The other major sticking point for Vox, adn the reason he reread me last night and pushed so hard for me today - and the reason I think Vox is scum himself.
If you think someone is scum, you vote for them. If they reach the lynch threshold, then the day ends. Unless you are going to try and plan things openly going into the night, there is zero reason to wait or rush things.
Waiting until "we have all agreed to end the day" doesn't do anyone any good, and is an easy way to hide true intentions.
And boom goes the dynamite. I have never changed my opinion on this, and when you have another veteran this game (Cyan) who shares my opinion tells you it's a bad sticking point you'd think you'd listen.
But no. Vox in fact sees this as a reason to build an entire case against me no matter how badly it comes together. He spends the night finding reasons to attack me, then posts a short summary with no evidence claiming both:
Or go re-read the peoples' posts that I mention yourselves. Day one wasn't that long.
He clearly has no intention of providing this evidence because he has none. There's nothing in my posts that resembles the case he put together on me.
My current theory is that he forced this case not because he thought it was successful, but that he lurked through D1 and desperately needed content with a decent case against him posted by Silver and people seeing Silver as town after he started posting longer and more thought out posts. He started thinking this would be easy, then ran into issues while building a PBPA, and then posted the summary his did and present a vote count case to try adn show what he was saying to be fact when it's very misleading at best. I also think there's something very disturbing about Vox that's evident in his first post this game:
Obviously if there's another miller they should instantly counter-claim, but yeah.
Behavioral analysis, with maybe a late game vig if we are uncertain is probably the best route.
Vote: Foxlet while I'm at it.
Do you see the issue?
Vox voted Fox in the RVS, and then never unvoted her or SF the entirety of Day 1 and only called people town for no reason past that. IB was town, Silver was town, MH is probably not scum, etc. every major wagon was on a townie except Fox and anyone on those wagons is suspect and anyone not on Fox's ass from the start of Day 1 is scum.
Given the summary of his posts day 1 (there is only 10): 10: Immediately accepts the miller as town, RVS Fox. 15: Challenges TIM calling AE town, declares vigging the miller "dumb". 164: Avoiding prod. 229: Calls IB town on gut, calls Fox scum on gut - but claims that it's not because she appears scummy but because her posts lack a town mindset. The explanation of the mindset takes longer than explaining why he thinks IB is town and Fox is scum. 357/358: Avoiding prod. Says Fox and Silver are scum. Let me repeat: Says Fox and Silver are scum. 576: Avoiding prod. Says he deserves replacing (self-flagellation without acting on it is a sign it's not genuine). 617:I want to quote this specifically:
The vote was initially RVS, yes. But then the miller thing happened, and excessive fluffiness, and I decided I was perfectly okay with killing Foxlet today. This post should support the fact that it wasn't/isn't a RVS vote at this point. It just seemed stupid to unvote and re-vote.
I think IB is town. I think Silver is town.
I think Shark is scum, I think Manders... might be scum. I'm less sure on Manders, that implosion is kind of a null tell, but it's not like a vanilla claim does anything for me.
I think Cy's miller claim is legit, though I do understand he'll probably be policy vigged (which I sort of disagree with, but whatever).
I think that Ahlyis' survivor claim is legit. Willing to ignore for now in a similar manner to the miller claim, provided they both remain active and acting in the best interests of town.
I think Cyan is town.
I think Reya has a high chance of being scum, regardless of Manders' alignment.
Don't have strong opinions on anyone else not mentioned, will re-evaluate and analyse wagons after we get an alignment flip.
He reversed his reads on Silver with no explanation, mostly avoids Silver's case against him with a big hand-wavey "well you see here I knew I just got lucky and Fox was scum", advocates Cyouni being town without reason... and hell PROVIDES NOT EXPLAINATION OR EXAMPLES FOR ANYTHING HE HAS DONE.
This is what he is calling content worth keeping him posting in the game instead of replacing out like he mentioned. He then says he has no strong opinions on anyone else. SPECIFICALLY POINTING TO HIM READING THE GAME - and proving confirmation bias is the entirety of what his case against me is. 622: Says I'm scum for voicing an opinion that was /barned immediately by Cyan - but Cyan is of course town.
I know that Vox has provoked me, but the only reason I got so incensed is that the case was so bad. Looking at the structure of his attacks today and the way he's trying to use him being right about Fox to prove how correct he is today, I think he's scum trying to prove he's town with a big flashy case with no teeth and trying to PoE a limited pool of people that can be scum based on this post:
From my vote wagon, I saw Jobie now make 2 possible bandwagon votes. IB has made some too. Gricky seems fencesitting. Reya is hard pushing Ahlyis-lynch. Lynching surivivor-claims only occur when desperate and lack of consensus. Leave Survivor death to the vig. Something about Void feels off to me (I think his SS vote felt off to me).
I like kpaca's and ArchmageEternal's play thus far. Picking in just the right spots to get reactions.
I also want Cyouni vigged a lot more than I did yesterday. The combination of the miller claim (which was praised by SharkFinnigan), starting that rapid fast IB wagon, sitting on it all day after it was stalled out, and then the relatively late hop on Shark at day end makes me not want him alive much longer.
I also want Cyouni vigged a lot more than I did yesterday. The combination of the miller claim (which was praised by SharkFinnigan), starting that rapid fast IB wagon, sitting on it all day after it was stalled out, and then the relatively late hop on Shark at day end makes me not want him alive much longer.
For reasons stated earlier and SharkFinnigan's defense of Silver.
At the end fo the day I thought Silver was looking great until this. This is a massive cause for concern, because not only did SF defend Silver but Silver needlessly defended Fox early on:
To be fair, that is four months ago. While it is suspicious and more pressure would probably be a good thing, I don't think that it's damning enough to ride to its conclusion. After 5 pages I don't have enough of a read on anyone to place a vote, although I do have a few that are seeming town thusfar.
Foxlet, do you remember the circumstances of the quote that Baloth brought up? What can you tell us about them? It looks like you got confused with what Gricky was saying in that game, but there is definitely evidence that you have looked up a Miller before.
If Foxlet is lying about knowing what a Miller is, what is the significance of that? Just the inexperience card -> being underestimated and ignored? Or something more? It doesn't seem that Millers would be of particular interest to scum, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
I guess I'll lay off Ahyll for now since no one else wants to lynch the claimed survivor especially when not vigged. I really dont think IB is scum but I could go for SS. I'm going to go retread The IB case from yesterday.
Wait, what? this makes it sound like you think Ahlyis is a survivor.
His early game posts had very little of his own thoughts, and were mostly examples of situations and meta.
This gave me a vibe that he was just sitting back and watching, while being "helpful".
I was looking for any sort of reaction at all, maybe an OMGUS or something, but there wasn't any sort of reaction, just a "lol what" and ignored.
I got some reactions from some people that weren't cyan, but mostly I figured it was a failure.
Was lost on what was happening at that point, so I figured I'd do something random to see what would happen.
Cyan going to answer these?
Why not cyan?
What points of his caused you to reconsider?
Was it where voxx chose E_P as the scum member in SF's list over you?
You're right, EP. That defense of Foxlet is...alarming. Still, my biggest problem is that SF's only consistent, strong and reliable read was SS as town. That doesn't seem like a scumbuddy interaction, especially considering SF replaced in with SS under considerable pressure (and looked like the lynch for a while).
You're right, EP. That defense of Foxlet is...alarming. Still, my biggest problem is that SF's only consistent, strong and reliable read was SS as town. That doesn't seem like a scumbuddy interaction, especially considering SF replaced in with SS under considerable pressure (and looked like the lynch for a while).
The problem is that it can go either way, but Silver has been making great posts lately so I think we can agree there are bigger fish to fry anyways. SS has dropped below DJ, Reya, and Vox - and I've not looked into MH at all other than thinking her frustration was genuine.
At the end fo the day I thought Silver was looking great until this. This is a massive cause for concern, because not only did SF defend Silver but Silver needlessly defended Fox early on:
I'll post more tomorrow -- just going to quickly comment on this. I already mentioned during day 1, several times I think, that I was defending random people because I was trying to get a handle on the game, and slow it down to a speed that I could more easily follow.
From my post #166:
Quote from Me, 166 »
I haven't placed a vote yet. If I was forced to vote someone, it would probably either be Baloth or Foxlet at this point. Baloth's claim does read weak, as others have pointed out, and I still don't like his defeatist attitude. If town, he might be legitimately annoyed that he will get lynched this early, and I understand that. But his claim also reads of "they got me already?" The two are closely connected, but at this point I'm actually leaning towards the latter. Foxlet's posts so far feel pretty forced, especially the smiley overload in 135. Her other posts have used emoticons a fair amount, but not to that level. I really don't like 135. I haven't voted yet because I'm uncertain enough of what Baloth's claim means, and because frankly we don't have a lot of content from Foxlet yet that doesn't pertain to the miller issue.
To wit: Foxlet, what are your reads so far this game, especially of the Baloth wagon? Content please!
I started off the game with the idea in mind that I would at least attempt to try every single person in this game fairly and reasonably, with the assumption that they are town (I don't want to make a mistake). As the game has progressed and I've gotten reads on people, I've formed opinions, and so on, as is likely only natural. You can accurately say that I defended most everyone early on in day 1 until I started getting a feel for things.
I might also be making a poor logical jump here, and if I am, please correct me: if Shark was defending me so hard because he knew I was town as only scum would, why then would the same not be said for me, were I scum? I don't have time to do a reread and pull all of the relevant quotes for you, but from my memory, I gave Fox the benefit of the doubt early, decided she felt scummy after emoticon-overload, and maintained that opinion of her throughout, noting her in my initial read list as:
Quote from Me, 328 »
Foxlet/SharkFinnigan - I had Foxlet as leaning scum, but that's subject to change depending on Shark's content.
Shark started off sounding better, but quickly devolved from there. If I had more time I would be able to pull up evidence from that, too. Maybe I'm being oversensitive again like I was all of day 1, but I don't see this as being as troubling from my perspective as what you all seem to =/
I'll also note here that Void has literally been tunnel-visioning me since piss early on day 1 for reasons I have yet to figure out. My attempts at being even-tempered aside, Void's really starting to annoy me with his constant twisting of my language and insinuations. I've had just about enough of being his chew-toy.
I think this is a solid case on Reya, more people should look at what TIM's pointing out here.
Agreed. I'm finding my opinion of TIM warming considerably since I attempted to make a case on him. He's provided more content, which has helped. His posts still read a little shifty to me, but I think that's more because of the style with which he writes than anything. I am fine with any and all action on either Voxx or Reya at this point.
How could you vote Voxc he pretty much started the wagon on SF?
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EP's post there is a completely absurd overreaction. It is far too much work to just ultimately say 'Voxx is scum, not me!' It reads like he just wanted to WIFOM Voxx, but also wanted to hide the fact that he was doing so.
The idea that Voxx, as scum, is putting himself out there so much, compared to how he acted yesterday, is laughable. And even though I initially thought he was misguided today, it was still very apparent that he had good intentions. But seeing EP's response, I think he might have been on the right track all along. Unvote, Vote EP
Also, something else needs to be worked out. I tried to target EP with an action last night. I was told that I failed to do so. I didn't give this much thought at first, though I probably should have. When SS informed us that he successfully bus-drove EP and AE, it made me curious. I can't logically figure out how that combination of actions/results works out. If EP just can't be targeted, how did SS target him? And if anyone other than IB is untargetable, if they are town, why didn't they say as much yesterday? But for that matter, if AE is untargetable(and I was redirected to him by SS, which is why my ability failed), how could SS have bus-drove them in the first place?
Especially when your post is ultimately just OMGUS. It reeks of over-reaction. I mean come on. There is no way that you can honestly say that you think Voxx is scum. The idea that he would half-lurk all day yesterday, and come out today(as scum) guns blazing against someone largely regarded as town is ridiculous. The only way Voxx is scum is if you are BOTH scum and this is just a 'oh **** our godfather died on D1 we need to gain some traction by having 2 of us attack each other and hope that one of us comes out looking super pro-town from it' ploy.
I don't think so. At first I had the same thought you did, but after looking through his case there's no way he reread last night and came to the conclusions he came to. At all.
Gonna get the important part out of the way first:
Vote Emo Pinata
His reaction to Vox's case is a classic "I'm scum but your reasons suck" response. Scum are more likely to get super annoyed at terrible reasons than town (at least, in the way E_P is). For a town, if someone makes a terrible case on you, it just strikes you as ridiculous. For a scum, it can be infuriating -- nobody wants to lose to logic that was totally wrong and dumb, after all. Plus, there's the insecurity that hey, maybe I did misplay there. Yeah, townies get annoyed when they're being wagoned, but it's more in a "you're all idiots" kind of way, which isn't what E_P is showing here.
He's clearly annoyed at Vox, which doesn't really mesh with his conviction that Vox is scum. If he thinks Vox is just twisting things/making **** up, then why is he so mad? It's just a scum tactic after all. Town don't get annoyed at scum (who are just doing their job after all), they get annoyed at town for being stupid.
--
I reread E_P after this, and there's a couple other things that bother me. Expect a longer post from me talking about generally less important stuff tonight (either about E_P or otherwise). F'realz this time.
Gonna get the important part out of the way first:
Vote Emo Pinata
His reaction to Vox's case is a classic "I'm scum but your reasons suck" response. Scum are more likely to get super annoyed at terrible reasons than town (at least, in the way E_P is). For a town, if someone makes a terrible case on you, it just strikes you as ridiculous. For a scum, it can be infuriating -- nobody wants to lose to logic that was totally wrong and dumb, after all. Plus, there's the insecurity that hey, maybe I did misplay there. Yeah, townies get annoyed when they're being wagoned, but it's more in a "you're all idiots" kind of way, which isn't what E_P is showing here.
He's clearly annoyed at Vox, which doesn't really mesh with his conviction that Vox is scum. If he thinks Vox is just twisting things/making **** up, then why is he so mad? It's just a scum tactic after all. Town don't get annoyed at scum (who are just doing their job after all), they get annoyed at town for being stupid.
--
I reread E_P after this, and there's a couple other things that bother me. Expect a longer post from me talking about generally less important stuff tonight (either about E_P or otherwise). F'realz this time.
"A townie wouldn't get annoyed at scum because they're just doing their job"? Really?
Cyan is at least simplifying in a way that I could see his point, you are making no sense. To say I was responding emotionally and provided a structured, well evidenced response and case - at the very least I would have already made a cathartic document and felt better and more reasonable by the time I would submit it and not submitted it.
I think you are a survivor.
"A townie wouldn't get annoyed at scum because they're just doing their job"? Really?
Cyan is at least simplifying in a way that I could see his point, you are making no sense. To say I was responding emotionally and provided a structured, well evidenced response and case - at the very least I would have already made a cathartic document and felt better and more reasonable by the time I would submit it and not submitted it.
I believe that this is called 'grasping at straws'.
I do. Anyone else? Couldn't get anything out of me so you then turn and fish the town?
unvote vote cyan
I am staying far away from this Emo wagon. I encourage others to do the same.
I lol'ed.
Seriously though. I tried to target EP with an ability that 'failed'. An ability that apparently should have been redirected to you. If I had been RBed, I would expect the Mod to indicate this, not to just say 'your ability failed'. There is already one person that claimed to be untargetable. It is unlikely that the town has 2 untargetables.
Something is amiss here. Clearly.
This vote is an awfully knee-jerk reaction on your part, also.
Seriously though. I tried to target EP with an ability that 'failed'. An ability that apparently should have been redirected to you. If I had been RBed, I would expect the Mod to indicate this, not to just say 'your ability failed'. There is already one person that claimed to be untargetable. It is unlikely that the town has 2 untargetables.
Something is amiss here. Clearly.
This vote is an awfully knee-jerk reaction on your part, also.
I have had a strong town read on EP all game, and, again, I haven't like AE's posts this game. While AE isn't at the top of my list, people that are at the top of my list are likely to get lynched anyway. So I redirected from EP -> AE, so that if scum tried to NK someone (I think) strongly town, he would be protected. I don't know if the ability actually did anything, although it did resolve.
Are you paying attention at all, Cyan? Not meant as ad hom...but seriously. You seem really spaced out to me.
@EP: No, I'm not glossing it over. I understand exactly what DM is talking about, and believe that he has exactly nailed what was going through your head at the time. When you are scum, and someone correctly identifies you as scum, it is frustrating. When you perceive their reasoning as terrible, but know that they are 'on to you' anyway it is infuriating. This is definitely something that you appear to be guilty of here. I mean like..you start out your post putting your vote on Voxx, but ultimately it just comes down to OMGUS. This is simply not the type of behavior I would expect from you as town.
@SS: I was just too lazy to go find your previous answer. Anyway. That makes sense. ++ town points for you.
I'm getting there. Some of Cyan's posts today have been very "off". I'll need to take a better look at both Cyan and Emo before deciding where to vote, but both are looking like fine candidates for an in depth re-read.
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If IB comes up scum heres his buddy.
Reya was on IB then nothing till Ahylis. Have to go back and see how these votes and unvotes transpired.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Amazing logic there.
Oh? Let's see here.
Waffle #1.
Absolutely no opinion, even when it's stating that Foxlet lied. Waffle #2.
Waffle #3.
Waffle #4. Note how there's absolutely no opinion on Fox's alignment.
And right after that, he claims that he thought that Foxlet was scummy all game...after more than enough people have expressed that they think Foxlet's scummy.
Vote infectiousbaloth
They hate us cause they ain't us.
You do realize that the SK thing was directed at IB, right?
Of course something is going to turn up. Any time sufficient pressure is applied in this game, SOMETHING will turn up. The question is whether it's what we're looking for or not. Stop trying to twist what I'm saying and make it look sinister. It's reflecting poorly on you.
I'll reiterate that I knew in my gut that there were scum on Manders' wagon. Relevant bit:
I pointed this out before TIM started the wagon on Shark!. I would have been perfectly fine pursuing any of these options, however since the wagon started on Shark, that's where events ended up. I don't know where you're seeing scum in this, but I will say this: Stop tunnel-visioning me. I don't know what I did that I offend you so much by existing, but screw off. I've done everything I can to prove myself, which maybe isn't the best way to go about things for the future, but that's where I'm at now. Maybe you should focus on actually hunting scum for once rather than trying to make me into one.
You do realize that I'm responsible for getting him to post his reads, right? Also RE@TIM: I think that his reads post is valid and contains interesting information. At that point in his wagon, I don't think that Shark was far enough along to actually be worried...given the fluidity of the wagons so far in this game. He probably expected that he could get off the hook. Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but I don't think he had yet entered pure WIFOM territory. That's just me, though.
I have had a strong town read on EP all game, and, again, I haven't like AE's posts this game. While AE isn't at the top of my list, people that are at the top of my list are likely to get lynched anyway. So I redirected from EP -> AE, so that if scum tried to NK someone (I think) strongly town, he would be protected. I don't know if the ability actually did anything, although it did resolve.
Anyone else confused by why Kpaca was nightkilled? I can't imagine he was vigged with a miller and a survivor...but Kpaca doesn't really make sense to NK from a mafia perspective either. Due to RL, he'd barely done anything this game. As time allows, I'll go back and look at Kpaca's posts....maybe scum were afraid of some line of reasoning he was adopting.
I just noticed how little jobie has posted could we perhaps get a prod on him?
Also @ Vox why do you have void at leaning scum?
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They were. Let me show you...
That says it all. They wanted to break us up. Powerful tool working here.
Unless they planned it. Don't just brush this off.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
That's exactly WHY he was killed (just my belief, I don't have inside knowledge. ), because his death gives us so very little to work with. When Mafia kills one of the lurkers, it gives Town much less to work with.
Thank you for answering.
First off, can you provide quotes and evidence for why Cyan had very few original thoughts? I find this about Cyan very hard to believe.
Second, I'm somewhat disturbed that you were looking for any reaction at all. When town play a gambit like yours, they are usually fishing for a specific response, one that scum are more prone to. When scum play a gambit, they bait any response they can get so they can call it scummy. Scum gambits don't fish for a specific response, they just fish for any reason to call a townie scum. That's what I really really don't like about your answers.
Finally, the fact that you ignored other responses to focus solely on Cyan is strange to me. I can't figure out if it's a scum tell, because part of me says you would/could bait any of those reactions and paint a town scum, but the other part of me says that maybe you wanted Cyan dead specifically.
All in all, I'm leaning scum on you.
This is WIFOM. Just because you don't see a reason doesn't mean there is one. Digging something up like IB did could be him trying to gain major townie points if FoxShark ends up being the lynch. His non-comment when he posted the info is telling. Bussing scum can be a powerful tool for the scum to use to appear town. Clearing IB based on the FoxShark wagon is flawed and shouldn't happen.
Foxlet #54: "And that knowledge shall forever be ingrained in my brain" sounds much more like a suck-up type attitude towards Void.
DJ #56: This post is pretty bad - basically trying to acknowledge and give credence to all the viewpoints re: Fox, while subtly deflecting attention away.
IB #82: My biggest problem with this post is that a rational townie wouldn't believe Foxlet to be lying about his knowledge (or lack thereof) concerning the miller role. Scum, on the other hand, might manufacture a reason to bus... However, I just don't trust IB's abilities enough - which means it's less of a sure thing. IB, would you consider yourself to be a player who buses frequently as scum? Do you have any evidence to back that up?
Foxlet #135: Difficult to really get any reads here. Fox basically passes the buck on both IB and Ahylis, which makes sense regardless of their alignments.
Reya #138: This post is bad. At this point Reya isn't voting anyone (having just unvoted IB) and calls out Foxlet (for a legitimately bad post, and right after Cyan does so) but without laying down a vote.
Jobie #151: Uh-oh.
Reya #205: See, this is the reason why Reya's previous post was off. He's nice and aggressive with his accusations, he clearly has a quick trigger finger, he's willing to put his money where his mouth is. He votes IB twice, after all. That makes his previous post (#138 - see above) look so out of place.
Reya #209: And again, we see a good amount of hesitancy to analyze Foxlet too deeply, but willingness to look at IB and SS' alignments.
Foxlet #263: That SS is Foxlet's "main" target - especially given that Foxlet is so over-defensive - speaks volumes about SS' alignment.
DJ #288: This post itself is also pretty shifty. Kind of touches on the main points without commitment to any of them. Empty summary rather than analysis of the issues.
Reya #290: Extremely jumpy, which by itself isn't really significant - but once again makes the non-vote on Foxlet stand out.
Void #351: Void, what does "interesting about Fox" even mean?
Voxxicus #357: Are you a gimmick? Do you have mafia experience?
SF #367: This post makes me think people (read: Cyan) are absolutely off-base about Manders. Scum don't ask for confirmation on the scumminess of a bus target - they already know their target is scum. They want confirmation when they're unsure whether their target is a "good" one. Manders just shot to the top of my town pile.
SF #403: We see the same caution from SF re: Manders. If Manders were scum and SF was determined to bus her, he wouldn't need to acknowledge the validity of some of her arguments or hedge at all.
Reya #423: Reya has a little exchange with SF here, and it's the exact same as his previous interactions with Fox: while he's totally willing to lay down his vote on IB, Ahylis, etc., he dances around voting with SF. Furthermore, it's not like his vote was doing any real work at that point. This is the second time Reya calls Fox/SF scum and does not vote.
SF #447: Again, SF defending SS so hard when SS is under the gun suggests that SS is town.
Reya #484: This nice little bit of useless speculation masquerading as "helpful townie" is nicely lumped in there.
SF #521 and #522: The analysis of DJ and the result do not sync up. On one hand, DJ is so scummy that SF almost thinks he's a Jester (you have to be really, really ****ing scummy before that even comes into the equation) - yet SF is still voting MH? Does that make DJ scum - maybe. Perhaps SF is too inexperienced to bus, and is sticking with Manders which has two advantages (she is probably town, and he gets to hide behind Cyan).
SF #532: Again, who talks this way to the buddy they're (supposedly) busing? "Let's look at it from the perspective of you being town...blah blah blah." No. Scum bus scum with conviction because they know they're scum.
TIM #566: I actually forgot completely about this piece of analysis from the end of yesterday, but the long and short of it is that Reya is defending Manders on the basis of meta that suggests we don't really know either way. In short, Reya seems to know Manders' alignment.
AE #607: This post from AE is relatively suspect, as he does not address the SF wagon (which is at 6? votes here) but ends up hammering later.
Overall, I was a little bit disappointed with this re-read. Biggest issue is that SF's reads basically changed every single post, rarely held any conviction whatsoever, and are therefore almost worthless for analysis purposes. On the other hand, Manders, DM and SS all come off looking like solid town. DJ and IB are possibly scum, but Reya is a solid lock. Vote: Reya.
If Joe is redirected to John, and John is targeted with a kill, does Joe die? Or is it only if Joe is targeted with a kill, John dies? Something said confused me, and it might be relevant.
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I thought there was a contradiction somewhere, but there's not.
All is well.
Still want Emo_Pinata to die for being scum.
Still think people trying to lynch Silver look horrible, both yesterday and today.
I still think IB is town.
I could maybe get behind a Reya lynch, but there are other people I dislike more.
So theoretically, any ability that would have targeted EP last night targeted AE instead. Obviously there wasn't a night kill or a vig or anything obvious that we would know about...all I know is that my ability resolved (wasn't blocked). I was not informed if it actually did anything or not.
My first thought was to just vote you. My second was to bite on the line you have out there. Then I thought.... No, nothing noteworthy.
I didn't hammer. Unless your counting me putting him at L-1 giving him the chance to hammer essentially the hammer.
Man we're playing a different game here.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I spent a while trying to figure out how Vox is trying to prove I'm scum to defend myself, but the fact is that he hasn't tried to prove anything. Just look at the thoughts he has posted (and harped on) as sticking points and the way he has supported them (the few he has attempted to). They're factually correct, but only technically and they make no effort to show what I'm trying to do as scum or even how townies act other than using this sort of hypocritical confirmation bias that starts with "EP is scum" and then goes on a windy path from there ending in the middle of nowhere. Just breaking the case down means leaves little to nothing for me to respond to the way the case is written while taking up a lot of space, and considering the charges I find it extremely disingenuous and the way he propagandized some issues makes me think there is an ulterior motive behind the case.
That said, I want to break this down and explain my vantage point:
1) Assertion that I have a lack of content in my posting
I don't like starting with this issue because it's not only the weakest point of Vox, it's also one of the issues that I find to be entirely hypocritical both in his posting today and his posting yesterday. Anyways, here's some of the quotes:
That seems to be the sum of this part of the case.... and it's completely crap. Beyond complete crap it's impressively bad pulled from nowhere other than a vague "I reread Night 1 and came up with EP being scum after declaring he was scum Day 1".
There is only one response I can possibly give to this assertion: Prove. It.
In fact, Vox should not just prove it through a PBPA or quoting some examples, he needs to prove how my posting is different from the other players he are declaring town because he's using the same tactic to say people are and are not scum; that is, he is just tossing a sentence or two out there say they are town relying on one or zero posts to call people town. Even then, it's usually bragging about being right or about other players being right. This is not the guy to just leave and empty "he's not providing content" posts. This is a guy who has already said his RL issues prevented him from posting much and just assumes what is left was (apparently) messiah-like. I can show much more of this later, but for now I want to leave it as simply: prove it.
2) Started Silver suspicion, but waited for wagon to form to place my vote.
The quotes:
This is what I mean when I say "technically factual", because I would not deny any of this. He posted some indirect copy and paste vote counts to show his point, but when you look at the events they are extremely misleading and only giving a very narrow perspective on the situation. Since he's forcing me to do all the work to defend myself, let's get started.
This is the entire post where I gave my first amount of content this game followed shortly by a bigger post clarifying what I mean on every hot topic in the game, and it shows a few things. The first, is that I in no way avoided the IB wagon. I, in fact, stated a clear opinion about the IB wagon that rocketed away on just a couple lines and I expressed that I would rather go after another player setting off alarm bells. The crux of Vox's case is that I should have voted here for some reason. I dunno, again he doesn't really explain anything in his case just throws it out there.
So, should I always vote everything I voice an opinion? Is it required or was my point clear enough here? Obviously I committed to a stance even without a vote and there's no hint of fence sitting. So what is it? The vote itself proves your town? Because that's simply not true. At all. Also, is two votes a wagon?
And then there's the other side of this, the voting "once a wagon forms". Well, let's break that down. The first vote on Silver came on 8-15-2012 at 8:41am by void. The second on 8-15-2012 at 11:27am by TIM. Then I voted on 8-15-2012 at 2:44pm. three votes less than 12 hours apart. What is the common thread in these votes? Oh yes, a common development that three players agree on: Silver's responses to MY ****ING QUESITONS. Yes, that's right Vox is literally attacking me for following up on my case that other players reference in their votes. This goes beyond just trying to say I was shopping the field or waiting for an opportune time, this is attacking me for building a case and responding to it myself and other players following my lead against Silver. The timing of the votes are meaningless, because they ALL CAME FROM MY EFFORT IN SHOWING SILVER IS SCUM.
Then there is the cherry on top in this case, specifically focused on this quote from Vox:
This is an outright fabrication that I cannot find any evidence to.
IB was officially at L-2 by the votecount in post #118. Following this, IB claims BP. Then comes the Foxlet "wagon" - Cyan and IB directly barning Cyan. These two vote wagons are a real sticking point to Vox, aren't they? interest had not even waned on IB, the wagon was just stuck in the nosebleeds as people processed his claim and such. People were still questioning him.
There was no Reya wagon. At all.
As a bonus, see the confirmation bias showing up? "Fox was scum, so the people who didn't immediately vote Fox then were scum?" He's just trying to prove I'm scum and it's something to say.
3) Not paying attention
This one is also terrible:
Prove it. Again.
You provide nothing in this attack, except for a single example just showing how little this accusation is based on. I would challenge Vox to prove how closely he reread last night considering this is my question to SF:
Obviously, I can look at the first post and tell who replaced who... so what is the point of this question? Oh yes, it is calling SF scum. Quite clearly as well to the point of pointing it out to Cyan later on:
I'm sorry that I decided to be a little facetious in posting, but I feel the intent is clear as day. I had called Fox scum for various things, and I called SF scum for various things. This question was just connecting SF behavior and Fox's.
4) fearmongering
Quote:
Vox is continuing to used charged language with absolutely no support. I will now point out the entirety of my "fearmongering":
That's it. So Vox, what did I say to create panic? That g_d was being lazy by not having the deadline in any vote count or on the first few posts?
5) Terrible vote on SF
Quote:
So here's one of the two big selling points Vox has presented. The problem is that I pointed to both Fox and SF being scummy for most of the day. I called Fox oversensitive, I pointed out that her abundance of smilies for no purpose was trying to look harmless, I agreed with Cyan that she was focusing too much on herself when the pressure on her was non-existent. I pointed out that SF was called MH scum and town in the same both he voted for her, SF was defending people for no reason, and providing no explanation on reads. All of this is documented in my posts. All of it.
If Vox even tried putting a PBPA together, then he would have to edit my quotes heavily to miss them or just push a viewpoint that one only gets by forcing it in place (see the accusation of me not paying attention above). It's just not there whatsoever.
6) Not wanting to wait for the lynch
Quote:
The other major sticking point for Vox, adn the reason he reread me last night and pushed so hard for me today - and the reason I think Vox is scum himself.
OK, so let me dismiss his case in one quote:
And boom goes the dynamite. I have never changed my opinion on this, and when you have another veteran this game (Cyan) who shares my opinion tells you it's a bad sticking point you'd think you'd listen.
But no. Vox in fact sees this as a reason to build an entire case against me no matter how badly it comes together. He spends the night finding reasons to attack me, then posts a short summary with no evidence claiming both:
and
He clearly has no intention of providing this evidence because he has none. There's nothing in my posts that resembles the case he put together on me.
My current theory is that he forced this case not because he thought it was successful, but that he lurked through D1 and desperately needed content with a decent case against him posted by Silver and people seeing Silver as town after he started posting longer and more thought out posts. He started thinking this would be easy, then ran into issues while building a PBPA, and then posted the summary his did and present a vote count case to try adn show what he was saying to be fact when it's very misleading at best. I also think there's something very disturbing about Vox that's evident in his first post this game:
Do you see the issue?
Vox voted Fox in the RVS, and then never unvoted her or SF the entirety of Day 1 and only called people town for no reason past that. IB was town, Silver was town, MH is probably not scum, etc. every major wagon was on a townie except Fox and anyone on those wagons is suspect and anyone not on Fox's ass from the start of Day 1 is scum.
Given the summary of his posts day 1 (there is only 10):
10: Immediately accepts the miller as town, RVS Fox.
15: Challenges TIM calling AE town, declares vigging the miller "dumb".
164: Avoiding prod.
229: Calls IB town on gut, calls Fox scum on gut - but claims that it's not because she appears scummy but because her posts lack a town mindset. The explanation of the mindset takes longer than explaining why he thinks IB is town and Fox is scum.
357/358: Avoiding prod. Says Fox and Silver are scum. Let me repeat: Says Fox and Silver are scum.
576: Avoiding prod. Says he deserves replacing (self-flagellation without acting on it is a sign it's not genuine).
617:I want to quote this specifically:
He reversed his reads on Silver with no explanation, mostly avoids Silver's case against him with a big hand-wavey "well you see here I knew I just got lucky and Fox was scum", advocates Cyouni being town without reason... and hell PROVIDES NOT EXPLAINATION OR EXAMPLES FOR ANYTHING HE HAS DONE.
This is what he is calling content worth keeping him posting in the game instead of replacing out like he mentioned. He then says he has no strong opinions on anyone else. SPECIFICALLY POINTING TO HIM READING THE GAME - and proving confirmation bias is the entirety of what his case against me is.
622: Says I'm scum for voicing an opinion that was /barned immediately by Cyan - but Cyan is of course town.
I know that Vox has provoked me, but the only reason I got so incensed is that the case was so bad. Looking at the structure of his attacks today and the way he's trying to use him being right about Fox to prove how correct he is today, I think he's scum trying to prove he's town with a big flashy case with no teeth and trying to PoE a limited pool of people that can be scum based on this post:
and turning it into this list:
Trying to use it as justification they could be scum:
with no explaination as to what those "other things" are.
Oh, and for the "he's making it up as he goes"/"he's forcing cases where there is nothing to make himself look good" coup de grace:
So that means:
went to:
because of:
This is so airtight, and not in the sexy way.
Wait, what? this makes it sound like you think Ahlyis is a survivor.
I need to look this up, but do you think MH was faking it yesterday?
Wow. You need to start posting evidence. Now.
Ditto.
That's a stretch...
I think this is a solid case on Reya, more people should look at what TIM's pointing out here.
I'll post more tomorrow -- just going to quickly comment on this. I already mentioned during day 1, several times I think, that I was defending random people because I was trying to get a handle on the game, and slow it down to a speed that I could more easily follow.
From my post #166:
I started off the game with the idea in mind that I would at least attempt to try every single person in this game fairly and reasonably, with the assumption that they are town (I don't want to make a mistake). As the game has progressed and I've gotten reads on people, I've formed opinions, and so on, as is likely only natural. You can accurately say that I defended most everyone early on in day 1 until I started getting a feel for things.
I might also be making a poor logical jump here, and if I am, please correct me: if Shark was defending me so hard because he knew I was town as only scum would, why then would the same not be said for me, were I scum? I don't have time to do a reread and pull all of the relevant quotes for you, but from my memory, I gave Fox the benefit of the doubt early, decided she felt scummy after emoticon-overload, and maintained that opinion of her throughout, noting her in my initial read list as:
Shark started off sounding better, but quickly devolved from there. If I had more time I would be able to pull up evidence from that, too. Maybe I'm being oversensitive again like I was all of day 1, but I don't see this as being as troubling from my perspective as what you all seem to =/
I'll also note here that Void has literally been tunnel-visioning me since piss early on day 1 for reasons I have yet to figure out. My attempts at being even-tempered aside, Void's really starting to annoy me with his constant twisting of my language and insinuations. I've had just about enough of being his chew-toy.
Agreed. I'm finding my opinion of TIM warming considerably since I attempted to make a case on him. He's provided more content, which has helped. His posts still read a little shifty to me, but I think that's more because of the style with which he writes than anything. I am fine with any and all action on either Voxx or Reya at this point.
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That's really funny... except for the part where:
I was V/LA for that entire wagon, so LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL at that presumption.
But seriously, you leave Manders out of the "pretty likely scum" category?
Vote: Manders with IB and Voxx as next on my Top 3. I'm actually more on the fence about Voxx than the other two because:
More reasoning to come tomorrow. Post-PAX sleep is imminent and required.
EWP (because I may not have read the last two posts on the page): LOL @Reya saying Voxx cant be scum for "starting the SF wagon". /barn TIM.
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The idea that Voxx, as scum, is putting himself out there so much, compared to how he acted yesterday, is laughable. And even though I initially thought he was misguided today, it was still very apparent that he had good intentions. But seeing EP's response, I think he might have been on the right track all along. Unvote, Vote EP
Also, something else needs to be worked out. I tried to target EP with an action last night. I was told that I failed to do so. I didn't give this much thought at first, though I probably should have. When SS informed us that he successfully bus-drove EP and AE, it made me curious. I can't logically figure out how that combination of actions/results works out. If EP just can't be targeted, how did SS target him? And if anyone other than IB is untargetable, if they are town, why didn't they say as much yesterday? But for that matter, if AE is untargetable(and I was redirected to him by SS, which is why my ability failed), how could SS have bus-drove them in the first place?
Especially when your post is ultimately just OMGUS. It reeks of over-reaction. I mean come on. There is no way that you can honestly say that you think Voxx is scum. The idea that he would half-lurk all day yesterday, and come out today(as scum) guns blazing against someone largely regarded as town is ridiculous. The only way Voxx is scum is if you are BOTH scum and this is just a 'oh **** our godfather died on D1 we need to gain some traction by having 2 of us attack each other and hope that one of us comes out looking super pro-town from it' ploy.
And you don't?
What do you think I am then?
Vote Emo Pinata
His reaction to Vox's case is a classic "I'm scum but your reasons suck" response. Scum are more likely to get super annoyed at terrible reasons than town (at least, in the way E_P is). For a town, if someone makes a terrible case on you, it just strikes you as ridiculous. For a scum, it can be infuriating -- nobody wants to lose to logic that was totally wrong and dumb, after all. Plus, there's the insecurity that hey, maybe I did misplay there. Yeah, townies get annoyed when they're being wagoned, but it's more in a "you're all idiots" kind of way, which isn't what E_P is showing here.
He's clearly annoyed at Vox, which doesn't really mesh with his conviction that Vox is scum. If he thinks Vox is just twisting things/making **** up, then why is he so mad? It's just a scum tactic after all. Town don't get annoyed at scum (who are just doing their job after all), they get annoyed at town for being stupid.
--
I reread E_P after this, and there's a couple other things that bother me. Expect a longer post from me talking about generally less important stuff tonight (either about E_P or otherwise). F'realz this time.
Seconded. Especially the point that Dancing brings up.
I think you are a survivor.
"A townie wouldn't get annoyed at scum because they're just doing their job"? Really?
Cyan is at least simplifying in a way that I could see his point, you are making no sense. To say I was responding emotionally and provided a structured, well evidenced response and case - at the very least I would have already made a cathartic document and felt better and more reasonable by the time I would submit it and not submitted it.
Um, okay. Then I don't understand why you posted the piece I quoted earlier. What was the point of it?
I do. Anyone else? Couldn't get anything out of me so you then turn and fish the town?
unvote vote cyan
I am staying far away from this Emo wagon. I encourage others to do the same.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I believe that this is called 'grasping at straws'.
I lol'ed.
Seriously though. I tried to target EP with an ability that 'failed'. An ability that apparently should have been redirected to you. If I had been RBed, I would expect the Mod to indicate this, not to just say 'your ability failed'. There is already one person that claimed to be untargetable. It is unlikely that the town has 2 untargetables.
Something is amiss here. Clearly.
This vote is an awfully knee-jerk reaction on your part, also.
I knew you would. Which just shows your smug scum mindset and why you do not fear going fishing.
Yeah who?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Yeah, you're not even paying attention to anything I say, you're just glossing over things in order to fit your generalization.
I'm not untargetable.
Well, disregard all of that curiosity/speculation then.
Somewhat relatedly...
@SS: Why did you choose to target EP and AE anyway?
Are you paying attention at all, Cyan? Not meant as ad hom...but seriously. You seem really spaced out to me.
@EP: No, I'm not glossing it over. I understand exactly what DM is talking about, and believe that he has exactly nailed what was going through your head at the time. When you are scum, and someone correctly identifies you as scum, it is frustrating. When you perceive their reasoning as terrible, but know that they are 'on to you' anyway it is infuriating. This is definitely something that you appear to be guilty of here. I mean like..you start out your post putting your vote on Voxx, but ultimately it just comes down to OMGUS. This is simply not the type of behavior I would expect from you as town.
@SS: I was just too lazy to go find your previous answer. Anyway. That makes sense. ++ town points for you.
I'm getting there. Some of Cyan's posts today have been very "off". I'll need to take a better look at both Cyan and Emo before deciding where to vote, but both are looking like fine candidates for an in depth re-read.