I just want to say that I totally think LVPs have their place in this game, and I would be sorry to see them go. The mod has a better perspective on the game than any player, so it's nice to see what did the town the most harm, and not just for the player responsible.
I totally deserved the LVP I got recently in 24 Mafia, and I took it as a learning experience. Granted, it was very clear that I was the biggest contributing factor to the town losing without the mod pointing it out, but that won't always be the case and the mod should be allowed to put in his input.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Truth to be told, I am rather detached mentally from this game. After Day 1, I sort of just browsed through the Night thread whenever I could find the time to. It's rather hard to just read without being able to comment and it's equally hard to remember anything of significance that happened during the Night without actually being there to experience it. I just took it for granted that CP was confirmed during the Day seeing as he gave us investigation results and that Suth trusted him. And yeah, I accept the LVP. I guess I didn't think things through enough.
On a more humorous note, I find it interesting CP attacked me on Day 1 and ZDS attacked me on Day 2. It only serves to prove that only scums attack me. Remember that in future games.
Anyone playing in stereotype knows my stance on LVPs. Anyone who disagrees with LVPs but not on MVPs should stop being so damned politically correct.
LVP's are by no means universally accepted - they're just the opinions the creator of the game has on a particular player with regard to positions they are put in and the way they did or did not use their role. Nothing more. If people can't handle it, they shouldn't be playing mafia. Or leaving their house. Or using the internet.
@ Xyre: Better luck next time, dude. You already got a faceful of my criticisms via PM, so I'll spare you any more - the flavor in this game was, however, kick-ass. Good enough that (as long as I have a role with an actual win condition) I still plan to /in on your next game.
On the lvps: sometimes there are obvious incorrect plays in a game or correct ones and these usually lead to the vps in question, I however think what could also be constructive is players discussing their notes after the game. The mod could also take down some things that he sees to comment on later. basically what I'm saying is that not only the worst person needs criticism, even the best play could have often played better. And by being open after the game we can help the whole community grow in ability (in theory anyway).
examples from players: why scum attacked who they did when they did , why town attacked who they did when they did(though most of you explain during the game *glares* , explanations for night choices ect.
examples from the mod and mafia: When you know someones alignment its often easier to see things you otherwise wouldn't, pointing these out of both the scum and town.
I think that discussion like this would be better then the standard lvp/mvp stuff, but I don't necessarily think we should get rid of the mvp/lvp system if we every start doing this.
I wasn't reading this game after day1 though, so I've got nothing to offer.
Oh, and mad, mad props to DYH for making the game entertaining as hell. This one's for you, man.
Thanks
I honestly *hated* that role, but not for what it was, but mainly because we live in different time zones and operate on different schedules. I always wanted to say something right now - it's just the way I play, I post a lot.
The role itself was tremendously cool, just better served to a less active player, I think.
I don't think anyone noticed, but I faked my name claim to drop a hint as to who I was.
I think this game was brilliantly designed, and I love the constant game theory. Unfortunately a lot of lurkery caused major issues.
My thoughts on LVPs stay the same- talk about the game afterward, critique all you want, but there's a reason they don't hand out LVPs in sports, but they do MVPs. There's nothing to gain from pointing out - "hey, you were the weakest link". /shrug
I appreciate all the comments/criticisms, everyone. I think, considering the response, I'll skip LVPs next time around, because they're clearly contentious; I'd just operated that way for most of my games. I didn't realize how much of a problem they were.
@ StormBlind - yes, the mafia was good, but they were a minority (it was the same thing with Elegant mafia). Overall, the most they could ever hope for was 5 people. Some of the extra abilities they had (such as CP's ability to talk to LFR) were tacked on to make the mafia competitive. But yeah, there were a few townies who were purely problematic.
As for your comment on how choppy the setup was, especially with the "experimental roles" (especially the candidates), but that was my intention most of the time. Axel will testify to the number of screwy roles I came up with.
About the game: There were a few problems overall that I felt like were ready to kill the game. Wuff and Chimp's roles were one. Wuff mentioned briefly the nasty PM he sent me about everything that was happening, and the worst part was that, because the game was still going on, I had to bite my tongue and let things keep happening. Another issue was my general problem of forgetting votes or night actions here or there. Fortunately, unlike in my games on 'News, I didn't make any fatal errors, but that was always harrowing.
Not to add criticisms, but my role felt weak since i recruited only once every other cycle and my recruits werent loyal.
Then again, the cult should never be too strong.
it was a fun game xyre, and we're quite happy you were here to mod it.
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Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Yeah, I didn't say this before, but I loved the first couple of days. Everyone else seemed to just get pissed off as more and more random crap showed up, but things happening on day 1 and 2 was like a godsend to me.
Plus my favorite part of mafia is the roles. New ones are always a kick.
Loran: Yes, well, you did have the advantage of a townie win condition, which in my opinion gave you a bit of room to move.
In any event, I just went back and looked at my rules, and guess what I saw?
" (1b) Talking with anyone - yes, ANYONE - you're not allowed to talk with about the game. This includes dead players."
My largest aggravation with this game was that I had to modkill so many scum (yes, 2 is many). Couple that with Hyram killing chamber, and I was certain that the town would win. Sigh.
In the future, I think the biggest thing mods need to take from this game is that roles that discourage lynching and roles that amplify uncertainty should be used extremely sparingly. There was so much about this game that was 'secret' that oftentimes, even the people who were supposed to have a good grasp of what was going on rarely did.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Lol, I enjoyed this game although I am actually glad I misplayed day 1 after replacing in. I put a large amount of attention and effort into this game but I would not have been able to continue for as long as this game dragged on.
I still feel bad that an almost hammer vote made me mafia and slowed discussion down enough for an extra mafia kill to take me down. On the up-side, it pretty much caught the god-father with his pants down and gave the town a decent shot.
I tried following the game for a while after I died but I just lost interest.
I had fun replacing chamber for this game but I just dont enjoy mafia the way I used too.
It seems sort of silly to ridicule a company for marketing efforts. Of course they are going to hype upcoming products, every company on the face of the planet does it, and it works, thats why they do it. There isn't really any sense complaining about it. If you don't like the marketing, ignore it.
Anyone playing in stereotype knows my stance on LVPs. Anyone who disagrees with LVPs but not on MVPs should stop being so damned politically correct.
It has nothing to do with political correctness. It's about having a "you suck" award for your play in mafia. I don't play mafia here to be judged on how poorly I did.
As long as we attach significance to mvps, laps also "count".
It has nothing to do with political correctness. It's about having a "you suck" award for your play in mafia. I don't play mafia here to be judged on how poorly I did.
As long as we attach significance to mvps, laps also "count".
The way I view it, it's not a "you suck" award, it's a "you could have done better award". I for one think it's important for me to know how badly I did in a game so I can not use that strategy in the future (or whatnot). For example, in Verona, I was chosen as the Mafia LVP for throwing my teammate under a bus to save my own sorry ass, then getting killed by the other mafia. This taught me to play more conservatively as mafia.
My thoughts on LVPs stay the same- talk about the game afterward, critique all you want, but there's a reason they don't hand out LVPs in sports, but they do MVPs. There's nothing to gain from pointing out - "hey, you were the weakest link". /shrug
They do hand out LVPs in sports. It's called "dropping/firing your ass"
I'm sure RotTK was longer. That thing went on for about six months.
Well, this game was longer in number of posts. Just another in a long line of games that have grown increasingly long as the populace of the site gets more and more cautious.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Well, if it's number of posts you're judging by, I think you've still gotta give the title to God Mafia. Day one took over a thousand posts in that game, and the game as a whole probably would have gone to 3000-4000 had it run its full course.
Edit: Just looked up the exact figure. Day one ended in post #1284.
well thats proof that MTGS needs to go more agressive. all in all, i know that may have been long for you all, but it was entertaning to read all at once, save a little bit time consiming
Aggression generates MORE posts. Did you see Elegant Mafia, day 1? Did you see Cyan's post count in DotA?
It's not so much aggression that's needed to speed up games, so much as decisiveness.
And from the point of view of MTGS towns, it's not so much aggression or decisiveness needed to win, but rather to quit being as reliant on set-up analysis and claims.
I disagree in part. I absolutely agree that the town shouldn't be basing opinions on setup speculation, but claims are, and should be, a vital part of any lynch. This game isn't a good example, because there were claims that were far too good to be fair, but in general, most claims are indicative of alignment if you can work through the logic.
The problem arises when people's refusal to lynch is based solely on claims. "This person is suspicious, but there's a small chance that he could be useful if he's telling the truth, so we should keep him alive," is as scummy as any tactic there is, but the concept is too prevalent to count against anyone. People need to be more willing to follow through when there is no potential for certainty: case in point, Xyre and Cubus should have been the first two lynches of the game. Yes, that would have not been especially great for the town, but it would have been great for the game. Participation would have increased, and the game would have been tougher for the mafia as a result.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Anyway, I just would like to thank Xyre for a great game.
My rolename was funny, considering that I had no idea of the origin before I was told of it. It also boosted my confidence slightly that I managed to survive both Day 1 and 2 even while under intense pressure. And best of all, I get to use a Redirector, though it was extremely hard on deciding who to target each night being town. (I was actually worried that if I was forced to claim, the town would lynch me simply because my role)
i dont belive, in hindsight, aggeressive was the right word. decicive is probally much better for it. however also, less major lurkage helps gamesgoe faster too. ;-)
@ Xyre - Once more, allow me to apologize for my rudeness - you were quick to admit that you didn't design the roles correctly, and that was more than enough for me.
@ WOLG - Whatever, dude, a Neutral Survivor going so far out on a limb to kill (as far as most, if not all the town believed) other neutrals? I don't know what you were thinking, honestly. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
@ ZDS - QFT to the role revisions - though I believe xyre already said something like that before you did, heh.
@ LFR - As xyre said, it's a "play better next time" award, not a "you suck" award. It can only improve your play. Feedback on my play is almost always appreciated, as long as it's constructive. If I ever receive an LVP award, I certainly would respect the MODGOD's opinion, even if I disagree. MODGOD is, after all, in a unique position to judge such things.
Players that want to be told "they rule" but can't handle being told "how better to rule next time" shouldn't be using the internet.
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I totally deserved the LVP I got recently in 24 Mafia, and I took it as a learning experience. Granted, it was very clear that I was the biggest contributing factor to the town losing without the mod pointing it out, but that won't always be the case and the mod should be allowed to put in his input.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
On a more humorous note, I find it interesting CP attacked me on Day 1 and ZDS attacked me on Day 2. It only serves to prove that only scums attack me. Remember that in future games.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
LVP's are by no means universally accepted - they're just the opinions the creator of the game has on a particular player with regard to positions they are put in and the way they did or did not use their role. Nothing more. If people can't handle it, they shouldn't be playing mafia. Or leaving their house. Or using the internet.
@ Xyre: Better luck next time, dude. You already got a faceful of my criticisms via PM, so I'll spare you any more - the flavor in this game was, however, kick-ass. Good enough that (as long as I have a role with an actual win condition) I still plan to /in on your next game.
examples from players: why scum attacked who they did when they did , why town attacked who they did when they did(though most of you explain during the game *glares* , explanations for night choices ect.
examples from the mod and mafia: When you know someones alignment its often easier to see things you otherwise wouldn't, pointing these out of both the scum and town.
I think that discussion like this would be better then the standard lvp/mvp stuff, but I don't necessarily think we should get rid of the mvp/lvp system if we every start doing this.
I wasn't reading this game after day1 though, so I've got nothing to offer.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Thanks
I honestly *hated* that role, but not for what it was, but mainly because we live in different time zones and operate on different schedules. I always wanted to say something right now - it's just the way I play, I post a lot.
The role itself was tremendously cool, just better served to a less active player, I think.
I don't think anyone noticed, but I faked my name claim to drop a hint as to who I was.
I think this game was brilliantly designed, and I love the constant game theory. Unfortunately a lot of lurkery caused major issues.
My thoughts on LVPs stay the same- talk about the game afterward, critique all you want, but there's a reason they don't hand out LVPs in sports, but they do MVPs. There's nothing to gain from pointing out - "hey, you were the weakest link". /shrug
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
@ StormBlind - yes, the mafia was good, but they were a minority (it was the same thing with Elegant mafia). Overall, the most they could ever hope for was 5 people. Some of the extra abilities they had (such as CP's ability to talk to LFR) were tacked on to make the mafia competitive. But yeah, there were a few townies who were purely problematic.
As for your comment on how choppy the setup was, especially with the "experimental roles" (especially the candidates), but that was my intention most of the time. Axel will testify to the number of screwy roles I came up with.
About the game: There were a few problems overall that I felt like were ready to kill the game. Wuff and Chimp's roles were one. Wuff mentioned briefly the nasty PM he sent me about everything that was happening, and the worst part was that, because the game was still going on, I had to bite my tongue and let things keep happening. Another issue was my general problem of forgetting votes or night actions here or there. Fortunately, unlike in my games on 'News, I didn't make any fatal errors, but that was always harrowing.
Ah well. There's always next time.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
Then again, the cult should never be too strong.
it was a fun game xyre, and we're quite happy you were here to mod it.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Plus my favorite part of mafia is the roles. New ones are always a kick.
In any event, I just went back and looked at my rules, and guess what I saw?
" (1b) Talking with anyone - yes, ANYONE - you're not allowed to talk with about the game. This includes dead players."
My largest aggravation with this game was that I had to modkill so many scum (yes, 2 is many). Couple that with Hyram killing chamber, and I was certain that the town would win. Sigh.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
I still feel bad that an almost hammer vote made me mafia and slowed discussion down enough for an extra mafia kill to take me down. On the up-side, it pretty much caught the god-father with his pants down and gave the town a decent shot.
I tried following the game for a while after I died but I just lost interest.
I had fun replacing chamber for this game but I just dont enjoy mafia the way I used too.
It has nothing to do with political correctness. It's about having a "you suck" award for your play in mafia. I don't play mafia here to be judged on how poorly I did.
As long as we attach significance to mvps, laps also "count".
The way I view it, it's not a "you suck" award, it's a "you could have done better award". I for one think it's important for me to know how badly I did in a game so I can not use that strategy in the future (or whatnot). For example, in Verona, I was chosen as the Mafia LVP for throwing my teammate under a bus to save my own sorry ass, then getting killed by the other mafia. This taught me to play more conservatively as mafia.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
They do hand out LVPs in sports. It's called "dropping/firing your ass"
Well, this game was longer in number of posts. Just another in a long line of games that have grown increasingly long as the populace of the site gets more and more cautious.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
Edit: Just looked up the exact figure. Day one ended in post #1284.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
It's not so much aggression that's needed to speed up games, so much as decisiveness.
And from the point of view of MTGS towns, it's not so much aggression or decisiveness needed to win, but rather to quit being as reliant on set-up analysis and claims.
The problem arises when people's refusal to lynch is based solely on claims. "This person is suspicious, but there's a small chance that he could be useful if he's telling the truth, so we should keep him alive," is as scummy as any tactic there is, but the concept is too prevalent to count against anyone. People need to be more willing to follow through when there is no potential for certainty: case in point, Xyre and Cubus should have been the first two lynches of the game. Yes, that would have not been especially great for the town, but it would have been great for the game. Participation would have increased, and the game would have been tougher for the mafia as a result.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
My rolename was funny, considering that I had no idea of the origin before I was told of it. It also boosted my confidence slightly that I managed to survive both Day 1 and 2 even while under intense pressure. And best of all, I get to use a Redirector, though it was extremely hard on deciding who to target each night being town. (I was actually worried that if I was forced to claim, the town would lynch me simply because my role)
Many thanks!
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
@ WOLG - Whatever, dude, a Neutral Survivor going so far out on a limb to kill (as far as most, if not all the town believed) other neutrals? I don't know what you were thinking, honestly. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
@ ZDS - QFT to the role revisions - though I believe xyre already said something like that before you did, heh.
@ LFR - As xyre said, it's a "play better next time" award, not a "you suck" award. It can only improve your play. Feedback on my play is almost always appreciated, as long as it's constructive. If I ever receive an LVP award, I certainly would respect the MODGOD's opinion, even if I disagree. MODGOD is, after all, in a unique position to judge such things.
Players that want to be told "they rule" but can't handle being told "how better to rule next time" shouldn't be using the internet.