We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
We're lynching ~tilde~, just to help you catch up.
See now, that's the kind of statement that makes no sense. Right now, you're under a fair amount of suspicion already, but jumping in and saying "lynch <player>" right after someone replaces into the game, even if it's done as a flippant remark (and I don't see any or <sarcasm> tags that would indicate that was your intention) is just... well... irrational?
My read on it is you're trying very very hard to distract the active players from something, and that makes me feel real confident about my current hunch on Dagger.
Vote on Dagger stands, though if AKid is brought up into potential lynch range, I would have no problem with switching my vote to him. He's the #2 man on my scum list at the moment.
[/color]Vote on Dagger stands, though if AKid is brought up into potential lynch range, I would have no problem with switching my vote to him. He's the #2 man on my scum list at the moment.
See now, that's the kind of statement that makes no sense. Right now, you're under a fair amount of suspicion already, but jumping in and saying "lynch <player>" right after someone replaces into the game, even if it's done as a flippant remark (and I don't see any or <sarcasm> tags that would indicate that was your intention) is just... well... irrational?
My read on it is you're trying very very hard to distract the active players from something, and that makes me feel real confident about my current hunch on Dagger.
Vote on Dagger stands, though if AKid is brought up into potential lynch range, I would have no problem with switching my vote to him. He's the #2 man on my scum list at the moment.
AKid is trying to distract us from Dagger? You honestly believe this?
Potential lynch range is L-x, where x = what exactly?
For all I know, AKid is using me to pull heat off of himself. I just think AKid is "working the crowd" for his own purposes.
As for potential lynch range, I'd switch my vote to put pressure on him in order to force a claim from him, but with 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch, and I don't think anyone is anywhere close to the current 6 or 7 vote claim threshold. Actually I don't think anybody's got more than 3 votes on them.
For all I know, AKid is using me to pull heat off of himself. I just think AKid is "working the crowd" for his own purposes.
Then why not just vote him instead? I fail to see why we go after a less suspicious target when there's a more suspicious target. Not to mention that target one has a cop-confirmation. Why not just go for target 2, then back to target one after we see what happens after target 2's lynch?
Ya, but if you feel it is correct and don't expect people to follow you, especially because you don't want to present a case, what's the point?
Have you considered the fact that most players generally regard me as a paranoid nutjob when it comes to Mafia games? People don't take my opinions seriously, even if there is evidence to back it up. I don't have legitimacy. So about the best thing I can do is point out something that I think is wrong, and let everyone else decide for themselves if they want to ignore me or not.
Have you considered the fact that most players generally regard me as a paranoid nutjob when it comes to Mafia games? People don't take my opinions seriously, even if there is evidence to back it up. I don't have legitimacy. So about the best thing I can do is point out something that I think is wrong, and let everyone else decide for themselves if they want to ignore me or not.
Fascinating, did not know at all.
So you are the opposite Cyan? Cyan will say the same thing in 1 line - like "vote XYZ for ub3r 1337 justice" and lynch that person. And you will form a solid case thats iron-clad especially because there's like 4 people left with 1 scum and the 3 townies remaining are confirmed masons including the cop, doctor, and you, and they will still lynch you regardless.
"Xyre is getting suspended as an excuse not to post"
"Dagger is suspicious because he's asking the mod a question"
No, those sound like statements coming from a completely lucid individual.
And Pale mage?
Yeah, I started to post, then ran to work (arriving late) and then came home, and thought of posting something completely different (after noticing Bil's overly blatant fishing, which in my opinion is often a lynch-worthy offence when dealing with a cop-cleared townie, when there are so many other leads, such as tilde or AK, at least from his perspective...)
Why not just go for target 2, then back to target one after we see what happens after target 2's lynch?
1) There are two opposed scum teams here, we don't know if AKid and Dagger are Scum buddies, Scum rivals, one town and one scum or both town. Lynching one won't neccesarily give us intel on the other.
2) Dagger mentioned that he knows how I think as scum since he's played as a scumbuddy of mine. That info runs both ways, and in my opinion he's giving his "scum tell" in this game.
3) If I were to vote AKid at this point, he'd immediately respond by saying it's an OMGUS vote (and he'd be somewhat right). That hurts what little credibility I might have.
4) As for the "mod question" thing, Looking back I see that Dagger never actually "asked the mod something", but rather this:
Quote from Dagger »
I request that no lynch be made before I am back again.
I am very very serious about the bolded part.
Follwed by this:
Quote from Dagger »
It was around 4.30am when I made that request and I needed to sleep first, before I could do some reread to clarify something. That is now done.
He never answered DYH's question about whether or not it was helpful, nor has he mentioned what it was he wanted to reread, and Dagger promptly shut down PM and Bilbroxain when they inquired about it. I interpreted all of that as it being some sort of PM communication between him and the mod which was not to be discussed, I for one am unsure of what Dagger might have picked up in his reread that he'd want to keep to himself. Especially since as a cop-cleared player, he's a prime kill target for the scum, and if he happens to die, well, that info dies with him.
edit while writing:
Quote from Some One »
And you will form a solid case thats iron-clad especially because there's like 4 people left with 1 scum and the 3 townies remaining are confirmed masons including the cop, doctor, and you, and they will still lynch you regardless.
Check out what happened when I got lynched in Kung-Fu mafia. I was a mason, who gained a 1-shot vig ability when my mason partner died, and I tried to take out the (bulletproof) GF with it. The town promptly strung me up after I pleaded with them that Hawkeye (who had claimed vanilla town) wasn't vanilla.
2) Dagger mentioned that he knows how I think as scum since he's played as a scumbuddy of mine. That info runs both ways, and in my opinion he's giving his "scum tell" in this game.
Care to explain what his scum tell is? You'd have a better chance of people taking you seriously if you'd be clear and thorough about the reasons behind your suspicions.
I'm interested why certain people were dropped from your list or why you considered them to be scum first, especially since I was on your list and you didn't really explain. (Ok, and I didn't really bother since it was at the beginning.)
It was NOT a scumlist in the way you imply, hell. How many times must I repeat that statement?
I was entertaining the notion that JSexy was attacking Bilb as an attempt to distance, as what DYH did to CM in Code Geass Mafia. The other five I deemed worthy to do rereads on based on the general feel of their postings. As for why some were dropped, partly subsequent postings they made caused me to re-question my original intuition AND partly role-sensitive info, tyvm.
No one was even talking about it before you suggested it. Stop being so damn pedantic. Asking opinions on a mass claim, and even saying you were firmly in favour of it, is the same as asking for one.
You're just looking for townie support before going ahead, so as to cover yourself with . If you think you're so completely confirmed, why do you need to pedantically cover your ass whenever you make a post like that?
That being said, your tendency to only ask questions, without providing any answers for yourself, is incredibly troubling. A classic scum tell, as it were.
I disagree. It is not the same thing. You'll find towns and scums word their phrases differently, depending on their motivation and intention. As for why I felt the need to clarify, it's because certain quarters usually feel compelled to use such misunderstanding to push forward their own agenda. Confirmed or not, I am displeased when people tried to misrepresent me and twist my words to suit their own infernal purposes.
Also, classic scum tell? Where did you pull that one out of? What's the purpose of interrogating and questioning for responses when you are going to give an answer first anyway so that whomever was being asked knew how to give a "safe answer"?
I believe that this is an unsupported assumption, again, Dagger. Care to elaborate on just what, if anything, you are going on here, aside from "I'm confirmed town, therefore I am right?" Because right now, it sounds like you are speaking from experience.
I'm bloody experienced as a scum, tyvm. If I am a mafioso, I usually live to the endgame or one of the last few scums to die. And I've been SK twice, even winning as one once.
Dagger's mass claim thing was very clearly a gambit to get reactions, and anyone saying otherwise probably isn't very good at actualt scum hunting.
Thank you, but it was not a gambit. I really want responses and I don't think everyone responded to it? Maybe it was too suspicious for them to bite it. Heh.
Since you are voting in the face of an innocent investigation could you perhaps summarize your case against Dagger for me? There are bits and pieces scattered about, but I'd like to see it compiled together. If I've missed it, just point me to the post.
If you are so interested in a case on me, why not just do a reread on me? Why set up Tilde as the scapegoat so that attacks on me could be perceived as coming from him?
1) Dagger said NO ONE should name claim regardless of the circumstances after CM came out and claimed, and he hasn't said a peep about it after SoP and Some One did just that. (I think SoP actually commented on Dagger's stance reversal about this)
I don't recall SoP name-claiming? As for Some One, it was because Xyre was the one pushing it with his vig-threat. I deemed that perfectly excusable for him since at that point, he's cleared in my book and I interpreted his action as being drunken on his capacity to kill. There's not much point anyway in being indignant about it when there were others decrying his actions already.
2) Posted after Dagger's "time out" call. At the time I thought the stall was a scum tactic on Dagger's part, thinking he was trying to work up a defense on his presumed scum-buddy SoP.
But, Dagger also mentioned he wanted to ask the mod something during that time out. So, if he's town (with a cop investigation of town on him)... what would he have been asking? I don't want or expect an answer to that... The fact that Dagger asked the question is odd enough, and seemed happy to rush SoP to the gallows once he got his answer.
I'll tell you why. It was to clarify on my role's mechanics. Anything further, you would have to get me to Lynch -2 first.
4) His general behavior Day 3. Namely, the fact that he's running around wielding his Cop-confirmation like a lead pipe in an effort to get information from everyone.
Reactions. I deduce people's alignment from reactions.
Care to explain what his (Dagger's) scum tell is? You'd have a better chance of people taking you seriously if you'd be clear and thorough about the reasons behind your suspicions.
Quote from Dagger, next post »
I'm bloody experienced as a scum, tyvm. If I am a mafioso, I usually live to the endgame or one of the last few scums to die. And I've been SK twice, even winning as one once.
That's the reason I'm reluctant to share that info. As in poker, so in Mafia, you don't point out to a player which tell you may have picked up on.
Okay, so I've finished off a quick read-through of the thread (something more in-depth will have to come tomorrow when I'll have all day to read, take notes, and comment), but until then, here's a rundown of my thoughts on this game as they stand now, haphazard and in need of sleep as they may be:
Nobody in particular strikes me as scummy. Tilde is closest, but the feeling's not particularly strong. That said, I will be looking closely at the two main cases (Tilde and AKid, I believe it is) tomorrow.
Exception to the above: Dagger, who looks like he's taking the "Cop cleared so nyeah" route, which always strikes me as a dickish move. I'll be keeping an eye on him, but I'll accept that you're town... for now. Oh, and next time you so much as mention a mass claim without calling the idea an unqualifiably stupid one, I will do everything in my power to inflict physical harm on you. Anyone who doesn't know why should read Shaman Mafia... during the night.
I spent 7.5 hours reading this. There should have been more than one page posted during that time. Seriously, that just hurts the town. (Yes, I am aware of the irony, thank you very much.)
About speculation of how the clock works (yes, I know it's not anywhere near discussion at the moment; I said this would be haphazard) it's spelled out that each role will add or subtract or both from the clock. I think it may be a flavor thing as to exact specifications on who moves the clock how much and in what way.
And finally, on a personal note, I should have been on MSN more often this summer, so I could have gotten in on this thing at the beginning. So awesome!
Also, I officially need to see what the Gomery pm says.
Again, something more indepth tomorrow, after sleep.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambivalent owner of nan's soul. Proud worshipper of TFE.
He never answered DYH's question about whether or not it was helpful, nor has he mentioned what it was he wanted to reread, and Dagger promptly shut down PM and Bilbroxain when they inquired about it. I interpreted all of that as it being some sort of PM communication between him and the mod which was not to be discussed, I for one am unsure of what Dagger might have picked up in his reread that he'd want to keep to himself. Especially since as a cop-cleared player, he's a prime kill target for the scum, and if he happens to die, well, that info dies with him.
Which was precisely why I told Karmoderm (swinkee) that I would explain my reason before the day is over, which as I recall is not even near over yet.
That's the reason I'm reluctant to share that info. As in poker, so in Mafia, you don't point out to a player which tell you may have picked up on.
Ah, so you can indeed put into words my tell. I don't really care to know, except that it'll be proven to yourself said tell is a red herring when I turn up really confirmed as town.
LOL, seems Dagger really did ask the mod something during that time out.
To clarify, the primary purpose of the time-out is to get some rereads in. But I did indeed clarify with SB during that period about the mechanics of my role. I hardly need several hours just to ask a single question.
Rationale for asking opinions on Mass Claim:
In a normal game of mafia, both town and scums have similar opinions on mass claim. Town abhors it unless there is a good reason. Scums want it, but openly abhors it because it is the politically correct answer to appear as a town. (I remember asking someone about the politically correct answer to a mass claim and don't remember receiving a reply)
In this game, which has the more rare setup of two mafia families, opinions are slightly different. Again, town abhors it unless there is a good reason. Here, scums equally abhor mass claim because they will be forced to reveal themselves to the other mafia family while not guaranteed to receive only the truth from the others which have claimed. It's not a double-edged sword anymore. It's more like a sword which will harm them more often than not. Claim vanilla and risk getting lynched. Claim power role and risk getting NKed by the other team.
Therefore, while we cannot determine absolutely the alignment of those who are openly against mass claim, the logic is that those who are more receptive to a mass claim have a higher probability of being town. Town have less inhibition to mass claim because they are not afraid of the truth and they usually have nothing to hide from the rest of the town. So then, what's a good reason to a town for a mass claim? When it's very difficult for a town to properly identify a scum, which is valid in this game.
So far, we have two other people in this game who are receptive to a mass claim: the claimed mason and the claimed vig. While this doesn't really give any real information, it secures my confidence that both of those are town. As for those who didn't reply to my question on mass claim, maybe they are too cautious to actually reply to it because they fear giving the "wrong answer"?
If you are so interested in a case on me, why not just do a reread on me? Why set up Tilde as the scapegoat so that attacks on me could be perceived as coming from him?
I am NOT interested in the case on you, Dagger. I think it's crap. I'm engaging Tilde on this so I can figure him out.
Nobody in particular strikes me as scummy. Tilde is closest, but the feeling's not particularly strong. That said, I will be looking closely at the two main cases (Tilde and AKid, I believe it is) tomorrow. I spent 7.5 hours reading this. There should have been more than one page posted during that time. Seriously, that just hurts the town. (Yes, I am aware of the irony, thank you very much.)
The thing is, knowing that little posting is not beneficial for the town, can you at all defend Karmoderm's behavior of not posting much on topic, not really actively participating, etc?
You can't expect swinkee to be able to answer for karm. And besides which, lurking to the point of getting replaced says more about a players intrest then their alignment. Its a complete non-tell.
Yeah, I started to post, then ran to work (arriving late) and then came home, and thought of posting something completely different (after noticing Bil's overly blatant fishing, which in my opinion is often a lynch-worthy offence when dealing with a cop-cleared townie, when there are so many other leads, such as tilde or AK, at least from his perspective...)
I could have worded it better, perhaps.
It goes beyond your wording. Your actions fight the ideas you proposed in that post. In fact if I were to read that post in a vacuum it seems like you don't really care which of those three (Tilde, AKid, or Bilbro) we lynch today.
Do you still see Xyre as likely scum? You seemed hot to do a PBPA on him earlier. I don't recall seeing it or a statement that your opinion had changed.
You can't expect swinkee to be able to answer for karm. And besides which, lurking to the point of getting replaced says more about a players intrest then their alignment. Its a complete non-tell.
Okay, so I've finished off a quick read-through of the thread (something more in-depth will have to come tomorrow when I'll have all day to read, take notes, and comment), but until then, here's a rundown of my thoughts on this game as they stand now, haphazard and in need of sleep as they may be:
Nobody in particular strikes me as scummy. Tilde is closest, but the feeling's not particularly strong. That said, I will be looking closely at the two main cases (Tilde and AKid, I believe it is) tomorrow.
Exception to the above: Dagger, who looks like he's taking the "Cop cleared so nyeah" route, which always strikes me as a dickish move. I'll be keeping an eye on him, but I'll accept that you're town... for now. Oh, and next time you so much as mention a mass claim without calling the idea an unqualifiably stupid one, I will do everything in my power to inflict physical harm on you. Anyone who doesn't know why should read Shaman Mafia... during the night.
I spent 7.5 hours reading this. There should have been more than one page posted during that time. Seriously, that just hurts the town. (Yes, I am aware of the irony, thank you very much.)
About speculation of how the clock works (yes, I know it's not anywhere near discussion at the moment; I said this would be haphazard) it's spelled out that each role will add or subtract or both from the clock. I think it may be a flavor thing as to exact specifications on who moves the clock how much and in what way.
And finally, on a personal note, I should have been on MSN more often this summer, so I could have gotten in on this thing at the beginning. So awesome!
Also, I officially need to see what the Gomery pm says.
Again, something more indepth tomorrow, after sleep.
I believe he was simply wanting to know what Stormblind had to say about Gomery flavor-wise, since swinkee is from Canada and Gomery is a Canadian judge. I expect he was meaning after the game is done, not that he needed to see it immediately for something game related.
It goes beyond your wording. Your actions fight the ideas you proposed in that post. In fact if I were to read that post in a vacuum it seems like you don't really care which of those three (Tilde, AKid, or Bilbro) we lynch today.
Do you still see Xyre as likely scum? You seemed hot to do a PBPA on him earlier. I don't recall seeing it or a statement that your opinion had changed.
I'm waiting for the promised post of content to really make my mind up on Xyre.
And, in all honesty, I don't really care about which of those three hangs.
Tilde is acting like himself (which in some people's opinions is a reason to lynch in itself - but this game, he really has made some incredibly silly statements)
AK is, well, full of suspiciously timed deflections today,
And Bilbro? Well, he had no reason to ask dagger what he was asking the mod about - that was essentially the same as asking him for a claim, as...well, what else would dagger have been doing aside from asking about an ability of some kind? Dagger answering him would be the same as claiming a power role. Which is not cool at all.
I just have found it hard to really get behind a lynch today. I'm reasonably busy at university and work, but I could have made the time if I really, really tried.
I just haven't had the motivation, to be perfectly honest. The same as most of the other players in this game, but, well, at least I'm willing to admit it, instead of blaming faulty internet connections.
I disagree. It is not the same thing. You'll find towns and scums word their phrases differently, depending on their motivation and intention. As for why I felt the need to clarify, it's because certain quarters usually feel compelled to use such misunderstanding to push forward their own agenda. Confirmed or not, I am displeased when people tried to misrepresent me and twist my words to suit their own infernal purposes.
Also, classic scum tell? Where did you pull that one out of? What's the purpose of interrogating and questioning for responses when you are going to give an answer first anyway so that whomever was being asked knew how to give a "safe answer"?
You have no right to disagree. You bought it up. You said you were in favour of it. That, for anyone but the most obtuse of individuals, is the same as asking for one.
If anything, this game has shown that townies are as likely if not more likely to ask for this stuff without floating it past the town first than anyone else. You on the other hand just sound insincere, pedantic and incredibly scummy in your attempts to distance yourself from this. Without that innocent investigation, man...
Quote from Dagger »
I'm bloody experienced as a scum, tyvm. If I am a mafioso, I usually live to the endgame or one of the last few scums to die. And I've been SK twice, even winning as one once.
I'm fully aware that you're not a noob scum, Dagger - I played with you during Matrix, remember - I was insinuating there that your "speaking from experience" refers to front row seats - that is, it sounds like you are speaking from first-hand experience this game. I may be an ******* sometimes, but I'm not one to openly lie about someone's experience.
For this, my replies are bolded.
Quote from dagger »
Rationale for asking opinions on Mass Claim:
In a normal game of mafia, both town and scums have similar opinions on mass claim. True. Town abhors it unless there is a good reason. Scums want it, but openly abhors it because it is the politically correct answer to appear as a town. (I remember asking someone about the politically correct answer to a mass claim and don't remember receiving a reply). This sounds astute, but is essentially just saying "yes, everyone likes to mass-claim", but in four times as many words as is necessary.
In this game, which has the more rare setup of two mafia families, opinions are slightly different. Again, town abhors it unless there is a good reason. Here, scums equally abhor mass claim because they will be forced to reveal themselves to the other mafia family while not guaranteed to receive only the truth from the others which have claimed. What an utter load of bollocks. You failed to mention that the doomsday mafia can pick out their power roles to kill if a mass-claim is allowed, and that we don't know how the hitlist chooses their kills - or if they have ways of guessing rolenames when all information is in the open. I think you're getting too carried away with your "wow, I'm a pro mafia player" speaking here to really address the facts. You're making sweeping generalizations that simply do not apply to this game. Once more, being cop confirmed is NOT an excuse for sloppy play, nor is it an excuse for spewing up rhetoric like this and expect the town to applaud with cries of "YAY! DAGGER TAUGHT US SOMETHING TODAY!"
It's not a double-edged sword anymore. It's more like a sword which will harm them more often than not. Claim vanilla and risk getting lynched. Claim power role and risk getting NKed by the other team.
Therefore, while we cannot determine absolutely the alignment of those who are openly against mass claim, the logic is that those who are more receptive to a mass claim have a higher probability of being town. Town have less inhibition to mass claim because they are not afraid of the truth and they usually have nothing to hide from the rest of the town. So then, what's a good reason to a town for a mass claim? When it's very difficult for a town to properly identify a scum, which is valid in this game.
So far, we have two other people in this game who are receptive to a mass claim: the claimed mason and the claimed vig. While this doesn't really give any real information, it secures my confidence that both of those are town. As for those who didn't reply to my question on mass claim, maybe they are too cautious to actually reply to it because they fear giving the "wrong answer"?
Your logic here is seriously flawed.
Okay, dagger, here's the deal.
Stop acting like a smart-ass, please. Or, at least make sense if you're going to do it regardless. Players like you, that flip the town the bird upon being confirmed, annoy the hell out of me.
You won't like me when I'm angry.
(Sorry, watched hulk 2 this morning, and couldn't resist. )
You have no right to disagree. You bought it up. You said you were in favour of it. That, for anyone but the most obtuse of individuals, is the same as asking for one.
If anything, this game has shown that townies are as likely if not more likely to ask for this stuff without floating it past the town first than anyone else. You on the other hand just sound insincere, pedantic and incredibly scummy in your attempts to distance yourself from this. Without that innocent investigation, man...
I have every right to disagree, if I am a player in this game. Your own viewpoint is no more valid than mine, so stop spouting it as such. What more, if someone intends to wield said wordings against me in the first place, then feel free to engage me in an argument.
I now challenge you on your statement. You implied that I am a scum without the innocent investigation on me. Then in your mind, there must be a case for it. State that case, under the pretense the investigation doesn't exist. I find it utterly disturbing that you would openly hint I am scum but then dismiss it by quoting the investigation result. Is that a probing attack on me?
I'm fully aware that you're not a noob scum, Dagger - I played with you during Matrix, remember - I was insinuating there that your "speaking from experience" refers to front row seats - that is, it sounds like you are speaking from first-hand experience this game. I may be an ******* sometimes, but I'm not one to openly lie about someone's experience.
I play mafia by adopting my opponents' mindset. Insinuate all you want.
Stop acting like a smart-ass, please. Or, at least make sense if you're going to do it regardless. Players like you, that flip the town the bird upon being confirmed, annoy the hell out of me.
You won't like me when I'm angry.
(Sorry, watched hulk 2 this morning, and couldn't resist. )
Wait till you see when I'm angry. You'll find such posts quadrupled with words and words and words.
First of all, I assumed the mass claims thing was a major issue of contention with regards to me. I then presented to the town my rationale behind it and why I asked for it. It seemed smart-ass because I firmly believed what I posted.
Secondly, if you don't like parts of it or perceived parts of it as inaccurate or overly assuming, you may state your opinions. That doesn't give you the right to make a personal attack against me like that. If anything, it portrayed you as overly arrogant in stamping out opinions that contradicted your own as if they are worthless. That equally annoy the hell out of me.
Actually, I don't think you have answered my question though. You said:
I would just like to know what you mean with confirmable by nature? Do you mean names that clearly or don't fit a role? And how would this argument even come into play when requiring a Vanilla to claim?
I think it would be safe to say that, oh, George Bush isn't scum. And with a vanilla townie, because it's such an easy claim for scum to fake, the role name is the best chance you have at verification.
1) Actually it seems very unlikely that we will be able to determine alignment based on the character roles claimed. In fact, with Vladmir Putin and Kim Jong-il both coming up Town, making such assumptions based on a stated role name seems shaky at best.
2) Explain to me how a role name might help us verify (or dispute) a ability claim (or in this case Vanilla claim). Obviously there is the chance of counterclaiming, but besides that, what would it prove or disprove? Did it make logical sense for Castro to be a Mason or John Gomery to be a Cop? I can certainly think of arguments why both roles fit, but they aren't necessary obvious and it's not like both roles couldn't also have been believable with different ability claimed instead.
1) Well, in a vacuum, thinking the Pope is scum (f.e.) is foolish. The only problem, of course, is that the hitlist mafia can probably false claim at will, but the doomsday mafia have no such ability. And ultimately, I would argue that there are likely some roles that can be verified more from their name than without. See Jimmy Carter.
2) It provides more proof. Obviously, it doesn't validate the entire claim, but my original point was that with a vanilla claim, you don't have anything else to go with. I said nothing about validating, say, a cop claim.
And furthermore, the problem with not asking for names that nobody has hit upon is that the mafia can just all claim vanilla and not be checked. Sure, eventually they'll come under the blacklight, but that won't happen until the town has weeded out its "questionable" claims, which any setup should have for balance, and by then it may be too late. How do you intend to solve this problem?
I have every right to disagree, if I am a player in this game. Your own viewpoint is no more valid than mine, so stop spouting it as such. What more, if someone intends to wield said wordings against me in the first place, then feel free to engage me in an argument.
Well, clearly, I disagree. Relativism is all well and good, but what you are trying to do here is completely shirk on the proposition that you were asking for a mass claim. I am happy to put forward here that your "opinion" is completely wrong, especially in the face of what you actually said.
I mean, how much more suspect can you BE. You asked the town "for their opinions" on a mass-claim. That's even worse than coming out and saying it, because in the event that the whole town calls you out on it, like happened here, you set yourself a convenient escape route. Well, you know what? Townies don't need to leave themselves escape routes.
I now challenge you on your statement. You implied that I am a scum without the innocent investigation on me. Then in your mind, there must be a case for it. State that case, under the pretense the investigation doesn't exist. I find it utterly disturbing that you would openly hint I am scum but then dismiss it by quoting the investigation result. Is that a probing attack on me?
No, that is a "god, I wish you were not cleared".
And asking me for a case is quite simple - you're asking the town for a mass-claim, in a game where this is quite clearly not a townie move, (well, clear for most players in this game, but not you, it would seem :rolleyes:) and you've been throwing your innocent investigation around like Captain America's shield. Don't say you're not doing it, because your blase "well if you're going to insinuate, make a case on me" wouldn't irritate me if you weren't doing it. Your "put up or shut up" mentality exhibited in your last post only proves my point.
I play mafia by adopting my opponents' mindset. Insinuate all you want.
Yeah, but the way you've been doing it this game, with gaping assumptions, is not a townie tell. Unless you have inside information confirming your points, then you really aren't qualified to be judging the mafia mindset. There are a lot of less experienced players in this game that might agree with your logic simply because it looks good on the outside, as well as the possibility that the mafia simply do not follow the same thought patterns as you.
Wait till you see when I'm angry. You'll find such posts quadrupled with words and words and words.
First of all, I assumed the mass claims thing was a major issue of contention with regards to me. I then presented to the town my rationale behind it and why I asked for it. It seemed smart-ass because I firmly believed what I posted.
Secondly, if you don't like parts of it or perceived parts of it as inaccurate or overly assuming, you may state your opinions. That doesn't give you the right to make a personal attack against me like that. If anything, it portrayed you as overly arrogant in stamping out opinions that contradicted your own as if they are worthless. That equally annoy the hell out of me. There is a difference between "discounting your opinion because I'm being an ass" and "discounting your opinion because it clearly flies in the face of the facts". Guess which one I'm using. Your suppositions are wrong, and the thread supports that. You DID ask for a mass-claim, in effect, and you ARE trying in a decidedly scummy fashion to discount this notion, but either way, the thread speaks for itself.
Your behavior today is suspicious in the following ways.
1. You asked for a mass-claim, and then tried to distance yourself from it when the town strongly disagreed with your specious logic.
2. You asked in such a way that if by some miracle we agreed, that when it went horrendously wrong for the town, you could still claim "hey, I only asked for people's opinions. It wasn't ME that instigated the death of the town! Really, it wasn't!"
4. Your suppositions regarding dual mafia play strategy reek strongly of inside knowledge in this game.
5. The way in which you seem to be expecting everyone to hunt scum the same way as you, or at least not disagree with all of the behavioral assumptions that you are making this game. You are often wrong this game, Dagger, at least in my opinion. Throwing relativism at me, when referring to something that you are clearly wrong about, irrespective of your opinion on the matter, will not make it go away.
6. You're disagreeing with me. That makes you scum, no matter what investigation is on you.
Good idea. Doesn't mean that getting names isn't useful. I still adamantly believe that you are misunderstanding the aims of the Hitlist Mafia.
I've said this in virtually every game. Names, in a properly designed game, do not, and CANNOT, be used to clear people. Period. If so, it's like having another masonry.
Give Stormblind some credit for not designing a broken game. Even if I accepted your premise that Bush couldn't be scum (which I don't for reasons of both flavor AND game design), there is absolutely no reason to assume that such a name couldn't be a mod-provided safe claim.
I'd lynch Gandhi in this game if I had a solid case. Given the possible nature of the hitlist mafia, there shouldn't be any more name claiming. That's been the will of the town. For you to violate that means you are acting in an anti-town fashion, and there will be consequences.
@AKid - I asked you earlier who/what else stuck out on your re-read.
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Karmoderm is replaced by a long missing player of moderate repute.
Let us re-Welcome the player Swinkee to MTGS as a replacement for Karmoderm.
Let this stand as a warning, i do not accept 5 day disappearances without warning / some form of contact.
I think I'm supposed to resent that remark. I mean, it's true, but I think I need to resent it on some kind of moral basis.
Now, I should probably start reading this so I know what is going on.
Proud worshipper of TFE.
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See now, that's the kind of statement that makes no sense. Right now, you're under a fair amount of suspicion already, but jumping in and saying "lynch <player>" right after someone replaces into the game, even if it's done as a flippant remark (and I don't see any or <sarcasm> tags that would indicate that was your intention) is just... well... irrational?
My read on it is you're trying very very hard to distract the active players from something, and that makes me feel real confident about my current hunch on Dagger.
Vote on Dagger stands, though if AKid is brought up into potential lynch range, I would have no problem with switching my vote to him. He's the #2 man on my scum list at the moment.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Care to present a case stronger than a hunch?
I don't expect people to follow me like they would if this were... say... a Cyan hunch, but I think I've gotten the correct read here.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
AKid is trying to distract us from Dagger? You honestly believe this?
Potential lynch range is L-x, where x = what exactly?
Ya, but if you feel it is correct and don't expect people to follow you, especially because you don't want to present a case, what's the point?
As for potential lynch range, I'd switch my vote to put pressure on him in order to force a claim from him, but with 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch, and I don't think anyone is anywhere close to the current 6 or 7 vote claim threshold. Actually I don't think anybody's got more than 3 votes on them.
Mod? May we have a vote count please?
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
One of the things you based your hunch on was Dagger asking the mod something during his time-out Day Two.
I ask you again, where does he say this? I can't find it but I'm prepared to be proven wrong.
Better question, why is asking the mod a question suspicious behavior?
Then why not just vote him instead? I fail to see why we go after a less suspicious target when there's a more suspicious target. Not to mention that target one has a cop-confirmation. Why not just go for target 2, then back to target one after we see what happens after target 2's lynch?
If you and Akid have been the center attention, why cast a vote on a hunch, now? I understand things need to happen, but present a case at least...
Have you considered the fact that most players generally regard me as a paranoid nutjob when it comes to Mafia games? People don't take my opinions seriously, even if there is evidence to back it up. I don't have legitimacy. So about the best thing I can do is point out something that I think is wrong, and let everyone else decide for themselves if they want to ignore me or not.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Fascinating, did not know at all.
So you are the opposite Cyan? Cyan will say the same thing in 1 line - like "vote XYZ for ub3r 1337 justice" and lynch that person. And you will form a solid case thats iron-clad especially because there's like 4 people left with 1 scum and the 3 townies remaining are confirmed masons including the cop, doctor, and you, and they will still lynch you regardless.
"Dagger is suspicious because he's asking the mod a question"
No, those sound like statements coming from a completely lucid individual.
And Pale mage?
Yeah, I started to post, then ran to work (arriving late) and then came home, and thought of posting something completely different (after noticing Bil's overly blatant fishing, which in my opinion is often a lynch-worthy offence when dealing with a cop-cleared townie, when there are so many other leads, such as tilde or AK, at least from his perspective...)
I could have worded it better, perhaps.
I can't find it.
1) There are two opposed scum teams here, we don't know if AKid and Dagger are Scum buddies, Scum rivals, one town and one scum or both town. Lynching one won't neccesarily give us intel on the other.
2) Dagger mentioned that he knows how I think as scum since he's played as a scumbuddy of mine. That info runs both ways, and in my opinion he's giving his "scum tell" in this game.
3) If I were to vote AKid at this point, he'd immediately respond by saying it's an OMGUS vote (and he'd be somewhat right). That hurts what little credibility I might have.
4) As for the "mod question" thing, Looking back I see that Dagger never actually "asked the mod something", but rather this:
Follwed by this:
He never answered DYH's question about whether or not it was helpful, nor has he mentioned what it was he wanted to reread, and Dagger promptly shut down PM and Bilbroxain when they inquired about it. I interpreted all of that as it being some sort of PM communication between him and the mod which was not to be discussed, I for one am unsure of what Dagger might have picked up in his reread that he'd want to keep to himself. Especially since as a cop-cleared player, he's a prime kill target for the scum, and if he happens to die, well, that info dies with him.
edit while writing:
Check out what happened when I got lynched in Kung-Fu mafia. I was a mason, who gained a 1-shot vig ability when my mason partner died, and I tried to take out the (bulletproof) GF with it. The town promptly strung me up after I pleaded with them that Hawkeye (who had claimed vanilla town) wasn't vanilla.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
No one claimed mason right away. I claimed mason pretty recently. Descoures was my partner. Two man mason group.
Care to explain what his scum tell is? You'd have a better chance of people taking you seriously if you'd be clear and thorough about the reasons behind your suspicions.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
It was NOT a scumlist in the way you imply, hell. How many times must I repeat that statement?
I was entertaining the notion that JSexy was attacking Bilb as an attempt to distance, as what DYH did to CM in Code Geass Mafia. The other five I deemed worthy to do rereads on based on the general feel of their postings. As for why some were dropped, partly subsequent postings they made caused me to re-question my original intuition AND partly role-sensitive info, tyvm.
I disagree. It is not the same thing. You'll find towns and scums word their phrases differently, depending on their motivation and intention. As for why I felt the need to clarify, it's because certain quarters usually feel compelled to use such misunderstanding to push forward their own agenda. Confirmed or not, I am displeased when people tried to misrepresent me and twist my words to suit their own infernal purposes.
Also, classic scum tell? Where did you pull that one out of? What's the purpose of interrogating and questioning for responses when you are going to give an answer first anyway so that whomever was being asked knew how to give a "safe answer"?
I'm bloody experienced as a scum, tyvm. If I am a mafioso, I usually live to the endgame or one of the last few scums to die. And I've been SK twice, even winning as one once.
In what way suspicious?
Thank you, but it was not a gambit. I really want responses and I don't think everyone responded to it? Maybe it was too suspicious for them to bite it. Heh.
If you are so interested in a case on me, why not just do a reread on me? Why set up Tilde as the scapegoat so that attacks on me could be perceived as coming from him?
I don't recall SoP name-claiming? As for Some One, it was because Xyre was the one pushing it with his vig-threat. I deemed that perfectly excusable for him since at that point, he's cleared in my book and I interpreted his action as being drunken on his capacity to kill. There's not much point anyway in being indignant about it when there were others decrying his actions already.
I'll tell you why. It was to clarify on my role's mechanics. Anything further, you would have to get me to Lynch -2 first.
Reactions. I deduce people's alignment from reactions.
More to come later.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
That's the reason I'm reluctant to share that info. As in poker, so in Mafia, you don't point out to a player which tell you may have picked up on.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
LOL, seems Dagger really did ask the mod something during that time out.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Proud worshipper of TFE.
You want me to claim?
That'll certainly get things going.
Which was precisely why I told Karmoderm (swinkee) that I would explain my reason before the day is over, which as I recall is not even near over yet.
Ah, so you can indeed put into words my tell. I don't really care to know, except that it'll be proven to yourself said tell is a red herring when I turn up really confirmed as town.
To clarify, the primary purpose of the time-out is to get some rereads in. But I did indeed clarify with SB during that period about the mechanics of my role. I hardly need several hours just to ask a single question.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
In a normal game of mafia, both town and scums have similar opinions on mass claim. Town abhors it unless there is a good reason. Scums want it, but openly abhors it because it is the politically correct answer to appear as a town. (I remember asking someone about the politically correct answer to a mass claim and don't remember receiving a reply)
In this game, which has the more rare setup of two mafia families, opinions are slightly different. Again, town abhors it unless there is a good reason. Here, scums equally abhor mass claim because they will be forced to reveal themselves to the other mafia family while not guaranteed to receive only the truth from the others which have claimed. It's not a double-edged sword anymore. It's more like a sword which will harm them more often than not. Claim vanilla and risk getting lynched. Claim power role and risk getting NKed by the other team.
Therefore, while we cannot determine absolutely the alignment of those who are openly against mass claim, the logic is that those who are more receptive to a mass claim have a higher probability of being town. Town have less inhibition to mass claim because they are not afraid of the truth and they usually have nothing to hide from the rest of the town. So then, what's a good reason to a town for a mass claim? When it's very difficult for a town to properly identify a scum, which is valid in this game.
So far, we have two other people in this game who are receptive to a mass claim: the claimed mason and the claimed vig. While this doesn't really give any real information, it secures my confidence that both of those are town. As for those who didn't reply to my question on mass claim, maybe they are too cautious to actually reply to it because they fear giving the "wrong answer"?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I am NOT interested in the case on you, Dagger. I think it's crap. I'm engaging Tilde on this so I can figure him out.
The thing is, knowing that little posting is not beneficial for the town, can you at all defend Karmoderm's behavior of not posting much on topic, not really actively participating, etc?
[The Family]
It goes beyond your wording. Your actions fight the ideas you proposed in that post. In fact if I were to read that post in a vacuum it seems like you don't really care which of those three (Tilde, AKid, or Bilbro) we lynch today.
Do you still see Xyre as likely scum? You seemed hot to do a PBPA on him earlier. I don't recall seeing it or a statement that your opinion had changed.
Fair enough.
It's horribly convenient, however, if he is scum.
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
What is that even referring to?
Bolded is the reference
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
I believe he was simply wanting to know what Stormblind had to say about Gomery flavor-wise, since swinkee is from Canada and Gomery is a Canadian judge. I expect he was meaning after the game is done, not that he needed to see it immediately for something game related.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
And, in all honesty, I don't really care about which of those three hangs.
Tilde is acting like himself (which in some people's opinions is a reason to lynch in itself - but this game, he really has made some incredibly silly statements)
AK is, well, full of suspiciously timed deflections today,
And Bilbro? Well, he had no reason to ask dagger what he was asking the mod about - that was essentially the same as asking him for a claim, as...well, what else would dagger have been doing aside from asking about an ability of some kind? Dagger answering him would be the same as claiming a power role. Which is not cool at all.
I just have found it hard to really get behind a lynch today. I'm reasonably busy at university and work, but I could have made the time if I really, really tried.
I just haven't had the motivation, to be perfectly honest. The same as most of the other players in this game, but, well, at least I'm willing to admit it, instead of blaming faulty internet connections.
What? I made that post already. I certainly hope you don't mean your post of content. So what do you want?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
This accusation keeps coming up, and I'd really like for someone to actually explain what exactly AK is or has been deflecting from?
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
If anything, this game has shown that townies are as likely if not more likely to ask for this stuff without floating it past the town first than anyone else. You on the other hand just sound insincere, pedantic and incredibly scummy in your attempts to distance yourself from this. Without that innocent investigation, man...
I'm fully aware that you're not a noob scum, Dagger - I played with you during Matrix, remember - I was insinuating there that your "speaking from experience" refers to front row seats - that is, it sounds like you are speaking from first-hand experience this game. I may be an ******* sometimes, but I'm not one to openly lie about someone's experience.
For this, my replies are bolded.
Your logic here is seriously flawed.
Okay, dagger, here's the deal.
Stop acting like a smart-ass, please. Or, at least make sense if you're going to do it regardless. Players like you, that flip the town the bird upon being confirmed, annoy the hell out of me.
You won't like me when I'm angry.
(Sorry, watched hulk 2 this morning, and couldn't resist. )
I have every right to disagree, if I am a player in this game. Your own viewpoint is no more valid than mine, so stop spouting it as such. What more, if someone intends to wield said wordings against me in the first place, then feel free to engage me in an argument.
I now challenge you on your statement. You implied that I am a scum without the innocent investigation on me. Then in your mind, there must be a case for it. State that case, under the pretense the investigation doesn't exist. I find it utterly disturbing that you would openly hint I am scum but then dismiss it by quoting the investigation result. Is that a probing attack on me?
I play mafia by adopting my opponents' mindset. Insinuate all you want.
Wait till you see when I'm angry. You'll find such posts quadrupled with words and words and words.
First of all, I assumed the mass claims thing was a major issue of contention with regards to me. I then presented to the town my rationale behind it and why I asked for it. It seemed smart-ass because I firmly believed what I posted.
Secondly, if you don't like parts of it or perceived parts of it as inaccurate or overly assuming, you may state your opinions. That doesn't give you the right to make a personal attack against me like that. If anything, it portrayed you as overly arrogant in stamping out opinions that contradicted your own as if they are worthless. That equally annoy the hell out of me.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I think it would be safe to say that, oh, George Bush isn't scum. And with a vanilla townie, because it's such an easy claim for scum to fake, the role name is the best chance you have at verification.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
1) Well, in a vacuum, thinking the Pope is scum (f.e.) is foolish. The only problem, of course, is that the hitlist mafia can probably false claim at will, but the doomsday mafia have no such ability. And ultimately, I would argue that there are likely some roles that can be verified more from their name than without. See Jimmy Carter.
2) It provides more proof. Obviously, it doesn't validate the entire claim, but my original point was that with a vanilla claim, you don't have anything else to go with. I said nothing about validating, say, a cop claim.
And furthermore, the problem with not asking for names that nobody has hit upon is that the mafia can just all claim vanilla and not be checked. Sure, eventually they'll come under the blacklight, but that won't happen until the town has weeded out its "questionable" claims, which any setup should have for balance, and by then it may be too late. How do you intend to solve this problem?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
[The Family]
Do you still want AKid or are you implying something else?
Good idea. Doesn't mean that getting names isn't useful. I still adamantly believe that you are misunderstanding the aims of the Hitlist Mafia.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
Your behavior today is suspicious in the following ways.
1. You asked for a mass-claim, and then tried to distance yourself from it when the town strongly disagreed with your specious logic.
2. You asked in such a way that if by some miracle we agreed, that when it went horrendously wrong for the town, you could still claim "hey, I only asked for people's opinions. It wasn't ME that instigated the death of the town! Really, it wasn't!"
4. Your suppositions regarding dual mafia play strategy reek strongly of inside knowledge in this game.
5. The way in which you seem to be expecting everyone to hunt scum the same way as you, or at least not disagree with all of the behavioral assumptions that you are making this game. You are often wrong this game, Dagger, at least in my opinion. Throwing relativism at me, when referring to something that you are clearly wrong about, irrespective of your opinion on the matter, will not make it go away.
6. You're disagreeing with me. That makes you scum, no matter what investigation is on you.
I've said this in virtually every game. Names, in a properly designed game, do not, and CANNOT, be used to clear people. Period. If so, it's like having another masonry.
Give Stormblind some credit for not designing a broken game. Even if I accepted your premise that Bush couldn't be scum (which I don't for reasons of both flavor AND game design), there is absolutely no reason to assume that such a name couldn't be a mod-provided safe claim.
I'd lynch Gandhi in this game if I had a solid case. Given the possible nature of the hitlist mafia, there shouldn't be any more name claiming. That's been the will of the town. For you to violate that means you are acting in an anti-town fashion, and there will be consequences.
huh? Explain how I "misunderstood".
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia