Loran: Can you unFOS people that you had to FOS? If you can't answer don't, but if its not stated iin your role pm, it may be worth asking the mod about.
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MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
As several of you noticed, Unvote Vote Pod committed the serious crime of editing one of his posts.
May I remind all players that it is NEVER acceptable to edit or delete posts.
You will note, however, that my game rules make no reference to a compulsory modkill for any particular misdemeanour. In this particular case having reviewed the timestamps on the edit and all relevant posts I am inclined to be lenient and allow Unvote Vote Pod to continue play. He was under a lot of time pressure at that point and it seems fairly clear to me that the edit was a careless oversight which did not impact the game significantly.
Any player who feels the gameplay has been disrupted may appeal this decision by PM to me.
This is not a "second chance" and nor does it set precedent. Each rules infraction will be judged independently with the best interests of the game as the primary criterion.
OK, you may resume play now.
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
After thinkin' it over, I think I be buyin' this claim, at least as far as I believe UVP has the ability he says he does. But I'm far from convinced that havin' that there ability makes the fellow town. It seems too powerful to give to a scurvy mafia dog, but it could be on a limited SK, especially if he had other abilities he weren't tellin' us about.
Regardless, I be wantin' an explanation fer this:
Quote from UVP »
Decided to sneak around last night because I don't know what implications it might've had.
First, unvote since I just realized my votes been pretty uselessly sitting on Kenji for a while.
Second, I pretty much agree with arimnaes' impression of UVP's role.
Third, now that I think about it, it makes equally little sense for mafia to say they went sneaking night 1 as it does town so it doesn't really indicate either way. Both sides were informed that there was no locations night 0 in the same way so while the sneaking around bit is impossible, mafia would know that too, so while it makes no sense it's not really scummy and I thus retract my support for a UVP lynch. Nevertheless, I would still like to hear an explanation on it.
First of all, why would a SK be RESTRICTED? A SK is already outnumbered by the mafia. Second of all, the flavor in this game gives me the impression there are only two groups (Crown and Traitors, ie. Town and Mafia)
Third of all, how in the heck would I benefit from sneaking around?
Fourth of all, I have already said I will be at the Docks tonight or I can be Beyond the City Walls if anybody wants to confirm my role.
Fifth of all, I had no idea what any idea of locations did last night. For all I knew, mafia could've only killed people in the Royal Library or whatever. I had no idea whether choosing a location, or choosing which location, would help town, or mafia, so I decided to sneak around, which would impact neither.
Sixth of all, I'm surprised more people are not looking at Zchinque:
First, I should say that I do not like to be called a liar. However, I don't think that is going to matter much, in any way.
I am actually surprised that this has not been brought up before, as I, in hindsight, consider it to be one of two glaring mistakes on my behalf. (The other was saying I would be at the docks, then doing a 180 about it.)
I shall try to explain myself as best I can.
Between the time of my PBPA (post #375) and the time of my unvote (~24 hours later, in post #396) the general concensus seemed to be that the UVP-case was uninteresting, when compared to the also ongoing Nom_Anor-case.
This post was an important factor when it came to my unvoting of UVP. I decided, as I said in post #464 where I revoted UVP, that I should unvote so that people could present their case against N_A. I was willing to drop the wagon on UVP for the time being (as I said in post #396), to give way for another wagon which was more interesting to the town.
I did not say that I was no longer suspicious of UVP, and I did not hop onto the N_A wagon myself.
In hindsight, I realize that I should not have unvoted UVP at all, at least not as long as I wasn't willing to commit myself to the N_A case.
I would also like to point out that I went back to voting UVP as soon as I could, after the N_A case had died down.
You're right. It isn't good neough for me. It makes no sense for you to unvote me, especially when the words you chose that I had explained myself well enough implied that you suspicion of me had died down. How does your vote being on me hinder people from presenting their case against Nom_Anor? Your logic here makes no sense as there was no need for you to unvote and you unvoting did nothing to help the Nom_Anor wagon.
If I understand things correctly about UVP's claimed ability, it is now next to useless for the town.
If UVP can only kill those that are voting/fosing him at the end of the day, the scum will most likely just not vote/fos him at all, or make sure to unvote/unfos before nightfall. As will everyone else, I am sure.
If I misunderstood something here, I hope that UVP will clear it up for me.
Pretty sure we can pressure people into voting me at the end of the day if we want them dead.
Fifth of all, I had no idea what any idea of locations did last night. For all I knew, mafia could've only killed people in the Royal Library or whatever. I had no idea whether choosing a location, or choosing which location, would help town, or mafia, so I decided to sneak around, which would impact neither.
Um. So does this mean that he is scum, or just exceptionally foolish? Even after like 3 people comment on how nobody had locations yesterday, he still claims that he chose to sneak around.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I'm tempted to say "exceptionally foolish," given the rest of his explanations. But I still don't find the claim convincing enough (especially since neither part of the role is necessarily townish), and I don't think we should be getting in the habit of letting seemingly foolish people off the hook, since there's still a decent probability that he's lying.
First of all, why would a SK be RESTRICTED? A SK is already outnumbered by the mafia.
First of all, Why would you take the wine in front of you?
Quote from UVPod »
Second of all, the flavor in this game gives me the impression there are only two groups (Crown and Traitors, ie. Town and Mafia)
That is a sweeping assumption to make, and one which I am positive that you have absolutely NO evidence to support. You are gaming the mod, man, and you are making me more inclined to believe that Wuffles hit the nail on the head.
Quote from UVPod »
Third of all, how in the heck would I benefit from sneaking around?
Refer to Chimp's post above.
Quote from UVPod »
Fourth of all, I have already said I will be at the Docks tonight or I can be Beyond the City Walls if anybody wants to confirm my role.
See Below.
Quote from UVPod »
Fifth of all, I had no idea what any idea of locations did last night. For all I knew, mafia could've only killed people in the Royal Library or whatever. I had no idea whether choosing a location, or choosing which location, would help town, or mafia, so I decided to sneak around, which would impact neither.
If you read higher, you'd know that there were no locations Night 0. As chimp said, this isn't really a point for or against you.
Quote from UVPod »
Sixth of all, I'm surprised more people are not looking at Zchinque:
... Why haven't we lynched you yet? Deflection is an incredibly scummy tactic, the least you could do is come up with a convincing case. To be honest, it reeks of desperation.
Quote from UVPod »
You're right. It isn't good enough for me. It makes no sense for you to unvote me, especially when the words you chose that I had explained myself well enough implied that you suspicion of me had died down. How does your vote being on me hinder people from presenting their case against Nom_Anor? Your logic here makes no sense as there was no need for you to unvote and you unvoting did nothing to help the Nom_Anor wagon.
Actually, this is a decent point.
Quote from UVPod »
Pretty sure we can pressure people into voting me at the end of the day if we want them dead.
To be honest, I really kinda want you dead. In the unlikely event that you aren't lynched today, I'm happy for you to either go to the docks, or to go to Beyond to kill me at night. I'll even volunteer leave my vote on you.
I still don't find the claim convincing enough (especially since neither part of the role is necessarily townish), and I don't think we should be getting in the habit of letting seemingly foolish people off the hook, since there's still a decent probability that he's lying.
In the interests of being a bit more constructive, while the only person with votes besides UVP is Salubrious, it may be worth taking a look at Zchinque. UVP did get an interesting admission out of him. I might see about a PBPA late tonight.
fade: Me personally? No, because I want to get my PBPA out on Zchinque. But your vote won't end the day anyway unless it counts triple or quadruple or something, so go right ahead. You don't need my permission to put your vote where your arguments are
You're right. It isn't good neough for me. It makes no sense for you to unvote me, especially when the words you chose that I had explained myself well enough implied that you suspicion of me had died down. How does your vote being on me hinder people from presenting their case against Nom_Anor? Your logic here makes no sense as there was no need for you to unvote and you unvoting did nothing to help the Nom_Anor wagon.
You are quite correct. I have already said that, in hindsight, I should not have unvoted you.
Again, I would like to refer to something CP posted, that was a factor when it came to my unvoting.
It's that I think that the case against NA is stronger, and we can't seriously pursue multiple bandwagons at the same time.
By this I do not mean that CP is in any way responsible, or to blame, for my actions.
Notice what CP says about multiple bandwagons. At the time the town seemed to be more interested in a NA wagon. Because of this, I, wrongly, figured that getting off the bandwagon on you, there would be more "room" for the NA wagon, so to speak.
Yes, I made a mistake. Now I am trying to own up to that, and explain myself as well as I can.
@fade and everyone else: I suggest not hammering until RafK has presented his PBPA of me.
@Rafk: I am looking forward to the PBPA, and I shall answer any questions and points against me to the best of my abilities.
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Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Picross 3D
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Raf: I must've double counted someone because I thought there were already 10. But whatever. I'll wait at least until after you've presented your PBPA.
Actually, Chimp, he mentioned finals before, which doesnt fit the very French Puzzle. He's not Puzzle.
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Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I do feel it's someone a bit more experienced than the tone he/she is putting on, but the absence rules out Puzzle- Puzzle was definitely on site during that time. And it doesn't read like him anyway.
Well, I talked to the real Pod, and he told me it definitely isn't Puzzle. Not that I didn't pretty much know that already, play styles don't match up. Puzzle is pretty damn good from what I've seen...
Well, I talked to the real Pod, and he told me it definitely isn't Puzzle. Not that I didn't pretty much know that already, play styles don't match up. Puzzle is pretty damn good from what I've seen...
Coiled Flame maybe?
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By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
Quote from kingcobweb »
I don't understand the purpose of gimmick accounts.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Not that it's especially relevant, but I don't really see why why Alfred would gimmick an account. Of course, if it did turn out to be him, I'd push this bandwagon a lot harder than I am. As for Coiled_Flame or anyone else on the blacklist, bat said he knew who it was, so those people aren't possibilities. My current best guess is Billking.
I'm going to stay on the UVP wagon for now because I don't think there's been a good reason to get off. The points made against him still stand; the only new point for him is that he might just be thick, but I just don't see where that gives him an excuse to get off, even for a day. We know that he's fairly experienced, and we know that it's easy to pretend like you don't understand an argument. As a result, this point is too WIFOM to let slide, and there isn't much else that speaks for him. I'm happy to wait a bit if the town wants to look at Z, in order to determine which case is stronger, but I said before that we can't pursue multiple bandwagons at once. I'll be quite annoyed if this turns into God Mafia Day 1, where the person who's closest to being lynched repeatedly gets off because everyone has to air their suspicions about others before the day ends, starting a brand new wagon in the process, regardless of which case is better.
One nice thing, though, is that the constant swinging of momentum this day has brought had really exposed some chronic bandwagonners. They're sneaking up on my list.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Honestly, whoever U.V.P. is, that person is gaining quite an advantage by hiding behind a gimmick - the advantage being that he is impossible to read through playstyle.
I really can't think of a reason why this person has to hide behind a damn gimmick.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1619224#post1619224
Discussion about who gets told what about where people are at night. Claims that he doesn't see how we can spot mafia through "directing traffic", ie. cp's plan of announcing where people will be in advance.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1620493#post1620493
Skips straight away from the previous without further response- which I found interesting, since before Nom Anor I don't know that we really had a focussed plan for how we were going to organise stuff, but Zchinque never said whether or not he was satisfied by cp's reply or not or whether he agreed or disagreed. Like he didn't actually care about the answer.
Anyway, the actual post is asking Loran to explain his FOSes, which was fair enough.
-Calls his "defence" sketchy- as I said slightly lower in the thread in response to Kenji, I didn't think Sutherlands really had something major to defend at that point, so there wasn't really a defence to BE sketchy unless you wanted to paint something that way.
-The point of the "defence" that stood out to him was something Sutherlands said about loran... which actually isn't in defence of Sutherlands at all. It's one thing to think Sutherlands had a weak argument about loran, but that's not part of his "defence" at all.... it just seems like an effort to make it look like there's more momentum against Sutherlands than there really was.
-Blatant useless speculation about loran.
-Doesn't actually vote Sutherlands (albeit because he wants more discussion)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1622647#post1622647
Returns to the fray after fadeblue does his backflip on Sutherlands. Tries to keep the Sutherlands wagon going (although not the only person who did that). Tries to fish a bit, asking Sutherlands why the mafia would want to kill the trainee instead of killing Sutherlands.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1622934#post1622934
Keeps trying to get info from Sutherlands about the trainee. My issue with this whole line of questioning is that if you think he's mafia, you don't need to know this stuff since it's BS and if you think he's town you don't need to know this stuff since it should be secret, so you don't actually need to know- unless you're mafia and you're trying to work out who needs to be killed first.
Specifically, to arimnaes putting forth the Nom Anor wagon, because heavens forbid a mafia draw attention to themselves by starting a wagon themselves and having to put forward actual arguments.
At this point, Zchinque has only made one post with arguments, which was against Sutherlands, and the only argument made was that he made a bad point about loran.
Also apologizes for his lack of contribution
Perhaps most interestingly, tries to defend limited use of the FOS.
Of course, this is after the UVP case has been explained quite well, but there was still only about 4 votes on at this stage.
Of course, there was some rather large hypocrisy in Zchinque's PBPA.
I particularly liked Zchinque saying UVP was trying to sit on the fence by not voting for Sutherlands when Zchinque did the same thing, attacked Sutherlands but didn't actually vote. That's probably the single biggest thing against Zchinque, damning UVP for doing something he (Zchinque) did himself.
There's also the bit where Zchinque repeats that he voted UVP for saying we should be careful about FOS but then used FOS, given that Zchinque did almost the opposite- encouraged the continued limited use of FOS, then attacked UVP for doing it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1628146#post1628146
bertrand says he doesn't think you succeeded in making UVP look scummy. Zchinque immediately argue with his points... including admitting that UVP did vote Sutherlands in the post after the one Zchinque mentioned in your PBPA as being on the fence. Which makes Z's PBPA scummy on that point from two angles.
1) Because Z had not-voted Sutherlands himself and;
2) Because he knew that UVP had voted Sutherlands after all in his next post, so what fence sitting was he saying UVP was doing?
He also uses the dread words "flip-flopping" to paint UVP with even though he knew UVP hadn't done that.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1636296#post1636296
Admits in response to cp that the u-turn re: going to the docks is suspicious. Does the "let UVP post once more" thing which always reads to me like "I don't want to look like I'm speedlynching him, but I really want people to hammer him as soon as I can get away with it".
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1641877#post1641877
Admits he has been caught being hypocritical by UVP (see above for details of where it occurred). Well, he can't really do anything else. Find it very interesting that he's tallying "mistakes" in his play.
It's not the strongest case ever, certainly. But I think Zchnque showed signs in his prods at Sutherlands, Nom Anor and especially the small amount of poor arguments he added to the case against UVP that he's not playing it entirely straight.
-Calls his "defence" sketchy- as I said slightly lower in the thread in response to Kenji, I didn't think Sutherlands really had something major to defend at that point, so there wasn't really a defence to BE sketchy unless you wanted to paint something that way.
His defence was sketchy, at least that's how it came across to me.
-The point of the "defence" that stood out to him was something Sutherlands said about loran... which actually isn't in defence of Sutherlands at all. It's one thing to think Sutherlands had a weak argument about loran, but that's not part of his "defence" at all.... it just seems like an effort to make it look like there's more momentum against Sutherlands than there really was.
I see your point here.
That was what stood out to me as the most scummy in his posts, but I should not have made it look like I was faulting his defence due to that quote.
I don't see how this could help me escape from anything. I was only pointing out that if Loran did not actually have a post restriction, some of what I said was null and void.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1622934#post1622934
Keeps trying to get info from Sutherlands about the trainee. My issue with this whole line of questioning is that if you think he's mafia, you don't need to know this stuff since it's BS and if you think he's town you don't need to know this stuff since it should be secret, so you don't actually need to know- unless you're mafia and you're trying to work out who needs to be killed first.
Let us here, for the sake of argument, assume that Sutherlands is mafia.
Wouldn't such questions force him to lie? Wouldn't that again make it easier for him to trip over his own net of lies?
Specifically, to arimnaes putting forth the Nom Anor wagon, because heavens forbid a mafia draw attention to themselves by starting a wagon themselves and having to put forward actual arguments.
I was looking forward to seeing a case against Nom Anor, not a wagon. That is, I was looking forward to see what arguments people had against him, as he had not come across as very scummy to me.
Perhaps most interestingly, tries to defend limited use of the FOS.
I still believe that careful use of FOS can be good for the town.
I was never on the Nom Anor wagon, so I would hardly call it "jumping over to the UVP wagon".
Note how I said that careful use of FOS might be valuable to the town, while saying that UVP excessively used the FOS.
To me, UVP's use of FOS did not seem to be careful.
Of course, this is after the UVP case has been explained quite well, but there was still only about 4 votes on at this stage.
What are you saying here? That there was no need to compile a case against UVP?
Of course, there was some rather large hypocrisy in Zchinque's PBPA.
I particularly liked Zchinque saying UVP was trying to sit on the fence by not voting for Sutherlands when Zchinque did the same thing, attacked Sutherlands but didn't actually vote. That's probably the single biggest thing against Zchinque, damning UVP for doing something he (Zchinque) did himself.
Touche.
However, I would like to say that this was not a huge point against UVP for me. As you might have noticed I said it gave me a "slight feeling..." and later I said I found it "a bit odd". It was also not one of the most scummy posts by UVP, as I said in that post. I would not say that I "damned" him for it.
That being said, I do see your point here.
There's also the bit where Zchinque repeats that he voted UVP for saying we should be careful about FOS but then used FOS, given that Zchinque did almost the opposite- encouraged the continued limited use of FOS, then attacked UVP for doing it.
I was interested in seeing a case presented against Nom Anor, to see what people had against him. I believe I have already said this.
That is all I have the time to respond to right now, I shall respond to the rest later tonight, when I get home.
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Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Picross 3D
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
As for the gimmick, I really want to sit down and compare posting styles a little closer, but my guess is MMoD. (This seems much like CSI-work, and that's 'fun' in my twisted little mind.)
Personally, i think that UVP is probably telling the truth about his ability, or at least the ability is similar to his. That being said, im still not convinced that he is townie. The fact that he is unnightkillable and his choice is to NOT kill, makes me think that he is SK, like others have mentioned. so ill vote UVP
As for the proposed argument on Zchnique's is definetly worth looking into/reading more. Looking forward to the remaining response.
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Thanks to Legacy15 and Butteblues18 for the Sig and Avatar!
First of all, Why would you take the wine in front of you?
It is NOT WIFOM so don't even try to use craplogic. WIFOM only applies when the probabilities are equal. The chances of a SK being RESTRICTED and limited against a mafia group is much much less than a SK being buffed agaisnt a mafia group because it would be idiotic for a mod to expect a SK to win against the mafia and town in the first place, even more so when being restricted.
That is a sweeping assumption to make, and one which I am positive that you have absolutely NO evidence to support. You are gaming the mod, man, and you are making me more inclined to believe that Wuffles hit the nail on the head.
The fact is that you think I'm a restricted SK pretty much counters any chance I have of being a SK, see above.
Refer to Chimp's post above. See Below. If you read higher, you'd know that there were no locations Night 0. As chimp said, this isn't really a point for or against you....
Thanks for admitting it's not a scumtell. (See above)
Why haven't we lynched you yet? Deflection is an incredibly scummy tactic, the least you could do is come up with a convincing case. To be honest, it reeks of desperation. Actually, this is a decent point. To be honest, I really kinda want you dead. In the unlikely event that you aren't lynched today, I'm happy for you to either go to the docks, or to go to Beyond to kill me at night. I'll even volunteer leave my vote on you. So yeah, I'm SO happy with where my vote is now.
I am NOT deflecting at all so this is just more BS accusations against me. I have defended EVERY point against me and I'm still trying to find mafia in addition to that so you accusing me of deflecting holds no water at all. Ok, I'll vig you tonight if that's what the town wants.
EBWOP: As for the locations bit, I'm starting to be a bit confused myself and I know that I'm not the only one. I assumed there was a locations choice last night and I did submit sneaking around, if there wasn't then it had no effect. Yet some people just jumped at me for sneaking around, when others have said that there was no locations choice last night, which is it then?
(This was supposed to be the first thing in my post)
Both. The point is that you said you did something, whereas no one else submitted anything because we knew that we couldn't be at a location last night.
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Level 1 Judge
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
UVP: normally, a restricted SK would be a very underpowered role, sure, but you've also claimed to be unnightkillable for the most part, which balances it out. I wouldn't be unhappy lynching the SK this early in the game.
Raf: While I don't agree with every point you came up with against Z, I'll grant that you made him look a lot worse than I thought he would; even worse than UVP, from the perspective of him being mafia. I want to know, though, how much of a possibility you think it is that UVP is an SK, though, because it would be a nice coup to get him Day 1 if possible. If there's a decent reason to think that he isn't the SK, I'll be happy enough to move over.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
The point about "sneaking around" holds no water because Salubrious came in and destroyed my question before it got answered when I made it very apparent I wanted no one to comment on it in any way.
The point, UVP, would have been that if you claimed to have received any mod-information about sneaking around last night it would have been a blatant lie, as before the first post was editted by Bat it stated that Night 0 was a special evening and no locations would be submitted. I can see how you would have missed it and submitted a location, it was only one sentence in the big opening post. Submitting a location doesn't mean jack squat other than perhaps you skim-read. Stating information received about your location would have been false.
It's all pretty irrelevent now.
EWP:
Quote from UVP »
It is NOT WIFOM so don't even try to use craplogic. WIFOM only applies when the probabilities are equal.
Actually, it's not even WIFOM because it was about something that has absolutely nothing to do with a behavioral decision-making process. Whether or not your role is a restricted SK has no semblance of applying a behavior to it. WoD is simply trying to attach a "mafia"-ism to an argument to make it sound plausible, so yes, your accusation of craplogic is correct. I'd point a finger at him here, but we know how that riles everyone up.
Now, your counter-argument is equally as crappy. Claiming that an SK wouldn't be restricted is rather silly considering you have limited night-invulnerability... bah, sarnathed by CP. Read his statement.
I'm willing to vote for UVP at any time we're ready.
The day is over. UVP is the lynch: We lose nothing if he is lynchedand is a townie (like he said, his role is mostly useless now), there's a good possiblity of SK, and there's really not much more to be gleaned from discussion. How many votes from lynch away are we?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Are you kidding me? I am not unnightkillable as the mafia can still kill me.
Also, accusations that my role is "next to useless" are blatantly incorrect. Z just said he WOULD be willing to vote me so I could kill him at night and some of you are looking at him right now. The town CAN pressure someone into voting me so I can kill them.
IF I was a SK, my kills would be directed anyway, so even if you were to assume I was an SK, you could easily use me to function as a vigilante and lynch me later.
The point, UVP, would have been that if you claimed to have received any mod-information about sneaking around last night it would have been a blatant lie, as before the first post was editted by Bat it stated that Night 0 was a special evening and no locations would be submitted. I can see how you would have missed it and submitted a location, it was only one sentence in the big opening post. Submitting a location doesn't mean jack squat other than perhaps you skim-read. Stating information received about your location would have been false.
I didn't claim to receive any information from the mod though, did I?
Personally, i think that UVP is probably telling the truth about his ability, or at least the ability is similar to his. That being said, im still not convinced that he is townie. The fact that he is unnightkillable and his choice is to NOT kill, makes me think that he is SK, like others have mentioned. so ill vote UVP
This makes no sense at all. Why would a SK need an option to not kill twice in the game?
Really, you guys are being way too contradictory with your arguments.
If I was a SK..
1) You could direct me meaning I would be a vigilante
2) Why would I want to not kill twice in the game when I can?
3) You guys could easily just all unvote me before the end of the day meaning I could not kill.
Also, I can any other person with a killing role as town. You could easily just do this tonight or any other night:
Get a town killing role to try and kill me. If I'm lying, I die, if I'm telling the truth, that part of my role is confirmed (and if I'm Beyond the City Walls, I can even confirm the specific person) Why would I need to know about other town killing roles if I'm the SK and night kill immune? It would NOT benefit me at all considering they can't kill me anyway.
Please think more about the possibilty of me being a SK.
Really, you guys are being way too contradictory with your arguments.
If I was a SK..
1) You could direct me meaning I would be a vigilante
This argument leads me to believe you are, in fact, the SK. It's a typical reaction from someone outed in this position.
Quote from UVP »
2) Why would I want to not kill twice in the game when I can?
What if there's a vote-forcer in this game? You certainly wouldn't want to kill yourself. What if there's a retalitory killing role? What if this piece is fabricated? Just because Pibbly has expressed his belief in your entire claim does not mean it is shared by all.
Quote from UVP »
3) You guys could easily just all unvote me before the end of the day meaning I could not kill.
See above. Also, loran has already expressed his issue.
Quote from UVP »
Also, I can any other person with a killing role as town. You could easily just do this tonight or any other night:
Get a town killing role to try and kill me. If I'm lying, I die, if I'm telling the truth, that part of my role is confirmed (and if I'm Beyond the City Walls, I can even confirm the specific person) Why would I need to know about other town killing roles if I'm the SK and night kill immune? It would NOT benefit me at all considering they can't kill me anyway.
You want the vig to come out to validate you? I thought you were the vig?
Quote from UVP »
Please think more about the possibilty of me being a SK.
I have. It's certainly possible. Your wording in the last post does not speak to coming from the town vig, it speaks of coming from a caught-out serial killer.
This argument leads me to believe you are, in fact, the SK. It's a typical reaction from someone outed in this position.
...
I have. It's certainly possible. Your wording in the last post does not speak to coming from the town vig, it speaks of coming from a caught-out serial killer.
That's ONE of the reasons, you still have not commented on the validity of that argument, and I'm putting it as if I were a SK, so obviously, the wording may sound like I am one.
What if there's a vote-forcer in this game? You certainly wouldn't want to kill yourself. What if there's a retalitory killing role? What if this piece is fabricated? Just because Pibbly has expressed his belief in your entire claim does not mean it is shared by all. See above. Also, loran has already expressed his issue.
If bateuler made a setup where a SK was against a Mafia and forced to kill himself, I'd never trust him as a moderator. And even if this piece is fabricated, you still have not refuted my other arguments.
You want the vig to come out to validate you? I thought you were the vig?
First of all, that's not what I said at all. Please read the post again as well as my claim again. Second of all, I don't know if I can be called a "vigilante" considering the modifications to the role, and obviously, there's more than one town killing role as my PM implied none of which I think will be standard "vigilantes."
Also, accusations that my role is "next to useless" are blatantly incorrect. Z just said he WOULD be willing to vote me so I could kill him at night and some of you are looking at him right now. The town CAN pressure someone into voting me so I can kill them.
Well, I gotta tell you, even if the town wanted me to vote for you so that you could get me, I wouldn't. Goes double if I were mafia.
IF I was a SK, my kills would be directed anyway, so even if you were to assume I was an SK, you could easily use me to function as a vigilante and lynch me later.
See above point. Also, as pointed out, a common SK idea.
3CB and 4CB5CB!"Hear ye, hear ye, controversy erupts in the Royal Court !"
It's clear from his vagueness that he hasn't actually heard any details. In an attempt to cover this up he summarises the voting:
Unvote Vote Pod: Sutherlands, Wuffles_II, carrion pigeons, Wrath_of_DoG, Salubrious, Zchinque, Kenji, LookingForReality, Nom_Anor
Nom_Anor: Unvote Vote Pod
Salubrious: Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Kenji: Chimpanzee
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
May I remind all players that it is NEVER acceptable to edit or delete posts.
You will note, however, that my game rules make no reference to a compulsory modkill for any particular misdemeanour. In this particular case having reviewed the timestamps on the edit and all relevant posts I am inclined to be lenient and allow Unvote Vote Pod to continue play. He was under a lot of time pressure at that point and it seems fairly clear to me that the edit was a careless oversight which did not impact the game significantly.
Any player who feels the gameplay has been disrupted may appeal this decision by PM to me.
This is not a "second chance" and nor does it set precedent. Each rules infraction will be judged independently with the best interests of the game as the primary criterion.
OK, you may resume play now.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Regardless, I be wantin' an explanation fer this:
Second, I pretty much agree with arimnaes' impression of UVP's role.
Third, now that I think about it, it makes equally little sense for mafia to say they went sneaking night 1 as it does town so it doesn't really indicate either way. Both sides were informed that there was no locations night 0 in the same way so while the sneaking around bit is impossible, mafia would know that too, so while it makes no sense it's not really scummy and I thus retract my support for a UVP lynch. Nevertheless, I would still like to hear an explanation on it.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Third of all, how in the heck would I benefit from sneaking around?
Fourth of all, I have already said I will be at the Docks tonight or I can be Beyond the City Walls if anybody wants to confirm my role.
Fifth of all, I had no idea what any idea of locations did last night. For all I knew, mafia could've only killed people in the Royal Library or whatever. I had no idea whether choosing a location, or choosing which location, would help town, or mafia, so I decided to sneak around, which would impact neither.
Sixth of all, I'm surprised more people are not looking at Zchinque:
You're right. It isn't good neough for me. It makes no sense for you to unvote me, especially when the words you chose that I had explained myself well enough implied that you suspicion of me had died down. How does your vote being on me hinder people from presenting their case against Nom_Anor? Your logic here makes no sense as there was no need for you to unvote and you unvoting did nothing to help the Nom_Anor wagon.
Pretty sure we can pressure people into voting me at the end of the day if we want them dead.
Um. So does this mean that he is scum, or just exceptionally foolish? Even after like 3 people comment on how nobody had locations yesterday, he still claims that he chose to sneak around.
So yeah, I'm SO happy with where my vote is now. First of all, Why would you take the wine in front of you? That is a sweeping assumption to make, and one which I am positive that you have absolutely NO evidence to support. You are gaming the mod, man, and you are making me more inclined to believe that Wuffles hit the nail on the head. Refer to Chimp's post above. See Below. If you read higher, you'd know that there were no locations Night 0. As chimp said, this isn't really a point for or against you. ... Why haven't we lynched you yet? Deflection is an incredibly scummy tactic, the least you could do is come up with a convincing case. To be honest, it reeks of desperation. Actually, this is a decent point. To be honest, I really kinda want you dead. In the unlikely event that you aren't lynched today, I'm happy for you to either go to the docks, or to go to Beyond to kill me at night. I'll even volunteer leave my vote on you.
+
=
?
In the interests of being a bit more constructive, while the only person with votes besides UVP is Salubrious, it may be worth taking a look at Zchinque. UVP did get an interesting admission out of him. I might see about a PBPA late tonight.
I am still interested in who U.V.P. ACTUALLY is, though, considering an exception to the gimmicks rule has been made for him.
You are quite correct. I have already said that, in hindsight, I should not have unvoted you.
Again, I would like to refer to something CP posted, that was a factor when it came to my unvoting.
By this I do not mean that CP is in any way responsible, or to blame, for my actions.
Notice what CP says about multiple bandwagons. At the time the town seemed to be more interested in a NA wagon. Because of this, I, wrongly, figured that getting off the bandwagon on you, there would be more "room" for the NA wagon, so to speak.
Yes, I made a mistake. Now I am trying to own up to that, and explain myself as well as I can.
@fade and everyone else: I suggest not hammering until RafK has presented his PBPA of me.
@Rafk: I am looking forward to the PBPA, and I shall answer any questions and points against me to the best of my abilities.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Raf: I must've double counted someone because I thought there were already 10. But whatever. I'll wait at least until after you've presented your PBPA.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Actually, Chimp, he mentioned finals before, which doesnt fit the very French Puzzle. He's not Puzzle.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Meh, I didn't bother to check anyway.
And no, I believe my previous reasoning relating UVP to Puzzle is incorrect, as per the finals comment.
Also, Puzzle probably would have been able to come up with a better false claim than the one UVP did.
rawr.
My extremely unlikely guess would be Alfred.
Coiled Flame maybe?
By kingcobweb and Goblinboy.
Official Elitist of [thread=40859][RBS][/thread]
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
"Hear ye, hear ye, chicken escapes in the poultry market, mad chase ensues."
It is obviously a slow news day. Not much excitement is added as he summarises the voting in the Royal Court:
Unvote Vote Pod: Sutherlands, Wuffles_II, carrion pigeons, Wrath_of_DoG, Salubrious, Zchinque, LookingForReality, Nom_Anor
Nom_Anor: Unvote Vote Pod
Salubrious: Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I'm going to stay on the UVP wagon for now because I don't think there's been a good reason to get off. The points made against him still stand; the only new point for him is that he might just be thick, but I just don't see where that gives him an excuse to get off, even for a day. We know that he's fairly experienced, and we know that it's easy to pretend like you don't understand an argument. As a result, this point is too WIFOM to let slide, and there isn't much else that speaks for him. I'm happy to wait a bit if the town wants to look at Z, in order to determine which case is stronger, but I said before that we can't pursue multiple bandwagons at once. I'll be quite annoyed if this turns into God Mafia Day 1, where the person who's closest to being lynched repeatedly gets off because everyone has to air their suspicions about others before the day ends, starting a brand new wagon in the process, regardless of which case is better.
One nice thing, though, is that the constant swinging of momentum this day has brought had really exposed some chronic bandwagonners. They're sneaking up on my list.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
I know, what? And also a couple of people who have been the opposite, managing to refuse to bandwagon anyone seriously despite all the opportunities.
PBPA on Zchinque coming up.
I really can't think of a reason why this person has to hide behind a damn gimmick.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1617752#post1617752
Random-voting hello post (votes Nom Anor)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1618851#post1618851
Commentary about FOSes.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1619224#post1619224
Discussion about who gets told what about where people are at night. Claims that he doesn't see how we can spot mafia through "directing traffic", ie. cp's plan of announcing where people will be in advance.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1620493#post1620493
Skips straight away from the previous without further response- which I found interesting, since before Nom Anor I don't know that we really had a focussed plan for how we were going to organise stuff, but Zchinque never said whether or not he was satisfied by cp's reply or not or whether he agreed or disagreed. Like he didn't actually care about the answer.
Anyway, the actual post is asking Loran to explain his FOSes, which was fair enough.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1620517#post1620517
Apologises for his minor mistake in describing what loran was doing.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1621168#post1621168
-Joins in on the established bandwagon on Sutherlands.
-Calls his "defence" sketchy- as I said slightly lower in the thread in response to Kenji, I didn't think Sutherlands really had something major to defend at that point, so there wasn't really a defence to BE sketchy unless you wanted to paint something that way.
-The point of the "defence" that stood out to him was something Sutherlands said about loran... which actually isn't in defence of Sutherlands at all. It's one thing to think Sutherlands had a weak argument about loran, but that's not part of his "defence" at all.... it just seems like an effort to make it look like there's more momentum against Sutherlands than there really was.
-Blatant useless speculation about loran.
-Doesn't actually vote Sutherlands (albeit because he wants more discussion)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1621172#post1621172
Just a minor addition to the post above (saying it's all based on loran really having a post restriction- seems more like trying to leave himself an escape hole).
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1622647#post1622647
Returns to the fray after fadeblue does his backflip on Sutherlands. Tries to keep the Sutherlands wagon going (although not the only person who did that). Tries to fish a bit, asking Sutherlands why the mafia would want to kill the trainee instead of killing Sutherlands.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1622934#post1622934
Keeps trying to get info from Sutherlands about the trainee. My issue with this whole line of questioning is that if you think he's mafia, you don't need to know this stuff since it's BS and if you think he's town you don't need to know this stuff since it should be secret, so you don't actually need to know- unless you're mafia and you're trying to work out who needs to be killed first.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1623594#post1623594
STILL trying to get info from Sutherlands about that trainee.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1625695#post1625695
The Sutherlands wagon is gone, so Zchinque looks forward to the Nom Anor wagon.
Specifically, to arimnaes putting forth the Nom Anor wagon, because heavens forbid a mafia draw attention to themselves by starting a wagon themselves and having to put forward actual arguments.
At this point, Zchinque has only made one post with arguments, which was against Sutherlands, and the only argument made was that he made a bad point about loran.
Also apologizes for his lack of contribution
Perhaps most interestingly, tries to defend limited use of the FOS.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1626236#post1626236
So much for the Nom Anor wagon. Jumps over to the UVP wagon, specifically on the grounds of excessive use of FOS. What was that in the last post about FOS being valuable to the town?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1626317#post1626317
Comment on how many votes to lynch.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1626887#post1626887
Money where his mouth is- finally fronts up with a real analysis post, on UVP.
Of course, this is after the UVP case has been explained quite well, but there was still only about 4 votes on at this stage.
Of course, there was some rather large hypocrisy in Zchinque's PBPA.
I particularly liked Zchinque saying UVP was trying to sit on the fence by not voting for Sutherlands when Zchinque did the same thing, attacked Sutherlands but didn't actually vote. That's probably the single biggest thing against Zchinque, damning UVP for doing something he (Zchinque) did himself.
There's also the bit where Zchinque repeats that he voted UVP for saying we should be careful about FOS but then used FOS, given that Zchinque did almost the opposite- encouraged the continued limited use of FOS, then attacked UVP for doing it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1626906#post1626906
EBWODP to the above, nothing new.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1627176#post1627176
LFR defended UVP re: the "being on the fence" thing. Zchinque still tries to present it as scummy behaviour.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1627477#post1627477
cp says he's more interested in Nom Anor than UVP. That's fine, Zchinque will be too! Double the fun!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1628146#post1628146
bertrand says he doesn't think you succeeded in making UVP look scummy. Zchinque immediately argue with his points... including admitting that UVP did vote Sutherlands in the post after the one Zchinque mentioned in your PBPA as being on the fence. Which makes Z's PBPA scummy on that point from two angles.
1) Because Z had not-voted Sutherlands himself and;
2) Because he knew that UVP had voted Sutherlands after all in his next post, so what fence sitting was he saying UVP was doing?
He also uses the dread words "flip-flopping" to paint UVP with even though he knew UVP hadn't done that.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1628202#post1628202
Agrees with me concerning UVP's silly statements about me, which is perfectly fair
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1628581#post1628581
Jumps off UVP after UVP's first answer post. Which I don't get, because this is where UVP comes up with such brilliant defence as
I don't get why this would make Z unvote UVP, unless he happened to just not want to be on the bandwagon...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1631025#post1631025
1) Fishes at Kenji
2) Doesn't commit on Nom Anor
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1632991#post1632991
Gets back on the UVP wagon. UVP himself has already pointed out Zchinque's inconsistencies regarding this post, so I don't need to bother doing it again.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1633130#post1633130
Irrelevant post re: Puzzle.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1633538#post1633538
Not going to the docks (might be a joke). Talks of the UVP lynch like it's a foregone conclusion that we've already decided.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1633563#post1633563
Going to the docks.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1636021#post1636021
Wait, not going to the docks.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1636296#post1636296
Admits in response to cp that the u-turn re: going to the docks is suspicious. Does the "let UVP post once more" thing which always reads to me like "I don't want to look like I'm speedlynching him, but I really want people to hammer him as soon as I can get away with it".
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1637421#post1637421
Still a little impatient re: UVP, but understandably so (and not the only one).
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1641055#post1641055
Seems to be a bit wishy-washy about UVP's claim (but not wishy-washy enough to unvote him or anything that might hurt the bandwagon).
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1641877#post1641877
Admits he has been caught being hypocritical by UVP (see above for details of where it occurred). Well, he can't really do anything else. Find it very interesting that he's tallying "mistakes" in his play.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=1643843#post1643843
Goes to something cp says to explain his "mistake", but is very aware of making sure he's saying he's not trying to pin it on cp. Because that would be scummy.
And that's all.
It's not the strongest case ever, certainly. But I think Zchnque showed signs in his prods at Sutherlands, Nom Anor and especially the small amount of poor arguments he added to the case against UVP that he's not playing it entirely straight.
unvote, vote Zchinque
His defence was sketchy, at least that's how it came across to me.
I see your point here.
That was what stood out to me as the most scummy in his posts, but I should not have made it look like I was faulting his defence due to that quote.
I don't see how this could help me escape from anything. I was only pointing out that if Loran did not actually have a post restriction, some of what I said was null and void.
Let us here, for the sake of argument, assume that Sutherlands is mafia.
Wouldn't such questions force him to lie? Wouldn't that again make it easier for him to trip over his own net of lies?
I was looking forward to seeing a case against Nom Anor, not a wagon. That is, I was looking forward to see what arguments people had against him, as he had not come across as very scummy to me.
I still believe that careful use of FOS can be good for the town.
I was never on the Nom Anor wagon, so I would hardly call it "jumping over to the UVP wagon".
Note how I said that careful use of FOS might be valuable to the town, while saying that UVP excessively used the FOS.
To me, UVP's use of FOS did not seem to be careful.
What are you saying here? That there was no need to compile a case against UVP?
Touche.
However, I would like to say that this was not a huge point against UVP for me. As you might have noticed I said it gave me a "slight feeling..." and later I said I found it "a bit odd". It was also not one of the most scummy posts by UVP, as I said in that post. I would not say that I "damned" him for it.
That being said, I do see your point here.
I believe I have answered this above.
No, I said I found it a bit odd. I even say in that very post: "Not necessarily a scummy action (or inaction), but an odd one, in my opinion."
I was interested in seeing a case presented against Nom Anor, to see what people had against him. I believe I have already said this.
That is all I have the time to respond to right now, I shall respond to the rest later tonight, when I get home.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Awaiting Zchinque's remaining response.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
As for the proposed argument on Zchnique's is definetly worth looking into/reading more. Looking forward to the remaining response.
Here is the voting analysis:
arimnaes: Nom_Anor
Chimpanzee: arimnaes
Unvote Vote Pod: Wuffles_II
Kenji: LookingForReality
Nom_Anor: Zchinque, Sutherlands
loran16: Pibbly, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Pibbly: Salubrious
Axelrod: Disrupt_Your_Hymn
__________________
arimnaes: Nom_Anor
Chimpanzee: arimnaes
Unvote Vote Pod: Wuffles_II
Kenji: LookingForReality
Nom_Anor: Zchinque, Sutherlands
loran16: Pibbly, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Pibbly: Salubrious
Axelrod: Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Chimpanzee: arimnaes
Unvote Vote Pod: Wuffles_II, RafaelK
Nom_Anor: Zchinque
loran16: Pibbly
Pibbly: Salubrious
Disrupt_Your_Hymn: Nom_Anor
LookingForReality: Sutherlands
Wuffles_II: Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Chimpanzee
Salubrious: carrion pigeons
Unvote Vote Pod: RafaelK
loran16: Pibbly, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Pibbly: Salubrious
LookingForReality: Sutherlands
Wuffles_II: Chimpanzee, Unvote Vote Pod
Salubrious: carrion pigeons
Sutherlands: Kenji, arimnaes, LookingForReality
Unvote Vote Pod: RafaelK
loran16: Pibbly, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Pibbly: Salubrious
Wuffles_II: Chimpanzee
Sutherlands: Kenji, arimnaes, LookingForReality, Nom_Anor, Unvote Vote Pod, fadeblue, carrion pigeons
fadeblue: Sutherlands
loran16: Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Pibbly: Salubrious
Wrath_of_DoG: RafaelK
Wuffles_II: Chimpanzee
Sutherlands: Kenji, arimnaes, Nom_Anor, Unvote Vote Pod, carrion pigeons, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
fadeblue: Sutherlands
Wrath_of_DoG: RafaelK, LookingForReality, carrion pigeons
Wuffles_II: Chimpanzee
Nom_Anor: arimnaes
Sutherlands: Kenji, Nom_Anor, Unvote Vote Pod, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, bertrand, Wrath_of_DoG
Unvote Vote Pod: RafaelK, Sutherlands, Wuffles_II
Wrath_of_DoG: LookingForReality, carrion pigeons
Nom_Anor: arimnaes, Unvote Vote Pod
Unvote Vote Pod: RafaelK, Sutherlands, Wuffles_II
Nom_Anor: arimnaes, Unvote Vote Pod, carrion pigeons, Axelrod
LookingForReality: Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Unvote Vote Pod: RafaelK, Sutherlands, Wuffles_II, carrion pigeons, Wrath_of_DoG, Salubrious
Nom_Anor: arimnaes, Unvote Vote Pod
LookingForReality: Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Kenji: Chimpanzee
Unvote Vote Pod: RafaelK, Sutherlands, Wuffles_II, carrion pigeons, Wrath_of_DoG, Salubrious, Zchinque, Kenji, LookingForReality
Nom_Anor: Unvote Vote Pod
LookingForReality: Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Kenji: Chimpanzee
Unvote Vote Pod: Sutherlands, Wuffles_II, carrion pigeons, Wrath_of_DoG, Salubrious, Zchinque, Kenji, LookingForReality, Nom_Anor
Nom_Anor: Unvote Vote Pod
Salubrious: Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
Kenji: Chimpanzee
Unvote Vote Pod: Sutherlands, Wuffles_II, carrion pigeons, Wrath_of_DoG, Salubrious, Zchinque, LookingForReality, Nom_Anor
Nom_Anor: Unvote Vote Pod
Salubrious: Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, Disrupt_Your_Hymn
I'll be back later with some notes on this.
It is NOT WIFOM so don't even try to use craplogic. WIFOM only applies when the probabilities are equal. The chances of a SK being RESTRICTED and limited against a mafia group is much much less than a SK being buffed agaisnt a mafia group because it would be idiotic for a mod to expect a SK to win against the mafia and town in the first place, even more so when being restricted.
The fact is that you think I'm a restricted SK pretty much counters any chance I have of being a SK, see above.
Thanks for admitting it's not a scumtell. (See above)
I am NOT deflecting at all so this is just more BS accusations against me. I have defended EVERY point against me and I'm still trying to find mafia in addition to that so you accusing me of deflecting holds no water at all. Ok, I'll vig you tonight if that's what the town wants.
(This was supposed to be the first thing in my post)
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Raf: While I don't agree with every point you came up with against Z, I'll grant that you made him look a lot worse than I thought he would; even worse than UVP, from the perspective of him being mafia. I want to know, though, how much of a possibility you think it is that UVP is an SK, though, because it would be a nice coup to get him Day 1 if possible. If there's a decent reason to think that he isn't the SK, I'll be happy enough to move over.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
The point, UVP, would have been that if you claimed to have received any mod-information about sneaking around last night it would have been a blatant lie, as before the first post was editted by Bat it stated that Night 0 was a special evening and no locations would be submitted. I can see how you would have missed it and submitted a location, it was only one sentence in the big opening post. Submitting a location doesn't mean jack squat other than perhaps you skim-read. Stating information received about your location would have been false.
It's all pretty irrelevent now.
EWP:
Actually, it's not even WIFOM because it was about something that has absolutely nothing to do with a behavioral decision-making process. Whether or not your role is a restricted SK has no semblance of applying a behavior to it. WoD is simply trying to attach a "mafia"-ism to an argument to make it sound plausible, so yes, your accusation of craplogic is correct. I'd point a finger at him here, but we know how that riles everyone up.
Now, your counter-argument is equally as crappy. Claiming that an SK wouldn't be restricted is rather silly considering you have limited night-invulnerability... bah, sarnathed by CP. Read his statement.
I'm willing to vote for UVP at any time we're ready.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Also, accusations that my role is "next to useless" are blatantly incorrect. Z just said he WOULD be willing to vote me so I could kill him at night and some of you are looking at him right now. The town CAN pressure someone into voting me so I can kill them.
IF I was a SK, my kills would be directed anyway, so even if you were to assume I was an SK, you could easily use me to function as a vigilante and lynch me later.
I didn't claim to receive any information from the mod though, did I?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
This makes no sense at all. Why would a SK need an option to not kill twice in the game?
If I was a SK..
1) You could direct me meaning I would be a vigilante
2) Why would I want to not kill twice in the game when I can?
3) You guys could easily just all unvote me before the end of the day meaning I could not kill.
Also, I can any other person with a killing role as town. You could easily just do this tonight or any other night:
Get a town killing role to try and kill me. If I'm lying, I die, if I'm telling the truth, that part of my role is confirmed (and if I'm Beyond the City Walls, I can even confirm the specific person) Why would I need to know about other town killing roles if I'm the SK and night kill immune? It would NOT benefit me at all considering they can't kill me anyway.
Please think more about the possibilty of me being a SK.
This argument leads me to believe you are, in fact, the SK. It's a typical reaction from someone outed in this position.
What if there's a vote-forcer in this game? You certainly wouldn't want to kill yourself. What if there's a retalitory killing role? What if this piece is fabricated? Just because Pibbly has expressed his belief in your entire claim does not mean it is shared by all.
See above. Also, loran has already expressed his issue.
You want the vig to come out to validate you? I thought you were the vig?
I have. It's certainly possible. Your wording in the last post does not speak to coming from the town vig, it speaks of coming from a caught-out serial killer.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
That's ONE of the reasons, you still have not commented on the validity of that argument, and I'm putting it as if I were a SK, so obviously, the wording may sound like I am one.
If bateuler made a setup where a SK was against a Mafia and forced to kill himself, I'd never trust him as a moderator. And even if this piece is fabricated, you still have not refuted my other arguments.
First of all, that's not what I said at all. Please read the post again as well as my claim again. Second of all, I don't know if I can be called a "vigilante" considering the modifications to the role, and obviously, there's more than one town killing role as my PM implied none of which I think will be standard "vigilantes."
A town killing role is generally referred to as a vigilante, no?
You're trying to turn this argument in on itself with semantics.
What other arguments would you like me to refute? I responded to your prior post on a point-by-point basis, so I'm not sure what you mean here.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Well, I gotta tell you, even if the town wanted me to vote for you so that you could get me, I wouldn't. Goes double if I were mafia.
See above point. Also, as pointed out, a common SK idea.
Plausible Deniability
Not an argument to let you live.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)