Yeah, there's more I can add at some point, but the troubling thing for me is that Mr. WoD would prefer to have my reasoning served up to him on a silver platter and spoon-fed before he'll consider listening to it. A townie ought to be curious for his own sake: and not launching a preemptive discrediting attack.
Scum would still have to kill each of them individualy or once after each day.
at 3 vs. 3 the scum control the lynch, so they will not ever lynch one of their own, assuming reasonable play. Thus there is no need to play it out.
Other things later.
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And, that post alone wasn't what makes him Scum, if that's what you meant.
So, you do consider it a scum tell?
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Yeah, there's more I can add at some point, but the troubling thing for me is that Mr. WoD would prefer to have my reasoning served up to him on a silver platter and spoon-fed before he'll consider listening to it. A townie ought to be curious for his own sake: and not launching a preemptive discrediting attack.
It wasn't really intended like that.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just a little sick of you getting away with derailing or creating wagons based on one-line posts, and would like to see some substance.
The case on AI is solid, I've been working on it for some time, and now you come in and say he's town, with no evidence of analysis to back this up whatsoever. Normally people would ignore posts like that, but as RafK and DYH say, the pattern weaves around you. I reckon DV's unvote will only be the first of many.
So yeah, that does annoy me just a little bit. I want AI's head, today. It's going to take a hard sell for me to commit to another lynch.
Okay, I just read that. It was interesting. But, Nakamura's lie at this point seems like the opposite of what a townie should do. I'm still not sold.
re Zchinque: Am I correct in understanding that people are voting Zchinque because of over-advocacy of killing Nakamura, and the loaded language presented in it, and the lylo-related 'pre-planning' comment? It's all a non-cohesive jumble and I'm bad at piecing these things together.
Ced: I truely will appreciate non-snarky comments.
WoD... I can sort-of understand his stance on Azrael, but not on AI. If DYH turns out to be scum, WoD may be someone to look at.
Zchinque did catch my eye, and I found it interesting he also caught Nakamura's eye; mine was because Zchinque did the "why would you confirm two townies?" thing, and I was thinking "... and why is that bad?". It always seems to be scum who get annoyed when townies get confirmed. In any event, apparently we don't have confirmed townies out of that whole thing.
Did you miss the quotation marks over there on the word "confirm"? It looked pretty clear to me that Zchinque was saying:
"How is it a good idea to fake confirm two townies?"
Wow.... Can you read? I ROLEBLOCK PEOPLE!! My other ability I am keeping to myself. But you are identical to me except that you have two abilities than you can use ie one or the other, where I can only use my second ability twice and flavor wise my second ability blends well with my first ability which yours good sir does not.
That being said I agree with the bastard mod part of the game. I honestly do not think that me counterclaiming you makes you scum. Also, after I counterclaimed you, you seem to still be trying. Which I could make an argument for either alignment, but for the moment I am going to say that you are town. So, Unvote.
What's the essential reason you are unvoting AI? Hard to tell here.
@ Syrenz mostly gut and then Az saying something. But I still want Nak dead I never supported him. I can see him gambit as scum or as town. Currently I still want AI dead but, I think I might have a way to figure out his alignment so I am ok with leaving him alive till tomorrow.
But Nak at the very least needs to be vigged. This is getting ridiculous. I remember a game(need to go find it) where we wrote two players off as just noob town, when in fact they were noob scum(I think Az defended both of them in that game too).
1540 (comment at the end) is a fun little one. All those things you mentioned earlier (horrible voting, role retconning, etc)? Do those make her scum? Apparently, you're not that sure after all,
Have I claimed to be sure? If I were to put numbers on it, I'd say 2/3 scum, 1/3 town. And that is mostly due to the chance that he's a new player that doesn't know how to play the game.
and it's just that the weird situation that Nakamura put herself in makes her a "liability at LyLo".
Scum or liability, yes.
LyLo is a long way away (at least, I hope it is). Townies don't think that far ahead at this stage,
Why would townies not think that far ahead?
The thing is, I don't trust Nakamura, and don't see that changing. His play has given me no reason to do so. It's better to get rid of him now than later, simply because a mis-vig gets more and more damaging to the town the closer we are to LyLo.
and we don't lynch somebody because they might just be a liability later
I've not argued for a lynch. At first I was undecided between lynch or vigging, and after thinking it over I've come to the conclusion that vigging is the appropriate course of action.
(and I read liability as "an easy mislynch if not scum" here, which doesn't make much sense anyway, so you'll need to clarify).
That is what I mean by it, I believe. Why does it not make sense?
Of course, he's only a liability if town.
Scum, meanwhile, do think ahead.
They should. Townies should as well.
I know that, when I am scum, I try to position as many warm town bodies between me and the noose as possible at an early stage, and I think other people play similarly as scum. I also try to assign mislynches (and misvigs) for each day and night that I suspect the game will last.
Isn't that what scum are supposed to do? Set up mislynches ad hopefully misvigs? Not sure I get what your point is here.
I think that you might have Nakamura down on a plan as somebody to kill before LyLo, based on her play so far,
Can hardly argue with that, I've said so several times already. I want Nakamura vigged. There, I don't think I can get much clearer than that.
and this reads like a weak push to make it happen on fear (of the liability) rather than merit.
By "merit" you mean "based on his play"? If so, I see the two as practically the same. His play makes him either scum or a liability.
Zch is pushing my lynch. Not just a small comment here and there, but a very noticeable push for me to die (which, apparently, I need to do).
Again, not lynch, vigging.
Besides that, what do you want with this post? I don't think that myself or anyone has pretended that I've only been making "small comments here and there". I feel I've been pretty clear on the issue.
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Did you miss the quotation marks over there on the word "confirm"? It looked pretty clear to me that Zchinque was saying:
"How is it a good idea to fake confirm two townies?"
That was exactly my meaning, yes.
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Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just a little sick of you getting away with derailing or creating wagons based on one-line posts, and would like to see some substance.
The case on AI is solid, I've been working on it for some time, and now you come in and say he's town, with no evidence of analysis to back this up whatsoever. Normally people would ignore posts like that, but as RafK and DYH say, the pattern weaves around you. I reckon DV's unvote will only be the first of many.
So yeah, that does annoy me just a little bit. I want AI's head, today. It's going to take a hard sell for me to commit to another lynch.
Eh, to be fair, the wagon on AI had stalled anyway and wasn't gaining any momentum.
But Nak at the very least needs to be vigged. This is getting ridiculous. I remember a game(need to go find it) where we wrote two players off as just noob town, when in fact they were noob scum(I think Az defended both of them in that game too).
Could be. I recall doing that with Jordman I believe, in one game where he turned up scum. But I'm not sure that even really newb scum would think "make crap up and admit to it" would be a good plan. It's possible that Naka is just playing at being more newb than he is but I think that he's more likely just playing the role of Taylor from Star Trek Expanded Universe Mafia.
I don't see that much of a case against Zchinque. His latest posts haven't been up to his early posts which were townie but I don't see a strong case against him.
I already asked people to earlier and they decided not to.
This is the other reason I want him lynch it is inherently anti town to be like this. Also, it sounds like a noob scum giving up. They know that the gig is up and that is it they are done.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just a little sick of you getting away with derailing or creating wagons based on one-line posts, and would like to see some substance.
The case on AI is solid, I've been working on it for some time, and now you come in and say he's town, with no evidence of analysis to back this up whatsoever. Normally people would ignore posts like that, but as RafK and DYH say, the pattern weaves around you. I reckon DV's unvote will only be the first of many.
So yeah, that does annoy me just a little bit. I want AI's head, today. It's going to take a hard sell for me to commit to another lynch.
Oh, that would certainly be understandable. Hence, my offer of the extended version. But you jump right past healthy skepticism to hostility.
This is the other reason I want him lynch it is inherently anti town to be like this. Also, it sounds like a noob scum giving up. They know that the gig is up and that is it they are done.
I think Naka might just be scummy IRL. Not sure. It's definitely an act. It's definitely very "woe is me", "pity me", etc.
I've not argued for a lynch. At first I was undecided between lynch or vigging, and after thinking it over I've come to the conclusion that vigging is the appropriate course of action.
That is what I mean by it, I believe. Why does it not make sense?
Of course, he's only a liability if town.
*grimace*
Townies don't try to kill liabilities. Scum try to get liabilities killed.
And there's some merit to the argument that townies don't tend to think ahead to Lylo. For us, it's a contingency that we may very well avoid. I fully plan on avoiding it. So I'm not yet making plans based on an expectation that we'll be there.
Eh, to be fair, the wagon on AI had stalled anyway and wasn't gaining any momentum.
Scum wagons are more likely to stall than Town wagons because their are a number of people inherently against it. AI is scum, and I really don't see myself being convinced otherwise.
In other news, Nakamura wins the award for "Worst Gambit Idea (Scum or Town Category)." I'm leaning scum here as well. Naka either lied with the initial claim, or is lying now. Either way is more indactive of Scum because a Scum would actually be able to gain something from a gambit like this, whereas a townie wouldn't. For the sake of clarity Naka, what exactly are you claiming now? When you claimed Israeli Delegate you seemed to be indicating vanilla. Is that correct or did I misread?
I disagree with Az's most recent reads (AI as Town, Z as Scum), but I still read him as Town.
In other news, Nakamura wins the award for "Worst Gambit Idea (Scum or Town Category)." I'm leaning scum here as well. Naka either lied with the initial claim, or is lying now. Either way is more indactive of Scum because a Scum would actually be able to gain something from a gambit like this, whereas a townie wouldn't. For the sake of clarity Naka, what exactly are you claiming now? When you claimed Israeli Delegate you seemed to be indicating vanilla. Is that correct or did I misread?
I don't think I am Vanilla (my PM didn't state that I was).
I don't think I am Vanilla (my PM didn't state that I was).
Vanilla is slang for someone who does not have an ability, other than their vote.
If you have an ability, you are not vanilla.
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I don’t think you’re worried about Naka’s vote derailing the town in lylo. I think you’re gunning for an easy kill, and you want to convince some gullible vigilante to be your cat’s paw and do your dirty work for you, b/c you sure as hell can’t convince the town to lynch and you don’t want that blood on your hands. I don’t see you as legitimately outraged and disgusted by Naka’s play. I don’t read you as a Tilde, you’re not the type to vote your outrage and panic at the thought of some remote, hypothetical danger in the future that Naka’s one loose cannon vote is going to doom us. I think you’re kicking her while she’s down.
Az, I'm not buying the reversal on AI without anything. This is not the first time today you've done a 180 on someone without much in the way of reasons given; it's not even the first time you've reversed stance on AI. If you won't do the work, then I guess I will have to, but I'm not just going "OK then" because you in this game have the attention-span of a toddler with ADHD.
Re Zchinque: Nakamura's mini-PBPA on him in 1530 was utterly hopeless and I don't agree with a single one of his comments. I don't see what Azrael is seeing in 1475 and 1482. I also just re-read Zchinque's 1459 (which I had previously referred to as a sign of scum) and realised he wasn't referring to confirming two townies as scummy, but asking why Nakamura as a townie would fake-confirm two townies (Nakamura had already admitted to his ability being fake). Exact quote
Quote from Zchinque »
how on earth was it a good idea to "confirm" TFF and NA as town?
Which is a sensible question. So there goes MY one point against Zchinque, and thus I think this wagon is really pants.
Skander: AI got as close as -1 I think, and people kept unvoting to back him off the brink. I think the total number of people who voted for him exceeded the number to lynch, they just weren't all voting at once. It's hard to say there was a lack of momentum, it was more that we didn't (and shouldn't have) pull the trigger while the Nakamura thing needed to be resolved.
Re: vigging, I would think the vig is spoiled for choice, what with two claimed traitors plus DYH. I don't agree with vigging Nakamura and think Zchinque is wrong, but I don't see what makes him MORE wrong than a lot of other people who have espoused wrongheadedness today.
I don't know why everyone is getting so outraged about Nakamura's gambit. I think it accomplished well what a gambit should, and achieved reactions, even if Nakamura didn't intend for it to.
I don’t think you’re worried about Naka’s vote derailing the town in lylo. I think you’re gunning for an easy kill, and you want to convince some gullible vigilante to be your cat’s paw and do your dirty work for you, b/c you sure as hell can’t convince the town to lynch and you don’t want that blood on your hands. I don’t see you as legitimately outraged and disgusted by Naka’s play. I don’t read you as a Tilde, you’re not the type to vote your outrage and panic at the thought of some remote, hypothetical danger in the future that Naka’s one loose cannon vote is going to doom us. I think you’re kicking her while she’s down.
If Nakamura is vigged and turns up town, how would there not be blood on my hands? I'm not really in a position to say "well, it wasn't me who did it", am I? If Nakamura is vigged, I don't see how I can not take responsibility for it, no matter the outcome.
I am disgusted by Nakamura's play. I don't believe that I am showing "outrage and panic" at a hypothetical LyLo situation, I believe that I am arguing for vigging someone with a decent chance of being scum, and at the least minimizing risk in said hypothetical LyLo situation.
And it's not so much his vote I'm afraid of in a LyLo situation, as that I see him as a likely mislynch. He has shown a willingness to be a loose cannon with his vote, but that was back when he claimed to have no role, no alignment, no nothing. As such I believe that might be him playing to his fake role.
I want you dead. Lynched, not vigged.
That much I have gathered.
But now it is bedtime.
Take care, gentlemen.
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Raf, Zchinque wants to kill someone he isn't convinced is scum. And he wants to do it, while bypassing the town.
You're talking to the guy who spent God knows how much effort trying to get the Ash account vigged in a certain game you ran.
In this situation though, I read Zchinque as thinking Nakamura is probably scum, and that if he's town he's not such a big loss anyway. I've seen many townies think that way; I'm not convinced Zchinque's attack on Nakamura is scummy.
In other news, Nakamura wins the award for "Worst Gambit Idea (Scum or Town Category)." I'm leaning scum here as well. Naka either lied with the initial claim, or is lying now. Either way is more indactive of Scum because a Scum would actually be able to gain something from a gambit like this, whereas a townie wouldn't.
I believe multiple people have expressed opinions opposite to this. Please explain how scum gain from this gambit but not town?
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A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
Re: vigging, I would think the vig is spoiled for choice, what with two claimed traitors plus DYH. I don't agree with vigging Nakamura and think Zchinque is wrong, but I don't see what makes him MORE wrong than a lot of other people who have espoused wrongheadedness today.
Because the scum have a very clear and very strong motive to push that kill.
If Nakamura is vigged and turns up town, how would there not be blood on my hands? I'm not really in a position to say "well, it wasn't me who did it", am I? If Nakamura is vigged, I don't see how I can not take responsibility for it, no matter the outcome.
I am disgusted by Nakamura's play. I don't believe that I am showing "outrage and panic" at a hypothetical LyLo situation, I believe that I am arguing for vigging someone with a decent chance of being scum, and at the least minimizing risk in said hypothetical LyLo situation.
And it's not so much his vote I'm afraid of in a LyLo situation, as that I see him as a likely mislynch. He has shown a willingness to be a loose cannon with his vote, but that was back when he claimed to have no role, no alignment, no nothing. As such I believe that might be him playing to his fake role.
So you're not worried about his one vote. You're worried that he'll be mislynched in a lylo situation, therefore we should misvig/kill him now?
Words do not suffice for how transparent this excuse is. Hang.
You're talking to the guy who spent God knows how much effort trying to get the Ash account vigged in a certain game you ran.
In this situation though, I read Zchinque as thinking Nakamura is probably scum, and that if he's town he's not such a big loss anyway. I've seen many townies think that way; I'm not convinced Zchinque's attack on Nakamura is scummy.
Ash presented the risk of bringing two votes to bear against the town in the late-game.
Zchinque doesn't even think Naka's VOTE is a danger. He says she might be mislynched later on, therefore mislynch now? Do you SEE how little sense this makes for a townie to say?
While on the other side of his mouth, he's talking about how her activity is "so" scummy?
If you truly think the evidence that she's scum is THAT damning as a townie, that's your case in chief. If you don't, you're upset at her, but you argue AGAINST her dying, because the evidence doesn't justify a kill. Or else, your name is Tilde, and you're so mad at her you can't see straight.
Zchinque isn't any of those three things. The townie explanations do not fit. KILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
Because the scum have a very clear and very strong motive to push that kill.
So you're not worried about his one vote. You're worried that he'll be mislynched in a lylo situation, therefore we should misvig/kill him now?
Words do not suffice for how transparent this excuse is. Hang.
Ash presented the risk of bringing two votes to bear against the town in the late-game.
Zchinque doesn't even think Naka's VOTE is a danger. He says she might be mislynched later on, therefore mislynch now? Do you SEE how little sense this makes for a townie to say?
While on the other side of his mouth, he's talking about how her activity is "so" scummy?
If you truly think the evidence that she's scum is THAT damning as a townie, that's your case in chief. If you don't, you're upset at her, but you argue AGAINST her dying, because the evidence doesn't justify a kill. Or else, your name is Tilde, and you're so mad at her you can't see straight.
Zchinque isn't any of those three things. The townie explanations do not fit. KILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
Wow... I'm going to wait until Zchinque wakes up and responds to this... and then voting if the explanation isn't sufficient. One thing bugging me though. Why do the scum have a clear and strong reason for pushing the death of Nakamura?
I believe multiple people have expressed opinions opposite to this. Please explain how scum gain from this gambit but not town?
Naka is/was lying about something. If she's lying now and really did have the power to gain info from votes, that's much more useful for scum than Town. Even her claim now of vote-remover has more potential for scum. Either way there was no town-mindset reason for whatever it was she was trying to pull.
So you're not worried about his one vote. You're worried that he'll be mislynched in a lylo situation, therefore we should misvig/kill him now?
Words do not suffice for how transparent this excuse is. Hang.
Zchinque doesn't even think Naka's VOTE is a danger. He says she might be mislynched later on, therefore mislynch now? Do you SEE how little sense this makes for a townie to say?
While on the other side of his mouth, he's talking about how her activity is "so" scummy?
If you truly think the evidence that she's scum is THAT damning as a townie, that's your case in chief. If you don't, you're upset at her, but you argue AGAINST her dying, because the evidence doesn't justify a kill. Or else, your name is Tilde, and you're so mad at her you can't see straight.
Zchinque isn't any of those three things. The townie explanations do not fit. KILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
You're absolutely correct Az. Now that you mention it, I've done exactly the same thing before as scum - try to get the easiest lynch possible. I went back and re-read Z, and he was curiously silent about the AI wagon. The only thing he ever said about it was back in post 1096:
Quote from Z »
I think AI is pushing some of the of the points against Syrenz for more than they are really worth, but I also believe that the fundamentals of the case has some merit.
Which is rather fence-sitty and in the same post expresses dissatisfaction with WoD for voting Syrenz as well. And:
Quote from Z »
I'm starting to feel like going after Nakamura. His play has been pretty scummy all through the game, and the first game-argument only holds so far.
in #1155 is rather wishy-washy. It's gauging for reactions without officially committing.
Unvote: AI
Vote: Zchinque
(Note: I still think AI is scum, but I'd like to see Z's reaction to pressure here)
Az, the thing you keep skating over is Zchinque saying he thinks Nakamura is probably scum, and focussing on the bit where he's doing the "but even if Nakamura is town it's not so bad!" routine. If he was saying he thought Nakamura was town but we should vig him to prevent a mislynch, he could nick right off, but I don't read him saying that.
The thing about me pushing for Ash to be vigged is relevant because I couldn't prove Ash had scum controllers either- but felt the odds were good enough that Ash should be vigged anyway, as the damage he could do if scum was high and the advantage to the town of Ash alive was minimal (HI CROPCIRCLES). This seems the same to me, except I was right about Ash and think Zchinque is wrong about Nakamura.
I'm busy from Thursday until probably sometime next week, so I'd like to have this dealt with before then.
As such, since it's headed that way anywho, in particular with Az throwing all his weight at it, mise well claim.
British Delegate. Trained as a sniper in the MI6, now in diplomacy.
That actually sums up the flavour pretty well. It mentions that I was never in any of the regular armed forces, and that I was never caught by the enemy while in MI6.
1-shot vig (ironic, I know), covert ability.
So Az, I'm quite capable of doing my own dirty work.
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Wow... I'm going to wait until Zchinque wakes up and responds to this... and then voting if the explanation isn't sufficient. One thing bugging me though. Why do the scum have a clear and strong reason for pushing the death of Nakamura?
Az, the thing you keep skating over is Zchinque saying he thinks Nakamura is probably scum, and focussing on the bit where he's doing the "but even if Nakamura is town it's not so bad!" routine. If he was saying he thought Nakamura was town but we should vig him to prevent a mislynch, he could nick right off, but I don't read him saying that.
The thing about me pushing for Ash to be vigged is relevant because I couldn't prove Ash had scum controllers either- but felt the odds were good enough that Ash should be vigged anyway, as the damage he could do if scum was high and the advantage to the town of Ash alive was minimal (HI CROPCIRCLES). This seems the same to me, except I was right about Ash and think Zchinque is wrong about Nakamura.
Sure. But when it comes to zapping people b/c they're supposedly they're either scum or so worthless we shouldn't care, in my experience there are only types of people who push those arguments. Tilde, and the scum.
I'm busy from Thursday until probably sometime next week, so I'd like to have this dealt with before then.
As such, since it's headed that way anywho, in particular with Az throwing all his weight at it, mise well claim.
British Delegate. Trained as a sniper in the MI6, now in diplomacy.
That actually sums up the flavour pretty well. It mentions that I was never in any of the regular armed forces, and that I was never caught by the enemy while in MI6.
1-shot vig (ironic, I know), covert ability.
So Az, I'm quite capable of doing my own dirty work.
That's nice. And as irrelevant as everyone else's claim. Why did you possibly figure that this would help "have this dealt with before then"?
And what's this "never caught while in MI6" business? *eyebrow* Were you caught afterwards?
Also, I was purposely unclear earlier as the issue is still under consultation, but please be warned that excessive flavour quotation is not allowed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
In this game? Sorry, I think you're screwed there. Your constant lying, retconning of your role, needless spreading of confusion,
Usually, when a townie is really and truly PO'd at someone, they don't spell out what was done to make sure that everyone else thinks they're bad too. Usually, they talk about how terrible what was done was, and why it was so terrible. And they're usually much more direct with expressing their own displeasure.
Quote from Z »
and add to that, now that you claim to have been town the whole time,
I think you need to put the kitchen sink back where it was. Claiming to be town? Not so much of a valid scum tell, generally speaking...
Quote from Z »
non-content and horrible voting, I'm not sure I see any change of events that would make me not want you dead.
I remember Nai once telling me, in the midst of skewering me as scum, that townies always leave open the possibility of new information changing their mind.
Quote from Z »
Short of a cop inspection, but that would really be a waste.
Really. Would it, or are you just trying to dissuade the cop from saving the mislynch you were supposed to be afraid of?
Quote from Z »
The only question in my mind is whether I want you lynched, or leave you to the vig.
That said, if you want to try, which I by all means encourage, you could start with posting the analysis you didn't want to do because you had no alignment.
So you're disgusted, and you won't change your mind on killing her, but you want her to start posting more. Right.
Quote from Z »
First, I have (so far) not pushed for your lynch. I have said I want you dead, true.
What a useful distinction.
Quote from Z »
That is because, even if you should be town, you will have a huge question mark over your head. You will be a liability in a LyLo situation, should it come to that. With your play and claim, again if you are town, the scum are highly unlikely to ever kill you.
You start your discussion of why you want her dead with two sentences that assume she's town as a premise. *Az bloodlust*
Quote from Z »
Secondly, do you not realize how horribly, horribly loaded your question is?
"-Why would a true, honest Townie be so eager to lynch a Townie who just claimed?"
Obviously, a "true, honest Townie" would not be a eager to lynch another Townie, if that "true, honest Townie", knew the other Townie's alignment. However, a "true, honest Townie" would not know the other one's alignment, would he?
Again, responding to a technicality instead of the substance. Her direct point is, you're chomping at the bit to get her killed. There's some meat and substance to that critique, but you take the cheap route to reply to it.
Quote from Z »
Thirdly, what does it matter that you had just claimed? You have done so no less than three times during this game already... And it's not like claiming is in any way a sure way not to be lynched, then there would be no point in this game.
Ironic, given that you seemed to think your own claim would help you out.
Quote from Z »
Could be fun, I don't think I've been subject to a PBPA yet.
But for the PBPA, please get the name right. Or shorthand it, I answer to Z (where not confusing), Zch, and Sir Nils Olav.
Someone you think is either scum or terrible says she's going to PBPA you, and your response is that it could be fun?
I don't believe that I am showing "outrage and panic" at a hypothetical LyLo situation, I believe that I am arguing for vigging someone with a decent chance of being scum, and at the least minimizing risk in said hypothetical LyLo situation.
You believe?
Quote from Zchinque »
And it's not so much his vote I'm afraid of in a LyLo situation, as that I see him as a likely mislynch. He has shown a willingness to be a loose cannon with his vote, but that was back when he claimed to have no role, no alignment, no nothing. As such I believe that might be him playing to his fake role.
Might? You sound awfully convinced by your own argument.
Quote from Zchinque »
That much I have gathered.
But now it is bedtime.
Take care, gentlemen.
Not a fan of the smile, or the repetitive dodging out statements: that he's leaving the thread, going to sleep, going to be busy at work.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Scum would still have to kill each of them individually or once after each day.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
at 3 vs. 3 the scum control the lynch, so they will not ever lynch one of their own, assuming reasonable play. Thus there is no need to play it out.
Other things later.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
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Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
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Metal Gear Solid 4
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Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Good to hear a reply from the Scum themself.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
You think that "knowledge" makes me scum?
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
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Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
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Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Wow someones smug all of a sudden. How does that make him scum? Unvote Vote Nakamura
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
No it wasn't. I am sick of you lying. DIE.
And, that post alone wasn't what makes him Scum, if that's what you meant.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
You sound like Z now.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
So, you do consider it a scum tell?
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
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Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
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Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
I thought it was a joke and that it had no bearing on the game. And now you said it was.... Which is it? Keep digging that whole please.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just a little sick of you getting away with derailing or creating wagons based on one-line posts, and would like to see some substance.
The case on AI is solid, I've been working on it for some time, and now you come in and say he's town, with no evidence of analysis to back this up whatsoever. Normally people would ignore posts like that, but as RafK and DYH say, the pattern weaves around you. I reckon DV's unvote will only be the first of many.
So yeah, that does annoy me just a little bit. I want AI's head, today. It's going to take a hard sell for me to commit to another lynch.
Okay, I just read that. It was interesting. But, Nakamura's lie at this point seems like the opposite of what a townie should do. I'm still not sold.
re Zchinque: Am I correct in understanding that people are voting Zchinque because of over-advocacy of killing Nakamura, and the loaded language presented in it, and the lylo-related 'pre-planning' comment? It's all a non-cohesive jumble and I'm bad at piecing these things together.
Ced: I truely will appreciate non-snarky comments.
WoD... I can sort-of understand his stance on Azrael, but not on AI. If DYH turns out to be scum, WoD may be someone to look at.
Can you please address my post here?
Did you miss the quotation marks over there on the word "confirm"? It looked pretty clear to me that Zchinque was saying:
"How is it a good idea to fake confirm two townies?"
What's the essential reason you are unvoting AI? Hard to tell here.
What exactly don't you like about Zchinque?
Please.
Not sure I see the case on Zchinque atm. I'll try to get a reread done on him later though.
Okay, who's scum of Nakamura and Zchinque and why?
This.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
But Nak at the very least needs to be vigged. This is getting ridiculous. I remember a game(need to go find it) where we wrote two players off as just noob town, when in fact they were noob scum(I think Az defended both of them in that game too).
Have I claimed to be sure? If I were to put numbers on it, I'd say 2/3 scum, 1/3 town. And that is mostly due to the chance that he's a new player that doesn't know how to play the game.
Scum or liability, yes.
Why would townies not think that far ahead?
The thing is, I don't trust Nakamura, and don't see that changing. His play has given me no reason to do so. It's better to get rid of him now than later, simply because a mis-vig gets more and more damaging to the town the closer we are to LyLo.
I've not argued for a lynch. At first I was undecided between lynch or vigging, and after thinking it over I've come to the conclusion that vigging is the appropriate course of action.
That is what I mean by it, I believe. Why does it not make sense?
Of course, he's only a liability if town.
They should. Townies should as well.
Isn't that what scum are supposed to do? Set up mislynches ad hopefully misvigs? Not sure I get what your point is here.
Can hardly argue with that, I've said so several times already.
I want Nakamura vigged.
There, I don't think I can get much clearer than that.
By "merit" you mean "based on his play"? If so, I see the two as practically the same. His play makes him either scum or a liability.
Again, not lynch, vigging.
Besides that, what do you want with this post? I don't think that myself or anyone has pretended that I've only been making "small comments here and there". I feel I've been pretty clear on the issue.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
That post (not alone, apparently I don't know the definition of that word) was not important.
Have fun in your "whole", by the way.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
That was exactly my meaning, yes.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
I already asked people to earlier and they decided not to.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Eh, to be fair, the wagon on AI had stalled anyway and wasn't gaining any momentum.
Could be. I recall doing that with Jordman I believe, in one game where he turned up scum. But I'm not sure that even really newb scum would think "make crap up and admit to it" would be a good plan. It's possible that Naka is just playing at being more newb than he is but I think that he's more likely just playing the role of Taylor from Star Trek Expanded Universe Mafia.
I don't see that much of a case against Zchinque. His latest posts haven't been up to his early posts which were townie but I don't see a strong case against him.
This is the other reason I want him lynch it is inherently anti town to be like this. Also, it sounds like a noob scum giving up. They know that the gig is up and that is it they are done.
Oh, that would certainly be understandable. Hence, my offer of the extended version. But you jump right past healthy skepticism to hostility.
I think Naka might just be scummy IRL. Not sure. It's definitely an act. It's definitely very "woe is me", "pity me", etc.
*grimace*
Townies don't try to kill liabilities. Scum try to get liabilities killed.
And there's some merit to the argument that townies don't tend to think ahead to Lylo. For us, it's a contingency that we may very well avoid. I fully plan on avoiding it. So I'm not yet making plans based on an expectation that we'll be there.
Nah, no act here.
If you, Z/Vampire, want me lynched, have me lynched.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Scum wagons are more likely to stall than Town wagons because their are a number of people inherently against it. AI is scum, and I really don't see myself being convinced otherwise.
In other news, Nakamura wins the award for "Worst Gambit Idea (Scum or Town Category)." I'm leaning scum here as well. Naka either lied with the initial claim, or is lying now. Either way is more indactive of Scum because a Scum would actually be able to gain something from a gambit like this, whereas a townie wouldn't. For the sake of clarity Naka, what exactly are you claiming now? When you claimed Israeli Delegate you seemed to be indicating vanilla. Is that correct or did I misread?
I disagree with Az's most recent reads (AI as Town, Z as Scum), but I still read him as Town.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
I don't think I am Vanilla (my PM didn't state that I was).
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Vanilla is slang for someone who does not have an ability, other than their vote.
If you have an ability, you are not vanilla.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
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Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
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Assassin's Creed 2
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Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
I don’t think you’re worried about Naka’s vote derailing the town in lylo. I think you’re gunning for an easy kill, and you want to convince some gullible vigilante to be your cat’s paw and do your dirty work for you, b/c you sure as hell can’t convince the town to lynch and you don’t want that blood on your hands. I don’t see you as legitimately outraged and disgusted by Naka’s play. I don’t read you as a Tilde, you’re not the type to vote your outrage and panic at the thought of some remote, hypothetical danger in the future that Naka’s one loose cannon vote is going to doom us. I think you’re kicking her while she’s down.
I want you dead. Lynched, not vigged.
That's all.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Re Zchinque: Nakamura's mini-PBPA on him in 1530 was utterly hopeless and I don't agree with a single one of his comments. I don't see what Azrael is seeing in 1475 and 1482. I also just re-read Zchinque's 1459 (which I had previously referred to as a sign of scum) and realised he wasn't referring to confirming two townies as scummy, but asking why Nakamura as a townie would fake-confirm two townies (Nakamura had already admitted to his ability being fake). Exact quote Which is a sensible question. So there goes MY one point against Zchinque, and thus I think this wagon is really pants.
Skander: AI got as close as -1 I think, and people kept unvoting to back him off the brink. I think the total number of people who voted for him exceeded the number to lynch, they just weren't all voting at once. It's hard to say there was a lack of momentum, it was more that we didn't (and shouldn't have) pull the trigger while the Nakamura thing needed to be resolved.
Kill. It. Now.
The complete AI analysis I fully expected to need to provide later on; I only asked as a formality.
Azrael.
If Nakamura is vigged and turns up town, how would there not be blood on my hands? I'm not really in a position to say "well, it wasn't me who did it", am I? If Nakamura is vigged, I don't see how I can not take responsibility for it, no matter the outcome.
I am disgusted by Nakamura's play. I don't believe that I am showing "outrage and panic" at a hypothetical LyLo situation, I believe that I am arguing for vigging someone with a decent chance of being scum, and at the least minimizing risk in said hypothetical LyLo situation.
And it's not so much his vote I'm afraid of in a LyLo situation, as that I see him as a likely mislynch. He has shown a willingness to be a loose cannon with his vote, but that was back when he claimed to have no role, no alignment, no nothing. As such I believe that might be him playing to his fake role.
That much I have gathered.
But now it is bedtime.
Take care, gentlemen.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
You're talking to the guy who spent God knows how much effort trying to get the Ash account vigged in a certain game you ran.
In this situation though, I read Zchinque as thinking Nakamura is probably scum, and that if he's town he's not such a big loss anyway. I've seen many townies think that way; I'm not convinced Zchinque's attack on Nakamura is scummy.
I believe multiple people have expressed opinions opposite to this. Please explain how scum gain from this gambit but not town?
A card game about Presidents. Stabbing each other. With knives.
Because the scum have a very clear and very strong motive to push that kill.
So you're not worried about his one vote. You're worried that he'll be mislynched in a lylo situation, therefore we should misvig/kill him now?
Words do not suffice for how transparent this excuse is. Hang.
Ash presented the risk of bringing two votes to bear against the town in the late-game.
Zchinque doesn't even think Naka's VOTE is a danger. He says she might be mislynched later on, therefore mislynch now? Do you SEE how little sense this makes for a townie to say?
While on the other side of his mouth, he's talking about how her activity is "so" scummy?
If you truly think the evidence that she's scum is THAT damning as a townie, that's your case in chief. If you don't, you're upset at her, but you argue AGAINST her dying, because the evidence doesn't justify a kill. Or else, your name is Tilde, and you're so mad at her you can't see straight.
Zchinque isn't any of those three things. The townie explanations do not fit. KILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
Wow... I'm going to wait until Zchinque wakes up and responds to this... and then voting if the explanation isn't sufficient. One thing bugging me though. Why do the scum have a clear and strong reason for pushing the death of Nakamura?
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Naka is/was lying about something. If she's lying now and really did have the power to gain info from votes, that's much more useful for scum than Town. Even her claim now of vote-remover has more potential for scum. Either way there was no town-mindset reason for whatever it was she was trying to pull.
You're absolutely correct Az. Now that you mention it, I've done exactly the same thing before as scum - try to get the easiest lynch possible. I went back and re-read Z, and he was curiously silent about the AI wagon. The only thing he ever said about it was back in post 1096:
Which is rather fence-sitty and in the same post expresses dissatisfaction with WoD for voting Syrenz as well. And:
in #1155 is rather wishy-washy. It's gauging for reactions without officially committing.
Unvote: AI
Vote: Zchinque
(Note: I still think AI is scum, but I'd like to see Z's reaction to pressure here)
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
The thing about me pushing for Ash to be vigged is relevant because I couldn't prove Ash had scum controllers either- but felt the odds were good enough that Ash should be vigged anyway, as the damage he could do if scum was high and the advantage to the town of Ash alive was minimal (HI CROPCIRCLES). This seems the same to me, except I was right about Ash and think Zchinque is wrong about Nakamura.
As such, since it's headed that way anywho, in particular with Az throwing all his weight at it, mise well claim.
British Delegate. Trained as a sniper in the MI6, now in diplomacy.
That actually sums up the flavour pretty well. It mentions that I was never in any of the regular armed forces, and that I was never caught by the enemy while in MI6.
1-shot vig (ironic, I know), covert ability.
So Az, I'm quite capable of doing my own dirty work.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
It's an extra kill.
Sure. But when it comes to zapping people b/c they're supposedly they're either scum or so worthless we shouldn't care, in my experience there are only types of people who push those arguments. Tilde, and the scum.
That's nice. And as irrelevant as everyone else's claim. Why did you possibly figure that this would help "have this dealt with before then"?
And what's this "never caught while in MI6" business? *eyebrow* Were you caught afterwards?
AsianInvasion (6) - RafaelK, MandersHex, ~V~, Nom_Anor, ~Tilde~, Wrath_of_DoG
Nakamura (5) - indomitablebug, Talore, TheFooFish, vezokpiraka, Deaths_Vampire
Zchinque (4) - Nakamura, Azrael, ced395, dropkickdude
Syrenz (1) - DYH
Anaklusmos (1) - Some One
With 22 alive, it is 12 to lynch.
----------------------------------
Anaklusmos replaces Ace, effective immediately.
Also, I was purposely unclear earlier as the issue is still under consultation, but please be warned that excessive flavour quotation is not allowed.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Usually, when a townie is really and truly PO'd at someone, they don't spell out what was done to make sure that everyone else thinks they're bad too. Usually, they talk about how terrible what was done was, and why it was so terrible. And they're usually much more direct with expressing their own displeasure.
I think you need to put the kitchen sink back where it was. Claiming to be town? Not so much of a valid scum tell, generally speaking...
I remember Nai once telling me, in the midst of skewering me as scum, that townies always leave open the possibility of new information changing their mind.
Really. Would it, or are you just trying to dissuade the cop from saving the mislynch you were supposed to be afraid of?
So you're disgusted, and you won't change your mind on killing her, but you want her to start posting more. Right.
What a useful distinction.
You start your discussion of why you want her dead with two sentences that assume she's town as a premise. *Az bloodlust*
Again, responding to a technicality instead of the substance. Her direct point is, you're chomping at the bit to get her killed. There's some meat and substance to that critique, but you take the cheap route to reply to it.
Ironic, given that you seemed to think your own claim would help you out.
Someone you think is either scum or terrible says she's going to PBPA you, and your response is that it could be fun?
You sound awfully passionate about it.
You believe?
Might? You sound awfully convinced by your own argument.
Not a fan of the smile, or the repetitive dodging out statements: that he's leaving the thread, going to sleep, going to be busy at work.