I'm not sure what's happened to this game- but the content has fallen off significantly. Perhaps we just need some fresh insight. I'll call again for those of you lurking to put some original thought into this thread, please.
Have I mentioned lately that my top suspects ATM are Axel and Rafk, followed by Arim and Chucklez? Just in case I havent'.
Oh. And I just remembered that since Bluesoul replaced out of the thread, that means no one was planning on doing a PBPA to cover Axel's early posts. *sigh*
Perhaps I'll do that sometime, perhaps I'll wait on Puzzle to get back up to speed.
In the meantime, if anyone stops by, make sure to leave something, if only to state your current thoughts on the wagons or lack thereof.
Well, I'm still perfectly happy with my vote where it is (on Jobie). I think I may go back and do a revised case on him since even after DYH's his 'wagon hasn't really picked up any speed.
@Az: can you please do an overview case on RafK because as I said in my above post, I have my suspicions on RafK but I need to reread to confirm them because I don't remember any details. As such, it would be helpful to have someone give a preliminary overview of his case.
Well, I'm back from vacation, but I have a lot of stuff to catch up on (about 12 pages it seems). Can't say when I'll finish reading it seeing as I really don't like reading that much stuff in one go, but I'll try to post some content as soon as I catch up.
Az and Raf have pointed out that a death-cult and a pure reversion cult don't make any sense, so we're either forced to accept that the cult doesn't make any sense, which is usually true, or we have to accept that the cult probably doesn't revert and doesn't die.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Calling Puzzle. I'm with Az in his list of suspects. Except for Arimnaes. Havn't really noticed anything from him. And Chucklez more scummy than Raf. Also Machin Shin has posted some suspect pieces, so he'd probably make my fourth. So only similar to Az's list.
Quick question: I'm looking at the first post and I can't figure out who replaced Lelani in this game. Anyone remember?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I believe I'm finally going to take a closer at Silicon now.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
256
Can't put in words why he thinks MD is town. Just a hunch, but not a strong hunch. Will see if he can come up with something more concrete later that day.
(nine days pass)
403
Apologizes for not posting in a week. Doesn't even make an excuse for himself which is almost refreshing. Unvotes his random vote, and says many look scummy. Tregit and kops being the top 2. No particular reasons given for these.
450
Says Tregit is looking better, but still not convinced he's town. Now says Arimnaes and bluesoul are also "fairly high up." Then barns CC on his reasons to vote CP. Vote CP.
Scummy.
460
Unvotes CP, but "still watching" him. Says he "still" thinks the best bet is Tregit (which he has never said to this point.) Vote Tregit.
Scummy.
494
fos kops for this post. I have already criticized and voted kops for this very thing, so here he's kind of barning me. No other reasons given. Still thinks Tregit is "the play."
(4 days pass)
566
Jumps on the Absolutionis wagon. This post is incredibly hypocritical--he has given NO opinion of his pwn about anyone the entire game--and the fact he recognizes it doesn't really make it less so.
652
Not impressed with Absolutionis' response (which several people have already said.) Wants Abso to answer Puzzle's questions. Still expressing no opinion that has not been expressed by someone else first. Usually multiple people, in fact.
709
This is interesting. Unvotes Abso. for the reason that he's "a might" too close to bein lynched. Says nothing to indicate he is any less suspicious of Abso. Then goes into some detail on why he doesn't like Tregit's "Pantheon Plan." Which I don't think people are particularly talking about at that point.
Says the Abso. wagon grew fast, but defends the speed by saying he thinks if could be full of townies who just wanted something to happen. Doesn't seem to think Abso is any less likely to be scum because of the speed.
737
Az remarks that the scum probably already have far more info about the Pantheons in the game than the town from which they could draw claims (unless they are all in the same Pantheon). Silicon says there's still no reason to throw out the names of more Pantheons. Kind of a minor issue.
764
Says he's not thrilled with Abso's analysis. Says the fact that part of his claim have been "confirmed" helps "a bit." (this would be Aurorasparrow saying he's also a God from the GlassWright Series). Doesn't unvote.
Asks Cyan if he has any reason for believing there will be vanilla mafia. Minor fishing?
(five days pass)
902
Been busy at work and needs to catch up. Promises content will follow. Says my "plan" (which was having people say if they are GlassWright God or not) might be a good idea, but not right now. Maybe in a few days.
929
Reminds DYH about his joke vote for loran after DYH posts his list of all voting in the game so far.
981
Wishy-washy on AH. Doesn't see anything to make him think he's scum. Doesn't see anything to make him think he's town either. Take a dig at Passdog (who he has not so much as mentioned before). Goes back to voting Abso.
992
Passdog calls him on his dig. He states that he does think Passdog is "most likely" scum. For no reasons. Just a "gut" feeling.
Agrees with me that 1000 post days are too long.
Scummy.
995
More arguing with Passdog who is trying to press him to give an opinion on something.
1048
Now he's pressed a bit by DYH. DYH wants to know when he became suspicious of Passdog (whom he had never mentioned before). Silicon says it started around Post #743. Does not give any further explanation.
DYH asks why Passdog had not hit his scummy list before, and Silicon counters by saying DYH doesn't know when Passdog hit his scummy list because he never posted his scummy list. k.
DYH points out Cyan's confirmation of Abso as vanilla as a reason why many people may have gotten off the wagon. Silicon says he still surprised people got off as quickly as they did.
(three days pass)
1215
Jumps on the MD wagon. Says with all his "horrible" posts throughout the "entire day" he just can't believe him.
He hasn't said anything about MD for the entire day since the time he said he thought MD was newb town.
(day ends)
1289
Expresses dismay at all the Night kills. Asks if anyone knows why there were so many?
As if anyone would be answering that question.
1292
Tells Mosschop that you can tell the deceased were all town by looking at the first post.
1341
Bluesoul has come out as Cop (not Tracker). Silicon says this is an "interesting" turn of events and asks Bluesoul who he targeted Night 0.
Doesn't say specifically what he thinks is "interesting." Still hasn't expressed an opinion about anyone living.
(4 days pass)
1457
Again calls developments "interesting." Agrees the Labelas should come out if Tregit's claim is true. Says he is "Not Greek" I don't immediately see the reason for that claim. I'm assuming someone was asking for it, or suggesting that it might be a good thing to do, but I don't remember who or why.
More agreeing with everyone else. And lack of opinion on anyone specifically.
1486
Wonders why people are claiming "Not Labelas." A town Labelas would come out on their own. This is probably correct reasoning. Also, as it turns out, completely irrelevant to anything since Tregit was making it all up.
1563 again says something is "interesting." This time it's Tregit's admission of Culthood. Wonders if one of the night-kills might have come from the Cult. Which is something he might legitimately wonder even if he were mafia.
1626
More argeeing with everyone. Agrees with me Tregit ought to claim his original ability. Agrees with (someone) that kops ought to full claim too.
Still hasn't expressed a direct opinion about anyone the whole game day.
(5 days pass)
1728
Now gives his opinion on the "analysts brawl" between Az and myself. His opinion is....he can see some valid points on both sides but doesn't completely agree with either. Awesome.
Asks a mostly irrelevant question about the way Cults work (would a recruited mafia still count as a mafia for determining when the mafia win).
Says Tregit could still be a targeting neutral role of some kind (if not a killing role). Goes off to "think" some more.
(6 days pass)
1821
Comes back defending my question to kops (which was how does he feel about Chuckles claim considering his own role and the assumption that there would be a standard Doc in the game)
(4 days pass)
1911
His head wants to explode. Now we have both Cultists. INTERESTING (you keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.)
Doesn't "think" he agrees with people wanting to lynch kops, but that might change with a re-read.
...
In conclusion:
Silicon is scum.
Unvote;
Vote: Silicon
I R tired. Any detailed analysis will have to wait. But he's scum.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ok, I'm moved and pretty sure we have this wireless network set upt right. Should be able to read and post tomorrow.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
566
Jumps on the Absolutionis wagon. This post is incredibly hypocritical--he has given NO opinion of his pwn about anyone the entire game--and the fact he recognizes it doesn't really make it less so.
I had given my own opinions on several players. Unfortunately for me, my opinions had already been voiced by others in the game. I can't explain a reason for it other than I don't get too many chances to respond to things first. A lot of times I'll go off to work (or to bed), come back and some event has occured and been responded to by most everyone else.
Quote from Axelrod »
709
This is interesting. Unvotes Abso. for the reason that he's "a might" too close to bein lynched. Says nothing to indicate he is any less suspicious of Abso. Then goes into some detail on why he doesn't like Tregit's "Pantheon Plan." Which I don't think people are particularly talking about at that point.
Says the Abso. wagon grew fast, but defends the speed by saying he thinks if could be full of townies who just wanted something to happen. Doesn't seem to think Abso is any less likely to be scum because of the speed.
I was not any less suspicious of Abso at that point, but before I unvoted he was two or three votes from being lynched (mosschop had counted 12 people voting him, but looking back I can only find 11). At that point I felt there was more to gain by talking a bit more, and leaving him at eleven or twelve votes was not comfortable to me.
Quote from Axelrod »
764
Says he's not thrilled with Abso's analysis. Says the fact that part of his claim have been "confirmed" helps "a bit." (this would be Aurorasparrow saying he's also a God from the GlassWright Series). Doesn't unvote.
Asks Cyan if he has any reason for believing there will be vanilla mafia. Minor fishing?
I didn't unvote here because I had no vote on anyone at the time. Just making sure your notes are correct here.
Quote from Axelrod »
981
Wishy-washy on AH. Doesn't see anything to make him think he's scum. Doesn't see anything to make him think he's town either. Take a dig at Passdog (who he has not so much as mentioned before). Goes back to voting Abso.
992
Passdog calls him on his dig. He states that he does think Passdog is "most likely" scum. For no reasons. Just a "gut" feeling.
Agrees with me that 1000 post days are too long.
Scummy.
995
More arguing with Passdog who is trying to press him to give an opinion on something.
1048
Now he's pressed a bit by DYH. DYH wants to know when he became suspicious of Passdog (whom he had never mentioned before). Silicon says it started around Post #743. Does not give any further explanation.
DYH asks why Passdog had not hit his scummy list before, and Silicon counters by saying DYH doesn't know when Passdog hit his scummy list because he never posted his scummy list. k.
DYH points out Cyan's confirmation of Abso as vanilla as a reason why many people may have gotten off the wagon. Silicon says he still surprised people got off as quickly as they did.
Alright, why are people still acting surprised that I "never mentioned" Passdog as looking scummy before? The post I mentioned that I thought he was scummy in was the first post I made after he started giving me large scum vibes. Yes I had posted after what I told dyh first gave me some scummy vibes, but the whole case against AH which came in post 772 is what started giving me really strong vibes (looking back I never mentioned this, though I could have sworn I had). I never like it when people replace in a game and immediately attack someone, just seems extremely scummy to me.
Quote from Axelrod »
1215
Jumps on the MD wagon. Says with all his "horrible" posts throughout the "entire day" he just can't believe him.
He hasn't said anything about MD for the entire day since the time he said he thought MD was newb town.
So you attack me for not forming any opinions of my own, and for not stating the one of same opinions as everyone else? Seriously, everyone else noticed that his posts were horrible, and had said so. I saw no reason to restate the obvious.
Quote from Axelrod »
1289
Expresses dismay at all the Night kills. Asks if anyone knows why there were so many?
As if anyone would be answering that question.
I asked if anyone had any ideas as to why there were so many, not if they knew why. I was puzzled at the fourth kill really - figuring mafia, sk, and vig killings. Which multiple people expressed ideas as to why there was a fourth kill.
Quote from Axelrod »
1911
His head wants to explode. Now we have both Cultists. INTERESTING (you keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.)
Doesn't "think" he agrees with people wanting to lynch kops, but that might change with a re-read.
I don't understand why you think I don't know what interesting means. It's true, I tend to use it a lot (as evidenced by your pbpa), but I say that when stuff perks my interest. I don't always specifically state what was interesting obviously, but that doesn't mean there was nothing interesting.
LOL. Axel is a little off with the word being used in the Princess Bride quote he's borowed, but the effect is the same.
Fezzini: Inconceivable! Inigo: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
That's where he's coming from, Silicon.
I can see some of Axel's points: beyond the agregious lurking, there have been few places where Silicon has actually put his thoughts out there. To AH's point- after what happened in Star Trek mafia, I think this would likely be an "easy" lynch to swing (pun intended), and I wonder if it isn't Axelrod taking advantage of that in the somewhat precarious position of being under Azrael's eye. Regardless, the content should pick up if he is a townie, we could certainly use some additional insight.
But kops said he wasn't a straight doc, huh mommy? Could kops clarify on this? I think it might help.
So you want me to say "I am a straight doc" or "I am not a straight doc". Is that correct? If this is the case, I am willing to do this if a couple more people agree that I should (also, before I do, you yourself need to clarify that this is indeed what you want me to do).
Kops, Axel, RafK and myself have also expressed confusion about what you've claimed. I would like to hear if you're a standard doc or otherwise. Especially in light of the fact that you: "really don't think there was any point in prolonging my claim."
Specifically because his most suspicious action, as most people see it, makes a great deal more sense as cult than mafia.
No, no it doesn't. You're making a statement here without backing it up. kops' signal isn't related to "Lene, God of Humility", which the cultists say is their cult leader. kops' signal showed he probably didn't really know what he was signalling to.
kops has claimed to be the town doctor, and yet he was signalling something where he didn't know what it was. I mean, either he's misleading a townie who's signalling for a good reason or he's drawn the attention of a scum signalling for an evil reason. If he thinks the town should know about this signal, he could speak up, but he just wanted himself to know about the signal. Coupled with the manner of his claim (claiming a fake subtitle, then back-pedalling on the subtitle when caught out and claiming doc) this is just not townie behaviour. And we have two claimed cultists and made it clear we won't lynch non-leader cultists, so he's not an ordinary cultist or he would have tried that by now. He's cult leader or other scum. QED.
Quote from Azrael »
But yeah, if it's not a straight reversion cult, we're facing three NKs a night, and the game was completely unbalanced from the start. There very well might be a twist we don't know about it (protective role for the CL, for instance), but if it's the recruits guzzling poisoned kool-aid, then DM was completely off his rockers.
I see what you did there.
But trying to twist this into "it must be straight reversion OR a death cult" is just more of your garbage.
There's a lot of stuff out there, including stuff I speculated on earlier (ie. cultists stay cult, but without a recruiting. Or even reversion but the recruits stay without their old powers. Or whatever else our mod could dream up.)
Creating a false dichotomy to try and force your view through. I am very disappointed in you.
Quote from Azrael »
I'm looking forward to hearing this phantom case for Kops as mafia, however. It's been referred to time and again, but has never materialized.
Total BS, and you know it. It's outlined above anyway, in case you have trouble finding it again, but it's not the first time I (and others) have said this stuff.
Quote from Azrael »
I do???
In this very post, I was "second-guessing" the mod on the likelihood of a death cult, and you were second-guessing me right back.
Yes, you do. Trying to out-guess the mod is rarely smart, and you know this, and you say this to other people. I know you were second-guessing the mod (that's why I called you out on it, duh). I am not second-guessing the mod. I am pointing out that for you to assume that it's a straight reversion cult (as all your numbers games did) is not smart because you don't know if that's the sort of cult it is.
It's *amazing* (ie. not amazing) how you didn't seek to follow up on your arguments that forcing a suspected cult leader to claim didn't help the town.
There's entirely too many people in this game not voting. Take a stand, people.
LOL. Axel is a little off with the word being used in the Princess Bride quote he's borowed, but the effect is the same.
Fezzini: Inconceivable! Inigo: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
That's where he's coming from, Silicon.
Ah thanks for clearing that up, it's been quite a while since I've seen that movie.
Hmm...
Well my suspicions currently are (in no particular order)
Jobie - his play at the end of day 1 was questionable, his play today was a bit better, however still questionable.
Az & Axel - their argument today has been large and distracting, overall I feel Az has looked more scummy for the argument.
AH has also given me some weird vibes lately... I should really get around to reread Passdog's case on him...
I should hopefully give more input tomorrow morning.
1. Lurker. We know this. To some extant it's a Silicon thing to lurk, but this is pretty bad. Especially the large gaps in recent days. The last three posts coming over a period of more than two weeks. There are large gaps in posting during Day 1 as well. Lurking w/o excuse = scummy. Multiple gaps in posting of 4, 5, and more days = no excuse.
2. Non-committal. Day 1 he says he feels MD is newb town (which he's going to have a better read on if he's mafia, right?) but can't explain why he feels that way. Of course this feeling doesn't stop him from waggoning MD to death at the end of the day, while criticizing his "horrible" posting, which he has not himself mentioned once.
He also walked the middle road re: Absolutionis. Voted him for the reason "he can get behind this." Get behind what, pray tell? Then hides behind Puzzle's questions. Then "unvotes" like a good cautious townie, except he makes sure to tell everyone he doesn't think Abso. is any less likely to be scum. Is then wishy-washy when portions of Abso's claim are supported.
Wishy-washy on Abandon Hope also. One wonders about the point of making a comment like (paraphrase) "I haven't seen anything to make me think he's scum, then again, I haven't seen anything to make me think he's town either."
The Passdog incident appears to be more of the same. He dropped his first little dig at Passdog without explanation. When pressed, he does say he thinks Passdog is "most likely" scum, but can give NO basis for this feeling beyond his "gut."
When asked to clarify when his "gut" started speaking to him about Passdog, he points to post #743, where Passdog did not vote AH, did not FOS AH, but said AH was giving him "weird" vibes (and took the time to say specifically what was giving him weird vibes, which Silicon constantly fails to do). Silicon, it seems, wants to criticize that "attack" (if you can call it an attack), but even in his criticism, he says "the post he [Passdog] quotes does have one instance of a questionable usage of 'we'" In other words, Passdog is making at least a partially legitimate point. Yet this is the post which apparently makes Silicon think Passdog is "most likely" to be scum? That's incredibly weak, but since he took that dig, he had to come up with something, didn't he?
Now he's saying that it was Passdog's more detailed attack on AH in post #772 which made him suspicious of Passdog. He has to admit, however, that he never said anything of the sort at the time. What he said (in post #992,) was that he didn't know why he thought Passdog was scum. It was just a "gut" feeling.
In fact, Silicon said nothing else about Passdog being scummy the whole rest of the game day. And Passdog helpfully died that night.
What's his opinion on Az vs. me? The rumble in the jungle? he thrilla in Manilla? Right down the middle, baby. He can see valid points on both sides, but doesn't agree completely with either. And he doesn't even specify what points he agrees with or disagrees with. He just says it in a vague kind of way, then moves on to talk about something else. How helpful.
No votes for anyone Day 2. Has not even stated he finds anyone particularly suspicious for the entire game day.
3. Aloof. This is where the whole "interesting" point comes in. What is he saying with that? Or trying to say? Well, it sounds like he's taking it all in. He's analyzing the situation. He's thinking about the possibilities. Which would be great if he was actually doing any of those things. His posted thoughts, however, display no such insight nor analysis. He neither makes nor refutes any of the arguments of the moment. He observes. Aloof. And occasionally remarks on how "interesting" it all is to make us think he's paying attention.
4. Tons of agreement with other people. Lots of posts saying I want X to answer Y's question. I agree with X. This is kind of Buddy-buddy, in addition to being non-committal and is a great way to not post any actual content.
5. Meta-Game argument: This one comes from my personal perspective. If I assume Az is townie, then I wonder what the mafia must think of his (sorely misguided) attack on me. I'm thinking that, overall, they must be happy with it, two prominant posters going back and forth and no mafia being in the middle of it. If Az were successful in getting me lynched, great for the mafia. Another potentially dangerous townie down, plus, Azrael's credibility is shot.
For that very reason though, they have to be cautious. They don't want to whole-heartedly support Az in this (misguided) attack on me, lest their own credibility end up shot at the same time. They also don't want to defend me too strenuously - they want me lynched. Plus, how could they justify defending me too much? How could they be so sure I'm townie? So I imagine most mafia walking a middle line. Perhaps expressing agreement with a point here or there, perhaps not commenting much at all in an effort to stay out of it. Less likely to throw their full support behind one side or the other.
Why look, it's Silicon. Smack dead in the middle. He has made a grand total of 1 post commenting on the entire Az/Axel debate, to say he sees points on both sides. Other than that, he's lurking like Jack the Ripper to see how it all plays out.
EWP: I see Silicon has just posted his current feelings. How helpful. Still has not managed to specify what "play" in particular any player he listed has made which makes then suspicious.
And now he wants to re-read Passdog's case on AH. Cute.
I'm not sure what to say about him coming down on my side of the Az/Axel debate. I wonder, has my attack on him increased my credibility?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Calling Puzzle. I'm with Az in his list of suspects. Except for Arimnaes. Havn't really noticed anything from him. And Chucklez more scummy than Raf. Also Machin Shin has posted some suspect pieces, so he'd probably make my fourth. So only similar to Az's list.
Oddly enough, that's almost exactly the way my suspicions have been gravitating towards. Except a little more doubt about Chucklez, and a slight increase on my normal level of wariness towards Silicon. In some ways, he's always an easy, low-volume mark as townie, but the style is always dangerous to let pass as scum. *shrugs*
I'll be back again tomorrow, after a little more rest.
I'm sure you remember from Romance mafia that I'm typically very cautious about defending mafia (who I actually know about). So that's an interesting shot, coming from you.
ROOTK mafia? You didn't know about cpe, CC got vigged immediately after the first lynch before defending him ever came up, and then the only mafia left were you and me. I never needed defending until the very end when you were dead, so there was no need to be cautious about defending me.
The thing I took away from your performance in ROOTK mafia is that you're a good teammate to bounce ideas off but you need to be shielded because you draw fire being overly pushy (and your scumlogic is picked up more easily because it's uncharacteristic, which is what I'm picking up here, just as I did in random 1 right before someone vigged you). You were a top suspect from day 2 onwards in ROOTK. Some of my best work in that game was keeping the town off you without being called on it.
1. Lurker. We know this. To some extant it's a Silicon thing to lurk, but this is pretty bad. Especially the large gaps in recent days. The last three posts coming over a period of more than two weeks. There are large gaps in posting during Day 1 as well. Lurking w/o excuse = scummy. Multiple gaps in posting of 4, 5, and more days = no excuse.
All I can do about this is apologize for this. Obvious I have lurked quite a bit this game and I can't change what has passed. Most of the lurking in this game has actually been a result of work running me ragged coupled with the thread growing like crazy while I'm not there, causing me to have to spend what little time I have trying to catch up).
Quote from Axelrod »
2. Non-committal. Day 1 he says he feels MD is newb town (which he's going to have a better read on if he's mafia, right?) but can't explain why he feels that way. Of course this feeling doesn't stop him from waggoning MD to death at the end of the day, while criticizing his "horrible" posting, which he has not himself mentioned once.
As I mentioned in response to your pbpa, I had seen no reason to tell everyone else that MD was making horrible plays when everyone else had already said so.
Quote from Axelrod »
He also walked the middle road re: Absolutionis. Voted him for the reason "he can get behind this." Get behind what, pray tell? Then hides behind Puzzle's questions. Then "unvotes" like a good cautious townie, except he makes sure to tell everyone he doesn't think Abso. is any less likely to be scum. Is then wishy-washy when portions of Abso's claim are supported.
I could get behind a wagon on Abso because at the point the game was beginning to stagnate, and I felt a wagon on someone new would help shake up the day.
Quote from Axelrod »
The Passdog incident appears to be more of the same. He dropped his first little dig at Passdog without explanation. When pressed, he does say he thinks Passdog is "most likely" scum, but can give NO basis for this feeling beyond his "gut."
When asked to clarify when his "gut" started speaking to him about Passdog, he points to post #743, where Passdog did not vote AH, did not FOS AH, but said AH was giving him "weird" vibes (and took the time to say specifically what was giving him weird vibes, which Silicon constantly fails to do). Silicon, it seems, wants to criticize that "attack" (if you can call it an attack), but even in his criticism, he says "the post he [Passdog] quotes does have one instance of a questionable usage of 'we'" In other words, Passdog is making at least a partially legitimate point. Yet this is the post which apparently makes Silicon think Passdog is "most likely" to be scum? That's incredibly weak, but since he took that dig, he had to come up with something, didn't he?
Now he's saying that it was Passdog's more detailed attack on AH in post #772 which made him suspicious of Passdog. He has to admit, however, that he never said anything of the sort at the time. What he said (in post #992,) was that he didn't know why he thought Passdog was scum. It was just a "gut" feeling.
At the time (post 992) I didn't know why I had Passdog as scum. When asked after that dig, I went and looked up what made me first start feeling like he was scum. When DYH asked me where my suspicions first started, I gave the spot where he first struck my scumdar. I'm unsure of why I did not mention the next post of Passdogs.
Quote from Axelrod »
What's his opinion on Az vs. me? The rumble in the jungle? he thrilla in Manilla? Right down the middle, baby. He can see valid points on both sides, but doesn't agree completely with either. And he doesn't even specify what points he agrees with or disagrees with. He just says it in a vague kind of way, then moves on to talk about something else. How helpful.
I don't know why I did not mention which points I agreed with, if you'd like I'll go back and post which points I agree with. I would right now, however I don't remember off the top of my head and I am pressed for time, so I can't go back and look currently.
Quote from Axelrod »
3. Aloof. This is where the whole "interesting" point comes in. What is he saying with that? Or trying to say? Well, it sounds like he's taking it all in. He's analyzing the situation. He's thinking about the possibilities. Which would be great if he was actually doing any of those things. His posted thoughts, however, display no such insight nor analysis. He neither makes nor refutes any of the arguments of the moment. He observes. Aloof. And occasionally remarks on how "interesting" it all is to make us think he's paying attention.
Again about all I can do here is apologize for saying "interesting" and not expounding on them. I will do my best to break this habit.
Quote from Axelrod »
4. Tons of agreement with other people. Lots of posts saying I want X to answer Y's question. I agree with X. This is kind of Buddy-buddy, in addition to being non-committal and is a great way to not post any actual content.
I apologize again.
Quote from Axelrod »
5. Meta-Game argument: This one comes from my personal perspective. If I assume Az is townie, then I wonder what the mafia must think of his (sorely misguided) attack on me. I'm thinking that, overall, they must be happy with it, two prominant posters going back and forth and no mafia being in the middle of it. If Az were successful in getting me lynched, great for the mafia. Another potentially dangerous townie down, plus, Azrael's credibility is shot.
For that very reason though, they have to be cautious. They don't want to whole-heartedly support Az in this (misguided) attack on me, lest their own credibility end up shot at the same time. They also don't want to defend me too strenuously - they want me lynched. Plus, how could they justify defending me too much? How could they be so sure I'm townie? So I imagine most mafia walking a middle line. Perhaps expressing agreement with a point here or there, perhaps not commenting much at all in an effort to stay out of it. Less likely to throw their full support behind one side or the other.
Why look, it's Silicon. Smack dead in the middle. He has made a grand total of 1 post commenting on the entire Az/Axel debate, to say he sees points on both sides. Other than that, he's lurking like Jack the Ripper to see how it all plays out.
Hmm... I can definately see how it can be viewed like that. I was not waiting to see how it played out however, I mostly just skimmed over the later posts really, as it was far too much of a distraction.
Quote from Axelrod »
EWP: I see Silicon has just posted his current feelings. How helpful. Still has not managed to specify what "play" in particular any player he listed has made which makes then suspicious.
I really gotta stop assuming people can read my mind I guess
As far as Jobie goes, his 'hammer' near the end of day one never sat well with me.
AH has made several posts recently that have given me the wrong feeling.
Quote from Axelrod »
I'm not sure what to say about him coming down on my side of the Az/Axel debate. I wonder, has my attack on him increased my credibility?
*sigh* No, I was already feeling that before your attack on me. Obviously I can't expect you to fully believe that, as I have never before mentioned it before in thread.
No, no it doesn't. You're making a statement here without backing it up. kops' signal isn't related to "Lene, God of Humility", which the cultists say is their cult leader. kops' signal showed he probably didn't really know what he was signalling to.
I believe you are knowingly taking this statement out of context. The two of us were among the first to realize that it was an obsolete reason, and we even discussed it one post.
This is an attempt to win logic points at the expense of the truth.
Quote from Rafaelk »
kops has claimed to be the town doctor, and yet he was signalling something where he didn't know what it was. I mean, either he's misleading a townie who's signalling for a good reason or he's drawn the attention of a scum signalling for an evil reason. If he thinks the town should know about this signal, he could speak up, but he just wanted himself to know about the signal.
If he only wanted himself to know about the signal, why post instead of taking a note? For whatever reason, he wanted a public record that he'd seen it and had not immediately exposed it. Does that do much good as town? Likely not. Does it do much good as mafia either? Hardly. It is not a tell, for or against, unless you can show that it benefits him as mafia.
Quote from Rafaelk »
Coupled with the manner of his claim (claiming a fake subtitle, then back-pedalling on the subtitle when caught out and claiming doc) this is just not townie behaviour. And we have two claimed cultists and made it clear we won't lynch non-leader cultists, so he's not an ordinary cultist or he would have tried that by now. He's cult leader or other scum. QED.
The manner of his claim is also consistent with a townie attempting to shield a power role from exposure under false pretenses (which you played a role in supporting, without creating a detailed case that he was mafia).
Whether he's scum or town, the rationale that forced him to claim; the suspicions of him as cult, were faulty.
And I wonder why you are still supporting the hypothesis that he could be a cult leader, unless you happen to believe our claimed cultists are lying.
Quote from Rafaelk »
I see what you did there.
But trying to twist this into "it must be straight reversion OR a death cult" is just more of your garbage.
Ad hominem attack, and a glaring misrepresentation.
My quote was this:
Quote from Azrael »
But yeah, if it's not a straight reversion cult, we're facing three NKs a night, and the game was completely unbalanced from the start. There very well might be a twist we don't know about it (protective role for the CL, for instance), but if it's the recruits guzzling poisoned kool-aid, then DM was completely off his rockers.
I addressed the possibility of a non-reversion, non-death cult in several earlier posts: it is the rarest form of cult, it strands the remainder without a win condition, and generally causes the game to warp and disintegrate as the survivors are left with no viable chance of winning but retain their ability to vote and influence others' chances, which tends to favor the mafia over the town by turning a large block of voters into permanent neutrals.
Second, I allowed for the possibility of other potential modifications other than your typical straight reversion cult.
Thirdly and most importantly, you're attempting to attack me on wording alone, while failing to address the actual argument, which you are at a disadvantage to win. A death cult is not a credible option in this game. If you still believe it is, then justify it, or concede that point. If you're town, don't waste time trying to attack my credibility instead of engaging my argument.
Quote from Rafaelk »
Creating a false dichotomy to try and force your view through. I am very disappointed in you.
The last sentence is another cheap debating tactic, designed to portray you as an authority figure frowning upon a misguided child. Substanceless rhetorical trickery.
Quote from Rafaelk »
Total BS, and you know it. It's outlined above anyway, in case you have trouble finding it again, but it's not the first time I (and others) have said this stuff.
Yes, he's been attacked for his falsely-extracted claim a number of times already. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actually examining his voting and behavioral stances, some actual hard research.
Right now, you have superficial case based entirely on claim evidence, which doesn't indicate whether he was townie trying to preserve a power role, or scum trying to be evasive. You'll need more than that.
Quote from Rafaelk »
Yes, you do. Trying to out-guess the mod is rarely smart, and you know this, and you say this to other people. I know you were second-guessing the mod (that's why I called you out on it, duh). I am not second-guessing the mod. I am pointing out that for you to assume that it's a straight reversion cult (as all your numbers games did) is not smart because you don't know if that's the sort of cult it is.
Here's the problem, Raf. You're equating analyzing the likelihood of a claim based on game balance with "outguessing the mod", which usually means speculating on the setup without evidence.
But game balance is something we can observe, predict, and draw conclusions on given enough data.
The data we need to draw conclusions on the likelihood of a death cult, we already have. The number of players alive, the expectation that we can expect at least two kills each night, and the reality that a death cult, a more powerful anti-town force than a second SK would be, is something that would make victory for the town almost impossible.
There are other possibilities which we cannot completely eliminate based on the evidence at hand, but a death cult is completely preposterous, and trying to use it as a rationale to push for the immediate dispatching of the cult leader is a mafia tell.
Quote from Rafaelk »
It's *amazing* (ie. not amazing) how you didn't seek to follow up on your arguments that forcing a suspected cult leader to claim didn't help the town.
I stand by that argument. As you very well know, it's not something either of us can win on until we know his actual identity.
But if he was a cult leader, and we accept that eliminating the cult today is not in our best interests, it was a scum tell. And obviously it's also a scum tell if he is townie.
ROOTK mafia? You didn't know about cpe, CC got vigged immediately after the first lynch before defending him ever came up, and then the only mafia left were you and me. I never needed defending until the very end when you were dead, so there was no need to be cautious about defending me.
I'm not talking about observed behavior, I'm referring to my statements during and after the game, which you read, in which I revealed that my philosophy as mafia is never to tie myself too closely to my compatriots.
Az, could you do us a favor and stop using your argument that lynching the cult is not a good idea for the town as an accepted premise until you can actually get across an argument for it that people will agree with?
As far as I can tell, the only reason we haven't lynched kops yet is not because you're arguing that he isn't a good lynch, but because you continuously throw up distractions that keep us from productively ending the day.
I'm going to ask that if you insist that a death cult is preposterous, then you also assume that a reversion cult is, as well. You and Raf have gone to enough lengths to point out just how unbalanced both are that it is not helpful to speculate on those as possibilities any more.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
On point 3, re: Jobie, I'm getting the feeling about him that I had about Loran in Star Trek mafia. People who continually spew potential scum tells can't continue to be given a pass on that being their normal behavior. Think about the massive change in outcome lynching Loran (SK) day 2 could have provided in that game. I had that same feeling about Treigit day one, here. That certainly would've been a far better alternative than the newbie lynch.
I'm inclined to agree with you on point 4. PBPAs that examing every single post, particularly in a thread of this length, become tedious not only to write, but to read. However, doing an incomplete PBPA (only using select posts) tends to draw fire for the "why didn't you include post X where I look townie, yadda yadda". Simply summing up the case into a general profile probably leads to more folks doing their own homework, additional conversation, and is far less painful to read.
Az, could you do us a favor and stop using your argument that lynching the cult is not a good idea for the town as an accepted premise until you can actually get across an argument for it that people will agree with?
As far as I can tell, I'm way ahead of you on that.
Here was as close as I came to doing what you accused me of in my last post:
Quote from Azrael »
But if he was a cult leader, and we accept that eliminating the cult today is not in our best interests, it was a scum tell. And obviously it's also a scum tell if he is townie.
But that post is exactly the kind of qualified statement that you're requesting. It's an if/then statement, not a blanket condemnation.
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
As far as I can tell, the only reason we haven't lynched kops yet is not because you're arguing that he isn't a good lynch, but because you continuously throw up distractions that keep us from productively ending the day.
Distractions? CP, the case against Kops is built entirely on his claim behavior, and those attacking him have not yet demonstrated that his behavior is inconsistent with a townie attempting to conceal a power role.
Until they can come up with something better than that, I am going to continue to "distract" the town from lynching a claimed doctor on a slipshod, superficial case.
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
I'm going to ask that if you insist that a death cult is preposterous, then you also assume that a reversion cult is, as well. You and Raf have gone to enough lengths to point out just how unbalanced both are that it is not helpful to speculate on those as possibilities any more.
I don't think he's done a very convincing job at all of pointing out that a reversion cult is preposterous, actually. It's quite possible to either leave it as a very weak anti-town force, or to modify it slightly to accomadate for the risk of back-stabbing.
Since we remembered how often cornered scum go the doc claim to draw out the real doc?
I POINTED OUT THAT KOPS HAD NOT BEEN COUNTERCLAIMED AS DOC, AND HE GIVES ME THIS!? :xd:
It doesn't change the fact that kops hasn't been counterclaimed at all! Try answering the question, silly! We've only had 2 people die who could have been the real doc. Two! What are the odds that they were the doc? No, I'm confident it is kops.
Quote from Raf »
Besides, same argument (and potentially the same response, come to that) apply to Chucklez.
MOMMY SAYS THAT IS FUNNY!
Chuckie-scum claimed a faith healer, which is veryveryvery unlikely to get counterclaimed. This is why kops should tell us exactly what he is! So we can verify!
Quote from Raf »
There's entirely too many people in this game not voting. Take a stand, people.
As far as I can tell, I'm way ahead of you on that.
Here was as close as I came to doing what you accused me of in my last post:
Quote from Azrael »
Quote from RafaelK »
It's *amazing* (ie. not amazing) how you didn't seek to follow up on your arguments that forcing a suspected cult leader to claim didn't help the town.
I stand by that argument. As you very well know, it's not something either of us can win on until we know his actual identity.
But if he was a cult leader, and we accept that eliminating the cult today is not in our best interests, it was a scum tell. And obviously it's also a scum tell if he is townie.
But that post is exactly the kind of qualified statement that you're requesting. It's an if/then statement, not a blanket condemnation.
Well, to start off, I don't even really have any idea what you were trying to say with that particular statement. Could you clarify?
I apologize if I'm using impressions and not explicitly stated facts to form my opinion here, but I get the distinct feeling that the main basis for your suspicion against both Axel and Raf are that they believe that the cult is something the town needs to deal with.
I know you'll disagree with this, and you can obviously point out a few places where you've made cases against them that involved points other than their point of view on the cult, but I just don't see that you actually have much of a case if you don't assume that lynching the cult is A Bad Thing. You continue to press them, despite this, using their stances on the cult situation as points against them. I see this as assuming the conclusion, because no one honestly knows for sure whether lynching the cult is a pro-town play or not.
Distractions? CP, the case against Kops is built entirely on his claim behavior, and those attacking him have not yet demonstrated that his behavior is inconsistent with a townie attempting to conceal a power role.
Until they can come up with something better than that, I am going to continue to "distract" the town from lynching a claimed doctor on a slipshod, superficial case.
You know, claim behavior is pretty strong evidence most of the time. Let's look at his.
First, he subclaims Arvoreen. By now, we all know that Arvoreen is a God of War. When pressed to claim, he claims Lawful Good God of War and Vigilance. (One wonders what his motivation for embellishing his rolename could be.) When pressed further, he claims that he didn't actually have the "Lawful Good" part, but he definitely did have the "War and Vigilance" part. This eliminates any chance that he's merely trying to explain who is God is, but is actually lying about his rolename, once he is not believed and comes out as, apparently not God of War or God of Vigilance, but God of some unknown thing that he won't admit to. It's only at this point that he claims to be the doc.
Now, I'll grant that if kops is Arvoreen, but isn't the god of either of the things he brought up, then he is almost certainly God of Protection, but that really isn't helpful at this point because it assumes that kops is town and telling the truth from the getgo, when there is every reason to believe otherwise. If he were merely trying not to say God of Protection, why did he breadcrumb his role in the first place? Why did he falseclaim as God of War and Vigilance, rather than just not say? Why did he try to embellish his role to make himself sound better (this was apparently his only motivation) by adding the Lawful Good touch? Why did he refuse to admit to his real rolename even after he claimed doc?
All these things are very easily explicable if he's scum, but make no sense at all if he isn't.
In any case, you're making an argument that kops is probably really the doctor, when we have two people claiming to be members of a cult that kops is in position to be the head of. I don't even see how the contention can be made that kops is anything less than a recruit, let alone actually town.
I don't think he's done a very convincing job at all of pointing out that a reversion cult is preposterous, actually. It's quite possible to either leave it as a very weak anti-town force, or to modify it slightly to accomadate for the risk of back-stabbing.
You act as if D_M doesn't want the cult to have a serious chance of winning. The major problem with a death cult, as you pointed out, was that once the CL is gone, the cult is gone, even if they were in position to win easily. The major problem with a reversion cult is exactly the same thing, except that recruits are more likely to backstab that way. Both are thoroughly preposterous. The question of who benefits once the cult dies is completely not an issue: giving the town an enormous advantage (with the death of a reversion cult) is no more likely to be balanced than giving the mafia an enormous advantage (with the death of a death cult). The question is what is to be done to make the cult have a serious chance at winning, and I think the obvious answer is to leave the cultists alive but still cult.
Yes, you've argued that "this strands the cultists with no WC," but that isn't strictly true. For all practical purposes, all such a cult would have to do to win would be to convince the town to let some of them live, which would patently not be very hard. This way, they're a threat to the town because the town can't win while any of them are alive, they're a threat to the mafia because they act as something similar to a continuously growing mason group, and they have a serious chance of winning because one kill doesn't completely undo them.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Well, to start off, I don't even really have any idea what you were trying to say with that particular statement. Could you clarify?
I was saying that it's possible that what they've been doing is a scum tell.
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
I apologize if I'm using impressions and not explicitly stated facts to form my opinion here, but I get the distinct feeling that the main basis for your suspicion against both Axel and Raf are that they believe that the cult is something the town needs to deal with.
At this point, I'm more focused on them for the pressure on Kops, my notes on them from day one, and their history of evasion/deflection. And it's worth noting that the pressure from them has continued, despite the weakening of the cult charge against him.
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
I know you'll disagree with this, and you can obviously point out a few places where you've made cases against them that involved points other than their point of view on the cult, but I just don't see that you actually have much of a case if you don't assume that lynching the cult is A Bad Thing. You continue to press them, despite this, using their stances on the cult situation as points against them. I see this as assuming the conclusion, because no one honestly knows for sure whether lynching the cult is a pro-town play or not.
I wouldn't put it that way. There's a difference of opinion amongst the town. One group, comprised of myself, Cropcircles, Puzzle, and Aurorasparrow think it's bad play. Yourself, Axelrod, and Rafaelk believe otherwise. And others have joined in the fray from time to time.
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
You know, claim behavior is pretty strong evidence most of the time. Let's look at his.
Oh, I agree. But if you ignore the rest of the evidence, you're putting yourself at the mercy of the mod, and of luck.
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
First, he subclaims Arvoreen. By now, we all know that Arvoreen is a God of War. When pressed to claim, he claims Lawful Good God of War and Vigilance. (One wonders what his motivation for embellishing his rolename could be.) When pressed further, he claims that he didn't actually have the "Lawful Good" part, but he definitely did have the "War and Vigilance" part. This eliminates any chance that he's merely trying to explain who is God is, but is actually lying about his rolename, once he is not believed and comes out as, apparently not God of War or God of Vigilance, but God of some unknown thing that he won't admit to. It's only at this point that he claims to be the doc.
Now, I'll grant that if kops is Arvoreen, but isn't the god of either of the things he brought up, then he is almost certainly God of Protection, but that really isn't helpful at this point because it assumes that kops is town and telling the truth from the getgo, when there is every reason to believe otherwise. If he were merely trying not to say God of Protection, why did he breadcrumb his role in the first place?
Because the nature of his abilities remains ambiguous, if he's described merely as a God of War and Vigilance.
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
Why did he falseclaim as God of War and Vigilance, rather than just not say?
Refusing to claim his name at all would have been unlikely to fly, given the pressure brought upon him.
Also, why would he false-claim God of War and vigilance as scum, then suddenly switch his title to something else? Why not simply go ahead with the doc-claim as is, without admitting to a lie?
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
Why did he try to embellish his role to make himself sound better (this was apparently his only motivation) by adding the Lawful Good touch?
He doesn't want to die?
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
Why did he refuse to admit to his real rolename even after he claimed doc?
Why would he do so as scum, either?
Quote from Carrion Pigeon »
All these things are very easily explicable if he's scum, but make no sense at all if he isn't.
I think a number of these things are equally explicable as townie, and some of them don't have any rationale explanation whether he's town or scum.
Also, lynching someone because you don't have an easy explanation for events is often a grave mistake. Take the Armlx lynch in SC, for example.
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
In any case, you're making an argument that kops is probably really the doctor, when we have two people claiming to be members of a cult that kops is in position to be the head of. I don't even see how the contention can be made that kops is anything less than a recruit, let alone actually town.
So your position is that Treigit and Mosschops are lying to protect him?
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
You act as if D_M doesn't want the cult to have a serious chance of winning. The major problem with a death cult, as you pointed out, was that once the CL is gone, the cult is gone, even if they were in position to win easily. The major problem with a reversion cult is exactly the same thing, except that recruits are more likely to backstab that way. Both are thoroughly preposterous. The question of who benefits once the cult dies is completely not an issue: giving the town an enormous advantage (with the death of a reversion cult) is no more likely to be balanced than giving the mafia an enormous advantage (with the death of a death cult). The question is what is to be done to make the cult have a serious chance at winning, and I think the obvious answer is to leave the cultists alive but still cult.
Ok, there's a lot of things to cover in this paragraph.
Yes, a reversion cult has a long shot of winning. But so does a SK. The difference is, a reversion cult doesn't interfere with anyone else's chances of winning the game if it's destroyed. It's a difficult role to succeed with, but it adds flavor to the game without disrupting balance. It's no more preposterous than a single SK in a normal game.
Second, the town doesn't gain any advantage from the destruction of a reversion cult. It simply regains parity.
Whereas the death cult truly does hurt the town, irrevocably.
Now, if DM was serious about giving the cult a chance of winning, he could go with the non-reversion plan. But that's assuming that DM is valuing giving the cult leader a better chance to win more than he's valuing the overall health of the game. (And it's assuming that he didn't like his previous cult setup, and looked up the most obscure version of a cult to replace it).
Quote from Carrion Pigeons »
Yes, you've argued that "this strands the cultists with no WC," but that isn't strictly true. For all practical purposes, all such a cult would have to do to win would be to convince the town to let some of them live, which would patently not be very hard. This way, they're a threat to the town because the town can't win while any of them are alive, they're a threat to the mafia because they act as something similar to a continuously growing mason group, and they have a serious chance of winning because one kill doesn't completely undo them.
And that's exactly why they're screwed: they're a threat to both groups, but their only power is their ability to vote. The town can trump that with greater numbers, and the mafia can trump that with their kill.
Firstly, I actually find this really amusing that all this:
Now, I'll grant that if kops is Arvoreen, but isn't the god of either of the things he brought up, then he is almost certainly God of Protection, but that really isn't helpful at this point because it assumes that kops is town and telling the truth from the getgo, when there is every reason to believe otherwise. If he were merely trying not to say God of Protection, why did he breadcrumb his role in the first place? Why did he falseclaim as God of War and Vigilance, rather than just not say? Why did he try to embellish his role to make himself sound better (this was apparently his only motivation) by adding the Lawful Good touch? Why did he refuse to admit to his real rolename even after he claimed doc?
is directed at Az and not me. Regardless, I will try to answer it as best I can but I doubt most of the answers will satisfy you.
If he were merely trying not to say God of Protection, why did he breadcrumb his role in the first place?
Again, I cite SftD where not breadcrumbing essentially got me killed. In this game with so many more available roles, I cede that it was not anywhere near as likely the same issue came up, experience from the immediate past clouded my vision.
Why did he falseclaim as God of War and Vigilance, rather than just not say?
I believe I mentioned this before, but in hindsite, that's one hell of a good question.
Why did he try to embellish his role to make himself sound better (this was apparently his only motivation) by adding the Lawful Good touch?
Well, my thought process at the time was that God of War can very easily be mafia, so I thought I would preemptively clear that up by adding the lawful good bit.
Why did he refuse to admit to his real rolename even after he claimed doc?
You are correct, it's protection. I will have to go back and look at my post from the time, but I don't actually remember specifically avoiding claiming protection. It may have been because I simply forgot in lieu of the semi-ability claim, since at that point a mere subtitle didn't seem to important.
Finally, clarification on my ability:
I am a straight doc, with one twist. This twist may well become apparent to the town, but until it does, I'm not going to say what it is, though it is important that I mention that it exists.
OOC: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA can we lynch somebody yet?!?!?!
Sorry, had to get that out of my system. The case against Silicon seems good, and when his defense consists of "sorry I won't do it again" and "I don't know why I did that" it only makes him look worse.
Unvote, Vote Silicon
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
At this point, I'm more focused on them for the pressure on Kops, my notes on them from day one, and their history of evasion/deflection. And it's worth noting that the pressure from them has continued, despite the weakening of the cult charge against him.
For the record, my "pressure" on kops this game day has consisted of asking him for his claim, after he was caught signaling to Tregit, and then after he made a show of delaying while he asked the Mod for some "clarification" about his role, and then, of course, after his lying about it.
You will note (or you won't), that I am currently advocating for the lynch of someone else, so please don't insinuate that I'm "pressuring" kops right now as though I want him lynched/vigged.
If he's town, however, he's made at least 2 bondheaded plays, including signaling to Tregit for no reason and lying about his subtitle--and lying by calling himself God of "War and Vigilance" of all things.
I wouldn't put it that way. There's a difference of opinion amongst the town. One group, comprised of myself, Cropcircles, Puzzle, and Aurorasparrow think it's bad play. Yourself, Axelrod, and Rafaelk believe otherwise. And others have joined in the fray from time to time.
You will also recall (or you won't), that I have not ever been advocating for the lynch of a claimed Cultist as a preferred play, but as an acceptable play in the absence of better alternatives.
You will recall (or you won't), that part of my continued pressure on Tregit (not kops) was due to my continuing uncertainly as to whether or not this Cult he claimed he was a part of actually existed at all.
The fact that Mosschop has now come out fairly well establishes the presence of a Cult. I'm satisfied in that regard, though I would not go so far as to blindly accept their description of how said Cult works. But nevertheless, it removes one piece of the reason I was advocating for Tregit to be lynched. And look, I'm voting someone else.
Frankly, the kops as Cult Leader angle has never appealed to me all that much. (1) it entirely depends on the word "Time" having some relevance to the Cult, which Mosschop is disputing. Certainly Mosschop could be putting his head on the block to try and save his Leader (or could be the Leader), but I put those farther down my list of likely possibilities for this situation. (2) It seems backwards to me anyway. Why would the recruit need to signal to his leader? Why would the leader signal back? If kops is Cult--and the signal had anything to do with anything--it can't be a simple reversion Cult, or whichever of Tregit or kops was not the leader should have ratted the other out a long time ago.
I mean, Tregit could still be the Leader, and the Cult could still have something to do with "Time", but Mosschop's play then makes no sense-- unless his own life is somehow threatened should we lynch Tregit.
So I still have many questions about the Cult, but I'm not doubting that it exists anymore. And with a good target in Silicon, I'm happy to have my vote there.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I need to review the thread, and possibly (shudder) reread before I make up my mind.
I don't think lynching a claimed, uncountered doctor is a viable option in our current position, regardless of how badly he may have played his claim. Chucklez claim does not instill a similar confidence in me, since it's considerably less useful to the town if it's true, and much more difficult to disprove if it's false.
On the other hand, he has promised content soon, and silicon and Jobie are not looking great to me right now.
There will likely be a massive information dump post coming up from me in a few days, after I reread. Stay tuned.
I was saying that it's possible that what they've been doing is a scum tell.
Ah. Okay. Here I was thinking you were saying it WAS a scum tell. Sure.
At this point, I'm more focused on them for the pressure on Kops, my notes on them from day one, and their history of evasion/deflection. And it's worth noting that the pressure from them has continued, despite the weakening of the cult charge against him.
Weakening huh? How? If the case against kops-as-cult is weakening, I'm off it instantly, but I must not have noticed where that happened.
I wouldn't put it that way. There's a difference of opinion amongst the town. One group, comprised of myself, Cropcircles, Puzzle, and Aurorasparrow think it's bad play. Yourself, Axelrod, and Rafaelk believe otherwise. And others have joined in the fray from time to time.
Erm, I was referencing your attack on Axel and Raf being based on your beliefs about the cult. Could you clarify what this has to do with that?
Oh, I agree. But if you ignore the rest of the evidence, you're putting yourself at the mercy of the mod, and of luck.
Is there some evidence that suggests he's town that I'm missing?
Because the nature of his abilities remains ambiguous, if he's described merely as a God of War and Vigilance.
Again, huh?
If he were merely trying not to say God of Protection, why did he breadcrumb his role in the first place?
Because the nature of his abilities remains ambiguous, if he's described merely as a God of War and Vigilance.
Is there some connection between my question and your answer that I'm not seeing?
Refusing to claim his name at all would have been unlikely to fly, given the pressure brought upon him.
Not the issue: he wasn't afraid to claim Arvoreen.
Also, why would he false-claim God of War and vigilance as scum, then suddenly switch his title to something else? Why not simply go ahead with the doc-claim as is, without admitting to a lie?
If he were town, I could maybe believe this kind of behavior. As scum, it seems much more likely that he would try to explain away every issue that gets brought up however he can.
Claiming War and Vigilance suggests that he 1) looked up the role on the internet, rather than saw it in his PM, and 2) deliberately chose a role that could claim doc without explicitly saying so. Both these things seem scummy to me, somehow.
He doesn't want to die?
Okay, sure. On the other hand, it looks to me like he was trying to draw attention to the excellent falseclaim he concocted.
Why would he do so as scum, either?
I don't know, but nevertheless, it suggests deception of some kind.
I think a number of these things are equally explicable as townie, and some of them don't have any rationale explanation whether he's town or scum.
Also, lynching someone because you don't have an easy explanation for events is often a grave mistake. Take the Armlx lynch in SC, for example.
I was quite happy with the armlx lynch, thank you very much.
Everything I see points to kops attempting to deceive somebody, somehow. The points I can't explain as scum seem to be in any case clearly deceptive. It really isn't the same.
So your position is that Treigit and Mosschops are lying to protect him?
I really think I'm missing something. What the heck are you talking about?
Ok, there's a lot of things to cover in this paragraph.
Yes, a reversion cult has a long shot of winning. But so does a SK. The difference is, a reversion cult doesn't interfere with anyone else's chances of winning the game if it's destroyed. It's a difficult role to succeed with, but it adds flavor to the game without disrupting balance. It's no more preposterous than a single SK in a normal game.
Second, the town doesn't gain any advantage from the destruction of a reversion cult. It simply regains parity.
Whereas the death cult truly does hurt the town, irrevocably.
Now, if DM was serious about giving the cult a chance of winning, he could go with the non-reversion plan. But that's assuming that DM is valuing giving the cult leader a better chance to win more than he's valuing the overall health of the game. (And it's assuming that he didn't like his previous cult setup, and looked up the most obscure version of a cult to replace it).
A reversion cult has a much worse chance of winning than an SK, due to the likelihood of backstabbers. And sure, the town doesn't gain any advantage from the creation of a mason group of potentially enormous size. Unless you consider masons to be pro-town, maybe. Then, yeah, they do.
I thought Raf made this point clear.
The overall health of the game is not going to be benefitted by a rversion cult more than a non-reversion cult. As to whether it's obscure or not, I'll just say that I tend to doubt that D_M would put two identical roles into his two games, considering how much effort he puts into making original roles.
And that's exactly why they're screwed: they're a threat to both groups, but their only power is their ability to vote. The town can trump that with greater numbers, and the mafia can trump that with their kill.
Vote Azrael.
But if they can get to four or five players, they may very well be able to force both the town and the mafia to choose between letting the other win, or the cult. That's a good position to be in.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I'm not talking about observed behavior, I'm referring to my statements during and after the game, which you read, in which I revealed that my philosophy as mafia is never to tie myself too closely to my compatriots.
ObCheapShot: I suppose that would be a result of the fiasco that resulted from tying everyone together in random 1?
To make an actual point, I'm aware of what you said, but it's a very WIFOM point. People say lots of stuff about how they act as town or as mafia, then march off and do the opposite.
I'll follow up the rest of your post later if need be. For now, obviously I disagree with you on stuff (except that I agree I go for cheap debating points and rhetoric etc all the time, but so do you and so do most other people here, so what? It's fun). And I note that you've backpedalled on saying that there's never been a case made for kops as mafia into saying there's no case made based on "actual hard research". And your definition of that includes behavioural stances, most of the stuff against him IS behavioural (most notably in the reasons for his signalling and in the manner of his deceiving false claim, and more recently in the way he's waving his claimed power role as a weapon rather than a shield).
There's a number of posts I haven't even read yet after this post of yours, so I'll read those and then probably follow this all up tomorrow.
It doesn't change the fact that kops hasn't been counterclaimed at all! Try answering the question, silly! We've only had 2 people die who could have been the real doc. Two! What are the odds that they were the doc? No, I'm confident it is kops.
I can't let this go until tomorrow. You're saying that a full doc should come out to counterclaim kops if they exist? Even if kops was claiming full normal doc (which he has been hedging on), I wouldn't normally advise a doc to come out to counterclaim someone under as much suspicion as kops, not on day 2.
Chuckie-scum claimed a faith healer, which is veryveryvery unlikely to get counterclaimed.
But kops (who hasn't said what kind of doc he is) is very likely to get counterclaimed immediately! Right!
This is why kops should tell us exactly what he is! So we can verify!
So just a minute, the guy you're strenuously pushing as the town doc, who must be the town doc because no-one's counterclaimed him, and you want him to spill more information?
It makes sense for me (with my view of kops) to push for that, but it doesn't make sense for you.
Well I'm still waiting on the recruited to answer my question. Kops doesn't fill me with confidence at all. I wouldn't mind lynching him based on his horrible Time trail, the lawful good part and LAL. Vote: Kops
I think that all these big PBPA's should stop. Right now. It's focusing too much on one person's actions, leaving him in the spotlight while most other players are in the background.
We haven't had any PBPA's lately; what are you talking about?
If you're talking about people having conversations that involve answering more than one point at a time, then those aren't going to stop. They are one of the few things that allow analysts like Az to communicate their points at all and still make sense.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Er yeah, I meant the long point by point rebuttals. It's very confusing to read, since it requires back slogging in order to figure out what the first point was. If that's how they like to get their point across, fine, but most likely I'll end up simply skimming the long ones.
I remember a point someone made, I think it was Az, and said that in the case of a non-reversion, non-death cult, the town could race them with numbers, and the mafia could race them with NK's. How exactly does anyone race the cult without knowing who they are? The cult would be just like another mafia without a nightkill (it makes more sense that in a non-reversion cult the cultists know who each other are).
All of Kops' D1 (relevant) posts that mention me by name
(Dang, can't hyper link and compose this right now, sorry):
147(see above)
193
As for Treigit... he is definately fishing, probably in dangerous waters. He is also breadcrumbing, also in dangerous waters. However, I can't really decide if he is really scumm or not... however, if anything there is definately more solid basis for a bandwagon against him than MD, and I really think it's Time for people to start thinking harder about their votes.
332
And what other bandwagon have I even been on? I don't remember if I ever took a stance on Chucklez, and while I did say I was interested in the case on Treigit, I was never actually convinced enough to vote him.
335
I still think Treigit looks somewhat scummy, but there is more reason to belive that he is town than scum for me. You, on the other hand, are making non-existant cases against me, then saying you were wrong... then changing your mind again and saying you weren't wrong, with absolutely no reasons cited as to why you weren't wrong. You are contradicting yourself here and it really looks like you're just trying to keep attention on me before people change their minds and decide I don't look scummy anymore... Of course I can't vote you now or I'd be being a hypocrite, but otherwise I probably would.
478
On Treigit: I still think that while a lot of the things he has said seem like they contain a lot of significant scum tells, I'm still reading him as town nevertheless. ATM, I don't have time to go back and look through his posts to give a comprehensive analysis on him, but I will try to do so soon. Unfortunately though, as my limited access starts on Sunday, I really can't guarantee that it will happen.
525
OK, firstly, as for Treigit, the reasons I was reading him as town I now realize were really bad. They were:
1) I picked up his breadcrumbs and even though the god he sub-claimed (at least the one I think he subclaimed) is likely in the game and doesn't sound too scummy, I now realize that this really shouldn't be any deciding factor on wether or not I think he's scummy.
2) His play is extremely similar to mine when I'm town. He has a bunch of not well thought out posts that look scummy and he defends them by saying that whoever called him on it is probably right and that h now realizes he acted scummy which is a lot like what I do. Of course, this reason isn't very good either.
So I've decided I'm not so sure that I'm reading Treigit as town anymore but I do think I'd rather vote leilani
1099
Treigit: Looong standing bandwagon here, and while I may not totally agree with it, I'll be willing to join it if it will make this day end. The #1 argument I have against this wagon is that it will extract another claim which we do not want. Because of this, I think we need to focus on one of the 3 people who have already claimed, at least in part.
I'm not sure ATM if he referred to me in others by other monikers or implication, but those look quite a bit like distancing/fence sitting to me, and are less defnsible from a town perspective. Also, who thought Cronos was "likely in the game"
So. How 'bout that Silicon fellow? He seems shady.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Have I mentioned lately that my top suspects ATM are Axel and Rafk, followed by Arim and Chucklez? Just in case I havent'.
Oh. And I just remembered that since Bluesoul replaced out of the thread, that means no one was planning on doing a PBPA to cover Axel's early posts. *sigh*
Perhaps I'll do that sometime, perhaps I'll wait on Puzzle to get back up to speed.
In the meantime, if anyone stops by, make sure to leave something, if only to state your current thoughts on the wagons or lack thereof.
Vote Azrael.
@Az: can you please do an overview case on RafK because as I said in my above post, I have my suspicions on RafK but I need to reread to confirm them because I don't remember any details. As such, it would be helpful to have someone give a preliminary overview of his case.
Has anyone thought of the possibility that these two could be mafia covering each other's backs? Is Kops the cult leader? I'm so confused.
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I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
Az and Raf have pointed out that a death-cult and a pure reversion cult don't make any sense, so we're either forced to accept that the cult doesn't make any sense, which is usually true, or we have to accept that the cult probably doesn't revert and doesn't die.
Either way, lynching kops is a great idea.
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That's a really big gamble, and Bluesoul got neutral on Treigit, not scum.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I believe I'm finally going to take a closer at Silicon now.
Post #25
Random vote.
Post #72
Another random vote.
208
Thinks MD is newb town. Just a feeling.
256
Can't put in words why he thinks MD is town. Just a hunch, but not a strong hunch. Will see if he can come up with something more concrete later that day.
(nine days pass)
403
Apologizes for not posting in a week. Doesn't even make an excuse for himself which is almost refreshing. Unvotes his random vote, and says many look scummy. Tregit and kops being the top 2. No particular reasons given for these.
450
Says Tregit is looking better, but still not convinced he's town. Now says Arimnaes and bluesoul are also "fairly high up." Then barns CC on his reasons to vote CP. Vote CP.
Scummy.
460
Unvotes CP, but "still watching" him. Says he "still" thinks the best bet is Tregit (which he has never said to this point.) Vote Tregit.
Scummy.
494
fos kops for this post. I have already criticized and voted kops for this very thing, so here he's kind of barning me. No other reasons given. Still thinks Tregit is "the play."
(4 days pass)
566
Jumps on the Absolutionis wagon. This post is incredibly hypocritical--he has given NO opinion of his pwn about anyone the entire game--and the fact he recognizes it doesn't really make it less so.
652
Not impressed with Absolutionis' response (which several people have already said.) Wants Abso to answer Puzzle's questions. Still expressing no opinion that has not been expressed by someone else first. Usually multiple people, in fact.
709
This is interesting. Unvotes Abso. for the reason that he's "a might" too close to bein lynched. Says nothing to indicate he is any less suspicious of Abso. Then goes into some detail on why he doesn't like Tregit's "Pantheon Plan." Which I don't think people are particularly talking about at that point.
Says the Abso. wagon grew fast, but defends the speed by saying he thinks if could be full of townies who just wanted something to happen. Doesn't seem to think Abso is any less likely to be scum because of the speed.
737
Az remarks that the scum probably already have far more info about the Pantheons in the game than the town from which they could draw claims (unless they are all in the same Pantheon). Silicon says there's still no reason to throw out the names of more Pantheons. Kind of a minor issue.
764
Says he's not thrilled with Abso's analysis. Says the fact that part of his claim have been "confirmed" helps "a bit." (this would be Aurorasparrow saying he's also a God from the GlassWright Series). Doesn't unvote.
Asks Cyan if he has any reason for believing there will be vanilla mafia. Minor fishing?
(five days pass)
902
Been busy at work and needs to catch up. Promises content will follow. Says my "plan" (which was having people say if they are GlassWright God or not) might be a good idea, but not right now. Maybe in a few days.
929
Reminds DYH about his joke vote for loran after DYH posts his list of all voting in the game so far.
981
Wishy-washy on AH. Doesn't see anything to make him think he's scum. Doesn't see anything to make him think he's town either. Take a dig at Passdog (who he has not so much as mentioned before). Goes back to voting Abso.
992
Passdog calls him on his dig. He states that he does think Passdog is "most likely" scum. For no reasons. Just a "gut" feeling.
Agrees with me that 1000 post days are too long.
Scummy.
995
More arguing with Passdog who is trying to press him to give an opinion on something.
1048
Now he's pressed a bit by DYH. DYH wants to know when he became suspicious of Passdog (whom he had never mentioned before). Silicon says it started around Post #743. Does not give any further explanation.
DYH asks why Passdog had not hit his scummy list before, and Silicon counters by saying DYH doesn't know when Passdog hit his scummy list because he never posted his scummy list. k.
DYH points out Cyan's confirmation of Abso as vanilla as a reason why many people may have gotten off the wagon. Silicon says he still surprised people got off as quickly as they did.
(three days pass)
1215
Jumps on the MD wagon. Says with all his "horrible" posts throughout the "entire day" he just can't believe him.
He hasn't said anything about MD for the entire day since the time he said he thought MD was newb town.
(day ends)
1289
Expresses dismay at all the Night kills. Asks if anyone knows why there were so many?
As if anyone would be answering that question.
1292
Tells Mosschop that you can tell the deceased were all town by looking at the first post.
1341
Bluesoul has come out as Cop (not Tracker). Silicon says this is an "interesting" turn of events and asks Bluesoul who he targeted Night 0.
Doesn't say specifically what he thinks is "interesting." Still hasn't expressed an opinion about anyone living.
(4 days pass)
1457
Again calls developments "interesting." Agrees the Labelas should come out if Tregit's claim is true. Says he is "Not Greek" I don't immediately see the reason for that claim. I'm assuming someone was asking for it, or suggesting that it might be a good thing to do, but I don't remember who or why.
More agreeing with everyone else. And lack of opinion on anyone specifically.
1486
Wonders why people are claiming "Not Labelas." A town Labelas would come out on their own. This is probably correct reasoning. Also, as it turns out, completely irrelevant to anything since Tregit was making it all up.
1563
again says something is "interesting." This time it's Tregit's admission of Culthood. Wonders if one of the night-kills might have come from the Cult. Which is something he might legitimately wonder even if he were mafia.
1626
More argeeing with everyone. Agrees with me Tregit ought to claim his original ability. Agrees with (someone) that kops ought to full claim too.
Still hasn't expressed a direct opinion about anyone the whole game day.
(5 days pass)
1728
Now gives his opinion on the "analysts brawl" between Az and myself. His opinion is....he can see some valid points on both sides but doesn't completely agree with either. Awesome.
Asks a mostly irrelevant question about the way Cults work (would a recruited mafia still count as a mafia for determining when the mafia win).
Says Tregit could still be a targeting neutral role of some kind (if not a killing role). Goes off to "think" some more.
(6 days pass)
1821
Comes back defending my question to kops (which was how does he feel about Chuckles claim considering his own role and the assumption that there would be a standard Doc in the game)
(4 days pass)
1911
His head wants to explode. Now we have both Cultists. INTERESTING (you keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.)
Doesn't "think" he agrees with people wanting to lynch kops, but that might change with a re-read.
...
In conclusion:
Silicon is scum.
Unvote;
Vote: Silicon
I R tired. Any detailed analysis will have to wait. But he's scum.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Like people you aren't scum buddies with?
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I had given my own opinions on several players. Unfortunately for me, my opinions had already been voiced by others in the game. I can't explain a reason for it other than I don't get too many chances to respond to things first. A lot of times I'll go off to work (or to bed), come back and some event has occured and been responded to by most everyone else.
I was not any less suspicious of Abso at that point, but before I unvoted he was two or three votes from being lynched (mosschop had counted 12 people voting him, but looking back I can only find 11). At that point I felt there was more to gain by talking a bit more, and leaving him at eleven or twelve votes was not comfortable to me.
I didn't unvote here because I had no vote on anyone at the time. Just making sure your notes are correct here.
Alright, why are people still acting surprised that I "never mentioned" Passdog as looking scummy before? The post I mentioned that I thought he was scummy in was the first post I made after he started giving me large scum vibes. Yes I had posted after what I told dyh first gave me some scummy vibes, but the whole case against AH which came in post 772 is what started giving me really strong vibes (looking back I never mentioned this, though I could have sworn I had). I never like it when people replace in a game and immediately attack someone, just seems extremely scummy to me.
So you attack me for not forming any opinions of my own, and for not stating the one of same opinions as everyone else?
I asked if anyone had any ideas as to why there were so many, not if they knew why. I was puzzled at the fourth kill really - figuring mafia, sk, and vig killings. Which multiple people expressed ideas as to why there was a fourth kill.
I don't understand why you think I don't know what interesting means. It's true, I tend to use it a lot (as evidenced by your pbpa), but I say that when stuff perks my interest. I don't always specifically state what was interesting obviously, but that doesn't mean there was nothing interesting.
Fezzini: Inconceivable!
Inigo: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
That's where he's coming from, Silicon.
I can see some of Axel's points: beyond the agregious lurking, there have been few places where Silicon has actually put his thoughts out there. To AH's point- after what happened in Star Trek mafia, I think this would likely be an "easy" lynch to swing (pun intended), and I wonder if it isn't Axelrod taking advantage of that in the somewhat precarious position of being under Azrael's eye. Regardless, the content should pick up if he is a townie, we could certainly use some additional insight.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
But kops said he wasn't a straight doc, huh mommy? Could kops clarify on this? I think it might help.
[The Family]
So you want me to say "I am a straight doc" or "I am not a straight doc". Is that correct? If this is the case, I am willing to do this if a couple more people agree that I should (also, before I do, you yourself need to clarify that this is indeed what you want me to do).
Axelrod (1)- Abandon Hope
Azrael (1)- Azrael
Jobie (3)- kops723, arimnaes, DYH
kops723 (4)- carrion pigeons, Treigit, RafaelK, Machin Shin
silicon (1)- Axelrod
Treigit (1)- Crop Circles
Not Voting (11)- krashbot, Jobie, Mosschop, bluesoul, MMoD, Kenji, silicon, aurorasparrow, Puzzle, Chucklez, Xyre
@Jobie- First post updated.
No, no it doesn't. You're making a statement here without backing it up. kops' signal isn't related to "Lene, God of Humility", which the cultists say is their cult leader. kops' signal showed he probably didn't really know what he was signalling to.
kops has claimed to be the town doctor, and yet he was signalling something where he didn't know what it was. I mean, either he's misleading a townie who's signalling for a good reason or he's drawn the attention of a scum signalling for an evil reason. If he thinks the town should know about this signal, he could speak up, but he just wanted himself to know about the signal. Coupled with the manner of his claim (claiming a fake subtitle, then back-pedalling on the subtitle when caught out and claiming doc) this is just not townie behaviour. And we have two claimed cultists and made it clear we won't lynch non-leader cultists, so he's not an ordinary cultist or he would have tried that by now. He's cult leader or other scum. QED.
I see what you did there.
But trying to twist this into "it must be straight reversion OR a death cult" is just more of your garbage.
There's a lot of stuff out there, including stuff I speculated on earlier (ie. cultists stay cult, but without a recruiting. Or even reversion but the recruits stay without their old powers. Or whatever else our mod could dream up.)
Creating a false dichotomy to try and force your view through. I am very disappointed in you.
Total BS, and you know it. It's outlined above anyway, in case you have trouble finding it again, but it's not the first time I (and others) have said this stuff.
Yes, you do. Trying to out-guess the mod is rarely smart, and you know this, and you say this to other people. I know you were second-guessing the mod (that's why I called you out on it, duh). I am not second-guessing the mod. I am pointing out that for you to assume that it's a straight reversion cult (as all your numbers games did) is not smart because you don't know if that's the sort of cult it is.
It's *amazing* (ie. not amazing) how you didn't seek to follow up on your arguments that forcing a suspected cult leader to claim didn't help the town.
There's entirely too many people in this game not voting. Take a stand, people.
Since we remembered how often cornered scum go the doc claim to draw out the real doc?
Besides, same argument (and potentially the same response, come to that) apply to Chucklez.
Ah thanks for clearing that up, it's been quite a while since I've seen that movie.
Hmm...
Well my suspicions currently are (in no particular order)
Jobie - his play at the end of day 1 was questionable, his play today was a bit better, however still questionable.
Az & Axel - their argument today has been large and distracting, overall I feel Az has looked more scummy for the argument.
AH has also given me some weird vibes lately... I should really get around to reread Passdog's case on him...
I should hopefully give more input tomorrow morning.
1. Lurker. We know this. To some extant it's a Silicon thing to lurk, but this is pretty bad. Especially the large gaps in recent days. The last three posts coming over a period of more than two weeks. There are large gaps in posting during Day 1 as well. Lurking w/o excuse = scummy. Multiple gaps in posting of 4, 5, and more days = no excuse.
2. Non-committal. Day 1 he says he feels MD is newb town (which he's going to have a better read on if he's mafia, right?) but can't explain why he feels that way. Of course this feeling doesn't stop him from waggoning MD to death at the end of the day, while criticizing his "horrible" posting, which he has not himself mentioned once.
He also walked the middle road re: Absolutionis. Voted him for the reason "he can get behind this." Get behind what, pray tell? Then hides behind Puzzle's questions. Then "unvotes" like a good cautious townie, except he makes sure to tell everyone he doesn't think Abso. is any less likely to be scum. Is then wishy-washy when portions of Abso's claim are supported.
Wishy-washy on Abandon Hope also. One wonders about the point of making a comment like (paraphrase) "I haven't seen anything to make me think he's scum, then again, I haven't seen anything to make me think he's town either."
The Passdog incident appears to be more of the same. He dropped his first little dig at Passdog without explanation. When pressed, he does say he thinks Passdog is "most likely" scum, but can give NO basis for this feeling beyond his "gut."
When asked to clarify when his "gut" started speaking to him about Passdog, he points to post #743, where Passdog did not vote AH, did not FOS AH, but said AH was giving him "weird" vibes (and took the time to say specifically what was giving him weird vibes, which Silicon constantly fails to do). Silicon, it seems, wants to criticize that "attack" (if you can call it an attack), but even in his criticism, he says "the post he [Passdog] quotes does have one instance of a questionable usage of 'we'" In other words, Passdog is making at least a partially legitimate point. Yet this is the post which apparently makes Silicon think Passdog is "most likely" to be scum? That's incredibly weak, but since he took that dig, he had to come up with something, didn't he?
Now he's saying that it was Passdog's more detailed attack on AH in post #772 which made him suspicious of Passdog. He has to admit, however, that he never said anything of the sort at the time. What he said (in post #992,) was that he didn't know why he thought Passdog was scum. It was just a "gut" feeling.
In fact, Silicon said nothing else about Passdog being scummy the whole rest of the game day. And Passdog helpfully died that night.
What's his opinion on Az vs. me? The rumble in the jungle? he thrilla in Manilla? Right down the middle, baby. He can see valid points on both sides, but doesn't agree completely with either. And he doesn't even specify what points he agrees with or disagrees with. He just says it in a vague kind of way, then moves on to talk about something else. How helpful.
No votes for anyone Day 2. Has not even stated he finds anyone particularly suspicious for the entire game day.
3. Aloof. This is where the whole "interesting" point comes in. What is he saying with that? Or trying to say? Well, it sounds like he's taking it all in. He's analyzing the situation. He's thinking about the possibilities. Which would be great if he was actually doing any of those things. His posted thoughts, however, display no such insight nor analysis. He neither makes nor refutes any of the arguments of the moment. He observes. Aloof. And occasionally remarks on how "interesting" it all is to make us think he's paying attention.
4. Tons of agreement with other people. Lots of posts saying I want X to answer Y's question. I agree with X. This is kind of Buddy-buddy, in addition to being non-committal and is a great way to not post any actual content.
5. Meta-Game argument: This one comes from my personal perspective. If I assume Az is townie, then I wonder what the mafia must think of his (sorely misguided) attack on me. I'm thinking that, overall, they must be happy with it, two prominant posters going back and forth and no mafia being in the middle of it. If Az were successful in getting me lynched, great for the mafia. Another potentially dangerous townie down, plus, Azrael's credibility is shot.
For that very reason though, they have to be cautious. They don't want to whole-heartedly support Az in this (misguided) attack on me, lest their own credibility end up shot at the same time. They also don't want to defend me too strenuously - they want me lynched. Plus, how could they justify defending me too much? How could they be so sure I'm townie? So I imagine most mafia walking a middle line. Perhaps expressing agreement with a point here or there, perhaps not commenting much at all in an effort to stay out of it. Less likely to throw their full support behind one side or the other.
Why look, it's Silicon. Smack dead in the middle. He has made a grand total of 1 post commenting on the entire Az/Axel debate, to say he sees points on both sides. Other than that, he's lurking like Jack the Ripper to see how it all plays out.
EWP: I see Silicon has just posted his current feelings. How helpful. Still has not managed to specify what "play" in particular any player he listed has made which makes then suspicious.
And now he wants to re-read Passdog's case on AH. Cute.
I'm not sure what to say about him coming down on my side of the Az/Axel debate. I wonder, has my attack on him increased my credibility?
Wait a second.
He agreed with you about something?
He has to be scum!
FOS Silicon.
Oddly enough, that's almost exactly the way my suspicions have been gravitating towards. Except a little more doubt about Chucklez, and a slight increase on my normal level of wariness towards Silicon. In some ways, he's always an easy, low-volume mark as townie, but the style is always dangerous to let pass as scum. *shrugs*
I'll be back again tomorrow, after a little more rest.
Vote Azrael.
ROOTK mafia? You didn't know about cpe, CC got vigged immediately after the first lynch before defending him ever came up, and then the only mafia left were you and me. I never needed defending until the very end when you were dead, so there was no need to be cautious about defending me.
The thing I took away from your performance in ROOTK mafia is that you're a good teammate to bounce ideas off but you need to be shielded because you draw fire being overly pushy (and your scumlogic is picked up more easily because it's uncharacteristic, which is what I'm picking up here, just as I did in random 1 right before someone vigged you). You were a top suspect from day 2 onwards in ROOTK. Some of my best work in that game was keeping the town off you without being called on it.
All I can do about this is apologize for this. Obvious I have lurked quite a bit this game and I can't change what has passed. Most of the lurking in this game has actually been a result of work running me ragged coupled with the thread growing like crazy while I'm not there, causing me to have to spend what little time I have trying to catch up).
As I mentioned in response to your pbpa, I had seen no reason to tell everyone else that MD was making horrible plays when everyone else had already said so.
I could get behind a wagon on Abso because at the point the game was beginning to stagnate, and I felt a wagon on someone new would help shake up the day.
At the time (post 992) I didn't know why I had Passdog as scum. When asked after that dig, I went and looked up what made me first start feeling like he was scum. When DYH asked me where my suspicions first started, I gave the spot where he first struck my scumdar. I'm unsure of why I did not mention the next post of Passdogs.
I don't know why I did not mention which points I agreed with, if you'd like I'll go back and post which points I agree with. I would right now, however I don't remember off the top of my head and I am pressed for time, so I can't go back and look currently.
Again about all I can do here is apologize for saying "interesting" and not expounding on them. I will do my best to break this habit.
I apologize again.
Hmm... I can definately see how it can be viewed like that. I was not waiting to see how it played out however, I mostly just skimmed over the later posts really, as it was far too much of a distraction.
I really gotta stop assuming people can read my mind I guess
As far as Jobie goes, his 'hammer' near the end of day one never sat well with me.
AH has made several posts recently that have given me the wrong feeling.
*sigh* No, I was already feeling that before your attack on me. Obviously I can't expect you to fully believe that, as I have never before mentioned it before in thread.
I believe you are knowingly taking this statement out of context. The two of us were among the first to realize that it was an obsolete reason, and we even discussed it one post.
This is an attempt to win logic points at the expense of the truth.
If he only wanted himself to know about the signal, why post instead of taking a note? For whatever reason, he wanted a public record that he'd seen it and had not immediately exposed it. Does that do much good as town? Likely not. Does it do much good as mafia either? Hardly. It is not a tell, for or against, unless you can show that it benefits him as mafia.
The manner of his claim is also consistent with a townie attempting to shield a power role from exposure under false pretenses (which you played a role in supporting, without creating a detailed case that he was mafia).
Whether he's scum or town, the rationale that forced him to claim; the suspicions of him as cult, were faulty.
And I wonder why you are still supporting the hypothesis that he could be a cult leader, unless you happen to believe our claimed cultists are lying.
Ad hominem attack, and a glaring misrepresentation.
My quote was this:
I addressed the possibility of a non-reversion, non-death cult in several earlier posts: it is the rarest form of cult, it strands the remainder without a win condition, and generally causes the game to warp and disintegrate as the survivors are left with no viable chance of winning but retain their ability to vote and influence others' chances, which tends to favor the mafia over the town by turning a large block of voters into permanent neutrals.
Second, I allowed for the possibility of other potential modifications other than your typical straight reversion cult.
Thirdly and most importantly, you're attempting to attack me on wording alone, while failing to address the actual argument, which you are at a disadvantage to win. A death cult is not a credible option in this game. If you still believe it is, then justify it, or concede that point. If you're town, don't waste time trying to attack my credibility instead of engaging my argument.
The last sentence is another cheap debating tactic, designed to portray you as an authority figure frowning upon a misguided child. Substanceless rhetorical trickery.
Yes, he's been attacked for his falsely-extracted claim a number of times already. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actually examining his voting and behavioral stances, some actual hard research.
Right now, you have superficial case based entirely on claim evidence, which doesn't indicate whether he was townie trying to preserve a power role, or scum trying to be evasive. You'll need more than that.
Here's the problem, Raf. You're equating analyzing the likelihood of a claim based on game balance with "outguessing the mod", which usually means speculating on the setup without evidence.
But game balance is something we can observe, predict, and draw conclusions on given enough data.
The data we need to draw conclusions on the likelihood of a death cult, we already have. The number of players alive, the expectation that we can expect at least two kills each night, and the reality that a death cult, a more powerful anti-town force than a second SK would be, is something that would make victory for the town almost impossible.
There are other possibilities which we cannot completely eliminate based on the evidence at hand, but a death cult is completely preposterous, and trying to use it as a rationale to push for the immediate dispatching of the cult leader is a mafia tell.
I stand by that argument. As you very well know, it's not something either of us can win on until we know his actual identity.
But if he was a cult leader, and we accept that eliminating the cult today is not in our best interests, it was a scum tell. And obviously it's also a scum tell if he is townie.
I'm not talking about observed behavior, I'm referring to my statements during and after the game, which you read, in which I revealed that my philosophy as mafia is never to tie myself too closely to my compatriots.
Point stands. FOS Rafaelk, Vote Azrael.
As far as I can tell, the only reason we haven't lynched kops yet is not because you're arguing that he isn't a good lynch, but because you continuously throw up distractions that keep us from productively ending the day.
I'm going to ask that if you insist that a death cult is preposterous, then you also assume that a reversion cult is, as well. You and Raf have gone to enough lengths to point out just how unbalanced both are that it is not helpful to speculate on those as possibilities any more.
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A couple things:
On point 3, re: Jobie, I'm getting the feeling about him that I had about Loran in Star Trek mafia. People who continually spew potential scum tells can't continue to be given a pass on that being their normal behavior. Think about the massive change in outcome lynching Loran (SK) day 2 could have provided in that game. I had that same feeling about Treigit day one, here. That certainly would've been a far better alternative than the newbie lynch.
I'm inclined to agree with you on point 4. PBPAs that examing every single post, particularly in a thread of this length, become tedious not only to write, but to read. However, doing an incomplete PBPA (only using select posts) tends to draw fire for the "why didn't you include post X where I look townie, yadda yadda". Simply summing up the case into a general profile probably leads to more folks doing their own homework, additional conversation, and is far less painful to read.
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As far as I can tell, I'm way ahead of you on that.
Here was as close as I came to doing what you accused me of in my last post:
But that post is exactly the kind of qualified statement that you're requesting. It's an if/then statement, not a blanket condemnation.
Distractions? CP, the case against Kops is built entirely on his claim behavior, and those attacking him have not yet demonstrated that his behavior is inconsistent with a townie attempting to conceal a power role.
Until they can come up with something better than that, I am going to continue to "distract" the town from lynching a claimed doctor on a slipshod, superficial case.
I don't think he's done a very convincing job at all of pointing out that a reversion cult is preposterous, actually. It's quite possible to either leave it as a very weak anti-town force, or to modify it slightly to accomadate for the risk of back-stabbing.
Vote Azrael.
Raf is a very funny man!
I POINTED OUT THAT KOPS HAD NOT BEEN COUNTERCLAIMED AS DOC, AND HE GIVES ME THIS!? :xd:
It doesn't change the fact that kops hasn't been counterclaimed at all! Try answering the question, silly! We've only had 2 people die who could have been the real doc. Two! What are the odds that they were the doc? No, I'm confident it is kops.
MOMMY SAYS THAT IS FUNNY!
Chuckie-scum claimed a faith healer, which is veryveryvery unlikely to get counterclaimed. This is why kops should tell us exactly what he is! So we can verify!
FORSOOTH!
Unvote, Vote Raf
[The Family]
Well, to start off, I don't even really have any idea what you were trying to say with that particular statement. Could you clarify?
I apologize if I'm using impressions and not explicitly stated facts to form my opinion here, but I get the distinct feeling that the main basis for your suspicion against both Axel and Raf are that they believe that the cult is something the town needs to deal with.
I know you'll disagree with this, and you can obviously point out a few places where you've made cases against them that involved points other than their point of view on the cult, but I just don't see that you actually have much of a case if you don't assume that lynching the cult is A Bad Thing. You continue to press them, despite this, using their stances on the cult situation as points against them. I see this as assuming the conclusion, because no one honestly knows for sure whether lynching the cult is a pro-town play or not.
You know, claim behavior is pretty strong evidence most of the time. Let's look at his.
First, he subclaims Arvoreen. By now, we all know that Arvoreen is a God of War. When pressed to claim, he claims Lawful Good God of War and Vigilance. (One wonders what his motivation for embellishing his rolename could be.) When pressed further, he claims that he didn't actually have the "Lawful Good" part, but he definitely did have the "War and Vigilance" part. This eliminates any chance that he's merely trying to explain who is God is, but is actually lying about his rolename, once he is not believed and comes out as, apparently not God of War or God of Vigilance, but God of some unknown thing that he won't admit to. It's only at this point that he claims to be the doc.
Now, I'll grant that if kops is Arvoreen, but isn't the god of either of the things he brought up, then he is almost certainly God of Protection, but that really isn't helpful at this point because it assumes that kops is town and telling the truth from the getgo, when there is every reason to believe otherwise. If he were merely trying not to say God of Protection, why did he breadcrumb his role in the first place? Why did he falseclaim as God of War and Vigilance, rather than just not say? Why did he try to embellish his role to make himself sound better (this was apparently his only motivation) by adding the Lawful Good touch? Why did he refuse to admit to his real rolename even after he claimed doc?
All these things are very easily explicable if he's scum, but make no sense at all if he isn't.
In any case, you're making an argument that kops is probably really the doctor, when we have two people claiming to be members of a cult that kops is in position to be the head of. I don't even see how the contention can be made that kops is anything less than a recruit, let alone actually town.
You act as if D_M doesn't want the cult to have a serious chance of winning. The major problem with a death cult, as you pointed out, was that once the CL is gone, the cult is gone, even if they were in position to win easily. The major problem with a reversion cult is exactly the same thing, except that recruits are more likely to backstab that way. Both are thoroughly preposterous. The question of who benefits once the cult dies is completely not an issue: giving the town an enormous advantage (with the death of a reversion cult) is no more likely to be balanced than giving the mafia an enormous advantage (with the death of a death cult). The question is what is to be done to make the cult have a serious chance at winning, and I think the obvious answer is to leave the cultists alive but still cult.
Yes, you've argued that "this strands the cultists with no WC," but that isn't strictly true. For all practical purposes, all such a cult would have to do to win would be to convince the town to let some of them live, which would patently not be very hard. This way, they're a threat to the town because the town can't win while any of them are alive, they're a threat to the mafia because they act as something similar to a continuously growing mason group, and they have a serious chance of winning because one kill doesn't completely undo them.
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I was saying that it's possible that what they've been doing is a scum tell.
At this point, I'm more focused on them for the pressure on Kops, my notes on them from day one, and their history of evasion/deflection. And it's worth noting that the pressure from them has continued, despite the weakening of the cult charge against him.
I wouldn't put it that way. There's a difference of opinion amongst the town. One group, comprised of myself, Cropcircles, Puzzle, and Aurorasparrow think it's bad play. Yourself, Axelrod, and Rafaelk believe otherwise. And others have joined in the fray from time to time.
Oh, I agree. But if you ignore the rest of the evidence, you're putting yourself at the mercy of the mod, and of luck.
Because the nature of his abilities remains ambiguous, if he's described merely as a God of War and Vigilance.
Refusing to claim his name at all would have been unlikely to fly, given the pressure brought upon him.
Also, why would he false-claim God of War and vigilance as scum, then suddenly switch his title to something else? Why not simply go ahead with the doc-claim as is, without admitting to a lie?
He doesn't want to die?
Why would he do so as scum, either?
I think a number of these things are equally explicable as townie, and some of them don't have any rationale explanation whether he's town or scum.
Also, lynching someone because you don't have an easy explanation for events is often a grave mistake. Take the Armlx lynch in SC, for example.
So your position is that Treigit and Mosschops are lying to protect him?
Ok, there's a lot of things to cover in this paragraph.
Yes, a reversion cult has a long shot of winning. But so does a SK. The difference is, a reversion cult doesn't interfere with anyone else's chances of winning the game if it's destroyed. It's a difficult role to succeed with, but it adds flavor to the game without disrupting balance. It's no more preposterous than a single SK in a normal game.
Second, the town doesn't gain any advantage from the destruction of a reversion cult. It simply regains parity.
Whereas the death cult truly does hurt the town, irrevocably.
Now, if DM was serious about giving the cult a chance of winning, he could go with the non-reversion plan. But that's assuming that DM is valuing giving the cult leader a better chance to win more than he's valuing the overall health of the game. (And it's assuming that he didn't like his previous cult setup, and looked up the most obscure version of a cult to replace it).
And that's exactly why they're screwed: they're a threat to both groups, but their only power is their ability to vote. The town can trump that with greater numbers, and the mafia can trump that with their kill.
Vote Azrael.
is directed at Az and not me. Regardless, I will try to answer it as best I can but I doubt most of the answers will satisfy you.
Again, I cite SftD where not breadcrumbing essentially got me killed. In this game with so many more available roles, I cede that it was not anywhere near as likely the same issue came up, experience from the immediate past clouded my vision.
I believe I mentioned this before, but in hindsite, that's one hell of a good question.
Well, my thought process at the time was that God of War can very easily be mafia, so I thought I would preemptively clear that up by adding the lawful good bit.
You are correct, it's protection. I will have to go back and look at my post from the time, but I don't actually remember specifically avoiding claiming protection. It may have been because I simply forgot in lieu of the semi-ability claim, since at that point a mere subtitle didn't seem to important.
Finally, clarification on my ability:
I am a straight doc, with one twist. This twist may well become apparent to the town, but until it does, I'm not going to say what it is, though it is important that I mention that it exists.
Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
Unvote, Vote Silicon
For the record, my "pressure" on kops this game day has consisted of asking him for his claim, after he was caught signaling to Tregit, and then after he made a show of delaying while he asked the Mod for some "clarification" about his role, and then, of course, after his lying about it.
You will note (or you won't), that I am currently advocating for the lynch of someone else, so please don't insinuate that I'm "pressuring" kops right now as though I want him lynched/vigged.
If he's town, however, he's made at least 2 bondheaded plays, including signaling to Tregit for no reason and lying about his subtitle--and lying by calling himself God of "War and Vigilance" of all things.
You will also recall (or you won't), that I have not ever been advocating for the lynch of a claimed Cultist as a preferred play, but as an acceptable play in the absence of better alternatives.
You will recall (or you won't), that part of my continued pressure on Tregit (not kops) was due to my continuing uncertainly as to whether or not this Cult he claimed he was a part of actually existed at all.
The fact that Mosschop has now come out fairly well establishes the presence of a Cult. I'm satisfied in that regard, though I would not go so far as to blindly accept their description of how said Cult works. But nevertheless, it removes one piece of the reason I was advocating for Tregit to be lynched. And look, I'm voting someone else.
Frankly, the kops as Cult Leader angle has never appealed to me all that much. (1) it entirely depends on the word "Time" having some relevance to the Cult, which Mosschop is disputing. Certainly Mosschop could be putting his head on the block to try and save his Leader (or could be the Leader), but I put those farther down my list of likely possibilities for this situation. (2) It seems backwards to me anyway. Why would the recruit need to signal to his leader? Why would the leader signal back? If kops is Cult--and the signal had anything to do with anything--it can't be a simple reversion Cult, or whichever of Tregit or kops was not the leader should have ratted the other out a long time ago.
I mean, Tregit could still be the Leader, and the Cult could still have something to do with "Time", but Mosschop's play then makes no sense-- unless his own life is somehow threatened should we lynch Tregit.
So I still have many questions about the Cult, but I'm not doubting that it exists anymore. And with a good target in Silicon, I'm happy to have my vote there.
I need to review the thread, and possibly (shudder) reread before I make up my mind.
I don't think lynching a claimed, uncountered doctor is a viable option in our current position, regardless of how badly he may have played his claim. Chucklez claim does not instill a similar confidence in me, since it's considerably less useful to the town if it's true, and much more difficult to disprove if it's false.
On the other hand, he has promised content soon, and silicon and Jobie are not looking great to me right now.
There will likely be a massive information dump post coming up from me in a few days, after I reread. Stay tuned.
Ah. Okay. Here I was thinking you were saying it WAS a scum tell. Sure.
Weakening huh? How? If the case against kops-as-cult is weakening, I'm off it instantly, but I must not have noticed where that happened.
Erm, I was referencing your attack on Axel and Raf being based on your beliefs about the cult. Could you clarify what this has to do with that?
Is there some evidence that suggests he's town that I'm missing?
Again, huh?
If he were merely trying not to say God of Protection, why did he breadcrumb his role in the first place?
Because the nature of his abilities remains ambiguous, if he's described merely as a God of War and Vigilance.
Is there some connection between my question and your answer that I'm not seeing?
Not the issue: he wasn't afraid to claim Arvoreen.
If he were town, I could maybe believe this kind of behavior. As scum, it seems much more likely that he would try to explain away every issue that gets brought up however he can.
Claiming War and Vigilance suggests that he 1) looked up the role on the internet, rather than saw it in his PM, and 2) deliberately chose a role that could claim doc without explicitly saying so. Both these things seem scummy to me, somehow.
Okay, sure. On the other hand, it looks to me like he was trying to draw attention to the excellent falseclaim he concocted.
I don't know, but nevertheless, it suggests deception of some kind.
I was quite happy with the armlx lynch, thank you very much.
Everything I see points to kops attempting to deceive somebody, somehow. The points I can't explain as scum seem to be in any case clearly deceptive. It really isn't the same.
I really think I'm missing something. What the heck are you talking about?
A reversion cult has a much worse chance of winning than an SK, due to the likelihood of backstabbers. And sure, the town doesn't gain any advantage from the creation of a mason group of potentially enormous size. Unless you consider masons to be pro-town, maybe. Then, yeah, they do.
I thought Raf made this point clear.
The overall health of the game is not going to be benefitted by a rversion cult more than a non-reversion cult. As to whether it's obscure or not, I'll just say that I tend to doubt that D_M would put two identical roles into his two games, considering how much effort he puts into making original roles.
But if they can get to four or five players, they may very well be able to force both the town and the mafia to choose between letting the other win, or the cult. That's a good position to be in.
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Mod, is there a replacement lined up for bluesoul?
ObCheapShot: I suppose that would be a result of the fiasco that resulted from tying everyone together in random 1?
To make an actual point, I'm aware of what you said, but it's a very WIFOM point. People say lots of stuff about how they act as town or as mafia, then march off and do the opposite.
I'll follow up the rest of your post later if need be. For now, obviously I disagree with you on stuff (except that I agree I go for cheap debating points and rhetoric etc all the time, but so do you and so do most other people here, so what? It's fun). And I note that you've backpedalled on saying that there's never been a case made for kops as mafia into saying there's no case made based on "actual hard research". And your definition of that includes behavioural stances, most of the stuff against him IS behavioural (most notably in the reasons for his signalling and in the manner of his deceiving false claim, and more recently in the way he's waving his claimed power role as a weapon rather than a shield).
There's a number of posts I haven't even read yet after this post of yours, so I'll read those and then probably follow this all up tomorrow.
I can't let this go until tomorrow. You're saying that a full doc should come out to counterclaim kops if they exist? Even if kops was claiming full normal doc (which he has been hedging on), I wouldn't normally advise a doc to come out to counterclaim someone under as much suspicion as kops, not on day 2.
But kops (who hasn't said what kind of doc he is) is very likely to get counterclaimed immediately! Right!
So just a minute, the guy you're strenuously pushing as the town doc, who must be the town doc because no-one's counterclaimed him, and you want him to spill more information?
It makes sense for me (with my view of kops) to push for that, but it doesn't make sense for you.
I think that all these big PBPA's should stop. Right now. It's focusing too much on one person's actions, leaving him in the spotlight while most other players are in the background.
If you're talking about people having conversations that involve answering more than one point at a time, then those aren't going to stop. They are one of the few things that allow analysts like Az to communicate their points at all and still make sense.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
I remember a point someone made, I think it was Az, and said that in the case of a non-reversion, non-death cult, the town could race them with numbers, and the mafia could race them with NK's. How exactly does anyone race the cult without knowing who they are? The cult would be just like another mafia without a nightkill (it makes more sense that in a non-reversion cult the cultists know who each other are).
All of Kops' D1
147
(Dang, can't hyper link and compose this right now, sorry):
147(see above)
193
332
335
I still think Treigit looks somewhat scummy, but there is more reason to belive that he is town than scum for me. You, on the other hand, are making non-existant cases against me, then saying you were wrong... then changing your mind again and saying you weren't wrong, with absolutely no reasons cited as to why you weren't wrong. You are contradicting yourself here and it really looks like you're just trying to keep attention on me before people change their minds and decide I don't look scummy anymore... Of course I can't vote you now or I'd be being a hypocrite, but otherwise I probably would.
478
525
1) I picked up his breadcrumbs and even though the god he sub-claimed (at least the one I think he subclaimed) is likely in the game and doesn't sound too scummy, I now realize that this really shouldn't be any deciding factor on wether or not I think he's scummy.
2) His play is extremely similar to mine when I'm town. He has a bunch of not well thought out posts that look scummy and he defends them by saying that whoever called him on it is probably right and that h now realizes he acted scummy which is a lot like what I do. Of course, this reason isn't very good either.
So I've decided I'm not so sure that I'm reading Treigit as town anymore but I do think I'd rather
vote leilani
1099
I'm not sure ATM if he referred to me in others by other monikers or implication, but those look quite a bit like distancing/fence sitting to me, and are less defnsible from a town perspective. Also, who thought Cronos was "likely in the game"