So we do know what bluesoul's role is. However, his role in no way makes me think he isn't scum.... I'd be alright with a Machin Shin lynch, though I'm still convinced bluesoul is the better target on ability/overall scumminess/refusal to play.
If we accept Twomz's result, then Bluesoul has an ability that belongs purely on a townie, correct?
I agree with what comes from this line, but I'm just wondering about your logic behind this... I could see this on a mafioso as well. Maybe SK, but don't they just normally have the kill ability?
If we accept Twomz's result, then Bluesoul has an ability that belongs purely on a townie, correct?
Huh? How is this ability purely townie? He has a one-shot roleblock on somebody who targets him. That's assuming Twomz is not scum trying to clear him, of course. Now don't you think that if Bluesoul was scum, he would know the alignment of somebody who targets him? I just keep coming back to the fact that he claimed, for almost no reason, to have an ability that is useless after he has claimed it, except to prevent himself from being investigated with that whole "no townies target me and we'll lynch anybody that does" thing.
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What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Huh? How is this ability purely townie? He has a one-shot roleblock on somebody who targets him. That's assuming Twomz is not scum trying to clear him, of course. Now don't you think that if Bluesoul was scum, he would know the alignment of somebody who targets him? I just keep coming back to the fact that he claimed, for almost no reason, to have an ability that is useless after he has claimed it, except to prevent himself from being investigated with that whole "no townies target me and we'll lynch anybody that does" thing.
I believe he verifies their identity, not their alignment.
Therefore, it's a protective/information role, the kind of thing you expect to see on townies more often than mafia.
Alternately, you could interpret it as a type of godfather ability, that allows the mafia to identify targeting roles, and block cop investigations. But when you compare mafia abilities to townie abilities, generally mafia abilities are a little vamped up in order to compensate for being outnumbered. So you'd expect them to be able to block at least two or three times, if it was a mafia godfather role. There's a much wider range of roles that mafia have to be afraid of, compared to townies.
However, townies typically have relatively less to fear from being targeted. They would only need to use that ability if they were being targeted by someone they suspected as mafia. Thus, one use would be the amount well-suited to a townie application of the ability.
I agree that more likely than not, bluesoul's ability belongs on a townie. I get that he is not one of the more prominent and experienced players here and as such might have been a little flustered to say the least at Puzzle's scrutiny (I know I was when I started). When I read over his posts they seem to scream frustrated townie than cornered scum. This doesn't mean that he shouldn't be investigated as some point if a cop runs short of ideas on who to check (not directing the cop, but suggesting if the cop has no idea WHO to check.) The major point I see against bluesoul is that he screwed up a potential scum-catching role by claiming too early. Coming off of my accidental killing of the town vig, I can understand that happening.
From what I've seen Machin Shin has committed a few scum tells and has followed that up with what seems like a subliminal vanilla claim in a game where I highly doubt there are (m)any vanillas at all.
Between that and the number of people that are all for a bluesoul lynch, I would rather lynch Machin Shin today.
From what I've seen Machin Shin has committed a few scum tells and has followed that up with what seems like a subliminal vanilla claim in a game where I highly doubt there are (m)any vanillas at all.
I have done my best to address your concerns about my "scum tells." If you're not happy with some of my explanations/answers, could you point out the problems? As for the vanilla thing, I did no such thing at all, and I've already said such.
Quote from Machin Shin »
I have already explained that I feel like using my only tool, the vote, is what I'm supposed to do.
That is what I said, and taken in context, it clearly means what I meant it to mean. That is, I'm saying that since you rarely see roles that can do things during the day, the only tool available is a vote. I even said much the same thing once before, making sure to explain that. I felt I could leave that part off this time, but I guess not if people are going to purposely mis-interpret what I said.
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I don't really care about Bluesoul. I want the day to friggin end. People will talk and talk and talk, but no one knows anything yet. Not until some people get lynched and other people get killed. That's the name of the game.
Endless day ones drive me nuts.
That said, I didn't even realize Diggy wasa voting for Bluesoul, which means he's less likely to be mafia just for that reason.
unvote
At a certain point it's all just hot air. Unless everyone wants to claim now.
I believe either Az came to the same conclusion as me, or he actually read my post (which would be a miracle, because i've gotten the distinct impression over my mafia career that no one ever reads my posts :-\) Which is this...
Y'all are concentrating on the "block" part of Bluesouls ability, which basically makes him an untargetable townie... but, if he dies, he gets to "pass his fishbowl." Now, the only alignment i could see passing a fishbowl to another person is town. It's probably public, thus it couldn't possible be a mafia ability... and no neutral role would be set up to pass their ability to a town/mafiaso after they die. So, through basic logic, Bluesoul must be town.
I also agree that most all the people on the Bluesoul wagon are either frustrated w/ him, or are mafiasos that have figured out that they can't NK him so they're trying as hard as they can to get him lynched. I'd say that 2 or 3 of the strongest supporters of Bluesouls lynch are mafia, and want to get rid of an unknightkillable (and untargetable) townie.
@No Hope: Just because my play style is different from what you're used to doesn't mean i'm scum. If you have reasons besides crap logic (and the fact that i've been fishing and my posting style is always scummy) go ahead and post them so i can respond. The fact that you can't get a bandwagon going on me today is probably a good indicator that the case you have against me isn't very good, and i don't think you'll be able to get one going tomorrow either.
I am worried that half of the waggon on bluesoul have themselves been the target of pbpa's/thought to be scummy by a lot of people. Those people being Machin Shin, Diggy, Beaker and Holmes.
This is a very valid point, but I'm also not sure what to think of it with Holmes' unvote... other than and FOS: Holmes. My vote stands for now, but I'll consider this deeply.
Ok. Vote Holmes. I had this vibe about him since early game, and now post re-read its stronger. Hes being too pushy on wagons, going after weak targets on weak cases.
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The passing-the-fishbowl bit definitely makes bluesoul a bad lynch for today. That just plain wouldn't appear on an SK or a mafioso. I'm sticking with M_S.
I believe either Az came to the same conclusion as me, or he actually read my post (which would be a miracle, because i've gotten the distinct impression over my mafia career that no one ever reads my posts :-\) Which is this...
Y'all are concentrating on the "block" part of Bluesouls ability, which basically makes him an untargetable townie... but, if he dies, he gets to "pass his fishbowl." Now, the only alignment i could see passing a fishbowl to another person is town. It's probably public, thus it couldn't possible be a mafia ability... and no neutral role would be set up to pass their ability to a town/mafiaso after they die. So, through basic logic, Bluesoul must be town.
I also agree that most all the people on the Bluesoul wagon are either frustrated w/ him, or are mafiasos that have figured out that they can't NK him so they're trying as hard as they can to get him lynched. I'd say that 2 or 3 of the strongest supporters of Bluesouls lynch are mafia, and want to get rid of an unknightkillable (and untargetable) townie.
Good call, Twomz. I missed that the first time around.
Game-wise, because a mafia blocking an investigation, vigilante etc. nightchoice and knowing who it is would be an extremely overpowered role for a scum to have. Not only do they block an attempted whatever, they also know the name of someone with (more likely than not) a power role. Hooray! Oh, wait, that would be really bad for the town.
Flavor-wise, the character is an isolationist who has shunned all civilization, living hermit-like. Does this sound like a mafia, whose goal is to steal the heart of gold? Not to me. To me it sounds like a neutral whose win condition is to survive until the end of the game (which is reflected by a comment made by him saying that his goal is to survive). Personally, I'd rather lynch someone who could be scum than someone we know is neutral.
Honestly, as I've said before, I think lynching Bluesoul is a really really bad idea. He's a new player who got angry at all the people attacking him. So lay off him, and let's lynch Machin or Beaker.
Quote from armlx »
Ok. Vote Holmes. I had this vibe about him since early game, and now post re-read its stronger. Hes being too pushy on wagons, going after weak targets on weak cases.
Okay, this might be a rather long post, I don't know. First, I owe Puzzle an apology. I had already had kind of an aggravating morning but that's no excuse, I was out of line.
That said, if you believe in the Hornet's Nest Theory, which practices posting for emotion and seeing what kind of hornets come flying out, I think that a lot of people overextended just a bit regarding me, some of which are mafia.
I will explain my role once again, completely. I'm Wonko the Sane. I have a fishbowl full of wheat germ, and when someone targets me, I can choose to throw my wheat germ at them, causing them to get disgusted and leave. When I use this (one-shot) ability, I'll simply have a fishbowl, which I'll pass on to someone when I die.
After asking for role clarification from c_p, I learned that I am in fact on the town's side, my WC is that I win when all the scum are dead (it sounds obvious but he forgot both on the first PM), the ability is voluntary, I can use the ability during the day, and each person that receives the fishbowl will get one use, after which they'll have to pass it upon death and it'll refill. The use will differ from person to person; mine was a roleblock/prevention.
The roleblock may be good on an SK but the fact that I have to pass the bowl on upon death is clearly contradictory to an SK's goal.
I'd like to think I can still help the town but as it stands I feel like I'm just gonna get shouted down and get pissed off again.
I didn't know until now that the fishbowl refilled itself. I don't believe you mentioned that part earlier (then again perhaps I misread.) As far as I knew, all Kenji (to whom I assume it is still being given) was to get an empty bowl, the significance of which had yet to be determined. The idea of a reuseable roleblock is most certaily interesting.
This actually changes your role rather significantly-the allowance for the ability to be used over and over again seems very townie, very "good for everyone" sort of thing.
unvote Bluesoul.
Azrael, would you care to share your thoughts upon these leads you keep bringing up that are coming out of the woodwork as we speak, or are you refering to MS, Diggy, Beaker and their respective sins of the past?
For some reason, I completely missed the fact that he could pass on the fishbowl as a perfect reason as to why he isn't scum, Unvote. Though I'm curious what happens when he gives the bowl to a Mafioso...hmmm... (care to ask for us Blue?).
FOS: Armlx, Voting my Mason buddy, quid ita Armlx? (P.S. Latin is cool, but worthless)
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@PF, c_p said it won't always be a roleblock, and more specifically he said someone might get an info role, which I'm assuming will be a one-shot investigation.
@Jobie, I assume it'll work for them the same as it'll work for anyone else.
Azrael, would you care to share your thoughts upon these leads you keep bringing up that are coming out of the woodwork as we speak, or are you refering to MS, Diggy, Beaker and their respective sins of the past?
The leads are there for the taking, if anyone cares to look for them.
At the moment, I'm content simply to state that they're there. The latest two bandwagons are teeming with them.
@Az: Is there really an explanation needed? Just as a note, you're not explaining yourself either. *shrugs*
@Bluesoul: I think you're scum, but do you actually understand why claiming your role would've been bad, if you were town? And, if you are town, why what you did makes me think you're scum.
Avabob :
#128 : very insistant on the impossibility of 2-personality roles (and not being so thereof). Weak arguments as to why it would be impossible (Jack-of-all-trades ?). Probably a 2-personality role...
#134 : advises caution on Kenji.
#159 : defends himself, denies fishing (or at least willing to), finds Holmes suspicious (not saying why), wagons PF for his attack on BlueSoul.
1st: I'm not a 2-personality role
2nd: My argument was convoluted, but I think it still stands. There is no reason for 2-roles on anyone, because it could all be done with one role. It is simply not needed. However, it is possible that C_P still kept in double roles just to mess with us, but I doubt it.
3rd: My suspicion of Holmes was a hunch. Later, I did the pbpa to give myself actual reason and convince myself he was scum. Since then, he has claimed mason.
Quote from Puzzle »
Avabob :
#202 : explores how to make Eddy list the scums for us : waste of time, misdirecting from actually hunting scums, etc.
Note : however, CP's answer concerning his probability of telling the truth, in #207, is ... interesting. .
Second note : see CP's #212.
#205 : "I personally believe in Kenji's innocence but want to prove it to the infidels doubtful." : look-at-me-I'm-a-townie.
#276 :
1. attacks Holmes :
- #30 : "strong" (dude, if you think that's strong, wait for my pitbull to go for your balls) and justified ( ) attack on Twomz.
- #118-#121 : correct. Contradiction from Holmes, worth digging into.
- #150 : saying Holmes "seriously voted Azrael" on his lurker-vote is a misrepresentation to me.
- #234 : here, I agree with Holmes : bandwagons are tools to find scums. If you don't use them, you lose pressure, you reach deadlines and it's easier for scums to slip through nets. This point is badly founded but this may be due to newbieness as well as scumminess.
2. points at PF (like so many others with so little actual justification...), although doesn't think him scum.
#202: I just thought that that flavor had very interesting possibilities, one of which could be to help us find scum. I do realize however that it was distracting
#205: I didn't really want to "prove it to the infidels doubtful" but I just pointed out, along with everyone else (yes, I was bandwagoning here) that if Eddy is the voice of the mod and any information from Eddy can be considered as coming from C_P proves his innocence.
#276: Good points on the pbpa. I can't really refute them. Although it seemed serious at the time.
Quote from Puzzle »
Avabob :
#395 : Tries hard to keep the Masons from being accepted confirmed with weak arguments (your aggressivity is scummy, "I don't trust this at all",...). That comes after BlueSoul casting his own doubts and in a context where it would make 3 confirmed townies (with Kenji). Here's news : a fake Mason claim is suicidal most of the time but particularly on day 1 for scums. One goes down for whatever reason (SK, etc...) and the other one is bust. Not a chance on Earth they are lying, particularly seeing how they confirmed each other quickly. That would mean they would have planned this at night 0 (having time to realize it would be a stupid bet) and even in this highly unlikely possibility, they would have tried to come out better : not claiming so early, in order to frame more easily townies voting for them.
The "fine, your attack on Twomz was justified but that doesn't excuse the rest" gives me weird vibes : what rest are you talking about ? Please give examples of his "his other random suspicion without reason".
Speaking at Twomz : FOS for fishing but "you are slartibartfast. We can't lynch you. You are obviously town." : and masons are not ??!!
Finally, lectures BlueSoul that we should lynch scum, not townies, but does it in a paternalist way : link ?
"And the mods will stick to flavor." : man, oh man. If you really believe that, you really, seriously, need to have a deeper look at other games.
Barns KCW to FOS Beaker. Leeloo muuuultipaaaass.
1st: I thought C_P would stick to flavor. But I obviously have not played enough mafia to really know.
2nd: I think your point about mafia claiming masons is a good one. It is likely that they wouldn't. That said, overaggressiveness is generally a scum tell (I think) and holmes seemed to be very aggressive without enough reason
3rd: You asked me for posts where he was casting random suspicion without reason. They weren't really random, but I use that word a lot. I was trying to say that he was voting a lot without sufficient reason to back him up. You can see some of these posts in the pbpa that I did, and the next part of this post. However, you asked for specific examples, so here goes: 150, 234, 242 (this is just casting suspicion, not a vote) and others that I'm not willing to look for right now. Those were just the ones mentioned in my pbpa, but if you look at TWS's you can see the same thing, and if you scan the thread with this in mind, it helps.
Quote from Puzzle »
Please explain more clearly what you mean here, and what my mistake is.
There was just a post that WoLG made on another site (I think it may have been his first) and linked to it in a post. I answered it in one of my posts, and Kenji imported it into the thread by quoting it.. I think you just missed it, that's all. You were confused when he voted me, that's where.
Quote from Holmes »
Unvote;
Vote: Bluesoul
See, puzzle, this is what I was talking about. Random suspicions without supporting reasoning +Bandwagoning =scum. However, I think that it is likely that there are masons in this game (just because, and as you pointed out, it would be an enormous gambit to claim mason without any confimarion on who was in the game.) and because there have been no counterclaims, it is likely that Holmes is lying. Nevertheless, he needs to stop appearing so scummy.
Quote from Holmes »
I don't really care about Bluesoul. I want the day to friggin end. People will talk and talk and talk, but no one knows anything yet. Not until some people get lynched and other people get killed. That's the name of the game.
Endless day ones drive me nuts.
That said, I didn't even realize Diggy wasa voting for Bluesoul, which means he's less likely to be mafia just for that reason.
unvote
At a certain point it's all just hot air. Unless everyone wants to claim now.
Dammit. See, this looks really scummy too.
1st: The reason for his vote was simply for the day to end. Not a townie-ish move
2nd: The thing with Diggy is nearing WIFOM territory. He could be mafia destancing himself from his mafia buddy, etc… And we don't even know if bluesoul is mafia yet (although he has exhibited many scummy tells) so Diggy is not cleared by this.
3rd: Mass claims = very bad. That's all I need to say here.
You are town. You are a mason. So stop acting so suspicious.
Onto the current drama: Well, both Bluesoul and Machin Shin seem to be fairly suspicious. Bluesoul's recent attitude makes me inclined to think he is more scummy, but Machin Shin is also high on my scumdar. I don't have much to say here.
Because I forget who I am voting for, unvote.
Hope that helps. Ask me for clarification, if you need it.
Thanks Bluesoul. I'll Unvote. Now I don't know what to do. I refuse the other option Puzzle gave. I don't want to lynch Machin Shin. Panic, I'm leaderless. In that case, back to Vote:Twomz.
This is not sarcastic. I really do think Twomz is scum. He fished, and wheedled for information, going so far as for truth or dare. He made a strange claim, that to me seems like a mafia cop. Useful in that it punishes the town for revealing too much information, but in most cases is less powerful than a town investigator. Then he stopped contributing in his normal way once the pressure was off. It's not an open and shut case, but what is on day one? I think he's lying. I want to lynch him.
@Bluesoul: I think you're scum, but do you actually understand why claiming your role would've been bad, if you were town? And, if you are town, why what you did makes me think you're scum.
The pressure was already on me so no, I don't see what you're saying. And explain to me how my role could be a scum role. Scum roles don't usually involve sharing, especially with anyone in the game.
@A Hope: You've obviously never played mafia w/ me before :P.
@Az:
Quote from Az »
Is anyone else disturbed/worried by the number of quick, explantionless votes we have building up?
Not really, you get used to it playing on mafiascum... (if you play games w/ the likes of Fritz and BJ, i believe someone talked about it earlier in the game...)
Nope, but I'm not trying to kill anyone at the moment.
What exactly about the case against Bluesoul stands out to you, in particular?
Touche... As for your question, it is the way he seemed to handle his role... his brilliant plan was a dud, and I believe he would have seen that. If you want more, look at my pbp.
@ Bluesoul: No, no, you claimed at the right time with pressure on you, thats perfectly fine. My question was whether or not you understand why, assuming you're townie, claiming your role at the end of day 1, as you said you would have, would be bad. As for your role, yes, that is a point in your favor. However, you are not cleared because of it, and you're behavior has been extremely scummy. I'm not accepting sharing roles as completely townie, because who knows what CP thought up.
Sadly, thoughts of killing Bluesoul so someone else can get the free 1 shot investigation floats threw my head :-/. The likely hood that a mafiaso would kill Bluesoul is so incredibly low right now... that i'm 99.99% sure it won't happen. Which kinda sucks, because we won't be able to use the ablility now. *sigh* Next time someone gets a role like Bluesouls... don't say you have it. Please. No matter how much i pressure you to.
A little side note, Tuesday and Wednesday I will have limited to no internet access, due to a school activity taking me out of town. I'll post when I get back.
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Touche... As for your question, it is the way he seemed to handle his role... his brilliant plan was a dud, and I believe he would have seen that. If you want more, look at my pbp.
@ Bluesoul: No, no, you claimed at the right time with pressure on you, thats perfectly fine. My question was whether or not you understand why, assuming you're townie, claiming your role at the end of day 1, as you said you would have, would be bad. As for your role, yes, that is a point in your favor. However, you are not cleared because of it, and you're behavior has been extremely scummy. I'm not accepting sharing roles as completely townie, because who knows what CP thought up.
Really you're just going to have to file it under "Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time". I didn't expect it to backfire anywhere like it did.
Not really, you get used to it playing on mafiascum... (if you play games w/ the likes of Fritz and BJ, i believe someone talked about it earlier in the game...)
I'm well aware of the playing style on mafiascum, and I'm not prepared to tolerate its spread onto this site. As townies we can either provide explanations, or fall under suspicion, and risk lynching.
No pro-town player should have any incentive to cut off the town's flow of information. Only the mafia.
@Bluesoul: You confirmed that Twomz targeted you, correct?
@Bluesoul: You confirmed that Twomz targeted you, correct?
Not at all, I was never made aware of it by c_p. Twomz said his ability doesn't target, he makes an educated guess to the mod and the mod replies with...wait a second, he replies with whether or not the person in question used their night choice? I couldn't have gotten that right, could I? Twomz could be gambiting and trying to clear me to save his own butt later on but why would someone try and do that?
That's really suspicious, actually. My brain must be turned off or something.
Tomorrow, we may want to have one of the masons determine someone for him to "verify", and that person can choose whether or not to claim their true role, or something else.
Alternately, we could ask for a volunteer, to avoid revealing a power role. It risks revealing some info, but it gives us a chance to partially confirm him, or net us a scum.
Tomorrow, we may want to have one of the masons determine someone for him to "verify", and that person can choose whether or not to claim their true role, or something else.
Alternately, we could ask for a volunteer, to avoid revealing a power role. It risks revealing some info, but it gives us a chance to partially confirm him, or net us a scum.
Mass claiming is a bad plan. I am totally against the idea. All a mass claim will do is drag every power role we have into the open. We've had enough damage today, and I would think Puzzle would know better.
I'm well aware of the playing style on mafiascum, and I'm not prepared to tolerate its spread onto this site. As townies we can either provide explanations, or fall under suspicion, and risk lynching.
Do I have to say I don't agree with that?
Sometimes not giving a long-winded "explanation" for a vote can tell you more, can get better reactions, and reveal more scums. You guys just aren't giving it a chance. Everyone all so "oh my god, he didn't explain his vote! He's scumzorrrrr!!!!!" I think it's the mafia who do that the most though--easy way for them to try to blend in and sound "townish."
Also, Puzzle, when I said everybody could claim, I was being sarcastic.
I wasn't actually doing that with the Bluesould vote though. That was just to end the day. Seemed like it was going to happen anyway. But now it doesn't and that's okay, he wasn't my most suspicious.
DIggy: if you can "confirm" yourself, is there a reason not too?
@Kenji- Twomz no longer gets confirmation on whether or not he guesses correctly.
We've had a few people claim so far today, but no cop and no doc have done so. I am of the mind that its bad enough we narrowed the list of people who could have a power role down as far as we did. I don't think there is any reason to go further with it.
@Puzzle: I've never actually done a mass claim, so I really can't say I'd give good advice. However, from what I've been seeing (and flavor-wise) it seems to me that its very unlikely for anyone to be a vanilla. So, if we do go for it, we will expose cops and docs and the like, but (assuming) everyone has an ability, then we'll lose an ability person whenever there is a kill anyway. So... I guess I'm slightly inclined to say that it might help more than hurt.
A mass claim seems bad, but I could confirm both myself and someone else as town if Zaphod Beeblebrox said who he was. If I know who that is, the town will get a big unspecified gain.
PPE: hmmmm, maybe that's not such a good idea, as he could still be mafia, making it very very bad. Hmmmmmm.
question, why does everyone think that the fishbowl thing couldnt be scum?
when bluesoul dies, if he's scum, he'll pass it on to a fellow scum, assisting them after bluesoul's death
My apologies for lurking for awhile
I was doing multiple mafias with a smile.
That one is on hiatus for now
So speaking here my time will allow.
I am against a massive claim
It reveals much more than just a name.
People can lie and people can cheat
and to honesty this would be a defeat.
If you want my vote towards a mass-claim I say no.
But maybe others might say "no."
As for scum, I have my suspicions
as to people's alignments and missions.
Diggy seemed the most like scum
until to the spotlight did he succumb.
I want to know his ability
especially if it involves hostility.
Sometimes not giving a long-winded "explanation" for a vote can tell you more, can get better reactions, and reveal more scums. You guys just aren't giving it a chance. Everyone all so "oh my god, he didn't explain his vote! He's scumzorrrrr!!!!!" I think it's the mafia who do that the most though--easy way for them to try to blend in and sound "townish."
Also, Puzzle, when I said everybody could claim, I was being sarcastic.
Sure, the mafia can say that: and by doing so, it's another reaction that we can analyze.
Lets follow your approach to it conclusion, and apply it to the group as a whole. Let's imagine that everyone in the town did nothing besides vote without providing explanation. We would be reduced from playing a game of intelligent deduction to a game of random chance. There would be nothing to analyze, no way for the town to distinguish between one another. The mafia would win almost every time. Without information, the town will perish.
That's the danger we face if we allow people to vote without explanation: not only the death of the town in the particular game you're playing it, but also the death of the game of mafia itself. Or if not the death, then the severe damaging of its health. The analysis of one another's reactions and reasoning is the life-blood of the game.
For that reason, I will continue to pressure and/or lynch players who refuse to contribute to the town by offering information. If we fail to do so, then the town will lose from being unable to distinguish its own members from the mafia, and eventually the viability and enjoyability of the game will suffer.
So no, I don't think it's too much to ask that you post your voting rationale, and that we expect others to do the same. Our survival as a town depends upon it.
question, why does everyone think that the fishbowl thing couldnt be scum?
when bluesoul dies, if he's scum, he'll pass it on to a fellow scum, assisting them after bluesoul's death
So we do know what bluesoul's role is. However, his role in no way makes me think he isn't scum.... I'd be alright with a Machin Shin lynch, though I'm still convinced bluesoul is the better target on ability/overall scumminess/refusal to play.
I agree with what comes from this line, but I'm just wondering about your logic behind this... I could see this on a mafioso as well. Maybe SK, but don't they just normally have the kill ability?
Huh? How is this ability purely townie? He has a one-shot roleblock on somebody who targets him. That's assuming Twomz is not scum trying to clear him, of course. Now don't you think that if Bluesoul was scum, he would know the alignment of somebody who targets him? I just keep coming back to the fact that he claimed, for almost no reason, to have an ability that is useless after he has claimed it, except to prevent himself from being investigated with that whole "no townies target me and we'll lynch anybody that does" thing.
Vote: Bluesoul
4 Machin Shin - (draygn_mage, Kenji, Chimpanzee, kingcobweb)
1 Twomz - (armlx)
8 bluesoul - (That Which Squeaks, Machin Shin, Jobie, Peregrine_Falcon, Diggy, Beaker, Abandon Hope, Holmes)
2 Beaker - (avabob, bluesoul)
1 Puzzle - (Azrael)
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I believe he verifies their identity, not their alignment.
Therefore, it's a protective/information role, the kind of thing you expect to see on townies more often than mafia.
Alternately, you could interpret it as a type of godfather ability, that allows the mafia to identify targeting roles, and block cop investigations. But when you compare mafia abilities to townie abilities, generally mafia abilities are a little vamped up in order to compensate for being outnumbered. So you'd expect them to be able to block at least two or three times, if it was a mafia godfather role. There's a much wider range of roles that mafia have to be afraid of, compared to townies.
However, townies typically have relatively less to fear from being targeted. They would only need to use that ability if they were being targeted by someone they suspected as mafia. Thus, one use would be the amount well-suited to a townie application of the ability.
Mind providing some explanation with that vote?
From what I've seen Machin Shin has committed a few scum tells and has followed that up with what seems like a subliminal vanilla claim in a game where I highly doubt there are (m)any vanillas at all.
Between that and the number of people that are all for a bluesoul lynch, I would rather lynch Machin Shin today.
vote stands
I have done my best to address your concerns about my "scum tells." If you're not happy with some of my explanations/answers, could you point out the problems? As for the vanilla thing, I did no such thing at all, and I've already said such.
That is what I said, and taken in context, it clearly means what I meant it to mean. That is, I'm saying that since you rarely see roles that can do things during the day, the only tool available is a vote. I even said much the same thing once before, making sure to explain that. I felt I could leave that part off this time, but I guess not if people are going to purposely mis-interpret what I said.
Endless day ones drive me nuts.
That said, I didn't even realize Diggy wasa voting for Bluesoul, which means he's less likely to be mafia just for that reason.
unvote
At a certain point it's all just hot air. Unless everyone wants to claim now.
Y'all are concentrating on the "block" part of Bluesouls ability, which basically makes him an untargetable townie... but, if he dies, he gets to "pass his fishbowl." Now, the only alignment i could see passing a fishbowl to another person is town. It's probably public, thus it couldn't possible be a mafia ability... and no neutral role would be set up to pass their ability to a town/mafiaso after they die. So, through basic logic, Bluesoul must be town.
I also agree that
mostall the people on the Bluesoul wagon are either frustrated w/ him, or are mafiasos that have figured out that they can't NK him so they're trying as hard as they can to get him lynched. I'd say that 2 or 3 of the strongest supporters of Bluesouls lynch are mafia, and want to get rid of an unknightkillable (and untargetable) townie.@No Hope: Just because my play style is different from what you're used to doesn't mean i'm scum. If you have reasons besides crap logic (and the fact that i've been fishing and my posting style is always scummy) go ahead and post them so i can respond. The fact that you can't get a bandwagon going on me today is probably a good indicator that the case you have against me isn't very good, and i don't think you'll be able to get one going tomorrow either.
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This is a very valid point, but I'm also not sure what to think of it with Holmes' unvote... other than and FOS: Holmes. My vote stands for now, but I'll consider this deeply.
Skim rereading. Be back to comment in 20 minutes or so.
Claimed masons are not good for lynching.
The passing-the-fishbowl bit definitely makes bluesoul a bad lynch for today. That just plain wouldn't appear on an SK or a mafioso. I'm sticking with M_S.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Good call, Twomz. I missed that the first time around.
Game-wise, because a mafia blocking an investigation, vigilante etc. nightchoice and knowing who it is would be an extremely overpowered role for a scum to have. Not only do they block an attempted whatever, they also know the name of someone with (more likely than not) a power role. Hooray! Oh, wait, that would be really bad for the town.
Flavor-wise, the character is an isolationist who has shunned all civilization, living hermit-like. Does this sound like a mafia, whose goal is to steal the heart of gold? Not to me. To me it sounds like a neutral whose win condition is to survive until the end of the game (which is reflected by a comment made by him saying that his goal is to survive). Personally, I'd rather lynch someone who could be scum than someone we know is neutral.
Honestly, as I've said before, I think lynching Bluesoul is a really really bad idea. He's a new player who got angry at all the people attacking him. So lay off him, and let's lynch Machin or Beaker.
Are you nuts? He's a mason.
There's no rush to push this to a conclusion, and a few other leads are beginning to surface.
That said, if you believe in the Hornet's Nest Theory, which practices posting for emotion and seeing what kind of hornets come flying out, I think that a lot of people overextended just a bit regarding me, some of which are mafia.
I will explain my role once again, completely. I'm Wonko the Sane. I have a fishbowl full of wheat germ, and when someone targets me, I can choose to throw my wheat germ at them, causing them to get disgusted and leave. When I use this (one-shot) ability, I'll simply have a fishbowl, which I'll pass on to someone when I die.
After asking for role clarification from c_p, I learned that I am in fact on the town's side, my WC is that I win when all the scum are dead (it sounds obvious but he forgot both on the first PM), the ability is voluntary, I can use the ability during the day, and each person that receives the fishbowl will get one use, after which they'll have to pass it upon death and it'll refill. The use will differ from person to person; mine was a roleblock/prevention.
The roleblock may be good on an SK but the fact that I have to pass the bowl on upon death is clearly contradictory to an SK's goal.
I'd like to think I can still help the town but as it stands I feel like I'm just gonna get shouted down and get pissed off again.
My apologies to everyone.
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This actually changes your role rather significantly-the allowance for the ability to be used over and over again seems very townie, very "good for everyone" sort of thing.
unvote Bluesoul.
Azrael, would you care to share your thoughts upon these leads you keep bringing up that are coming out of the woodwork as we speak, or are you refering to MS, Diggy, Beaker and their respective sins of the past?
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@Jobie, I assume it'll work for them the same as it'll work for anyone else.
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The leads are there for the taking, if anyone cares to look for them.
At the moment, I'm content simply to state that they're there. The latest two bandwagons are teeming with them.
@Bluesoul: I think you're scum, but do you actually understand why claiming your role would've been bad, if you were town? And, if you are town, why what you did makes me think you're scum.
Nope, but I'm not trying to kill anyone at the moment.
What exactly about the case against Bluesoul stands out to you, in particular?
1st: I'm not a 2-personality role
2nd: My argument was convoluted, but I think it still stands. There is no reason for 2-roles on anyone, because it could all be done with one role. It is simply not needed. However, it is possible that C_P still kept in double roles just to mess with us, but I doubt it.
3rd: My suspicion of Holmes was a hunch. Later, I did the pbpa to give myself actual reason and convince myself he was scum. Since then, he has claimed mason.
#202: I just thought that that flavor had very interesting possibilities, one of which could be to help us find scum. I do realize however that it was distracting
#205: I didn't really want to "prove it to the infidels doubtful" but I just pointed out, along with everyone else (yes, I was bandwagoning here) that if Eddy is the voice of the mod and any information from Eddy can be considered as coming from C_P proves his innocence.
#276: Good points on the pbpa. I can't really refute them. Although it seemed serious at the time.
1st: I thought C_P would stick to flavor. But I obviously have not played enough mafia to really know.
2nd: I think your point about mafia claiming masons is a good one. It is likely that they wouldn't. That said, overaggressiveness is generally a scum tell (I think) and holmes seemed to be very aggressive without enough reason
3rd: You asked me for posts where he was casting random suspicion without reason. They weren't really random, but I use that word a lot. I was trying to say that he was voting a lot without sufficient reason to back him up. You can see some of these posts in the pbpa that I did, and the next part of this post. However, you asked for specific examples, so here goes: 150, 234, 242 (this is just casting suspicion, not a vote) and others that I'm not willing to look for right now. Those were just the ones mentioned in my pbpa, but if you look at TWS's you can see the same thing, and if you scan the thread with this in mind, it helps.
There was just a post that WoLG made on another site (I think it may have been his first) and linked to it in a post. I answered it in one of my posts, and Kenji imported it into the thread by quoting it.. I think you just missed it, that's all. You were confused when he voted me, that's where.
See, puzzle, this is what I was talking about. Random suspicions without supporting reasoning +Bandwagoning =scum. However, I think that it is likely that there are masons in this game (just because, and as you pointed out, it would be an enormous gambit to claim mason without any confimarion on who was in the game.) and because there have been no counterclaims, it is likely that Holmes is lying. Nevertheless, he needs to stop appearing so scummy.
Dammit. See, this looks really scummy too.
1st: The reason for his vote was simply for the day to end. Not a townie-ish move
2nd: The thing with Diggy is nearing WIFOM territory. He could be mafia destancing himself from his mafia buddy, etc… And we don't even know if bluesoul is mafia yet (although he has exhibited many scummy tells) so Diggy is not cleared by this.
3rd: Mass claims = very bad. That's all I need to say here.
You are town. You are a mason. So stop acting so suspicious.
Onto the current drama: Well, both Bluesoul and Machin Shin seem to be fairly suspicious. Bluesoul's recent attitude makes me inclined to think he is more scummy, but Machin Shin is also high on my scumdar. I don't have much to say here.
Because I forget who I am voting for, unvote.
Hope that helps. Ask me for clarification, if you need it.
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This is not sarcastic. I really do think Twomz is scum. He fished, and wheedled for information, going so far as for truth or dare. He made a strange claim, that to me seems like a mafia cop. Useful in that it punishes the town for revealing too much information, but in most cases is less powerful than a town investigator. Then he stopped contributing in his normal way once the pressure was off. It's not an open and shut case, but what is on day one? I think he's lying. I want to lynch him.
The pressure was already on me so no, I don't see what you're saying. And explain to me how my role could be a scum role. Scum roles don't usually involve sharing, especially with anyone in the game.
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@Az:
Not really, you get used to it playing on mafiascum... (if you play games w/ the likes of Fritz and BJ, i believe someone talked about it earlier in the game...)
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Touche... As for your question, it is the way he seemed to handle his role... his brilliant plan was a dud, and I believe he would have seen that. If you want more, look at my pbp.
@ Bluesoul: No, no, you claimed at the right time with pressure on you, thats perfectly fine. My question was whether or not you understand why, assuming you're townie, claiming your role at the end of day 1, as you said you would have, would be bad. As for your role, yes, that is a point in your favor. However, you are not cleared because of it, and you're behavior has been extremely scummy. I'm not accepting sharing roles as completely townie, because who knows what CP thought up.
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Really you're just going to have to file it under "Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time". I didn't expect it to backfire anywhere like it did.
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I'm well aware of the playing style on mafiascum, and I'm not prepared to tolerate its spread onto this site. As townies we can either provide explanations, or fall under suspicion, and risk lynching.
No pro-town player should have any incentive to cut off the town's flow of information. Only the mafia.
@Bluesoul: You confirmed that Twomz targeted you, correct?
Not at all, I was never made aware of it by c_p. Twomz said his ability doesn't target, he makes an educated guess to the mod and the mod replies with...wait a second, he replies with whether or not the person in question used their night choice? I couldn't have gotten that right, could I? Twomz could be gambiting and trying to clear me to save his own butt later on but why would someone try and do that?
That's really suspicious, actually. My brain must be turned off or something.
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Tomorrow, we may want to have one of the masons determine someone for him to "verify", and that person can choose whether or not to claim their true role, or something else.
Alternately, we could ask for a volunteer, to avoid revealing a power role. It risks revealing some info, but it gives us a chance to partially confirm him, or net us a scum.
Could you explain this a little more? I'm lost
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Do I have to say I don't agree with that?
Sometimes not giving a long-winded "explanation" for a vote can tell you more, can get better reactions, and reveal more scums. You guys just aren't giving it a chance. Everyone all so "oh my god, he didn't explain his vote! He's scumzorrrrr!!!!!" I think it's the mafia who do that the most though--easy way for them to try to blend in and sound "townish."
Also, Puzzle, when I said everybody could claim, I was being sarcastic.
DIggy: if you can "confirm" yourself, is there a reason not too?
We've had a few people claim so far today, but no cop and no doc have done so. I am of the mind that its bad enough we narrowed the list of people who could have a power role down as far as we did. I don't think there is any reason to go further with it.
PPE: hmmmm, maybe that's not such a good idea, as he could still be mafia, making it very very bad. Hmmmmmm.
when bluesoul dies, if he's scum, he'll pass it on to a fellow scum, assisting them after bluesoul's death
I was doing multiple mafias with a smile.
That one is on hiatus for now
So speaking here my time will allow.
I am against a massive claim
It reveals much more than just a name.
People can lie and people can cheat
and to honesty this would be a defeat.
If you want my vote towards a mass-claim I say no.
But maybe others might say "no."
As for scum, I have my suspicions
as to people's alignments and missions.
Diggy seemed the most like scum
until to the spotlight did he succumb.
I want to know his ability
especially if it involves hostility.
BTW, Unvote. Skim re-reading = oops voting for mason = bad times.
Sure, the mafia can say that: and by doing so, it's another reaction that we can analyze.
Lets follow your approach to it conclusion, and apply it to the group as a whole. Let's imagine that everyone in the town did nothing besides vote without providing explanation. We would be reduced from playing a game of intelligent deduction to a game of random chance. There would be nothing to analyze, no way for the town to distinguish between one another. The mafia would win almost every time. Without information, the town will perish.
That's the danger we face if we allow people to vote without explanation: not only the death of the town in the particular game you're playing it, but also the death of the game of mafia itself. Or if not the death, then the severe damaging of its health. The analysis of one another's reactions and reasoning is the life-blood of the game.
For that reason, I will continue to pressure and/or lynch players who refuse to contribute to the town by offering information. If we fail to do so, then the town will lose from being unable to distinguish its own members from the mafia, and eventually the viability and enjoyability of the game will suffer.
So no, I don't think it's too much to ask that you post your voting rationale, and that we expect others to do the same. Our survival as a town depends upon it.
Your theory has been noted.
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